Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?

[zaoka]

I was wondering if Fluke is working on a new meter that would replace 87V... new design... ??

I have feeling that it would be based on Fluke 28, with different specs...

[PowerNet]

2017 and still 87v

[mzacharias]

Likely internal development continues; replacement for something as iconic as the 87 series will only be incremental. Remember, the 87IV was very poorly received; eventually morphed into the 89IV and gained some acceptance.

[Bud]

I like it beside the display being so dim which is close to being unusable

[PowerNet]

Hows the Fluke 28II compared to this ? i know its same meter but is it a good idea to have these two metres ?

Im thinking of buying another 87V, I like use of 9v batt and slimline of the 87V.

regards,

[retiredcaps]

Hows the Fluke 28II compared to this ? i know its same meter but is it a good idea to have these two metres ?

It is the same meter in terms of most of its functionality and specs, but pcb layout wise, the 28 II is clearly more cleanly laid out. If the same price, I would choose the Fluke 28 II myself.

[PowerNet]

Funny herein oz the 28 selling for around $800 yet the 87 is $1200

[Muxr]

I have the 27II, which is almost identical to 28II (and a few 87Vs).. 27II/28II is a tank. It's really kind of overkill unless you work outdoors or in industrial environment. 87V being smaller is much more pleasant to work with, on your day to day bench type work for instance.

[james_s]

Why do we need a successor? What is lacking in the 87V?

[Fungus]

Why do we need a successor? What is lacking in the 87V?

Easy: The ability to default to DC mode on current ranges.

(You could have asked the same thing about the 87, the 87II, the 87III, the 87IV but Fluke obviously thought of something to improve...)

[Jeroen3]

Get a 187/189 then. It has all current modes on the rotary.

[PowerNet]

Get a 187/189 then. It has all current modes on the rotary.

Its discontinued product according to Fluke.

[Jeroen3]

The 289 is literally a battery monster. It runs approximately 20 hours.

[BravoV]

The 289 is literally a battery monster. It runs approximately 20 hours.

Nope, you got a badly leaked internal capacitor that eats up the battery power.

[Jeroen3]

You say that like it is a common failure?

[BravoV]

You say that like it is a common failure?

For old model of 287 or 289, check this giant thread and read the details -> Fluke 189 with leaking surface mount supercap (also Fluke 287, Fluke 289)

But the latest 28X versions, check the last few posts from that thread, it looks like Fluke modified it and now they're using battery instead of super cap.

[PowerNet]

Looks like I'll be staying away from it then.

[X]

Funny herein oz the 28 selling for around $800 yet the 87 is $1200

The $1200 is for the kit, but even by itself, the Fluke 87-V by itself costs around $950-1000.

I got the Fluke 28-II entirely because of the price difference, and I got a more rugged meter in the lot.
The only thing I don't like about the Fluke 28-II is the diode tester that only goes up to 2.0V, but this is not a difficult thing to work around.

It would have been nice if they actually put the bloody manual (there is a "refer to manual" note on the back after all), and an actual magnetic hanger in it, as opposed to just a picture of the hanger.

[BravoV]

289 can remember AC/DC setup even after reboot. It also offers dual display, so you can use it to display AC and DC components separately.
It also has higher basic accuracy than 87V, 87V is rated 0.05%+1dgt, 289 is rated 0.025%+2dgt if my memory serves me correctly.

Imo, as I own both, 28x (287 or 289) is not the same league compared to 87V, as 28X will take a while to boot, not long though, like 2 or 3 seconds, while 87V is instantaneously ready to serve once you turned it on.

Also the 28X display, as its graphical LCD, the contrast and the "blackness" (or darkness  ) of the lcd segments just can not beat 87V.

Feature wise, if you don't need graphical chart, logging and etc, 28X is overkill, and also size wise, holding 28X feel like a big brick, compared to 87V that feels more compact, this photo should be clear enough to show what I mean.

[PowerNet]

Very nice comparasion.

[saturation]

The 28II was marketed as the 87V 'successor'

http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/Download/Asset/3821028_0000_ENG_A_W.PDF

Functionally identical except for the physical hardening, the 28 is bigger and heavier.

[tyreman1]

I have both meters 87 V and 28 II.
Both good meters but I bet go with 28 II better bet ..MAYBE depends
87 V bit more accurate but 28 II  IP67  rated.......... its a tough call
Battery change out way better with 87 V than 28 II
Easier door/battery removal
Also 28 II much bigger, thicker in hand
Lot like 287 pic'd above.

[Jeroen3]

When I'm working on the bench the 289 meter is the one I choose. The screen is larger so it will show min-max-avg + time, it can do Hz and V together. It does AC+DC, while still also showing only AC/DC.
I've used it a lot, but a trend feature I have not found? Is that hidden somewhere?

When I'm not at my bench, nothing beats the 87.

Lol, the 28 is the same except for waterproofing and fuse access. Rather strange choice to lower the model number?

[stj]

some modern technology would be nice,
given the fact that the chinese are producing small OLED and TFT colour displays for peanuts now, there is no reason not to use them on a meter.

keysite does offer OLED on a few models - but it really needs a much wider adoption.
maybe chinese company's like UNI-T should start the ball rolling to force the hand of the more expensive manufacturers.

as someone who often uses a meter while laying on the floor behind or under something, i really am sick of using monochrome lcd displays!
i almost wish i still had an oldschool meter with a red led display!!!

[Jeroen3]

Other display types use a lot more power. They will have to add lithium batteries and charger ports. Wireless charging for the CAT ratings.

[BravoV]

Other than proven LCD technology, even though still quite limiting, the other factor is temperature range which the DMM is designed to work at.

If I'm not mistaken, I read is somewhere, the LCD at 28X is designed to work at extreme temperature either cold and warm.

[BMack]

I personally don't want a OLED or TFT display, I want a dual display and I want it in the same size or smaller...or the same specs and robustness but smaller(with the same size screen).

[Muxr]

some modern technology would be nice,
given the fact that the chinese are producing small OLED and TFT colour displays for peanuts now, there is no reason not to use them on a meter.

keysite does offer OLED on a few models - but it really needs a much wider adoption.
maybe chinese company's like UNI-T should start the ball rolling to force the hand of the more expensive manufacturers.

as someone who often uses a meter while laying on the floor behind or under something, i really am sick of using monochrome lcd displays!
i almost wish i still had an oldschool meter with a red led display!!!

Personally I prefer LCD. 87V battery power consumption is ridiculously low as a result. OLED also suffers from burn in issues.

One of my favourite things about 87V is the fact that it's always ready to go.. I can seemingly go years without replacing batteries on it.

[james_s]

I agree, LCD is ideal for a meter, it's low power, easy to read, reliable, what possible benefit is there to color? Why use a power hungry and unreliable OLED to display numbers? I can think of no benefit of moving away from a simple backlit LCD.

[Testing123]

I've not used OLED, but have heard that they can be more difficult to read (see, view, etc.) outside in sunlight as opposed to LCD.

[stj]

that may be true, but a lot of us dont see much sunlight - or even much light at all while working!

[Fungus]

I agree, LCD is ideal for a meter, it's low power, easy to read, reliable, what possible benefit is there to color? Why use a power hungry and unreliable OLED to display numbers?

Because they're pretty!

[mzacharias]

Hows the Fluke 28II compared to this ? i know its same meter but is it a good idea to have these two metres ?

It is the same meter in terms of most of its functionality and specs, but pcb layout wise, the 28 II is clearly more cleanly laid out. If the same price, I would choose the Fluke 28 II myself.

I had a 28II for a while. On mine at least - the continuity beeper was barely audible compared to the 87V. Probably because of the IP67 case.

[stj]

I agree, LCD is ideal for a meter, it's low power, easy to read, reliable, what possible benefit is there to color? Why use a power hungry and unreliable OLED to display numbers?

Because they're pretty!

they give better contrast and because most are a matrix instead of a bunch of segments and symbols, the size of the numbers can be changed for readability - if it's written into the firmware of course.

[james_s]

If you want pretty, buy a flashy bling bling Chinese meter. Fluke is a serious tool, a meter for people who value function over form. I frequently use mine out in direct sunlight where TFT and even OLED would be useless. I also use it in dark spaces, which the backlight enables. 

I love my 87-III, the only thing I wish it had was a diode test beep like my old 73 had. If they redesigned it around some stupid flashy new display I would not buy it. The reflective LCD is ideal for the task at hand, it provides a very clear display that is readable under a very wide range of conditions. Zero complaints about the display.

[slurry]

I'm happy with my two 289's, i use it quite a lot and does not really agree with the battery consumption being a problem, but my specimen may be a good one and i use them for a fairly short time everytime i use them.

Being a bit of a brick, it demands some space in my servicebag, but, nowadays i dont have to haul a benchtop multimeter with me to get the precision and resolution and dB over 600 that i need, it's all there in the 289 
Also i'm satisfied with the flukeview forms work 

At a quick comparison with my two Agilent/Keysight meters... they suck and is left on the shelf for most of the time.

[MiroS]

We have now 2017 therefore I thing 87V is missing several features:
- It seems not a robust metter , prtection circuit seems to be outdated, even comparing to 101 -> see Joe tests
- Lacking good connectivity, really attaching separate devices to have BT ... this is almost free those days for other 'free/cheap' metters
- Frequency counter - do I really need a cope to check if quartz is doing well, no really , even  some of 10usd metter are doing this better, almost all in now  populating microcontroller
- Simple serial monitor  - not a rich functionalty , simple serial montor, why I need to have a scope for a basic check ?
- Look at component tester for 10usd , it is doing better for several measurements/tests than 87v, why it is so ...
- 5 counts would be nice addition
- Dual display (sic!) amd  better display , some of cheap metters offer are doing this better than 87V
etc. etc. etc.
I think it is  time to release a new modern universal metter, good  V/I/R/C may be not enaught thse days, see  Brymen.

[Muxr]

We have now 2017 therefore I thing 87V is missing several features:
- It seems not a robust metter , prtection circuit seems to be outdated, even comparing to 101 -> see Joe tests
- Lacking good connectivity, really attaching separate devices to have BT ... this is almost free those days for other 'free/cheap' metters
- Frequency counter - do I really need a cope to check if quartz is doing well, no really , even  some of 10usd metter are doing this better, almost all in now  populating microcontroller
- Simple serial monitor  - not a rich functionalty , simple serial montor, why I need to have a scope for a basic check ?
- Look at component tester for 10usd , it is doing better for several measurements/tests than 87v, why it is so ...
- 5 counts would be nice addition
- Dual display (sic!) amd  better display , some of cheap metters offer are doing this better than 87V
etc. etc. etc.
I think it is  time to release a new modern universal metter, good  V/I/R/C may be not enaught thse days, see  Brymen.

Good list, but it's missing the point of what 87V is. As james_s said 87V is not supposed to be a flashy meter.. it's supposed to be no frills streamlined and dependable.

Maybe Fluke needs to make something between 87V and 289 that has the features you mentioned. My only complaint with 87V is that it's too expensive. It really shouldn't cost more than $250-$300 in my opinion.

Like I don't know what happened but the price has gone up by like $100-$200 in the last two years:



Other than that I think it implements every feature perfectly well for a general purpose meter.

[james_s]

Also the 87 does have a frequency counter, at least my series III does. A 4 digit counter is only marginally useful but it is handy. Most of the other proposed features are just frills and gimmicks, there are already plenty of meters with that stuff on the market. The beauty of the Fluke 87 is that it's a tough industrial meter, made in the USA that does all the basic stuff and does it very well. That's been Fluke's philosophy for decades and it has worked well for them. Even some 30 years ago the ads were comparing dependable and safe Fluke meters to cheaper meters loaded with bells & whistles of dubious usefulness.

[Electro Detective]

For me the 87V paired up with my original 87-1 are both no frills 'get in and get out' work meters 

The 189 takes it to the next level with straight up no brainer controls

The 289 takes it to ANY level as long as you spend some 'new toy' time playing with the menu system (weird at first but not rocket science)
and don't mind a few seconds of boot up time which apparently is a deal breaker for some ?!!     

Both 189 and 289 should be opened ocassionally to check and clean the infernal internal superCrapacitor, in case of leakage or beard stubble 

(Don't hold your breath waiting for Fluke to do anything about it if the meter is second hand or the receipt has gone MIA)    

I don't favor the 28-11 because of lame diode function and something else I can't remember   


EDIT: here is the post re 28-11 issues 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-28-ii-battery-life/?all

[james_s]

What does the supercap do in those? Supercaps are notoriously unreliable, they are a very common failure item in Davis weather stations.

[Electro Detective]

What does the supercap do in those? Supercaps are notoriously unreliable, they are a very common failure item in Davis weather stations.

These infernal pieces of capacitor HELL, get a LOT of cash strapped users (loyal CUSTOMERS) ticked off with apathetic Fluke about it   

Read all about it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-189-with-leaking-surface-mount-coin-cell/?all

[james_s]

It'd be nice if they just used a standard CR2032 coin cell instead, or dispense with the RTC entirely. I've never looked at my multimeter and wished it had a clock.

[Electro Detective]

It'd be nice if they just used a standard CR2032 coin cell instead, or dispense with the RTC entirely. I've never looked at my multimeter and wished it had a clock.

The clock biz is part of the logging function.

Then again, you just reset the dead crapacitor charged clock when putting in a fresh set of batteries which keep the RTC alive anyway



It's a DUMBASS design flaw come oversight and Fluke should drop the BS corporate excuses

and FIX ALL OF THEM FOR FREE  >>> UNCONDITIONALLY ! <<<



Someone had to say it, right ? 

[Fungus]

What does the supercap do in those? Supercaps are notoriously unreliable, they are a very common failure item in Davis weather stations.

Keeping RTC running when main battery is being changed.

Why does it need RTC? Data logging? Surely the device that's recording the values can have the clock.

A Bluetooth chip inside the meter would enable all sorts of things. Data logging, display of output on mobile phone (for all those people who think they need OLED), etc.

If Fluke wants to sell everybody a new meter then a simple, open, Bluetooth interface would be the way to go. Nothing fancy, just transmit the value on screen and type of reading (volts, ohms...) to whoever wants to listen.

Why use a power hungry and unreliable OLED to display numbers?

Because they're pretty!

they give better contrast

I'm sure I can find many lighting conditions where they give worse contrast.

and because most are a matrix instead of a bunch of segments and symbols, the size of the numbers can be changed for readability - if it's written into the firmware of course.

A good e-ink display would be better then OLED, and readable in bright light.

[Fungus]

My U1461A refreshes 20 times per second. Good luck finding an eink to do that.

Most e-ink can do that these days, especially for black/white images (ie. no greyscale).

https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=e-ink+refresh+speed

nb. I'm not advocating e-ink for the Fluke 87 I'm just saying it would make more sense than OLED. I'm happy with LCD.

[timb]

A Sharp Memory LCD would be the way to go. Even less current consumption than an equivalent sized GLCD, high update rate and higher DPI. They're also sunlight visible, like eInk.

[Muxr]

A Sharp Memory LCD would be the way to go. Even less current consumption than an equivalent sized GLCD, high update rate and higher DPI. They're also sunlight visible, like eInk.

Those are really nice, but they seem expensive. I know just getting one is really pricey, not sure what the price would be for a large bulk order.

[james_s]

I just don't see the problem with the existing display, I have zero complaints about mine. Why reinvent the wheel? As the old saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." If you want flashy bells & whistles there are plenty of other brands out there that will cater to that.

[Electro Detective]

An eye candy display    will quickly lose its appeal if the 'new model' meter's performance and durability heads south in the middle of a hands full job   

Since when did serious techs and EEs gas about equipment looks and curves anyway?   

(I reserve that for the ladies)

[X]

I don't favor the 28-11 because of lame diode function and something else I can't remember   

This works OK for most diodes though, and probably tiny red LEDs. You can apply a current source (9V battery plus 1k resistor in series will do) to the LED and measure the voltage across it. Not very convenient, but nothing worth dismissing the meter over entirely, unless the diode test was ridiculous, eg. <1.5V max.
Although given that there is three AA batteries, they can surely make the diode test at least 2.5V if not 3V, taking into account the voltage of partially drained (but usable) cells. Perhaps even a very tiny boost converter can be used to bump it up to 5V if need be.

Since when did serious techs and EEs gas about equipment looks and curves anyway?

Since the Useless Good Looks Apple corporation rocked up and made the average EE/tech less serioius, to the point where other companies wanted to copy their "innovation" out of jealousy?

[james_s]

One feature that would be great to have is a boost converter that allowed testing zener diodes up to say 40V. Even higher would be great but that could present safety issues.

[stj]

to hell with safety, safety is the responsibility of the user, not the equipment.

my home-built zener tester ramps to 300v 

[james_s]

You're free to have that attitude when building your own equipment at home, as do I frequently, but when someone buys a meter from Fluke they expect it to be safe. That's one of the main reasons people buy an expensive meter like that.

[X]

One feature that would be great to have is a boost converter that allowed testing zener diodes up to say 40V. Even higher would be great but that could present safety issues.

The problem is intrinsic safety. Even the ordinary 28-II states that it is suitable for methane environments.
It wouldn't surprise me if the move to AA batteries and lowering of the diode test voltage had something to do with intrinsic safety. Even at low voltages, there is a chance of an arc which could detonate an explosive environment.

[zaoka]

I had a 28II for a while. On mine at least - the continuity beeper was barely audible compared to the 87V. Probably because of the IP67 case.

I think thats fixed in new edition of the meter, they had some upgrade and I think they upgraded beeper.

[oldway]

A point that is never raised but that seems important to me: the high value of these multimeters on the second-hand market.
This creates the risk of theft

I already had a 87 that was stolen on site
I have a 87V, I "love" it, the best multimeter in my opinion, but I use an old 75 on site to avoid the risk of theft....

So if Fluke need to change something at 87V, it's the price that's really excessive. 

[BravoV]

So if Fluke need to change something at 87V, it's the price that's really excessive. 

Fluke is milking the 87V design & model, as even with crazy price, they're still selling like hot cakes.   

Dunno, may be 87V model is their best selling DMM in their history ? As others models and also the supposed to be the 87V successors with various new models/variants, they are still pale in sales compared to it.

Purely subjective of course, the 87V does have sort of magic appeal & attraction when its held in palm, is it just me ? 

[Electro Detective]

magic appeal & attraction when its held in palm,
inspired by maccas ? 

[james_s]

If the other models pale in sales then that's a pretty good indicator why they still sell the 87. Why would anyone in their right mind replace one of their best selling products? Ford tried that with the Taurus and it was a disaster.

If theft is a problem, make sure you've recorded the serial number of yours.

[mmagin]

One feature that would be great to have is a boost converter that allowed testing zener diodes up to say 40V. Even higher would be great but that could present safety issues.

I wouldn't want that to be the default behavior, even safety concerns aside, there are places I might blithely use diode test around semiconductors only rated for 8 or 10 volts between their terminals.

[jpb]

I've just bought my first 87V (£190 new other off ebay) and am impressed by the accuracy so far - I checked it relative to my 6.5 digit Keithley 2000 and it agreed to +-1 in the last digit (of the 87V) even on the extended range (measuring voltages between a few 10s of mV and 32V).
I measured a Silver Mica 1800pF capacitor which measures 1813pF on my DE5000 after calibration and using delta mode with long leads the 87V was measuring between 1.79 and 1.80 nF.

These aren't terribly scientific tests (I'm just looking around my chaotic lab to find things to measure to check the meter is ok) but it is looking good so far.

The nice thing about the 87V being around a long time is that there are plenty on e-bay at reasonable prices in a new state.

[Fungus]

One feature that would be great to have is a boost converter that allowed testing zener diodes up to say 40V. Even higher would be great but that could present safety issues.

I wouldn't want that to be the default behavior, even safety concerns aside, there are places I might blithely use diode test around semiconductors only rated for 8 or 10 volts between their terminals.

Yeah, I would want that to only be available after a long and complicated sequence of button presses. If at all.

[jaja_622]

2018 and still Fluke 87-V  , i was wondering if in this subjects are there usually leaks or infos about future products like there are for example in the smartphone bussiness. I'm in the market for a new DMM and the fluke 87-V is in the top of my list right now, but it draws to my attention that there are features missing form the 87-V that the (lower end)117 has, for example the loZ mode or the non contact voltage detection, those two and maybe compatibility with fluke connect app are the the features that in my opinion reveals the age of the design.
So is there some info about a 87-v successor anytime soon? do you think that is it worth to pay ~400 USD for a new fluke 87-V now?
PD: I'm tired of cheappy meters, i already had two which failed.

[Mr. Scram]

2018 and still Fluke 87-V  , i was wondering if in this subjects are there usually leaks or infos about future products like there are for example in the smartphone bussiness. I'm in the market for a new DMM and the fluke 87-V is in the top of my list right now, but it draws to my attention that there are features missing form the 87-V that the (lower end)117 has, for example the loZ mode or the non contact voltage detection, those two and maybe compatibility with fluke connect app are the the features that in my opinion reveals the age of the design.
So is there some info about a 87-v successor anytime soon? do you think that is it worth to pay ~400 USD for a new fluke 87-V now?
PD: I'm tired of cheappy meters, i already had two which failed.

Don't buy an 87V to have the latest and greatest. It's likely to last many years, decades even, so it will inevitably be outdated at some point. Buy it because it's the meter you want or need now. It's a very nice no-nonsense meter and that's not going to change, no matter how fancy new models might be. And I really wouldn't count on that too much anyway, because the perfect meter would inevitably come with a huge Fluke premium.

[Fungus]

It's still selling well, it's got the reputation, there's no major problems, why would they change it?

[Electro Detective]

If they do produce a Fluke 87-6     they may include the Low Z feature, perhaps an AC proximity sensor alert,
and maybe some SIMPLE by-passable wireless output thingy for computers and phones to receive data.
Otherwise why change a corporate bread winner? 87V is good for another 10 years or more unless they cheap out the quality to line apathetic shareholders and CEO pockets   

The 187 and 189 (discontinued) were sort of the successor to the Fluke 87V for years, easy to use like the 87, and great specs, especially on AC. 

The current bells n whistles 289 is great too, but the user needs to be familiar with the on-board menus, and wait for it to boot up if needing to use it asap.
It's also bulky but worth lugging around for all the features it sports 

FWIW if you need Low Z on an 87V just get the Fluke adapter for it,
or better still buy a used Fluke 114 or 117 that includes that feature,

with the benefit that having two decent meters on a job is way better than just relying on one
especially after a textbook fatal drop on a concrete floor      

[jaja_622]

I understand that there really isn't much that the 87-V is missing, aside from the features I already mentioned, that is why is on the top of my preference list... I am an electronics engineer and have a Minipa et2033b multimeter that served me well for years but now I'm getting into mains work and I really don't trust that meter for that.
A few days ago my my suspicious proved right, I accidentally forgot the meter in Amps range and measured a high voltage source (I know.. stupid!! but errors happen ) the breaker tripped and nothing really especial happened, aside from the fact that the  15 amp glass fuse inside the minipa was in mint condition after the short but the banana plug was wasted, needless to say that I no longer want to touch mains voltage with that meter.
The 117 is not on the top of my list because I need the electronics functions (uA, mA, temp too would be nice).
As a side note, what do you think about buying the 87-V from USA Ebay? I do most of my online shopping from amazon, but noticed that they go a good deal cheaper on Ebay, anything to take into account aside from the fact that I'll probably lose the warranty and taking a good look at the seller references? Why is it so much cheaper on Ebay(~400USD vs 479 USD for the e2 kit)?
Thanks for all the help guys!

[Fungus]

If they do produce a Fluke 87-6     they may include the Low Z feature, perhaps an AC proximity sensor alert

a) It would be called the 87 VI 
b) They wouldn't add new features in an existing product line, they'd create an exciting new line (and charge accordingly).

I understand that there really isn't much that the 87-V is missing

Ability to default to DC in current mode?

[Jeroen3]

I recently worked with an 87, and an 87V and notices the bargraph is much faster on the 87 than the 87V.
When adjusting controllers for stability the 87 wins.

[Fungus]

I recently worked with an 87, and an 87V and notices the bargraph is much faster on the 87 than the 87V.
When adjusting controllers for stability the 87 wins.

The 87V updates 40x per second, that's pretty fast. 

Maybe it's affected by hires mode or something, are you sure they're equivalent?

[Mr. Scram]

The obvious improvements to be made to the 87V would be changing the batteries to AA or AAA. Of course, having the fuses accessible without taking it apart would be an upgrade too. The meter is simple and quick in every day use, but having to tear the entire device down to get to a FRU is a pain. It's a pain in the actual field too, as I can't see anyone doing it on a windy platform or anything. Obviously, if you insist on doing it that way, you'll need to use metal inserts, which are currently missing too.

[Mr. Scram]

The 87V updates 40x per second, that's pretty fast. 

Maybe it's affected by hires mode or something, are you sure they're equivalent?

The numbers on paper aren't always reflected by the actual behaviour. It might very well update 40 seconds a minute, but if the bar blurs out at that speed leaving you guessing, it might not be as effective as it seems.

[Fungus]

The numbers on paper aren't always reflected by the actual behaviour. It might very well update 40 seconds a minute, but if the bar blurs out at that speed leaving you guessing, it might not be as effective as it seems.

Maybe the difference is in the LCD.

The obvious improvements to be made to the 87V would be changing the batteries to AA or AAA.

AA would make it much bigger, AAA wouldn't last as long if they need to be boosted to 9V internally.

Edit: Change from AAA to AA.

Of course, having the fuses accessible without taking it apart would be an upgrade too.  I can't see anyone doing it on a windy platform or anything.

Anybody who's blowing Fluke 87V fuses on a windy platform should probably be carrying a current clamp accessory instead of a spare set of fuses.

[Mr. Scram]

Maybe the difference is in the LCD.

AAA would make it much bigger, AAA wouldn't last as long if they need to be boosted to 9V internally.

Anybody who's blowing Fluke 87V fuses on a windy platform should probably be carrying a current clamp accessory instead of a spare set of fuses.

Why would going with AAA make it much larger? Even without changing the current design much, you could already accommodate 2 x AAA. A new model would involve a complete review of the design and redesign where needed, so fitting them shouldn't be a problem.

The capacity won't be an issue either. A single AAA alkaline battery has a capacity of 860–1200 mAh. A 9 V alkaline has about 550 mAh. You could have the lossiest boost converter in the world and still come out on top. Obviously, you wouldn't use that converter a lot, as most things could be powered from a lower voltage without issue.

Perhaps the best argument is that the competition manages to use both AAA batteries and fit accessible fuses. Brymen does this in the much smaller and cheaper BM235 and Keysight does the same in the Agilent U1231A, even fitting four batteries for a capacity of almost 10 times that of a single 9 V battery. It shouldn't be much of a challenge to fit both in an 87V successor and it would make maintenance as easy and simple as actually using the meter is.

[Fungus]

AAA would make it much bigger, AAA wouldn't last as long if they need to be boosted to 9V internally.

Why would going with AAA make it much larger?

Typo: I meant AA

I guess 2xAA and booster might give approximately the same size/lifetime as a 9V, but... would it sell more meters? I doubt it.

(and that's the only question a bean-counter will ever ask)

I think Fluke fuses are expensive and difficult to replace on purpose - to make blowing them as painful as possible for you. Maybe you'll learn something from the experience. 

(Me? I'd keep it that way)

[jaja_622]

I've just pulled the trigger for the 87-v I liked more the easy of use vs the 289, the battery life and the slower boot time in my opinion would be cumbersome in everyday use, also the size if you want to carry it everyday. That's not to say that it isn't a good meter, just not what i would prefer using everyday if you only need non-logging functions.
I have nothing against the use of 9V as a power source, why would you prefer AA or AAA? what are the disadvantages of 9V? the fuse door compartment would be a nice addition, but in my opinion it is not something that you change very often... in fact in my ~9 years of experience between grad school and professional life I only manage to do a short with a meter once.

[Mr. Scram]

AAA would make it much bigger, AAA wouldn't last as long if they need to be boosted to 9V internally.

Why would going with AAA make it much larger?

Typo: I meant AA

Ah, that makes more sense Considering a single AA battery has a capacity of 1800–2600 mAh versus 860–1200 mAh for AAA, it's basically an engineering choice. You could use two instead of four. Dave's new meter does use four AA batteries, so it's not completely infeasible. It's obviously quite thick, but Dave insisted on making it no bigger than the footprint of a BM235. Maybe a less compact meter could be less thick and still hold four AAA batteries.

It does seem Fluke is following the same logic, as I think all of the more modern Flukes have done away with the 9 V battery. The compact Fluke 101 uses two AAA and the 17B+ uses two AA batteries.

[Fungus]

why would you prefer AA or AAA? what are the disadvantages of 9V?

a) Slightly cheaper (although you're not exactly changing batteries on a daily basis, so...  )
b) Easier to find in an emergency than 9V
c) There is no (c)

[Mr. Scram]

I've just pulled the trigger for the 87-v I liked more the easy of use vs the 289, the battery life and the slower boot time in my opinion would be cumbersome in everyday use, also the size if you want to carry it everyday. That's not to say that it isn't a good meter, just not what i would prefer using everyday if you only need non-logging functions.
I have nothing against the use of 9V as a power source, why would you prefer AA or AAA? what are the disadvantages of 9V? the fuse door compartment would be a nice addition, but in my opinion it is not something that you change very often... in fact in my ~9 years of experience between grad school and professional life I only manage to do a short with a meter once.

It's a good meter, despite the 9 V battery and inaccessible fuses. I love the simplicity and how quick it is. You certainly didn't make a bad choice. It's a meter you're bound to enjoy for a long time.

The main advantages of AA or AAA batteries are having more capacity in roughly the same space and them being cheaper and more widely available. I thought the same about the fuses, but had to replace one for the first time the other day and taking such an expensive meter apart, with self tapping screws in plastic and having to snap the casing apart didn't quite feel comfortable. I prefer the accessible fuses of the Keysight for sure. It's not an insurmountable problem, but it doesn't quite coincide with the quality of the rest of the meter.

[jaja_622]

It's a good meter, despite the 9 V battery and inaccessible fuses. I love the simplicity and how quick it is. You certainly didn't make a bad choice. It's a meter you're bound to enjoy for a long time.

The main advantages of AA or AAA batteries are having more capacity in roughly the same space and them being cheaper and more widely available. I thought the same about the fuses, but had to replace one for the first time the other day and taking such an expensive meter apart, with self tapping screws in plastic and having to snap the casing apart didn't quite feel comfortable. I prefer the accessible fuses of the Keysight for sure. It's not an insurmountable problem, but it doesn't quite coincide with the quality of the rest of the meter.

Yeah, I agree with you. It would be better with a fuse access door and maybe the AA battery(still not very convinced that this makes much difference, at least IMHO).
But as other people said, you buy a Fluke for the reliability and confidence on the instrument, I can't stress this enough, having a meter that you don't trust when making a reading is the worst thing that can happen to you (well... maybe the second one, the first would be that it blows on you). I wish I had the money to have one of these when I was in grad school and was using those cheap meters to diagnose my circuits.

[rsjsouza]

One of the disadvantages in opening the meter to replace a fuse is you are forced to break calibration seals. Being a hobbyist this does not matter at all (perhaps some will disagree with me).

You got a very nice meter that will last a lifetime - congratulations!

If you happen to see some shortcomings that you find addressed in other meters, you can always add another meter (although your ET-2033B is a reasonable second meter) or simply resell it as it tends to hold its value pretty well over the years. 

One additional detail is that, since you put quite an emphasis on low current measurements, you may find useful to look into Dave's uCurrent to keep the burden voltage low.

[Fungus]

One of the disadvantages in opening the meter to replace a fuse is you are forced to break calibration seals. Being a hobbyist this does not matter at all (perhaps some will disagree with me).

If you blow a fuse you're supposed to get it recalibrated anyway.

(In fact this might be a reason Fluke makes the fuses inaccessible... to force people to break seals in environments where meters are controlled/audited)

[Mr. Scram]

If you blow a fuse you're supposed to get it recalibrated anyway.

(In fact this might be a reason Fluke makes the fuses inaccessible... to force people to break seals in environments where meters are controlled/audited)

The manual doesn't mention the need for calibration after replacing the fuses. I think it was a competing model, but remember that manual specifically stating that recalibration was not required after replacing the fuses. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Obviously, you could just stick the calibration sticker over the fuse door if that's the concern. I think some bench meters do it that way.

[Fungus]

The manual doesn't mention the need for calibration after replacing the fuses.

It wouldn't be because of the fuses, it would be because you opened it up and might contaminate the insides.

(which would be solved by having the fuses in an external compartment, so we're going in circles...  )


The other argument I've heard is that the F87 fuses are internal for safety reasons, to contain any blast when they vaporize.

My Fluke 27 has the fuses in the battery compartment but it has a massive battery door (four screws!) and a secondary blast cover over the fuses when you get inside.

[rsjsouza]

If you blow a fuse you're supposed to get it recalibrated anyway.

(In fact this might be a reason Fluke makes the fuses inaccessible... to force people to break seals in environments where meters are controlled/audited)

The manual doesn't mention the need for calibration after replacing the fuses. I think it was a competing model, but remember that manual specifically stating that recalibration was not required after replacing the fuses. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Obviously, you could just stick the calibration sticker over the fuse door if that's the concern. I think some bench meters do it that way.

I couldn't find anything for the 87-5, but the removal of fuses without the need to re-calibrate is sold as an advantage on the Fluke 187-189 manual:


Therefore, a blown fuse does not require recalibration in all DMM models (which could potentially be extended to ALL models, unless it was a damaging blow that spews material all over the PCB) and the 87-5 will most probably require recalibration after fuse replacement.

[2N3055]

...
It wouldn't be because of the fuses, it would be because you opened it up and might contaminate the insides.
(which would be solved by having the fuses in an external compartment, so we're going in circles...  )

Depending on the energy applied, in theory, you could have damaged something else in addition to fuse.. Hence calibration...
In big companies, they don't let you change the fuse yourself. You return it for repair and calibration. To them it's damaged for whatever reason as it doesn't work properly anymore. And you are not allowed to mess with the instrument. You have to deliver it to department in charge of instrumentation maintenance to be repaired and calibrated... Many places are like that, military, oil refineries, chemical plants ....
It is probably designed that way ON REQUEST by such customers..

Also you are right, it is part of mechanical containment design, and as you mention, if you do it differently, you need to reinforce door...

[Electro Detective]

Lest we forget that with a LOT of Flukes (and other brands?) a number #1 MAJOR disadvantage in opening the meter to replace a fuse, whether or not it affects calibration status or validity,
is you are inadvertently cracking, breaking or compromising the holding strength of the plastic posts which mate with self tapping screws decades of ongoing production oversight/apathy meets DUMBASSERY

Basically the meter can not, and will not, meet it's CAT specs on a serious BANG!
and the user better pray the yellow holster helps in absorbing some of it,
especially in HV/HI work if not wearing FULL protective gear, which most don't, the reason being (besides laziness) that the expensive pr0fessional meter is assumed 'safe' 

The concerned user approaching poverty that can't dish out for another overpriced hyped meter, now has the option to doing what's in the photo below
to improve the raped posts CAT-Less meter's chances on a BANG!
and lift its chances to stay intact during a drop on to a concrete or marble floor,

as weakened, cracked or sheared posts certainly won't be doing the meter and the user's pocket any favors... 

[Electro Detective]

If they do produce a Fluke 87-6     they may include the Low Z feature, perhaps an AC proximity sensor alert

a) It would be called the 87 VI 

That might cause confusion with the 87 IV, and besides Roman numerals are approaching passe status   

b) They wouldn't add new features in an existing product line, they'd create an exciting new line (and charge accordingly).

They did that with the 87-1, added features, and a faster Min-Max Peak capture to 87-3 and 87V...hasn't hurt sales yet in 25+ years 

I understand that there really isn't much that the 87-V is missing

Ability to default to DC in current mode?

Not going to happen any time soon, when cashed up electrical based tradespeople being the 'AC voltage and current' big spenders (and GAS showoffs)       in 2017, 2018 and beyond 


and any insane redesign from 9v battery use to AA or AAA on the classic 87x format is just begging for leakage mayhem    

[stj]

maybe a CR2 lithium cell would be a compromise??
or just specify the use of lithium AA's - i'v never heard of a leak.
maybe that's why some camera brands specify them.

[blacksheeplogic]

Not going to happen any time soon, when cashed up electrical based tradespeople being the 'AC voltage and current' big spenders (and GAS showoffs)       in 2017, 2018 and beyond 


and any insane redesign from 9v battery use to AA or AAA on the classic 87x format is just begging for leakage mayhem   

It's unlikely this would change because generally changing  default on an existing product is not well received. I also don't really think this is a significant issue for the user base. I've had the 87 since the early 90's and it's something you just get used to.

I prefer having the 9v in the 87. For a very long time the 87 was my only meter and  I used to carry an original 87 to out of the way shit holes all over the world. Never ever had a situation where I needed to replace the battery immediately. These are not meters that eat though batteries like some of my others. The ant-9v battery in the 87 is just needless whining at best.

[Kilo Tango]

This works for me, rechargables last a long time.

Ken

[LoFi]

I would vote for two new Fluke meters:

1) a small compact meter, similar to Fluke 107 in size, but with most of the current 87v features (including autohold, analog graph, min/max/avg, Peak).  Perhaps limited to 6000 count.  Street price about $150 or so... I'd buy one in a heartbeat... even if it weren't quite as accurate as the current 87v, but with most of the current features.

2) an updated 87vi similar to current 87v size, but with a slightly bigger LCD display, and a few other upgrades.  I kind of like the form factor and one-handed control dial of the Fluke 117, and wouldn't mind seeing that used in an 87vi... but perhaps that would be messing too much with tradition.  The bigger display is one thing about the 17b+ that I like a better than the 87v... I find the 17b+ easier to read in dim light without needing to resort to the backlight.  I'd like a higher default count, say 10,000 count instead of the current 6000, although this isn't huge.  But a number of cheapies are starting to show up with with higher counts, so Fluke should probably respond. Other features already mentioned: easy fuse access, simple bluetooth capabilities and simple logging.  The 87v is already pretty fast... but go ahead... make it faster!... and even more accurate... and more bulletproof.  I won't complain.

(Edit: Oh, I thought of a couple more I'd really like.  Allow the user to make DC the default for current rather than AC... I frequently trip over this.  Lo-Z and NCV from the 117 would also be quite nice).

Although it's an old design, the 87v is still a great meter and doesn't lack for much.... but it's probably time to bump up the value for price.

[Electro Detective]

I vote for some 87-6 'keep the same style don't change it' extra TURN ON user options that should be easy peazy to implement. 

1. Current mode set to read DC whether rocking back and forth from A/mA to uA
When meter is switched off, it reverts back to the same AC current default (switchable to DC)

2. Low Z on AC voltage
When meter is switched off, it reverts back to non Low Z AC voltage default

3. ALL the OPTIONS engraved in the back of the meter body, AND a laminated card that can be stored between body and holster

4. A better kickstand that's actually USABLE and unbreakable please!!!

5. Keep the price REAL

6. Two FREE 87-6 meters for me  from Fluke for suggesting this,
on top of the FAT royalty check/cheque,
because I deserve it and because Fluke will clean up with this meter (winner winner, LOTS of chicken dinners)


Of course there's more that may be crammed into the 87-6 aka 87VLE (Limited Edition)  without causing grief to Fluke production 

I'll post it here when my suggestion clouds come rolling back...  after a few beers

[stj]

i dont think option-5 is compatable with Fluke company policy! 

[blacksheeplogic]

5. Keep the price REAL

Could you elaborate on this point, I would really like to know what the difference between today's price for a 87 is compared to this   'keep it real' price for the 87. Simple economics suggested the price point for the 87 is about right (he target market is willing to pay this price for the meter, it's feature set matched to that segments actual requirements, it's reputation, and the companies reputation). Fluke are not a not-for-profit charity, it's also not priced or targeted towards the hobbits market (thankfully).

I also find it interesting how well paid people are who's only expense to work is getting there ass into a car and driving to/from work and then criticize the pricing a company charges for it's products. Why don't you buy the facilities to develop a product or perform a service and see what it really cost to stay in business. Profit permits investment and helps offset development cost especially for products that may have lower demand but are still important to the portfolio.

If you can't afford an 87, justify the cost of an 87, or need the capabilities of the 87 go buy a different meter. Just stop the whining.

[Electro Detective]

I understand your stance, and I'm well versed in 'how business works to stay in business' too,
and a Fluke user and plugger from the 1990s.

"5. Keep the price REAL"
i.e. it may not be good business practice to overprice a long accepted model from $999 to $1666 just because of a small outlay of $100? to add a 5 cents? Low Z resistor and associated soft/hard links,
firmware update for startup option selections, logo, packaging etc whilst keeping the same production tooling

It might stifle the product if charging way too much and give competing products the edge to corner that target market,
who may supply more features and higher CAT and   [[ D R O P ]]   and IPxxx Ratings to seal the deal, and different colored holsters... including amber yellow   

As it is Keysight are no slouches at the game, nor is Brymen and others


FWIW Company reputations, before the internet, used to build up gradually and stay that way for decades

Now with the internet and mobile communications, any company can get to the top and hit rock bottom in no time if their product and support aren't that great anymore

or believe if they charge too much, the cashed up snob value addict bunnies will still come with bags of cash, or corporates  will still order boxes of them


5. Keep the price REAL = $1250?

with all the extra goodies thrown in like good leads/probes (not the generic semi-stiffies) insulated croc clips, the magnet hanging thingie, hard case, spare fuses
and full user instruction manual in paperback form with included applications, specs, limitations, DO NOTS, and cautions



AND screw metal inserts, no more ongoing inferior plastic post CAT defeating    FIASCOS, please... 

[lem_ix]

Fluke seem to be more interested in thermal cameras then a new DMM. And even if they were it'd be an industrial one again. EU prices are somewhat absurd as well. You can get an entry level rigol or siglent bench dmm + a hand held for about the same money as 87V ~600 eur.

[BBBbbb]

Not sure Fluke has any real competition in their main segment.
They have good level of local support in almost any country (representation and calibration) and superior traceability. Fact that you get more bang for the buck from Brymen or someone else doesn't mean too much to big players procuring equipment.

[BBBbbb]

Fluke seem to be more interested in thermal cameras then a new DMM. And even if they were it'd be an industrial one again. EU prices are somewhat absurd as well. You can get an entry level rigol or siglent bench dmm + a hand held for about the same money as 87V ~600 eur.

There are a lot of sellers from China that will sell you a genuine F87VC if you pay the correct price, which is similar to US price (~$420). However, most Chinese sellers will declare fake CN22, so you don't pay that much tax for getting it into your country. Since they do that automatically without asking you, you have plausible deniability even if the customs discover it.

Not sure any customs pay attention to the declared price of goods coming from China, usually they'll google it if it looks expensive.

[BBBbbb]

Not sure any customs pay attention to the declared price of goods coming from China, usually they'll google it if it looks expensive.

Fluke 87VC package is printed in Chinese, and it looks nothing different than a cheap Chinese meter on the box. Unless the custom officer is also an EE and knows Fluke, otherwise it's likely they won't bother.
F87VC does have international warranty (you need to ask the seller to print a formal invoice for you with your name on it), and is internally identical to F87 international version.

Even if you pay tax honestly, it's still can be cheaper to import than buy locally, especially for high tax, high welfare countries like EU or Australia.

Nope, Chinese print won't stop them for opening the box and seeing Fluke 87V(C) on the meter and then google and see the EU (or US) listed prices and tax you on that value.
Here it would mean 30% (VAT 20% + 10% c.tariff) and it would end up the same as bought locally.

[lem_ix]

Not sure Fluke has any real competition in their main segment.
They have good level of local support in almost any country (representation and calibration) and superior traceability. Fact that you get more bang for the buck from Brymen or someone else doesn't mean too much to big players procuring equipment.

Here and probably in similar countries big players seem more prudent with their money. For example Sanwa here seems to be the meter of choice probably because of senior engineer recommendation. Then again electronics engineers aren't really Fluke's main market.

[blacksheeplogic]

5. Keep the price REAL = $1250?

with all the extra goodies thrown in like good leads/probes (not the generic semi-stiffies) insulated croc clips, the magnet hanging thingie, hard case, spare fuses
and full user instruction manual in paperback form with included applications, specs, limitations, DO NOTS, and cautions


AND screw metal inserts, no more ongoing inferior plastic post CAT defeating    FIASCOS, please...

I do not disagree with your point on providing additional value, Fluke could and should provide additional value. The Magnetic Strap to me should have been in the box for example. The lack of metal threaded inserts was a problem on the older meters which needed to be opened for battery replacement and calibration. It's not an issue now.

My point was simply that a company will price it's products based on what the market segment is willing to pay. I don't have a problem with this because I would do the same. Like yourself, when I needed a meter I could depend on the Fluke was the choice, it's what our supplies had, and I paid the asking price. Today, there's others out there but Fluke still has the reputation and the long time user base.

The hobbyists market is largely a race to the bottom and is seems there's plenty of manufactures in that market, but hobbyists have an expectation that all manufactures should cater to their price points. Some have chosen not to however.

[Mr. Scram]

Maybe you should take a look at what's known as the "Danaher Business System". It's a bit notorious and certainly doesn't have the customer or product well-being in mind. They'll squeeze Fluke for all it's worth, eroding the brand if they have to. You see reputation cash grabs everywhere and it's not pretty, but people catch on sooner or later.

[jaja_622]

The hobbyists market is largely a race to the bottom and is seems there's plenty of manufactures in that market, but hobbyists have an expectation that all manufactures should cater to their price points. Some have chosen not to however.

For the same price of F87V, you can get a Keysight meter with a lot of bells and whistles as well as some fairly advanced features that only exist in F289, plus a luxury set of test leads (at least my U1461A came with a luxury set of them, don't know what's included with $400 range meters).

You do have to pay some price for the better bang per buck, that's firmware bugs. My U1461A is a death trap, and its analog mux sometimes gets configured improperly so that the meter reads 0V or a random small floating voltage when its test leads are actually seeing many hundreds of volts*.
I can see that being a huge problem for electrical uses, but for electronics uses where for most of the time you are probing a <100V circuit, this is not a big problem -- if I see some stupid readings, I know the analog mux is fucked up again and I just need to reboot the meter. When I do touch anywhere mains connected, I have an F289 for that.
But that being said, the U1461A is a one of its kind meter. You don't see too many meters that comes with a programmable 1.1kV power supply built in and a nA resolution current detector. The insulation DMM is very handy for my SMPS testing, as an insulation sanity check before I hook it up to mains. The same functionality (particularly, 1V resolution programmable test voltage) on a better insulation meter brand, such as Megger, will cost many times the price I paid for my U1461A. For the money, I'm quite happy.

If you read the GW121 bugs thread, you will see the same trend -- more features on a cheaper meter=more bugs. Fluke spent tons of money to make sure their firmware will not do stupid thing like not reading a high voltage, which can cause death. But on the other hand, you have to pay for the premium, and live with reduced functionality. If I'm only looking for a benchtop low voltage meter, I will still consider functionality over safety.

*: This has also happened to previous U12xx meters, and it gets worse in my U1461A. It occasionally reports blown fuse in current fuse, which actually the fuse is fine and I just need to reboot the meter. It also shows zero reading in current mode occasionally, in addition to voltage mode, and similarly, OL in Ohms range and open in diode/continuity/capacitance mode. The difference is U1461A still hasn't received a firmware fix on this issue, and the last firmware update dates back to 2015.

Having those kinds of error when working with mains voltage can get you killed, while I agree that Fluke could lower some of its prices, in reality the assurance that you won't have those kind of errors is what you are paying for... and if you ask me, 100 or 200 dollars extra to have a meter you can rely on isn't that bad considering the consequences that reading 0V on a live 220V circuit could have.

[Fungus]

I agree that Fluke could lower some of its prices ... 100 or 200 dollars extra to have a meter you can rely on isn't that bad considering the consequences that reading 0V on a live 220V circuit could have.

Did you know that Fluke makes other meters apart from the 87V?

With $100 to spend I can choose between half a dozen Fluke multimeters.

Even with only $50 budget I can still get a super-safe Fluke, with delivery! 

[jaja_622]

I agree that Fluke could lower some of its prices ... 100 or 200 dollars extra to have a meter you can rely on isn't that bad considering the consequences that reading 0V on a live 220V circuit could have.

Did you know that Fluke makes other meters apart from the 87V?

With $100 to spend I can choose between half a dozen Fluke multimeters.

Even with only $50 budget I can still get a super-safe Fluke, with delivery! 

Yeah I understand that.. maybe I expressed myself wrong... is when you try and compare similar featured test equipment that the Fluke's usually command a certain premium.
Of course you can get a cheaper DMM, but in that case it will probably have less features than a similar priced option from other brand also.

[Fungus]

Yeah I understand that.. maybe I expressed myself wrong... is when you try and compare similar featured test equipment that the Fluke's usually command a certain premium.

On a checkbox-feature list, maybe.

But ... a month ago who would have suspected the reason that Fluke carefully takes all the PCB vias away from the switch contacts on their PCBs?

Let's compare a typical multimeter (vias in the tracks) with a Fluke 17B+ (where all the vias are moved off to the side). 


Fluke obviously does that for a reason but can you guess why? 

It appears that those vias cause friction, create resistance in the switch contact and shorten the life of the meter. That picture shows the 17B+ after the switch has been turned 50,000 times (the ZT101 above is brand new).

Compare it to the ZT101 after 50,000 turns:


Question: Which of those two meters is overpriced?

(and what other tricks does Fluke know when it comes to building reliable multimeters)

Flukes also have those precision laser trimmed resistors in them for stability and long life, etc. Those things are expensive, you won't find them in cheapo meters.

[HKJ]

Question: Which of those two meters is overpriced?

When you compare, remember to include Brymen, they are cheaper than Fluke.

[Fungus]

When you compare, remember to include Brymen, they are cheaper than Fluke.

Yes, Brymen is really the only other brand that holds up well under scrutiny.

[LoFi]

Yeah I understand that.. maybe I expressed myself wrong... is when you try and compare similar featured test equipment that the Fluke's usually command a certain premium.

On a checkbox-feature list, maybe.

But ... a month ago who would have suspected the reason that Fluke carefully takes all the PCB vias away from the switch contacts on their PCBs?

Let's compare a typical multimeter (vias in the tracks) with a Fluke 17B+ (where all the vias are moved off to the side). 
...
It appears that those vias cause friction, create resistance in the switch contact and shorten the life of the meter. That picture shows the 17B+ after the switch has been turned 50,000 times (the ZT101 above is brand new).

Compare it to the ZT101 after 50,000 turns:
...

Interesting.  I had not seen these photos before.  Does the ZT101 still function correctly?... seems hard to imagine with switch contacts degraded that much.  I have been impressed with the function and accuracy of the little cheapo AN8002/AN8008 (which I believe are in the same family as the ZT101).  But such photos show pretty conclusively that these can only be considered for light use. Not surprising for a $20 meter, but still helpful to see the photographic evidence.  It would be interesting to see what those ZT101 contacts look like after just 10K or 20K turns.   It's reassuring to see that Fluke builds this kind of quality into even their least expensive meters (17b+).  Thanks for posting this...

[Fungus]

Interesting.  I had not seen these photos before.

They're screenshots I just made from videos over in the robustness thread.

Does the ZT101 still function correctly?

No.

It would be interesting to see what those ZT101 contacts look like after just 10K or 20K turns.

There's no photos of the insides but there's measurements of the contact resistance as it progresses. The Fluke stays close to zero for the entire test, the ZT101/AN8008 doesn't. See video.

It's reassuring to see that Fluke builds this kind of quality into even their least expensive meters (17b+).  Thanks for posting this...

A month ago I was in the "Fluke17B+ is overpriced" camp.

Now I'm not so sure, it's starting to look like a nice little meter - definitely the same DNA as the 87V.

[LoFi]

A month ago I was in the "Fluke17B+" is overpriced camp.

Now I'm not so sure, it's starting to look like a nice little meter - definitely the same DNA as the 87V.

Yes. I recently bought a 17b+ as a 2nd good meter to back up an 87v.  I've been impressed with the quality and value-for-price.  It's not as quick as the 87v, or quite as accurate, but is still a very nice meter and feels very solid and fluke-like.  The switch-contact test photos seem to support that...

[zaoka]

When you compare, remember to include Brymen, they are cheaper than Fluke.

Yes, Brymen is really the only other brand that holds up well under scrutiny.

Look Hioki meters, that brand is one of the best.

[Electro Detective]

The 'entry level' Fluke fared better than the 24/7 sweatshop produced cheapo clay pigeon meters,

but hey, the Fluke is 10 times the price, so you would expect some value for money, especially selector switch longevity


Perhaps if the wheel choc cheapo meters were opened up ocassionally for a selector switch dust off a reflow and light lube, they would last a LOT longer,

assuming the owner cares and hasn't got a 'just bin it' policy in place   

[Electro Detective]

The 'entry level' Fluke fared better than the 24/7 sweatshop produced cheapo clay pigeon meters,

You seem to have a beef with Chinese factories.
Those so called sweat shops are nowhere to be seen anymore.
Chinese factory workers still have much inferior working condition and compensation by western standard,
but compared with the brutal rapid capitalization period of China (80s, 90s), things are getting much better now.

 

Then perhaps they should be referred to as 'polished' sweat shops    if that helps tone down the vibe 

[Electro Detective]

KEEPING the 9v battery, versus AA and AAA in the Fluke 87 meter:

The 9v battery clip (if in good condition and tensioned properly with the battery) makes for a great direct connection to the 87x meter at all times,

so no funny business going on as the battery drops down to 8 and 7 volts... it should still be a solid performer, even when bumped   


unlike AA and AAAs jumping or moving off their terminals ever so slightly when meter is knocked about,

especially once the holding foam shrinks and or turns to sticky goo and literally pulls the batteries off their terminals, TRUE STORY!   

I'd rather take the risk of ONE 9v battery taking a leak at the bottom of the 87V to clean up (and a few dollars spent for a new battery clip if crusty and green) ,
than 3 or 4 AA or AAAs going off at random, leaking their jazz ALL OVER THE MAIN BOARD and selector switch tracks !!! 

I certainly would not grumble at, or expect Fluke to sort that out cheap, nor do it for free under warranty   


An option for a second 9v battery in parallel and or sitting there as a spare would be a handy meter update for Fluke 87V-LE 


Where's the Fluke rep with my overdue royalty cheques, and box of free prototype meters to test, evaluate and fine tune?   

[Falkra]

I have a 87-V, 27-II and 28-II at the moment.

Same features, as said before. The 28-II is a tank, really heavy in comparison.

I have a feeling that the 27 and 28 are faster than the 87 when measuring. You get the value on display quicker than with the 87-V.
Can someone confirm ? Maybe something related to the autoranging routines (optimized) ?

[joeqsmith]

It would be interesting to see what those ZT101 contacts look like after just 10K or 20K turns.

There's no photos of the insides but there's measurements of the contact resistance as it progresses. The Fluke stays close to zero for the entire test, the ZT101/AN8008 doesn't. See video.

That would be difficult aside from pulling the meter apart for inspection.  Brymen does this and you may have noticed in the one clip they provided, they had machined a viewing port into the case of one of the meters they were running.    I wonder what sort of testing UEI perfromed on their new meter.   

So far the only meters that I have looked at that even come close to matching that Flukes contact resistance was the two Brymens.  However, PA4TIM posted the following response:

Nice testing, Brymen, the new Fluke ;-) About switches. I just repaired two Fluke 336 meters. Both had problems with the lubricated switches. The grease and copper/gold "grinding-dust" caused leakage between switch positions. see a picture on my site:

http://schneiderelectronicsrepair.nl/?p=597

[Fungus]

I have a 87-V, 27-II and 28-II at the moment.

Same features, as said before. The 28-II is a tank, really heavy in comparison.

The Fluke web site says it's only 10% heavier. 

[EEVblog]

I have a 87-V, 27-II and 28-II at the moment.

Same features, as said before. The 28-II is a tank, really heavy in comparison.

The Fluke web site says it's only 10% heavier. 

+1 for tank.
It's not something I'd want to use on the bench.
It was designed for the military and industrial markets.
2018 and still no replacement for the venerable 87...

[Fungus]

2018 and still no replacement for the venerable 87...

It's still the industry standard, still selling like hot cakes, why would they replace it?

[Falkra]

I have a 87-V, 27-II and 28-II at the moment.

Same features, as said before. The 28-II is a tank, really heavy in comparison.

The Fluke web site says it's only 10% heavier. 

It feels even heavier. 

Let's compare !  For science, of course, with that awesome scale (erm, "sensitive computer"). 
The batteries are inside, so it's the only reason why the 28-II feels heavy. It has heavy batteries inside. 

See attachments.

[Fungus]

I would like to see KS to roll an F87/F289 killer with actually no deadly bugs.

There already are some F87 killers on sale but Fluke's branding is so strong that very few people can name them.

[rx8pilot]

I purchased a Fluke 87 in 1995. It has traveled the world. I lost it once, only to find it in Las Vegas 2 years later.

Still in daily use.

Short and misplld from my mobile......

[lowimpedance]

I purchased a Fluke 87 in 1995. It has traveled the world. I lost it once, only to find it in Las Vegas 2 years later.

Still in daily use.

Short and misplld from my mobile......

Huh!.........okay I'll bite, You lost it where ? and 2 years later you found it again how?.
Not in the same casino I guess  .

[rx8pilot]

The lost Fluke 87 story....

I was working at a trade show in Amsterdam when it was lost. It was a couple of weeks before it was even discovered missing because I didn't immediately unpack my stuff when I got back home in Los Angeles.

I was quite disappointed in the loss as this meter was part of my kit on many adventures around the world.

Long after I had given up, I was working at another trade show about 2 years later in Las Vegas. I saw some friends setting up their booth and stopped by to say hello. I saw a Fluke 87 on the counter and picked it up. I said to my friend, 'I used to have one of these!'. About the same time I noticed a few familiar scuffs. I asked who owns this meter, my buddy said he did not know. It has been in their trade show tool kit for a couple of years. I then took it out of the yellow case and my name and telephone number were on the back with P-Touch tape. We had a big laugh.

One of the other guys said he found it in Amsterdam and when no one came looking for it, he just put it in the tool box and forgot about it. No one ever took it out of the case to see my name. I vaguely remember walking around with my tool bag at that show, guessing I set it down while stopping to say hello.

Safe and sound now.

Short and misplld from my mobile......

[BBBbbb]

Work in some more details and don’t be afraid to describe the emotions a bit (on both sides), and you’ve got a Hollywood worthy love story on your hands.

[Electro Detective]

It's a great ending to a love story no doubt   

but sell the script and rights to Fluke direct, and let them commission an independent talented film maker to shoot it 

Don't give it to hollywood, they'll turn the whole thing into some grey shaded, incomprehensible pos,

and subject the innocent 87 to s e x, drugs, murder, dialogue mumbling, toilet humor, pointless scene changes and flashbacks that start, go and return nowhere,

with a last minute alien invasion thrown in for good measure... whereby the 87 gets thrown into an extra-terrestrial tradie's toolbox    (yo mofo earthlings!)

and taken to another galaxy    How else will the sequel and prequel happen ?   

[GameProgrammer79]

fluks are desirable like apple (not mango) i-phones.. i have taken a selfie with a fluke so to look professional  it is all about branding and image it creates. They are doing some thing right that has created a positive image - for example consistent good quality with successive products and new revisions.. durable products and good after sales service. Brand awareness through advertisements and other means to create a positive impression about the product.

[dirtcooker]

Fluke needs to add LoZ volts, PC interface, ac+dc rms and recall of meter state between power ups. A 60 ohm range would be nice too.  Then I would have bought the 87V instead of the BM869. The Fluke 289 would be perfect if it weren't so big and heavy and power hungry. 6 AA batteries? That's 150g vs 45g for a 9v. I love Fluke gear and have an old 76 multimeter and 199c scopemeter which is fabulous. I work on 400vdc EV gear and need safety and isolation. The Brymen has better accuracy and higher safety rating too. Fluke needs to up their game. TME delivered the Brymen in 3 days to USA.

[floobydust]

There's no need to spend money on R&D for new products when you can continue milking the 87 cow. It is King of the Hill. 87-V $430 USD, the 289 $600 USD at Mouser. Worth it for some of us.
Fluke is not the same company, it's just a brand name ever since evil mega-conglomerate Danaher bought them for $625 million in 1998. Now it's spin off Fortive. The focus is on creating shareholder value through mergers and acquisitions.
John Fluke had his heart in the business, many legendary products were developed - back then.

[james_s]

That happens to every successful company sooner or later, eventually the people who really had their heart in it either retire or pass away, nothing lasts forever.

That said, I've been very happy with my Fluke 87, the only thing I really wish it had was an audible diode test function like the old Fluke 29/79 had. It's such a time saver since you can test semiconductors quickly without looking up from the board.

[Fungus]

Fluke needs to add LoZ volts, PC interface, ac+dc rms and recall of meter state between power ups. A 60 ohm range would be nice too.

I'd add a high impedance mode that goes above 600mV. 6V would be enough.

The Brymen has better accuracy and higher safety rating too. Fluke needs to up their game.

Hardly anybody outside these forums knows about Brymen, everybody knows Fluke.

[rsjsouza]

That happens to every successful company sooner or later, eventually the people who really had their heart in it either retire or pass away, nothing lasts forever.

That said, I've been very happy with my Fluke 87, the only thing I really wish it had was an audible diode test function like the old Fluke 29/79 had. It's such a time saver since you can test semiconductors quickly without looking up from the board.

Interesting; you mean beeping when the diode is reading from 0.2 to 0.6V?

If so, both my old 179 and a recently added 189 have this. I agree it is quite convenient.

[james_s]

Yes, a short beep for a good junction, a solid beep for shorted, my benchtop Fluke has it too, I use it all the time.

[newbrain]

Yes, a short beep for a good junction, a solid beep for shorted, my benchtop Fluke has it too, I use it all the time.

Which Fluke 87 series have you got?
I am not at home to try it, but I'm sure my 87V beeps with good diodes!

Straight from the horse's mouth, the manual, page 22:

In a circuit, a good diode should still produce a forward-bias reading of 0.5 V to 0.8 V; however, the reverse-bias reading can vary depending on the resistance of other pathways between the probe tips. A short beep sounds if the diode is good (< 0.85 V). A continuous beep sounds if the reading is ≤ 0.100 V. This reading would indicate a short circuit. The display shows “OL” if the diode is open.

EtA: Found that you have a series III, the 87IV also has it (though it's not a "real" 87...).

[james_s]

Yes I think mine is a series III, I'm not home at the moment so I can't check. The differences are a bit annoying, one would think that each series would be an incremental improvement over the last.

[tszaboo]

2018 and still no replacement for the venerable 87...

It's still the industry standard, still selling like hot cakes, why would they replace it?

I started suggesting the U1272A instead of the 87V a long time ago.

[Fungus]

I started suggesting the U1272A instead of the 87V a long time ago.

Even more expensive!

The Brymen BM869S is about 200 euros.

[rsjsouza]

I started suggesting the U1272A instead of the 87V a long time ago.

Even more expensive!

The Brymen BM869S is about 200 euros.

I agree on the Brymens, but the U127x family is also really nice and has many useful features that, at least for me, tip the scale towards it: smart Ω, Low Z, reversible continuity test (NO or NC) and different trigger modes for logging.

Years ago one of the former members did a very thorough review of the BM869 and at times compared it to the U1272 and the 28II - quite interesting.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/brymen-bm869-review-by-the-eye-of-the-industrial-electrician/

[windsmurf]

No one likes FlukeConnect?   I think its rather nice.   Eliminates the need for any of those opto coupled USB cabling.  I think the next 87V (87VI?) should have FlukeConnect (I think its FlukeConnect2 now).

[coromonadalix]

Even the 287 and 289  need a redo  loll   a 87 VI  would be needed loll

yeah  it would be nice to have wireless communications / bluetooth ...    away the usb cable.

[tszaboo]

I started suggesting the U1272A instead of the 87V a long time ago.

Even more expensive!

The Brymen BM869S is about 200 euros.

The U1272A  is about 350 EUR while the 87V is about 500. So it is cheaper.

[windsmurf]

I started suggesting the U1272A instead of the 87V a long time ago.

Even more expensive!

The Brymen BM869S is about 200 euros.

The U1272A  is about 350 EUR while the 87V is about 500. So it is cheaper.

You can't buy a Brymen 869s here in the U.S. (although available through oversease resellers... and no warranty).
It looks like the Keysight 127xa and 128xa series are all discontinued now, at least it appears so in the U.S.
https://www.tequipment.net/AgilentU1272A.html?v=0

So you have to buy the Greenlee dm860a for $314.32 or a Fluke 87v for $386.99, a $72 difference.
https://www.tequipment.net/Greenlee/DM-860A/Multimeters/
https://www.tequipment.net/FlukeDigital87VMultimeter.html?search=true

[tszaboo]

I started suggesting the U1272A instead of the 87V a long time ago.

Even more expensive!

The Brymen BM869S is about 200 euros.

The U1272A  is about 350 EUR while the 87V is about 500. So it is cheaper.

You can't buy a Brymen 869s here in the U.S. (although available through oversease resellers... and no warranty).
It looks like the Keysight 127xa and 128xa series are all discontinued now, at least it appears so in the U.S.
https://www.tequipment.net/AgilentU1272A.html?v=0

So you have to buy the Greenlee dm860a for $314.32 or a Fluke 87v for $386.99, a $72 difference.
https://www.tequipment.net/Greenlee/DM-860A/Multimeters/
https://www.tequipment.net/FlukeDigital87VMultimeter.html?search=true

Or they dont have calibration plan for example. Which doesnt matter for home users, but it does when it comes to these kind of equipment. So you cannot compare a Fluke 87V to a Brymen based on the features, because it will fail on these basic business requirements.

[Cnoob]

My Fluke 87V has a revision 13 PCB and from memory in Dave's video his Fluke 87V had a revision 9 PCB , Which shows Fluke still tinker with the meter.
If you want more functionality get a Fluke 289 if you want wireless connectivity get a Fluke 3000 series.

The 87 has stood the test of time and I say leave well alone.

[Mr. Scram]

My Fluke 87V has a revision 13 PCB and from memory in Dave's video his Fluke 87V had a revision 9 PCB , Which shows Fluke still tinker with the meter.
If you want more functionality get a Fluke 289 if you want wireless connectivity get a Fluke 3000 series.

The 87 has stood the test of time and I say leave well alone.

Our pet Canadian has demonstrated a few times that tinkering with a product can simply mean cost optimising to the point you can no longer get away with it. It unfortunately often tends to be, especially with companies which buy up well known names. I should mention I'm not aware of this currently going on at Fluke.

[rsjsouza]

I started suggesting the U1272A instead of the 87V a long time ago.

Even more expensive!

The Brymen BM869S is about 200 euros.

The U1272A  is about 350 EUR while the 87V is about 500. So it is cheaper.

You can't buy a Brymen 869s here in the U.S. (although available through oversease resellers... and no warranty).
It looks like the Keysight 127xa and 128xa series are all discontinued now, at least it appears so in the U.S.
https://www.tequipment.net/AgilentU1272A.html?v=0

These meter families are still active.

This is TEquipment being terribly disingenuous with their practices. They mark something as "discontinued" from their website when, in fact, it is not carried by them anymore. That happens also with Siglent products.

Yeah, they could justify this as the product being "discontinued " only from their product line, but this term is not used in this sense by anyone else in the marketplace - everybody else uses "non-stock" or a variant of that.

[Fungus]

My Fluke 87V has a revision 13 PCB and from memory in Dave's video his Fluke 87V had a revision 9 PCB , Which shows Fluke still tinker with the meter.

Were those revisions done to improve it or to cut costs?

[Cnoob]

Were those revisions done to improve it or to cut costs?

possibly both. One 87 failed Joe Smith's test and others have suffered from RF interference which they improved /fixed.

If they found ways to cut costs, good on them because their warranty hasn't change.   

[windsmurf]

You can't buy a Brymen 869s here in the U.S. (although available through oversease resellers... and no warranty).
It looks like the Keysight 127xa and 128xa series are all discontinued now, at least it appears so in the U.S.
https://www.tequipment.net/AgilentU1272A.html?v=0

These meter families are still active.

This is TEquipment being terribly disingenuous with their practices. They mark something as "discontinued" from their website when, in fact, it is not carried by them anymore. That happens also with Siglent products.

Yeah, they could justify this as the product being "discontinued " only from their product line, but this term is not used in this sense by anyone else in the marketplace - everybody else uses "non-stock" or a variant of that.

I've been checking and it seems Keysight multimeters are no longer sold through dealers, but only from a handful of Distributors directly, in the U.S. 
They all have the same price, $394 for a Keysight U1272A, pricier than an 87V. 
I'd have to imagine they sell maybe one U1272A for every 100 87V sold. 

[rsjsouza]

I suspect you may be right regarding the sales volume, but their reseller selection is quite varied: 12 in their page for US.
https://www.keysight.com/main/partnerfinder.jspx?N=207358+187629&Ns=prodAvailability%7C0%7C%7CpartnerName%7C0&pageMode=RS&cc=US&lc=eng&nid=-32044.1242727