First scope, lost in the reviews

[ivan747]

Spend ~$330 now, and get a DSO1052

Only from the official Rigol NA, not from China. Otherwise you get no warranty.

in 3-5 years, upgrade to something better if needed, maybe recouping some part of my ~$330 by selling the 1000 series. Or save a bit longer, buy something higher end (the 2000 series) and have something that will last me longer, but may be way overkill, in which case I got something nicer, but spending way more.

Are you 100% you will be into electronics for more than 3-5 years? If you are like me you change hobbies every once in a while. My only exception is electronics because there are half a dozen of fields I can alternate between.

You can always sell your gear. The DS2000 series will probably keep its value more because it is new and likely to be in service. You can sell the DS1000E series as well but by then, the models will probably be discontinued.

Weight the factors in. There are many ways to do this like pros/cons lists and such.

It's the "buy a radioshack dmm vs buy a fluke". Sure, the 'Shack DMM probably will do everything you want, but if you need a Fluke in the future, you're stuck with a Shack DMM that you either have to sell, or just look at thinking "why did I buy that?"

Nah, a 'Shack DMM equivalent would be a DSO nano. This is more like Fluke 117 vs. Fluke 87V. You can keep the Rigol DS1052E and get a DS2000 series in 5 years if the 1052 costs too little to make the sale worthy.

The DS2000 series have a Trigger Out. If you connect that to the Trigger Input on the DS1052E you effectively get a dual timebase 4 channel oscilloscope. Neat!

If you feel you deserve a DS2000, get it. If not, get it when you feel you deserve it, if this becomes your permanent hobby you will eventually want one.

But, I'm a tinkerer, so the 1000 series will probably work fine for me for everything I want to do. *sigh*

Yeah me too. But I got this oscilloscope and I am expecting it to last until I graduate from college. I start in august and it ends 3 and a half years later.


Another alternative to the DS2000 series is getting a DS1102E, a logic analyzer and/or an analog oscilloscope depending on what you need. As a bonus, it fills up your empty bench a bit. 

Ivan

[staze]

in 3-5 years, upgrade to something better if needed, maybe recouping some part of my ~$330 by selling the 1000 series. Or save a bit longer, buy something higher end (the 2000 series) and have something that will last me longer, but may be way overkill, in which case I got something nicer, but spending way more.

Are you 100% you will be into electronics for more than 3-5 years? If you are like me you change hobbies every once in a while. My only exception is electronics because there are half a dozen of fields I can alternate between.

And there it is. I change hobbies. I don't know how long I'll use the scope. Especially since I have a child on the way. I've always been interested in electronics, but I've never spent that much time learning them. Macro stuff I can do (home wiring, etc). Micro stuff I've always dabbled in (replacing caps on failed monitors, etc). A scope is something I've wanted for a bit, especially since my grandfather used to write the manuals for Tek scopes (yup, good ol' days when Tek was pretty much THE employeer in Beaverton, Oregon). =)

One of the first things I was going to try to do was look at my home AC power for harmonics (looking for signals that would interfere with X10 type communication). So FFT would be needed, but the 1000 series does that.

Think at this point, I'm going to just going to save, and figure it out once I have the money. I do need a bench power supply as well.

*sigh* I guess the problem is... I'm not strapped for cash. I just have to save for it a bit longer (read, as you said, saving marriage).

[EEVblog]

Now the issue with the DS2072 is that if is twice the price and is not yet proven, although it's quality suggests it can overlast a DS1052E. And don't forget software will contain more bugs than usual for now.

No doubt. But remember that you are getting a massive increase in feature set and usability for the extra money, it's not a simple replacement, it's a huge step up.
The firmware fixes will come if they are required.

[EEVblog]

It's the "buy a radioshack dmm vs buy a fluke". Sure, the 'Shack DMM probably will do everything you want, but if you need a Fluke in the future, you're stuck with a Shack DMM that you either have to sell, or just look at thinking "why did I buy that?"

Not quite, because the Radio Shack meter will have the same features (or often more) as the Fluke.
With Fluke you are paying for a bare-bones reliable well built and well proven design, not extra features.
That's not the case with the Rigol DS2000, you are paying for a big host of extra features and potential expandability with the options.

[staze]

Not quite, because the Radio Shack meter will have the same features (or often more) as the Fluke.
With Fluke you are paying for a bare-bones reliable well built and well proven design, not extra features.
That's not the case with the Rigol DS2000, you are paying for a big host of extra features and potential expandability with the options.

Hmm... true, except the count increase. My old 22-812 had PC connectivity over RS-232, but it was only a 4k count meter. My Fluke 189 is a 50k count meter. =)

Now, that said, I've been watching some reviews of the DS1102E, and it LOOKS like it'll do all I could want for the foreseeable. Only thing that would be awesome from the 2000 series (other than the much better screen), is the serial and I2C decode, but those are pay-for options anyway (after the 30 day trial), and I can't see using those at the moment anyway. *sigh* Not being an EE (hell, I got my degree in Political Science (aka Government))... gar. The 2000 series is hella sexy... damn pre-emptive buyers remorse. =)

So, what KILLER "app" or feature does the 2000 series do that the 1000 series won't? Obviously physical differences aside (I know the screen is much bigger, etc).

[EEVblog]

Hmm... true, except the count increase.

Not so.
You can get a 50,000 count Uni-T or other brand for under $100.
The closest Fluke with 4 1/2 digit is the Fluke 80 series, and it's only 20,000 count, for what, 3-4 times the price?

So, what KILLER "app" or feature does the 2000 series do that the 1000 series won't? Obviously physical differences aside (I know the screen is much bigger, etc).

Off hand:
- 14 times the memory standard
- Segmented memory (effectively amplifying that 14Mbit by several orders)
- Waveform replay
- advanced PC control (see the awesome firmware a forum member has written)
- Ethernet standard
- Low noise 500uV front end
- intensity graded display (analog-like display)
- order of magnitude better waveform update speed
- a whole host of advanced measurement capability

Plus more.
All for double the price.
IMO, it's a no-brainer.

[ivan747]

Hmm... true, except the count increase.

Not so.
You can get a 50,000 count Uni-T or other brand for under $100.
The closest Fluke with 4 1/2 digit is the Fluke 80 series, and it's only 20,000 count, for what, 3-4 times the price?

So, what KILLER "app" or feature does the 2000 series do that the 1000 series won't? Obviously physical differences aside (I know the screen is much bigger, etc).

Off hand:
- 14 times the memory standard
- Segmented memory (effectively amplifying that 14Mbit by several orders)
- Waveform replay
- advanced PC control (see the awesome firmware a forum member has written)
- Ethernet standard
- Low noise 500uV front end
- intensity graded display (analog-like display)
- order of magnitude better waveform update speed
- a whole host of advanced measurement capability

Plus more.
All for double the price.
IMO, it's a no-brainer.

It is... if you have the money
I sadly don't 

But
If you are like me, you can get the DS1102E and wait for the right time to score an analog scope, if you still have interest in electronics. Now you have the intensity graded display. The Tektronix 2555 has a 500µV frontend as well. If I ever get a change in the next 5 years, I will get one of those or another Tek 2000 series. Not to be against you Dave, just a suggestion.

Ethernet might attract someone who's into IT. I admit that.

If you decide for the DS1000 series, you could get a logic analyzer as well, as you go along. A Saelae Logic as Dave reviewed, is a good idea if you ever want to program microcontrollers. If you are a programmer, I really recommend getting into MCUs. I wish I had the talent to program properly.

The DS2072 is great stuff, in my opinion. If I ever get a chance to select my equipment for my lab in a company, I would definitely get one of those.

[travellerw]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned.. The 1052 is still "Upgrade-able" to an 1102... Like I said my scope is 1 month old and came with the latest firmware. I upgraded it no problem.. A little extra savings!

[MacAttak]

staze, you keep mentioning that you also need to get a bench PS. Do you not have one at all? If not, then IMO that's a pretty darn critical piece of equipment for most of us - on par with having a scope and only slightly less important than having one or two DMMs and a soldering iron. I would do some homework on that and pick out what you think will suffice for your needs, and keep that in mind as you consider budget for the scope. Bench PSU costs can vary greatly depending on what you need out of them.

But if you already have a PSU and just want to upgrade it or get a second one, then it's not such a big deal. As long as you have *something* capable of delivering an appropriate source of power for what you are doing.


FWIW, I was strongly considering the 2000 series too when I decided to go for a 1052E. The money actually isn't a problem for me in general - it's just that overall I have poured a ton of cash into this hobby over the past 6 months. At least $3,000 - not including the new scope - on things from PSU to solder and hot air stations, assorted power and hand tools, furniture, books, educational kits, mcu boards and modules, countless online orders for parts from Digikey/Adafruit/Ebay, PCB fabrication for circuit designs, and even a mid-size 3D printer to handle creating custom mechanical parts and project enclosures. All those little things add up very quickly.

I rarely lose interest in my hobbies, and within a couple of years I'm sure I will have outgrown this scope. So when the time comes, I will just buy a better one - but for now, the 50MHz low-end 1052 will do, and it is much more easily absorbed into my budget.

[ivan747]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned.. The 1052 is still "Upgrade-able" to an 1102... Like I said my scope is 1 month old and came with the latest firmware. I upgraded it no problem.. A little extra savings!

I thought it wasn't and went for the 1102E   

[casper.bang]

[DS2072] does look like a great piece of kit but for many hobbyists who value their savings and marriages I think the 1052 will continue to be the Model T of the oscilloscope world for a while yet!

Are we really drawn out in an all or nothing game between the €284/$364* Rigol 1052E and the €845/$1083* Rigol 2072? I mean, that's a whopping €561/$719 price differential here! I'd like something a little better than the 1052E yet not as overkill as the 2072 which I would probably never use to its fullest (and couldn't justify getting).

Thus, the Owon SDS7102V remains of interest to me. At €489/$627 it sits under the middle marker between the 1052E and 2072 (and qualifies for free shipping, unlike the 1052E). Forgetting the 2072 for a moment, don't you get very interesting features in the Owon for the extra 70% over the 1052E? (10x longer memory, larger screen, one ADC, lower noise, portability, better probes...)

I'd be interested in trying to highlight the candidates in this €400-500/$500-600 range and judging by some of the other comments in this thread, I am not the only one.

* Prices from batronix.com, the cheapest source in Europe.

[casper.bang]

If you decide for the DS1000 series, you could get a logic analyzer as well, as you go along. A Saelae Logic as Dave reviewed, is a good idea if you ever want to program microcontrollers.

Yeah it's pretty clear that a stand-alone logic analyzer is much better value than [oscilloscope] integrated ones, and more likely to receive software updates. I noticed that after the Saelae Logic16 was introduced, the Logic8 is now only €119/$149. Being a software guy, having native client software for Windows/Mac/Linux is pretty awesome, as is having official access to an SDK.

Biggest downside appears to be that the voltage levels are quite limited, meaning classic rs232 signals are off limits (you'd have to build a small frontend with voltage dividers and potentially some inverters).

[rf-loop]

Thus, the Owon SDS7102V remains of interest to me. At €489/$627 it sits under the middle marker between the 1052E and 2072 (and qualifies for free shipping, unlike the 1052E). Forgetting the 2072 for a moment, don't you get very interesting features in the Owon for the extra 70% over the 1052E? (10x longer memory, larger screen, one ADC, lower noise, portability, better probes...)

I'd be interested in trying to highlight the candidates in this €400-500/$500-600 range and judging by some of the other comments in this thread, I am not the only one.

* Prices from batronix.com, the cheapest source in Europe.

About Owon: SDS7102(V)
It have 2x10M max capture memory. Yes both channels have 10M max.  Memory is also full speed! With one channel use it can do 1GSa/s using 500us/div - 2ns/div and with 2 channel use 1ms/div -2ns/div 500MSa/s for both channels.

Siglent:  With newest FW they are not bad. It is good to realize also that old reviews are old.  Building quality in outside and insidew is also good in new SDS1000CNL/CML/CFL models.
UI is quite fast and good features. Even there is real dual timebase! This means that in ALT mode both traces have own trigger AND also separate timebase!  There is also trigger for both edges. Of course vertical have fine adjustment also.  Factory tell waveform update rate is 2000wfms/s max.  Equal time sampling also works fine with new FW.  Both channels have also separate adjustable DSP filters.  Good measurements and also tracking cursors etc.

(These old 5.7" display models are going Obsolete and  Siglent stop them after 30.April.2013).
Siglent CML models have max 2M shared capture memory and it is half speed as example in Rigol DS1000E series where is 1M.  For low speed Record some Siglent models have separate 6M memory + very low speeds it can also capture directly to USB memory. (of course it have also this usual recorder as "frame record" for higher speeds but it have (as usual) dead time between frames. (6M recorder is continuous data stream without breaks but can use only with low horizontal speeds)

Siglent have also developed they after sales customer care (Of course distributors need be main role for after sales care). Example public FW updates, service manuals and also spare parts available.

If look more expensive scopes. New Rigol DS2000 series looks very good.

[EEVblog]

Siglent have also developed they after sales customer care (Of course distributors need be main role for after sales care). Example public FW updates, service manuals and also spare parts available.

Siglent have service manuals?
Genuine downloads, or pirated copies?

[casper.bang]

Siglent have service manuals?
Genuine downloads, or pirated copies?

Pirated from where? I thought you said 8 months ago in the TrioSmartCal video that Siglent is the single largest OEM who design and manufacture for BK Precision, Lecroy, Atten etc?

[EEVblog]

(These old 5.7" display models are going Obsolete and  Siglent stop them after 30.April.2013).

Yes, no more SDS1000C/D/CM/CN/CF/CE
http://www.siglent.com/en/news/detail.aspx?id=100000050523437&nodecode=119002001

[EEVblog]

Pirated from where?
I thought you said 8 months ago in the TrioSmartCal video that Siglent is the single largest OEM who design and manufacture for BK Precision, Lecroy, Atten etc?

I'm talking about service manuals.
If Siglent service manuals exist, then they are either:
a) An official version from Siglent designed for either public or limited deaer/service centre release
or
b) Some sort of pirated or leaked schematic or documents etc, or maybe even some revere engineered thing?

 

[rf-loop]

Pirated from where?
I thought you said 8 months ago in the TrioSmartCal video that Siglent is the single largest OEM who design and manufacture for BK Precision, Lecroy, Atten etc?

I'm talking about service manuals.
If Siglent service manuals exist, then they are either:
a) An official version from Siglent designed for either public or limited deaer/service centre release
or
b) Some sort of pirated or leaked schematic or documents etc, or maybe even some revere engineered thing?

 

Available officially. Named as Service manual (limited public versions of course)  and yes, no schematics. Just like also many others today.  Explanation about specs, calibration check, calibration procedure using equipments and computer, simply diagnose and something about mechanical construction.

Of course, this kind of cheap products have not  component level information and  component level repair manual.
Who want repair these component level and need schematics - no one? Least 60 eur/h normal price for working hour.  If ther is fail (otside of warranty), just put to recycle and buy new or change new spare part  TFT or PSU or main board or front panel. Available from Siglent. If some mechanical accidental thing happends there can of course buy knobs and other parts, even bacside or front side of scope. 

http://www.siglent.com/en/


go to service, download center, service manuals

SDG5000 Service Manual
SDG1000 Service Manual
SDS1000CML Service Manual (include DL/CNL/CML)
SDS1000CFL Service Manual

User manuals, software, FW etc just for download.

Of course these young companies  like Siglent do (slowly) some kind of "self developing".
What I have see Siglent try slowly growup  from children phase to forward.  Least they show signs that they want try...

[EEVblog]

Available officially. Named as Service manual (limited public verdsions of course)  and yes, no schematics. Just like also many others today.  Explanation about specs, calibration check, calibration procedure using equipments and computer, simply diagnose and something about mechanical construction.

Blah!

Agilent have those too:
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/75019-97039.pdf

[rf-loop]

Available officially. Named as Service manual (limited public verdsions of course)  and yes, no schematics. Just like also many others today.  Explanation about specs, calibration check, calibration procedure using equipments and computer, simply diagnose and something about mechanical construction.

Blah!

Agilent have those too:
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/75019-97039.pdf

Yes, but now we talk about chinese cheap Siglent and this is in my opinion some small sign about some advantage. Short time ago there was negative opinions becouse total lack of FW download.  Now there is.  Now there is also tiny service information - it is also better than nothing. Things change.

[staze]

staze, you keep mentioning that you also need to get a bench PS. Do you not have one at all? If not, then IMO that's a pretty darn critical piece of equipment for most of us - on par with having a scope and only slightly less important than having one or two DMMs and a soldering iron. I would do some homework on that and pick out what you think will suffice for your needs, and keep that in mind as you consider budget for the scope. Bench PSU costs can vary greatly depending on what you need out of them.

I don't have a PSU. I was looking at the CSI3005x5. Or a cheap ATTEN or something. Wasn't really thinking anything TOO nice, but relatively stable. But a PSU, even the Circuit Specialists one, is only $130, which is a much lower amount than the Scope. I am trying to keep my expenses below $150 a month. So, saving for a scope is a time commitment.

FWIW, I was strongly considering the 2000 series too when I decided to go for a 1052E. The money actually isn't a problem for me in general - it's just that overall I have poured a ton of cash into this hobby over the past 6 months. At least $3,000 - not including the new scope - on things from PSU to solder and hot air stations, assorted power and hand tools, furniture, books, educational kits, mcu boards and modules, countless online orders for parts from Digikey/Adafruit/Ebay, PCB fabrication for circuit designs, and even a mid-size 3D printer to handle creating custom mechanical parts and project enclosures. All those little things add up very quickly.

Good to know. And yes, I'm leaning more and more to the 1000 series. Part of the issue is a psychological issue. To spend $350 for a scope now, and maybe need something bigger in the future, or to save for the bigger one and buy it, and maybe never use it past what the cheaper model would have done (which basically means I've wasted the money). The other issue is a tend to change hobbies. Now, I know I could resell the scope, and I know I can use the scope for all kinds of things, but.

*sigh* More responses.

[staze]

Thus, the Owon SDS7102V remains of interest to me. At €489/$627 it sits under the middle marker between the 1052E and 2072 (and qualifies for free shipping, unlike the 1052E). Forgetting the 2072 for a moment, don't you get very interesting features in the Owon for the extra 70% over the 1052E? (10x longer memory, larger screen, one ADC, lower noise, portability, better probes...)

Only issue is, seems a lot easier to spend 30% more and get the 2072 if it's only 30%. 100% more, however.

[staze]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned.. The 1052 is still "Upgrade-able" to an 1102... Like I said my scope is 1 month old and came with the latest firmware. I upgraded it no problem.. A little extra savings!

So, you did the bit-swapped firmware hack, or something else? My only concern is that Rigol, like Intel (or AMD) is basically testing all their production scopes as 100mhz versions, and those that don't test out get marked as the 50mhz version, or those that do really well get marked as the 150mhz version, etc. Chip makers have done this for years... they're all the same die, they just clock them for what they will pass (hence one chip overclocks amazingly well, where one won't overclock for crap).

[staze]

Added a poll. Kind of wish it could be weighted, but oh well. Let me know if there should be another option. Seems like this boils down to an almost coin flip.

[casper.bang]

Only issue is, seems a lot easier to spend 30% more and get the 2072 if it's only 30%. 100% more, however.

...or 200% more in my case, making it completely irrelevant to me as a first scope. I really just want a revamp of the 1052, and the recent Siglent's do look like updated 1052's (sample memory, screen, dedicated buttons, PC interfacing etc.) with a menu system a la Rigol's that looks superior to Owon's (not a fan of all the cheap micro membrane buttons and lack of LED status in these).

Not sure the poll is fair; as I mentioned the difference is closer to 200% than 100% more (meaning you'd need to save up 5-6 months).