Author Topic: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.  (Read 6241 times)

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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #50 on: November 26, 2020, 05:13:25 pm »
They are going the way of the IBM.  They are not in PC business anymore... They are still in the IT, but very different kind.

Just because those two companies aren't competing for your business in the cutthroat buttons and lights hobby/semi-pro level market doesn't mean that they've retreated from the sector entirely, just the opposite.  IBM has their own processors, which I believe are the fastest in existence, although they aren't sold at Best Buy and you won't find a reviewer running GeekBench on them to compare them.  Fluke has the most accurate reference DMM ever made, as well as a slew of specialty products.  Both of these companies have very long product cycles and very long product lifetimes.  They don't make products-du-jour with previous iterations forgotten like yesterday's newspaper.

And that is exactly what I said. Anybody that buys stuff with it's own money (privately or small business) has nothing to buy from IBM. Banks and governments buy from IBM. They stopped selling anything for other markets..

 ^-^ You're funny.. You presumed I'm not professional because I don't use Fluke..

I do this for a living. It feeds my family. But I'm not Siemens, or Lockheed Martin. Equipment I buy comes from my lost profit... If I can buy 2 high end Brymens for price of entry level Fluke meter, my choice will be clear.
Same is with many small companies.
It's hoby users, makers, and such that will buy overpriced equipment with pedigree because they don't buy it rationally. They buy toys to treat themselves to snobbish  luxury items. Those are treats, not tools. In business, you need to make a business case that will prove you will make, not lose money if you buy expensive tool.

We are actually NOT TALKING about those Fluke specialist products, but specifically about low end products in their offering, mass market multimeters. They mainly live from large contracts from many, many industries where they sell well because they keep making same stuff for years. That makes it easy for customers to use same certifications, procedures, safety standards etc. That is benefit on those markets. I just hope they don't end up like Boeing, keeping certifications and model numbers and changing product slowly inside for larger profit margins.. Those market don't even buy it because it's best, but because they have established ecosystem and tons of paperwork already in place..

In the open market they are not competitive anymore. They run purely on fame, and good safety record, that in cases when needed is worth the money. But, most of us in the electronics business  don't even work in CAT III environment.. So yeah, Fluke is not what it used to be, and in time, like IBM, they will stop selling stuff that is not targeted at large industrial customers directly.

 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2020, 06:37:56 pm »
^-^ You're funny.. You presumed I'm not professional because I don't use Fluke..

No, I'm aware that you are professional.  No insult intended.

Quote
It's hoby users, makers, and such that will buy overpriced equipment with pedigree because they don't buy it rationally. They buy toys to treat themselves to snobbish  luxury items. Those are treats, not tools. In business, you need to make a business case that will prove you will make, not lose money if you buy expensive tool.

Assuming that someone that acts differently than you would is 'irrational' is, well, irrational.  As far as a 'business case', that is a complicated decision.  I have purchased a great deal of fairly expensive equipment for business and also fair amount of less-than-TOTL things, sometimes simply because entry level was all the budget allowed.  I've generally not regretted buying excellent equipment and tools (with a few notable exceptions) especially those that are durable and serviceable.  If I were a self employed electrician working on my own, the simple Fluke 117 (or 116) would be what I would likely carry around, along with a clamp meter like the 323.  The investment is small enough that I don't see any need to look for a better deal.  If I were working someplace, not on my own, I might look for another brand that is less likely to grow legs and run off to a pawn shop.  OTOH, you have a point in that I now have TOTL Fluke bench and handheld DMMs (8846A and 289) and I probably couldn't make a 'business case' for owning them as opposed to some cheaper units.  But when the lifetime of those units is measured in decades--and you are able to treat them well so they actually last for those decades-- it makes it easier to opt for quality.

Quote
We are actually NOT TALKING about those Fluke specialist products, but specifically about low end products in their offering, mass market multimeters. They mainly live from large contracts from many, many industries where they sell well because they keep making same stuff for years. That makes it easy for customers to use same certifications, procedures, safety standards etc. That is benefit on those markets. I just hope they don't end up like Boeing, keeping certifications and model numbers and changing product slowly inside for larger profit margins.. Those market don't even buy it because it's best, but because they have established ecosystem and tons of paperwork already in place..

Yes, the long product lifecycle is actually a benefit for buyers of their specialty products and higher end stuff.  The 8846A has an 8842A emulation mode and I'm sure there were plenty of customers who bought it to replace their worn out 8842A units just because it could be plugged right in to an existing process.  I'm not convinced that this applies to the so-called mass-market products, like the 114-117 series or even the ones above that.  Those products do change, they don't have the lifetime warranty and most users could easily replace them with just about anything.  Still, Fluke manages to sell a ton of them, including plenty to individuals and cost-conscious businesses.

Quote
In the open market they are not competitive anymore. They run purely on fame, and good safety record, that in cases when needed is worth the money. But, most of us in the electronics business  don't even work in CAT III environment.. So yeah, Fluke is not what it used to be, and in time, like IBM, they will stop selling stuff that is not targeted at large industrial customers directly.

Actually I think the point is that Fluke is what it used to be, but as you claim, others have caught up.  However, even if they lose the bang-for-buck comparison, I don't think that makes them uncompetitive.  There's nothing irrational about choosing a product with a decades-long reputation for quality, safety and durability over a newcomer that offers you an additional feature or digit.

A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2020, 06:57:35 pm »
There's nothing irrational about choosing a product with a decades-long reputation for quality, safety and durability over a newcomer that offers you an additional feature or digit.

There is if you know that they're equal quality but one of them costs more than twice as much for far less features and a lower safety rating.

Fluke's only advantage at the moment is that Brymen doesn't put "made in the USA" on the boxes and they're still relatively unknown out there in the "real" world.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 07:00:57 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2020, 07:13:07 pm »
I apologize for not being clear, no perception of insult was meant. It's all right, I don't perceive or mean this to be adversarial, I believe we are trying to argue same thing, just from a slightly different perspective.

Fluke is great(est) player in the arena, same as Keysight is in in own field.
I'm just saying that Fluke was all to all before, and that starts to change on some markets.
Good quality and good performance and safety is not reserved for them anymore. In the old days you could argue that you could get equally good meter from Gossen Metrawatt, but that came at the price that actually made Fluke inexpensive in comparison.

Nowadays you have Brymen, for instance, that has better price performance then Fluke at professional level quality and safety. So instead of buying two F87, I could by one BM869S, and one MTX3293 (Metrix) that has graphical color screen, math, user defined current clamp and shunt measurements, graphing, recording and many functions of the benchtop meter. I didn't even do it to save money (I didn't) but to gain so much more measurement capacity for the same money.

So all that doesn't make Fluke uncompetitive, but more of serving more focused and slightly narrower market. I don't even imply that is something bad, it makes sense, because market they are focusing on has nice profit margins, and it's healthy business so far. Like IBM, they probably chose that focus, because competing on open market is brutal.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #54 on: November 26, 2020, 07:46:14 pm »
Fluke used to be so far ahead of everything else that they had no serious competition. The digital multimeter is a mature product today though so it's inevitable that others have caught up. With even the Fluke meters being produced overseas these days there is less reason to pay the premium price I was willing to pay for something manufactured 30 minutes drive from where I live vs buying a lower cost import. I am still generally a fan of Fluke (and Tek) but neither stand out like they used to. The inevitable march of progress I suppose.
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2020, 07:54:37 pm »
There is if you know that they're equal quality but one of them costs more than twice as much for far less features and a lower safety rating.

Fluke's only advantage at the moment is that Brymen doesn't put "made in the USA" on the boxes and they're still relatively unknown out there in the "real" world.

You aren't going to know if they are 'equal' quality until 20 years from now.  And as for specs and ratings, Fluke's reputation includes being extremely conservative about their specs.  And I'm not sure which model you are referring to as 'costing twice as much', but if it is an 87V or 289, the limited lifetime warranty probably means something to at least some buyers.

Brymen is relatively unknown here because they have chosen not to market directly here.  The rebadged 869 is sold as the Greenlee DM-860 at an MSRP that is only slightly lower than the 87V.  You might get better discounts on it, but not half price.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline bayati

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2020, 08:03:58 pm »
I have 2*289, 1*87v and 2*179. I have a repair shop and mostly I repair laptops. 179 is my favorite and to go multimeter and dearly love it over the other multimeters I have. Long battery life, no glitch (never), very quick and responsive and super robust. also more handy than the others. Its continuity speed is its superhero power.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 08:06:37 pm by bayati »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #57 on: November 26, 2020, 08:19:39 pm »
You aren't going to know if they are 'equal' quality until 20 years from now.

If you've followed the "meter robustness" thread at all you have a pretty good idea that they are.

Joe's testing has destroyed many, many meters. Only Fluke and Brymen have gone the full distance.

And I'm not sure which model you are referring to as 'costing twice as much', but if it is an 87V or 289, the limited lifetime warranty probably means something to at least some buyers.

Take a look at the prices here: https://brymen.eu/product-category/multimetry/

They're prices with sales tax included and shipping is 10 Euros (IIRC).

I'm not sure how much real difference there is between "3 years" and "limited lifetime". If it hasn't failed after 3 years then it's probably not going to.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 08:21:11 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #58 on: November 26, 2020, 08:45:17 pm »
There is if you know that they're equal quality but one of them costs more than twice as much for far less features and a lower safety rating.

Fluke's only advantage at the moment is that Brymen doesn't put "made in the USA" on the boxes and they're still relatively unknown out there in the "real" world.

You aren't going to know if they are 'equal' quality until 20 years from now.  And as for specs and ratings, Fluke's reputation includes being extremely conservative about their specs.  And I'm not sure which model you are referring to as 'costing twice as much', but if it is an 87V or 289, the limited lifetime warranty probably means something to at least some buyers.

Brymen is relatively unknown here because they have chosen not to market directly here.  The rebadged 869 is sold as the Greenlee DM-860 at an MSRP that is only slightly lower than the 87V.  You might get better discounts on it, but not half price.

BM869S is much more capable instrument than 87V. It is practically F289 without graphing.

At the half/third of the price they have to last 10/7 years, not 20, for same economy of scale.

Fact is I have Fluke 73/III that is 20+ years old now. It cost me the same sum as BM869S, unadjusted for inflation...
While it still works perfectly, it is relegated to car duty. Everything about it is outdated, resolution, measurements, tiny screen, everything. It had to be replaced because it became irrelevant before dying out on me..
 
It doesn't matter that my MSOX3104T is great scope today, in 10 years, entry level scopes will have similar capabilities.. Or better. (much more memory etc...).

So I don't want stuff that will still work after 20 years after it became outdated.
 
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Offline Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2020, 09:56:40 pm »
Brymen is a nice thing, the assembly inside looks professional, the accouracy is very good, the features also.

And they have an optical 87V clone :

https://www.welectron.com/Brymen-BM859s-Multimeter

 ;D

(which got better accuracy and bandwith as the 87V..for 184€)

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2020, 11:14:46 pm »
I'm not sure how much real difference there is between "3 years" and "limited lifetime". If it hasn't failed after 3 years then it's probably not going to.

Compare the lot of 2 EEVBloggers, one that purchased a Keysight U1253A (I can't find that thread right now...) in 2011 and another (me) with a same-vintage F289.  Both meters had failures.  The guy with the Keysight had the display fail, a common issue.  Not only was he out of warranty, he was out of support--no repair was offered at any price.  My F289 also had a common failure, 9 years in. The supercap.  Fluke repaired the meter and threw in a standard calibration (included with all repairs) and mailed it back.  I'd say the warranty made a difference.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2020, 11:40:41 am »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2020, 11:49:01 am »
Compare the lot of 2 EEVBloggers, one that purchased a Keysight U1253A (I can't find that thread right now...) in 2011 and another (me) with a same-vintage F289.  Both meters had failures.  The guy with the Keysight had the display fail, a common issue.  Not only was he out of warranty, he was out of support--no repair was offered at any price. 

Yep, OLED screens add a sort of built-in obsolescence to any gadget. The U1253A mostly sells to the "Ooooh, shiny!" demographic who don't mind daily battery changes and are used to throwing things away after four years.

Note that Fluke doesn't make anything with OLED.

(and neither does Brymen)
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 11:51:32 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2020, 01:20:33 pm »
We got some fluke87 (without roman suffix), bought in 1990....every year external calibrated without any problems so far. 8)

Online HKJ

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2020, 02:08:19 pm »
I have a couple of Fluke meters: 179, 189 & 289. The 289 gets minus points for low contrast, slow startup and high battery consumption. Today I seldom use them.
I also have a couple of Keysight meters, but they are also seldom used, one is very slow, the others has a slightly complicated UI for the more advanced functions.
My Gossen energy is mostly used for power measurement, but I have also used it for current measurement (The fuse do not blow, all ranges use a 10A fuse).
I often use one of my Brymen meters and also the Hioki meter (DT4282) and lately I have got a Chauvin Arnoux, it is similar to Fluke 289 in some ways, but has much better display (and drains rechargeable batteries much faster) and like the Gossen has a common 10A fuse.

I forgot to include Kyoritsu KEW1062 (Basically same as OKOGAWA TY720), I have not really used it, the display is a bit low on contrast.

And yes I have many high end handheld meters (and also many cheap meters).
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 05:15:53 pm by HKJ »
 
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Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2020, 05:00:28 pm »
A little off topic, but the Bymen 829s looks interesting.  Except that (like the 86X series) it is kinda big and heavy compared to the 179, and except that (like the 179) it only has 4 digits, in other respects (including price) it looks to offer a lot of feature value within the Brymen line.  Curious to know why we don’t see more interest in the dBm feature?

https://brymen.eu/wp-content/uploads/biall/102083/102083.KARTA_EN..2015-07-08.1.pdf
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2020, 06:55:35 pm »
I have a couple of Fluke meters: 179, 189 & 289. The 289 gets minus points for low contrast, slow startup and high battery consumption. Today I seldom use them.

All valid points on the 289, although the startup time isn't what annoys me, it's the number of buttons you have to press to wade through the menus.  If you have high battery use, you may have a supercap issue.  Try taking the batteries out for a week and then see if the time/date needs resetting.  If so, either replace or remove the supercap, or if it is covered under warranty where you are at, send it to Fluke.  My batteries seem to be holding up since they repaired it, but I still don't leave it turned on like a bench meter and I haven't done any long-term logging.  I'm surprised you don't use the 189.

Quote
My Gossen energy is mostly used for power measurement, but I have also used it for current measurement (The fuse do not blow, all ranges use a 10A fuse).
I often use one of my Brymen meters and also the Hioki meter (DT4282) and lately I have got a Chauvin Arnoux, it is similar to Fluke 289 in some ways, but has much better display (and drains rechargeable batteries much faster) and like the Gossen has a common 10A fuse.

It is both surprising and annoying that here in the US there is almost no availability (certainly not competitively) of Gossen, Brymen and Metrix/CA.  TEquipment sells Gossen, but I the only buyers I know of are those that need them where they are specified in Airbus service procedures.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Online HKJ

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2020, 07:22:36 pm »
I have a couple of Fluke meters: 179, 189 & 289. The 289 gets minus points for low contrast, slow startup and high battery consumption. Today I seldom use them.

All valid points on the 289, although the startup time isn't what annoys me, it's the number of buttons you have to press to wade through the menus.  If you have high battery use, you may have a supercap issue.  Try taking the batteries out for a week and then see if the time/date needs resetting.  If so, either replace or remove the supercap, or if it is covered under warranty where you are at, send it to Fluke.  My batteries seem to be holding up since they repaired it, but I still don't leave it turned on like a bench meter and I haven't done any long-term logging.  I'm surprised you don't use the 189.

I used the 289 for a lot of logging and that is where the battery lifetime really started to annoy me. I have removed the supercap, but not checked the battery lifetime after that.
The 189 is one of my top meters, but as you can see from my list not the only one. If you ask me what meters are the best for regular use it would probably be Brymen (Not sure what model) and Fluke 189. They are easy to use, precise, long battery life and have all the required ranges. It is not that the other high end meters are bad, many of them can do stuff that is lacking from Brymen and 189, but it is seldom that these functions are needed and I like a easy to use meter that works.

Quote
My Gossen energy is mostly used for power measurement, but I have also used it for current measurement (The fuse do not blow, all ranges use a 10A fuse).
I often use one of my Brymen meters and also the Hioki meter (DT4282) and lately I have got a Chauvin Arnoux, it is similar to Fluke 289 in some ways, but has much better display (and drains rechargeable batteries much faster) and like the Gossen has a common 10A fuse.

It is both surprising and annoying that here in the US there is almost no availability (certainly not competitively) of Gossen, Brymen and Metrix/CA.  TEquipment sells Gossen, but I the only buyers I know of are those that need them where they are specified in Airbus service procedures.

It may be related to price, in EU Fluke is very expensive, not as much in the US. With Gossen and CA the price increase they get when sold in the US may be too much (A movement across the Atlantic will increase the price, either way). I do not agree with Joe, my meters do not get near ignition system or strong magnetic fields, but are mostly used on my bench where I have never killed a meter*.

* I have killed one meter due to high voltage, but that was way before CAT rating was invented and at the start of DMMs.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2020, 07:50:57 pm »
A little off topic, but the Bymen 829s looks interesting.

It looks like a BM869s with less counts. Very good meter for that price.
 

Online HKJ

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2020, 08:07:53 pm »
A little off topic, but the Bymen 829s looks interesting.

It looks like a BM869s with less counts. Very good meter for that price.

That is one reason I do not put a model number on the Brymen meters I like, I have a couple of different meters and they are all good, but there are differences. My reviews includes some of the Brymen meters, but I miss the 257, that I also like, especially with the computer interface.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2020, 12:13:12 am »
Fluke 289....we got one....
I don´t like this....Booting time after power it on ...wtf?!
Fully overloaded with features, irritating menu structure - I just want to have a meter, power it on and measure something.



Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2020, 11:32:56 am »
After deciding not to use my Brymen BM857S as my primary bench meter, I found myself missing the Hellboy red holster.
I purchased a used 87V EX for its holster. The meter turned out to have faults but is still useful as a field DMM, tractor repairs mainly.
The holster turned out to have a problem also. Its material is much softer than the standard yellow holster and is rather brittle.
It has cracked where the tilt bail attaches allowing it to swing out too far.
Do other  87V EX owners notice the same problem with the holster?
I have asked Fluke to make available red replacement holsters or the 87 series.
Hioki AS100D vom, HP 54645A dso, Fluke 87V dmm, AN8008 dmm, Agilent U8002A psu,  FY6600 function gen, New! Brymen BM857S-(With Battery)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2020, 11:34:59 am »
After deciding not to use my Brymen BM857S as my primary bench meter

Why?

(serious question)
 

Online xavier60

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2020, 11:49:36 am »
After deciding not to use my Brymen BM857S as my primary bench meter

Why?

(serious question)
When I go looking for computer main board rail shorts, I trace the voltage drop across sections of ground plain rather than the rail itself.
The 1µV resolution and high count make the BM857S well suited.
But Diode test beeps are indispensable to me.
Hioki AS100D vom, HP 54645A dso, Fluke 87V dmm, AN8008 dmm, Agilent U8002A psu,  FY6600 function gen, New! Brymen BM857S-(With Battery)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V or the 179 vote on Twitter.
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2020, 12:20:31 pm »
Diode test beeps are indispensable to me.

OK.
 


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