First oscilloscope for hobbyist

[Powernun]

Hi again,

This time, I am in the market to buy my first oscilloscope as a hobbyist. I am in the UK looking at stores in Europe. I work mainly on Arduino type projects (especially IoT). I am looking for:

• Budget: £350 - £550
• Sampling rate: At least 1GSa/s for single channel
• Bandwidth: At least 100MHz
• Channels: At least 4
• Record length: At least 10Mpts for single channel
• Segmented memory: I reckon I don't need it if I have enough record length (at least 20Mpts)
• An intuitive and easy to use interface. Touchscreen combination with knobs and mouse support would be best, otherwise an intuitive "knob" interface.
• Compact in size. In general, I prefer wider (or taller) than deeper equipment due to my limited space.
• Not a loud fan (but I have no problem fixing that if needed)
• Network connectivity (LAN, WiFi) is preferable over USB
• Don't need integrated bus decoding and/or MSO functionality because I have a separate Logic Analyser, but would be nice to have
• Don't need integrated Signal/Waveform Generator because I am planning to purchase a separate one

Here is the shortlist I came up with (in the pros and cons I am highlighting the differences between the products):

1. RIGOL DS1054Z (hacked to 100MHz) - £370

+ Cheap
+ Comes with all software options unlocked

- Low Waveform Capture Rate of 30,000wfms/s
- Needs to be hacked for 100MHz
- A bit old and a tiny bit sluggish according to reviews
- The fan is a bit loud

2. Siglent SDS1104X-E - £430

+ I have a Siglent power supply, so I have used the brand before and trust them
+ Option for Signal Generator and/or MSO capabilities (I don't care much about this though)
+ Doesn't need to be hacked for 100MHz but can be for 200MHz
+ Can do 1 GSa/s for 2 channels
+ Highest Waveform Capture Rate of 100,000wfms/s - 400,000wfms/s
+ Embedded web server means I don't need to use additional software to control remotely

- Many options are locked but can be hacked
- The fan is a bit loud

3. GW INSTEK GDS-1054B (hacked to 100MHz) - £440

+ Separate knobs for each channel

- Needs to be hacked for 100MHz
- Too big for my workspace

4. Micsig STO1104C - £485 or £545 with battery plus other accessories

+ Form factor is ideal for my bench
+ Touch screen with knobs is the perfect interface for me (also mouse support)
+ Android system with very high potential of expansion in functionality
+ Doesn't need to be hacked for 100MHz
+ Much easier to use picture functionality and has video recording
+ Battery operable (don't need this or any portability for that matter but nice to have)
+ WiFi connectivity

- External power supply
- Has external control support, but is through a software (I prefer the Siglent webserver)

All in all, I am leaning almost entirely towards the Micsig. Even though it does not have the best specs for the money (I believe the Siglent does), as a first-time oscilloscope user, I can see really like using the Micsig over more traditional scopes and also the Android system it has tells me that there is a very good future for it. Even though it is the most expensive, the difference is small enough for me to justify it.

Any thoughts? Any scopes I missed that could fit the bill well? Perhaps some specs I overlooked that matter much more than I thought?

TL;DR: Rigol is cheapest, GW Instek is too big, Siglent has the best specs, Micsig has good specs with my favourite form factor and interface with decent specs so I am leaning towards it.

[stafil]

Sounds like you have everything covered

Just a couple of things about the Rigol. It's ridiculously easy to hack. You will indeed need to replace the fan, but it's nothing difficult.

[TK]

Check again the price of GDS1054B. It is $310 in the US

[nctnico]

Check again the price of GDS1054B. It is $310 in the US

The OP is in Europe and over here the GDS1054B costs a lot more. Perhaps a better price can be found but shipping it from overseas will add shipping & customs costs and VAT.

To the OP: how important is remote operation for you? Otherwise it seems the MicSig is a good fit.

[themadhippy]

Check again the price of GDS1054B. It is $310 in the US

you obviously dont know how to convert us dollars into pounds sterling,it goes like this
1)swap dollar sign to  pound sign
2)Add a bit   to cover costs
3)Add shipping costs
4)Add vat
5)Add a bit more for luck

[Powernun]

Sounds like you have everything covered

Just a couple of things about the Rigol. It's ridiculously easy to hack. You will indeed need to replace the fan, but it's nothing difficult.

I've seen tutorials on how to hack it and replace the fan, I don't mind the difficulty of it but more voiding my warranty. I believe (but I'm not sure) that in Europe the warranty void stickers can actually void your warranty if tampered with contrary to the US.

Check again the price of GDS1054B. It is $310 in the US

Unfortunately in Europe it is much more expensive (I was surprised as well!). I should also note that all of the prices I listed are the best prices I could find including tax plus shipping to the UK from stores within the European Union.

Check again the price of GDS1054B. It is $310 in the US

The OP is in Europe and over here the GDS1054B costs a lot more. Perhaps a better price can be found but shipping it from overseas will add shipping & customs costs and VAT.

To the OP: how important is remote operation for you? Otherwise it seems the MicSig is a good fit.

I like the remote operation as an option but it is something I would probably use 10% of the time. So the touchscreen functionality outweighs the webserver for me.

I should probably also mention that the main reason I prefer a webserver over installed software is because the software can get outdated in terms of compatibility (the webserver much less likely) and I'm also running Linux whereas most software is Windows-based.

[TK]

Check again the price of GDS1054B. It is $310 in the US

you obviously dont know how to convert us dollars into pounds sterling,it goes like this
1)swap dollar sign to  pound sign
2)Add a bit   to cover costs
3)Add shipping costs
4)Add vat
5)Add a bit more for luck

It looks like the points 2 and 5 are higher for the GW Instek than the Rigol

[RoGeorge]

Without any doubt the best choice out of all listed :
2. Siglent SDS1104X-E - £430

[Powernun]

Without any doubt the best choice out of all listed :
2. Siglent SDS1104X-E - £430

Best as in raw performance? I wouldn't disagree with that but at least right now I value usability more than performance. Of course it's not out of the question that I would upgrade down the line if I saw the Micsig not being enough, but I don't see that time coming any time soon (I don't think so at least). Thank you for your input anyway!

[appsman]

I just got the Micsig STO1104C and, so far, I like it. As you said, the form factor is outstanding. The thing is only 2" thick. At first I thought I would have to just tolerate the probe BNCs sticking out the top, but now I think i prefer it. I like the big screen and moving waveforms and trigger by touch is cool, however I wish some other functions like trigger coupling and edge selection, were more up front. One thing I like a lot, that was not on the Rigol I have used, is trigger-referenced time base - so that when you change timebase, the waveform expands around the trigger point rather than the center of the screen. This is a menu choice in Micsig. Maybe it's also a choice in Rogol, but I couldn't find it in the scope I used (not mine) so when I expanded the timebase on the Rigol, the trigger point annoyingly moves off the screen edge.

I'm not a fan of Micsig having a 12V wall wart instead of a line plug and this also means that there is no "line trigger", which I've used in the past to check if noise is line related, but it's not a show stopper. The wall wart ugliness is mitigated somewhat by the battery. If I have to grab the scope for use elsewhere in the shop, I can leave the wall wart in place and go cordless (good for about 3 hours).

I don't think the trigger is a solid as my old Tek (is anything?). I no longer have the Rigol to compare to so I can't really rate its triggering against other budget scopes.

One scope that looks really interesting is the Keysight (formerly HP then Agilent) EDUX1052A. which is 2 channel 50MHz (maybe hackable up?) for $480. The big question is if this is REALLY a more solid scope, or no better than Siglent with a Keysight label. If the mechanicals and triggering are more solid than budget Chinese, and UI is polished, the extra $100 would probably be worth it, even for 50MHz. I'd really like to see the EDUX1052A compared to the other scopes on your list.

[2N3055]

Read the EDUX1052A datasheet and see for yourself. It is such a basic scope with nothing on it.
It would be good buy for 200 USD.

And unlike Rigol that unlocks with with a code, or a Siglent and Micsig and GW instek that come unlocked by default, you need to void the warranty (you need to solder on the board) and load hacked firmware to enable some features. And there is a member here that damaged his scope doing it.  Look elsewhere.

[TK]

Read the EDUX1052A datasheet and see for yourself. It is such a basic scope with nothing on it.
It would be good buy for 200 USD.

And unlike Rigol that unlocks with with a code, or a Siglent and Micsig and GW instek that come unlocked by default, you need to void the warranty (you need to solder on the board) and load hacked firmware to enable some features. And there is a member here that damaged his scope doing it.  Look elsewhere.

I am the member who broke the EDUX1052A and let me clarify what happened. The EDUX to DSOX hack is easy, just swap 2 resistors and add around 10 missing components in the external input section (digital input). It worked just great and this hack gives you 2Mpts, 200,000wfm/s, segmented memory. Serial decoding is now included standard on the newer production batch that started March 2020. Ibroke rhe scope while adding the wavegen generator components. It is a huge mod requiring the soldering of lots of SMD components. But I still have some hope, I think the problem might have been the no-clean flux, lots of flux. I learned that no-clean means can’t clean. I burshed it off with IPA and brush but still remained on the PCB. I tried soldering 2 small boards with the same flux and they ended up broken as well, so I strongly suspect the flux being the culprit. Will try soaking the EDUX PCB into a no-clean flux cleaner that the same manufacturer recommends. Nice marketing, selling a no-clean flux then the cleaner for the no-clean...

[Elasia]

Read the EDUX1052A datasheet and see for yourself. It is such a basic scope with nothing on it.
It would be good buy for 200 USD.

And unlike Rigol that unlocks with with a code, or a Siglent and Micsig and GW instek that come unlocked by default, you need to void the warranty (you need to solder on the board) and load hacked firmware to enable some features. And there is a member here that damaged his scope doing it.  Look elsewhere.

I am the member who broke the EDUX1052A and let me clarify what happened. The EDUX to DSOX hack is easy, just swap 2 resistors and add around 10 missing components in the external input section (digital input). It worked just great and this hack gives you 2Mpts, 200,000wfm/s, segmented memory. Serial decoding is now included standard on the newer production batch that started March 2020. Ibroke rhe scope while adding the wavegen generator components. It is a huge mod requiring the soldering of lots of SMD components. But I still have some hope, I think the problem might have been the no-clean flux, lots of flux. I learned that no-clean means can’t clean. I burshed it off with IPA and brush but still remained on the PCB. I tried soldering 2 small boards with the same flux and they ended up broken as well, so I strongly suspect the flux being the culprit. Will try soaking the EDUX PCB into a no-clean flux cleaner that the same manufacturer recommends. Nice marketing, selling a no-clean flux then the cleaner for the no-clean...

I switched to amtech in a giant syringe and never looked back... put a big glob on and it doesnt matter.. just wash it off with iso.. i also cheat and put it into an ultrasonic that i also have a meatloaf glassware inside of it with a pool of 99.9% iso, and yes i do have a special fire extinguisher near by... not that crazy

[rstofer]

Sounds like you have everything covered

Just a couple of things about the Rigol. It's ridiculously easy to hack. You will indeed need to replace the fan, but it's nothing difficult.

And probably the Select rotary encoder.  Details elsewhere...  An encoder with detents is a whole lot easier to use.

I cut the legs off the existing encoder and unsoldered them one at a time.  I wanted to be very careful that I didn't lift a trace.

[Powernun]

I just got the Micsig STO1104C and, so far, I like it. As you said, the form factor is outstanding. The thing is only 2" thick. At first I thought I would have to just tolerate the probe BNCs sticking out the top, but now I think i prefer it. I like the big screen and moving waveforms and trigger by touch is cool, however I wish some other functions like trigger coupling and edge selection, were more up front. One thing I like a lot, that was not on the Rigol I have used, is trigger-referenced time base - so that when you change timebase, the waveform expands around the trigger point rather than the center of the screen. This is a menu choice in Micsig. Maybe it's also a choice in Rogol, but I couldn't find it in the scope I used (not mine) so when I expanded the timebase on the Rigol, the trigger point annoyingly moves off the screen edge.

I'm not a fan of Micsig having a 12V wall wart instead of a line plug and this also means that there is no "line trigger", which I've used in the past to check if noise is line related, but it's not a show stopper. The wall wart ugliness is mitigated somewhat by the battery. If I have to grab the scope for use elsewhere in the shop, I can leave the wall wart in place and go cordless (good for about 3 hours).

I don't think the trigger is a solid as my old Tek (is anything?). I no longer have the Rigol to compare to so I can't really rate its triggering against other budget scopes.

One scope that looks really interesting is the Keysight (formerly HP then Agilent) EDUX1052A. which is 2 channel 50MHz (maybe hackable up?) for $480. The big question is if this is REALLY a more solid scope, or no better than Siglent with a Keysight label. If the mechanicals and triggering are more solid than budget Chinese, and UI is polished, the extra $100 would probably be worth it, even for 50MHz. I'd really like to see the EDUX1052A compared to the other scopes on your list.

Good to see someone that has the STO1104C that points out the flaws it might have. I am not fond of the separate 12V wall wart either but like you said since it has a battery I can just unplug it. One thing I've been wondering is, did the scope come with the Android firmware preloaded or did it come with the Linux one?

[TK]

Read the EDUX1052A datasheet and see for yourself. It is such a basic scope with nothing on it.
It would be good buy for 200 USD.

And unlike Rigol that unlocks with with a code, or a Siglent and Micsig and GW instek that come unlocked by default, you need to void the warranty (you need to solder on the board) and load hacked firmware to enable some features. And there is a member here that damaged his scope doing it.  Look elsewhere.

I am the member who broke the EDUX1052A and let me clarify what happened. The EDUX to DSOX hack is easy, just swap 2 resistors and add around 10 missing components in the external input section (digital input). It worked just great and this hack gives you 2Mpts, 200,000wfm/s, segmented memory. Serial decoding is now included standard on the newer production batch that started March 2020. Ibroke rhe scope while adding the wavegen generator components. It is a huge mod requiring the soldering of lots of SMD components. But I still have some hope, I think the problem might have been the no-clean flux, lots of flux. I learned that no-clean means can’t clean. I burshed it off with IPA and brush but still remained on the PCB. I tried soldering 2 small boards with the same flux and they ended up broken as well, so I strongly suspect the flux being the culprit. Will try soaking the EDUX PCB into a no-clean flux cleaner that the same manufacturer recommends. Nice marketing, selling a no-clean flux then the cleaner for the no-clean...

I switched to amtech in a giant syringe and never looked back... put a big glob on and it doesnt matter.. just wash it off with iso.. i also cheat and put it into an ultrasonic that i also have a meatloaf glassware inside of it with a pool of 99.9% iso, and yes i do have a special fire extinguisher near by... not that crazy

I am using MG Chemical... It is horrible.  I added some in a test PCB, soldered with a heat gun... PCB was not working, so I removed the chip and found a ton of flux under the component.  Re-heated and cleaned with alcohol, resoldered and it is working now, so it was not the component that got damaged due to heat, it was really the no-clean flux!  I am staying away from MG Chemical...

[gfmucci]

Hi again,

This time, I am in the market to buy my first oscilloscope as a hobbyist.

• Compact in size. In general, I prefer wider (or taller) than deeper equipment due to my limited space.

3. GW INSTEK GDS-1054B (hacked to 100MHz) - £440

+ Separate knobs for each channel
- Needs to be hacked for 100MHz
- Too big for my workspace

The size of the Instek (at least the width) is to accommodate the separate, dedicated channel controls.  So that's an unavoidable tradeoff in most instances.  One of the things that I'm considering is building a little 3 or 4 inch high shelf to put on the surface of the bench to hold the scope, and still leave bench room to have more stuff underneath the shelf/scope.  But it sounds like you are constrained more by the depth of your bench since you have greater concern for the depth dimension of the scope.  I can't imagine that the Instek is more than an inch or so deeper than the others, is it?

[Powernun]

Hi again,

This time, I am in the market to buy my first oscilloscope as a hobbyist.

• Compact in size. In general, I prefer wider (or taller) than deeper equipment due to my limited space.

3. GW INSTEK GDS-1054B (hacked to 100MHz) - £440

+ Separate knobs for each channel
- Needs to be hacked for 100MHz
- Too big for my workspace

The size of the Instek (at least the width) is to accommodate the separate, dedicated channel controls.  So that's an unavoidable tradeoff in most instances.  One of the things that I'm considering is building a little 3 or 4 inch high shelf to put on the surface of the bench to hold the scope, and still leave bench room to have more stuff underneath the shelf/scope.  But it sounds like you are constrained more by the depth of your bench since you have greater concern for the depth dimension of the scope.  I can't imagine that the Instek is more than an inch or so deeper than the others, is it?

Yes it makes sense that it would be the widest due to the dedicated per channel controls. Truth be told it would just about fit in my space but limit whatever else I can have on my bench at the same time. I would say I prefer a touchscreen compared to per channel controls.

I could definitely see the GW Instek being ideal for someone going for the best hardware interface though.

[Elasia]

I am using MG Chemical... It is horrible.  I added some in a test PCB, soldered with a heat gun... PCB was not working, so I removed the chip and found a ton of flux under the component.  Re-heated and cleaned with alcohol, resoldered and it is working now, so it was not the component that got damaged due to heat, it was really the no-clean flux!  I am staying away from MG Chemical...

Roll that beautiful flux footage..

Ignore the thumbnail

[jacklee]

RIGOL DS1054Z is OK, because it's cheap, but your budget seems could make you do more. So, why not get a better one.

I bought my MicSig TO1104 full touchable scope about 2 years ago for debugging PWM signals or catching some simple errors, touch screen could make our work more effective for sure even though I thought it is useless at first.
Anyway, I'm not have their new scope STO1104C yet, my budget limits me but I believe it won't let you down.

You may also get some information from their Youtube:
https://youtu.be/M_y8Brom708

[Powernun]

Thank you for your help everyone. I decided to go with the Micsig due to the reasons I mentioned above. The other scopes are perfectly suitable for their price points, but the Micsig just suited my requirements better.

My next purchase will be an AWG and that should make my starter lab complete (for now at least).

[jemangedeslolos]

Thank you for your help everyone. I decided to go with the Micsig due to the reasons I mentioned above. The other scopes are perfectly suitable for their price points, but the Micsig just suited my requirements better.

My next purchase will be an AWG and that should make my starter lab complete (for now at least).

 


no

[Martin72]

One scope that looks really interesting is the Keysight (formerly HP then Agilent) EDUX1052A. which is 2 channel 50MHz (maybe hackable up?) for $480. The big question is if this is REALLY a more solid scope, or no better than Siglent with a Keysight label. If the mechanicals and triggering are more solid than budget Chinese, and UI is polished, the extra $100 would probably be worth it, even for 50MHz.

First of all, the siglent is a real solid scope...
Second:
Regardless if it´s Keysight, Tektronix, Lecroy….their low end scopes are surely no "real" Keysight, Tek or Lecroy….
Once a salesman from lecroy told me, well, we must have something like this in our portfolio - If it was up to me, we wouldn't be offering this.
But we must...

[gamerpaddy]

had to make the same decision a while ago, my choice was the siglent sds1104x-e, no regret buying it so far.

Many options are locked but can be hacked

nothing is locked, except the stuff where you need the additional hardware anyways (function generator, more channel logicanalyzer, wifi*)
*wifi can be done using a small usb router on the lan port instead.   

its a bit sluggish at 14m memdepth in decoder and fft, but runs fine at 1.4m.
and a handful of more complex math operations are missing but the usual ones are included.
no other complaints so far.


the micsig tablet gets a huge plus on mobility, its also a good choice.

[Martin72]

If the micsig would have isolated channels, it would be great for our service technicians.
Not too cheap to be only a toy (although batronix claimed this under a rigol ds1000Z), not too expensive to weep in the cushion, when it got lost or damaged - just buying a new one.

[Powernun]

Thank you for your help everyone. I decided to go with the Micsig due to the reasons I mentioned above. The other scopes are perfectly suitable for their price points, but the Micsig just suited my requirements better.

My next purchase will be an AWG and that should make my starter lab complete (for now at least).

 


no

The more time I spend on this forum the more likely it is I will join Test Equipment Anonymous....

[Martin72]

I got this feeling too...
As I entered this forum, I was intererested for the rigol 5000.
Now I got a "bigger" scope than this, several currentprobes, 7 or 8 powersupplies, real good multimeter (Brymen - Don´t knew them before) and lots more…

[jemangedeslolos]

Thank you for your help everyone. I decided to go with the Micsig due to the reasons I mentioned above. The other scopes are perfectly suitable for their price points, but the Micsig just suited my requirements better.

My next purchase will be an AWG and that should make my starter lab complete (for now at least).

 


no

The more time I spend on this forum the more likely it is I will join Test Equipment Anonymous....

Yes it's very annoying, you will feel good for a day or two until you come across a situation where you will need a new probe, a low noise preamp, an electronic load, a SMU and you will spend as many nights looking at the datasheets as finding the arguments to justify the purchase 

[gfmucci]

Who was the first one on this forum to recommend the Instek to me?  Thank you!

I just ordered my Instek 1054 for $292, no tax, free delivery in US from TElectronics.

Reasons:

*Good reviews
*Best FFT's in the price range
*Separate channel controls
*Deep (enough) memory, fast refresh
*Model has been out for a few years; most "new scope bugs" have been resolved; many updates since beginning
*Instek (the company) is responsive
*Intended uses won't require higher bandwidths
*No need to be portable; it isn't going anywhere - it's staying on the bench
*Plan to place it on a small 7" tall 15" wide (same as scope) acrylic shelf from Walmart for <$9 to save some space. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-Stacking-Storage-Shelf-Clear-Chrome/528972739

I didn't get a lesser ~$150+/- more of a "beginner" scope because I want to rely on accuracy within decent specs while I'm learning, although there are some accurate scopes in the $100 to $250 price range BUT within very limited specifications.  I may not have enough mileage remaining to trade up later.

I am an old beginning beginner, aka "old noob."

[Calaverasgrande]

MG Chemical lead free is terrible. I tried saving a few bucks over Kester and regretted it. Nasty stuff. Toxic VOC byproducts that are worse than any pb solder rosin fumes.

[RF-Engineer]

Thank you for your help everyone. I decided to go with the Micsig due to the reasons I mentioned above. The other scopes are perfectly suitable for their price points, but the Micsig just suited my requirements better.

My next purchase will be an AWG and that should make my starter lab complete (for now at least).

No doubt you will like the Micsig.  I have the Siglent model you mentioned as well.  Both are very capable in their price range but the Micsig has become my "go to" scope.  One reason is its portability.  I can just grab it and test anywhere without hunting for the nearest AC outlet.  The knobs + touch screen is a great combination and I use both.  The Micsig is also a LOT less bulkier in a travel case than the Siglent.

Someone mentioned in a teardown video that the Micsig channel 1-4 engagement buttons have LEDs but they don't illuminate.  No big deal since the active channels show up on the screen.  Still it would be nice to have the back-lit buttons work as long as the LEDs are already there.

Speaking of which, we need more of our gear to have back-lighted panel legends with variable intensity just like our automobile dashboards.  It's a pain to shine a light on the control surface to find the right control in low light conditions.  That's one benefit of the Micsig - the entire scope can be operated from the touch screen.

Paul
 

 

[daveyk]

"Micsig STO1104C"

That is too cool. Shame its available at 150MHz maximum.  I wonder about it measurement capabilities (PW and setting the Reference Points for PW)?  It would be a great portable scope.  Being battery operated, you could work on tube equipment without fear of blowing it up without an isolation transformer (or even with one).

[uargo]

prices in ebay Europe:

Rigol DS1054Z  463€
https://www.ebay.es/itm/Rigol-DS1054Z-Osciloscopio-Digital-50MHz-4-Canales-1GS-S-Digital-Oscilloscope/112691976460?hash=item1a3cf7190c:g:CBYAAOSwu4BVh~4u

Siglent SDS1104x-E   510€
https://www.ebay.es/itm/Siglent-SDS1104X-E-Oszilloskop-4-Kanale-1-GS-s-100-MHz/273321028530?hash=item3fa333ebb2:g:QRIAAOSwZgheOuMZ

GW insted  GDS-1054B  755€
https://www.ebay.es/itm/Oszilloskop-digital-Band-50MHz-Kanale-4-10Mpts-1Gsps-1-st/163721213897?hash=item261e8b77c9:g:LhAAAOSwEYJc-I5e

Micsig STO1104C  640€
This  i cant found in ebay, but yes in european shop
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Micsig-STO1104C.html

Of these 4 oscilloscopes I choose Siglent SDS1104x-e and Micsig STO1104c, that are more modern powerful and complete
The battery on micsig is great for car job

[nctnico]

Those Ebay prices are insane. From www.eleshop.eu :
GDS-1054B : 409 euro (ex. VAT)
DS1054Z: 324 euro (ex. VAT)

[Elasia]

Yeah those prices are all nuts

Even batronix for a rigol is 339 euro which you can get a forum discount for another 6-7% off

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html


Siglent 1104 - 429 euro

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html

[tv84]

Yeah those prices are all nuts

Even batronix for a rigol is 339 euro which you can get a forum discount for another 6-7% off

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html


Siglent 1104 - 429 euro

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html

Those prices are without VAT.

[Elasia]

Yeah those prices are all nuts

Even batronix for a rigol is 339 euro which you can get a forum discount for another 6-7% off

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html


Siglent 1104 - 429 euro


https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html

Those prices are without VAT.

yeah only thing that makes sense is they precalculated a vat estimate and stuffed it into the listing

[Powernun]

I find eBay not having most of the stock of the European stores. I usually manually check the following ones:

UK:

• Digi-Key - https://www.digikey.co.uk
• Farnell - https://uk.farnell.com
• Labtronix - https://labtronix.co.uk
• Mouser - https://www.mouser.co.uk/
• Telonic - https://www.telonic.co.uk
• Tester - https://www.tester.co.uk

Europe:

• Banggood (shipping from UK or Europe) - https://uk.banggood.com
• Batronix - https://www.batronix.com
• Batter Fly - https://www.batterfly.com
• eBay - https://www.ebay.co.uk
• Eleshop - https://eleshop.eu
• eVision Systems - https://evision-webshop.de
• hagglezon (Amazon European store aggregator) - https://www.hagglezon.com
• TME - https://www.tme.eu
• Welectron - https://www.welectron.com

[ResistorRob]

Just an idea/suggestion:

Would it be a good idea to make a sticky thread for "I'm a hobbyist looking to buy my first scope".
This same question gets asked every week here. The answer always boils down to the same 5 scopes.
Maybe just make a really detailed buying guide covering the pros, cons,  features, and differences between them.
Then if after reading all that someone still needs help they can reply to that thread.

[tv84]

I find eBay not having most of the stock of the European stores. I usually manually check the following ones:

I heard about Brexit but I thought they'll remain in Europe...   

[nctnico]

Those prices are without VAT.

They have to be because the VAT rate is different in each country and webshops need to charge the VAT rate of the country of the buyer.

[tv84]

Not so, nico.

If I buy in Batronix, I'll pay the german VAT of 19%.  (The portuguese would be 23%.)

Code: [Select]

Do I have to pay the German VAT?
It depends. You have to pay the 19% German VAT if:

you are a private person living inside the EU
You don´t have to pay the German VAT if:

you are ordering for an European company with a valid and registered VAT number
you are ordering from outside the EU ( this includes Switzerland and Norway for example)

https://www.batronix.com/shop/shopping/vat-information.html

[gfmucci]

"Value" Added Tax.  What "value" is being added with that tax?

[tv84]

"Value" Added Tax.  What "value" is being added with that tax?

I can answer for the "subtracted" part...

[nctnico]

Not so, nico.

If I buy in Batronix, I'll pay the german VAT of 19%.  (The portuguese would be 23%.)

Code: [Select]

Do I have to pay the German VAT?
It depends. You have to pay the 19% German VAT if:

you are a private person living inside the EU
You don´t have to pay the German VAT if:

you are ordering for an European company with a valid and registered VAT number
you are ordering from outside the EU ( this includes Switzerland and Norway for example)

https://www.batronix.com/shop/shopping/vat-information.html

This snippet doesn't apply to a private person buying from Batronix. Anyway, the official EU website is a much better source:
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/vat/index_en.htm

.. Instead, they have to apply VAT in the country where the goods are delivered – VAT of destination

But it also depends on the turnover of the company per country (to make things more complicated). Most webshops seem to charge the destination VAT regardless.

[Fungus]

I find eBay not having most of the stock of the European stores. I usually manually check the following ones:

I heard about Brexit but I thought they'll remain in Europe...   

Nah, they'll go from being half in to being half out.

[tv84]

This snippet doesn't apply to a private person buying from Batronix. Anyway, the official EU website is a much better source:
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/vat/index_en.htm

.. Instead, they have to apply VAT in the country where the goods are delivered – VAT of destination

But it also depends on the turnover of the company per country (to make things more complicated). Most webshops seem to charge the destination VAT regardless.

I have done many web buys in EU countries and I was never charged by portuguese VAT.

That shows that most EU webshops (and Batronix is one example) charge the origin VAT and not the destination VAT.

If you read carefully the link you posted, you'll see that they would only have to charge the destination VAT to a taxable person not entitled to deduct input tax if the product exceeded 12.500€.

[Gandalf_Sr]

It's been over 20 years since I lived in the UK but the simple rule I understood was that an item bought in the EU that had tax paid on it in the country of purchase could then be taken/ shipped to any other EU country with no other taxes due. People in the UK bought cars from Belgium where the taxes were much lower than in the UK although you ended up with a left-hand drive version.

For US folks reading this thread, VAT is simply the equivalent of our sales tax.  Non-US people may be interested to know that different US states have different sales tax rates, Washington State charges 9.21% and Michigan 6%.  If I buy a car in Michigan, I pay 6% sales tax (no other stupid taxes like in the UK) so an Audi A4 I bought in Michigan cost me less in US dollars in 2000 than it cost in the UK in pounds and the exchange rate was around 1 pound = $1.75 (UK VAT is 20% currently).

A year or so back there was a 'feature' that you could live in state A (e.g. Michigan), buy something from state B (e.g. a computer from Dell in Texas), and pay no sales tax but the current US government stopped that and most states now charge sales tax on internet sales in either the state the buyer lives or the seller is based.

[nctnico]

It's been over 20 years since I lived in the UK but the simple rule I understood was that an item bought in the EU that had tax paid on it in the country of purchase could then be taken/ shipped to any other EU country with no other taxes due. People in the UK bought cars from Belgium where the taxes were much lower than in the UK although you ended up with a left-hand drive version.

A lot has been changed since then!

[tautech]

Just an idea/suggestion:

Would it be a good idea to make a sticky thread for "I'm a hobbyist looking to buy my first scope".
This same question gets asked every week here. The answer always boils down to the same 5 scopes.

Which could be totally different/outdated in just 6 months.
Whoever is the sticky's OP would need to maintain such a thread and we already have the DSO chart as a sticky.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digital-oscilloscope-comparison-chart/

Bit like watching 3 year old YT vids and making purchase decisions on outdated info. 

[Elasia]

I also deal in ERP land... for the most part VAT is suppose to be calculated on the destination country rate and also here is the kicker that trips a lot of people up

the VAT applies to SHIPPING costs as well! It is not possible to pre calculate an exact VAT price without knowing its destination, only a pre estimate can be offered which is what ebay did there after i went back and looked at it

[nctnico]

It would never be outdated if people kept providing opinions and updates on the thread which I have no doubt they would.

The problem is that not everyone has the same requirements. Some oscilloscopes are a better fit to a given set of requirement than others.

[gfmucci]

Just an idea/suggestion:

Would it be a good idea to make a sticky thread for "I'm a hobbyist looking to buy my first scope".
This same question gets asked every week here. The answer always boils down to the same 5 scopes.

Which could be totally different/outdated in just 6 months.
Whoever is the sticky's OP would need to maintain such a thread and we already have the DSO chart as a sticky.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digital-oscilloscope-comparison-chart/

Bit like watching 3 year old YT vids and making purchase decisions on outdated info. 

It would never be outdated if people kept providing opinions and updates on the thread which I have no doubt they would.