EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: mikeselectricstuff on November 23, 2017, 12:03:20 pm
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This looks interesting - claiming 3% accuracy for >16VAC contactless voltage measurement. Presumably the key is to have a high enough input impedance that coupling capacitance becomes insignificant.
http://content.fluke.com/promotions/promo-eprod/uken.html?utm_campaign=IG-EU-MULTI-Newsletter-2017-11-UKEN (http://content.fluke.com/promotions/promo-eprod/uken.html?utm_campaign=IG-EU-MULTI-Newsletter-2017-11-UKEN)
I think this is the patent - looks like they are comparing signals from a reference antenna at known position :
https://www.google.com/patents/US20150331017 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20150331017)
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Did you mean "coupling capacitance becomes significant".
Looks like an interesting technology. I see that it measures both current and voltage simultaneously, without leads or a clamp.
I see it still has typical 600 V CAT IV, 1000 V CAT III rating. I wonder how long before they come up with a high voltage version? Presumably without a direct electrical connection it should be easier to ensure safe higher voltage readings.
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I suppose it's due to the probes/leads at the bottom, this thing will probably easily achieve CAT IV over the whole line if they drop those. But I've been contemplating buying one just to see how it ticks inside, but they're a bit pricey for just that (150 EUR). Anyone has one of these already?
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If I didn't already have a pile of teardown items and not enough time I might have splashed some Patron cash on one, but just too busy atm!
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The manual says it works using the body of the user as ground reference, or the black test lead so there must be some serious shielding around the fork to reject adjacent wires.
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I might be mistaken, since I've been awake since 6:00 and the patent is heavily butchered legalese. But basically they seem to measure the electric field using an unspecified antenna shielded against excessive capacitive coupling. And then based on the impedance of the antenna and sensed element calculate the voltage, so I suppose they use the current to judge the impedance of the conductor. And one could infer the impedance of the antenna by loading a shield with a test signal I suppose? I want teardown photos of this thing and build my own >:D
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The sole Amazon review doesn't give confidence that this really works: https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-4910269-T6-1000-Electrical-technology/dp/B076DYBHCW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1511505552&sr=8-1&keywords=fluke+t6-1000 (https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-4910269-T6-1000-Electrical-technology/dp/B076DYBHCW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1511505552&sr=8-1&keywords=fluke+t6-1000)
"Since Fluke refuses to publish my critical review on their own website, I'll post it here in the hopes it can help people make an educated purchase decsion...
I ordered this new technology skeptically shortly after product announcement. And it's about what I expected, and have heard from others while waiting for it to arrive. The FieldSense for voltage is pretty unreliable without a connection from the black lead to a good ground. Using the only the backside ground button/pad, I've gotten readings anywhere from 0 volts to 347 volts (how coincidental is that??) from a single 120v conductor while standing on concrete in regular work boots. I can't even trust it to determine if ANY voltage is present, because it has indicated -0- volts on energized conductors, while indicating that it had an "acceptable" earth ground. Same issue exists even if I am touching a good earth ground point that works for the single-lead method; so grounding yourself doesn't appear to make it any more reliable, even if the screen shows you have a "good" earth ground connection and turns green to indicate a "valid" reading.
And yes, I had the both leads docked in the storage slots (this is important) while attempting the readings.
Using FieldSense with the black/ground lead on a good ground seems to be reliable and accurate, so I'll give that method a thumbs up. Just wish it worked truly "leads-free".
The other features are worth the price though, love the backlit screen! Maybe this concept will get better in a few generations. So if you're thinking about a purchase, maybe hold off until the technology improves, accept FieldsSense as a "novelty" feature in lead-free mode, or go with the seemingly bulletproof T5.:
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Fluke have just offered me one to look at.. stay tuned!
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AVE does not seem to be impressed. I may have even detected a rude word or three during the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7aSde8X5JU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7aSde8X5JU)
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Fluke offered me one to look at back in November, but I was like, meh.
I wonder if I now said "Hey, I've heard this really doesn't work, can I try one?" and see what they do ;D
Fluke Oz HQ is just around the corner from the lab.
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Even more in the follow-up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsRwQIuTNmE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsRwQIuTNmE)
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I never heard back after accepting an offer to look at one.
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Watching both of AvE's videos back to back hasn't instilled me with a lot of confidence. What the heck is going on down there at Fluke? :-BROKE
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Watching both of AvE's videos back to back hasn't instilled me with a lot of confidence. What the heck is going on down there at Fluke? :-BROKE
Looks like Danaher spun off Fortive and saddled them with a shitload of debt. I wonder if we'll see much good come out of Fluke or Tektronix ever again.
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I have calculated for this meter to have about 2MΩ input impedance using AvEs videos, is that bad for a voltmeter? (Also, I think measuring only up to 1kΩ proves that it has a kind of low input impedance, am I right?)
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AvE is being an idiot and if Fluke insinuated that, they were correct.
Two major problems: 1) The black probe is supposed to be "docked" in the back of the unit to use the touch ground contact in the back. It wasn't. 2) Even with a hard ground, he was trying to detect voltage on a big plastic Klein 10X line splitter. With a coil in it. And a neutral return somewhere in there also. Of course it didn't work.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-fieldsense-contactless-voltmeter/?action=dlattach;attach=418027;image)
At the end of vid #1 he had a slightly better arrangement, but really didn't insure that the conductor was in the prescribed location. It was badly framed and hard to tell exactly where everything was. Once the T6 became grounded it did briefly show a reading, but AvE had already decided to trash it, because that riles up the Fluke fan-boys vs. the AvE fan-boys and makes for more views on the ve-jay-oh.
I don't own one of these things. I just read the quick reference guide. And there are other (non-marketing) videos showing that it works when used by people who RTFM. Even on 24Vac HVAC controls. I wouldn't expect the accuracy to be all that great though. It's spec'ed at (3% + 3d) with hard ground and (6% + 3d) for touch ground, valid from 16V and up.
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AvE is a retard. At least half of what he says is flat out wrong. He's really good at seeming to know what he's talking about, but he really doesn't.
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AvE is a retard. At least half of what he says is flat out wrong. He's really good at seeming to know what he's talking about, but he really doesn't.
Easy to call a man a "retard" behind his back (what a charming line in talk you have), much tougher to actually support your casually flung out assertions. I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is. Pick a random, non-electronics video of his, and come back with the list of what he got right and what he got wrong. You hit less than 50% "flat out wrong", say you haven't got the time, say the dog ate your homework, or deliberately pick a video where the subject matter is obviously just opinion and you get to eat crow. No sauce, no bread, no potatoes, just neat roast crow, feathers optional.
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Jeez, you sound like I insulted your romantic interest. I would call him a retard to his face if you gave me his address and a plane ticket, but why? That's why we have telecommunications, dummy. I stopped watching his videos long ago due to the bad info and low-IQ "humor" (mispronouncing words hyuk hyuk). But interesting you would say "non-electronics". That's because you know about electronics and realize, he doesn't know shit about it. Which doesn't stop him from giving products that he doesn't understand bad reviews, or making instructional videos about electronics.
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Jeez, you sound like I insulted your romantic interest. I would call him a retard to his face if you gave me his address and a plane ticket, but why? That's why we have telecommunications, dummy. I stopped watching his videos long ago due to the bad info and low-IQ "humor" (mispronouncing words hyuk hyuk). But interesting you would say "non-electronics". That's because you know about electronics and realize, he doesn't know shit about it. Which doesn't stop him from giving products that he doesn't understand bad reviews, or making instructional videos about electronics.
Can you make a list where over half is flat out wrong with electronics included, bar the two videos we're discussing now?
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Which doesn't stop him from giving products that he doesn't understand bad reviews, or making instructional videos about electronics.
Uhhh... So where is your review of this product, with all your test specs and measurements, showing how fully wonderful it is in every aspect to rebut his "industrial" style review?
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This looks interesting - claiming 3% accuracy for >16VAC contactless voltage measurement. Presumably the key is to have a high enough input impedance that coupling capacitance becomes insignificant.
http://content.fluke.com/promotions/promo-eprod/uken.html?utm_campaign=IG-EU-MULTI-Newsletter-2017-11-UKEN (http://content.fluke.com/promotions/promo-eprod/uken.html?utm_campaign=IG-EU-MULTI-Newsletter-2017-11-UKEN)
I think this is the patent - looks like they are comparing signals from a reference antenna at known position :
https://www.google.com/patents/US20150331017 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20150331017)
Thanks for digging into this. It's a bit strange that GE holds it as Fluke's paper talks about them developing the technology. Based on the little info Fluke made available, this does seem to be close to what they describe with their reference but maybe it's totally different.
Even though these couple of videos make it look bad, there are several (not just Fluke's) showing it in operation and it looks pretty impressive. There were a few where the reviewers just talked about how good it was and never do anything with it. The lack of good information peeks my curiosity.
The sensing technique seems pretty interesting. I've made capacitive HV probes before but nothing like this with a reference. It makes sense. Maybe another hack for my UNI-T UT210E ....
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The placement of conductor in the fork is awfully finicky. When I'm checking for potentially lethal levels of electricity, finicky isn't on my list of desired features.
As for the grounding pad on the back, that just seems like trouble. Is it a high-impedance path under normal conditions? Yes. Now what happens in a gross overload condition when a couple internal components vaporize and the inside of the unit is filled with conductive plasma?
Finicky gimmicks aren't what made Fluke the most trusted name in hand-held meters.
Edit (grammar)
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The placement of conductor in the fork is awfully finicky. When I'm checking for potentially lethal levels of electricity, finicky on my list of desired features.
As for the grounding pad on the back, that just seems like trouble. Is it a high-impedance path under normal conditions? Yes. Now what happens in a gross overload condition when a couple internal components vaporize and the inside of the unit is filled with conductive plasma?
Finicky gimmicks aren't what made Fluke the most trusted name in hand-held meters.
Do you have a way to test how finicky it is? This is what I would have liked to have seen in a review but was unable to find one. Different wire sizes, insulation thicknesses, voltage levels..... Lots of tests could have been run so show it off.
No one measured the current through the meter with it in all of the modes using the meters highest rated voltage. Or at any voltage for that matter.
When you remove the ground lead from the rear, you detach the button. May be ok. When you have the ground lead installed, the human holding it may be enough to prevent the meter from overloading and creating a plasma. If you can get the GDT to break over, say 2KV, you have say a 1.5K resistor now in series with your body.... Hard to say. I assume they certified it for safety.
Then again, I bought a Gossen that can throw up low voltage readings if it gets near a magnetic hanger. :wtf: I'm sure it passes the safety standards but it seems IEC never considered a magnetic force like this. Gossen's marketing people may not have listened to the engineers who thought it was a bad idea to put unshielded latching relays in a meter. Maybe there are things with this meter that IEC did not consider, like using a human as a return path. :wtf: Too bad the manufacture's and other big players never weigh in here. We could all learn a lot from the experts.
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Screen shots from the video showing some of the front end. I can't tell how it is arranged but I wonder now if the GDT/PTC are both on the backside of the switch rather than the front. If so, this is the first time I have seen a Fluke designed like this.
If the meter were set to ohms (anything that engages this clamp) and the ground lead is in the holder so your body becomes the return path, the red lead is attached to line and a transient higher than the GDT rating is applied, could you harm a human.
I have a small pocket contact voltage detector that uses the human as a return path. I transient tested that unit from the tip to the ground plate and it still works today. That detector can't measure anything and always has a very high resistance. Still, I wouldn't risk using it. This Fluke is a different story. We need a much better review of one than what I have been able to find.
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Jeez, you sound like I insulted your romantic interest. I would call him a retard to his face if you gave me his address and a plane ticket, but why? That's why we have telecommunications, dummy. I stopped watching his videos long ago due to the bad info and low-IQ "humor" (mispronouncing words hyuk hyuk). But interesting you would say "non-electronics". That's because you know about electronics and realize, he doesn't know shit about it. Which doesn't stop him from giving products that he doesn't understand bad reviews, or making instructional videos about electronics.
As I thought, all mouth and no trousers. What address do we send the crow to?
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... It's a bit strange that GE holds it as Fluke's paper talks about them developing the technology. ...
That's probably the marketing department playing semantic antics with the difference between inventing and developing. It doesn't sound quite so slickly self-aggrandising to say that you licenced the technology from GE, assuming they did; if they didn't it sounds even less impressive if they ought to have said "we're hoping we don't get sued".
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So did my eyes / ears deceive me?
If its in current mode with the black lead tucked into the meter and you probe with the red lead, isn't there a path from the red lead thru the meter shunt and to the exposed pad on the back? There must be a high resistance between that pad and the black lead right? Seems like your asking for a rude awaking if your probing around in industrial gear with the red lead hanging out front and the black lead tucked in the back.
Whole contactless thing looks pretty $hit to me.
Might have to buy one for Dave...
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The other issue I see...
Having had live 480v wires fall out of the terminals on VFDs / motor starters due to loose connections, I'm not too keen on wiggling things around on live equipment. Jamming this meter around and pulling on wires to get a reading seems far more hazardous than just using the probes right to the terminals of live gear.
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Is there some way we could get together and fund one of these for Joeqsmith? I think of all the members of this forum, Joe would give the most thorough teating and review. I'd put in $10.00
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So did my eyes / ears deceive me?
If its in current mode with the black lead tucked into the meter and you probe with the red lead, isn't there a path from the red lead thru the meter shunt and to the exposed pad on the back?
Uh, there's no current shunt. So no, there's no low impedance path between the leads in normal conditions.
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Is there some way we could get together and fund one of these for Joeqsmith? I think of all the members of this forum, Joe would give the most thorough teating and review. I'd put in $10.00
I'll toss $50 in.
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Is there some way we could get together and fund one of these for Joeqsmith? I think of all the members of this forum, Joe would give the most thorough teating and review. I'd put in $10.00
I'll toss $50 in.
Me too.
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This latest AIO magic wand, apparently a marketing 'group wet dream' come production/retail reality FAIL, is clearly an intermittent operation dud meter
AvE doesn't claim to be the sharpest cold chisel in the tool box, but if this knowledegable gent can't get it to work, how will the target market of semi-clueless tradies, electricians, 'birthday gift' DIYers
and one beer too many giggling Youtube reviewers in Canuckland get the freakin thing to chooch (?!) and indicate what's going on?
Does DJ need to waste time on this Fluke FLOP? If anything, it will attract Fluke fanboy pretend trolls and a negative vibe come battleground in the Youtube comments :blah: :rant:
and perhaps more BS from YT on his channel. Tread carefully Sir! :scared:
FWIW, most open jaw clamp meters I've had the displeasure of using and praying they work, are a PITA and always seem to be temperamental in a switchboard multi wire rig,
either they won't register anything, or readings hop about... on a live wire that I know 100% is carrying 5 amps of continuous AC current!
I have a couple of these and I no longer think about using the 'works today, didn't yesterday' open jaw function :--
Give me a voltage probe stick, non contact buzzer, TRMS multimeter and -closing jaws- TRMS clamp meter any day to get the job done quick,
...and they're not that heavy to cart around guys,
buy a cheap hand trolley and plastic bucket if it's a real drama, works for me lol ;D
OTOH, if DJ doesn't mind a comment battlefield on Youtube doing a teardown and test of this dud meter, that may or may not fault on the day, good luck :popcorn:
Best might be to test the sucker first in real world conditions, teardown, reassemble, and run same tests again
Whatever the outcome I won't be buying a T6 at any price,
and I don't like the open jaw T5 either which I always see multiples of gathering dust in pawn establishments... ::)
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... It's a bit strange that GE holds it as Fluke's paper talks about them developing the technology. ...
That's probably the marketing department playing semantic antics with the difference between inventing and developing. It doesn't sound quite so slickly self-aggrandising to say that you licenced the technology from GE, assuming they did; if they didn't it sounds even less impressive if they ought to have said "we're hoping we don't get sued".
In another document Fluke states: " Now, Fluke engineers have developed and are patenting a new technology called FieldSense that improves on the open fork functionality by performing not only ac current but also ac voltage and frequency measurements. Voltage and current measurements can be made on one device at the same time, in real time. The Fluke T6 Electrical Tester with FieldSense technology is the first handheld test tool using this new patent-pending technology."
Thanks for those of you trying to pool your resources and offering to pay for one but I am not setup to accept any sort of payments.
I watched Fluke's latest video and it really didn't help me. They had "the" guy making the video, I would have expected so much more at that level. The one thing I go out of it is it sounds like there may be added resistance built into the battery cover to further limit the current through a human. The videos posted don't make any sort of basic measurements like this and I could not see anything. Maybe they are molded into the plastic. I would assume if you are using the leads, you have proper gear on.
My interest in getting one would be to get a better idea how the sensor works. If I buy one, it would be the 1KV split display unit. Hard to say if people would see this as a problem when comparing it. Running some basic tests would not be a problem but as far as transient testing it, I'm not really sure of the proper setup. As I mentioned, I really don't know if you could get the GDT to turn on or even if it presents a path through the touch pad. A human is not a dead short so I am not sure how I could determine what could happen.
Attached is the test I would like to see ran but with a real combo generator on the line, not my little low energy ones. I would suggest checking the other modes as well. IMO, it's one thing to say its safe but if you really believe it, there should be no problems with Mr. Smitth volunteering to make this video for Fluke.
Assuming that's never going to happen, what's people's thoughts on how to test it?
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An example typical circuit model of the human body:
http://www.industrial-electronics.com/elec-safety_5.html (http://www.industrial-electronics.com/elec-safety_5.html)
There are also numerous papers on this subject which might be interesting for someone to delve into...
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My company requires me to be gloved up on any ac voltage above 25V or I stand a good chance of being fired. I am not in any danger of arc flash, just electrocution. Anybody in their right mind working on 480V is going to have 600V rated rubber gloves with leather protectors on over them plus other required PPE while with in the arc flash boundary. Really, how do they expect anyone in the trade to use this meter ?
My take on the current state of affairs with fluke is this: When Fluke first began & their only business was electrical measurement instruments they were highly motivated to design & build the best. Now that they belong to a larger diversified company with some bean counter in charge, they don't care about protecting their name. Same story with Westinghouse, when it started the engineers were in charge, then bit by bit the bean counters took over & the company went into ash heap of history.
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AvE is a retard. At least half of what he says is flat out wrong. He's really good at seeming to know what he's talking about, but he really doesn't.
Easy to call a man a "retard" behind his back (what a charming line in talk you have), much tougher to actually support your casually flung out assertions. I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is. Pick a random, non-electronics video of his, and come back with the list of what he got right and what he got wrong. You hit less than 50% "flat out wrong", say you haven't got the time, say the dog ate your homework, or deliberately pick a video where the subject matter is obviously just opinion and you get to eat crow. No sauce, no bread, no potatoes, just neat roast crow, feathers optional.
Isn't he the guy that did a video about having to machine out a collet nut because it was machined so badly that it wasn't even close to concentric, and spent a bunch of time shitting on terrible Chinese manufacturing quality, when the problem all along was that he didn't know the collet nut was *supposed* to be machined like that to retain the collet in the nut?
It really made me wonder how many other topics he goes off on without knowing what he's talking about. I've recalled other times when he's made comments about something being done wrongly or being badly engineered and he was just wrong. I am not going to go back and watch all his videos and make a list of those times to satisfy your objections, though. One other time that sticks out in my mind was when the guy from NYC CNC sent him some stuff and he spent a whole video shitting on the thing. He was talking about binning fasteners and about the design of the part. He was completely wrong about many of his objections to the part and just flat out had no idea what he was talking about - yet gave an "expert opinion" on the device without knowing the first thing about the subject matter.
He knows a lot about some things (hydraulics and heavy machinery, it seems), and a little about some things (electronics), but he's far, far, far from an expert or even an informed layman on many of the topics he chooses to speak about. Machining, engineering and design are three of those topics.
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AvE is a retard. At least half of what he says is flat out wrong. He's really good at seeming to know what he's talking about, but he really doesn't.
Easy to call a man a "retard" behind his back (what a charming line in talk you have), much tougher to actually support your casually flung out assertions. I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is. Pick a random, non-electronics video of his, and come back with the list of what he got right and what he got wrong. You hit less than 50% "flat out wrong", say you haven't got the time, say the dog ate your homework, or deliberately pick a video where the subject matter is obviously just opinion and you get to eat crow. No sauce, no bread, no potatoes, just neat roast crow, feathers optional.
Isn't he the guy that did a video about having to machine out a collet nut because it was machined so badly that it wasn't even close to concentric, and spent a bunch of time shitting on terrible Chinese manufacturing quality, when the problem all along was that he didn't know the collet nut was *supposed* to be machined like that to retain the collet in the nut?
It really made me wonder how many other topics he goes off on without knowing what he's talking about. I've recalled other times when he's made comments about something being done wrongly or being badly engineered and he was just wrong. I am not going to go back and watch all his videos and make a list of those times to satisfy your objections, though. One other time that sticks out in my mind was when the guy from NYC CNC sent him some stuff and he spent a whole video shitting on the thing. He was talking about binning fasteners and about the design of the part. He was completely wrong about many of his objections to the part and just flat out had no idea what he was talking about - yet gave an "expert opinion" on the device without knowing the first thing about the subject matter.
He knows a lot about some things (hydraulics and heavy machinery, it seems), and a little about some things (electronics), but he's far, far, far from an expert or even an informed layman on many of the topics he chooses to speak about. Machining, engineering and design are three of those topics.
I'm not here to be AvE's apologist. It's one thing to say "he gets some stuff wrong", it's quite another to call him a "retard" etc. What I will say for him, is that when he gets things wrong and someone points it out, he put his hands up to it and corrects himself in the next video, like a grown man should. Many a keyboard warrior could learn from that example. Remember, he calls himself "Uncle Bumblefuck" and never sets out his stall as the knower of everything - indeed it's quite common to hear him say that he doesn't know something, that you "shouldn't take my word for it". At the end of the day he does it, to quote him, "for shits and giggles" and doubtless would be a more comfortable and more entertaining companion, either down the pub, or on the job, than many of his detractors.
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My curiousity got the better of me. I had to see this thing for myself. This is my first Youtube video, but I think it will show how a bit more clearly how the FieldSense works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frjoyQHqCN4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frjoyQHqCN4)
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Thanks for the post but I am still wanting more info. I saw another video but be still did not measure the resistance of it and would not pull it apart. >500Meg seems like no problem but not sure about this 0.002 uF. Is the cover water tight? If not, how do you dry and clean it? I would really like to see some high voltage across that section and measure that cover with an electrometer. Is it really just capacitively coupled as you later stated?
Can capacitors be used as an isolation devices per CE?
https://youtu.be/uPNvw1xR-I0
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Thanks for the post but I am still wanting more info. I saw another video but be still did not measure the resistance of it and would not pull it apart. >500Meg seems like no problem but not sure about this 0.002 uF. Is the cover water tight? If not, how do you dry and clean it? I would really like to see some high voltage across that section and measure that cover with an electrometer. Is it really just capacitively coupled as you later stated?
Can capacitors be used as an isolation devices per CE?
It doesn't look watertight at all. No gaskets. And I don't see an IP rating.
I'm sorry I don't have the necessary equipment to do high voltage testing. I probably should have said it "appears" to be capacitively coupled, since I don't know for sure. And since I intend to use this one, I'm not wild about a destructive teardown either.
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Thanks for the post but I am still wanting more info. I saw another video but be still did not measure the resistance of it and would not pull it apart. >500Meg seems like no problem but not sure about this 0.002 uF. Is the cover water tight? If not, how do you dry and clean it? I would really like to see some high voltage across that section and measure that cover with an electrometer. Is it really just capacitively coupled as you later stated?
Can capacitors be used as an isolation devices per CE?
It doesn't look watertight at all. No gaskets. And I don't see an IP rating.
I'm sorry I don't have the necessary equipment to do high voltage testing. I probably should have said it "appears" to be capacitively coupled, since I don't know for sure. And since I intend to use this one, I'm not wild about a destructive teardown either.
I fully understand not wanting to damage it. If it really is not sealed and there is no way to clean/dry, it is concerning. How would an electrician ever know if the unit had a problem or not?
Could you please take the time to trace out the front end? I am really interested in seeing how the clamp works.
Let's assume for not that it is purely capacitively coupled. 2.31 - 0.086, say 2.2nF. At 60Hz, Xc is 1.2M but the transients are much faster with sub 2us edges. At 100KHz, Xc is now less than 800 ohms. If the clamp can be engaged we are say 1.3K for the PTC and 1K for the resistor and if we can get the GDT to fire, 0 ohms.
Even with a basic general model of a human, I am not sure what it would take to kill someone with a short pulse. Will the capacitor degrade over time (start to leak) where even low frequency use becomes a problem?
I get the meters are brand new on the bench and in normal use would seem safe but I am no safety buff. Water, age, lack of a way to test it, lack of a way to inspect it, what levels to the parts break down, are the parts certified, all would seem to play a part of it.
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Does DJ need to waste time on this Fluke FLOP? If anything, it will attract Fluke fanboy pretend trolls and a negative vibe come battleground in the Youtube comments :blah: :rant:
and perhaps more BS from YT on his channel. Tread carefully Sir! :scared:
Well I turned down a review unit back in November because it's an electrical tool, and well, I'm not into electrical, it doesn't really interest me much.
But now that there is this poo storm about it and so many people asking me to take a look and see if it's all true, I guess I have too ::)
Anyway, I just checked and I have one waiting at Fluke HQ just around the corner any day I want to pick it up.
But therein lies the first problem, and has been hinted at in a comment thread I made on the latest AvE video. I think that if a say a single positive thing about this meter I'll be branded a "sell out" and a corporate shill :blah:
I suspect if it is half decent (I honestly don't expect it to be magically good in operational terms) and I can prove so, it won't matter to the AvE faithful. The same AvE faithful the EEVblog forum members voted a resounding no to including on this forum when AvE asked if he could use a section here as his official forum >:D
Then on the other hand as you said, the Fluke fanboys will jump in from the other side.
Probably an unwinnable video even if I add zero personal opinion of my own.
Even if I forked out $380 of my own money for it, I'll still cop the flack either way, so might as well take Fluke's freebie and then bin it? :-//
Give me a voltage probe stick, non contact buzzer, TRMS multimeter and -closing jaws- TRMS clamp meter any day to get the job done quick,
...and they're not that heavy to cart around guys
Yep, horses for courses.
The big jaw on this looks fairly impractical for simple non-contact voltage detection.
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Isn't he the guy that did a video about having to machine out a collet nut because it was machined so badly that it wasn't even close to concentric, and spent a bunch of time shitting on terrible Chinese manufacturing quality, when the problem all along was that he didn't know the collet nut was *supposed* to be machined like that to retain the collet in the nut?
It really made me wonder how many other topics he goes off on without knowing what he's talking about. I've recalled other times when he's made comments about something being done wrongly or being badly engineered and he was just wrong. I am not going to go back and watch all his videos and make a list of those times to satisfy your objections, though. One other time that sticks out in my mind was when the guy from NYC CNC sent him some stuff and he spent a whole video shitting on the thing. He was talking about binning fasteners and about the design of the part. He was completely wrong about many of his objections to the part and just flat out had no idea what he was talking about - yet gave an "expert opinion" on the device without knowing the first thing about the subject matter.
He knows a lot about some things (hydraulics and heavy machinery, it seems), and a little about some things (electronics), but he's far, far, far from an expert or even an informed layman on many of the topics he chooses to speak about. Machining, engineering and design are three of those topics.
You may be thinking of ChuckE2009.
I have to say I'm growing a bit tired of every Youtuber having a group of naysayers because people occasionally get things wrong. Anyone who does anything technical seems to be suffering from them. I always wonder how many times these people are wrong in their own endeavours and professional life. It's easy to fool yourself if you don't have an audience of hundreds of thousands and your every move isn't recorded.
Of course, I don't doubt Youtubers regularly being wrong. Many of the ones I appreciate regularly feature this in later videos.
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Well I turned down a review unit back in November because it's electrical tool, and well, I'm not into electrical, its doesn't interest me.
But now that there is this poo storm about it and so many people asking me to take a look and see if it's all true, I guess I have too ::)
Anyway, I just checked and I have one waiting at Fluke HQ just around the corner any day I want to pick it up.
But therein lies the first problem, and has been hinted at in a comment thread I made on the latest AvE video. I think that if a say a single positive thing about this meter I'll be branded a "sell out" and a corporate shill :blah:
I suspect if it is half decent (I honestly don't expect it to be magically good in operational terms) and I can prove so, it won't matter to the AvE faithful. The same AvE faithful the EEVblog forum members voted a resounding no to including on this forum when AvE asked if he could use a section here as his official forum.
Then on the other hand as you said, the Fluke fanboys will jump in from the other side.
Probably an unwinnable video even if I add zero personal opinion of my own.
Even if I forked out $380 of my own money for it, I'll still cop the flack either way, so might as well take Fluke's freebie and then bin it? :-//
Yep, horses for courses.
The big jaw on this looks fairly impractical for simple non-contact voltage detection.
Internet wisdom tells us that "haters gonna hate". I say they can stick your freebie Fluke where the sun doesn't shine. Idiots shouldn't dictate the discussion, there's plenty to learn for more reasonable folks.
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I have to say I'm growing a bit tired of every Youtuber having a group of naysayers because people occasionally get things wrong. Anyone who does anything technical seems to be suffering from them.
And it gets worse the larger your audience gets. The more numbers making up your bell curve, the more outliers you get.
AvE isn't immune to that either, even being famously anti-corporate advertising and is funded entirely by "the people". You can't stop the tall poppy syndrome.
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I fully understand not wanting to damage it. If it really is not sealed and there is no way to clean/dry, it is concerning. How would an electrician ever know if the unit had a problem or not?
If there's anything sensitive to moisture in there, hopefully it's potted? BTW, I just noticed that the "battery door" is a user-replaceable part (PN 4944370). Hmmm... there may yet be an opportunity for a semi-destructive tear-down.
Could you please take the time to trace out the front end? I am really interested in seeing how the clamp works.
I have some busy days coming up this week, but I'll see what I can do. I worked late last night making the video, since I had no idea what I was doing either with the video editor or Youtube. I have a healthy respect for people who make regular video content, it isn't easy.
Let's assume for not that it is purely capacitively coupled. 2.31 - 0.086, say 2.2nF. At 60Hz, Xc is 1.2M but the transients are much faster with sub 2us edges. At 100KHz, Xc is now less than 800 ohms. If the clamp can be engaged we are say 1.3K for the PTC and 1K for the resistor and if we can get the GDT to fire, 0 ohms.
Going by the 104Vac reading with a 10Meg DMM, that works out to 1.6Meg left for the T6. Same ballpark. So in the worst case, T6 set to Ohms, finger on ground contact, can you connect something to the red probe that would cause the GDT to fire, with this "battery door" component in series? Interesting question.
To be honest, we're not too far from the old neon screwdriver here.
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There are some issues with the T6 from a sparkie's perspective. You want a reliable tool, not a finicky one. Grounding is a problem when you wear shoes with nice thick rubber soles (safety foot wear). The fieldsense technology is presumably HiZ and can't be switched to LowZ to deal with ghost voltages. Have you ever seen a typical mains distribution panel or a small junction box? There's no space to use the fieldsense feature. The T6 seems to be a completely useless tool for a sparky.
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Well I turned down a review unit back in November because it's an electrical tool, and well, I'm not into electrical, it doesn't really interest me much.
But now that there is this poo storm about it and so many people asking me to take a look and see if it's all true, I guess I have too ::)
Anyway, I just checked and I have one waiting at Fluke HQ just around the corner any day I want to pick it up.
But therein lies the first problem, and has been hinted at in a comment thread I made on the latest AvE video. I think that if a say a single positive thing about this meter I'll be branded a "sell out" and a corporate shill :blah:
I suspect if it is half decent (I honestly don't expect it to be magically good in operational terms) and I can prove so, it won't matter to the AvE faithful. The same AvE faithful the EEVblog forum members voted a resounding no to including on this forum when AvE asked if he could use a section here as his official forum >:D
Then on the other hand as you said, the Fluke fanboys will jump in from the other side.
Probably an unwinnable video even if I add zero personal opinion of my own.
Perhaps but you are leaving the people out who might have a serious interest in this device and at the same time give jack sh*t about some forum fanboys.
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Isn't he the guy that did a video about having to machine out a collet nut because it was machined so badly that it wasn't even close to concentric, and spent a bunch of time shitting on terrible Chinese manufacturing quality, when the problem all along was that he didn't know the collet nut was *supposed* to be machined like that to retain the collet in the nut?
It really made me wonder how many other topics he goes off on without knowing what he's talking about. I've recalled other times when he's made comments about something being done wrongly or being badly engineered and he was just wrong. I am not going to go back and watch all his videos and make a list of those times to satisfy your objections, though. One other time that sticks out in my mind was when the guy from NYC CNC sent him some stuff and he spent a whole video shitting on the thing. He was talking about binning fasteners and about the design of the part. He was completely wrong about many of his objections to the part and just flat out had no idea what he was talking about - yet gave an "expert opinion" on the device without knowing the first thing about the subject matter.
He knows a lot about some things (hydraulics and heavy machinery, it seems), and a little about some things (electronics), but he's far, far, far from an expert or even an informed layman on many of the topics he chooses to speak about. Machining, engineering and design are three of those topics.
You may be thinking of ChuckE2009.
I have to say I'm growing a bit tired of every Youtuber having a group of naysayers because people occasionally get things wrong. Anyone who does anything technical seems to be suffering from them. I always wonder how many times these people are wrong in their own endeavours and professional life. It's easy to fool yourself if you don't have an audience of hundreds of thousands and your every move isn't recorded.
Of course, I don't doubt Youtubers regularly being wrong. Many of the ones I appreciate regularly feature this in later videos.
chuckee is in texas or something and he has to deal with contractors and texas people I am surprised he is still sane
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All AvE got "wrong" was strongly insinuating the meter being dangerous because you would touch mains voltage - which is not necessarily the case - as long as the path has a sufficiently large resistance. He should have spent the 10 seconds required to do a current measurement to earth.
AvE went in assuming the FieldSense function was a lot more useful than it actually is, and that clearly annoyed him. i.e. the wire measured has to touch the lip and be properly aligned. He clearly interpreted the marking on the meter to be a crosshair, intuitively you'd put the wire at the center.
I would almost bet the insulation thickness alone on industrial wires are too thick to work? Also, why is the meter showing "No earth ground connection" when that's clearly not the problem? I think that got AvE confused as well.
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Whatever some may think of AvE's Youtube style, this T6 magic wand should have worked for him out of the box as advertised,
and any caveats in BOLD included in the instructions.
AvE is no rank amateur/newb and is a confessed satisfied Fluke owner/user. :-DMM
It should have worked for him without having to resort to frustration, troubleshooting, doubt, foul language (justified) |O then hitting on the internet to suss out corporate agenda/dumbassery and the marketing BS that usually goes with it
This product deserves an 'Unroadworthy' sticker slapped on it, till Fluke staff actually TEST it in real world conditions, and either scrap it
or FIX IT so the customer gets a tool that works as it should
Expecting Fluke's OneHungLow branch to do it for them on top of the 'just make it, don't ask questions...' magic MIC production price is not going to happen any time soon,
OHL has to eat, sleep and turn a nano profit occasionally... :-[
EEVblog members should not get herded into doing Fluke's homework for them, be it for prestige or whatever
unless BIG R+D and Royalty dollars are being offered :horse:
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@ ModemHead, great video mate, and no music, yay! :clap:
You did all the tests I would have done, and fwiw that Agilent performs well to keep up with a 189
Did you try shining a bright light on the plastic cover to see what the go is on the metal track from the springy thingy?
Is there a capacitor there or capacitance from two flaps of copper and insulator, and or a higher value resistor?
Insulation tester at 50, 100 or 250 VDC (usually 1 to 4 mA DC output) may show something too in the 500+ to Gigohm x? region
Don't lose that purchase receipt :scared:
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re video "Fluke T6-600: NOT DANGEROUS"
I call BS on that, the device 'may' not be dangerous (unless mistaken for a banana),
but it's intermittent operation and misleading readings may kiddie walk the user into DANGEROUS lethal voltages
It is supposed to be a go/ no go reliable test instrument not a prima-donna performer :palm:
Don't lose that purchase receipt :scared:
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FWIW, none of the Youtubers so far have used a Low-Z multimeter to confirm any real or ghost voltages
More than likely they will trip their GFCI/RCD doing it, so watch out for that.
---------------
My FWIW IMHO conclusion:
T6 is yet another 'open jaw' FAIL product, the 'target range' is a joke and impractical in real world use
dump the thought of blowing money on this overpriced dud 'NONSENSE' meter and get a proper proven 'closed jaw' clamp meter, Fluke brand or decent competitor, and get on with it :-/O
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I fully understand not wanting to damage it. If it really is not sealed and there is no way to clean/dry, it is concerning. How would an electrician ever know if the unit had a problem or not?
If there's anything sensitive to moisture in there, hopefully it's potted? BTW, I just noticed that the "battery door" is a user-replaceable part (PN 4944370). Hmmm... there may yet be an opportunity for a semi-destructive tear-down.
Parts are on order. I went with the lower end model shown. So no need to waste your time reverse engineering the front or risk damaging yours.
I have some busy days coming up this week, but I'll see what I can do. I worked late last night making the video, since I had no idea what I was doing either with the video editor or Youtube. I have a healthy respect for people who make regular video content, it isn't easy.
Your a natural. Maybe we will see more ModemHead videos in the future.
To be honest, we're not too far from the old neon screwdriver here.
Well, let's hope it's not that bad.
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Parts are on order. I went with the lower end model shown. So no need to waste your time reverse engineering the front or risk damaging yours.
I look forward to your analysis! I will however try to make some hi-res teardown photos for everyone to see.
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@ modemhead, I just watched your video and followed the link here. Thanks for posting it, it has shed some more light on how the device is operating.
I am getting more curious about its functionality, so I too will look forward to more posts on this and it will save me going out and buying one myself, although I may end up getting one to see how it works with the PRV240FS proving unit I already have.
Kind regards
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Here are some selected teardown photos of the device in question. The full series can be seen here (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/gallery/fluke-t6-600/). A zip archive (42MB) of the original-size high-res photos available here (http://mrmodemhead.com/share/pics/Fluke_T6-600_teardown.zip).
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@ modemhead, I just watched your video and followed the link here. Thanks for posting it, it has shed some more light on how the device is operating.
Great, that was the intent.
I am getting more curious about its functionality, so I too will look forward to more posts on this and it will save me going out and buying one myself, although I may end up getting one to see how it works with the PRV240FS proving unit I already have.
As far as the contactless voltage sensing goes, it seems to work, but it needs ideal conditions (single conductors, easy access, no rat's nests, and some kind of ground.) I'm not an electrician so I can't say if that would be useful or not. But I definitely wouldn't use it for proving.
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Did you try shining a bright light on the plastic cover to see what the go is on the metal track from the springy thingy?
Can't see a thing.
Is there a capacitor there or capacitance from two flaps of copper and insulator, and or a higher value resistor?
I suddenly remembered I have an LCR meter. It shows 2.2nF at 100Hz, but only 240pF at 1kHz, so there's probably more than just a capacitor in there.
Don't lose that purchase receipt :scared:
I maintain some properties and expect to find it quite useful as a plain old electrical tester. The contactless voltage sensing is more of an engineering curiosity.
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Are those vias OSP rather than gold plated?
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Are those vias OSP rather than gold plated?
I don't know, how can I tell?
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Are those vias OSP rather than gold plated?
I don't know, how can I tell?
Typically by the colour. They look rather pinkish, which suggests bare copper (under a clear coating). My experience is that OSP coatings fail after a year or two and the copper gets eaten rapidly.
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Are those vias OSP rather than gold plated?
I don't know, how can I tell?
Typically by the colour. They look rather pinkish, which suggests bare copper (under a clear coating). My experience is that OSP coatings fail after a year or two and the copper gets eaten rapidly.
Probably OSP then. The vias look copper-colored. Only the test points and contact areas have a gold color.
I have repaired a number of Fluke meters in which I found vias completely eroded away, without an apparent reason.
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I suddenly remembered I have an LCR meter. It shows 2.2nF at 100Hz, but only 240pF at 1kHz, so there's probably more than just a capacitor in there.
..............
The contactless voltage sensing is more of an engineering curiosity.
What does your LCR show for ESR at 100Hz? At 1KHz? I will more than likely open it up at some point.
If it did not have non-contact voltage sensing, I would not look at it. That's really the only thing about this meter I am interested in.
Maybe this weekend I will set aside some time to start looking at it.
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Isn't he the guy that did a video about having to machine out a collet nut because it was machined so badly that it wasn't even close to concentric, and spent a bunch of time shitting on terrible Chinese manufacturing quality, when the problem all along was that he didn't know the collet nut was *supposed* to be machined like that to retain the collet in the nut?
It really made me wonder how many other topics he goes off on without knowing what he's talking about. I've recalled other times when he's made comments about something being done wrongly or being badly engineered and he was just wrong. I am not going to go back and watch all his videos and make a list of those times to satisfy your objections, though. One other time that sticks out in my mind was when the guy from NYC CNC sent him some stuff and he spent a whole video shitting on the thing. He was talking about binning fasteners and about the design of the part. He was completely wrong about many of his objections to the part and just flat out had no idea what he was talking about - yet gave an "expert opinion" on the device without knowing the first thing about the subject matter.
He knows a lot about some things (hydraulics and heavy machinery, it seems), and a little about some things (electronics), but he's far, far, far from an expert or even an informed layman on many of the topics he chooses to speak about. Machining, engineering and design are three of those topics.
You may be thinking of ChuckE2009.
It was AVE with the ER collet.
He got it wrong and one of the top comments was a correction to that, which he responded to acknowledging.
He had some recommendations for the NYC CNC power drawbar, and overall said it was a good design.
So its a total non issue.
You don't watch ave for reliable machining or electrical design advice, you'd watch nyc cnc or another actual industry expert.
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Will it work wearing insulated gloves with leather protectors ?
Can you try it wearing gloves ?
Even just, nitrile &/or leather gloves...
Thanks
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What does your LCR show for ESR at 100Hz? At 1KHz?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-fieldsense-contactless-voltmeter/?action=dlattach;attach=421246;image)
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Will it work wearing insulated gloves with leather protectors ?
Only by touching a hard ground with the black probe.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-fieldsense-contactless-voltmeter/?action=dlattach;attach=421255;image)
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What does your LCR show for ESR at 100Hz? At 1KHz?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-fieldsense-contactless-voltmeter/?action=dlattach;attach=421246;image)
Thanks for checking. Looks like an RC which would make a lot more sense. I really wonder from CE's point of view if a network like this can be used for isolation or if they consider it a direct connection to the line. It seems it would had to have been evaluated independently but if it really is not sealed, I don't see how it would have made it through. It seems like there is something in the standards about surfaces that the human can come in contact with. I'll spend some time reading them before going too deep down this rabbit hole.
I assume it falls under a current limit device.
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Will it work wearing insulated gloves with leather protectors ?
Only by touching a hard ground with the black probe.
I don't see that as a big problem, you're supposed to know procedures if you're going near anything dangerous.
This is still much safer than using a traditional meter and anything that increases safety is a good thing.
Question is: Does it work?
(I'm guessing it does, Fluke's reputation is on the line if they mess this one up)
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Even if I forked out $380 of my own money for it, I'll still cop the flack either way, so might as well take Fluke's freebie and then bin it? :-//
Damn the naysayers. You're interested in the new tech, not the meter/manufacturer.
Pick up the freebie, make a video about it, tell the truth.
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re "...Fluke's reputation is on the line if they mess this one up"
Unlikely... they'll sell them off cheap asap, or toss one in for free with an 87V purchase, or flog a 117/T6 combo cheap so no one complains
then do a bit more homework to get the T7 going, fitted with OLED display eye candy, and a ~s e x y~ rubber curve or two to pull back the hesitant tradies ;D
or they can go the easy route and supply head-scratching T6 owners :-// with a free piece of foam to push down and keep the wire in the 'magic jaws' sweet spot :-*
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A few more videos showing it in use.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StINhpJjU_0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StINhpJjU_0)
https://youtu.be/wFPDORq3erQ (https://youtu.be/wFPDORq3erQ)
John Ward talks about making sure the power is off....
https://youtu.be/-qh28sHs7XA (https://youtu.be/-qh28sHs7XA)
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Parts arrived. I have a few things that I need to finish up before getting started. Keep in mind that once I run it, I doubt I will buy another to run more tests with. So if you have questions or specific tests you want to see ran on it, you have a few more days.
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Mike's Tool Shed ripped the cover off the magic battery door. The most visible thing is a daisy chain of five components, possibly resistors.
The reveal starts at 8:50.
https://youtu.be/vJ2gxoY9RUU?t=530 (https://youtu.be/vJ2gxoY9RUU?t=530)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-fieldsense-contactless-voltmeter/?action=dlattach;attach=422878;image)
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Excellent! It appears well sealed. I think with that bit of info, maybe I can just try some less destructive tests on mine. ... Like that will ever happen...
It was worth the time to watch the whole video. I wish he had measured that sticker.
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Thanks to "Mike's Tool Shed" :clap: for the quick... -TEAR- down ?! :o
Too bad he didn't have a hair dryer handy to pry the sticker off slowly, and stand a chance of putting the sucker back
Putting those components in sticker form on the back of the tester is a no no, what were they smoking at Fluke HQ ? ???
Didn't the designers think about the product rolling around in the tool box rubbing up against sharp ended tools,
left out in a hot sun in between tests and softening the silly sticker thingie, hot+cold weather shrinkage and slippage,
kids, cat or dog or unpaid starving tradie munching on it > kiss the series component chain goodbye or worse still... intermittent operation |O
the glue going weird and reacting with the silly chain of components,
battery leakage issues...
plus a zillion other 'won't happen but will' Murphy Powered scenarios I won't bore members with
i.e. all that 'breakable' stuff should be inside the meter and only the metal button exposed, with a small shutter to sheath it if you don't want to use it***
Some fat Royalty cheques*** would be most welcome at this point 8)
Anyway, I can foresee a LOT of dummies will inadvertantly use this Tee 6 as a go / no go tester come 'prove dead' device and set themselves up for a good zapping :scared:
AvE may have got the meter usage 'confused' perhaps, but his conclusion of 'dangerous' and 'pos' still holds :-+
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@electro detective,
Surely any item of electrical test apparatus that is damaged, mistreated or used incorrectly becomes unsafe, so why should the T6 be any different?
The same goes for absence of voltage checks, if they are carried out in an inappropriate manner, then it can give rise to danger irrespective of the apparatus used for the procedure.
The T6 isn't any different, it is just another tool that can be used to aid with testing, and there are loss of combined neutral/earth faults when a capacitive non-contact tester will detect live voltages that a two probe test would not detect.
Kind regards
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@electro detective,
Surely any item of electrical test apparatus that is damaged, mistreated or used incorrectly becomes unsafe, so why should the T6 be any different?
The same goes for absence of voltage checks, if they are carried out in an inappropriate manner, then it can give rise to danger irrespective of the apparatus used for the procedure.
The T6 isn't any different, it is just another tool that can be used to aid with testing, and there are loss of combined neutral/earth faults when a capacitive non-contact tester will detect live voltages that a two probe test would not detect.
Kind regards
Many of us know that and act accordingly with test gear,
but the average prodder in a hurry to get the check routine out of the way will rely on a 'Fluke' product and may/will cop a nice surprise
Housing components in a sticker on the back of a professional CAT testing unit with a fragile ribbon is a no no
Ribbons operate ok inside closed jaw meters to mate the jaw output to the electronics, but I wouldn't trust one inside a sticker on a tool that will get a lot of use and abuse and gripped with gloves like a baton
FWIW, A decent contactless voltage stick, a 'prove dead' Duspol, and optional closed jaw clamp meter and DMM will ensure that bad hair days and visits to the morgue will happen a lot less,
than relying just on a T6 and fiddling about with the conductor sweet spot > (_?_) < roulette table style... :horse:
If you're in the lab or mancave with time on your hands rooting about, and like a bit of a readings punt/gamble, and not working alone,
hey, a T6 may fit the bill
Which brings the question, how well and reliably will the T6 read live voltage as compared to a non contact cheapie on a earth/neutral failure or reversal wired DIYer dumbassery?
Come on, it's looking more like an overpriced beta toy some R+D millennial hipsters :-DMM :-DMM :palm: whipped up in a hurry to impress the Fluke bean counters ::)
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@electro detective,
Surely any item of electrical test apparatus that is damaged, mistreated or used incorrectly becomes unsafe, so why should the T6 be any different?
Equipment should be designed such that forseeable damage does not make it unsafe.
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Which brings the question, how well and reliably will the T6 read live voltage as compared to a non contact cheapie on a earth/neutral failure or reversal wired DIYer dumbassery
Ditto. Its priced as a pro tool, but the contact free looks pretty dicky. I'm not guessing on circuits with high fault currents. I'm not pulling on conductors to hit the sweet spot either.
Would trust as much as the fluke 2AC. Quick check tool that shouldn't be relied on, but a quick sanity check when you think its all dead or if its live at a glance when troubleshooting. Whats the 2AC cost? How picky is it in comparison?
Typically I know what voltage I'm looking for when using these non-contact devices. Its a quick yes / no, not is the voltage within +/- 10%.
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And arc flash safety is becoming a real thing.
In the US OSHA requires suiting up on live gear and the fault limits are pretty low. Open live gear is suit up time on all but the smallest stuff, non-contact or bareback. If your going to suit up for live measurements, are you really going to piss around with this thing?? Does it become a game of how long can we stretch out one measurement?
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Many of us know that and act accordingly with test gear,
but the average prodder in a hurry to get the check routine out of the way will rely on a 'Fluke' product and may/will cop a nice surprise
Housing components in a sticker on the back of a professional CAT testing unit with a fragile ribbon is a no no
Ribbons operate ok inside closed jaw meters to mate the jaw output to the electronics, but I wouldn't trust one inside a sticker on a tool that will get a lot of use and abuse and gripped with gloves like a baton
FWIW, A decent contactless voltage stick, a 'prove dead' Duspol, and optional closed jaw clamp meter and DMM will ensure that bad hair days and visits to the morgue will happen a lot less,
than relying just on a T6 and fiddling about with the conductor sweet spot > (_?_) < roulette table style... :horse:
If you're in the lab or mancave with time on your hands rooting about, and like a bit of a readings punt/gamble, and not working alone,
hey, a T6 may fit the bill
Which brings the question, how well and reliably will the T6 read live voltage as compared to a non contact cheapie on a earth/neutral failure or reversal wired DIYer dumbassery?
Come on, it's looking more like an overpriced beta toy some R+D millennial hipsters :-DMM :-DMM :palm: whipped up in a hurry to impress the Fluke bean counters ::)
Well yes, someone may well use the T6 as a shortcut for an absence of voltage test, but electricians know that non-contact testing should only be used as a supplement for 2 pole testing when checking for absence of voltage - so whose fault it is, if they use the T6 in this manner? Fluke for creating and manufacturing it, or the electrician concerned for not following appropriate procedures.
I have watched a number of the videos from different sources about the T6 now, yes some people seem to be struggling with its use. Other seems to get on with it ok. As far as Fluke go, I haven't seen them promote the T6 for testing for dead.
They do make a proving unit for it, I got one to play with a while back to see if I could test non-contact sticks with it. It did work ok, but it flattened the battery pack in around 5 weeks as it switches down to a 4mA current draw when not in use. I found this out after a weeks holiday when I came back to use it and it wouldn't work, I didn't carry on with my job. I stopped, found out what was wrong with the proving unit and fixed it before proceeding.
At the end of the day, it is the choice of the sparks working as to how they work on the apparatus and carry out the tests.
Is the T6 a gimmick? you could well be right, but quite often new technology starts out a expensive and gimmicky, but bringing it to market either improves it or kills it off. I guess time will tell which one it will be.
Kind regards
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@electro detective,
Surely any item of electrical test apparatus that is damaged, mistreated or used incorrectly becomes unsafe, so why should the T6 be any different?
Equipment should be designed such that forseeable damage does not make it unsafe.
It is, Fluke will sell you a case to protect the meter, all be it at an extra cost. We all know that electronic testers can be damaged if we choose to chuck them into our toolboxes with all the spanners, screwdrivers and other goodies. Our choice.
I doubt that label on the back is any more susceptible to damage than the leads are themselves.
You may well have an argument in that people may not realise the significance of damage to the label, but then again Fluke do sell a proving unit for it. At an extra cost of course.
Kind regards
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Which brings the question, how well and reliably will the T6 read live voltage as compared to a non contact cheapie on a earth/neutral failure or reversal wired DIYer dumbassery
Ditto. Its priced as a pro tool, but the contact free looks pretty dicky. I'm not guessing on circuits with high fault currents. I'm not pulling on conductors to hit the sweet spot either.
Would trust as much as the fluke 2AC. Quick check tool that shouldn't be relied on, but a quick sanity check when you think its all dead or if its live at a glance when troubleshooting. Whats the 2AC cost? How picky is it in comparison?
Typically I know what voltage I'm looking for when using these non-contact devices. Its a quick yes / no, not is the voltage within +/- 10%.
I understand where you are coming from. I too am not to worried about specific voltage values and use an LED voltage tester for initial tests. Other sparks I have known would prefer to see actual numbers. Each to their own.
Some seem to have more success with the T6 than others, I haven't used one myself, so I cannot say. I have a fairly limited experience on electrics so I couldn't say whether the device is useful or not, it might be to some for certain applications. Personally, I can't think of any where I wouldn't be able to get to the contacts and use a DMM to get better accuracy.
Kind regards
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Personally, I can't think of any where I wouldn't be able to get to the contacts and use a DMM to get better accuracy.
I think the idea is to avoid getting to the contacts.
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Mike's Tool Shed ripped the cover off the magic battery door. The most visible thing is a daisy chain of five components, possibly resistors.
The reveal starts at 8:50.
https://youtu.be/vJ2gxoY9RUU?t=530 (https://youtu.be/vJ2gxoY9RUU?t=530)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-fieldsense-contactless-voltmeter/?action=dlattach;attach=422878;image)
That could be multiple caps in series. I wouldn't expect a membrane cap like that to be particularly high voltage, so series makes sense from a voltage rating and redundancy viewpoint.
They have even routed out a slot to prevent creepage breakdown.
Regardless of how crappy anyone thinks the idea is in practice, a lot of thought has gone into the design of this bit.
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Mike's Tool Shed ripped the cover off the magic battery door. The most visible thing is a daisy chain of five components, possibly resistors.
The reveal starts at 8:50.
...
That could be multiple caps in series. I wouldn't expect a membrane cap like that to be particularly high voltage, so series makes sense from a voltage rating and redundancy viewpoint.
They have even routed out a slot to prevent creepage breakdown.
Regardless of how crappy anyone thinks the idea is in practice, a lot of thought has gone into the design of this bit.
I suspect the slots for the plastic are to protect that contact surface from mechanical damage more than anything.
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I am overly concerned with the performance of the T6, since it is a first generation device of this type. How many generations of refinement are in our modern instruments ? From using a compass to detect an electric current to the Flukes 289. Over a hundred years of improvements have driven the development of our modern instruments.
Is the T6 perfect ? No.
The next generation of field sense will be better.
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Presumably you meant:
I am not overly concerned with the performance of the T6, since it is a first generation device of this type.
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Thanks for the videos Joe. Looks like the contact free works better than shown in other videos. Fairly impressed with the low voltage accuracy.
Still think its a bit of a novelty. Personally, I'm not putting myself in the measurement circuit with direct contact on the other end on anything with high fault currents. I have also seen what can happen moving conductors near terminations.
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Thanks Cerebus, you can almost read my mind as well as the wife can !
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Thanks for the videos Joe. Looks like the contact free works better than shown in other videos. Fairly impressed with the low voltage accuracy.
Still think its a bit of a novelty. Personally, I'm not putting myself in the measurement circuit with direct contact on the other end on anything with high fault currents. I have also seen what can happen moving conductors near terminations.
No problem. Glad I could help out.
I don't think any electricians training would allow them to work without proper PPE for the environment they are working in.
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I don't think any electricians training would allow them to work without proper PPE for the environment they are working in.
Then you'd be horrified by the average jobbing electrician who only works on 'low' voltage ('low' here in the peculiar electrical supply sense of below 1000V). I've worked on-site with a lot of them and the most PPE I've seen that type use, on a day-to-day basis, is an insulated screwdriver and possibly a hard hat and safety boots (and the later two only on sites that insisted on it). Totally different story if they work anywhere that's big enough to have a safety officer roaming around, but working on their own?
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I don't think any electricians training would allow them to work without proper PPE for the environment they are working in.
Then you'd be horrified by the average jobbing electrician who only works on 'low' voltage ('low' here in the peculiar electrical supply sense of below 1000V). I've worked on-site with a lot of them and the most PPE I've seen that type use, on a day-to-day basis, is an insulated screwdriver and possibly a hard hat and safety boots (and the later two only on sites that insisted on it). Totally different story if they work anywhere that's big enough to have a safety officer roaming around, but working on their own?
Definitely true. I remember long, long ago as an intern working with tech's who considered 120VAC low voltage and wouldn't even turn off the power while working on equipment. They wouldn't even consider turning stuff off unless it was 277VAC+. I struggled to reconcile watching these grizzled techs with a notion that I was also taught early on:
"There are old technicians and there are bold technicians, but there are no old, bold technicians."
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I've worked on-site with a lot of them and the most PPE I've seen that type use, on a day-to-day basis, is an insulated screwdriver and possibly a hard hat and safety boots (and the later two only on sites that insisted on it).
That's what I see for the most part as well. If they are caught by OSHA, they are facing some pretty steep fines. Most if not all are required to have arc fault training, so most know whats required. Some sites will require it and enforce it, but that's the minority of cases. Even with the PPE, the smarter ones don't try and test the PPE's rating with stupidity.
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Definitely true. I remember long, long ago as an intern working with tech's who considered 120VAC low voltage...
Not to detract from what you said, I was just referring to the standard classifications used in the electric supply industry. They formally classify everything below 1kVac (1.5kVdc) as 'low voltage', which is perhaps reasonable when you regard 1-35 kVac as 'medium voltage', 35-230kVac as 'high voltage' and above that as 'extra-high voltage'.
When it's on my or your bench 'low voltage' for a 1kVdc supply doesn't cut the mustard in terms of suggesting the caution required (particularly in my mind today as today's post delivered a 12V to 1kVdc DC to DC converter).
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I don't think any electricians training would allow them to work without proper PPE for the environment they are working in.
Then you'd be horrified by the average jobbing electrician who only works on 'low' voltage ('low' here in the peculiar electrical supply sense of below 1000V). I've worked on-site with a lot of them and the most PPE I've seen that type use, on a day-to-day basis, is an insulated screwdriver and possibly a hard hat and safety boots (and the later two only on sites that insisted on it). Totally different story if they work anywhere that's big enough to have a safety officer roaming around, but working on their own?
From the cover of the manual:
"Comply with local and national safety codes. Use personal protective equipment (approved rubber gloves, face protection, and flame-resistant clothes) to prevent shock and arc blast injury where hazardous live conductors are exposed"
Obviously, there are cases where the non-contact feature should not be used. From what I have found, they really don't attempt to nail it down beyond this.