FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope

[pcprogrammer]

The original firmware uses a different acquisition setup for the slow time base settings. I'm not familiar with the software you are referring to, but the data for the slow time base settings might not be in the same part of the file as the data for the fast time base settings.

I did research the code of the original and reversed it to some point, but decided to write my own code and file format for storing the sample data. But I removed the slow time base settings in my version of the firmware.

There is a lot of information about the whole reversal here in this thread, and also a lot of data in this repository: https://github.com/pecostm32/FNIRSI-1013D-1014D-Hack

Try searching this thread for the .wav file format, it might be that I wrote about it.

[MilesStarr]

Sounds good, slow capture is functionally not useful then based on my attempts to use it.  Good to know, I'll stick to my other options.  I was just hoping to tote a little battery powered device instead of the wired instruments that I will need to use.

Unfortunately I'm just a mechanical engineer that gets my feet wet in electrical stuff, so your repository is quite over my head!

[pcprogrammer]

Reversing the programming: only in God mode...

Ok it took way more then 7 days, but if I had a son I would have to rename him Jesus, because I did it. 

The verilog is quite crude and there are some errors still, which might be timing related, but it works on the scope, at least with my firmware.

I will write more about the last endeavors in the thread in the FPGA section. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/fpga/reverse-engineering-anlogic-al3_10-fpga/50/#lastPost

[Kean]

Ok it took way more then 7 days, but if I had a son I would have to rename him Jesus, because I did it. 

The verilog is quite crude and there are some errors still, which might be timing related, but it works on the scope, at least with my firmware.

Congrats!

[mobby_6kl]

Hey all, I'm pretty sure I used to have an account years ago to talk about repairs but I guess it's gone now

I wanted to take advantage of the 11.11 sales to get my first scope for basic hobby and electronics or car repair stuff. I don't work on electronics every day, and in fact more like a few times a month so I wanted to keep the budget reasonable. Is this scope still a decent option? Right now it's about $140 including shipping and VAT. Some other alternatives I see could be the Hantek 6022BE, maybe 1008c, or Owon VDS1022. The tablet/usb form factor I think would be helpful for using it outside occasionally.

I've read through (some) of this and other budget scope threads but unfortunately I don't know enough to be able to tell what's a big deal or not. Is 13ns rise time ok for a budget scope? Is fake 100Mhz better than the more realistic 20Mhz in the other scopes? Software/hardware triggers, etc, I've no idea. Use would be occasional Arduino/ESP32 project, hobby-level repair or watching sensors in the car, etc. Thanks, appreciate any suggestions.

[pcprogrammer]

Don't know about car electronics and sensors, but for the occasional Arduino or ESP32 project it is ok, but don't expect protocol decoding. It works fine up to 20 or 30MHz.

I have not tried working with it outside, so can't tell if the visibility out in the open is good. I like the size of the display compared to some of the other handhelds.

As long as you are aware that the actual specifications are
100mV/div
200MSa/s
~30MHz bandwidth
3KB usable sample memory per channel (In the FPGA it is actually using 4K * 32bits)

Have not kept up to date with prices, so no idea if $140 can get you something better.

[tunk]

You could also take a look at the Owon HDS242,
the specs are real and it goes down to 10mV/div.

[Fungus]

You could also take a look at the Owon HDS242,
the specs are real and it goes down to 10mV/div.

You don't need 10mV for "Arduino".

I used something worse than this for "Arduino" for a couple of years. The difference between having something like this and having no scope at all is night/day.

For $140 in this form factor and battery powered? I'd get one.

[robca]

Hey all, I'm pretty sure I used to have an account years ago to talk about repairs but I guess it's gone now

I wanted to take advantage of the 11.11 sales to get my first scope for basic hobby and electronics or car repair stuff. I don't work on electronics every day, and in fact more like a few times a month so I wanted to keep the budget reasonable. Is this scope still a decent option? Right now it's about $140 including shipping and VAT. Some other alternatives I see could be the Hantek 6022BE, maybe 1008c, or Owon VDS1022. The tablet/usb form factor I think would be helpful for using it outside occasionally.

I've read through (some) of this and other budget scope threads but unfortunately I don't know enough to be able to tell what's a big deal or not. Is 13ns rise time ok for a budget scope? Is fake 100Mhz better than the more realistic 20Mhz in the other scopes? Software/hardware triggers, etc, I've no idea. Use would be occasional Arduino/ESP32 project, hobby-level repair or watching sensors in the car, etc. Thanks, appreciate any suggestions.

in general, stay away from USB scopes like the Hantek 6022BE. I have one, and it's junk. No hardware trigger, no AC coupling, poor software (even if there are slightly better open osurce alternatives). Also, USB scopes put your laptop at risk when used for high voltages/currents like in a car

For Arduino and similar, a logic analyzer is a much more useful tool than a scope. Even a ~$10 Saleae clone (24MHz, 8 channels) will give you a lot of value. Most of the times, when working with processors, you need to analyze digital signals and protocols, things a logic analyzers excels at, and very few scopes do well. Same for sensors in a car, where most use CAN which can be fully decoded by a cheap logic analyzer. Decoders can also be "stacked" so if you have for example a QSPI EEPROM, you can see either the QSPI instructions or the memory instructions directly (first you capture a stream of bits for each wire, then you interpret those bits as QSPI commands, then you interpret the QSPI commands into EEPROM instructions, all automatically done for you). With a scope, you'd see a tiny portion of that stream of bits (1 or 2 channels), not even enough for a frame. With a logic analyzer you see all 6 signals in parallel and can capture thousands of packets to analyze

The only times when you need a scope, is when a signal is corrupted by noise or otherwise. After all, all digital signals are analog in nature, and only an oscilloscope allows you to see malformed signals. But in that case, you usually need a better scope than what $100 can buy you. For most people a cheap, used 100MHz analog scope would be much better than a cheap digital one (space permitting, those things are beasts). Not saying a scope is not needed, but a toy scope won't help a digital hobbyist much either

Given your requirements, I'd buy first a $10 logic analyzer. And keep my eyes open for a used scope (Rigol or analog). Once you have more experience, you will know what you need in an oscilloscope. I used an analog dual channel 100MHz for years (and logic analyzers), then found a used Rigol DS2072A (300MHz, dual channel, 2Gsps) for $275 on Craigslist, which is my main scope for all analog and digital work

[Fungus]

For Arduino and similar, a logic analyzer is a much more useful tool than a scope. Even a ~$10 Saleae clone (24MHz, 8 channels) will give you a lot of value. Most of the times, when working with processors, you need to analyze digital signals and protocols, things a logic analyzers excels at, and very few scopes do well.

But sometimes you want to watch the signals in real time, which those gadgets don't seem to do.

(Why not? It would be 10x more useful...  )

[robca]

But sometimes you want to watch the signals in real time, which those gadgets don't seem to do.

(Why not? It would be 10x more useful...  )

I never found that to be a problem. With proper triggering (currently using a DsLogic), you can capture the relevant event and have it displayed in a fraction of a second.

By definition, signals you capture with a logic analyzer are too fast to be analyzed in real time. Even a relatively slow I2C fully decoded, is still too fast for real time display. Much better to capture the full stream for later analysis. Being able to capture and analyze 10 seconds of data is way more useful than a real time display. Coupled with extra signal pins for debugging, you can capture exactly what you need: set an extra GPIO to be used as a trigger or a marker

I guess I could think of a few edge cases where a real time display might be somewhat useful, but 10x more useful? Really not. Possibly 1% more useful in a typical usage

What scenario do you envision where real time display of events happening at a few tens of thousands per second can be useful? Nobody can read hex data at those speeds

[Fungus]

By definition, signals you capture with a logic analyzer are too fast to be analyzed in real time. Even a relatively slow I2C fully decoded, is still too fast for real time display.

Sometimes I just want to see if a Arduino pin is changing or not after I press a button. I don't want to be constantly pressing "record"..."stop"...mouse around a bit to find the signal...   

Just show me the state of the line in real time.

[robca]

By definition, signals you capture with a logic analyzer are too fast to be analyzed in real time. Even a relatively slow I2C fully decoded, is still too fast for real time display.

Sometimes I just want to see if a Arduino pin is changing or not after I press a button. I don't want to be constantly pressing "record"..."stop"...mouse around a bit to find the signal...   

Just show me the state of the line in real time.

So, you basically want a multimeter set in voltmeter mode? 

I mean, there are a lot of simple ways to do what you want, from a multimeter to a LED to an oscilloscope... I would not use a logic analyzer connected to a PC to monitor a single line for a slowly occurring event.

Incidentally, the hardware is capable of doing it, even the cheap $10 Seleae clones. Nobody seems to have written the code to handle it. I can set my DSLogic to capture in repetitive mode, and I get pretty much real time display of up to 16 signals. Sigrok command line has an option called --continuous, to continuously capture and decode signals. Saleae at some point offered Live View for some of their products https://blog.saleae.com/real-time-view-release-2/. Analog's Discovery offers real time also, from what I read.

[mobby_6kl]

Thanks all.

I should mention I do have a logic analyzer (one of those knockoffs) and it is indeed very useful for debugging i2c or other digital communication. But as Fungus says, it would be sometimes nice to actually see the signals, and not everything is completely digital either. Whether it's "pay $200 for something that will sit in a drawer 360 days a year" I'm still not sure though, but I have a few hours left to decide

[ledtester]

You might look at the DSO2512G:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256802899439203.html

Recent eevblog discussion:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-2ch-pocket-dsosg-sigpeak-dso2512g/msg4506109/#msg4506109

Note that the video output is PAL not NTSC so you won't get color on NTSC monitors.

The Adrian Black video is here:

4/12 This $57 portable oscilloscope has a really cool feature (ZEEWEII DSO1511G review)
https://youtu.be/Uqrel5fQpK4

Adrian talks about the PAL/NTSC issue at 43:30.

[Fungus]

Incidentally, the hardware is capable of doing it, even the cheap $10 Seleae clones. Nobody seems to have written the code to handle it.

Yep, I have no idea why Sigrok doesn't have a "real time" mode. 

[Fungus]

So, you basically want a multimeter set in voltmeter mode? 

Sometimes I want three or four.

And looking at a number isn't the same as looking at a graph.

[Evi]

Hi there
imagine, I read all these pages.
As I understand, one of the root problem is the preparation of the
SD card. Not everyone has linux available and even with the linux, the procedure is rather complicated.


Why not use SD card image? As it realized for Raspberry and other boards.
With the Win32diskimager, Rufus or another tool this become one-click procedure.


So, the question is:
are there kind enougth people, who can make card image from his Scope and upload here.


Also card images with service programs are usefull.

[pcprogrammer]

Most cards are already formatted as should and is dd really that complicated?

I don't use Windows, and have no knowledge on a SD card image format you mention, but I guess it should be simple enough to make something. But with an image the card size might be a given and you either loose space on a bigger card or it does not work with a smaller card.

I believe others have done the installing of the new firmware with a linux variant running in a virtual machine. There are live images available for this on the net. Should not be that difficult to get it done.

Another issue is the configuration file for both the display and touch panel. If tweaking is needed you still have to use some low level tool to write it to the card.

[Evi]

It is common practice to install OS on an SD for the Raspberry PI, for example.
As to configuration files, knowing file location on SD, it is easy to edit bytes in it with any HEX editor.
BTW, could you produce a brief description of config file structure?

[pcprogrammer]

BTW, could you produce a brief description of config file structure?

If you read these pages like you claimed you would not have to ask this, but here is a description of the "file" https://github.com/pecostm32/FNIRSI_1013D_Firmware/blob/main/configuration_file.txt

And there is a difference between an "OS" for the Raspberry PI and what I made. For the PI there is a boot loader that is located on the SD card just as where mine is, but the actual OS is in one or more partition(s) with a file system, and after startup this file system is mounted and accessible.

In my setup it is completely hidden outside any partition on the disk. Same for the configuration "file". It is just a sector on the disk with a fixed location. The firmware itself is less then 300KB.

If you want to use it I would say follow the instructions and do the work. It is not that hard.

[Evi]

Strange,
I put fnirsi_1013d.bin at sector 16 and
standard_display_config_sector.bin at sector 710 of SD card
with HxD editor, but nothing happened.

[pcprogrammer]

The sectors are correct, and the names of the two files are also correct. If these are the files from the github repository in my signature, then it should start with the new firmware.

But I have no sight on what you do, so can't say what is wrong.

Did you verify that what is on the card is actually equal to what is in the file fnirsi_1013d.bin?

The configuration file is only needed when the image on the display is shifted or when the touch panel responds inverted for either x,y or both.

[Evi]

DiskBegin, FWBegin, FWEnd картинки в HxD

[pcprogrammer]

What happens when you have the SD card in the scope and power it on?

The first bytes of sector 16 seem to be correct so I assume the rest is too.