FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope

[cliffyk]

The AP020 is a FET active probe, isn't it--a $550 (MSRP), $250 (used VG+) probe--that's comparing apples to lemons.

But I get your point, it shows that the signal is pretty damned clean...

[Kosmic]

The AP020 is a FET active probe, isn't it--a $550 (MSRP), $250 (used VG+) probe--that's comparing apples to lemons.

But I get your point, it shows that the signal is pretty damned clean...

Mostly there to show you what the source really look like. I'm not trying to insinuate that you can compare a 5$ to a 500$ probe.

the difference between the generic p6100 and the Fnirsi is interesting though.

[Fungus]

the difference between the generic p6100 and the Fnirsi is interesting though.

Yep, I'm wondering how a probe can be that bad when even $5 eBay probes seem to work well up to 300MHz.

[CDaniel]

Chineese P6100 are crappy compared to brand probes , not linear even bellow 100MHz , so that Fnirsi  should be the crappiest probes ever made 

[cliffyk]

Chineese P6100 are crappy compared to brand probes , not linear even bellow 100MHz , so that Fnirsi  should be the crappiest probes ever made 

The probes that came with mine are just plain ol' Chinese P6100s¹--there would be no reason for FNIRSI to make their own, as l suspect in China P6100s come with Happy Meals :



------------------------------------------
¹ - Now pretty much generic, and most likely actually made by 37 or more manufacturers. From what I can tell, in Shenzhen, you cannot swing a dead cat without striking at least a dozen electronics producers.

[boggis the cat]

Food for thought. I'm surprised at how much difference the probes made at this frequency. There's other threads here that show even the cheapest eBay probes working fine at frequencies an order of magnitude higher.

eg. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheapest-100mhz-oscilloscope-probes-hands-on-review/

Edit: Did you compensate the probes on each device before the screenshots? Images like this say "uncompensated probe" to me:

Yeah, at the 1X setting no compensation seemed to work for the supplied probes.  So I compensated at 10X properly, then just set them to 1X.   

Did the same with the Siglent probes, which at least seemed to behave as expected.

Rotten apple to rotten apple comparison.   

[pickle9000]

Funny how things are. In the early 1970's  a 20mhz scope was easily 600 bucks. This one would
have cost 30.00 back then. It would have changed so many things (limitations or not). So many
people would have had one and that would have educated so many people.

I say good job to the company that squeezed this out. Now can they come out a better one? I hope
so and if they can keep the price as is, it could make them millions. Yes they lied about the specs, so
what else is new. Companies lie, politicians lie and so many others. Tell them they are wrong and
perhaps how to fix the problem. Politicians just need to be voted out and maybe locked up.

This is a great thread. I wish everyone luck. 

[boggis the cat]

Once I have it I'll give it a look over.  My expectations are low, but we'll see.

User interface looks awful.

Probably going to be hideous.  UI is one area where the Chinese don't seem to bother spending much effort.  Even very accurate, well engineered, equipment can have a godawful UI.

Then there's ridiculous hardware interface stuff like some of Rigol's instruments with slanted buttons and multiple fonts...  Why?   

(Does anyone know the answer to the mystery as to why so many cheap Chinese devices use that hideous serif font?  As an example, the FeelTech / FeelElec devices I have use it.  Is it just built-in to a build package and they can't be arsed to use a decent font?)

[boggis the cat]

In a not at all bandwidth related exercise I tested the 1013D's battery life.

It ran continuously for 6 h 45 m while monitoring two phases of a 4-phase stepper motor being accelerated and cycled clockwise/anticlockwise over a 270° sweep, pulse frequencies 7 to 44 Hz...

Pretty damned good, first thing I've tested that bettered the claimed spec. It took a 3½ hours to recharge at 1.8 A tapering to 0.3 A over the last ½ hour...

Aligns with what I have found.

Turn it on, forget that it is still running, go back two hours later, still plenty of power.  Would be a good in-the-field device if they could improve the UI and accuracy.  (Still limited by triggering options, capture depth, etc. – so not going to replace a 'real' portable 'scope for some applications.)

Plug it in to a PC or what have you, and it's fully charged very quickly.

[boggis the cat]

I got similar results testing the probe that came with my FNIRSI 5012H. Probe was compensated and then I used a 1V square wave at 2Mhz with 1ns Rise time.

Fnirsi probe:


Generic P6100:


Lecroy AP020:

Possibly not my ineptness, then.

I tried adjusting both probes with the signal applied, and couldn't get any noticeable change at 1X.   

Then the second probe was really bouncing around on that leading edge, while the first was pretty consistent.

Garbage probes, I guess.

[boggis the cat]

The probes that came with mine are just plain ol' Chinese P6100s¹--there would be no reason for FNIRSI to make their own, as l suspect in China P6100s come with Happy Meals :



------------------------------------------
¹ - Now pretty much generic, and most likely actually made by 37 or more manufacturers. From what I can tell, in Shenzhen, you cannot swing a dead cat without striking at least a dozen electronics producers.

The "P6100" probes with my FNIRSI look slightly different to those pictured.  Text on labels is finer, moulded text shown in pic beside CE marking is absent, and possibly the moulded "X1" and "X10" are different.

Maybe my mysterious no-nameplate 'scope-type-thing was fished out of the same dumpster as some knock-off P6100s?   

[tautech]

I tried adjusting both probes with the signal applied, and couldn't get any noticeable change at 1X.   

You can't compensate probes on 1x only on 10x. The compensation trimmer cap is not part of the 1x probe circuit.
Still, the probes trimming range must suit the input capacitance of the scopes input for 10x work when matching probes to scopes. Yet it is just not that simple either as a probes frequency response when swept to a scopes max BW and beyond needs be a flat as possible for measurements at any rated frequency to be reasonably accurate.

FYI for any instrument tests it's always best to use direct BNC cable connections and assess the probes independently/separately.

[cliffyk]

I tried adjusting both probes with the signal applied, and couldn't get any noticeable change at 1X.   

You can't compensate probes on 1x only on 10x. The compensation trimmer cap is not part of the 1x probe circuit.
Still, the probes trimming range must suit the input capacitance of the scopes input for 10x work when matching probes to scopes. Yet it is just not that simple either as a probes frequency response when swept to a scopes max BW and beyond needs be a flat as possible for measurements at any rated frequency to be reasonably accurate.

FYI for any instrument tests it's always best to use direct BNC cable connections and assess the probes independently/separately.

^+1, beat me to it...

I have always found that 10X passive HF probes MUST be adjusted at each use, with the scope set to the vertical gain and coupling at which you ill be performing your observations. I do not have much need for them in the work I generally perform (automotive repair & audio), and even those I have from Agilent, Lecroy, and Tektronix seem to behave differently at each use...

[cliffyk]

The "P6100" probes with my FNIRSI look slightly different to those pictured.  Text on labels is finer, moulded text shown in pic beside CE marking is absent, and possibly the moulded "X1" and "X10" are different.

Maybe my mysterious no-nameplate 'scope-type-thing was fished out of the same dumpster as some knock-off P6100s?   

I just scrounged through my "junk drawer" and found similar labeling and slight molding discrepancies with the dozen or so  "P6100" probes I have accumulated. Even if there is just one maker such inconsistencies could be expected between production runs--differently sourced labels, new/repaired molds, etc.

My great-grandson referred to the FNIRSI ADS5012H I had briefly as an"oscilloscope emulator"...

[CDaniel]

Who knows how many let's say "companies" produce P6100 probes ... hard to believe it is just one in the whole China  Because is low quality and cheap to made

[pascal_sweden]

What tools did you use for these nice screenshots?

I got similar results testing the probe that came with my FNIRSI 5012H. Probe was compensated and then I used a 1V square wave at 2Mhz with 1ns Rise time.

Fnirsi probe:


Generic P6100:


Lecroy AP020:

Possibly not my ineptness, then.

I tried adjusting both probes with the signal applied, and couldn't get any noticeable change at 1X.   

Then the second probe was really bouncing around on that leading edge, while the first was pretty consistent.

Garbage probes, I guess.

[tautech]

Who knows how many let's say "companies" produce P6100 probes ... hard to believe it is just one in the whole China  Because is low quality and cheap to made

Just one company makes the P6100 probes.
They have been making probes for decades and make many more than just P6000 models.

Other Chinese probe manufacturers exist too.

[Kosmic]

What tools did you use for these nice screenshots?

Simple screen grab from my lecroy scope.

[Kosmic]

Who knows how many let's say "companies" produce P6100 probes ... hard to believe it is just one in the whole China  Because is low quality and cheap to made

Just one company makes the P6100 probes.
They have been making probes for decades and make many more than just P6000 models.

Other Chinese probe manufacturers exist too.

Not too sure about that. The generic 6100 (I have 4 identical samples bought from different sources) and FNIRSI Probes are not exactly the same. All generic 6100 in my possession look the same and behave the same. The FNIRSI probe is physically different and behave differently.

Generic 6100 on the left,  FNIRSI probe on the right.

[Fungus]

The 6100 probe is probably like the DT830 multimeter - dozens of people trying to outdo each other in cost cutting.

[Kosmic]

the difference between the generic p6100 and the Fnirsi is interesting though.

Yep, I'm wondering how a probe can be that bad when even $5 eBay probes seem to work well up to 300MHz.

I would say they work okish up to 50Mhz (FNIRSI more 25Mhz). 300Mhz not really. Like CDaniel mentioned, linearity is not really good.

I did some tests with a noise source over here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2416473/#msg2416473

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2860544/#msg2860544

[CDaniel]

The 300MHz claim , if true , was perhaps from a lucky buyer who got something else ... but this cheap probes are pretty bad .

[tautech]

Who knows how many let's say "companies" produce P6100 probes ... hard to believe it is just one in the whole China  Because is low quality and cheap to made

Just one company makes the P6100 probes.
They have been making probes for decades and make many more than just P6000 models.

Other Chinese probe manufacturers exist too.

Not too sure about that. The generic 6100 (I have 4 identical samples bought from different sources) and FNIRSI Probes are not exactly the same. All generic 6100 in my possession look the same and behave the same. The FNIRSI probe is physically different and behave differently.

Generic 6100 on the left,  FNIRSI probe on the right.

Yes but look at your second image, one probe is certainly a copy as it's NOT a P6100.

Of a good few P6100's I've bought over the years all have been from different sources yet by the same manufacturer which after considerable hunting I was able to find however they wouldn't deal with small fry like me.

Now I just get PP510 from Siglent as they are reasonably priced.

[cliffyk]

I would say they work okish up to 50Mhz (FNIRSI more 25Mhz). 300Mhz not really. Like CDaniel mentioned, linearity is not really good.

I did some tests with a noise source over here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2416473/#msg2416473

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2860544/#msg2860544

Excellent analysis! Stable, repeatable, flat response is much more important than peak response.

That reported 300 MHz response could have been peakiness from a maladjusted probe. I found that when  using the supplied X10 probe and playing with probe compensation, I could get my 1013D to display a reasonable representation of an 85 MHz sine wave.


a "sort of" related analogy:

With automobile engines peak H.P. of an engine is an interesting number--power generally happens briefly, just before you shift--but the level and flatness of the torque curve are much more important to real world performance on the street...

The original (1995) Honda S2000 delivered 247 H.P. @ 8600 RPM, but just 75 to 120 H.P. from 2500 to 5000 RPM, and barely able to launch itself from a stop. You had to "rev" it to 6 or 7 grand to get a respectable launch--whereupon everyone watching was wondering "WTF is wrong with that A-hole".

In the end it was just a plain ol' 150 H.P Jap 4-banger built to withstand 9000 RPM, and tuned to make the marketing people happy by producing an unusable horsepower "peak" at that engine speed. It was not at all a fun car to drive, which is the whole point of "sports cars".

The best description I ever saw was that "it is a great car as long as you drive it like you just stole it."

My point is that examining only a single characteristic of anything (oscilloscope probes, automobiles, or elephants) will earn you just a singular and partial perception  of it's value and utility. 

[Kosmic]

Code: [Select]

Who knows how many let's say "companies" produce P6100 probes ... hard to believe it is just one in the whole China  Because is low quality and cheap to made

Just one company makes the P6100 probes.
They have been making probes for decades and make many more than just P6000 models.

Other Chinese probe manufacturers exist too.

Not too sure about that. The generic 6100 (I have 4 identical samples bought from different sources) and FNIRSI Probes are not exactly the same. All generic 6100 in my possession look the same and behave the same. The FNIRSI probe is physically different and behave differently.

Generic 6100 on the left,  FNIRSI probe on the right.

Yes but look at your second image, one probe is certainly a copy as it's NOT a P6100.

Of a good few P6100's I've bought over the years all have been from different sources yet by the same manufacturer which after considerable hunting I was able to find however they wouldn't deal with small fry like me.

Now I just get PP510 from Siglent as they are reasonably priced.

I also have one exactly similar to the "6100" but marked "P6100" instead.



Just do a search for "p6100 probe" on ebay. They are all marked as p6100 but are all a little bit different. I don't think there's only one producer 

Anyway my point is, the P6100 probes from FNIRSI are particularly bad.