Author Topic: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.  (Read 5848 times)

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Online xavier60

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Offline james_s

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2020, 06:36:35 am »
Neither, the 87-III was superior, they ruined it with the V by making the current modes default to AC every time.

I don't do Twitter.
 

Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2020, 06:55:28 am »
Neither, the 87-III was superior, they ruined it with the V by making the current modes default to AC every time.

I don't do Twitter.
I sometimes wonder how often electricians use the 10A range to measure AC compared to the rest of us mainly doing the odd DC measurement.
I'm certain that electricians would prefer the convenience and safety of a current clamp meter anyway.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 03:18:43 am by xavier60 »
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2020, 08:14:42 am »
The 101 and 189 and the only Flukes worth having.

The 101 is cheap/safe, the 189 just excels.

 
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Offline coromonadalix

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2020, 10:52:15 am »
Neither, the 87-III was superior, they ruined it with the V by making the current modes default to AC every time.

I don't do Twitter.

Yep they ruined it  .... the 187 or 189 where the best meters ever,  before the "Bulky 187-189 II"
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2020, 12:53:15 pm »
Neither, the 87-III was superior, they ruined it with the V by making the current modes default to AC every time.

I don't do Twitter.
I sometimes wonder how often electricians use the 10A range to measure AC compared to the rest of us mainly doing the odd DC measurement.
I'm certain that electricians would prefer the convenience and safety of a current clamp anyway.
Above all, I find it hard to believe that it'd be that hard to make the default current mode a user setting. Or heck, sell two versions jumpered differently, like an 87V and 87Vd or something.
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2020, 02:52:10 pm »
Neither, the 87-III was superior, they ruined it with the V by making the current modes default to AC every time.
If like me current measurements are not your thing, this wouldn't be an impairment for the 87V.

The 101 and 189 and the only Flukes worth having.

The 101 is cheap/safe, the 189 just excels.
The 189 is a good meter, although the competition caught up to it. It also does not have the same robustness as the 87V and 179.

IMHO the 101 is way too basic for the price - there are better meters out there for a tad higher price from Brymen, Sanwa, Hioki, etc, but obviously your mileage may vary. Out of the two 101 I got this year, one was returned due to a factory failure and both had bad discoloring on the exposed copper on PCB vias and PCB connections to the input terminals. Both of them were from different lots and different sellers, although none an authorized distributor. Due to this, I personally would never recommend it due to the apparent quality control problems, unless you can buy it from an authorized distributor and really want a Fluke.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 02:55:06 pm by rsjsouza »
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2020, 03:17:23 pm »
The 189 is a good meter, although the competition caught up to it.

The competition overtook Fluke a few years ago. All that's left is the memories.

(and the yellow color)
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2020, 03:36:14 pm »
The competition overtook Fluke a few years ago. All that's left is the memories.
(and the yellow color)

For most of Fluke's business there really isn't any competition.  The $200 bang-for-buck hobbyist market isn't really their focus.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline coromonadalix

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2020, 04:48:05 pm »
The 189 is a good meter, although the competition caught up to it.

The competition overtook Fluke a few years ago. All that's left is the memories.

(and the yellow color)

Aaaaaand my two working 189   :-DD
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2020, 06:46:29 pm »
The 189 is a good meter, although the competition caught up to it.

The competition overtook Fluke a few years ago. All that's left is the memories.

(and the yellow color)
Here's a hint for you: people don't buy Fluke for the features.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2020, 07:11:00 pm »
(and the yellow color)
Here's a hint for you: people don't buy Fluke for the features.

They buy it for the color. Yellow color shows you know what you're doing when you turn up at a job site.

 

Offline tooki

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2020, 08:42:32 pm »
(and the yellow color)
Here's a hint for you: people don't buy Fluke for the features.

They buy it for the color. Yellow color shows you know what you're doing when you turn up at a job site.
Hint #2: it’s not the color, either.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2020, 10:32:17 pm »
https://twitter.com/FlukeCorp/status/1281233432639680516

Start a vote here...
Otherwise, clearly the 87V.
Although in private I got a brymen 869s, which is "better" and cheaper.
But here is the choice between 87V and 179.


Online rsjsouza

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2020, 10:54:26 pm »
https://twitter.com/FlukeCorp/status/1281233432639680516

Start a vote here...
Otherwise, clearly the 87V.
Although in private I got a brymen 869s, which is "better" and cheaper.
But here is the choice between 87V and 179.
I agree with starting a vote here.
However, when considering budget, the difference is not so clear. Even more so if the entire 175/177/179 family is put in the plate.

(and the yellow color)
Here's a hint for you: people don't buy Fluke for the features.

They buy it for the color. Yellow color shows you know what you're doing when you turn up at a job site.
Hint #2: it’s not the color, either.
Knowing Fungus, he is clearly being sarcastic. :-DD
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2020, 10:59:13 pm »
Quote
However, when considering budget, the difference is not so clear. Even more so if the entire 175/177/179 family is put in the plate.

We got several 177 and 179 here...Don´t like them what the price concerns.
For this price, there are "better" ones avaible.
But fluke is the industrial standard, so we got only fluke here (+100pcs) and it will never changed.  ;)

Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2020, 11:19:34 pm »
My main worry is the possibility of Fluke doing other dumb things to the 87.
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Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2020, 03:30:29 am »
https://twitter.com/FlukeCorp/status/1281233432639680516

Start a vote here...
Otherwise, clearly the 87V.
Although in private I got a brymen 869s, which is "better" and cheaper.
But here is the choice between 87V and 179.
While Brymen refuse to add Diode test beeps, the 87V will remain as my main go to DMM. They have been asked.
I own a Brymen BM857S.

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Offline Arhigos

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2020, 03:58:53 am »
Neither, the 87-III was superior, they ruined it with the V by making the current modes default to AC every time.

I don't do Twitter.

88-V is doing DC instead of AC by default
 
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Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2020, 04:02:18 am »
Neither, the 87-III was superior, they ruined it with the V by making the current modes default to AC every time.

I don't do Twitter.

88-V is doing DC instead of AC by default
How long has that existed for?
Now to look for any unpleasant surprises.
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Offline Arhigos

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2020, 04:12:28 am »
Neither, the 87-III was superior, they ruined it with the V by making the current modes default to AC every time.

I don't do Twitter.

88-V is doing DC instead of AC by default
How long has that existed for?
Now to look for any unpleasant surprises.

88-v is pretty old meter. I checked manual at fluke website and it's dated 2004. However it's not very popular meter from what i can see.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2020, 08:39:08 am »
https://twitter.com/FlukeCorp/status/1281233432639680516

Start a vote here...
Otherwise, clearly the 87V.
Although in private I got a brymen 869s, which is "better" and cheaper.
But here is the choice between 87V and 179.
While Brymen refuse to add Diode test beeps, the 87V will remain as my main go to DMM. They have been asked.
I own a Brymen BM857S.

So new BM78x series is for you... Auto hold and diode mode was added..
 
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Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2020, 08:54:35 pm »
Quote
While Brymen refuse to add Diode test beeps

Hm...Didn´t miss that.
My eyes are always on the display when measure something.

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2020, 09:02:16 pm »
Quote
While Brymen refuse to add Diode test beeps

Hm...Didn´t miss that.
My eyes are always on the display when measure something.

Me too, never had much use for Autohold either...
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2020, 09:23:40 pm »
We´re old school guys, I guess.. ;)
 
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Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2020, 10:01:24 pm »
Old school Fluke 77 has Diode test beeps. Now I always expect it.
Was very disappointing to find that my Fluke 18B+ doesn't do Diode test beeps.

Edit: Not certain that the 77 should be referred to as "old school".
Vintage, maybe.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 11:00:48 pm by xavier60 »
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Offline james_s

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2020, 10:36:05 pm »
That is my biggest complaint about the 87-III, actually the only complaint that I can think of. They brought back that feature in the V but messed up the current modes. Since I have a Fluke bench meter that has the diode test beep I manage ok, why they ever decided to omit that feature is beyond me.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2020, 10:39:22 pm »
Quote
While Brymen refuse to add Diode test beeps

Hm...Didn´t miss that.
My eyes are always on the display when measure something.

You've never used a meter with that feature have you? Or you don't do much repair work? It's a HUGE time saver when you have a board in front of you and are looking for a shorted semiconductor. Unless you can look in two directions at once I don't see how you can have your eyes on the meter while also watching where you're poking the probes and if you're trying to test 30 or 40 parts it requires looking down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, it's SO much easier to just listen for the short beep for a good junction or steady beep for a short.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2020, 10:59:37 pm »
Quote
You've never used a meter with that feature have you? Or you don't do much repair work?

No, I´m just working in a testfield with service and repair for over 17 years.. 8)

Quote
it's SO much easier to just listen for the short beep for a good junction or steady beep for a short.

Of course it is.
But normally diodes and transistors are on a pcb, which lying on the table/in front of me in a case, so I don´t have to look/move around.
Further:
Junction beep "tells" you that somehow there is a junction, but you don´t know the breakdown value when you´re not look at it.
Same with "short" : Most multimeters beeps under a specific resistance value, NOT by short ("0 ohm").
Don´t trust your ears only...

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2020, 11:02:03 pm »
I've been using the Amprobe 37XR-A for the past 9 years, and it's been great. It's the only meter I've found that tests everything I need it to... of course I have a bunch of other meters anyway, but that's the main one.
"I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious." - Steven Wright
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2020, 02:18:53 am »
Of course it is.
But normally diodes and transistors are on a pcb, which lying on the table/in front of me in a case, so I don´t have to look/move around.
Further:
Junction beep "tells" you that somehow there is a junction, but you don´t know the breakdown value when you´re not look at it.
Same with "short" : Most multimeters beeps under a specific resistance value, NOT by short ("0 ohm").
Don´t trust your ears only...

It provides a quick go/no-go indication, when testing a bunch of similar components I often find one that is shorted very quickly and then zero in on that area and do more detailed testing. For example output transistors in a stereo amplifier, beep beep beep beep beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep, shorted transistor located in about 5 seconds without ever lifting my eyes off the board. Reading then confirmed by glancing at the display. I don't trust my ears only, but it is an invaluable time saver for the initial pass. I used an older Fluke (29?) for about 20 years before I got my 87 and I immediately missed the diode beep, and still miss it. I have used it very successfully for many years.
 

Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2020, 04:51:22 am »
This discussion reminds of  the Wall Eyed Wally scene from Paradise PD, funny!
https://64.media.tumblr.com/2860168b5f35303ad82fbbed5eeae243/e8322ea9f57e8b21-b5/s1280x1920/f155a4ed1878ad0dd79e8eb2546b07e8219d4145.png
"I'm doing both mom"
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 09:07:59 am by xavier60 »
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2020, 09:47:34 am »
Without that diode function it is also beep beep.... :-DD

Except when you hear beep, it is dead short (not really actually, so you have to look to the screen anyways), if you hear short beep it is capacitor discharging.
With diodes, I like to know if it is schottky or not, (or germanium in the old days, or SiC maybe?)
Diode with capacitor will beep in both directions.. But show different settled value. And my preference is for non latched continuity, because it will beep differently in different directions..

Lot of troubleshooting I do on plugged in device (if it doesn't smoke, that is), and try to isolate bad part functionally, not by testing components in bulk.. So  I end up with "it's somewhere here", and then, most of the time you pull the critical parts out to test them in isolation, because other components make proper testing hard.

Don't get me wrong, if it is helpful to the way you work, that's great. But Martin and me ( and I would guess many others across the world) that developed their techniques around different available instruments and different environment (there is a difference in engineering approach between US, EU, Japan...) got used to something else and don't find it so important. That is normal.
 
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Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2020, 09:50:05 pm »
Another useful aspect to the Diode test on the 87V is that it outputs 1mA CC.
So for example if a reading of close to 0.100V is seen, it is very likely that a 100Ω resistor is across the junction.

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Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2020, 10:00:02 pm »
I like the 87V too, we got....20...25pcs from it, it´s our "standard" precise multimeter, fitting in nearly every situation.
Except today, as I must measure a 40khz sinewave(testsignal for a transformer).
But we got some 187 also, so I took one of them, their bandwith are higher (fluke 87: 20khz).
The 179, we got 6pcs from - Advantage are the 1000V capability and with 1000hz bandwith, it measures 400hz systems accourate.
In private I wouldn´t buy it, for it´s money you can get proper brymen multis.

 
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Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2020, 10:52:08 pm »
When changing to another brand/model, it's not always possible to anticipate the missing features.
For me it was the missing Diode beeps.
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Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2020, 11:06:17 pm »
Well...
Everyone has his personal preferences, you need beeps, I don´t.



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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2020, 11:09:56 pm »
Fluke 87IV, ummmm sexy! I own a 789, nice!



from https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-87-iv-repair-log/
 

Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2020, 12:23:54 am »
I'm now really regretting not being aware of the 88V. They are comparably priced to the 87V.
I'll have a crack at getting a used one on ebay.
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2020, 08:53:08 am »
Another useful aspect to the Diode test on the 87V is that it outputs 1mA CC.
So for example if a reading of close to 0.100V is seen, it is very likely that a 100Ω resistor is across the junction.

Well that is not good enough..  :-DD
Metrix 3293 has 10 mA 100 Ohm mode, and low diode (4-5V 1mA) and high diode mode (27V 10mA)

When changing to another brand/model, it's not always possible to anticipate the missing features.
For me it was the missing Diode beeps.

Like I said, that is perfectly OK by me. You should do whatever works best for you. I'm just saying that my experience shown that is not good to get hung up to anything single vendor (or single instrument specific) as fundamental, every day, technique.  You should be perfectly capable to work without it too, just in case, but use it to your advantage when available..
 

Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2020, 10:25:34 am »
There is a thread on the 88V, https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-88v-vs-87v/
I totally would have overlooked the, * The 88V defaults to manual ranging on the voltage ranges only. 6V for AC and 60V for DC. This can be changed normally or with a power-up option.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2020, 08:05:53 pm »
Like I said, that is perfectly OK by me. You should do whatever works best for you. I'm just saying that my experience shown that is not good to get hung up to anything single vendor (or single instrument specific) as fundamental, every day, technique.  You should be perfectly capable to work without it too, just in case, but use it to your advantage when available..

I am perfectly capable of working without it, and I like the 87-III enough that I've put up with it but I do still sorely miss the feature when I go to repair something with suspect shorted semiconductors. Thankfully I have a bench meter that has the feature so I can use that if I'm at my bench.
 
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Online J-R

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2020, 05:37:14 am »
The Fluke 87V gets my vote compared to the 179 due to the 19,999 count Hi Res mode.  The 87V I have is about 18 months old and even in Hi Res mode it is impossibly spot on.  In practice this provides an extra valuable digit when dealing with 12V systems, for example.  Another notable 87V feature is the AC low pass filter mode.

The 88V has two severe issues in my opinion: the lower manual voltage range by default and no RMS.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 11:37:25 am by J-R »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2020, 06:02:17 am »
I really like the 179 but I don’t understand what makes it better than the 87V.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2020, 10:54:36 am »
Another notable 87V feature is the LoZ AC mode.
The 87V does not have LoZ, but instead a low pass filter. The LoZ is the accessory SV225 from Fluke

https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/accessories/adapters/fluke-sv225

I really like the 179 but I don’t understand what makes it better than the 87V.
I personally think the 179 wins in its arrangement of input jacks (the current inputs are completely separated) and the slimmer form factor, which makes one hand operstion a lot easier. It is probably also a lot easier to train a new employee/user due to the reduced set of features, although that may not be very significant..

For personal use, the 179 is expensive when compared to other offers but, in a company or professional environment that is set on Flukes (just like Martin72 mentioned above), the cost savings of the 170 series when compared to the 87V are significant.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online J-R

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2020, 11:38:58 am »
Another notable 87V feature is the LoZ AC mode.
The 87V does not have LoZ, but instead a low pass filter. The LoZ is the accessory SV225 from Fluke
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/accessories/adapters/fluke-sv225
Oops, fixed.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2020, 12:40:42 pm »
Isn't 88V automotive meter?

If you look at that Tweeter post, funniest thing is complete lack of enthusiasm by users. Since July 9th, altogether 83 people chose to like or retweet...
It's more who cares about that question.....
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2020, 01:25:38 pm »
Isn't 88V automotive meter?

If you look at that Tweeter post, funniest thing is complete lack of enthusiasm by users. Since July 9th, altogether 83 people chose to like or retweet...
It's more who cares about that question.....
At the time I posted, I didn't realize how old the tweet was until I was informed by an email from Kiriakos.
I was hoping that no one else would notice.

 :-DD

Seriously, 25 something years ago, if asked which meters are best I would answer Fluke. In a nanosecond.  As kid 8060A was a dream, 87/3 was fantastic at the time, when I got Scopemeter 97 at work I was jumping around. They were the hot thing. Nobody had anything similar. Today, they are at the same place as 25 years ago. Scopemeters have some better specs, good safety (that is only reason why people buy it, and it's a good one). FLUKE lives of off corporate inertia and support structure, that is what corporations need. Their product are very solid and that's it.
There is no innovation, prices are high (because someone has to pay for support structure). If you are a company that needs paperwork and calibrations and certifications they are the choice. In those environments no change is good news. For the rest of us (small business, hobby) they are equaled or bettered by many, with products that are more innovative, or cheaper or both...
They are going the way of the IBM.  They are not in PC business anymore... They are still in the IT, but very different kind.


 
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2020, 04:17:38 pm »
They are going the way of the IBM.  They are not in PC business anymore... They are still in the IT, but very different kind.

Just because those two companies aren't competing for your business in the cutthroat buttons and lights hobby/semi-pro level market doesn't mean that they've retreated from the sector entirely, just the opposite.  IBM has their own processors, which I believe are the fastest in existence, although they aren't sold at Best Buy and you won't find a reviewer running GeekBench on them to compare them.  Fluke has the most accurate reference DMM ever made, as well as a slew of specialty products.  Both of these companies have very long product cycles and very long product lifetimes.  They don't make products-du-jour with previous iterations forgotten like yesterday's newspaper.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2020, 04:48:22 pm »
For personal use, the 179 is expensive when compared to other offers but, in a company or professional environment that is set on Flukes (just like Martin72 mentioned above), the cost savings of the 170 series when compared to the 87V are significant.

Yepp, fluke is standard in industrial uses, we got nearly all of our meters from them - And two gossen and one bench model from keysight..

We wanted a "cost-effective" multimeter from fluke for "daily use" and service.
Therefore, the 175/179 was choosen.
Personally, I like the fluke 115/117 more but they don´t have the 1000V...

« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 01:27:05 pm by Martin72 »
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #50 on: November 26, 2020, 05:13:25 pm »
They are going the way of the IBM.  They are not in PC business anymore... They are still in the IT, but very different kind.

Just because those two companies aren't competing for your business in the cutthroat buttons and lights hobby/semi-pro level market doesn't mean that they've retreated from the sector entirely, just the opposite.  IBM has their own processors, which I believe are the fastest in existence, although they aren't sold at Best Buy and you won't find a reviewer running GeekBench on them to compare them.  Fluke has the most accurate reference DMM ever made, as well as a slew of specialty products.  Both of these companies have very long product cycles and very long product lifetimes.  They don't make products-du-jour with previous iterations forgotten like yesterday's newspaper.

And that is exactly what I said. Anybody that buys stuff with it's own money (privately or small business) has nothing to buy from IBM. Banks and governments buy from IBM. They stopped selling anything for other markets..

 ^-^ You're funny.. You presumed I'm not professional because I don't use Fluke..

I do this for a living. It feeds my family. But I'm not Siemens, or Lockheed Martin. Equipment I buy comes from my lost profit... If I can buy 2 high end Brymens for price of entry level Fluke meter, my choice will be clear.
Same is with many small companies.
It's hoby users, makers, and such that will buy overpriced equipment with pedigree because they don't buy it rationally. They buy toys to treat themselves to snobbish  luxury items. Those are treats, not tools. In business, you need to make a business case that will prove you will make, not lose money if you buy expensive tool.

We are actually NOT TALKING about those Fluke specialist products, but specifically about low end products in their offering, mass market multimeters. They mainly live from large contracts from many, many industries where they sell well because they keep making same stuff for years. That makes it easy for customers to use same certifications, procedures, safety standards etc. That is benefit on those markets. I just hope they don't end up like Boeing, keeping certifications and model numbers and changing product slowly inside for larger profit margins.. Those market don't even buy it because it's best, but because they have established ecosystem and tons of paperwork already in place..

In the open market they are not competitive anymore. They run purely on fame, and good safety record, that in cases when needed is worth the money. But, most of us in the electronics business  don't even work in CAT III environment.. So yeah, Fluke is not what it used to be, and in time, like IBM, they will stop selling stuff that is not targeted at large industrial customers directly.

 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2020, 06:37:56 pm »
^-^ You're funny.. You presumed I'm not professional because I don't use Fluke..

No, I'm aware that you are professional.  No insult intended.

Quote
It's hoby users, makers, and such that will buy overpriced equipment with pedigree because they don't buy it rationally. They buy toys to treat themselves to snobbish  luxury items. Those are treats, not tools. In business, you need to make a business case that will prove you will make, not lose money if you buy expensive tool.

Assuming that someone that acts differently than you would is 'irrational' is, well, irrational.  As far as a 'business case', that is a complicated decision.  I have purchased a great deal of fairly expensive equipment for business and also fair amount of less-than-TOTL things, sometimes simply because entry level was all the budget allowed.  I've generally not regretted buying excellent equipment and tools (with a few notable exceptions) especially those that are durable and serviceable.  If I were a self employed electrician working on my own, the simple Fluke 117 (or 116) would be what I would likely carry around, along with a clamp meter like the 323.  The investment is small enough that I don't see any need to look for a better deal.  If I were working someplace, not on my own, I might look for another brand that is less likely to grow legs and run off to a pawn shop.  OTOH, you have a point in that I now have TOTL Fluke bench and handheld DMMs (8846A and 289) and I probably couldn't make a 'business case' for owning them as opposed to some cheaper units.  But when the lifetime of those units is measured in decades--and you are able to treat them well so they actually last for those decades-- it makes it easier to opt for quality.

Quote
We are actually NOT TALKING about those Fluke specialist products, but specifically about low end products in their offering, mass market multimeters. They mainly live from large contracts from many, many industries where they sell well because they keep making same stuff for years. That makes it easy for customers to use same certifications, procedures, safety standards etc. That is benefit on those markets. I just hope they don't end up like Boeing, keeping certifications and model numbers and changing product slowly inside for larger profit margins.. Those market don't even buy it because it's best, but because they have established ecosystem and tons of paperwork already in place..

Yes, the long product lifecycle is actually a benefit for buyers of their specialty products and higher end stuff.  The 8846A has an 8842A emulation mode and I'm sure there were plenty of customers who bought it to replace their worn out 8842A units just because it could be plugged right in to an existing process.  I'm not convinced that this applies to the so-called mass-market products, like the 114-117 series or even the ones above that.  Those products do change, they don't have the lifetime warranty and most users could easily replace them with just about anything.  Still, Fluke manages to sell a ton of them, including plenty to individuals and cost-conscious businesses.

Quote
In the open market they are not competitive anymore. They run purely on fame, and good safety record, that in cases when needed is worth the money. But, most of us in the electronics business  don't even work in CAT III environment.. So yeah, Fluke is not what it used to be, and in time, like IBM, they will stop selling stuff that is not targeted at large industrial customers directly.

Actually I think the point is that Fluke is what it used to be, but as you claim, others have caught up.  However, even if they lose the bang-for-buck comparison, I don't think that makes them uncompetitive.  There's nothing irrational about choosing a product with a decades-long reputation for quality, safety and durability over a newcomer that offers you an additional feature or digit.

A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2020, 06:57:35 pm »
There's nothing irrational about choosing a product with a decades-long reputation for quality, safety and durability over a newcomer that offers you an additional feature or digit.

There is if you know that they're equal quality but one of them costs more than twice as much for far less features and a lower safety rating.

Fluke's only advantage at the moment is that Brymen doesn't put "made in the USA" on the boxes and they're still relatively unknown out there in the "real" world.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 07:00:57 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2020, 07:13:07 pm »
I apologize for not being clear, no perception of insult was meant. It's all right, I don't perceive or mean this to be adversarial, I believe we are trying to argue same thing, just from a slightly different perspective.

Fluke is great(est) player in the arena, same as Keysight is in in own field.
I'm just saying that Fluke was all to all before, and that starts to change on some markets.
Good quality and good performance and safety is not reserved for them anymore. In the old days you could argue that you could get equally good meter from Gossen Metrawatt, but that came at the price that actually made Fluke inexpensive in comparison.

Nowadays you have Brymen, for instance, that has better price performance then Fluke at professional level quality and safety. So instead of buying two F87, I could by one BM869S, and one MTX3293 (Metrix) that has graphical color screen, math, user defined current clamp and shunt measurements, graphing, recording and many functions of the benchtop meter. I didn't even do it to save money (I didn't) but to gain so much more measurement capacity for the same money.

So all that doesn't make Fluke uncompetitive, but more of serving more focused and slightly narrower market. I don't even imply that is something bad, it makes sense, because market they are focusing on has nice profit margins, and it's healthy business so far. Like IBM, they probably chose that focus, because competing on open market is brutal.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #54 on: November 26, 2020, 07:46:14 pm »
Fluke used to be so far ahead of everything else that they had no serious competition. The digital multimeter is a mature product today though so it's inevitable that others have caught up. With even the Fluke meters being produced overseas these days there is less reason to pay the premium price I was willing to pay for something manufactured 30 minutes drive from where I live vs buying a lower cost import. I am still generally a fan of Fluke (and Tek) but neither stand out like they used to. The inevitable march of progress I suppose.
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2020, 07:54:37 pm »
There is if you know that they're equal quality but one of them costs more than twice as much for far less features and a lower safety rating.

Fluke's only advantage at the moment is that Brymen doesn't put "made in the USA" on the boxes and they're still relatively unknown out there in the "real" world.

You aren't going to know if they are 'equal' quality until 20 years from now.  And as for specs and ratings, Fluke's reputation includes being extremely conservative about their specs.  And I'm not sure which model you are referring to as 'costing twice as much', but if it is an 87V or 289, the limited lifetime warranty probably means something to at least some buyers.

Brymen is relatively unknown here because they have chosen not to market directly here.  The rebadged 869 is sold as the Greenlee DM-860 at an MSRP that is only slightly lower than the 87V.  You might get better discounts on it, but not half price.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline bayati

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2020, 08:03:58 pm »
I have 2*289, 1*87v and 2*179. I have a repair shop and mostly I repair laptops. 179 is my favorite and to go multimeter and dearly love it over the other multimeters I have. Long battery life, no glitch (never), very quick and responsive and super robust. also more handy than the others. Its continuity speed is its superhero power.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 08:06:37 pm by bayati »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #57 on: November 26, 2020, 08:19:39 pm »
You aren't going to know if they are 'equal' quality until 20 years from now.

If you've followed the "meter robustness" thread at all you have a pretty good idea that they are.

Joe's testing has destroyed many, many meters. Only Fluke and Brymen have gone the full distance.

And I'm not sure which model you are referring to as 'costing twice as much', but if it is an 87V or 289, the limited lifetime warranty probably means something to at least some buyers.

Take a look at the prices here: https://brymen.eu/product-category/multimetry/

They're prices with sales tax included and shipping is 10 Euros (IIRC).

I'm not sure how much real difference there is between "3 years" and "limited lifetime". If it hasn't failed after 3 years then it's probably not going to.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 08:21:11 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #58 on: November 26, 2020, 08:45:17 pm »
There is if you know that they're equal quality but one of them costs more than twice as much for far less features and a lower safety rating.

Fluke's only advantage at the moment is that Brymen doesn't put "made in the USA" on the boxes and they're still relatively unknown out there in the "real" world.

You aren't going to know if they are 'equal' quality until 20 years from now.  And as for specs and ratings, Fluke's reputation includes being extremely conservative about their specs.  And I'm not sure which model you are referring to as 'costing twice as much', but if it is an 87V or 289, the limited lifetime warranty probably means something to at least some buyers.

Brymen is relatively unknown here because they have chosen not to market directly here.  The rebadged 869 is sold as the Greenlee DM-860 at an MSRP that is only slightly lower than the 87V.  You might get better discounts on it, but not half price.

BM869S is much more capable instrument than 87V. It is practically F289 without graphing.

At the half/third of the price they have to last 10/7 years, not 20, for same economy of scale.

Fact is I have Fluke 73/III that is 20+ years old now. It cost me the same sum as BM869S, unadjusted for inflation...
While it still works perfectly, it is relegated to car duty. Everything about it is outdated, resolution, measurements, tiny screen, everything. It had to be replaced because it became irrelevant before dying out on me..
 
It doesn't matter that my MSOX3104T is great scope today, in 10 years, entry level scopes will have similar capabilities.. Or better. (much more memory etc...).

So I don't want stuff that will still work after 20 years after it became outdated.
 
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Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2020, 09:56:40 pm »
Brymen is a nice thing, the assembly inside looks professional, the accouracy is very good, the features also.

And they have an optical 87V clone :

https://www.welectron.com/Brymen-BM859s-Multimeter

 ;D

(which got better accuracy and bandwith as the 87V..for 184€)

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2020, 11:14:46 pm »
I'm not sure how much real difference there is between "3 years" and "limited lifetime". If it hasn't failed after 3 years then it's probably not going to.

Compare the lot of 2 EEVBloggers, one that purchased a Keysight U1253A (I can't find that thread right now...) in 2011 and another (me) with a same-vintage F289.  Both meters had failures.  The guy with the Keysight had the display fail, a common issue.  Not only was he out of warranty, he was out of support--no repair was offered at any price.  My F289 also had a common failure, 9 years in. The supercap.  Fluke repaired the meter and threw in a standard calibration (included with all repairs) and mailed it back.  I'd say the warranty made a difference.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2020, 11:40:41 am »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2020, 11:49:01 am »
Compare the lot of 2 EEVBloggers, one that purchased a Keysight U1253A (I can't find that thread right now...) in 2011 and another (me) with a same-vintage F289.  Both meters had failures.  The guy with the Keysight had the display fail, a common issue.  Not only was he out of warranty, he was out of support--no repair was offered at any price. 

Yep, OLED screens add a sort of built-in obsolescence to any gadget. The U1253A mostly sells to the "Ooooh, shiny!" demographic who don't mind daily battery changes and are used to throwing things away after four years.

Note that Fluke doesn't make anything with OLED.

(and neither does Brymen)
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 11:51:32 am by Fungus »
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2020, 01:20:33 pm »
We got some fluke87 (without roman suffix), bought in 1990....every year external calibrated without any problems so far. 8)

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2020, 02:08:19 pm »
I have a couple of Fluke meters: 179, 189 & 289. The 289 gets minus points for low contrast, slow startup and high battery consumption. Today I seldom use them.
I also have a couple of Keysight meters, but they are also seldom used, one is very slow, the others has a slightly complicated UI for the more advanced functions.
My Gossen energy is mostly used for power measurement, but I have also used it for current measurement (The fuse do not blow, all ranges use a 10A fuse).
I often use one of my Brymen meters and also the Hioki meter (DT4282) and lately I have got a Chauvin Arnoux, it is similar to Fluke 289 in some ways, but has much better display (and drains rechargeable batteries much faster) and like the Gossen has a common 10A fuse.

I forgot to include Kyoritsu KEW1062 (Basically same as OKOGAWA TY720), I have not really used it, the display is a bit low on contrast.

And yes I have many high end handheld meters (and also many cheap meters).
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 05:15:53 pm by HKJ »
 
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Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2020, 05:00:28 pm »
A little off topic, but the Bymen 829s looks interesting.  Except that (like the 86X series) it is kinda big and heavy compared to the 179, and except that (like the 179) it only has 4 digits, in other respects (including price) it looks to offer a lot of feature value within the Brymen line.  Curious to know why we don’t see more interest in the dBm feature?

https://brymen.eu/wp-content/uploads/biall/102083/102083.KARTA_EN..2015-07-08.1.pdf
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2020, 06:55:35 pm »
I have a couple of Fluke meters: 179, 189 & 289. The 289 gets minus points for low contrast, slow startup and high battery consumption. Today I seldom use them.

All valid points on the 289, although the startup time isn't what annoys me, it's the number of buttons you have to press to wade through the menus.  If you have high battery use, you may have a supercap issue.  Try taking the batteries out for a week and then see if the time/date needs resetting.  If so, either replace or remove the supercap, or if it is covered under warranty where you are at, send it to Fluke.  My batteries seem to be holding up since they repaired it, but I still don't leave it turned on like a bench meter and I haven't done any long-term logging.  I'm surprised you don't use the 189.

Quote
My Gossen energy is mostly used for power measurement, but I have also used it for current measurement (The fuse do not blow, all ranges use a 10A fuse).
I often use one of my Brymen meters and also the Hioki meter (DT4282) and lately I have got a Chauvin Arnoux, it is similar to Fluke 289 in some ways, but has much better display (and drains rechargeable batteries much faster) and like the Gossen has a common 10A fuse.

It is both surprising and annoying that here in the US there is almost no availability (certainly not competitively) of Gossen, Brymen and Metrix/CA.  TEquipment sells Gossen, but I the only buyers I know of are those that need them where they are specified in Airbus service procedures.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2020, 07:22:36 pm »
I have a couple of Fluke meters: 179, 189 & 289. The 289 gets minus points for low contrast, slow startup and high battery consumption. Today I seldom use them.

All valid points on the 289, although the startup time isn't what annoys me, it's the number of buttons you have to press to wade through the menus.  If you have high battery use, you may have a supercap issue.  Try taking the batteries out for a week and then see if the time/date needs resetting.  If so, either replace or remove the supercap, or if it is covered under warranty where you are at, send it to Fluke.  My batteries seem to be holding up since they repaired it, but I still don't leave it turned on like a bench meter and I haven't done any long-term logging.  I'm surprised you don't use the 189.

I used the 289 for a lot of logging and that is where the battery lifetime really started to annoy me. I have removed the supercap, but not checked the battery lifetime after that.
The 189 is one of my top meters, but as you can see from my list not the only one. If you ask me what meters are the best for regular use it would probably be Brymen (Not sure what model) and Fluke 189. They are easy to use, precise, long battery life and have all the required ranges. It is not that the other high end meters are bad, many of them can do stuff that is lacking from Brymen and 189, but it is seldom that these functions are needed and I like a easy to use meter that works.

Quote
My Gossen energy is mostly used for power measurement, but I have also used it for current measurement (The fuse do not blow, all ranges use a 10A fuse).
I often use one of my Brymen meters and also the Hioki meter (DT4282) and lately I have got a Chauvin Arnoux, it is similar to Fluke 289 in some ways, but has much better display (and drains rechargeable batteries much faster) and like the Gossen has a common 10A fuse.

It is both surprising and annoying that here in the US there is almost no availability (certainly not competitively) of Gossen, Brymen and Metrix/CA.  TEquipment sells Gossen, but I the only buyers I know of are those that need them where they are specified in Airbus service procedures.

It may be related to price, in EU Fluke is very expensive, not as much in the US. With Gossen and CA the price increase they get when sold in the US may be too much (A movement across the Atlantic will increase the price, either way). I do not agree with Joe, my meters do not get near ignition system or strong magnetic fields, but are mostly used on my bench where I have never killed a meter*.

* I have killed one meter due to high voltage, but that was way before CAT rating was invented and at the start of DMMs.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2020, 07:50:57 pm »
A little off topic, but the Bymen 829s looks interesting.

It looks like a BM869s with less counts. Very good meter for that price.
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2020, 08:07:53 pm »
A little off topic, but the Bymen 829s looks interesting.

It looks like a BM869s with less counts. Very good meter for that price.

That is one reason I do not put a model number on the Brymen meters I like, I have a couple of different meters and they are all good, but there are differences. My reviews includes some of the Brymen meters, but I miss the 257, that I also like, especially with the computer interface.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2020, 12:13:12 am »
Fluke 289....we got one....
I don´t like this....Booting time after power it on ...wtf?!
Fully overloaded with features, irritating menu structure - I just want to have a meter, power it on and measure something.



Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2020, 11:32:56 am »
After deciding not to use my Brymen BM857S as my primary bench meter, I found myself missing the Hellboy red holster.
I purchased a used 87V EX for its holster. The meter turned out to have faults but is still useful as a field DMM, tractor repairs mainly.
The holster turned out to have a problem also. Its material is much softer than the standard yellow holster and is rather brittle.
It has cracked where the tilt bail attaches allowing it to swing out too far.
Do other  87V EX owners notice the same problem with the holster?
I have asked Fluke to make available red replacement holsters or the 87 series.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2020, 11:34:59 am »
After deciding not to use my Brymen BM857S as my primary bench meter

Why?

(serious question)
 

Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2020, 11:49:36 am »
After deciding not to use my Brymen BM857S as my primary bench meter

Why?

(serious question)
When I go looking for computer main board rail shorts, I trace the voltage drop across sections of ground plain rather than the rail itself.
The 1µV resolution and high count make the BM857S well suited.
But Diode test beeps are indispensable to me.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2020, 12:20:31 pm »
Diode test beeps are indispensable to me.

OK.
 

Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2020, 12:47:25 pm »
I can accept that Diode test beeps are not important to all.
Has anyone objected to their DMM having Diode test beeps?
Brymen has added Diode test beeps to some models.
Earlier, would have been more useful to me.
There was plenty of time to copy the idea from Fluke.
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2020, 01:17:04 pm »
I can accept that Diode test beeps are not important to all.
Has anyone objected to their DMM having Diode test beeps?
Brymen has added Diode test beeps to some models.
Earlier, would have been more useful to me.
There was plenty of time to copy the idea from Fluke.
Well that is the point. ALL other manufacturers could have copied it in 20 years, but none bothered. It seems, that for most users, that is "Oh that's kinda nice, but not really important" feature...
I had 73/III for many years, and never really used Touch hold much, or found that it diode beep mode was something I couldn't live without it.
As I said, even with the beep, I always check the voltage on the screen anyways..
But I totally understand that is how you got used to work...
 
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Offline Arhigos

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #77 on: November 28, 2020, 01:45:45 pm »
After deciding not to use my Brymen BM857S as my primary bench meter, I found myself missing the Hellboy red holster.
I purchased a used 87V EX for its holster. The meter turned out to have faults but is still useful as a field DMM, tractor repairs mainly.
The holster turned out to have a problem also. Its material is much softer than the standard yellow holster and is rather brittle.
It has cracked where the tilt bail attaches allowing it to swing out too far.
Do other  87V EX owners notice the same problem with the holster?
I have asked Fluke to make available red replacement holsters or the 87 series.

But this is just regular 87V in red holster on your photo.

87vEX looks different
 

Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2020, 01:48:24 pm »


But this is just regular 87V in red holster on your photo.

87vEX looks different
Have you seen it available for purchase?
And yes, I put one of my 87V DMMs into the red holster, works fine and looks wonderful.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 01:28:57 am by xavier60 »
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2020, 06:21:03 pm »
Fluke 289....we got one....
I don´t like this....Booting time after power it on ...wtf?!
Fully overloaded with features, irritating menu structure - I just want to have a meter, power it on and measure something.

Boot time is 7 seconds, which shouldn't be intolerable.  Overloaded with features?  Yes, it is way overkill for most normal use, but hardly something to complain about.  Menu structure?  Yes, it takes a pretty astounding number of button presses to do certain things and it doesn't seem at all intuitive to me, so deduct some points for that.  But clearly it makes up for it with its light weight and compact size!  :-DD

Seriously, the only gripe I have is the lack of an internal thermocouple--even the Harbor Freight Cen-Tech models have that.  That and a Qi-powered lithium battery pack would pretty much bring it up to date.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #80 on: November 28, 2020, 06:31:02 pm »
Boot time is 7 seconds, which shouldn't be intolerable.  Overloaded with features?  Yes, it is way overkill for most normal use, but hardly something to complain about.  Menu structure?  Yes, it takes a pretty astounding number of button presses to do certain things and it doesn't seem at all intuitive to me, so deduct some points for that.  But clearly it makes up for it with its light weight and compact size!  :-DD

In daily use the boot time is a PITA and the menus are not as fast as a SELECT button, but way more flexible.

Seriously, the only gripe I have is the lack of an internal thermocouple--even the Harbor Freight Cen-Tech models have that.  That and a Qi-powered lithium battery pack would pretty much bring it up to date.

No DMM has an internal thermocouple, but all (as far as I know) has a internal temperature sensor. Some meters will automatic show internal temperature with no thermocouple connected, with other meters (Like Fluke) you need to short the inputs.
I do not like LiIon battery packs, they basically limits the lifetime of the meter, because it is hard to get replacement after a couple of years. I could work around that, but AA is easier.
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #81 on: November 28, 2020, 07:02:57 pm »
No DMM has an internal thermocouple, but all (as far as I know) has a internal temperature sensor. Some meters will automatic show internal temperature with no thermocouple connected, with other meters (Like Fluke) you need to short the inputs.
I do not like LiIon battery packs, they basically limits the lifetime of the meter, because it is hard to get replacement after a couple of years. I could work around that, but AA is easier.

Well there it is!  And pretty accurate, too.  I guess I should RTFM...

I doubt that lack of replacement battery packs would be an issue with Fluke, but the way it is constructed the Li-ion pack could be an option, or you could use AA NiMh.  It is the wireless charging that would be a great feature--and if it didn't cause too much interference, you could have infinite battery life and leave the meter turned on on the bench indefinitely.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #82 on: November 28, 2020, 07:40:59 pm »
Well there it is!  And pretty accurate, too.  I guess I should RTFM...

I doubt Fluke explains it in the manual.

You can find a couple of technical articles about multimeters on my website: https://lygte-info.dk/info/indexArticles%20UK.html
I have one about thermocouplers where I cover the basics (For some people it may be way beyond the basics).
 
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Offline Arhigos

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #83 on: November 29, 2020, 01:53:28 am »


But this is just regular 87V in red holster on your photo.

87vEX looks different
Have you seen it available for purchase?
And yes, I put one of my 87V DMMs into the red holster, works fine and looks wonderful.

Only on second-hand market like ebay. 87ex was replaced by 28EX long time ago.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #84 on: November 29, 2020, 02:42:47 am »
Boot time is 7 seconds, which shouldn't be intolerable.  Overloaded with features?  Yes, it is way overkill for most normal use, but hardly something to complain about.  Menu structure?  Yes, it takes a pretty astounding number of button presses to do certain things and it doesn't seem at all intuitive to me, so deduct some points for that.  But clearly it makes up for it with its light weight and compact size!  :-DD

Seriously, the only gripe I have is the lack of an internal thermocouple--even the Harbor Freight Cen-Tech models have that.  That and a Qi-powered lithium battery pack would pretty much bring it up to date.


7 seconds feels like an eternity if I'm just trying to turn it on and take a quick measurement. I suppose a 18650 based battery pack could be nice for some use cases, although a big advantage of 9V and AA batteries is that in a pinch you can buy the disposable ones anywhere and I usually get several months out of the 9V in my 87-III before I swap it out with a charged one.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #85 on: November 29, 2020, 04:55:40 pm »
Well there it is!  And pretty accurate, too.  I guess I should RTFM...

I doubt Fluke explains it in the manual.

You can find a couple of technical articles about multimeters on my website: https://lygte-info.dk/info/indexArticles%20UK.html
I have one about thermocouplers where I cover the basics (For some people it may be way beyond the basics).
^^^ Your site has been an amazing resource for a long time. Just an expression of appreciation! (I also really appreciate the battery/charger info.)

FYI, the word is "thermocouple", not "thermocoupler". (I've noticed this error a few times on the site, too.)
 

Offline bayati

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #86 on: December 17, 2020, 02:44:01 pm »
I repair more than 10 different devices every day. I can't work without that diode beep anymore. If you have to check more than 100 Mosfets everyday you see how addictive that can be.
 
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Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #87 on: December 17, 2020, 10:13:47 pm »
You check MOS-FETs with diode test  ???
Interesting...
 
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Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #88 on: December 17, 2020, 10:37:45 pm »
A quick body diode and a G-S breakdown test will find just about all faulty power MOSFETs  and IGBTs, keeping in mind that not all IGBTs have diodes inside.
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Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #89 on: December 17, 2020, 10:49:59 pm »
Hm, doing it so will only find obviously defective ones, but there are several ways why a FET could be faulty.
 
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Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #90 on: December 18, 2020, 02:54:38 am »
Yes, transistors with subtle damage can be missed, to totally fail later. Hopefully it happens on the bench while taking extra precautions.
This doesn't happen very often as inverter bridge transistors often fail in high/low pairs
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 02:57:55 am by xavier60 »
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #91 on: December 18, 2020, 07:53:39 am »
Those transistors that failed to short, will activate classic continuity beep. Beep, OK that one's gone. Same as any discrete semiconductor.
Also like xavier60 says, in bridge, rarely they don't blow in pairs, but if it isn't cost prohibitive, I would change them in pairs even if one of fets looks OK.
It probably spent some time outside safe specs  and who know if all is OK.

Like Martin says, I will disconnect/pull out transistor and check it with tester to see. Even that is not real life test, but at least it is in isolation and you can check basic parameters.  Once I had soft starter for motors with large monolithic 3 phase FET bridge, that I improvised a jig that was testing it with 10A to see if it works ok. Small transistor tester from Atlas was showing nonsense...

If I had to check 1000 diodes a day, I would definitely think about if some specialized diode testing would do me good.

As I said, you should use any advantage that helps you do your job better and/or faster, depending on what is important.
I usually don't have to do things superfast, but it has to be right first time.

If you're changing 400€ 3phase MOSFET bridge on high power inverter, you won't plug it in to check if it's going to work now. You will check and measure 3-4 times and double check everything before power on. Sawing few minutes is not going to be priority..

So, yeah, like I keep repeating, it all depends on what you do, and what your methods are..

For my work, I simply use different troubleshooting technique, that doesn't benefit from diode beep mode, and it is not optimised for 100 transistors per hour but for something else.  I understand other people have different priorities..
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #92 on: December 18, 2020, 10:00:56 am »
If I had to check 1000 diodes a day, I would definitely think about if some specialized diode testing would do me good.

This.

eg. Something that can automatically check the polarity both ways without swapping the leads around, etc.

 

Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #93 on: December 18, 2020, 10:23:29 am »
If I had to check 1000 diodes a day, I would definitely think about if some specialized diode testing would do me good.

This.

eg. Something that can automatically check the polarity both ways without swapping the leads around, etc.
The Fluke 18B+ sort of does that on its LED test range.
Open circuit, it outputs alternating 12v at 1.4Hz.
It stops alternating and gives a stable reading for drops between about 1 and 5 volts.
Although it keeps alternating for lower drops, the voltage can still be read.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 10:25:08 am by xavier60 »
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Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #94 on: December 18, 2020, 09:27:40 pm »
Quote
eg. Something that can automatically check the polarity both ways without swapping the leads around, etc.

And reverse breakdown voltage...

Quote
in bridge, rarely they don't blow in pairs, but if it isn't cost prohibitive, I would change them in pairs even if one of fets looks OK.

Same here, at work(Power Inverter, Converter) and also at home (Audio Amplifiers).
Always in pairs, except IGBT Packs.. ;D

Quote
If you're changing 400€ 3phase MOSFET bridge on high power inverter, you won't plug it in to check if it's going to work now. You will check and measure 3-4 times and double check everything before power on.

Little OT:

Our Inverter/Converters got several protection mechanism, like overtemp, overcurrent, short circuit, etc.
But also FHCC (fault high collector current), this means the current flowing through the rails for the IGBTs will be monitoring - If the current is going rapidly high after startup (IGBTs are shorted), the unit will switch off in milliseconds...
If this error comes up, you can use a multimeter with beeping.. ;)
After replacing the defective IGBT (or IGBT Pack), I do it like this:
Powering on the auxiliary voltage, so pulses will be send to the IGBT and then increasing the railvoltage ( external supplied) slowly, watching the input current and outputsignals (by scope).
Best way to test is to test in the enviroment.
Apart from this, there are no or few testers on the market, which could test IGBTs or even packs.

http://www.ib-billmann.de/skiitest_e.php

One of very few....
So I´m thinking about to design a tester for it, for the case you couldn´t test the IGBTs in their enviroment..

OT ends
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 10:19:35 pm by Martin72 »
 
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Offline bayati

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #95 on: December 19, 2020, 09:38:20 pm »
I usually work with high voltage/current FETs. A 2200w power supply like "p5 miner power supply" has about 6 mosfets in the primary side and 12 in the secondary. You have to use diode test + experience.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #96 on: December 19, 2020, 10:15:03 pm »
Diode testing on mos-fet could only find clearly shorted ones.
You can´t find open ones (G-S or D-S), you can´t find ones with decreased breakdown-voltage ( also a chinese all in one tester, which would be unlikely better then simply diode testing, will fool you in this case, "saying" the DUT is ok*...), you can´t find ones with reduced switching function.
You can´t find anything else except short circuit.
That´s a little bit too less for me.
Me, I would test a power fet at least with the circutry mentioned in it´s datasheet, then further testing what the maximum ratings concerns.

*)We got a bunch of BUZ84 FETs for switching supplies we build.
This supply got a wide input range from 250Vdc to 450Vdc.
While testing them, nearly every of the new assembled supplies "dies" at a voltage of appx. 200...300Vdc.
Even when the defective fets were replaced from new ones.
So we test the rest of the bunch and aha, instead having a breakdown voltage of 800Vdc, nearly all tested BUZ84 breaking down at a voltage of 200....300Vdc.
From this moment on, I don´t trust any lowcurrent/lowvoltage testdevice anymore.

Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2020, 10:26:51 pm »
Diode testing on mos-fet could only find clearly shorted ones.
You can´t find open ones (G-S or D-S), you can´t find ones with decreased breakdown-voltage ( also a chinese all in one tester, which would be unlikely better then simply diode testing, will fool you in this case, "saying" the DUT is ok*...), you can´t find ones with reduced switching function.
You can´t find anything else except short circuit.
That´s a little bit too less for me.
Me, I would test a power fet at least with the circutry mentioned in it´s datasheet, then further testing what the maximum ratings concerns.

*)We got a bunch of BUZ84 FETs for switching supplies we build.
This supply got a wide input range from 250Vdc to 450Vdc.
While testing them, nearly every of the new assembled supplies "dies" at a voltage of appx. 200...300Vdc.
Even when the defective fets were replaced from new ones.
So we test the rest of the bunch and aha, instead having a breakdown voltage of 800Vdc, nearly all tested BUZ84 breaking down at a voltage of 200....300Vdc.
From this moment on, I don´t trust any lowcurrent/lowvoltage testdevice anymore.
In that case, you are checking for possible fakes rather than for parts damaged while in service.
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Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2020, 10:39:56 pm »
No.
The BUZ 84 thing was a fake, for sure - But trust me, a FET could be damaged in several ways, not only getting shorted.
Bipolar transistors you could easy check with diode test - And find out defective ones not only shorted.
Testing FETs with it, it´s only 1 or 0.

Offline bayati

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2020, 07:35:57 pm »
Not practical if you repair a dozen power supplies a day. Diode test is not just about shorted FETs, you can see the drop voltage and also you can open the gate and based on your experience decide if it's ok or broken. In the past year we have repaired 2254 miners in our shop based on my CRM. At least half of them had power problems. Of course in our after repair test we find new broken parts but that's how you can quickly repair more than 10 power supplies a day. You don't have time to check them with a high voltage test circuit...
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #100 on: December 20, 2020, 10:26:03 pm »
Quote
You don't have time to check them with a high voltage test circuit...

When you got the circuit already, it don´t take much more time.
But I can understand your point of view, no doubt.



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