First scope, lost in the reviews

[staze]

Okay, there are a lot of reviews (on this site, as well as others) of scopes between $300 and $600 US. The ones that jump out are the classic Rigol DS1102E (and it's little brother), the Hantek DSO5102B (and it's siblings), and the Owon SDS7102. Then, of course, there are the other ones that are the same scope, just a different brand name. But it seems, being in the states, that these are the big 3 in the ~$600 or less arena.

From what I can gather, the Rigol is pretty solid, but at this point, a bit dated (small screen, no real standout features, etc). The Hantek is extremely hackable (as per the 100 page thread on it here). And the Owon is similar to the Hantek with a few more bells and whistles, but is also missing some things (which I guess the company is adding now with newer firmwares). Also, I note that all these units are from at least 2011 and older. Coming from computers, 2 year old models are pretty old. How often are scope models updated?

I don't really have a list of things the scope MUST do, since it's my first, and I'm really teaching myself this stuff. I'm a Systems Admin by profession (which is one thing that really draws me to the Hantek), but I've always dabbled, poorly, in electronics and would like to get into it more. Having a usable and inexpensive scope seems like it would be a good tool and would probably be all I would need for years.

Anyone have any thoughts? And before it comes up, I really can't justify the Rigol 2000 series (DS2072) unless there is something REALLY compelling (for a beginner) about it that these others don't have. The price point is twice what I was otherwise looking at. =(

Thanks for your time.

[casper.bang]

I'm in the same unfortunate position as you are; except I have actually just played with a Rigol.  You are right, it's pretty solid but I *have* to warn you against the horrible noise the DS1000/1100 serie produces... also, the screen is pretty small.

In spite of it's mixed reviews, the Owon SDS serie is my current favorite candidate, due to it being quiet, having a large screen and 10M sample memory (good for capturing serial data). I am not in a hurry though, will monitor these threads for a few weeks before committing. In the perfect world, tomorow Rigol would introduce a revamped DS1000/1100 serie with bigger screens and more sample memory, which would make the choice much simpler.

[casper.bang]

Update to my previous comment about the screen size: Mark's (marmad's) review of the Owon device includes screenshots which quite clearly demonstrates the difference between a larger screen + resolution (yes I know the waveform resolution is the same 8 bit).

[staze]

Yeah, I have a month or more to make the jump.

Looking at the 2000 series Rigol, it seems like it pretty much brings the Rigol up to par (if not beyond) the Owon and Hantek. But again, it's nearly twice the price of those units. Maybe their name has earned them that cachet.

The Owon does seem very capable... I just keep looking back at the 100+ page thread about the Hantek and how hackable it is. Do we know if you can hack to get better bandwidth? Sounds like a big advantage is there's a single ADC which I guess produces less noise?

But all that just makes me think, the Owon is the newest of these three... so it's grown off the previous two. I also kind of dig the fact it can run off battery (though I don't see myself using that a lot (but then, maybe I would)).

Good to know about the Rigol. While I'm thinking about moving my bench to the garage, until that time, a loud fan would be kind of annoying. Wonder if the Rigol 2k has that issue.

Any thoughts people have would be awesome.

[staze]

Oh, and I guess there's Instek too, which sounds like it might have really been the catalyst in the inexpensive scope market.

Interestingly, I noted a couple sub $1500 Tek scopes that looked a LOT like Rigol.

[MacAttak]

Don't get caught up in the trap of buying anything above what you know you need.

Are you buying a scope because hacking it is interesting? If not, then don't consider that as a differentiator. Does the higher screen resolution really matter for you? If not, then that feature isn't mandatory either. What do you intend to do with this scope? Do you even need anything more than 50MHz bandwidth at this point? Etc.

At that point then you can really compare apples to apples. Keep in mind that if you are a beginner then you *probably* don't really know what your needs will be a year or two from now (heck - you might not even really know what they are today). So don't assume you need to blow money on features you might not ever care about. From what I can tell, most folks outgrow their "starter scope" after a couple of years, and by then they really know what they want/need. And well-kept scopes seem to hold their value reasonably well (though you may end up just keeping two or more around).


I recently picked up a Rigol 1052E because it was the cheapest starter digital unit with the features I care about for now, in a device small enough to fit on my current (cramped) workbench. Maybe in a couple of years I will feel a need for higher bandwidth, more channels, more features, or even just a bigger screen. By then the technology will have advanced and I will be able to get more value for my money. And maybe I won't need anything better than this - in which case I saved a ton of money by not buying features I don't need.


If you end up getting a Rigol, don't forget to do the quiz in the checkout process to get an extra $30 off the price.

[MacAttak]

I'm in the same unfortunate position as you are; except I have actually just played with a Rigol.  You are right, it's pretty solid but I *have* to warn you against the horrible noise the DS1000/1100 serie produces... also, the screen is pretty small.

I have heard this before from a few sources, but mine doesn't seem very noisy (less than three weeks old). My bench PS is much louder. My old laptop was louder too. Perhaps there is variability in the fan quality?

[SLJ]

I purchased the Rigol DS1102E a couple weeks ago.  The fan is pretty quiet.  They might have fixed the noise problem.
The waveform display is not that great but I bought it more as a waveform analyzer since I have a couple of Tek analog scopes for viewing distortion and signal tracing.
The frequency function is accurate within .002%  of my good counters and the measurements display works well which is what I purchased it for.  I can't justify spending a thousand+ dollars on a digital scope when this 100 MHz scope gives me the info I want and a good vintage analog Tek scope still has a better display for under $150.

[casper.bang]

I have heard this before from a few sources, but mine doesn't seem very noisy (less than three weeks old). My bench PS is much louder. My old laptop was louder too. Perhaps there is variability in the fan quality?

Interesting! There must be, because I also haven't heard Dave Jones complain. However, Mark Madel's mentioned the Rigol's fan noise @8:40 into his Owon review:

Owon review



...as does this guy here at @6:32:

another reviewer

I also just shot a small video with my phone to demonstrate what I mean:




This kind of noise is completely unacceptable to me and is pretty much the single largest reason for why I disqualified the Rigol. I'd love to hear it's fixed in latest generation, but it's definitely not a great marketing aspect of the scope.

[SLJ]

I have to put my ear next to mine to hear the fan.  It is moving air through the unit.  If I have any other equipment on I can't hear it at all. Either I got lucky or Rigol fixed the problem.

I have no noise at all compared to that last video.  The lights and screen are really the only way to know mine is on.

[StevenB]

I have purchased two DS1102E's recently and haven't noticed a fan noise issue.

[casper.bang]

Great to hear guys; I assume Rigol fixed this issue then. Sorry staze for hijacking your thread, I'll shut up now.

[rsjsouza]

Just for reference, I have purchased a DS1102E for almost a year now and mine does the fan sound shown at the two videos below. Therefore Rigol probably heard the complaints on the web and replaced the fan.

For me personally it is not loud enough to justify replacing it.

When I was trying to decide on the oscilloscope, I looked at the offerings from Owon and Siglent, but since I tend to keep equipment for long periods of time (I still have a 15+ year old Kenwood CS4025 bought brand new), I chose Rigol because of their excellent reviews on the web regarding build quality.

[ivan747]

Casper, tell us more about that new DS1000 series you mentioned please.

[Salas]

I have to put my ear next to mine to hear the fan.  It is moving air through the unit.  If I have any other equipment on I can't hear it at all. Either I got lucky or Rigol fixed the problem.

I have no noise at all compared to that last video.  The lights and screen are really the only way to know mine is on.

Is there a possibility you got a fan modded unit through some customer return and resale or something?

[SLJ]

I have to put my ear next to mine to hear the fan.  It is moving air through the unit.  If I have any other equipment on I can't hear it at all. Either I got lucky or Rigol fixed the problem.

I have no noise at all compared to that last video.  The lights and screen are really the only way to know mine is on.

Is there a possibility you got a fan modded unit through some customer return and resale or something?

Don't think so.  Bought new from a major supplier.  No signs of previously being opened, used, or repackaging and warranty sticker is untouched.

[casper.bang]

Casper, tell us more about that new DS1000 series you mentioned please.

Ehh it's not new. Rigol calls it the DS1000E series, I just didn't bother to add the E part since I noticed these usually just designate extra features like logic analyzer, long memory etc.: http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000e/

[saturation]

A test instrument should measure reliably and perform exactly as the spec sheet says, so you know its has no unknowns and is fully predictable when you are probing unknown circuits.  i spend my time on my circuits not troubleshooting or hacking my scope's reliability, unless that's what I want to do.

The 1052e has been around since 2007? and while not the latest and greatest, its also been tested for a longer period, to know its a reliable DSO design, with the occasional assembly defect that is usually found early in the scope's life and is easily fixable under warranty.

As a started scope, the 1052e will help you appreciate what a better DSO will do if and when you are ready for it as MacAttak says, particularly in the USA with Rigol USA here to honor the 3 year warranty.

Outside the USA buyers are left with the sellers warranty, as many countries do not have a local Rigol head office.  Also the price differences may not be so marked, so competitors are more attractive as if a glitch occurs, and its past warranty, you are left shipping it back to China, which is probably a futile effort.  So local hackers are your source for service, and if they know Owon or Hantek more, it may be better off to use those scopes rather than Rigol.

[staze]

Don't get caught up in the trap of buying anything above what you know you need.

Are you buying a scope because hacking it is interesting? If not, then don't consider that as a differentiator. Does the higher screen resolution really matter for you? If not, then that feature isn't mandatory either. What do you intend to do with this scope? Do you even need anything more than 50MHz bandwidth at this point? Etc.

Good points. Yes, hacking is interesting since I spend my days working with Linux and Unix. The fact the Hantek runs these is interesting to me. =) And really, I don't KNOW if I need more than 50mhz, but it seems that even the Rigol 1052 can be "hacked" into a 1102. Is there a good reference for what I would need those extra 50mhz for?

At that point then you can really compare apples to apples. Keep in mind that if you are a beginner then you *probably* don't really know what your needs will be a year or two from now (heck - you might not even really know what they are today). So don't assume you need to blow money on features you might not ever care about. From what I can tell, most folks outgrow their "starter scope" after a couple of years, and by then they really know what they want/need. And well-kept scopes seem to hold their value reasonably well (though you may end up just keeping two or more around).


I recently picked up a Rigol 1052E because it was the cheapest starter digital unit with the features I care about for now, in a device small enough to fit on my current (cramped) workbench. Maybe in a couple of years I will feel a need for higher bandwidth, more channels, more features, or even just a bigger screen. By then the technology will have advanced and I will be able to get more value for my money. And maybe I won't need anything better than this - in which case I saved a ton of money by not buying features I don't need.


If you end up getting a Rigol, don't forget to do the quiz in the checkout process to get an extra $30 off the price.

Yes, again, totally makes sense. I'm a bit confused on the quiz thing though. Which reseller has that?

[staze]

A test instrument should measure reliably and perform exactly as the spec sheet says, so you know its has no unknowns and is fully predictable when you are probing unknown circuits.  i spend my time on my circuits not troubleshooting or hacking my scope's reliability, unless that's what I want to do.

The 1052e has been around since 2007? and while not the latest and greatest, its also been tested for a longer period, to know its a reliable DSO design, with the occasional assembly defect that is usually found early in the scope's life and is easily fixable under warranty.

As a started scope, the 1052e will help you appreciate what a better DSO will do if and when you are ready for it as MacAttak says, particularly in the USA with Rigol USA here to honor the 3 year warranty.

Outside the USA buyers are left with the sellers warranty, as many countries do not have a local Rigol head office.  Also the price differences may not be so marked, so competitors are more attractive as if a glitch occurs, and its past warranty, you are left shipping it back to China, which is probably a futile effort.  So local hackers are your source for service, and if they know Owon or Hantek more, it may be better off to use those scopes rather than Rigol.

Makes sense. Which I suppose is why everything really keeps pointing back to that scope. Part of me just loathes the idea of buying something from A. 2007, and B. With a 320x240 screen. =/ On the other hand, looking at their site, I see there's a rackmount option, which is something I can't see the Owon doing (it's just a bad form factor for this), and I don't know about the Hantek.

Anyone still have their Rigol from 2007 in service? I mean, is there any reason one of these DSOs wouldn't last 10+ years?

Thanks!

[MacAttak]

The "quiz" is in the order checkout process at the Rigol NA site. In the shopping cart there is a button that says "Earn an extra discount" right above the total. I am not sure how long they are doing this, but the button is still there. Even without the discount, the pricing directly from the manufacturer is competitive with resellers (or better). Their shipping rates are also competitive, and very fast.

The quiz is really just a gimmick to get you to look at the spec sheets of their more expensive models. Things like "which of these advanced features are supported by the 4000 series models?". And you would just go look at the product page for the answer. If you miss a question then just start it over. Worth the few minutes to save $30 though.

[casper.bang]

The "quiz" is in the order checkout process at the Rigol NA site.

Unfortunately it's not on the UK site, which uses Google checkout. Bummer, with a fixed fan design and a £20 discount I might have been tempted as well.

[TangentAudio]

...as does this guy here at @6:32:

another reviewer

I am that other reviewer.  At the time of that review, I didn't think the fan noise was that bad.  I was mostly using it in my noisy shop, and it was drowned out by the drone of some server fans which are near my bench.

Several months ago, I brought the scope up to my home office to use it while I was writing some firmware.  I found the fan noise to be OK for the first few minutes, but it got awful after that.  I ended up replacing the fan with a Noctua 60mmx25mm fan and used one of the speed-reducer adapters that came with it.  It's not silent, but it seems to be a good compromise between noise and airflow.  I tried it on the slowest speed, but it cut the air flow down too much for my comfort level.

[saturation]

I think Dave's is from 2009, mine is 2010; I use it mostly every weekend.  The only thing wrong with these has been the rotary encoder for the time base is dirty, but I work with it regardless.  Its not something I would ship back to Rigol because I think the older units with firmware 2.2 -2.4 ?? were made better and I fear instead of servicing it they'll swap a board or the entire scope for a newer model. 

I easily think the scope will last far over 10 years.  IIRC in ~2011, scores of Rigol built Agilent versions, DSO3000 series, were dumped for $150-200 on eBay all working, the seller was offering a batch of them 10-20 at a time for almost a month; they were built in 2005 or so and were dumped by a school. 

Anyone still have their Rigol from 2007 in service? I mean, is there any reason one of these DSOs wouldn't last 10+ years?

Thanks!

[staze]

Awesome.

Okay, I just realized another "feature" I would like. It looks like they make software for running the scope (and I'd guess acquiring data) from a Windows computer. I mainly use a Mac myself. Anyone know if something like LabView or any 3rd party software will talk to this scope on the Mac? It does look like it'll write out CSV to a thumbdrive, which a mac should read.

Any thoughts? I know there was a guy in Germany, I think, that wrote a Mac application to access the Hantek.

Thanks so much for the help. Now I'm leaning back toward the Rigol.

[staze]

Some quick google looks like the Rigol CAN work in Labview: http://sine.ni.com/apps/utf8/niid_web_display.download_page?p_id_guid=88AF154718E95366E04400144FB7D21D

But curious if anyone has had success (specifically on the Mac)?

Thanks!

[staze]

Oh, and how are the probes? Heard a lot of "these things feel flimsy". Has that improved recently?

[staze]

And damn, after watching this:

Now I think I just need to save up for the 2072. But like people have said, first scope, do I need that much, etc. ugh. sucks.

[EEVblog]

I think Dave's is from 2009

Mine is from late 2008 IIRC, back when the prices dropped dramatically to $700 (and then promptly halved again 6 months after I bought it :->)

[staze]

I think Dave's is from 2009

Mine is from late 2008 IIRC, back when the prices dropped dramatically to $700 (and then promptly halved again 6 months after I bought it :->)

And? Still use it all the time? Is it your primary scope? If so, anything it doesn't do that you really wish it did, or have to use some other scope to do?

[EEVblog]

And? Still use it all the time? Is it your primary scope? If so, anything it doesn't do that you really wish it did, or have to use some other scope to do?

You haven't been watching the blog have you? 
It's now my home scope, and Sagan's daily play toy, so it gets abused a LOT, but rarely used.
My main scope is an Agilent 3000X.
Basically, unless you are absolutely strapped for every last cent, I would not recommend anyone buy the DS1052E any more. The DS2000 series offers 10 times the features and performance for just on double the price.

[staze]

And? Still use it all the time? Is it your primary scope? If so, anything it doesn't do that you really wish it did, or have to use some other scope to do?

You haven't been watching the blog have you? 
It's now my home scope, and Sagan's daily play toy, so it gets abused a LOT, but rarely used.
My main scope is an Agilent 3000X.
Basically, unless you are absolutely strapped for every last cent, I would not recommend anyone buy the DS1052E any more. The DS2000 series offers 10 times the features and performance for just on double the price.

Actually just found the site a few weeks ago, so no, haven't watched it all. =)

Thats.... what I was afraid of. =/

[Deckert]

Basically, unless you are absolutely strapped for every last cent, I would not recommend anyone buy the DS1052E any more.

I'd disagree with the above statement. The cost factor for an after-hours tinkerer/hacker is a lot more important and the cash saved when buying the 1000-series can go into other kit like a good bench PSU, soldering iron, DMM, etc. I find myself in much the same space the original poster; by day I write C++ code for large unix systems used in the telco space. In the evenings I sit and hack Arduino and TI MSP430 code and build little projects from PSUs, chargers, NTP time-sync kit to a mpu-controlled electric blanket.

Doing the above I find the 1000-series more than adequate for what I do (I actually have the Atten ADS1102CML of which I did a review elsewhere, but it's in the same class as the Rigol 1000 series). In fact, in almost a year of having this scope there's nothing I did that I couldn't measure with it.

The DS2000 series offers 10 times the features and performance for just on double the price.

I don't dispute the above fact - and believe me, I drool over the WFU rate of the Rigols and Agilents, but at the end of the day, my current scope handles everything I throw at it. Having the extra cash allowed me some freedom to get my bench set up and kitted out with Raaco drawer systems, good LED lighting, a swing-arm magnifying light, etc.

If you've got the budget, by all means go for the 2000-series, but if not, using the 1000-series for tinkering/hacking really does not present any challenges.

--deckert

[ivan747]

One thing about Mac software: you really need Windows. Grab a Windows XP license from an old computer and install it under VirtualBox (free), VMWare or Parallels. Keep the virtual machine for electronics except when working with PDFs. I find Apple's text rendering much better and the scrolling much more natural and faster than under a virtual machine or regular Windows. Get XP because it is compatible with practically everything and I am sure it will still be for at least 4 years.

[MacAttak]

Yeah, while a number of EE tools offer Mac versions (Eagle for example), you will eventually run into a situation where what you want will ONLY run on Windows. I use Parallels on my Macbook and like it a lot. With Coherence mode (same thing as VmWare Fusion), the desktops are merged and you rarely even notice the fact that some things are running in a virtualized Windows installation.

I don't recommend trying to use the latest version of Windows with it - it works OK in Parallels/VmWare/etc, but some of the software packages you might want to run don't always run well on the latest and greatest operating system version. Stick with Windows 7 for the best experience. XP is nice and stable but it is very old and was supposed to be past support sunset by now. The only reason Microsoft still supports it is because there are so many holdouts still using it.


But generally speaking, you can have the best of both worlds that way. When software you want to use offers a OS X version, then you can use that... and for others you can just use the Windows version without really worrying much about it.

[c4757p]

XP is nice and stable but it is very old and was supposed to be past support sunset by now.

Eh, my car's past support sunset but it still moves down the road when I push the gas pedal.

[nerdyHippy]

XP is nice and stable but it is very old and was supposed to be past support sunset by now.

Eh, my car's past support sunset but it still moves down the road when I push the gas pedal.

I reckon security updates are more important for a Windows machine than your car.

[travellerw]

I did exactly what Dekert did.. I used the extra cash to buy better quality other gear. I just couldn't justify double the price for the stuff I was doing with the scope..

On another note, my scope is only 1 month old and does not have the fan issue. I can barely hear the fan in my home office..

[c4757p]

I reckon security updates are more important for a Windows machine than your car.

I don't understand this obsession with security updates. I'm running a virtual machine that's running a bit of specialized software on top of another, maintained OS, not a server that's open for the world to see. Out of all the computers in my home that I "maintain", the only one I've ever had a problem with is my dad's - I have not been able to train him not to go farting around on shady web sites. If there's a firewall up, you're not advertising your computer to the public and you're not mucking about in the questionable corners of the Internet, the computer's a damn appliance, not a kingdom that needs to be guarded. On the rare occasion that something bad happens I'll just wipe it and start over. Much less hassle.

[MacAttak]

It's not just security updates - no more bugfixes or driver updates either. And once an update to that specialized software breaks backward compatibility you won't have much luck convincing the vendor to support your retired OS platform.

Also, there are many ways to compromise your system other than visiting shady web sites. You wouldn't call this one shady, yet it is exactly the kind of place that would be targeted by a zero-day exploit such as the Flash or JPG exploits that have cropped up in recent years. And just because you aren't running a server doesn't make you any less of a target. Bots don't care.

Personal computers are certainly not appliances. You can't have your identity stolen by a bot that hijacks your microwave. Yet.

[casper.bang]

Basically, unless you are absolutely strapped for every last cent, I would not recommend anyone buy the DS1052E any more.

That's a little sad to read.  As an electronics hobbyist (software engineer by day) I just can't justify spending around US$1000 for the DS2000 series - that is a whole lot of money on a hobby budget. At that price range, frankly I'd rather go out and get a super nice new RC helicopter for another one of my expensive geek hobbies.

There *must* be a decent scope in between the DS1052E (US$300) and DS2000 (US$1000) which offers advantages to hobbyists while not breaking the bank. From reading these threads, it's pretty clear that I am not the only one with a budget that can only be stretched to around $500-$600, regardless of how much more value you get by adding 30-50% more (that's a game you can't win unless you won the lottery).

I reckon that the DS1052E (which I have evaluated an older sibling of over the last week), would actually serve me fine for my journey beyond the simple DMM. That is, if it weren't for the fact that it sounds like a jet engine and has a screen no bigger than my smartphones yet a resolution 4x smaller.

[c4757p]

Personal computers are certainly not appliances. You can't have your identity stolen by a bot that hijacks your microwave. Yet.

They should be. I just don't have time to care. I try my best not to be an idiot with my data on my computer (the only way you're going to steal my identity from my computer is with a keylogger and getting lucky, I don't store anything sensitive and I'm good about passwords), and that's the most I'm going to waste my time doing. Sure, I might not be perfectly safe against an attack, but hell, if somebody attacked me with a knife in public I wouldn't be safe either.

[staze]

And the circles go on. =P

Yeah, running XP in a VM sounds fine. I already run Win7 on my MBA (Macbook Air) and it runs great. Adding XP won't be a problem. Sad though. =/ But then, I guess back in the day, all the software control was probably in Win3.1 or DOS for that matter.

Yes, having the extra money would let me buy a nice bench PSU (or rather, A bench PSU (been looking at the Circuit Specialists CSI3005x5. Mind you, it's only $130, so that's not exactly a big deal. I'm trying to budget no more than like $150/month on this kind of thing, so I'll be saving several months if I go for the Rigol 2000 series. That said, maybe by the time I have the money, they'll drop by price and it'll be win win. Also figure by the time I have the money, I might change my mind and not want a scope, or decide something else would better suit me.

Arg.

Anyone know if Rigol NA offers EDU discounts? =)

Keep the input coming. Seems like it's all pointing at Rigol at this point, but just cycling around between "Buy a 1052, it's all you'll probably need" to "Save your money and get the 2072". And the 2072 does look sexy as hell, but since I'm not an EE, I'm just not sure if I'll use all it can offer. But then, I do like nice things (I bought a Fluke 189 for that reason), so...

Now, I'm off to watch Psych, and The Daily Show.

[Deckert]

Keep the input coming. Seems like it's all pointing at Rigol at this point, but just cycling around between "Buy a 1052, it's all you'll probably need" to "Save your money and get the 2072". And the 2072 does look sexy as hell, but since I'm not an EE, I'm just not sure if I'll use all it can offer. But then, I do like nice things (I bought a Fluke 189 for that reason), so...

The only change I would recommend would be to get the 1102 (100MHz version). Many of the glitches I measure with the Atten come out at 60-70MHz (see the common mode noise glitches in the "show your bench PSU" thread) and some of the signal ringing a little higher.

I also agree with MacAttak's earlier advice in reply #5, it's really good advice.

--deckert

[EEVblog]

If you've got the budget, by all means go for the 2000-series, but if not, using the 1000-series for tinkering/hacking really does not present any challenges.

I was not implying anything to the contrary.
There is still (after almost 5 years on the market) nothing inherently wrong with the DS1052E, but fact is  it is much less bang-per-buck compared to the new DS2000.
The DS2000 with 10 times the features and performance for double the price, is IMO, a very compelling deal compared to the DS1052E, but only if you can afford it. If you can't afford it, the point is moot.

[EEVblog]

Basically, unless you are absolutely strapped for every last cent, I would not recommend anyone buy the DS1052E any more.

That's a little sad to read.  As an electronics hobbyist (software engineer by day) I just can't justify spending around US$1000 for the DS2000 series - that is a whole lot of money on a hobby budget. At that price range, frankly I'd rather go out and get a super nice new RC helicopter for another one of my expensive geek hobbies.

Why is that sad to read?
It's a basic fact that the DS1052E is now almost 5 years old, and is (IMO) poor bang-per-buck compared to the new DS2000.
But the rules of affordability always remain the same, if you want a basic scope, and only have $400 to spend, buy the 1052E and be happy.

There *must* be a decent scope in between the DS1052E (US$300) and DS2000 (US$1000) which offers advantages to hobbyists while not breaking the bank. From reading these threads, it's pretty clear that I am not the only one with a budget that can only be stretched to around $500-$600, regardless of how much more value you get by adding 30-50% more (that's a game you can't win unless you won the lottery).

The DS2072 is US$839. Even in Oz it's only AU$839 + GST from Emona.

I reckon that the DS1052E (which I have evaluated an older sibling of over the last week), would actually serve me fine for my journey beyond the simple DMM.

Of course it will, no one is saying otherwise.

[casper.bang]

The DS2072 is US$839. Even in Oz it's only AU$839 + GST from Emona.

It's €889 / US$1139 / AU$1092 when buying from Rigol in Denmark (25% sales tax). The cheapest price I can find it at in Europe, is at €845  /  US$1083 / AU$1038 (19% VAT).

[ivan747]

I fond the DS1052E/1102E the best compromise between reliability and price. The model has been around for 5 years and during that time the software has been refined. Technical support and warranty claims have been reported by users online (just get Rigol products from authorized sellers).

In my opinion, when you pay hundreds of dollars for something, you better know you are getting something you can rely on.

The other oscilloscopes in the price range of this series are recent and sometimes unpolished. Little is known or published about them so you are not 100% sure what you are getting.

I have more confidence in a tried and proven product than something little people know at this sort of price range.

And don't forget that the more people are using it, the easier it will be to get people to answer your questions. Also, it's resale value is likely to be higher as there will be more demand for it, like happens with Tektronix CROs right now.

Now the issue with the DS2072 is that if is twice the price and is not yet proven, although it's quality suggests it can overlast a DS1052E. And don't forget software will contain more bugs than usual for now.

[BillyD]

Wow this has really made me lust for a DS2000 series, and I wish it was double the price, but looking at Batronix where I bought my 1052 the price is €710 vs €239 plus VAT + shipping which is almost bang on 3 times the price. And that's excluding the sexy options such as serial decoder, advanced trigger, etc  .
It does look like a great piece of kit but for many hobbyists who value their savings and marriages I think the 1052 will continue to be the Model T of the oscilloscope world for a while yet!

[staze]

All very good points.

So, the question becomes:

Spend ~$330 now, and get a DSO1052 (or a little more and get the 1102), and have a scope that will probably serve for more than what I need right now (heck, I don't even know what I need, which is part of the problem), and in 3-5 years, upgrade to something better if needed, maybe recouping some part of my ~$330 by selling the 1000 series. Or save a bit longer, buy something higher end (the 2000 series) and have something that will last me longer, but may be way overkill, in which case I got something nicer, but spending way more.

It's the "buy a radioshack dmm vs buy a fluke". Sure, the 'Shack DMM probably will do everything you want, but if you need a Fluke in the future, you're stuck with a Shack DMM that you either have to sell, or just look at thinking "why did I buy that?"

But, I'm a tinkerer, so the 1000 series will probably work fine for me for everything I want to do. *sigh*

At this point, I'm saving for anything, so hopefully by the end of the month when I have enough for the 1000, I'll have made up my mind to either buy, or wait. 

[ivan747]

Spend ~$330 now, and get a DSO1052

Only from the official Rigol NA, not from China. Otherwise you get no warranty.

in 3-5 years, upgrade to something better if needed, maybe recouping some part of my ~$330 by selling the 1000 series. Or save a bit longer, buy something higher end (the 2000 series) and have something that will last me longer, but may be way overkill, in which case I got something nicer, but spending way more.

Are you 100% you will be into electronics for more than 3-5 years? If you are like me you change hobbies every once in a while. My only exception is electronics because there are half a dozen of fields I can alternate between.

You can always sell your gear. The DS2000 series will probably keep its value more because it is new and likely to be in service. You can sell the DS1000E series as well but by then, the models will probably be discontinued.

Weight the factors in. There are many ways to do this like pros/cons lists and such.

It's the "buy a radioshack dmm vs buy a fluke". Sure, the 'Shack DMM probably will do everything you want, but if you need a Fluke in the future, you're stuck with a Shack DMM that you either have to sell, or just look at thinking "why did I buy that?"

Nah, a 'Shack DMM equivalent would be a DSO nano. This is more like Fluke 117 vs. Fluke 87V. You can keep the Rigol DS1052E and get a DS2000 series in 5 years if the 1052 costs too little to make the sale worthy.

The DS2000 series have a Trigger Out. If you connect that to the Trigger Input on the DS1052E you effectively get a dual timebase 4 channel oscilloscope. Neat!

If you feel you deserve a DS2000, get it. If not, get it when you feel you deserve it, if this becomes your permanent hobby you will eventually want one.

But, I'm a tinkerer, so the 1000 series will probably work fine for me for everything I want to do. *sigh*

Yeah me too. But I got this oscilloscope and I am expecting it to last until I graduate from college. I start in august and it ends 3 and a half years later.


Another alternative to the DS2000 series is getting a DS1102E, a logic analyzer and/or an analog oscilloscope depending on what you need. As a bonus, it fills up your empty bench a bit. 

Ivan

[staze]

in 3-5 years, upgrade to something better if needed, maybe recouping some part of my ~$330 by selling the 1000 series. Or save a bit longer, buy something higher end (the 2000 series) and have something that will last me longer, but may be way overkill, in which case I got something nicer, but spending way more.

Are you 100% you will be into electronics for more than 3-5 years? If you are like me you change hobbies every once in a while. My only exception is electronics because there are half a dozen of fields I can alternate between.

And there it is. I change hobbies. I don't know how long I'll use the scope. Especially since I have a child on the way. I've always been interested in electronics, but I've never spent that much time learning them. Macro stuff I can do (home wiring, etc). Micro stuff I've always dabbled in (replacing caps on failed monitors, etc). A scope is something I've wanted for a bit, especially since my grandfather used to write the manuals for Tek scopes (yup, good ol' days when Tek was pretty much THE employeer in Beaverton, Oregon). =)

One of the first things I was going to try to do was look at my home AC power for harmonics (looking for signals that would interfere with X10 type communication). So FFT would be needed, but the 1000 series does that.

Think at this point, I'm going to just going to save, and figure it out once I have the money. I do need a bench power supply as well.

*sigh* I guess the problem is... I'm not strapped for cash. I just have to save for it a bit longer (read, as you said, saving marriage).

[EEVblog]

Now the issue with the DS2072 is that if is twice the price and is not yet proven, although it's quality suggests it can overlast a DS1052E. And don't forget software will contain more bugs than usual for now.

No doubt. But remember that you are getting a massive increase in feature set and usability for the extra money, it's not a simple replacement, it's a huge step up.
The firmware fixes will come if they are required.

[EEVblog]

It's the "buy a radioshack dmm vs buy a fluke". Sure, the 'Shack DMM probably will do everything you want, but if you need a Fluke in the future, you're stuck with a Shack DMM that you either have to sell, or just look at thinking "why did I buy that?"

Not quite, because the Radio Shack meter will have the same features (or often more) as the Fluke.
With Fluke you are paying for a bare-bones reliable well built and well proven design, not extra features.
That's not the case with the Rigol DS2000, you are paying for a big host of extra features and potential expandability with the options.

[staze]

Not quite, because the Radio Shack meter will have the same features (or often more) as the Fluke.
With Fluke you are paying for a bare-bones reliable well built and well proven design, not extra features.
That's not the case with the Rigol DS2000, you are paying for a big host of extra features and potential expandability with the options.

Hmm... true, except the count increase. My old 22-812 had PC connectivity over RS-232, but it was only a 4k count meter. My Fluke 189 is a 50k count meter. =)

Now, that said, I've been watching some reviews of the DS1102E, and it LOOKS like it'll do all I could want for the foreseeable. Only thing that would be awesome from the 2000 series (other than the much better screen), is the serial and I2C decode, but those are pay-for options anyway (after the 30 day trial), and I can't see using those at the moment anyway. *sigh* Not being an EE (hell, I got my degree in Political Science (aka Government))... gar. The 2000 series is hella sexy... damn pre-emptive buyers remorse. =)

So, what KILLER "app" or feature does the 2000 series do that the 1000 series won't? Obviously physical differences aside (I know the screen is much bigger, etc).

[EEVblog]

Hmm... true, except the count increase.

Not so.
You can get a 50,000 count Uni-T or other brand for under $100.
The closest Fluke with 4 1/2 digit is the Fluke 80 series, and it's only 20,000 count, for what, 3-4 times the price?

So, what KILLER "app" or feature does the 2000 series do that the 1000 series won't? Obviously physical differences aside (I know the screen is much bigger, etc).

Off hand:
- 14 times the memory standard
- Segmented memory (effectively amplifying that 14Mbit by several orders)
- Waveform replay
- advanced PC control (see the awesome firmware a forum member has written)
- Ethernet standard
- Low noise 500uV front end
- intensity graded display (analog-like display)
- order of magnitude better waveform update speed
- a whole host of advanced measurement capability

Plus more.
All for double the price.
IMO, it's a no-brainer.

[ivan747]

Hmm... true, except the count increase.

Not so.
You can get a 50,000 count Uni-T or other brand for under $100.
The closest Fluke with 4 1/2 digit is the Fluke 80 series, and it's only 20,000 count, for what, 3-4 times the price?

So, what KILLER "app" or feature does the 2000 series do that the 1000 series won't? Obviously physical differences aside (I know the screen is much bigger, etc).

Off hand:
- 14 times the memory standard
- Segmented memory (effectively amplifying that 14Mbit by several orders)
- Waveform replay
- advanced PC control (see the awesome firmware a forum member has written)
- Ethernet standard
- Low noise 500uV front end
- intensity graded display (analog-like display)
- order of magnitude better waveform update speed
- a whole host of advanced measurement capability

Plus more.
All for double the price.
IMO, it's a no-brainer.

It is... if you have the money
I sadly don't 

But
If you are like me, you can get the DS1102E and wait for the right time to score an analog scope, if you still have interest in electronics. Now you have the intensity graded display. The Tektronix 2555 has a 500µV frontend as well. If I ever get a change in the next 5 years, I will get one of those or another Tek 2000 series. Not to be against you Dave, just a suggestion.

Ethernet might attract someone who's into IT. I admit that.

If you decide for the DS1000 series, you could get a logic analyzer as well, as you go along. A Saelae Logic as Dave reviewed, is a good idea if you ever want to program microcontrollers. If you are a programmer, I really recommend getting into MCUs. I wish I had the talent to program properly.

The DS2072 is great stuff, in my opinion. If I ever get a chance to select my equipment for my lab in a company, I would definitely get one of those.

[travellerw]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned.. The 1052 is still "Upgrade-able" to an 1102... Like I said my scope is 1 month old and came with the latest firmware. I upgraded it no problem.. A little extra savings!

[MacAttak]

staze, you keep mentioning that you also need to get a bench PS. Do you not have one at all? If not, then IMO that's a pretty darn critical piece of equipment for most of us - on par with having a scope and only slightly less important than having one or two DMMs and a soldering iron. I would do some homework on that and pick out what you think will suffice for your needs, and keep that in mind as you consider budget for the scope. Bench PSU costs can vary greatly depending on what you need out of them.

But if you already have a PSU and just want to upgrade it or get a second one, then it's not such a big deal. As long as you have *something* capable of delivering an appropriate source of power for what you are doing.


FWIW, I was strongly considering the 2000 series too when I decided to go for a 1052E. The money actually isn't a problem for me in general - it's just that overall I have poured a ton of cash into this hobby over the past 6 months. At least $3,000 - not including the new scope - on things from PSU to solder and hot air stations, assorted power and hand tools, furniture, books, educational kits, mcu boards and modules, countless online orders for parts from Digikey/Adafruit/Ebay, PCB fabrication for circuit designs, and even a mid-size 3D printer to handle creating custom mechanical parts and project enclosures. All those little things add up very quickly.

I rarely lose interest in my hobbies, and within a couple of years I'm sure I will have outgrown this scope. So when the time comes, I will just buy a better one - but for now, the 50MHz low-end 1052 will do, and it is much more easily absorbed into my budget.

[ivan747]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned.. The 1052 is still "Upgrade-able" to an 1102... Like I said my scope is 1 month old and came with the latest firmware. I upgraded it no problem.. A little extra savings!

I thought it wasn't and went for the 1102E   

[casper.bang]

[DS2072] does look like a great piece of kit but for many hobbyists who value their savings and marriages I think the 1052 will continue to be the Model T of the oscilloscope world for a while yet!

Are we really drawn out in an all or nothing game between the €284/$364* Rigol 1052E and the €845/$1083* Rigol 2072? I mean, that's a whopping €561/$719 price differential here! I'd like something a little better than the 1052E yet not as overkill as the 2072 which I would probably never use to its fullest (and couldn't justify getting).

Thus, the Owon SDS7102V remains of interest to me. At €489/$627 it sits under the middle marker between the 1052E and 2072 (and qualifies for free shipping, unlike the 1052E). Forgetting the 2072 for a moment, don't you get very interesting features in the Owon for the extra 70% over the 1052E? (10x longer memory, larger screen, one ADC, lower noise, portability, better probes...)

I'd be interested in trying to highlight the candidates in this €400-500/$500-600 range and judging by some of the other comments in this thread, I am not the only one.

* Prices from batronix.com, the cheapest source in Europe.

[casper.bang]

If you decide for the DS1000 series, you could get a logic analyzer as well, as you go along. A Saelae Logic as Dave reviewed, is a good idea if you ever want to program microcontrollers.

Yeah it's pretty clear that a stand-alone logic analyzer is much better value than [oscilloscope] integrated ones, and more likely to receive software updates. I noticed that after the Saelae Logic16 was introduced, the Logic8 is now only €119/$149. Being a software guy, having native client software for Windows/Mac/Linux is pretty awesome, as is having official access to an SDK.

Biggest downside appears to be that the voltage levels are quite limited, meaning classic rs232 signals are off limits (you'd have to build a small frontend with voltage dividers and potentially some inverters).

[rf-loop]

Thus, the Owon SDS7102V remains of interest to me. At €489/$627 it sits under the middle marker between the 1052E and 2072 (and qualifies for free shipping, unlike the 1052E). Forgetting the 2072 for a moment, don't you get very interesting features in the Owon for the extra 70% over the 1052E? (10x longer memory, larger screen, one ADC, lower noise, portability, better probes...)

I'd be interested in trying to highlight the candidates in this €400-500/$500-600 range and judging by some of the other comments in this thread, I am not the only one.

* Prices from batronix.com, the cheapest source in Europe.

About Owon: SDS7102(V)
It have 2x10M max capture memory. Yes both channels have 10M max.  Memory is also full speed! With one channel use it can do 1GSa/s using 500us/div - 2ns/div and with 2 channel use 1ms/div -2ns/div 500MSa/s for both channels.

Siglent:  With newest FW they are not bad. It is good to realize also that old reviews are old.  Building quality in outside and insidew is also good in new SDS1000CNL/CML/CFL models.
UI is quite fast and good features. Even there is real dual timebase! This means that in ALT mode both traces have own trigger AND also separate timebase!  There is also trigger for both edges. Of course vertical have fine adjustment also.  Factory tell waveform update rate is 2000wfms/s max.  Equal time sampling also works fine with new FW.  Both channels have also separate adjustable DSP filters.  Good measurements and also tracking cursors etc.

(These old 5.7" display models are going Obsolete and  Siglent stop them after 30.April.2013).
Siglent CML models have max 2M shared capture memory and it is half speed as example in Rigol DS1000E series where is 1M.  For low speed Record some Siglent models have separate 6M memory + very low speeds it can also capture directly to USB memory. (of course it have also this usual recorder as "frame record" for higher speeds but it have (as usual) dead time between frames. (6M recorder is continuous data stream without breaks but can use only with low horizontal speeds)

Siglent have also developed they after sales customer care (Of course distributors need be main role for after sales care). Example public FW updates, service manuals and also spare parts available.

If look more expensive scopes. New Rigol DS2000 series looks very good.

[EEVblog]

Siglent have also developed they after sales customer care (Of course distributors need be main role for after sales care). Example public FW updates, service manuals and also spare parts available.

Siglent have service manuals?
Genuine downloads, or pirated copies?

[casper.bang]

Siglent have service manuals?
Genuine downloads, or pirated copies?

Pirated from where? I thought you said 8 months ago in the TrioSmartCal video that Siglent is the single largest OEM who design and manufacture for BK Precision, Lecroy, Atten etc?

[EEVblog]

(These old 5.7" display models are going Obsolete and  Siglent stop them after 30.April.2013).

Yes, no more SDS1000C/D/CM/CN/CF/CE
http://www.siglent.com/en/news/detail.aspx?id=100000050523437&nodecode=119002001

[EEVblog]

Pirated from where?
I thought you said 8 months ago in the TrioSmartCal video that Siglent is the single largest OEM who design and manufacture for BK Precision, Lecroy, Atten etc?

I'm talking about service manuals.
If Siglent service manuals exist, then they are either:
a) An official version from Siglent designed for either public or limited deaer/service centre release
or
b) Some sort of pirated or leaked schematic or documents etc, or maybe even some revere engineered thing?

 

[rf-loop]

Pirated from where?
I thought you said 8 months ago in the TrioSmartCal video that Siglent is the single largest OEM who design and manufacture for BK Precision, Lecroy, Atten etc?

I'm talking about service manuals.
If Siglent service manuals exist, then they are either:
a) An official version from Siglent designed for either public or limited deaer/service centre release
or
b) Some sort of pirated or leaked schematic or documents etc, or maybe even some revere engineered thing?

 

Available officially. Named as Service manual (limited public versions of course)  and yes, no schematics. Just like also many others today.  Explanation about specs, calibration check, calibration procedure using equipments and computer, simply diagnose and something about mechanical construction.

Of course, this kind of cheap products have not  component level information and  component level repair manual.
Who want repair these component level and need schematics - no one? Least 60 eur/h normal price for working hour.  If ther is fail (otside of warranty), just put to recycle and buy new or change new spare part  TFT or PSU or main board or front panel. Available from Siglent. If some mechanical accidental thing happends there can of course buy knobs and other parts, even bacside or front side of scope. 

http://www.siglent.com/en/


go to service, download center, service manuals

SDG5000 Service Manual
SDG1000 Service Manual
SDS1000CML Service Manual (include DL/CNL/CML)
SDS1000CFL Service Manual

User manuals, software, FW etc just for download.

Of course these young companies  like Siglent do (slowly) some kind of "self developing".
What I have see Siglent try slowly growup  from children phase to forward.  Least they show signs that they want try...

[EEVblog]

Available officially. Named as Service manual (limited public verdsions of course)  and yes, no schematics. Just like also many others today.  Explanation about specs, calibration check, calibration procedure using equipments and computer, simply diagnose and something about mechanical construction.

Blah!

Agilent have those too:
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/75019-97039.pdf

[rf-loop]

Available officially. Named as Service manual (limited public verdsions of course)  and yes, no schematics. Just like also many others today.  Explanation about specs, calibration check, calibration procedure using equipments and computer, simply diagnose and something about mechanical construction.

Blah!

Agilent have those too:
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/75019-97039.pdf

Yes, but now we talk about chinese cheap Siglent and this is in my opinion some small sign about some advantage. Short time ago there was negative opinions becouse total lack of FW download.  Now there is.  Now there is also tiny service information - it is also better than nothing. Things change.

[staze]

staze, you keep mentioning that you also need to get a bench PS. Do you not have one at all? If not, then IMO that's a pretty darn critical piece of equipment for most of us - on par with having a scope and only slightly less important than having one or two DMMs and a soldering iron. I would do some homework on that and pick out what you think will suffice for your needs, and keep that in mind as you consider budget for the scope. Bench PSU costs can vary greatly depending on what you need out of them.

I don't have a PSU. I was looking at the CSI3005x5. Or a cheap ATTEN or something. Wasn't really thinking anything TOO nice, but relatively stable. But a PSU, even the Circuit Specialists one, is only $130, which is a much lower amount than the Scope. I am trying to keep my expenses below $150 a month. So, saving for a scope is a time commitment.

FWIW, I was strongly considering the 2000 series too when I decided to go for a 1052E. The money actually isn't a problem for me in general - it's just that overall I have poured a ton of cash into this hobby over the past 6 months. At least $3,000 - not including the new scope - on things from PSU to solder and hot air stations, assorted power and hand tools, furniture, books, educational kits, mcu boards and modules, countless online orders for parts from Digikey/Adafruit/Ebay, PCB fabrication for circuit designs, and even a mid-size 3D printer to handle creating custom mechanical parts and project enclosures. All those little things add up very quickly.

Good to know. And yes, I'm leaning more and more to the 1000 series. Part of the issue is a psychological issue. To spend $350 for a scope now, and maybe need something bigger in the future, or to save for the bigger one and buy it, and maybe never use it past what the cheaper model would have done (which basically means I've wasted the money). The other issue is a tend to change hobbies. Now, I know I could resell the scope, and I know I can use the scope for all kinds of things, but.

*sigh* More responses.

[staze]

Thus, the Owon SDS7102V remains of interest to me. At €489/$627 it sits under the middle marker between the 1052E and 2072 (and qualifies for free shipping, unlike the 1052E). Forgetting the 2072 for a moment, don't you get very interesting features in the Owon for the extra 70% over the 1052E? (10x longer memory, larger screen, one ADC, lower noise, portability, better probes...)

Only issue is, seems a lot easier to spend 30% more and get the 2072 if it's only 30%. 100% more, however.

[staze]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned.. The 1052 is still "Upgrade-able" to an 1102... Like I said my scope is 1 month old and came with the latest firmware. I upgraded it no problem.. A little extra savings!

So, you did the bit-swapped firmware hack, or something else? My only concern is that Rigol, like Intel (or AMD) is basically testing all their production scopes as 100mhz versions, and those that don't test out get marked as the 50mhz version, or those that do really well get marked as the 150mhz version, etc. Chip makers have done this for years... they're all the same die, they just clock them for what they will pass (hence one chip overclocks amazingly well, where one won't overclock for crap).

[staze]

Added a poll. Kind of wish it could be weighted, but oh well. Let me know if there should be another option. Seems like this boils down to an almost coin flip.

[casper.bang]

Only issue is, seems a lot easier to spend 30% more and get the 2072 if it's only 30%. 100% more, however.

...or 200% more in my case, making it completely irrelevant to me as a first scope. I really just want a revamp of the 1052, and the recent Siglent's do look like updated 1052's (sample memory, screen, dedicated buttons, PC interfacing etc.) with a menu system a la Rigol's that looks superior to Owon's (not a fan of all the cheap micro membrane buttons and lack of LED status in these).

Not sure the poll is fair; as I mentioned the difference is closer to 200% than 100% more (meaning you'd need to save up 5-6 months).

[staze]

Not so.
You can get a 50,000 count Uni-T or other brand for under $100.
The closest Fluke with 4 1/2 digit is the Fluke 80 series, and it's only 20,000 count, for what, 3-4 times the price?

Good point, good point.

Off hand:
- 14 times the memory standard
- Segmented memory (effectively amplifying that 14Mbit by several orders)
- Waveform replay
- advanced PC control (see the awesome firmware a forum member has written)
- Ethernet standard
- Low noise 500uV front end
- intensity graded display (analog-like display)
- order of magnitude better waveform update speed
- a whole host of advanced measurement capability

Hmm... so, then, stepping back, if you'd never owned a scope before, would any of those be huge? The intensity graded display sounds promising. And I'm guessing the Ethernet connectivity is for issuing commands... not actually sending waveforms to a computer, yes?

I mean, look at it this way: You get a hankering to learn a musical instrument. You could go out and spend a few hundred for something that will let you play, and figure out if you want to keep at it, or just tinker. Or you spend a couple grand, and buy something that would get you into the local amateur band/orchestra, but it could be you lack the talent, or the couple hundred dollar instrument would have served well enough for that as well. Or hell, could be you decide you want to switch instruments....

[staze]

Only issue is, seems a lot easier to spend 30% more and get the 2072 if it's only 30%. 100% more, however.

...or 200% more in my case, making it completely irrelevant to me as a first scope. I really just want a revamp of the 1052, and the recent Siglent's do look like updated 1052's (sample memory, screen, dedicated buttons, PC interfacing etc.) with a menu system a la Rigol's that looks superior to Owon's (not a fan of all the cheap micro membrane buttons and lack of LED status in these).

Which Siglent's are those? I noticed in reviews the buttons on the Owon's and Hanteks looked terrible (hard plastic, membrane cheap buttons, etc). The Rigol's looked like nice soft buttons, with LED status, etc.

[casper.bang]

Which Siglent's are those? I noticed in reviews the buttons on the Owon's and Hanteks looked terrible (hard plastic, membrane cheap buttons, etc). The Rigol's looked like nice soft buttons, with LED status, etc.

Well they have several series, currently deprecating the small 5" versions (like 1052E) over 7" widescreens. I am interested in the line with extended memory (good for capturing digital communication) so CML is the one for me.

There's a decent demo video online, which shows off the Siglents 1052E heritage, except there's now a dedicated single shot button, no need to share the vertical control between the 2 channels and of course more horizontal pixels (more visible waveform history). It has soft rubber buttons, 12 of which are with status LED's. I also like how the vertical resolution dial takes precedence (larger and located higher up) of the offset dial, which confused me on the Rigol 1052E.



I just wish I didn't have to order from China, but I have not located a European dealer yet.

[staze]

Is the CNL the same as the CML?

Note there are CNL's on eBay.

I don't know if there are any local dealers since it's the OEM building and reselling them under their own brand... their clients might get a bit upset.

As much as I/we bitch about all of this, it's still mind blowing that you can buy ANY scope for $300-400. Wonder what Tek thinks about all this. Having worked for 3com when Netgear and Dlink really made their push with $20 NICs, they were pretty honest saying "cards are cards, it's all about support". Unfortunately, they were both right and wrong.

[casper.bang]

Is the CNL the same as the CML?

Note there are CNL's on eBay.

Sadly no. There is a nice comparison chart here:
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=160931280364&cmd=VIDESC

Seems TME in Europe has some Siglents both under LeCroy and Ax-something name:
http://www.tme.eu/en/katalog/digital-oscilloscopes_112665/

[staze]

yeah... not sure myself about buying from china/ebay.

3 year warranty doesn't mean squat if you can't get ahold of the vendor....

At this point, guess I'm going to just save until I'm ready to pull the trigger... but at this point, I think the votes (wife, and coworkers) is for the 1052e.

Wish I could get work to buy it for me... then I'd just get the 2072. =)

[staze]

Hey sweet. Shoutout on an eevblog!

Sad that it makes me want the 2072....

[staze]

So after watching the video Dave did, and the voting, it does become a bit of a no-brainer. I'm going to try to save up (maybe get some overtime, or consulting work), and buy the 2072.

Damn expensive hobbies.... =P

At least now I have a power supply on the way (though, that did eat $85 out of my saving for the scope). =P

[saturation]

If you have a retailer near you or a good online vendor, most will let you try it for 1-2 weeks, no questions asked return.  Then you can have the 1000 series scope now or sooner, than wait a longer time to acquire a more costly scope.  You get more for your dollar in the 2000 series if you have more money to spend and you need those functions.  But until then, you are taking a gamble on whether your skill set for the near future will appreciate those extra capabilities.  Only you can answer that question.  If that time comes, the 1000 series is popular enough to easily sell; just note those that have been sold on eevblog by members and how long its takes to be sold.  On eBay, I see them sold used on bids for about $300, for new ones selling for $320!  Its certainly held its value.

http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?LH_ItemCondition=4&clk_rvr_id=467640924211&_nkw=1052e&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc

[staze]

gah!

I know, I know. Unfortunately, pretty sure there's no dealer nearby. But yeah, I know there's the question of if I'll really grow to use the 2000 series, etc. I think what I'm really going to do at this point is save (if I can... I keep finding ways to deplete my savings) until I have enough for the 2000 series, and at that point, I either buy it, or buy the 1000 series and some other stuff. Or, I'll have moved on in hobbies (I hope not). Who knows, maybe by the time I have that money saved (July/Aug), the price will tick down a bit. Looks like Instek and a couple other manufacturers have brought out scopes that may force Rigol down a little bit (maybe).

The 2000 series is just too damn sexy to NOT want. The intensity display was probably one of the biggest things that sold me... that and the wfps, etc.

Here's hoping, and thanks!

[Burak]

I 'm twisted  , 5th day reading this forum and I  can't answer for question:
 Which one DSO I should buy?

Rigol DS1052E=430$=Siglent SDS1072CML (36 months warranty, price including shipping)

-I don't know when Rigol stop correct&develop FW?
-in hacked FW always is a risk that developers find way to block possibility for upgrade overclock to 100Mhz DS1052E
-Siglent will stop manufacturing DSO with 5.7" LCD 30 April 2013,
-Siglent improved construction - SDS1000*** , but nobody tell about secret know-how?
-How long Siglent will be correct&develop FW?,
-How often update will be available?
-What is the difference in the quality of FW from Rigol and Siglent?

Is a trouble for me  to compare waveform DS1102E with SDS1072CML, because nobody present snapshots from SDS1072CML. I can expect that Siglent will be better from DS1052E (50Mhz) but it's hard to imagine how much worse than the DS1102E (100Mhz).

[rf-loop]

I hope before end of next week I can do some lab tests for SDS1102CML and SDS1072CML.
I believe they have  latest HW and FW.

I hope Siglent do not update FW and HW very often. SDS1000 series is not anymore newborn baby.

Last time I have only very quick test SDS1072CNL with newest FW version 5.01.02.13.
Not bad.

-----------------------------------------------------
ADD: Here you can find more new freq response test for SDS1072(CML)
BW is clearly improved in new HW. (also Equal Time mode is now lot of better in new FW (+HW))
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-scopes/
-----------------------------------------------------


Next images are from OLD tests using older SDS1072CNL
FW: 3.01.01.31R17
HW: 10-61-3.3

Frequency response -3dB point is (dependent about test setting) between 90 - 100MHz.
ADD: -3dB point is around 115-120MHz in new HW 11-61-3.3


Risetime using not so perfect <1ns risetime pulse.


same as before but persistence on (there can see also cursors are auto tracking)


Freguency response using linear sweep from 1MHz to 150MHz
Center is 60MHz and 15MHz/div. In this image -3dB is around  90MHz with this test setting.
(signal from generator using 50ohm coaxial and Tektronix 50ohm terminator in scope input. (this is not ok becouse total load is not 50ohm impedance mainly due to oscilloscope parallel capasitance. But accuracy "enough for this purpose".)


random image

and if some reason do not like black backround....







What is nice, it have dual timebase. In ALT mode both channel have of course individual separate trig, but also they may have different timebase.

If compare to Rigol DS1000E serie and if I remember all enough Siglent have more features.

(time ago (some year) I have also sold some Rigol DS1000E series and also tested them. With this experience, in this price class Rigol DS1000E was good and when it come to markets there was not so many others. It was first chinese DSO what quality I can accept also for sell to my friends so that I can also meet them later without need later run away.)

Everyone have its own needs and liking and financial situation. This is my personal opinion and NOT related to situation that I sell also Siglents.  I'm hobbyist and professional with measurements and electronics and selling is only very little sidecar and not so much business as "get all money you can"... no no and no.
 
If I get today nearly same price SDS1072CML or SDS1102CML  as Rigol DS1052E or DS1102E.
Selection is very very clear and I select Siglent without hesitation. (yes and I have both available as easily)

One I must say, Rigol probes building quality is littlebit better than what Siglent use (these what I have seen. Yes they work and no problem. I littlebit worry this rotary cable connection in scope end - why it is this rotary construction. Fixed is more reliable imho)


Of course there can do many kind of playing, one example with edge ?? trig:

(In this image used dot mode instead of line)

(there is 8ns "jump - no jump" jitter in signal timing, and also then added level jitter. Trigger is  some rising edge (left) before display area and trigger mode is of course edge ?? ))

Some more can find here http://siglent.freeforums.org/index.php
but sorry there is finnish language also. (but least some test images may show something more. Later I will continue with some more tests.

[EEVblog]

Hmm... so, then, stepping back, if you'd never owned a scope before, would any of those be huge?

Even a free 20MHz analog scope is a staggering tool when you have never owned a scope before!

I mean, look at it this way: You get a hankering to learn a musical instrument. You could go out and spend a few hundred for something that will let you play, and figure out if you want to keep at it, or just tinker. Or you spend a couple grand, and buy something that would get you into the local amateur band/orchestra, but it could be you lack the talent, or the couple hundred dollar instrument would have served well enough for that as well. Or hell, could be you decide you want to switch instruments....

Sure, if you don't want to spend much, pay <$400 and be happy. It'll be a fine tool.

[staze]

Sure, if you don't want to spend much, pay <$400 and be happy. It'll be a fine tool.

BAH. After you put the work into that blog, and showed the 1000 series compared to the 2000 series, there really is no contest. I'll just be saving up for the 2000 series at this point, and when I get there (money wise), I can decide if I want the 2000, or the 1000 with some other stuff, or hell, who knows! =)

I just have to quit spending my savings... =)

[casper.bang]

BAH. After you put the work into that blog, and showed the 1000 series compared to the 2000 series, there really is no contest. I'll just be saving up for the 2000 series at this point, and when I get there (money wise), I can decide if I want the 2000, or the 1000 with some other stuff, or hell, who knows! =)

I just have to quit spending my savings... =)

I thought we had established that of course there is no contest, the DS2000 series costs 2-3 times as much!  Dave is replying to rf-loops's comments regarding the Siglents vs. the Rigol DS1000's. Remember, the best tool is the one that's available to you and which will get you going; not the one that crams in most features per $.

[Burak]

rf-loop
thanks for your opinion, it reassure me that it's a good choice when I buy Siglent.

My scope I received in Thursday with startup times counter 1 
I succeeded make upgrade FW from 3.01.01.31R18 to 5.01.02.13 [HW 10-61-3.3]
the procedure was in two steps. First is a loading  *.ADS file - restart, second is loading *.cfg file - restart.

One I must say, Rigol probes building quality is littlebit better than what Siglent use (these what I have seen. Yes they work and no problem. I littlebit worry this rotary cable connection in scope end - why it is this rotary construction. Fixed is more reliable imho)

Yes it's true probes look shitty , during cable rotation noises are visible - fortunately I have better Hantek TP6100 
Delivered probes are signed PB470 70MHz (SDS1072CML)

Some more can find here http://siglent.freeforums.org/index.php
but sorry there is finnish language also.

Thanks again for http://siglent.freeforums.org/index.php . The infos from aghp are very helpful.

[ivan747]

Just for the record, I got a Rigol DS1052E after this thread. Something tells me it will be discontinued in the next 2 years, but I don't care. I have more important things to care about, like firmware maturity and widespread adoption and good support. Hey, it's a multi-hundred dollar purchase in the end. A scope can easily eat up to 50% of your lab budget in a single tool.

[Hydrawerk]

Something tells me it will be discontinued in the next 2 years, but I don't care.

LOL, it's not sure. Tektronix TDS2000, TDS1000 and TDS3000 remain in production even after ten years. And these scopes are really obsolete, but people buy them for some reason. Well, someone needs only 2,5k or 10k points memory per channel. 

[rf-loop]

Bandwidth in Siglent SDS1072(CML) in new HW is improved some amount.

test images here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-scopes/

[lapm]

Im looking this maybe little different perspective as someone that's coming back to building electronics after been away from it long time. And as someone that has newer had even semi decent lab. 

I would go for ds-1052e, and use that extra money to buy decent function generator. But that's just me. I don't need anything fancier then that. Will be a while before i come anywhere close to that 50 MHz bandwidth even.

[staze]

So, even though Dave did that amazing blog "post" comparing the two, I just can't justify the $830 I think for the 2072. =/ I'm just not sure how long I'll stay with the hobby, and I also figure I need a FG, etc.

So, I'm looking at the 1052e/1102e. That said, Curious question.

Do I buy a slightly used (6 months or so) 1052e for $280, or do I buy a brand new one for $330 (or so)?

[Electro Fan]

Looks like a number of people here are wrestling with similar questions and choices.

For what it's worth, I can't quite see why the DS1052E is even an option when you look at the pretty small extra price required by the DS1102E.

http://www.amazon.com/Rigol-DS1102E-Oscilloscope-Channels-Sampling/dp/B001VKCJ0M/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&m=A3DLN7K1UTIF0F&qid=1367893074&s=generic&sr=1-8

http://www.amazon.com/Rigol-DS1052E-50MHz-DSO/dp/B003MYND5A/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&m=A3DLN7K1UTIF0F&qid=1367893094&s=generic&sr=1-13

For $25 it would seem like a no-brainer to move from 50MHz to 100MHz but maybe I'm missing something?
Perhaps there are still lower prices out there on the DS1052E, but for $389 the DS1102E looks like a lot of value.

---

Update on my post:  looks like the DS1052E might be available for $319 or less... at some point the $ saved might be worthwhile for users that don't need the extra bandwidth:
http://www.tequipment.net/RigolDS1052E.html?Source=Google&gclid=CM-u48eJg7cCFYNx4AodL20ALg

[Galaxyrise]

For what it's worth, I can't quite see why the DS1052E is even an option when you look at the pretty small extra price required by the DS1102E.

Perhaps you're missing https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/changing-the-rigol-ds1052e-to-ds1102e-using-usb-the-dummy-guide/ ?

[staze]

For what it's worth, I can't quite see why the DS1052E is even an option when you look at the pretty small extra price required by the DS1102E.

Perhaps you're missing https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/changing-the-rigol-ds1052e-to-ds1102e-using-usb-the-dummy-guide/ ?

Correct. You can upgrade it.

Back to the question. $280 for a used 1052e, or $330 or so for a new one. Anyone know if Rigol allows warranty transfer?

[staze]

Seems Rigol has no stipulation about warranty transfer, so it shouldn't be an issue. 3 years is 3 years (where that 3 years starts is really based on whether proof of purchase is available).

Looks like, at this point, you can get a 1052e from tequipment for about $300. So really, savings are only $30 (used seller came down to $270). =/ Seems less than worth it. =/

[Galaxyrise]

And that $300 is with free shipping, too.

[staze]

Yeah... kind of hard to argue it's worth buying used gear only to save 10%. =/

Wish the tequipment discount (and new low price) were reflected on their amazon store!

[staze]

Just bought a new 1052e. Price on tequipment was just too good.

Thanks all!

[saturation]

Enjoy, $320 free ship, can't lose.  Test it thoroughly so you can return it sooner should it have assembly defects.

Just bought a new 1052e. Price on tequipment was just too good.

Thanks all!

[staze]

$300 actually, since eevblog members get the nice discount.

I do plan to test, but since I don't have a FG (yet), it's going to have to be pretty basic. Also plan to hack (to 100mhz) pretty early (after I'm sure it actually powers up and works).

Thanks!

[saturation]

Wow, that's the lowest yet I've heard.  Enjoy.

$300 actually, since eevblog members get the nice discount.

I do plan to test, but since I don't have a FG (yet), it's going to have to be pretty basic. Also plan to hack (to 100mhz) pretty early (after I'm sure it actually powers up and works).

Thanks!

[staze]

Just got my 1052e, and after confirming everything works, I used the hacked firmware to update to 100mhz. Seems to work great.

Do think the fan is a bit louder than I'd like, but nothing I'm not used to.

Now I just need a function generator.

[Salas]

I had an Instek SFG-1013 gen when I had that scope that I can recommend as stable and very good VFM. But if you want something more future proof as for bandwidth extension and much more flexibility there isn't anything really VFM than the Siglent series around. It has a jitter problem that the guys here managed to ameliorate enough by soldering a different small component on its PCB. An easy enough fix as I read.

[staze]

Cool, that (or it's little brother the 1003) is what I was looking at. Amazing what you can get for such a small price! So far, love the DS1052e, but the fan is a bit loud. Guessing in 6 months or so I'll hack a new fan in there...

What's weird is it starts out pretty quiet, but then ramps up. Looking at disassembly images, it doesn't seem like it is temp controlled... so, not sure what's up with that. Anyone hear the same thing?

[Salas]

Too me it was very annoying, a screamer, and I substituted it with a silent model. It went to whisper quiet level after that. Even my DS2000 fan I find annoying but half annoying to the DS1000 series one. I don't think it ever ramped up or down. It was a 2 wire fan fed off a steady voltage. Its about psychoacoustics IMO. The ear/brain locks to the annoyance after a while harder. Like tuning to a background conversation. See about the fan fix there also https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/rigol-1052e-fan-replacement/msg104898/#msg104898

[SLJ]

I would be interested in knowing the serial number of the new ones as I bought mine two months ago and it's quiet. Some of us thought they might have fixed the problem in the latest production run.  Serial number might be a clue.

[staze]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I'll post my serial number back here later tonight (PST).

[staze]

Serial number is : DS1ET150200741

[staze]

For the those who had asked me, the original fan has this spec: GLOFN GFA06015H12H, 5500rpm @12V DC, 34.2m3/h. 36.5dBA noise.
1 m3/h = 0.5885745 CFM. So 34.2m3/h translates to 20.13 CFM.

Exactly the info I was looking for! 5500rpm! And I don't believe that dBA for a second, that seems way too low given the fan speed. I don't see how the unit needs that kind of airflow. I used to have a real screamer CPU fan (Delta 60mm, like 47dBA (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835213012)) for something that put out about 75W... why would this Rigol need something that puts out half that airflow when it's only generating 1/4 or less of the heat?

http://www.nmbtc.com/all/part-numbers/search/2406KL-04W-B59-L00/5033

Guessing the scope doesn't need that much airflow. I'd think one of these would work just fine.

http://www.nmbtc.com/all/part-numbers/search/2406KL-04W-B39-L00/5031

Or better yet, though not sure they'd produce quite enough:

http://www.nmbtc.com/all/part-numbers/search/2406KL-04W-B10/3802 (19dB!, but only 6.7CFM)

[Salas]

Keep CFM the same. It does not blow onto something specific from a close distance, it just sucks out from a big enough cavity which is what the scope's bowels reside in. So it gotta move enough air. The one I used was there for CFM and was really quiet.

[staze]

*nods* just seems silly how loud it is.

I think I'll just drop an 80mm panaflo I have in there... 60mm fans are just loud by nature.

[SLJ]

Serial number is : DS1ET150200741

Mine is DS1ET144801866 and the fan is quiet.  Don't know how the serial numbers work.  Probably incorporate a date or production code.  Don't think they would be a half a million apart.
Maybe I got just lucky with mine.

[staze]

Mine is DS1ET144801866 and the fan is quiet.  Don't know how the serial numbers work.  Probably incorporate a date or production code.  Don't think they would be a half a million apart.
Maybe I got just lucky with mine.

Obviously some of this is qualitative. Your "quiet" could be "loud", and my "loud" could be quiet. Heck, I wouldn't even call mine "loud", it's just "louder than I would have thought for the device". Heck, old Analog scopes were certainly louder than this (my Drobo is louder than this, but it's still noticeable).

Either way the serials work, mine would seem to be a later production than yours. So I doubt that's it. I just figure in 6 months or so, when I know this thing is past it's likely early failure time, I'll pop it open and drop a quiet fan in there.

Now, if we had some db meters...

[SLJ]

My "Quiet" is quiet.  I have to turn the fan side toward me to hear the fan.  Quieter than any other test equipment I have with a fan.

[staze]

weird. don't understand why there would be such a difference.

[saturation]

Its likely variation in manufacture or the brand of fan used; if you hear noise its almost certainly the bearings or what is used for the same.  You pay a little extra for a truly classified as "low noise," fan.

weird. don't understand why there would be such a difference.

[staze]

Its likely variation in manufacture or the brand of fan used; if you hear noise its almost certainly the bearings or what is used for the same.  You pay a little extra for a truly classified as "low noise," fan.

weird. don't understand why there would be such a difference.

Understood. But mine isn't the bearing, it's just air flow noise... which is probably mostly caused by it being a 5500rpm fan (which seems crazy to me), and the air movement past all the grills. The only thing I can think is the "quiet" ones are the odd ones out, and they used a different OEM for the fan, or somehow set the fan voltage lower than the 10v or whatever someone measured was being fed to them. Anyway, not a huge deal. Just seems like something that should have been caught in their engineering phase (or at least in later revisions).

[saturation]

If so, consider:

http://www.jmcproducts.com/acoustic-noise/

Understood. But mine isn't the bearing, it's just air flow noise... which is probably mostly caused by it being a 5500rpm fan (which seems crazy to me), and the air movement past all the grills.

[staze]

yeah. I know most of this stuff (used to do a lot of custom PC work, water cooling, etc). =P

I'll just wait until I'm fairly certain the scope isn't going to die an early death before voiding the warranty and dropping a new fan in there, and maybe cut out some of the grills. =) Al la: http://www.arduinoos.com/2011/06/rigol-1052e-dso/

[staze]

Does anyone know if a 60mmx25mm fan will fit? the stock is only 15mm deep, it sounds like.

[Salas]

There is nothing behind the fan to obstruct it depth wise.

[staze]

awesome. So either a Gelid, or a Noctua. =)

[Galaxyrise]

So we all lose, as there wasn't an option for "buy one of each"!   Now that you have them both (and presumably have used them both a bit), how do you feel about your original question?

[staze]

So we all lose, as there wasn't an option for "buy one of each"!   Now that you have them both (and presumably have used them both a bit), how do you feel about your original question?

Well, I bought the DS1052, and work bought me the DS2072. =) So, it's still valid. =)

I really liked the DS1052e. It worked. It was simple, did what it should, and was really inexpensive. Used it to fix several pieces of equipment.

Yes, the DS2072 is better. Is it worth 3 times as much? I don't know yet, but with how much I've used it, maybe not, at least for what I do with the scope (electronics repair). Yeah, a $100 analog scope would have worked too, but I never found one I really liked for that price point.

What really muddies the waters is the new DS1000z series. 4 channels for $500 (if you include the tequipment eevblog discount)! And for not much more, you get an AWG. Crap, my bench (shelf) would be much less cluttered! =) I haven't used one, so who knows... but given the specs, I wouldn't hesitate a moment if it was my money. I'd grab the DS1000z and never look back.

But, if you only have the $300 like I had... I wouldn't hesitate a second to get the DS1052e unless you have some big need for the extra features of the higher end scope, or just hate buying older tech. The 1052 served me extremely well. I'm still not sure if I'm going to sell it, or keep it around (I could easily use it as another two channels by linking it to the DS2072).

Hopefully that makes sense. I can't really speak to the difference if you're doing higher end work, but for repair... depending on what it was, you could probably buy the 1052e and make that money back just on the hours billed for the repair. =)

[casper.bang]

The DS1000Z looks like the one I have been waiting for. I wish there were a 2-channel DS1000Z version as a direct replacement for the old DS1052E, but at €535 the DS1000Z is a lot more affordable than the €845 DS2000 (Batronix prices).

[saturation]

You get your money's worth as you buy up the Rigol family of scopes.  If you buy just what you need you get the biggest bang for buck.  Glad to see Rigol is innovating as best possible on the low end too.

Note, on the 1000z, per the specs, at 4 channels, the max sampling rate drops to 250Ms/s.

[Hydrawerk]

Well, the 1GSa/s ADCs are available since 1997 or so (remember TDS220), but they are still expensive.

[alm]

Those were not off the shelf ADCs, and used an analog shift register as fast in, slow out FIFO, so the actual ADC did not have to run at 1 GS/s.

[Attorney]

You get your money's worth as you buy up the Rigol family of scopes.  If you buy just what you need you get the biggest bang for buck.  Glad to see Rigol is innovating as best possible on the low end too.

Note, on the 1000z, per the specs, at 4 channels, the max sampling rate drops to 250Ms/s.

It's shame they didn't limit the sampling destruction to 500Ms/s as all four channels are engaged.  250Ms/s is a pretty big hit.   Otherwise, it looks like a great 70/100 MHz scope. 

Paul