Products > Test Equipment
Fluke 289 - yet a good investment nowadays?
J-R:
Not sure what the logic is behind expecting a company to not want to make money. They are supposed to lose money and be charities?
The demand and margins are not really there for Fluke to make something different, otherwise they would. Furthermore, I don't see anything similar to the 28x from Brymen or Hioki for example, so let's go bash them as well and cry about their laziness and corporate greed, yes? I'll gladly join in and say Brymen is a huge offender here as we still have zero Bluetooth support and a 20 year old Windows app.
Plenty of people use the Fluke 289 as-is, otherwise they wouldn't be selling on ebay for $350+. Also, older test equipment is still extremely popular for various reasons. That is actually a slight issue for many companies like Fluke and Keysight. People aren't looking to replace their gear as soon as something new and shiny comes out because the older product is still great. So sales are harder to come by.
But as mentioned, there is the UT-181A, but also the CEM DT-9979 & DT-9989. So they should dry those tears just fine, no?
rsjsouza:
--- Quote from: jchw4 on October 28, 2023, 06:43:48 am ---
--- Quote from: rsjsouza on October 11, 2023, 01:33:22 pm ---
--- Quote from: arturmariojr on October 11, 2023, 11:15:57 am ---So, for a giant of measurement industry, it would be a mandatory slogan: keep products ahead of competitors. Fluke has this capability, for sure. For us, costumers of technology, is the price to pay for - upgrade, upgrade, upgrade...
--- End quote ---
Artur, as you are probably aware, DMMs are not consumer products like iPhones, thus the pressure for HW and SW upgrades/updates/new features is not as critical.
Moreover, the device is self-contained and therefore does not become obsolete with the passing of years - it still performs its functions as long as it is calibrated and functional.
Over the years it has been quite clear that Fluke's strategy for portable multimeters is to maintain consistency, reliability and quality control to stay ahead of the competition - naturally they fight hard to keep unblemished their brand recognition and perceived value as well (they are not stupid). Innovation and adventurous departures from their established designs, howerver, happen in many areas other than portable multimeters.
--- End quote ---
Making a lot of money in sales does not make the product great. Finding a way to sell 20-years old design is a huge deal for business.
“Pecunia non olet”. Money does not stink.
But the product does. It rots with time and stinks.
Doing nothing "strategy"? Sure, it helps to make money.
"Let all the engineers go, hire contractors to make another product and sell it for 25 years" - a huge number of products in the world are made like this. There are a many companies that basically consist of CEO, CFO and legal.
Does it make the company great? Sure! Does that product stink? Yes, it does.
--- End quote ---
If your definition of a product that does not "stink" is something that has continuous updates for the ultimate "features" and "technologies" and has a yearly rebranded/reworked user interface, then you couldn't be living in a better time than now. Zotek, Mestek and other OEMs will be able to feed your frantic chase for the novelty.
Also, if you think the product "rots" just because it keeps living in its original form (or with minute changes) over the decades, and can still be valuable and in full operational condition after the terrible state that several units can be found in many eBay and other used marketplaces, then I can imagine that you never had to support a product with such long production run. Do they need the same amount of engineering as a brand new product? Surely not, but that doesn't cast them to a state of decay as you suggest.
If you have not paid attention, Fluke has innovated in some of their other product lines (thermal imagers, for example) and, AFAIK, features the only DMMs with detachable screens for specific environments.
So your reasons to disapprove their strategy (without quotes) lack substance.
jchw4:
--- Quote from: J-R on October 28, 2023, 10:13:33 am ---Not sure what the logic is behind expecting a company to not want to make money. They are supposed to lose money and be charities?
--- End quote ---
I did not say that. I just said that the fact that a company is making money does not always mean that their product is not outdated.
Their money is good for them. Why is it relevant to the 289 model?
--- Quote ---The demand and margins are not really there for Fluke to make something different, otherwise they would.
--- End quote ---
My little understanding about how a market economy works is that they won't until they really have to.
--- Quote ---Furthermore, I don't see anything similar to the 28x from Brymen or Hioki for example, so let's go bash them as well and cry about their laziness and corporate greed, yes? I'll gladly join in and say Brymen is a huge offender here as we still have zero Bluetooth support and a 20 year old Windows app.
--- End quote ---
You get the idea.
If it looks like a duck ...
If we believe that "the longest selling model is the best" then everybody should go get Simpson 260.
How many years have they been making it? 70? It looks more like 80.
(I am pretty sure you would consider it a joke.)
--- Quote ---Plenty of people use the Fluke 289 as-is, otherwise they wouldn't be selling on ebay for $350+. Also, older test equipment is still extremely popular for various reasons. That is actually a slight issue for many companies like Fluke and Keysight. People aren't looking to replace their gear as soon as something new and shiny comes out because the older product is still great. So sales are harder to come by.
--- End quote ---
People weren't looking to replace their phones with touch screens until there was an iPhone.
Actually it's not exactly true. I remember that I dreamed of a mobile Palm computer. So did others around me. There was a feeling that the phones "stink".
--- Quote ---But as mentioned, there is the UT-181A, but also the CEM DT-9979 & DT-9989. So they should dry those tears just fine, no?
--- End quote ---
I have never seen any of these and I cannot comment whether they are modern meters in any sense.
--- Quote from: rsjsouza on October 28, 2023, 11:29:19 am ---
--- Quote from: jchw4 on October 28, 2023, 06:43:48 am ---
--- Quote from: rsjsouza on October 11, 2023, 01:33:22 pm ---
--- Quote from: arturmariojr on October 11, 2023, 11:15:57 am ---So, for a giant of measurement industry, it would be a mandatory slogan: keep products ahead of competitors. Fluke has this capability, for sure. For us, costumers of technology, is the price to pay for - upgrade, upgrade, upgrade...
--- End quote ---
Artur, as you are probably aware, DMMs are not consumer products like iPhones, thus the pressure for HW and SW upgrades/updates/new features is not as critical.
Moreover, the device is self-contained and therefore does not become obsolete with the passing of years - it still performs its functions as long as it is calibrated and functional.
Over the years it has been quite clear that Fluke's strategy for portable multimeters is to maintain consistency, reliability and quality control to stay ahead of the competition - naturally they fight hard to keep unblemished their brand recognition and perceived value as well (they are not stupid). Innovation and adventurous departures from their established designs, howerver, happen in many areas other than portable multimeters.
--- End quote ---
Making a lot of money in sales does not make the product great. Finding a way to sell a 20-years old design is a huge deal for business.
“Pecunia non olet”. Money does not stink.
But the product does. It rots with time and stinks.
Doing nothing "strategy"? Sure, it helps to make money.
"Let all the engineers go, hire contractors to make another product and sell it for 25 years" - a huge number of products in the world are made like this. There are a many companies that basically consist of CEO, CFO and legal.
Does it make the company great? Sure! Does that product stink? Yes, it does.
--- End quote ---
If your definition of a product that does not "stink" is something that has continuous updates for the ultimate "features" and "technologies" and has a yearly rebranded/reworked user interface, then you couldn't be living in a better time than now. Zotek, Mestek and other OEMs will be able to feed your frantic chase for the novelty.
--- End quote ---
No, this is not my definition.
Product is definitely outdated if you can find other products that have features for 1/10 of the original price.
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/motorola-moto-g-play-2023-32gb-unlocked-navy-blue/6525883.p Motorola Moto G Play (2023) (Unlocked) $109.99 .
Specs: https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_moto_g_play_(2023)-11957.php
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805783498187.html Cubot Note 21 Smartphone 12GB+128GB 6.56"HD+Screen $89 (Free delivery!)
Specs: https://www.gsmarena.com/cubot_note_21-12544.php
A portable computer for $874.99 (https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-289) should have one of them inside. No excuse.
--- Quote ---Also, if you think the product "rots" just because it keeps living in its original form (or with minute changes) over the decades, and can still be valuable and in full operational condition after the terrible state that several units can be found in many eBay and other used marketplaces, then I can imagine that you never had to support a product with such long production run. Do they need the same amount of engineering as a brand new product? Surely not, but that doesn't cast them to a state of decay as you suggest.
--- End quote ---
Are you talking about Simpson 260? It can be repaired basically in any condition. Probably even after being hit by a railway car. (I am not sure a railway car has any chances of surving after this collision.)
Much better than 289!
--- Quote ---If you have not paid attention, Fluke has innovated in some of their other product lines (thermal imagers, for example) and, AFAIK, features the only DMMs with detachable screens for specific environments.
So your reasons to disapprove their strategy (without quotes) lack substance.
--- End quote ---
I feel that you did not pay attention to what I said. I am totally fine with their strategy. They are making money and God bless them.
Why does this make 289 a modern meter? Why do their thermal imagers make 289 any better? Maybe It could be used as a souvenir to remind somebody that they also make good thermal imagers. :-//
rsjsouza:
--- Quote from: jchw4 on October 29, 2023, 10:32:21 am ---
--- Quote from: rsjsouza on October 28, 2023, 11:29:19 am ---
--- Quote from: jchw4 on October 28, 2023, 06:43:48 am ---
--- Quote from: rsjsouza on October 11, 2023, 01:33:22 pm ---
--- Quote from: arturmariojr on October 11, 2023, 11:15:57 am ---So, for a giant of measurement industry, it would be a mandatory slogan: keep products ahead of competitors. Fluke has this capability, for sure. For us, costumers of technology, is the price to pay for - upgrade, upgrade, upgrade...
--- End quote ---
Artur, as you are probably aware, DMMs are not consumer products like iPhones, thus the pressure for HW and SW upgrades/updates/new features is not as critical.
Moreover, the device is self-contained and therefore does not become obsolete with the passing of years - it still performs its functions as long as it is calibrated and functional.
Over the years it has been quite clear that Fluke's strategy for portable multimeters is to maintain consistency, reliability and quality control to stay ahead of the competition - naturally they fight hard to keep unblemished their brand recognition and perceived value as well (they are not stupid). Innovation and adventurous departures from their established designs, howerver, happen in many areas other than portable multimeters.
--- End quote ---
Making a lot of money in sales does not make the product great. Finding a way to sell a 20-years old design is a huge deal for business.
“Pecunia non olet”. Money does not stink.
But the product does. It rots with time and stinks.
Doing nothing "strategy"? Sure, it helps to make money.
"Let all the engineers go, hire contractors to make another product and sell it for 25 years" - a huge number of products in the world are made like this. There are a many companies that basically consist of CEO, CFO and legal.
Does it make the company great? Sure! Does that product stink? Yes, it does.
--- End quote ---
If your definition of a product that does not "stink" is something that has continuous updates for the ultimate "features" and "technologies" and has a yearly rebranded/reworked user interface, then you couldn't be living in a better time than now. Zotek, Mestek and other OEMs will be able to feed your frantic chase for the novelty.
--- End quote ---
No, this is not my definition.
Product is definitely outdated if you can find other products that have features for 1/10 of the original price.
--- End quote ---
Outdated is of little importance for products that still perform their original function. Obsolescence is what happens when the original function is not required anymore (or is deliberately forced to cessation of existence).
Also, price and value are two very distinct things. A common mistake is to restrict features to tangible aspects and assume they are the only aggregator of value. Features of a product, especially on the B2B sector which where most of the T&M players are, can also be reliability, track record, documentation, warranty and serviceability (which indeed these meters barely have but that is not exclusive to Fluke).
--- Quote from: jchw4 on October 29, 2023, 10:32:21 am ---A portable computer for $874.99 (https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-289) should have one of them inside. No excuse.
--- End quote ---
No, it shouldn't if the existing hardware does the job. That does not make the product "stink", it only makes it overpriced for some, a right price for others.
--- Quote from: jchw4 on October 29, 2023, 10:32:21 am ---
--- Quote ---Also, if you think the product "rots" just because it keeps living in its original form (or with minute changes) over the decades, and can still be valuable and in full operational condition after the terrible state that several units can be found in many eBay and other used marketplaces, then I can imagine that you never had to support a product with such long production run. Do they need the same amount of engineering as a brand new product? Surely not, but that doesn't cast them to a state of decay as you suggest.
--- End quote ---
Are you talking about Simpson 260? It can be repaired basically in any condition. Probably even after being hit by a railway car. (I am not sure a railway car has any chances of surving after this collision.)
Much better than 289!
--- End quote ---
I fail to get where Simpson was mentioned in my post, but they are another example of a product that, although quite durable, perfectly meet your exact definition of a product that "stinks" - no "feature updates" and incredibly expensive.
And that is where you reveal that you have an axe to grind with Fluke and its 289 product: I am not defending Fluke, but instead simply pointing what it seems to be their strategy for portable meters, which differs to what we were conditioned to believe is the mark of a quality product: constant flow of new versions with features, timely software updates, quick replacement and obsolescence and so on.
--- Quote from: jchw4 on October 29, 2023, 10:32:21 am ---
--- Quote ---If you have not paid attention, Fluke has innovated in some of their other product lines (thermal imagers, for example) and, AFAIK, features the only DMMs with detachable screens for specific environments.
So your reasons to disapprove their strategy (without quotes) lack substance.
--- End quote ---
I feel that you did not pay attention to what I said. I am totally fine with their strategy. They are making money and God bless them.
--- End quote ---
Your prior post hints of contempt for their strategy, so you seem to disapprove of it. Apologies if that was not your intent.
--- Quote from: jchw4 on October 29, 2023, 10:32:21 am ---Why does this make 289 a modern meter? Why do their thermal imagers make 289 any better? Maybe It could be used as a souvenir to remind somebody that they also make good thermal imagers. :-//
--- End quote ---
Again, I am not discussing if the 289 is modern or not. I am talking about their strategy for portable meters.
Mind you I am not a Fluke fanboy - I like some of their meters, despite others, and recognize that their position in the current marketplace is not of a bleeding edge of portable DMMs.
jchw4:
--- Quote from: rsjsouza on October 29, 2023, 11:42:01 am ---Outdated is of little importance for products that still perform their original function.
--- End quote ---
Simpson 260 still performs its original function. Is is an outdated meter? How many users would agree to swap their current digital meters with Simpson 260 today?
I am pretty sure that majoity of users would disagree with your statement. Users needs and users expectations is what metters.
--- Quote ---Also, price and value are two very distinct things. A common mistake is to restrict features to tangible aspects and assume they are the only aggregator of value. Features of a product, especially on the B2B sector which where most of the T&M players are, can also be reliability, track record, documentation, warranty and serviceability (which indeed these meters barely have but that is not exclusive to Fluke).
--- End quote ---
I am not a B2B. I am just an engeneer looking at what some companies offer and at what price.
If I really need legal papers required for licences, insurance, etc. I might have to buy that meter at the price they want.
But it won't change the fact that it is 20+ years old design. It performs well to the specs of a lawyer and their dog. And they are happy. I will probably just feel robbed.
--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: jchw4 on October 29, 2023, 10:32:21 am ---Why does this make 289 a modern meter? Why do their thermal imagers make 289 any better? Maybe It could be used as a souvenir to remind somebody that they also make good thermal imagers. :-//
--- End quote ---
Again, I am not discussing if the 289 is modern or not. I am talking about their strategy for portable meters.
--- End quote ---
This thread was specifically about 289. Company strategy is probably irrelevant to whether a particular product is outdated.
Promoting a 20+ years old electronic design as a top product is a shame.
We can discuss why they are still doing that. But at the end the answer would be "because they can". It's still irrelevant to a particular model.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version