First picture on EEVblog of the new R&S MXO4 series oscilloscope :)

[tv84]

Early look and teardown by AddOhms for those interested:

Very cool review.

[tv84]

Is the Siglent HD hackable? I'm betting the R&S isn't.

The HD has been shown to be. You're missing classes.

Regarding the R&S, do you wanna bet one? 

[Martin72]

 

Hmmm.....A challenge....This would be worth alone to buy it...

[tomud]

As usual, it was a nice ride while it lasted.

Well, if you compare the 200MHz version its "only" a factor of 2 compared to a Siglent SDS2204X HD 

Wait 'til you add a few "accessories" like serial decoders, the AWG, or heaven forbid ... a bandwidth upgrade. 

Is the Siglent HD hackable? I'm betting the R&S isn't.

It doesn't really matter. Probably few hobbyists who hack oscilloscopes are able to spend 7600 euro + VAT on the oscilloscope. For me, the maximum expenditure is the SDS2000X HD level ... Although I was thinking about SDS6054A - if there was 12 bit at this price, maybe I would have the enthusiasm to collect that much 

The oscilloscope is really nice, maybe if R&S will give some special prices for hobbyists I will buy it 

[Martin72]

For me, the maximum expenditure is the SDS2000X HD level .

Me too, I was sweating blood while making the moneytransfer...
On the other hand my audio equipment had cost more than double and my interests are actually changing more in the direction of having good measure equipment at home.
But 9000€....Actually impossible to think of.

[Fungus]

Is the Siglent HD hackable? I'm betting the R&S isn't.

The HD has been shown to be. You're missing classes.

Sorry for not following every single Siglent thread... 

[tomud]

For me, the maximum expenditure is the SDS2000X HD level .

Me too, I was sweating blood while making the moneytransfer...
On the other hand my audio equipment had cost more than double and my interests are actually changing more in the direction of having good measure equipment at home.
But 9000€....Actually impossible to think of.

I'm better;) + 23% VAT instead of 19% in Germany, with such large amounts it is a good sum to pay
What's funny, if I bought in Batronix for a company, I would pay 0% VAT - ehh, this is social justice and how to pay taxes honestly 

[2N3055]

So it drops down from millions of triggers per second to 1.3k WFMS/s when you enable statistics?

For instance, SDS6000H12 PRO can't achieve 4.5MWFMS/s. It will go up to 150K. But if you enable 6 measurements, with full statistics, measuring over full buffer, an histicons (histograms) for all measurements it will not slow down at ALL.

This only shows how different architectures have it's strengths at different places..

What I like is that they seem to have implemented spectrum analysis that is independent from time domain... That could be interesting if there is mixed mode triggering..

One thing I don't like is that they fully embraced practice to release products that are not feature complete... At this moment it has less protocol decodes than Rigol DS1000Z, Zone button is not implemented ... and god knows what else we cannot see from short video.
Yes I know they will do it, but if I buy a 25000€ scope I would like it to work today not in two years, no matter how I trust them to be good on a promise. It is a simple matter that in that case it is prudent to buy it when it actually can perform tasks needed. In two years..

But it seems to be a nice step forward for R&S...

[Domitronic]

One thing I don't like is that they fully embraced practice to release products that are not feature complete... At this moment it has less protocol decodes than Rigol DS1000Z, Zone button is not implemented ... and god knows what else we cannot see from short video.
Yes I know they will do it, but if I buy a 25000€ scope I would like it to work today not in two years, no matter how I trust them to be good on a promise. It is a simple matter that in that case it is prudent to buy it when it actually can perform tasks needed. In two years..

That is really a problem today. Tektronix does the same with their new 2 Series. The only way out is to make your decision on what it is at the time you buy and not what might be in the future. Just don't assume anything will be fixed or added later on. And much less expect that anything will be free of charge. If even simple serial decoders come with additional cost, i would assume zone trigger will not be added free of charge but as an option later on.

[Martin72]

Tektronix does the same with their new 2 Series

Everyone does it, siglent, rigol also.
You buy a fully loaded scope in every case.
Even when you buy the basic model, every costs are into the price for it plus bonus.
And when you relase an option like freeing a prisioner, it will make more plus.
Therefore they can make "promo-offers" like all options including, without weeping in their cushions.
And therefore I don´t have any problems to free prisioners without paying ransom money.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

...i would assume zone trigger will not be added free of charge but as an option later on.

Zone will be a free upgrade.  And it's really good 

-Rich

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

So it drops down from millions of triggers per second to 1.3k WFMS/s when you enable statistics?

For instance, SDS6000H12 PRO can't achieve 4.5MWFMS/s. It will go up to 150K. But if you enable 6 measurements, with full statistics, measuring over full buffer, an histicons (histograms) for all measurements it will not slow down at ALL.

This only shows how different architectures have it's strengths at different places..

What I like is that they seem to have implemented spectrum analysis that is independent from time domain... That could be interesting if there is mixed mode triggering..

One thing I don't like is that they fully embraced practice to release products that are not feature complete... At this moment it has less protocol decodes than Rigol DS1000Z, Zone button is not implemented ... and god knows what else we cannot see from short video.
Yes I know they will do it, but if I buy a 25000€ scope I would like it to work today not in two years, no matter how I trust them to be good on a promise. It is a simple matter that in that case it is prudent to buy it when it actually can perform tasks needed. In two years..

But it seems to be a nice step forward for R&S...

I hear what you're saying, but I guess I like that we have the ability to turn so many things on in hardware over time.  So even if it isn't done today in hardware (say measurement statistics) we can add that as needed/asked for.  And since this is a new platform, it will mature over time.  I think people will be impressed at what we can do with it and I sort of love when new firmware is released on something like my phone (or even cars with OTA updates) and new features and capabilities come about.  But I may be in the minority.

With respect to the frequency domain - it is fully independent, but is still correlated to the time domain.  You can do some really powerful things with it today (with more to come - free even ).

-Rich

[Fungus]

What's funny, if I bought in Batronix for a company, I would pay 0% VAT - ehh, this is social justice and how to pay taxes honestly 

It's not "cheaper" for a company, they'd reclaim the VAT anyway if they bought it in their own country.

European VAT rules are just there to avoid inter-country paperwork - you don't pay VAT on the purchase but you also don't get to reclaim it in your tax returns.

[Domitronic]

Tektronix does the same with their new 2 Series

Everyone does it, siglent, rigol also.
You buy a fully loaded scope in every case.
Even when you buy the basic model, every costs are into the price for it plus bonus.
And when you relase an option like freeing a prisioner, it will make more plus.
Therefore they can make "promo-offers" like all options including, without weeping in their cushions.
And therefore I don´t have any problems to free prisioners without paying ransom money.

Thats not what i meant. Selling options is fine for me of course. There is cost involved to develop software options and its clear for me that it costs money. For example if a bode plot function saves a lot of time at work because i don't have to sweep it manually this money is justified.

Tektronix released the 2 series without the MSO function implemented. Advertising features that are not there but might be in the future is the problem. At least R&S doesn't promise anything in particular and just advertise what is already there. What i wanted to say is make your decisions on what is already there and not what my be in the future. If you need a MSO with 16 digital channels, simply don't buy Tek 2 series today. If you need other decoders/options than MXO4 has today, don't buy it today.

[nctnico]

So it drops down from millions of triggers per second to 1.3k WFMS/s when you enable statistics?

For instance, SDS6000H12 PRO can't achieve 4.5MWFMS/s. It will go up to 150K. But if you enable 6 measurements, with full statistics, measuring over full buffer, an histicons (histograms) for all measurements it will not slow down at ALL.

This only shows how different architectures have it's strengths at different places..

What I like is that they seem to have implemented spectrum analysis that is independent from time domain... That could be interesting if there is mixed mode triggering..

One thing I don't like is that they fully embraced practice to release products that are not feature complete... At this moment it has less protocol decodes than Rigol DS1000Z, Zone button is not implemented ... and god knows what else we cannot see from short video.
Yes I know they will do it, but if I buy a 25000€ scope I would like it to work today not in two years, no matter how I trust them to be good on a promise. It is a simple matter that in that case it is prudent to buy it when it actually can perform tasks needed. In two years..

But it seems to be a nice step forward for R&S...

I hear what you're saying, but I guess I like that we have the ability to turn so many things on in hardware over time.  So even if it isn't done today in hardware (say measurement statistics) we can add that as needed/asked for.  And since this is a new platform, it will mature over time.  I think people will be impressed at what we can do with it and I sort of love when new firmware is released on something like my phone (or even cars with OTA updates) and new features and capabilities come about.  But I may be in the minority.

IMHO the most important thing is that what functionality is offered today, is working as expected / reliable. Whether the current feature set matches your current buying requirements is another matter. From a business perspective I think it is not wise to buy test equipment that misses features you need today. I also think that adding features in the future won't affect any buying decission other than having more features makes an instrument more likely to fit certain requirements at some point in time.

I do get though that you need to release a product to the market at some point; a good moment is when the basic functionality is working up to a level where the product is interesting enough to buy. If you leave it up to engineers, a product is never finished 

[Martin72]

This can be seen twice..

The rest I can sign, we bought "raw" siglent sds2k+ scopes without any additional options - Because we don´t need them.

[Someone]

If the waveform update rate is really high for all settings then this maybe the first scope that has both high resolution and fast waveform update rate (>1 MS/sec).

And don't forget deep memory... Keysight is having a very bad day today.

as if the EXR models never existed! Much more comparable on the memory axis, ups and downs on other characteristics.

Compared to the competition, R&S are pushing products with broader capabilities covering more ground in a single instrument. Easy to pick one dimension against almost any other specific scope where it excels, since the multidimensional polar diagram (that some manufacturers love for their comparisons) is so large in area, but with only incremental improvement over the best one-trick pony in any one dimension.

[TheDefpom]

Early look and teardown by AddOhms for those interested:



We're working to get Dave and Shahriar permanent units as well - we're still starting to get them shipped out.  Hope they'll have them shortly (@Dave - Tristen will be in touch if he hasn't already been).

-Rich

I’m a test gear reviewer too you know… I could use one to look at as well.

[nctnico]

If the waveform update rate is really high for all settings then this maybe the first scope that has both high resolution and fast waveform update rate (>1 MS/sec).

And don't forget deep memory... Keysight is having a very bad day today.

as if the EXR models never existed! Much more comparable on the memory axis, ups and downs on other characteristics.

Keysight EXR is in a different price bracket and it is PC based as well.

[Someone]

If the waveform update rate is really high for all settings then this maybe the first scope that has both high resolution and fast waveform update rate (>1 MS/sec).

And don't forget deep memory... Keysight is having a very bad day today.

as if the EXR models never existed! Much more comparable on the memory axis, ups and downs on other characteristics.

Keysight EXR is in a different price bracket and it is PC based as well.

Really? want to continue with your misleading statements? EXR's are priced around the same as MSOX4000's (used as a "direct" comparison).

MXO vs MSOX4000 vs EXR USD pricing
4ch 500MHz, 17,205 vs 22,370 vs 22,579
4ch 1GHz, 21,310 vs 26,883 vs 28,255

30% more, retail, comparing a just released (and competitive) model. By your argument the MSOX4000 isn't a target for comparison. Unsurprisingly, new released product does more for somewhat less $$. That's not a different price bracket, or a different performance/tier, or a different target market. They have quite the overlap. As I said in the full quote:

Compared to the competition, R&S are pushing products with broader capabilities covering more ground in a single instrument. Easy to pick one dimension against almost any other specific scope where it excels, since the multidimensional polar diagram (that some manufacturers love for their comparisons) is so large in area, but with only incremental improvement over the best one-trick pony in any one dimension.

There isn't a single direct competitor you can pick out, most brands have 2+ different model lines overlapping this space. R&S are doing good things with well rounded designs, better value for small companies that don't have a fleet of different tools to pick from.

[maxwell3e10]

Keysight's EXR or other "mid-range" models don't go any faster than 200k waveforms/sec. Here is a handy summary.

But: MXO4 slowing down to 1300 waveforms/sec when statistics is enabled is a major problem! What happens when the averaging is turned on?   I can see that the most common use for fast waveform update  is to catch rare events.  But another major use is to quickly accumulate data, such as average and standard deviation.

[tomud]

What's funny, if I bought in Batronix for a company, I would pay 0% VAT - ehh, this is social justice and how to pay taxes honestly 

It's not "cheaper" for a company, they'd reclaim the VAT anyway if they bought it in their own country.

European VAT rules are just there to avoid inter-country paperwork - you don't pay VAT on the purchase but you also don't get to reclaim it in your tax returns.

I know how it works because I also have a company ... Except that so far I have not bought hobby equipment on invoice (although I can - you can see honesty does not pay off too much). However, there is also a subtle difference. Do not pay VAT and pay and wait X time for the return I am ignoring the fact that stupid EU VAT regulations (including the zero rate) are the best for thieves who defraud VAT refunds. Another bullshit recipe that I have to pay more VAT online (when buying for hobby use), it is more profitable for me to go to Germany (producing some CO2, NOx... ) and buy an oscilloscope with a lower VAT rate... ...but this is not a topic for this forum.

[goaty]

I got the RTB2004-COM4 promo, so why not wait for the MXO4-COM4 package....

[Fungus]

I know how it works because I also have a company ... Except that so far I have not bought hobby equipment on invoice (although I can - you can see honesty does not pay off too much).

In theory I could get the RTB2004EDU with a ton of options for 1790 Euros.

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004EDU.html

All the bits bought separately as an ordinary citizen would be over 6000 Euros.

I hate the shiny screen though, so... 


Edit: A day later and the price is now 2233 Euros! I should have snapped one up... 

[2N3055]

I know how it works because I also have a company ... Except that so far I have not bought hobby equipment on invoice (although I can - you can see honesty does not pay off too much).

In theory I could get the RTB2004EDU with a ton of options for 1790 Euros.

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004EDU.html

All the bits bought separately as an ordinary citizen would be over 6000 Euros.

I hate the shiny screen though, so... 

Don't forget it's only 70MHz..