Author Topic: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student  (Read 18341 times)

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Offline RedFantomTopic starter

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First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« on: June 24, 2019, 04:44:07 pm »
Hello everyone!

Yes, this is yet another thread of some student trying to figure out what to spend his money on. I've done a fair bit of research over the last couple of months (mostly on these forums), but I still can't decide what oscilloscope to get.

I had actually purchased a Rigol DS1054Z, but that was so slow and unresponsive that I really did not like it at all. When I tried the FFT on a 10kHz oscillator and saw that I could not even go beyond 35dB SNR on it and I couldn't even see the harmonics (I had hoped for 45-50dB, I got 60dB with a Keysight DSOX3014T at Uni), I was so disillusioned that I returned it the same day.

That was about three months ago. Now, I still would like to buy an oscilloscope, because I've got quite a few projects that I have gotten annoyed with because I can't see what's actually going on in my circuits. I really, really want an oscilloscope.

So, my budget is about €500. But, that does not necessarily mean it all has to go to an oscilloscope. I've got quite an assortment of power adapters I'd like to get rid off, for example.

So, as for background: I'm a soon-to-be third-year Electrical Engineering student at University. I am very interested in tinkering with circuits involving analog signals (I even hope I might be able to design a low-bandwidth oscilloscope front-end at some point, because they are so freakin' cool), but I also use quite a lot of digital things (like Arduino, STM32, Raspberry Pi, that kind of stuff). The highest frequency signal any of my devices can create is the 100MHz maximum PWM signal generated by my BeagleBone Black, but I doubt I will need to measure that.

The four options I am currently looking at are:
Siglent SDS1104X-E @ €520: This is the real oscilloscope that I've determined to best suit my needs. It has four channels, good serial protocol decoding, a decent FFT from what I've seen (I couldn't find any material showing more than just that it exists) and the software should be a lot more responsive than the Rigol's. However, I am worried about the reliability and quality of the software.

Rigol DS2102E @ €500, with all upgrades: This oscilloscope has recently become available for a reduced price (almost like there's a successor coming out soon, hmmm...), but it only has two channels. It looks a lot more responsive than the DS1054Z though, and it seems Rigol has more mature software than Siglent. Still, based on pure specifications alone, it doesn't look like a good deal, but I wansn't able to find many reviews on it. The FFT is listed as only 2k points, but I couldn't find whether it was upgraded like the DS1054Z was. Even then, I probably won't use it _that_ much, so using my computer for better FFTs would seem acceptable if this really is the best choice.

Keysight EDUX1002A (2 analog channels only) @ €500: Yes, the whole Keysight-is-giving-uni-scopes-at-a-reduced-price-to-make-EE-students-Keysight-fanboys is paying off. The scopes at the university are a pleasure to use, always act logically and are just very nice overall. However, this one just seems very expensive for what I would be getting. It does all the basic things, but no high-resolution FFTs, it's relatively low-bandwidth, only optional serial decoding, no segmented memory, small memory to begin with... Of course, I could try to hack it once it is out of warranty, but I wouldn't want to try that before that time. Still, that Keysight logo inspires confidence.

Digilent/NI Analog Discovery 2, including probes and BNC board @ €210: This seems like a very tempting option. My desktop computer is right next to my workbench, so needing my computer would never be a problem. I've used an NI myDAQ before, and I really liked how I could post-process the data with Python. It has limited bandwidth and only two analog channels, that's the downside. As my BeagleBone Black can also function as a logic analyzer, I do not need that functionality all that much, but the bode plotter and great-looking FFT sure are tempting. Saving €300 would allow me to explore some more expensive projects and maybe get a power supply.

I am looking for a device that will allow me to finish my non-working projects (most of them are Arduino-level) by looking at the signals, and then starting new ones involving analog signals, mostly. I will be using my BeagleBone Black, Pynq Z2 (Zynq Z7000 FPGA board) and STM32 microcontrollers in those projects as well, but I don't think I'll be looking at square wave signals of over 2MHz any time soon. I want it to at least last through all of my Master's degree as well.

I'd rather spend the €500 now and be happy with my choice than spend €200 now and €500 next year, because this money is like a single-occurrence thing. Again, I am not going to change my mind on the DS1054Z no matter how many fans it has: I'm glad that there are lots of people who like it, but I have gotten spoiled by the great Keysight scopes at Uni.

If you would, please share your opinion on these choices. I don't really want to go any higher budget-wise, given that there other priorities money-wise as well. Even though I live in a student room, I have a spot a real scope would fit nicely, so that's not a consideration. I know I am pretty spoiled with the amazing oscilloscopes available at university (only for university work, unfortunately), but usability is a very important factor. The DS1054Z appeased my needs in all ways but speed and FFT, really. Last but not least: I live in the Netherlands, and the second-hand market for digital oscilloscopes here is pretty much non-existent.

Thank you for your time and effort. I hope you can tolerate a newbie like me asking a question like this.

TL;DR; Siglent SDS1104X-E, Rigol DS2102E, Keysight EDUX1002A or Analog Discovery 2 (at €300 less than the others) for a soon-to-be third-year EE student hoping to dip his toes in the water on analog circuit design.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2019, 04:58:30 pm »
I had actually purchased a Rigol DS1054Z. When I tried the FFT on a 10kHz oscillator and saw that I could not even go beyond 35dB SNR on it and I couldn't even see the harmonics (I had hoped for 45-50dB,

FFT isn't the Rigol's strong point but it depends on the firmware version. The original firmware was really terrible, now it's just not very good.

I got 60dB with a Keysight DSOX3014T at Uni)

OTOH you're comparing a $350 oscilloscope with a $3500 oscilloscope so it's not really fair.

I am very interested in tinkering with circuits involving analog signals (I even hope I might be able to design a low-bandwidth oscilloscope front-end at some point, because they are so freakin' cool), but I also use quite a lot of digital things (like Arduino, STM32, Raspberry Pi, that kind of stuff). The highest frequency signal any of my devices can create is the 100MHz maximum PWM signal generated by my BeagleBone Black, but I doubt I will need to measure that.

If you're interested in Arduinos and digital stuff then buying only two channels would be a big mistake. If you're really, really interested in FFTs then not buying the Analog discovery would be a big mistake (it has a 14-bit ADC).

The one device not on your list is the GW Instek GDS-1054B. It has 4 channels, it's not bad at analog stuff and it can be hacked to add a lot more bandwidth and features (you can use plugin modules from higher-end models on the base device). Best of all: It doesn't cost much more than the Rigol DS1054Z.

Read this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/possible-gw-instek-gds-1000b-hack/msg1256089/#msg1256089
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 05:13:00 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline tv84

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2019, 05:05:26 pm »
I congratulate you for your well resourced request for help. You deserve to be helped!

My opinion:

1. Siglent - the best of the 4 that you list. Still receiving very nice upgrades.
2. Rigol - Don't go there. I've sold mine very recently.
3. You should be accustomed because of your experiences but that Siglent is better and continues to improve.
4. I think you should go for a stand-alone.

If I hadn't bought the MSO5000, the option would be a SDS1104X-E.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 05:07:44 pm by tv84 »
 
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Offline graybeard

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2019, 05:06:20 pm »
I bought the Siglient SDS1104X-E for myself and I could not be happier with my purchase.  It is much easier to use than the R&S scope I am presently using at work, though not as capable, but that R&S RTB2004 is a $4K scope.  I had a dual beam (1MHz) Tektronix 503A when I was an undergrad.

For the FFT on scopes is of limited use because of the 8bit ADC that digitizes the signal places an inherent limit on dynamic range you can see.  Knowing that I have been happy with the SDS1104X-E FFT when I have used it.

The bode plot capability of the Siglent is excellent.  I just posted a video of measuring impedance using it along with a current probe and function generator.  Although I used a current probe you could easily build an op-amp circuit to sample the current and do the same thing.

Whatever you get get a real bench scope, and not some USB box that will become obsolete as OSs and computers evolve.  You will use the scope as a fundamental lab item for many years so get a good one!

Online nctnico

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2019, 05:09:46 pm »
The GDS-1054B is definitely one to consider. It costs 499 euro from Eleshop.nl and unlike the other 4 channel choices it has individual channel controls.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline RedFantomTopic starter

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2019, 05:29:31 pm »
Before I start: Thank you for all the replies so far, this is already very helpful! I'm going to clip the quotes for conciseness, as I'm used to doing that on other forums as well. Please let me know if that's not okay.

...
Like I said: I'm kind of spoiled. It was more the bad FFT on top of everything else (even with the firmware updated) that made me return it. For €379 wanted something I would want to use every day, even if for the real things I would still have to find some way to sneak into the university labs. I will definitely take another look at the GW Instek, but unfortunately it is €599. While I might be willing to pay that much if it's really a good investment, I was hoping to avoid it.

...
Thank you for sharing your opinion! The biggest thing I am missing in the Keysight is the decoding, and those licenses haven't been hacked yet, as far as I've seen (though I'm still working through the hacking thread). Did you have a Rigol from the DS2000 series? Why did you sell yours?

...
About the FFT: I was very surprised to see 60dB dynamic range on the Keysight at uni because that one also has just an 8-bit ADC. I wonder what trick they pulled there.

Making a current measurement like that is actually one of the things I am looking to do in the future :) . Do you need a Siglent function generator to do the bode plot, or will any sweeping function generator do? I suppose the oscilloscope could technically just measure the frequency of the incoming signal if there are two channels used, right?

The software of the Analog Discovery was looking quite decent, and it has proper Linux support, so I was hoping that I would be able to use it for a long time. Still, it is not open-source, so that is really quite a good point: If they ever stop providing binaries, I'd be out of luck...

...
Unfortunately the GDS-1054B is €599 at Eleshop. The 1072B is the one that is €499.


Also: I did not include the Owon XDS3104E (@€510) in my list because the consensus seems to be that they're awful. Is this the right decision?
 

Offline bob91343

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2019, 05:33:22 pm »
I purchased an HP digital 'scope used online for around $250.  It works great, has 500 MHz response, four channels, and some other really nice features (such as FFT).

So I encourage checking into used gear on ebay.  Also there are many consulting engineers who are retiring and getting rid of their equipment.  I recently got a nice 150 MHz Tek 2445 for nothing from such a guy.  I also won a drawing at a barbecue for a used 2215 Tek, 60 MHz.  I had to repair it but that was easy enough.

Incidentally, repairing broken gear is one of the best ways to learn electronics.  Troubleshooting calls into play many factors, including understanding how things work and what parts substitutions are viable.  You don't have to design stuff from scratch all the time.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2019, 05:50:01 pm »
...
Unfortunately the GDS-1054B is €599 at Eleshop. The 1072B is the one that is €499.
On sale at reichelt for 478 euro (inc VAT):
https://www.reichelt.nl/7-digitale-opslag-oscilloscoop-50-mhz-4-ch-gds-1054b-p176032.html
Perhaps Eleshop can math it otherwise ordering from Germany doesn't have to be a bad thing.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tv84

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2019, 05:54:16 pm »
Thank you for sharing your opinion! The biggest thing I am missing in the Keysight is the decoding, and those licenses haven't been hacked yet, as far as I've seen (though I'm still working through the hacking thread). Did you have a Rigol from the DS2000 series? Why did you sell yours?

Basically because of the 2 channels . 4-ch end up being useful. And since I managed a bigger budget to do an upgrade, I could afford a little improvement overall. But If I had only your budget, I would for the Siglent.

Batronix has it for 510€.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2019, 05:56:01 pm »
I will definitely take another look at the GW Instek, but unfortunately it is €599. While I might be willing to pay that much if it's really a good investment, I was hoping to avoid it.

Tequipment will sell you one for 338 Euros+TAX:

https://www.tequipment.net/Instek/GDS-1054B/Digital-Oscilloscopes/

(Set your country to Netherlands)

Plus they do EEVBLOG discounts...

 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2019, 06:07:05 pm »
Tequipment will sell you one for 338 Euros+TAX:

https://www.tequipment.net/Instek/GDS-1054B/Digital-Oscilloscopes/

(Set your country to Netherlands)

Plus they do EEVBLOG discounts...
Do they handle customs or is the customer supposed to do that?
 

Offline RedFantomTopic starter

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2019, 06:17:09 pm »
...
That would be great, if that were a serious option. I have looked around on eBay as well as Marktplaats (the Dutch eBay, they even own it), but the second-hand market is non-existent locally and the whole of Europe seems to be somewhat of a dead-zone when it comes to digital oscilloscopes. Buying from the US and other non-EU countries are a non-starter because of the taxes and import fees. I have asked around to my friends and family, but no luck. I almost had my hands on a DS1054Z yesterday for €200 (thinking I'd live with its limitations for that kind of money), but it was snapped up within minutes.

...
Thank you for pointing this out! That is definitely very interesting. I am getting a strong vibe here that everyone thinks the GW-Instek is better than the Siglent?

...
After the discount, shipping, taxes and handling fees it comes in at €468.88. I'd rather pay the additional €20 to get the European consumer laws that I know inside out, but thank you for the tip anyway!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 06:20:17 pm by RedFantom »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2019, 06:27:58 pm »
Do they handle customs or is the customer supposed to do that?

That link I sent you says: "Gegarandeerde totaalkosten (Geen extra kosten bij aflevering)"

Thank you for pointing this out! That is definitely very interesting. I am getting a strong vibe here that everyone thinks the GW-Instek is better than the Siglent?

Not necessarily, it's more that we believe it's about the same price as a Rigol DS1054Z if you shop around.

I'd rather pay the additional €20 to get the European consumer laws that I know inside out, but thank you for the tip anyway!

I can't seem to find any Insteks in Europe at reasonable prices. Batronix used to do them but I can't find any on their web site any more.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 06:31:58 pm by Fungus »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2019, 06:29:02 pm »
Thank you for sharing your opinion! The biggest thing I am missing in the Keysight is the decoding, and those licenses haven't been hacked yet, as far as I've seen (though I'm still working through the hacking thread). Did you have a Rigol from the DS2000 series? Why did you sell yours?

Basically because of the 2 channels . 4-ch end up being useful. And since I managed a bigger budget to do an upgrade, I could afford a little improvement overall. But If I had only your budget, I would for the Siglent.
That depends entirely what you value. The GDS-1054B has free-form math, signal filtering, full memory decoding (after hacking) and user selectable memory depths which the Siglent doesn't have. Especially the latter can be a real nuisance because you'll need to go back & forth between zooming in& out if you want to capture a lot of data but are interested in a detail at first. If you can set the memory depth to full whatever time/div setting you can look at a detail (for example part of a decoded packet) and once you are satisfied zoom out to check the rest without needing to capture another message (or look at how the details/contents of a message changes without needing the entire message on screen somehow).
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 06:33:52 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2019, 06:53:03 pm »
Although I don't own any of the models considered, based on conversations and specification sheets I too think that both the SDS1104X-E and the GDS1054B are your top contenders here.

The Siglent comes with most (if not all) options already enabled from factory and the GW Instek can be hacked to become comparable to the Siglent (IIRC it has a single 1GSPS ADC, while Siglent has two 1GSPS ADCs). However, in a comparison between the two, what turns me off a bit is that Instek does not offer any of the serial protocols as paid updates - they had them at a certain point but this was removed (check here). This may just be nothing, but would there be a good reason to remove them altogether from the scope?

You can always get reasonably priced PC-based logic analyzers for the popular low-speed serial protocols. 

An interesting thread is shown below if you have a good high pass filter that can overcome the S/N ratio lowered by the bickering among some regulars.   ;D
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/everyday-bench-scope-a-3-way-race-edux1002a-gds-1054b-sds1202x-e/
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Offline RedFantomTopic starter

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2019, 07:49:10 pm »
...
Yes, but if I go to checkout it calculates about €60 in shipping and handling fees and the ToS say I am responsible for paying the VAT (21%) myself :-/ . You don't think the €480 offer for the Instek in Germany is acceptable?

...
I'm pretty sure I saw the user-selectable memory depth in a video somewhere... I believe it is the automatic selection of memory depth that was missing, at least at the time of making that video. I can dig around for it in my browsing history, if you'd like.

...
I will definitely go over those threads, thank you! My BeagleBone Black can already do 14channels at 100MSps with Sigrok, which is quite nice. Still, I'd like to have the serial decoding option in the oscilloscope as well, as comparing digital to analog waveforms seems useful when working with ADCs and DACs...
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2019, 07:58:22 pm »
...
I will definitely go over those threads, thank you! My BeagleBone Black can already do 14channels at 100MSps with Sigrok, which is quite nice. Still, I'd like to have the serial decoding option in the oscilloscope as well, as comparing digital to analog waveforms seems useful when working with ADCs and DACs...
Thank you! I somehow missed that; I will break my BBB and validate this with Sigrok!  :-+

The simultaneous visualization of protocol decoding + analog domain is extremely useful to debug the initial stages of a design - any major flaws with noise margins, jitter, etc. can be tracked much more easily. After these are solved, the larger screen of a PC + a soft logic analyzer takes the edge. 
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Offline Wigo

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2019, 08:01:17 pm »
...
That would be great, if that were a serious option. I have looked around on eBay as well as Marktplaats (the Dutch eBay, they even own it), but the second-hand market is non-existent locally and the whole of Europe seems to be somewhat of a dead-zone when it comes to digital oscilloscopes. Buying from the US and other non-EU countries are a non-starter because of the taxes and import fees. I have asked around to my friends and family, but no luck. I almost had my hands on a DS1054Z yesterday for €200 (thinking I'd live with its limitations for that kind of money), but it was snapped up within minutes.

...
Thank you for pointing this out! That is definitely very interesting. I am getting a strong vibe here that everyone thinks the GW-Instek is better than the Siglent?

...
----

As you are from the Netherlands have a look at "eBay Kleinanzeigen". Most offers are based in Germany and the OScope section is really full. As i do not know how high the shipping would be (but i think it can not be worse that to Austria ;) )maybe you can find used TE there. (I have made the experience that more things are listed and the prices are a little bit more reasonable as on eBay itself.)
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2019, 08:55:12 pm »
I own many oscilloscopes including the Rigol DS1054Z which is full upgraded.  For $330, it is VERY difficult to beat that kind of functionality. It's probably capable of doing 99% of whatever you need right now, it's 4 channels, and it works.  If you're really struggling to afford a fancy scope, save your money and deal with the shortcomings of the DS1054Z.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2019, 10:51:47 pm »
I own many oscilloscopes including the Rigol DS1054Z which is full upgraded.  For $330, it is VERY difficult to beat that kind of functionality. It's probably capable of doing 99% of whatever you need right now, it's 4 channels, and it works.  If you're really struggling to afford a fancy scope, save your money and deal with the shortcomings of the DS1054Z.
Be sure to read the first post. :) He owned one and returned it the same day.
 

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2019, 11:19:50 pm »

Siglent SDS1104X-E @ €520: This is the real oscilloscope that I've determined to best suit my needs. It has four channels, good serial protocol decoding, a decent FFT from what I've seen (I couldn't find any material showing more than just that it exists) ................
Well I hadn't had a play with SDS1104X-E FFT with the latest firmware......wow, some significant improvements.....

10 MHz from SDG1032X BNC cable and 50 ohm Tek termination.
This shows the full screen mode with the source signal that can be hidden with the Exclusive mode.
Peak hold = ON



The FFT feature set is now more comprehensive with all sorts of markers, tables and in general easier to use.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 07:58:18 am by tautech »
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2019, 11:36:50 pm »
As RedFantom is unfamiliar with this forum it's probably good to note that member nctnico is a bit of a GW-Instek fan and that member tautech is a Siglent dealer.
 

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2019, 11:49:19 pm »
As RedFantom is unfamiliar with this forum it's probably good to note that member nctnico is a bit of a GW-Instek fan and that member tautech is a Siglent dealer.
:=\
That's pretty bloody obvious most would think and plainly visible in my profile personal text.

The OP stated this about X-E FFT: I couldn't find any material showing more than just that it exists
Did I not just demonstrate it does ?  :-//
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2019, 11:52:00 pm »
:=\
That's pretty bloody obvious most would think and plainly visible in my profile personal text.

The OP stated this about X-E FFT: I couldn't find any material showing more than just that it exists
Did I not just demonstrate it does ?  :-//
I'm just stating what OP may find useful information, not how one should interpret it.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: First oscilloscope for third-year EE student
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2019, 08:03:40 am »
I was very surprised to see 60dB dynamic range on the Keysight at uni because that one also has just an 8-bit ADC. I wonder what trick they pulled there.
There is no trick, just very common misunderstandings of what Fourier transforms do to the signal:
https://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-001.pdf
 


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