First oscilloscope for third-year EE student

[tv84]

I must confess, you're all almost selling me an AD2 ! No kidding.

I think it's time to start posting in TEA...   

[egonotto]

Hello,

Gandalf_Sr wrote: "If you still want to future-proof your first oscilloscope purchase; why not buy this baby (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Premium-Used-MSOV334A-Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscope-33-GHz-80-40-GSA-S-/183818300949?hash=item2acc6cae15) from Keysight on eBay, you'll 'save' $167,356,000 /s"

No no don't buy this scope. This is no every day scope.
It has no BNC and no 1MΩ input.

Best regards
egonotto

 

[JxR]

No no don't buy this scope. This is no every day scope.
It has no BNC and no 1MΩ input.

Best regards
egonotto

I have to agree.  Don't buy the 6 figure scope! 

[BillB]

No no don't buy this scope. This is no every day scope.
It has no BNC and no 1MΩ input.

Given that, I'm thinking of talking them down with an offer of $165,000... 

[RedFantom]

If you really did "returned it the same day", they you probably didn't give it a fair evaluation.

That is at least partially true. I sat down with it for about an hour, but I did not dare use it too much to prevent me from returning it after I was initially disappointed. Still, for €379, I won't be getting the Rigol again.

Wow, 4 pages...
Dont buy one. Your university has a lab, it is much better than whatever you buy now.
[...]
Or ask a professor, to give you a project and tools. This has enormous benefits.

Yes, my university has a lab. And the student association has workshops in the lab. But honestly, my projects go beyond simply soldering pins to a microcontroller and making LEDs blink.
The university lab (with the aforementioned DSOX3014Ts) is only accessible during opening hours (so no weekends), and I'd be kicked out whenever it is required for a course. On top of that, there are no probes, pliers, clippers or other required material, because that only gets handed out whenever you follow a course that requires using the lab, so I'd have to bring all of my own stuff every time (and the soldering irons are terrible because everyone seems to think that you need 500°C (932°F) to solder ). All in all, it is not impossible, but enough of a hindrance to want my own stuff.

I did IT all day at work, but also did IT all night at home.  I immersed myself in learning and improving myself.  My co-workers thought I was nuts, but eventually I started to get promotion after promotion while many of them stayed in their original positions.

That I certainly recognize: Only very few of my fellow students are interested in doing electronics projects as a hobby, and the few I know that do so have declared me crazy for wanting to get an oscilloscope...

Good news: I just found out I qualify for academic pricing on Analog Discovery!
Bad news: The old "$99" deal no longer applies, now it's more like "35% off".

I'd be ordering it through NI, then I get free shipping. But it sums to €250 including VAT. Do you think that's too much for the AD2? That would be including the BNC adapter board and the probes.

[Fungus]

Given that, I'm thinking of talking them down with an offer of $165,000... 

Try lowballing them first. I bet they'd accept $150,000. The $17,000 saving will buy you a matching probe for it.

[Fungus]

Good news: I just found out I qualify for academic pricing on Analog Discovery!
Bad news: The old "$99" deal no longer applies, now it's more like "35% off".

I'd be ordering it through NI, then I get free shipping. But it sums to €250 including VAT. Do you think that's too much for the AD2? That would be including the BNC adapter board and the probes.

It's a bit too much for me but I already have lots of toys, it wouldn't really do anything I can't already do.

Viewed purely as a piece of test gear it's right on the limit of value. It's not just test gear though, it's a whole little electronics world somewhere between test gear and Arduino.

nb. The secret to the AD2 is 90% in the PC software. If you're interested in one then download it and poke around. Imagine what you could do with it.

[exe]

I'd be ordering it through NI, then I get free shipping. But it sums to €250 including VAT. Do you think that's too much for the AD2? That would be including the BNC adapter board and the probes.

It's a good price considering it's not just a scope, it's a multi-function tool with good software support. In fact, I'd make it a first purchase, not a "big" scope. It has many features including digital io (not just logic analyzer, but also patter generator), rudimentary-but-working bipolar power supply, two channel function generator, and combination of these tools (e.g., bode plot). If you invest all your money into a single oscilloscope then you'll have limited capabilities. May be you don't need these capabilities, I don't know what you need. But I myself use all these features. Not to say oscilloscopes don't come with differential input (which is, btw, not available with bnc board).

PS 250euro may seem a lot, but for me it's just a few purchases from a parts supplier. Tools cost money, unfortunately.

[tautech]

b) The Siglent isn't a dream 'scope, he just hasn't owned one yet. Maybe if he buys a Siglent he'll immediately start finding things he doesn't like and be looking at that Keysight again.

Maybe, yes. I wish I could try it out and determine that before buying it, so I'd know for sure. But unless someone here knows a shop in The Netherlands I can go to, I can't find one where I'd have that opportunity.

A valid statement and reply.  We do seem to have a Siglent distributor on this board that I may have noticed pops up from time to time    Could such a person provide a demo unit to help the OP make a more informed purchase decision?

Nope, too far away however if RedFantom was to give some better indication of his location there could be a member close by with a SDS1104X-E for him to hook up with and have a try with one.
Or find the Netherlands dealers that might have a demo or a unit in the shop that they can try before buy:
https://www.siglenteu.com/how-to-buy/

[Gandalf_Sr]

Good news: I just found out I qualify for academic pricing on Analog Discovery!
Bad news: The old "$99" deal no longer applies, now it's more like "35% off".

I'd be ordering it through NI, then I get free shipping. But it sums to €250 including VAT. Do you think that's too much for the AD2? That would be including the BNC adapter board and the probes.

WAIT!!! Listen to some good advice...

Yes, [the AD2] is very useful and has some features regular bench scopes do not. But the Op asked if "would the AD2 be enough?", and when the AD2 doesn't even have the same basic input ranges as every other scope on the market, one of the fundamental aspects of a scope, then the answer surely has to be no at some point in usability?

That's not some fanboy telling you that, it's Dave Jones, the guy who runs EEVBlog.

I truly believe that the DS1054Z (which now comes with all the upgrades for free) will be the best fit for your needs as a starter scope.  I am saying this because I believe it to be true and that statement is reinforced by the fact that I happen to own one.

[Fungus]

WAIT!!! Listen to some good advice...

Yes, [the AD2] is very useful and has some features regular bench scopes do not. But the Op asked if "would the AD2 be enough?", and when the AD2 doesn't even have the same basic input ranges as every other scope on the market, one of the fundamental aspects of a scope, then the answer surely has to be no at some point in usability?

That's not some fanboy telling you that, it's Dave Jones, the guy who runs EEVBlog.

No mV range? Build a voltage divider. It's only two resistors... 

Edit: Well, maybe two resistors and an op-amp in this case. It has to be high impedance.

[nctnico]

There are also Micsig tablet scopes. Portable, decent performance.

The Keysight DSOX3014T at the University also has a touchscreen. I've tried it, but I preferred the physical knobs and buttons. I could adjust them more easily while keeping one hand free to hold something in the circuit or hold a screwdriver.

I have never worked with the DSOX3014T myself but it is likely touch screen operation has been added to the user interface afterwards. The Micsig however has been designed for touchscreen operation from the start so the interface is probably much better compared to your Keysight experience. Nowadays Micsig also has a version with knobs for those who can't do without. I own a MicSig TO1104 myself and it is not a bad oscilloscope. If you have the chance be sure to take it for a spin.

[2N3055]

There are also Micsig tablet scopes. Portable, decent performance.

The Keysight DSOX3014T at the University also has a touchscreen. I've tried it, but I preferred the physical knobs and buttons. I could adjust them more easily while keeping one hand free to hold something in the circuit or hold a screwdriver.

I have never worked with the DSOX3014T myself but it is likely touch screen operation has been added to the user interface afterwards. The Micsig however has been designed for touchscreen operation from the start so the interface is probably much better compared to your Keysight experience. Nowadays Micsig also has a version with knobs for those who can't do without. I own a MicSig TO1104 myself and it is not a bad oscilloscope. If you have the chance be sure to take it for a spin.

Micsig is also easy to carry around and can run from batteries...
Very nice actually..


damn..   
Must not buy another scope...
Must not buy another scope...
Must not buy another scope...
Must not buy another scope...

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

I like the micsig !!

[Old Printer]

Good news: I just found out I qualify for academic pricing on Analog Discovery!

Bad news: The old "$99" deal no longer applies, now it's more like "35% off".

By the time I've paid $50 Fedex shipping (the only shipping option) plus unknown import fees it's going to be at least $275 for just an AD2 + BNC adapter.

Not happening.

(I assume it's also not going to happen for the OP in this thread so any further discussion of AD2 is moot  )

The $99 special EDU has been gone for years, ever since the AD2 in the fancy green case was released. Only the black case AD1's were sold for $99, though electronically the are very similar. I bought an AD2 for $279 from Mouser plus shipping in 2017, additional $25 for the BNC adapter and added third party probes. For what I have been able to learn on it I thought it was a very good investment, for me. Not everybody operates on the same budget. Now that I have my 1104X-E I might sell my AD2 as I still have an AD1 for all of the digital tools it has.

[thm_w]

Good news: I just found out I qualify for academic pricing on Analog Discovery!
Bad news: The old "$99" deal no longer applies, now it's more like "35% off".
By the time I've paid $50 Fedex shipping (the only shipping option) plus unknown import fees it's going to be at least $275 for just an AD2 + BNC adapter.
Not happening.
(I assume it's also not going to happen for the OP in this thread so any further discussion of AD2 is moot  )

Yeah, too much IMO.
There is a AD1 on ebay w/ BNC for $120 OBO. You can see the sold prices are anywhere from $70-150 for AD1/AD2.

[boffin]

I'd happily post you my AD1 if Dave were to just pick me for one of his scope giveaways.

[Someone]

All bench scopes have 1/2/5 sequences in all the ranges, like a dozen ranges total.
So 1mV/Div, 2mV, 5mV, 10mV, 20mV, 50mV, 100mV, 200mV, 500mV, 1V, 2V, 5V, 10V/div
How many does the AD2 have?
And what overloads can it handle?

It has: 100uV, 200uV, 500uV, 1mV, 2mV, 5mV, 10mV, 20mV, 50mV, 100mV, 200mV, 500mV, 1V, 2V, 5V.

Or you can just type in any number you want, it seems it accepts any scale (may be it does combination of hw/sw scaling). Or use mouse wheel on right side to change vertical of active channel. Or use mouse wheel on the range selector.

Concerning overload, I'm not sure what you mean. It accepts +-25V (don't measure mains with it). As for recovery from overload I dunno, never tested it.

I'd say the most annoying thing for me is lack of AC coupling. The coupling jumper is on BNC adapter, but I don't use it because 1) I don't need it 2) I don't want to have common ground, I want differential input.

Differential input is the AD(2) inputs only real feature. To make things less confusing it only has two gain settings:
https://reference.digilentinc.com/reference/instrumentation/analog-discovery-2/reference-manual
They have full scale ranges of -28.6V to 30V and -2.6V to 2.7V, just two gains for the front end. It can use the higher bit width of the ADC to add some more gain, but at the cost of resolution.

A scope on the flip side might have a dozen or more gain settings for the front end, and adjustable "vernier" reference voltages to adjust the vertical scale in much finer steps. Also with a higher sample rate that can be accumulated or filtered down to improve resolution, and from that a "regular" scope will actually have more resolution than the AD(2) in some settings. But just on the full scale range you would be looking at something such as -40V to 40V down to -4mV to 4mV entirely from the analog front end.

[EEVblog]

A scope on the flip side might have a dozen or more gain settings for the front end, and adjustable "vernier" reference voltages to adjust the vertical scale in much finer steps.

I'm about to do a quick video on the advantages of this in next few days.

[Old Printer]

All bench scopes have 1/2/5 sequences in all the ranges, like a dozen ranges total.
So 1mV/Div, 2mV, 5mV, 10mV, 20mV, 50mV, 100mV, 200mV, 500mV, 1V, 2V, 5V, 10V/div
How many does the AD2 have?
And what overloads can it handle?

It has: 100uV, 200uV, 500uV, 1mV, 2mV, 5mV, 10mV, 20mV, 50mV, 100mV, 200mV, 500mV, 1V, 2V, 5V.

Or you can just type in any number you want, it seems it accepts any scale (may be it does combination of hw/sw scaling). Or use mouse wheel on right side to change vertical of active channel. Or use mouse wheel on the range selector.

Concerning overload, I'm not sure what you mean. It accepts +-25V (don't measure mains with it). As for recovery from overload I dunno, never tested it.

I'd say the most annoying thing for me is lack of AC coupling. The coupling jumper is on BNC adapter, but I don't use it because 1) I don't need it 2) I don't want to have common ground, I want differential input.

Differential input is the AD(2) inputs only real feature. To make things less confusing it only has two gain settings:
https://reference.digilentinc.com/reference/instrumentation/analog-discovery-2/reference-manual
They have full scale ranges of -28.6V to 30V and -2.6V to 2.7V, just two gains for the front end. It can use the higher bit width of the ADC to add some more gain, but at the cost of resolution.

A scope on the flip side might have a dozen or more gain settings for the front end, and adjustable "vernier" reference voltages to adjust the vertical scale in much finer steps. Also with a higher sample rate that can be accumulated or filtered down to improve resolution, and from that a "regular" scope will actually have more resolution than the AD(2) in some settings. But just on the full scale range you would be looking at something such as -40V to 40V down to -4mV to 4mV entirely from the analog front end.

To discus the Analog Discovery as if it were only a scope makes no sense, It is a package of electronic test gear including
Two-channel arbitrary function generator (±5V, 14-bit, 100MS/s, 12MHz+ bandwidth - with the Analog Discovery BNC Adapter Board)
Stereo audio amplifier to drive external headphones or speakers with replicated AWG signals
16-channel digital logic analyzer (3.3V CMOS and 1.8V or 5V tolerant, 100MS/s)
 Digital Bus Analyzers (SPI, I²C, UART, Parallel)
16-channel pattern generator (3.3V CMOS, 100MS/s)
16-channel virtual digital I/O including buttons, switches, and LEDs – perfect for logic training applications
Two input/output digital trigger signals for linking multiple instruments (3.3V CMOS)
Single channel voltmeter (AC, DC, ±25V)
Network Analyzer – Bode, Nyquist, Nichols transfer diagrams of a circuit. Range: 1Hz to 10MHz
Spectrum Analyzer – power spectrum and spectral measurements (noise floor, SFDR, SNR, THD, etc.)
Data Logger - Exportable data and plot functionality
Impedance Analyzer - Capacitive and Inductive Elements
Protocol Analyzer - SPI, I2C, UART, and CAN
Two programmable power supplies (0…+5V , 0…-5V).

Anyone who bought it as a scope alone would surely be missing it's purpose.

[Someone]

To discus the Analog Discovery as if it were only a scope makes no sense, It is a package of electronic test gear including
Two-channel arbitrary function generator (±5V, 14-bit, 100MS/s, 12MHz+ bandwidth - with the Analog Discovery BNC Adapter Board), also in scopes
Stereo audio amplifier to drive external headphones or speakers with replicated AWG signals
16-channel digital logic analyzer (3.3V CMOS and 1.8V or 5V tolerant, 100MS/s), also in scopes
 Digital Bus Analyzers (SPI, I²C, UART, Parallel), also in scopes
16-channel pattern generator (3.3V CMOS, 100MS/s)
16-channel virtual digital I/O including buttons, switches, and LEDs – perfect for logic training applications
Two input/output digital trigger signals for linking multiple instruments (3.3V CMOS), also in scopes
Single channel voltmeter (AC, DC, ±25V), also in scopes
Network Analyzer – Bode, Nyquist, Nichols transfer diagrams of a circuit. Range: 1Hz to 10MHz, also in scopes
Spectrum Analyzer – power spectrum and spectral measurements (noise floor, SFDR, SNR, THD, etc.), also in scopes
Data Logger - Exportable data and plot functionality, also in scopes
Impedance Analyzer - Capacitive and Inductive Elements , also in scopes
Protocol Analyzer - SPI, I2C, UART, and CAN, also in scopes
Two programmable power supplies (0…+5V , 0…-5V).

Anyone who bought it as a scope alone would surely be missing it's purpose.

Except that a scope can hit the majority of those features too, they have significant overlap (annotated above). You're getting into "fan" territory by pushing out grandiose lists as justification when there are no comparative measures. Some people love PC based scopes and rightly so, they have specific advantages for many applications. But it comes down to the applications, not lists of irrelevant specs.

[EEVblog]

Anyone who bought it as a scope alone would surely be missing it's purpose.

Sure, but the OP asked a very specific question of whether it would be suitable down the track, and when it doesn't even have a basic vertical front end that all other scopes do, the answer to that has to be no.
Buying an AD2 now and then a scope later as needed is a perfectly valid plan. The OP is in an education environment, and seems to desire PC based scope features, so seems a reasonable choice for now.

[Old Printer]

Anyone who bought it as a scope alone would surely be missing it's purpose.

Sure, but the OP asked a very specific question of whether it would be suitable down the track, and when it doesn't even have a basic vertical front end that all other scopes do, the answer to that has to be no.
Buying an AD2 now and then a scope later as needed is a perfectly valid plan. The OP is in an education environment, and seems to desire PC based scope features, so seems a reasonable choice for now.

After five pages the waters do get a bit muddy, but the OP did have the AD on his original post list. I am a "fan" of the AD as a learning tool, not so much as a scope or PC based scope (PicoScope), as it certainly has its limits. A few pages back I told him had the Siglent been available with it's current firmware when I bought my AD2 I would have bought the 1104E-X and waited for a good price on a used AD1. I think the AD1 has enough useful tools that make it worth owning if available in the $75-125 range, but that is me and His needs may be different.

[Old Printer]

A scope on the flip side might have a dozen or more gain settings for the front end, and adjustable "vernier" reference voltages to adjust the vertical scale in much finer steps.

I'm about to do a quick video on the advantages of this in next few days.

Looking forward to this Dave, with both the AD & a real scope  at hand I will be able at appreciate a guided tour through the differences

[RedFantom]

nb. The secret to the AD2 is 90% in the PC software. If you're interested in one then download it and poke around. Imagine what you could do with it.

Thank you for pointing that out to me! Yesterday afternoon, I took some time to sit down with the software and play around with the example devices. This made me realize that while I liked being able to post-process the data of the MyDAQ, that would be something I would hardly ever do for my own projects (this was for making plots for the report on an assignment).

Then I considered how the two devices would differ in how I would use them. How they would sit on my bench and hook up to my projects. How I would feel about getting it out, connecting everything.

Finally, I decided that for an oscilloscope I would rather have a device with physical buttons, that would sit next to my soldering iron and be close to my other stuff. The Analog Discovery would still be a great tool for other purposes, but I set out to buy an oscilloscope. So I ordered the Siglent SDS1104X-E yesterday (because of the built-in decoding and because I could simply find more material on it), and it arrived today. I am very happy with it. It is very responsive, the FFT looks great and I find the interface more intuitive.

Anyone who bought it as a scope alone would surely be missing it's purpose.

Sure, but the OP asked a very specific question of whether it would be suitable down the track, and when it doesn't even have a basic vertical front end that all other scopes do, the answer to that has to be no.
Buying an AD2 now and then a scope later as needed is a perfectly valid plan. The OP is in an education environment, and seems to desire PC based scope features, so seems a reasonable choice for now.

This is also a thing I very much took into account. I already have made a boost converter that goes (slightly) over 60V. I would not feel comfortable measuring such things with the Analog Discovery, even with a 10x probe.


A big thank you to everyone who gave their opinion! This topic has really helped me make the decision, and that scope is looking great.


To anyone who still wants to sell their AD: I think I'll figure out how all these knobs and buttons work first, but it still looks like a cool device  .


PS: I did not want to post yesterday in case I would be disappointed.