First oscilloscope for third-year EE student

[exe]

I think there is not right or wrong answer. The op should buy whatever makes him happy. I think prosumer market is different from professional market. Professionals often just buy tools that let the job done. Hobbyist don't have a job, they just tinker around for own enjoyment. T&M equipment is just gadgets for them, like smartphones. This is called TEA .

I myself used to have a Siglent, it was my first oscilloscope. I didn't like it, so returned it. I bought Micsig which I didn't like either in the beginning . I also considered GW Instek, but because it didn't have working intensity grade, I discarded it. The thing is, what I thought was important (like intensity grade) turned out to be useless, and vice versa. Now I wouldn't even care which one to buy, I'd get the job done with any of them. But two years ago I simply had different priorities and didn't have a clear vision of what features would be useful to me.

So, I think it's not really that important what to buy. Just buy whatever makes you happy. If saving every penny on purchase makes you happy, then go for cheap or second hand . It's also fine to be a fanboy. People often imply it's bad, but it's not .

[CiscERsang]

Hello everyone!


I had actually purchased a Rigol DS1054Z, but that was so slow and unresponsive that I really did not like it at all. When I tried the FFT on a 10kHz oscillator and saw that I could not even go beyond 35dB SNR on it and I couldn't even see the harmonics (I had hoped for 45-50dB, I got 60dB with a Keysight DSOX3014T at Uni), I was so disillusioned that I returned it the same day.

Consider any scope as a tool. It helps to see something that you are not capable to see. That's all, nothing more. It never helps you to replace BGA chip, or make alterations in firmware. It's not a Smart TV which is being used 24/7 by your girlfriend or family. So, better buy modern SMART TV, smarter and wider. 

Speaking seriously:

• Keysight 1204G is decent gear. True, it costs a fortune. (Our Prof. has one).
• Siglent 1104X-e or 1204X-e. We have some experience with this scope (it was bought for us). It's quite young model, so I think it has a potential in terms of FW impovement, at least and so forth. 
  

BR

[Fungus]

Why would he want to repurchase the same scope he already bought, didn't like, and returned?

Because:
a) Rigols are useful tools, despite having slow vertical controls (which is something you can get used to).
b) The Siglent isn't a dream 'scope, he just hasn't owned one yet. Maybe if he buys a Siglent he'll immediately start finding things he doesn't like and be looking at that Keysight again.

I myself used to have a Siglent, it was my first oscilloscope. I didn't like it, so returned it.

It really happens!

[nctnico]

Scanning the thread reveals the comment (not by me)...

member nctnico is a bit of a GW-Instek fan.

Which isn't true at all (which is what I wrote in a response to that). I have owned and used many different types of oscilloscopes over the past decades. The reason I mention GW-Instek regulary is because they have several models which are well worth considering when looking for a not so expensive oscilloscope.

[RedFantom]

One thing I’d like to add, personally, I wouldn’t worry about a built in AWG. I have owned two scopes with them built in. And I think I have used them the grand total of once. I way prefer my standalone AWG. Usually when I am injecting a signal somewhere, my scope is busy with other measurements and I don’t want to be flicking through menus etc adjusting things back and forth. Usually the amount you pay to add on an internal AWG would buy you a nice external one. This I think is vastly preferable.

Sorry for missing your reply earlier! It would indeed save quite some desk space, but the €250 option on the Keysight indeed does seem very steep. As the AWG can benefit from much the same hardware as the oscilloscope itself, you'd think it be cheaper than getting a separate AWG. I'll probably look to get one at a later point.


Replying to every post in this discussion seems superfluous, so I will say this:
Yes, an oscilloscope is a tool that should get the job done. But, I compare it to buying shoes. I buy my shoes on walking comfort as the first priority, but there is still a budget involved. Yes, I could place money first and buy shoes that are very cheap. But then every day when I walk with those shoes on I will regret my decision to put the money first, because my feet will be sore. Do I get from A to B? Sure. Is it a nice experience? No, it is not. This does not mean that my current shoes are 100% to my satisfaction. I think they could look better. There has to be a sacrifice in some department. Where to make the compromises, I think that's personal.
That is why I returned the Rigol. Not because it couldn't get the job done. But because I knew that if I kept it I would regret it, at least for €379. If I can find one for €250 or less, that's a different consideration, but for anything over €350 it must be something that I do not mind using. That doesn't mean I think it was a bad scope or that others should not be satisfied with theirs. I can't and won't defend that decision any more than this.

b) The Siglent isn't a dream 'scope, he just hasn't owned one yet. Maybe if he buys a Siglent he'll immediately start finding things he doesn't like and be looking at that Keysight again.

Maybe, yes. I wish I could try it out and determine that before buying it, so I'd know for sure. But unless someone here knows a shop in The Netherlands I can go to, I can't find one where I'd have that opportunity.


The question I'm trying to answer for myself now is: Would the AD2 be enough? I'll owe you that answer until at least tomorrow, because now I must get back to studying :/ .

[EEVblog]

The question I'm trying to answer for myself now is: Would the AD2 be enough?

No, because it doesn't have something every other scope has had for 50 years, a decent selection of vertical input ranges.
That's for starters.

[Fungus]

The question I'm trying to answer for myself now is: Would the AD2 be enough? I'll owe you that answer until at least tomorrow, because now I must get back to studying :/ .

The AD2 isn't a mindblowing oscilloscope but it's a very useful tool for messing around with electronics and it has one of the best audio-frequency FFTs anywhere.

The secret isn't in the hardware, it's in the software, which is awesome. I believe you can download it and look around without an AD2 attached to your PC.

If you can get the educational discount they AD2 is very cheap for what you get in return. I believe just the A/D converter chip on the AD2 costs about $100.

One would definitely keep you occupied while you save up for the Keysight.

[DDunfield]

I've been reading through this thread, and wow ... still can't believe how almost ANY discussion on the merits of various scopes (or any TE) always seems to degenerate into pointless arguments and "fanboy" accusations ...

My advice, work out what you actually need/want which will probably be at least to some extent different from anyone else's view, do some research, pick one one that looks good and go with it.

Don't expect to make the best decision out of the gate, but you can make a good one. This won't be your last scope. Once you've had one for a while your view on what is good/bad may change.


A few things to consider:

NO scope will be ideal to you.  I've been using TE for close to 50 years. I've used dozens of different scopes, have personally had more than a dozen different ones living in my own lab at various points, currently have about 1/2 dozen ponies in the stable, and I can tell you NONE of them are/were "perfect".

The simple reason being that like any product (especially a complex one), they are a compromise.  A "feature" that you just love will drive the next guy nuts.  TE like anything else can't be all things to all people.


re: AD2

I don't have one, but it looks to be a great little jack-of-all-trades tool that is as Dave says, focused on education.
Would I have it as my first scope?   -- probably not.
Would I like one to play with? -- absolutely.

It could be a great second scope, but as my primary bench instrument ... call me old fashioned, but I like a physical scope with real knobs and switches and a separate display on my bench.
I have a USB scope that lives in my laptop bag for times when I'm off-site and don't want to drag along a bench scope. It's great for what it does, but I almost never use it on the bench.

A "virtual" scope needs a mouse, which means you need a place to put a mouse close to your DUT (not always as easy at you would think). It also needs screen real-estate, and more importantly needs "focus" on your screen to make adjustments. If it's the only thing you are using on the computer that's ok, but I am usually looking through data sheets, or at source code (what the ell am I doing to make it do THAT!), hunting some spec. down on the web or whatever ... the point is, having to mouse around, shift focus to the scope, then drag controls - which you have to look at as there's no tactile feedback, is no comparison to just plonking your pinky on a knob and adjusting it while focusing your attention on the display and probe position.

For a first scope, I strongly recommend a "real" one.


Re: DS1054Z

If you don't like it, you don't like it and shouldn't get it.  I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, but do consider this before sending the next contender back.

If you really did "returned it the same day", they you probably didn't give it a fair evaluation.

I've had a 1054Z for some time now. I picked it because I wanted 4 channels and deep memory, and since I'm (mostly) retired and don't anticipate generating a lot of revenue from it, yeah.. because it was the cheapest thing available that would do what I wanted and seemed decent.

My first reactions were:
  1) Four channels and such deep memory is REALLY nice!
  2) I didn't like the combined vertical controls - but given that it was 4 channels in a small size, probably necessary.
  3) wow ... is this thing slow!

But I have to say that after using it a bit, I've gotten quite comfortable with it and mostly don't notice the negatives anymore. That's not to say I wouldn't like it to have separate controls or have a faster responding UI, but I wouldn't say they slow me down or cause me anything more than very mild annoyance. It's not actually as slow as it seemed at first, it just stood out as my other scopes have no noticeable UI lag. It's pretty much my go-to scope these days (I *like* deep memory).


I have no doubt that a Tek, Keysight, Lecroy, Siglent, GW etc... would all have things that stand out as negatives to you at first that would ultimately prove to be of less consequence than you think, don't discount any one of them because of first impressions. First impressions are often misleading.

Dave

[exe]

No, because it doesn't have something every other scope has had for 50 years, a decent selection of vertical input ranges.

I'm not sure what you mean, but I don't have any general usability problems with ad2. I'd say the opposite, I can put different functions on different windows, and have all of them on one screen (I mostly use power supply, bode, and oscilloscope). I can do this with standalone equipment (power supply, func gen and oscilloscope), but I found controlling from my computer more convenient. That's why I use it, and not dedicated equipment that does just one function. Not to say typing, saving screenshots, doing measurements etc is more convenient from my laptop. I found "virtual bench" really useful.

[EEVblog]

No, because it doesn't have something every other scope has had for 50 years, a decent selection of vertical input ranges.

I'm not sure what you mean

All bench scopes have 1/2/5 sequences in all the ranges, like a dozen ranges total.
So 1mV/Div, 2mV, 5mV, 10mV, 20mV, 50mV, 100mV, 200mV, 500mV, 1V, 2V, 5V, 10V/div
How many does the AD2 have?
And what overloads can it handle?

[EEVblog]

No, because it doesn't have something every other scope has had for 50 years, a decent selection of vertical input ranges.

I'm not sure what you mean, but I don't have any general usability problems with ad2. I'd say the opposite, I can put different functions on different windows, and have all of them on one screen (I mostly use power supply, bode, and oscilloscope). I can do this with standalone equipment (power supply, func gen and oscilloscope), but I found controlling from my computer more convenient. That's why I use it, and not dedicated equipment that does just one function. Not to say typing, saving screenshots, doing measurements etc is more convenient from my laptop. I found "virtual bench" really useful.

Yes, it's very useful and has some features regular bench scopes do not. But the Op asked if "would the AD2 be enough?", and when the AD2 doesn't even have the same basic input ranges as every other scope on the market, one of the fundamental aspects of a scope, then the answer surely has to be no at some point in usability?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

A tektronix 2232, because it's analog but at the press of a button becomes a very nice DSO. And they're cheap now.

[exe]

All bench scopes have 1/2/5 sequences in all the ranges, like a dozen ranges total.
So 1mV/Div, 2mV, 5mV, 10mV, 20mV, 50mV, 100mV, 200mV, 500mV, 1V, 2V, 5V, 10V/div
How many does the AD2 have?
And what overloads can it handle?

It has: 100uV, 200uV, 500uV, 1mV, 2mV, 5mV, 10mV, 20mV, 50mV, 100mV, 200mV, 500mV, 1V, 2V, 5V.

Or you can just type in any number you want, it seems it accepts any scale (may be it does combination of hw/sw scaling). Or use mouse wheel on right side to change vertical of active channel. Or use mouse wheel on the range selector.

Concerning overload, I'm not sure what you mean. It accepts +-25V (don't measure mains with it). As for recovery from overload I dunno, never tested it.

I'd say the most annoying thing for me is lack of AC coupling. The coupling jumper is on BNC adapter, but I don't use it because 1) I don't need it 2) I don't want to have common ground, I want differential input.

If one wants, it's possible to play with AD2 without the unit itself. Software supports demo mode. Beware that some nice functions a bit hidden in the UI and context menus (it can do more than it appears at first glance). I'm fine with this as I think overall UI is good. Happy discovery .

[Fungus]

My first reactions were:
  3) wow ... is this thing slow!

Sure, because the first thing you touch is the vertical position control.

Apart from that though, what else is slow? Does the screen only update twice a second? Do the menus take forever to open? Does it take ages to respond when you press zoom?

Answer: Nope.

I'm really not sure why the vertical control is slow or why Rigol doesn't do anything about it. A lot of it is down to technique though. It helps if you twiddle the knob in small steps instead of doing prolonged turns.

I made a thread about it, here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-ds1054z-vertical-response-discussion-thread/msg1027863/#msg1027863


(and (b) Is there genuinely not a single slow function on any other 'scope apart from the DS1054Z?  )

[JxR]

b) The Siglent isn't a dream 'scope, he just hasn't owned one yet. Maybe if he buys a Siglent he'll immediately start finding things he doesn't like and be looking at that Keysight again.

Maybe, yes. I wish I could try it out and determine that before buying it, so I'd know for sure. But unless someone here knows a shop in The Netherlands I can go to, I can't find one where I'd have that opportunity.

A valid statement and reply.  We do seem to have a Siglent distributor on this board that I may have noticed pops up from time to time    Could such a person provide a demo unit to help the OP make a more informed purchase decision?

[exe]

I recommend go to an industrial event (there are a few in NL too, like "electronics and applications", there are other) and touch equipment yourself. At least big vendors like rigol, tek, siglent, r&s, keysight are always present. Others (micsig, NI which own ad2, afaik) may be harder to find. In the worst case one can order equipment online and return if not needed. Or make a loan of demo unit.

[DDunfield]

My first reactions were:
  3) wow ... is this thing slow!

Sure, because the first thing you touch is the vertical position control.

Apart from that though, what else is slow? Does the screen only update twice a second? Do the menus take forever to open? Does it take ages to respond when you press zoom?

Answer: Nope.

Which is exactly my point- the "slow UI" is a first impression because the vertical control lags, and this is one of the most frequently used functions and doesn't lag on most other scopes. Once you grow accustomed to it, it's not a serious issue (I rarely even notice it now), but one that at first seem pretty dramatic which makes it seem worse than it actually is.

(and (b) Is there genuinely not a single slow function on any other 'scope apart from the DS1054Z?  )

I've used many scopes where certain elements in the UI were noticeably slow to respond. But I've seen few in which the vertical control lags which makes the 1054Z stand out (my UT-81B does as well, but you expect that from a low-end scopemeter where the VC is buttons). I think it stems from analog scopes where the vertical controls were "instant" and most DSO makers have tried hard to emulate that "feel", but it's clearly one area where Rigol cost-reduced. I don't think that was in itself a terrible decision, but it does sour the first impression if you are not expecting it.

Dave

[Fungus]

Once you grow accustomed to it, it's not a serious issue (I rarely even notice it now)

Yep. Sometimes I touch scopes with really fast vertical (including an older 2-channel Rigol the other day) and I think "Ohh, that's nice!" but in use at home I really don't notice it. My brain has tuned it out.

I really don't know why it's slow, the screen is going at a high frame rate so why can't they update the vertical offset at the same speed? Beats me.  After living with one though, I wouln't pay $150 to fix it. It's a complete no-brainer to spend that money on something else instead unless you're rich and/or already have everything else. In either case the Siglent isn't a major upgrade though, it's still a bargain basement 'scope, only one small step up from the Rigol in the scheme of things.

If FFT was critical then yes, I'd want something better than a DS1054Z. I wouldn't take a dealer's word for anything though, I'd want to see it for myself.

[tszaboo]

Wow, 4 pages...
Dont buy one. Your university has a lab, it is much better than whatever you buy now.
I'm quite sure your university has an self made student organization, lab, or anything like that, that will give you access not only to a scope, but people with similar interest and a lot more tools. Join it.

Or ask a professor, to give you a project and tools. This has enormous benefits.

Where you are going to work, it will have one, which will be better than whatever you buy now. And if they dont, and you plan to do some boring job which doesnt involve having an oscilloscope, than you will be able to afford one, which will be better, than whatever you buy now.

[apblog]

I just wanted to add in my two cents.

I have owned Siglent gear and have never had a good experience with it.  That's all I'm going to say.

As for GW-Instek, one of their scopes is supposed to have an excellent FFT.  So good that I've considered buying it just to supplement my Keysight 3000T.  I think the GWI I'm referring to is about $2000 though.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but you can trade sampling rate for bit-depth.  So with an appropriately capable scope, you can get more than 8 bits and thus better dynamic range on your FFT.

For less than $500, it's going to be impossible to get something that will be an excellent piece of gear.

The Siglent seems to be the best low-end choice right now, so get one, learn it's limitations and maybe upgrade in a few years if you feel you need to.

My first digital scope was a super-cheesy Rigol from about 2005.  10K points of memory.  Yes, that's K.  Unusable FFT.  No decodes of any kind.  Bugs everywhere.

But that scope literally changed my professional life, despite it's limitations.  Just the ability to single-shot and freeze a waveform was a massive game-changer for me.

Good luck.
 

[Fungus]

Your university has a lab, it is much better than whatever you buy now.
I'm quite sure your university has an self made student organization, lab, or anything like that, that will give you access not only to a scope, but people with similar interest and a lot more tools. Join it.

Or ask a professor, to give you a project and tools. This has enormous benefits.

Where you are going to work, it will have one, which will be better than whatever you buy now. And if they dont, and you plan to do some boring job which doesnt involve having an oscilloscope, than you will be able to afford one, which will be better, than whatever you buy now.

Sure, but there's nothing like being able to get out of bed in the middle of the night and do a quick test while still in your underwear. 

[BillB]

Sure, but there's nothing like being able to get out of bed in the middle of the night and do a quick test while still in your underwear. 

Get out of bed ?!

[Gandalf_Sr]

Years ago (probably 40 or more), I was an apprentice with the UK's Post Office Telecommunications (now BT).  There was a guy (john I think) who was the sole worker in a remote mini-exchange way out on the moors and the guys from the main exchange would call John up around 8 am and ask if all was well at his facility, he would always answer the call - sort of proving that he was at work I guess.

Then John died unexpectedly and afterwards they discovered that his work phone had an extension that ran a mile to his bedside table!

[JxR]

Wow, 4 pages...
Dont buy one. Your university has a lab, it is much better than whatever you buy now.
I'm quite sure your university has an self made student organization, lab, or anything like that, that will give you access not only to a scope, but people with similar interest and a lot more tools. Join it.

Or ask a professor, to give you a project and tools. This has enormous benefits.

Where you are going to work, it will have one, which will be better than whatever you buy now. And if they dont, and you plan to do some boring job which doesnt involve having an oscilloscope, than you will be able to afford one, which will be better, than whatever you buy now.

I think there is quite alot of good advice here, except this:

Dont buy one. Your university has a lab, it is much better than whatever you buy now.

Yes, recognize as a young student you may not have the budget to buy the tools your school has on campus.  That doesn't mean that an entry level tool would still not be invaluable to your learning experience.  Immerse yourself in your education.  Do your school projects, assist in university reasearch, etc....But also work on your own projects, fail, fail again, learn, and grow.

Having your own tools that you have access to whenever you want is invaluable.  I'm also currently a university student, but I'm like 40 years old now, own a home, have a wife whose salary can make ends meet, and I'm also a veteran (so I quite literally get paid to goto school by my government).  So I'm lucky to have a much larger budget to work with. 

Unlike you, my school provides me complete shit tools that I only have access to in a particular classes lab.  I can access better tools in a research lab, but I can't use them for any personal projects.

When I worked in IT for 20 odd years, the absolute best decision I made was to build my own smallish server farm.  I did IT all day at work, but also did IT all night at home.  I immersed myself in learning and improving myself.  My co-workers thought I was nuts, but eventually I started to get promotion after promotion while many of them stayed in their original positions.

Don't be discouraged if you can't afford the tools you use at university.  What you can afford now can always later be upgraded when you start working.  Buy the tools you can afford to help yourself grow now...don't wait.  Immerse yourself in your learning.  Also make sure your having fun!

[Fungus]

Good news: I just found out I qualify for academic pricing on Analog Discovery!

Bad news: The old "$99" deal no longer applies, now it's more like "35% off".

By the time I've paid $50 Fedex shipping (the only shipping option) plus unknown import fees it's going to be at least $275 for just an AD2 + BNC adapter.

Not happening.

(I assume it's also not going to happen for the OP in this thread so any further discussion of AD2 is moot  )