Is a Flir E4 worth buying for this or is something else better...

[alank2]

I am thinking, well, somewhat thinking about buying a Flir E4 from TEquipment.  I've wanted a thermal camera for a long time, but I'm not sure if I can really justify the tool(toy) for the $$$ it costs.  Right off the bat, I'd like to use it to see if my reflow oven has any cold spots or hot spots by looking at the boards the next time I bake some.  I'd like it to see how warm boards get that I make or design.  I'd like it for all the other things you can do with a thermal camera like seeing where your insulation is weak, etc.  The one thing that holds me back is the price $$$.  These things are not cheap.  Will cheaper ones be showing up around the corner?  What are the pros and cons to this model...

[CrashO]

Dave did a side by side between a Flir TG165 (about half the price of the E4) and the E8 .
Might be helpful. 

[Bud]

Not sure how you going to use the camera , by pointing at the oven glass window? You may not be able to see thru it, the glass may not be IR transparent. Do not know what they use in industrial ovens, I will try with my toaster oven an report the result.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Not sure how you going to use the camera , by pointing at the oven glass window? You may not be able to see thru it, the glass may not be IR transparent. Do not know what they use in industrial ovens, I will try with my toaster oven an report the result.

It will not see through it.

the hacked E4 is still the best value "proper" thermal camera available.
By "proper" I mean as opposed to toys like the Seek and (current) Flir One, which though having some uses have significant limitations, especially when you want to measure temp over a reasonable range.

[alank2]

It will not see through it.

Yep, it would have to be an open the door and see what it looks like type thing.

the hacked E4 is still the best value "proper" thermal camera available.

Can the current model be hacked still?  What features?

[Bud]

The E4 was hacked to the extent we did not know what to do with all discovered features. Also knowledge of the scripting language was required to continue. Couple new features have been added by manipulations in the code. Personally I think hardly anyone can make use of all that was enabled/added.

[Bud]

Could not see through the oven door (temperature in the oven abt 200C).

With the oven door open hard to tell anything as to if/where hot spots may be on the PCB. Also you interrupt the reflow process when open the oven door, so hardly this method may be usable anyway.

[aargee]

You will find lots of uses for it, I was trying to decide 18 months ago when the first of the hacks were being proven. I'm glad I bought it - better than night vision for seeing people/animals, all the drafts around the house, that burning out 1117 regulator....
One use was when I had a power supply in pieces all over the bench and smelt the hot smell. Powered off and the E4 made it easy to see the problem

I'm just glad that this thing has its Phased Locked Loops locked.   

[nctnico]

How about the Flir C2? That seems like a reasonable standalone thermal imager which can also be used at a short range.

[alank2]

I looked at the c2 it only goes to 302F (150C) - would that be limiting?

[alank2]

I haven't been following the unlockability.  Can the current firmware version be unlocked as far as resolution?  What other features?

[nctnico]

I looked at the c2 it only goes to 302F (150C) - would that be limiting?

I don't think that will be a limitation for electronics use. In 99.99% of the circuits you don't want components to get that hot.

[georges80]

From my own experience imaging surface mount circuit boards, MSX is somewhat useless since once you have adjusted the focus to allow the thermal imager to be a few inches from the PCB, the MSX overlay is too far offset and you can adjust it far enough to overlay correctly.

That means turning off MSX and then you need a lot more pixels than 80x60 to be able to get a good idea of what component you are looking at. Besides 80x60 is pretty hopeless in general (without MSX).

So, for my use, the E4+ (E8 resolution) is basically the minimum (and sufficient) for looking at components that are 0603 is smaller. The E4+ is a very useful tool *IF* you need to thermal image things, otherwise it's another 'come in handy one day gadget'...

cheers,
george.

[mikeselectricstuff]

From my own experience imaging surface mount circuit boards, MSX is somewhat useless since once you have adjusted the focus to allow the thermal imager to be a few inches from the PCB, the MSX overlay is too far offset and you can adjust it far enough to overlay correctly.

That means turning off MSX and then you need a lot more pixels than 80x60 to be able to get a good idea of what component you are looking at. Besides 80x60 is pretty hopeless in general (without MSX).

cheers,
george.

True but at close range you just don't need MSX as you're close enough to the subject that it's obvious what you are looking at. 
At longer ranges, it's hard to judge camera angle to know where you're pointing, but at close range, x/y position is dominant over angle, so much easier to judge.

[georges80]

From my own experience imaging surface mount circuit boards, MSX is somewhat useless since once you have adjusted the focus to allow the thermal imager to be a few inches from the PCB, the MSX overlay is too far offset and you can adjust it far enough to overlay correctly.

That means turning off MSX and then you need a lot more pixels than 80x60 to be able to get a good idea of what component you are looking at. Besides 80x60 is pretty hopeless in general (without MSX).

cheers,
george.

True but at close range you just don't need MSX as you're close enough to the subject that it's obvious what you are looking at. 
At longer ranges, it's hard to judge camera angle to know where you're pointing, but at close range, x/y position is dominant over angle, so much easier to judge.

Yes, but my point is that MSX doesn't make an 80 x 60 sensor provide great results if you're trying to image something close (like a PCB). For that you need more pixels, 80 x 60 is pretty useless.

cheers,
george.

[Wim_L]

I thought the E4 was 'focus free' (i.e.fixed focus), and not particularly good for short distance work in the first place.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I thought the E4 was 'focus free' (i.e.fixed focus), and not particularly good for short distance work in the first place.

You just need to either get/make a lens adjust tool or use an external lens, e.g. lasercutter optic, then it works as close as you can get

[alank2]

I thought I read somewhere around here about a member who had some lens holders made?  Does anyone have a link to that thread or know who it was?  I've tried searching, but can't find it...

[georges80]

I made a lens holder (for the laser cutting lenses you can buy on ebay), also made a rotating tool for the built in lens and also made a holder for the E4 - all 3d printed.

There's several posts in the BIG E4 thread - search for my user name...

cheers,
george.