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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Valentin on April 18, 2020, 03:15:22 pm

Title: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Valentin on April 18, 2020, 03:15:22 pm
Hello dear people! I was roaming around aliexpress, like one does, looking for cheap equipment and I stumbled across this thing for ~$140 which is really cheap when considering what it's specs state(which I don't really believe after looking at the mini scope's review), looks very new tho and I haven't been able to find any videos or even posts of it anywhere.
So I was wondering I'd come on here and ask you wonderful people if it might be worth buying, or if maybe someone has their hands on this thing. I don't have a scope in my lab yet and I was wondering what I should buy.
I was looking at analog scopes but prices here are absolutely outrageous(150 euros for a used 1 channel 10mhz analog scope, give me a break...), I found some better ones like a 25MHz 2 channel Phillips for 100eu, but for that price, I'd rather use a Chinese USB o-scope with 60Mhz bandwidth, but even then I'd rather use a propper bench scope, so this scope might be something of value.

Here's the listing:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000861098295.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.22127b3doVRRR4&algo_pvid=edb11322-95b9-46ac-9a63-b8edb27f3c5b&algo_expid=edb11322-95b9-46ac-9a63-b8edb27f3c5b-13&btsid=0ab6fb8315872218024854861e5a0e&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_ (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000861098295.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.22127b3doVRRR4&algo_pvid=edb11322-95b9-46ac-9a63-b8edb27f3c5b&algo_expid=edb11322-95b9-46ac-9a63-b8edb27f3c5b-13&btsid=0ab6fb8315872218024854861e5a0e&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: StillTrying on April 18, 2020, 03:39:02 pm
I can't find the exact FNIRSI-1013D 100MHz tablet oscilloscope, your link doesn't work.
Dave's looked at the yellow FNIRSI-5012H 100MHz bandwidth 500MS/s. :popcorn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIH48bIUU00 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIH48bIUU00)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Valentin on April 18, 2020, 04:10:09 pm
Quote
Dave's looked at the yellow FNIRSI-5012H 100MHz bandwidth 500MS/s.
Yes, I know he looked at that, that's what I mentioned in parenthesies.

Quote
your link doesn't work.
Weird. I clicked it and it worked, let me link another one. This one should also be from the official firnis store on ali:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000934486311.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.82921270tT6riy&algo_pvid=f6723bf1-94cf-4142-a575-b7c768967cb7&algo_expid=f6723bf1-94cf-4142-a575-b7c768967cb7-1&btsid=0ab6fb8815872260505105676ec577&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_ (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000934486311.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.82921270tT6riy&algo_pvid=f6723bf1-94cf-4142-a575-b7c768967cb7&algo_expid=f6723bf1-94cf-4142-a575-b7c768967cb7-1&btsid=0ab6fb8815872260505105676ec577&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_)
And another one from another firnis store(?):
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000904121391.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.82921270tT6riy&algo_pvid=f6723bf1-94cf-4142-a575-b7c768967cb7&algo_expid=f6723bf1-94cf-4142-a575-b7c768967cb7-2&btsid=0ab6fb8815872260505105676ec577&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_ (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000904121391.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.82921270tT6riy&algo_pvid=f6723bf1-94cf-4142-a575-b7c768967cb7&algo_expid=f6723bf1-94cf-4142-a575-b7c768967cb7-2&btsid=0ab6fb8815872260505105676ec577&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Valentin on April 18, 2020, 04:17:07 pm
Heres what the listing says: *chinglish spam warning*
[spoiler]
Key features:
1:Intelligent anti-burn,1X Can withstand up to 400V withstand voltage
2:100MHz analog bandwidth @ 1GSa/s sampling rate(1X = 5MHz,10X = 100MHz)
3:Fully fit 7 inch 800 * 480 resolution color TFT LCD display with bright colors and high contrast
4:Capacitive touch screen, the same as the touch mode of modern mobile ipad, is not a resistive touch screen with ancient nail operation
5:High measurement voltage range, 1X can measure 0 ~ 40 V, 10X can measure 0 ~ 400V,100X can measure 0 ~ 4000V
6:Up to 12 parameters measurement:VPP,VP,Vmax,Vmin,Vavg,Vrms,Frequent,Duty+,Duty-,Time+,Time-,Period
7:Cursor measurement function, it is convenient to manually measure the period and frequency and voltage
8:Complete triggering function (single, normal, automatic)
9:At any time, the waveform display (pause function) is frozen
10:Equipped with high efficiency One-button AUTO
11:One-button waveform storage and screenshot
12:Built-in 1GB storage space, can store up to 1000 screenshots + 1000 sets of waveform data
13:Powerful waveform picture manager supports thumbnail browsing, viewing, detailed viewing, page turning, deletion and waveform zooming in, zooming out, moving, etc.
14:Equipped with a USB interface, which can be connected to a computer to share its screenshots with the computer, which is convenient for secondary analysis
15:Lissajous figures graphic display function can be used to determine the amplitude, frequency, and phase contrast of two groups of signals
16:FFT display function, can analyze the spectral characteristics of the signal
17:Built in 6000mAh rechargeable lithium battery,Fully charged for 4 hours of continuous use at the highest screen brightness
18:Memory compression technology, waveform refresh screen does not flicker
19:Screen brightness adjustment
20:Background grid brightness adjustment
21:Ultra thin, easy to carry
 
Specifications:
1:Analog band width: 100MHz * 2
2:Number of channels:2 channels
3:Maximum real time sampling rate: 1GSa/s
4:Vertical sensitivity: 50 mV/div ~ 500 V/div
5:Horizontal time base range: 50S/div ~ 10nS/div
6:Maximum test voltage: 40 V (1X probe), 400 V (10X probe)
7:Storage depth: 240Kbit
8:Input resistance: 1M
9:ADC precision: 8bits
10:Coupling mode: AC/DC
11:Trigger mode: Single, Normal, Auto
12:Trigger edge: Rising edge/Falling edge
13:External trigger voltage 0 – 40 V
14:Display: 7 inch - 800*480
15:Operating: Capacitive touch screen + gesture
16:Extension ports:USB picture export
17:Power supply: 6000 mAh lithium battery
18:Size: 184mm x 124mm x 50mm
19:Total weight:650g
 
Package includes:
1 x FNIRSI-1013D oscilloscope host
2 x Matching 100MHz probe(1X and 10X)
1 x 5V2A Charger(Include USB data line)
1 x User manual (English)
[/spoiler]

And here are some images, there's a whole bunch more on the listing, wasn't bothered to screenshot them all:
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: fkfaraz on May 05, 2020, 02:49:36 pm
also interested in this tablet o'scope. does any body got hand on this o'scope???
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: PKTKS on May 05, 2020, 03:31:48 pm
also interested in this tablet o'scope. does any body got hand on this o'scope???

Not seeing before.  Seems a new model.

It would be nice if that  BW is really 100MHz
unlike the others which more likely are 20MHz or so

Price would fit if 100MHz  otherwise just a crap
But a mobile bat operated 100MHz w/TFT touch ?

That is nice
Paul

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: wolfy007 on May 05, 2020, 05:44:34 pm
I saw that, couldnt help myself and ordered one, I will let you know when I get it. I have to know if the XY mode is as good as the one video I saw or if its bullshit, I MUST KNOW....   :-DD

Regards
Nik
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on May 05, 2020, 07:10:42 pm
The main hardware is probably the same garbage as the little one. If you want a tablet oscope don't waste your money and get a micsig.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: wolfy007 on May 05, 2020, 07:16:51 pm
The main hardware is probably the same garbage as the little one. If you want a tablet oscope don't waste your money and get a micsig.

Find out soon enough!  >:D

MicSig is the much better choice if you need a portable scope. I just want to see if its the same old or whether they have actually progressed to something better, there is no pull apart/reviews on it I could find.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on May 05, 2020, 07:30:25 pm
I expect a better mcu for handling the display and... Nothing else.

Maybe it'd be a decent platform for your own tablet project.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: fkfaraz on May 06, 2020, 07:04:43 pm
yeah definitely Micsig is better then this tab o'scope. But micsig is like a bench o'scope specially the sto1104c (with knobs On) looks like a fully featured bench o'scope. while this one could be used in field even if works reasonably around 20Mhz-ish. ::)

@wolfy007 let us know ur opinion when u get it..

Finger crossed :box: :box:
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cdev on May 06, 2020, 07:17:20 pm
Looks pretty nice for the price.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Kosmic on May 06, 2020, 08:25:08 pm
Frontend look similar to the FNIRSI-5012H but they added a FPGA.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=985500;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=985504;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=985508;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=985512;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=985516;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=985520;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=985524;image)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: afm on May 09, 2020, 10:40:49 pm
Reads 100 Mhz, or not?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: stefanh on May 12, 2020, 12:30:06 am
Can you confirm the bandwidth?  Price is very appealing for a small portable 2 channel scope.

Looks like a few copycat / rebadged versions are making an appearance.
https://au.banggood.com/DANIU-ADS1013D-2-Channels-100MHz-Band-Width-1GSa-or-s-Sampling-Rate-Oscilloscope-with-7-Inch-Color-TFT-LCD-Touch-Screen-p-1641865.html?cur_warehouse=CN

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: hgjdwx on May 12, 2020, 02:05:46 am
This is the key:
4:Vertical sensitivity: 50 mV/div ~ 500 V/div
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: ResistorRob on May 12, 2020, 09:16:37 pm
Original Poster's link worked for me.

If they had a 4 channel version of this it would be the perfect cheap automotive scope. I don't have the need for anything mobile, but being battery operated would be awesome because then I would be isolated from mains. Even if it operates at half it's claimed bandwidth it would be worth it (to me).
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cdev on May 12, 2020, 11:13:01 pm
Watch out for ESD even so!

I'd be afraid to use such an obviously all solid state scope to measure spark plug timing, but I suppose there must be some way of doing it safeely. tapping off a logic level signal before it goes to the high voltage?


You know, since your use is so specialized, I bet there is a way to do that for much less money. But of course it wouldn't look as cool as a tablet scope. If they can pull this off and its a decent product they deserve some kind of award. It would be such a great thing for experimenters.

They need a better name. "FNIRSI" how does one pronounce that?


Original Poster's link worked for me.

If they had a 4 channel version of this it would be the perfect cheap automotive scope. I don't have the need for anything mobile, but being battery operated would be awesome because then I would be isolated from mains. Even if it operates at half it's claimed bandwidth it would be worth it (to me).
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: 1847123212 on May 13, 2020, 12:19:36 am
allwinner F1C100S for main controller,it looks interesting :)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on May 13, 2020, 06:03:49 am
Original Poster's link worked for me.

If they had a 4 channel version of this it would be the perfect cheap automotive scope. I don't have the need for anything mobile, but being battery operated would be awesome because then I would be isolated from mains. Even if it operates at half it's claimed bandwidth it would be worth it (to me).
Don't mistake an oscilloscope like this with an oscilloscope suitable to use with mains! This oscilloscope has no protection against touching live parts at all so it is not suitable to use as a floating oscilloscope. You'll need to use a CAT rated differential probe anyway to probe anything connected to mains.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Rhenium on May 18, 2020, 07:18:43 am
Hi!

Did anyone check if it was capable of 100Mhz? Or where its limit is?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: StillTrying on May 18, 2020, 02:12:24 pm
4:Vertical sensitivity: 50 mV/div ~ 500 V/div

The link now works for me but I still can't figure it's maximum/Div sensitivity. 50mV/Div makes me think they don't use any amplification on the inputs, which would make the high BW a bit easier.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: snoopy on May 18, 2020, 02:15:34 pm
Found this video about it ;) Has a nice touch screen interface but not intensity graded or DPO so update rate is probably minimal. But still not a bad bit of kit for the money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EToBC3_FtOs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EToBC3_FtOs)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: wolfy007 on May 18, 2020, 02:31:32 pm
Mine hasnt come in yet with all this disrupted mail stuff, so I cant test anything yet, hopefully Kosmic will have further updates soon.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Kosmic on May 18, 2020, 04:05:44 pm
Mine hasnt come in yet with all this disrupted mail stuff, so I cant test anything yet, hopefully Kosmic will have further updates soon.

Sorry for the confusion, I didn't order one. Found those disassembly pictures on some Russian website.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Kosmic on May 18, 2020, 04:13:43 pm
Hi!

Did anyone check if it was capable of 100Mhz? Or where its limit is?

Considering that the FNIRSI-5012H is not 500MS/s sampling rate and 100Mhz bandwidth. I would be really surprise if this one is 1GSa/s and 100Mhz. The frontend will probably have the same variable impedance (depending on the range) problem but the FPGA will certainly help with sampling rate.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: gfmucci on May 23, 2020, 05:59:17 pm
I notice that this unit is sold under three names:  Daniu,  Fnirsi, Elikliv.

Daniu is sold at Banggood for $148.  Fnirsi is sold at Ali Express for $138. Elikliv on Amazon for $190.  But new customers at Banggood get a $20 first time discount (I think - I haven't tried it yet  - could be a come on - or maybe only for items $5,000 or more :palm:.)

Does anyone know the difference between these three brands?  Probably no difference, right?  Does someone else make them besides the names on them?

Would this unit be:  1) Overkill  2) About right, or 3) Inadequate for a noob as an electronics teaching/learning tool, working through a Make: Electronics book and kit or planning to explore Arduino in the near future.  I'm already using a couple of DMMs.

I'm thinking that even 1/2 the value of the specs. on this unit would still be decent for my purposes.  The touch screen interface seems to be more intuitive than most.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on May 24, 2020, 05:29:01 am
Hi all.

I got one of these to test out.  Results so far are OK-ish – i.e. it does work.

It comes with quite two decent-looking older HP type probe copies.  I have not checked these as yet.


I have an oscilloscope calibrator here at work, so give some suggestions as to what I should verify and I will try to get it sorted.

This unit also came without a front bezel, from the 'Official FNIRSI' store on AliExpress.  Make of that what you will, but it suggests some form of re-work without proper QC to me...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 24, 2020, 09:46:08 am
Hi all.

I got one of these to test out.  Results so far are OK-ish – i.e. it does work.

Cool. I don't expect it to be perfect at this price point but is there anything you'd say was a deal breaker? How's the touch screen? Good update rate? How easy it is to set horizontal/vertical scale? Does it crash and need rebooting?

Are you "This is OK...", or "What a pile of garbage!"?

  • My unit is way out on vertical accuracy, yielding around 212 mVpp for a 200 mVpp 1 kHz square wave.  Specification is 2%, which seems optimistic, but 6% high is fairly poor.

That wouldn't worry me at all. "About 200mV" is fine.

(and yeah, 2% is never going to happen with an 8-bit ADC on a device like this)

  • No way to store or restore setups, and fairly limited measurement options.

Sooooo annoying if it doesn't power on to a known state (preferably the same as power-off).

  • I am not sure if it is set to a sinc mode or not – no setting for this.

It will be obvious if it doesn't have it: Zoom in on a rising edge and look for Gibbs phenomenon, ie. a sinc will show ringing before the signal starts to rise.

  • Waveform capture is two horizontal screens wide, so you can shift the window that much.  No hold-off or other such niceties.

Not ideal, but not a deal breaker.

I have an oscilloscope calibrator here at work, so give some suggestions as to what I should verify and I will try to get it sorted.

The main thing at this price point is being able to see wiggly lines on screen properly and not have any deal-breaking fails/annoyances.

I'd go to the extremes of horizontal scale and see how badly it aliases high/low frequencies. See if you can get it to display correct-looking waves with completely wrong frequencies.

How good is the FFT? I have a cheapo device with an awesome FFT (much better than the FFT on low end Rigols/Siglents).
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Kosmic on May 24, 2020, 02:41:03 pm
One of the problem of the FNIRSI-5012H was software triggering + slow sampling rate. Hopefully this is now fixed with the newly added FPGA ? in any case I would make sure to test triggering on slow or non repetitive waveforms.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on May 25, 2020, 09:14:18 am
Cool. I don't expect it to be perfect at this price point but is there anything you'd say was a deal breaker?

Nothing like that, for the cost.  It is 'feature poor', compared to a 'real' 'scope, but for the price...

Quote
How's the touch screen? Good update rate? How easy it is to set horizontal/vertical scale? Does it crash and need rebooting?

Good update rate, seems responsive.  No crashes yet, but the AUTO SET function can be a bit hit or miss.  (But it is fast, so just tap it more times.)

Quote
Are you "This is OK...", or "What a pile of garbage!"?

So far, it seems usable.

The biggest issue may be that 50 mV/div lowest amplitude setting.

Quote
That wouldn't worry me at all. "About 200mV" is fine.

(and yeah, 2% is never going to happen with an 8-bit ADC on a device like this)

Sure.  If you know how inaccurate it is, then it's less of a problem.

Quote
Sooooo annoying if it doesn't power on to a known state (preferably the same as power-off).

Sorry: it does power-up as last set.  No way to store another setup, though.

Quote
It will be obvious if it doesn't have it: Zoom in on a rising edge and look for Gibbs phenomenon, ie. a sinc will show ringing before the signal starts to rise.

Probably not, then.  (See attachments.)

Quote
The main thing at this price point is being able to see wiggly lines on screen properly and not have any deal-breaking fails/annoyances.

I'd go to the extremes of horizontal scale and see how badly it aliases high/low frequencies. See if you can get it to display correct-looking waves with completely wrong frequencies.

How good is the FFT? I have a cheapo device with an awesome FFT (much better than the FFT on low end Rigols/Siglents).

FFT included in attachments.  It seems viable for simple requirements.  Update rate is fast.

Attachments:

Pic 1: 200 mVpp @ 1 kHz (centred)
Pic 2: 200 mVpp @ 100 kHz (centred)
Pic 3: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – horizontal jitter roughly ± 0.1 div
Pic 4: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – trigger shifted low
Pic 5: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – trigger shifted high
Pic 6 & 7: 3 Vpp @ 50 MHz sine (centred) – amplitude ~2.3<->2.5 Vpp
Pic 8: 3 Vpp @ 10 MHz sine (centred) – stable amplitude (becomes significantly unstable around 20 MHz)
Pic 9: 3 Vpp @ 10 Hz sine (centred) – roll mode (automatic - cannot be selected)
Pic 10: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – aliased signal (AUTO SET not used, but shows aliasing is possible)
Pic 11: 200 mVpp @ 1 kHz (centred) – FFT
Pic 12-14: 20 Vpp @ 1 kHz (centred) – FFT, shifting horizontal scale

Notes on pictures and waveforms saved.

This is fast and seems to work well – but does not show the FFT in the thumbnail.  (No idea why not.)  There is no way to organise them; last saved is at top left.


Edit: forgot to add CH impedance characteristics as follows:

CH1: 1.015-1.016 MOhm // 30.0-30.1 pF
CH2: 1.012-1.013 MOhm // 30.5 pF.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 25, 2020, 11:32:59 am
FFT included in attachments.  It seems viable for simple requirements.  Update rate is fast.

Definitely something weird in the FFT.

[attachimg=1]

Attachments:

Pic 1: 200 mVpp @ 1 kHz (centred)
Pic 2: 200 mVpp @ 100 kHz (centred)
Pic 3: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – horizontal jitter roughly ± 0.1 div
Pic 4: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – trigger shifted low
Pic 5: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – trigger shifted high
Pic 6 & 7: 3 Vpp @ 50 MHz sine (centred) – amplitude ~2.3<->2.5 Vpp
Pic 8: 3 Vpp @ 10 MHz sine (centred) – stable amplitude (becomes significantly unstable around 20 MHz)
Pic 9: 3 Vpp @ 10 Hz sine (centred) – roll mode (automatic - cannot be selected)
Pic 10: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – aliased signal (AUTO SET not used, but shows aliasing is possible)
Pic 11: 200 mVpp @ 1 kHz (centred) – FFT
Pic 12-14: 20 Vpp @ 1 kHz (centred) – FFT, shifting horizontal scale

Thanks for all those.

How do you adjust the horizontal/vertical? Does it use gestures like pinch-zoom, etc.?

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: gfmucci on May 25, 2020, 12:50:36 pm
What are your thoughts about ease of use of the interface, especially compared to traditional knob and button layouts?  Simpler?  Confusing?  More or fewer steps to accomplish intent?  How useful is the manual for experienced?  For noobs? 
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tunk on May 25, 2020, 01:35:23 pm
Would it be possible to test it with higher frequency square waves, e.g. 10-100MHz?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on May 25, 2020, 02:20:00 pm
Definitely something weird in the FFT.

Yeah.  I suspect it’s working on the (full?) bitmap.  Not sure how useful it is.  I noticed it looks like it overlaps / interleaves when the signal becomes less ‘noisey’, so I tried to capture that behaviour.

Quote
How do you adjust the horizontal/vertical? Does it use gestures like pinch-zoom, etc.?

Horizontal (which took me a while to figure out) is just tapping left or right side on the display.  Vertical is by the CTRL item; opens a menu with V+ / V- items for each channel.

Functional enough, if a bit clunky.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on May 25, 2020, 02:25:42 pm
What are your thoughts about ease of use of the interface, especially compared to traditional knob and button layouts?  Simpler?  Confusing?

For people used to tapping phone screens, probably just as easy to use.  Cost is likely lower for capacitive touch screens now.  The screen is quite responsive.  Edit: seems to be single point / single touch only — no pinch type behaviour.  (I believe this is cheaper.)

Quote
More or fewer steps to accomplish intent?

It’s very basic.  Think of it as the equivalent of a simple, 3.5 digit multimeter.  The ease of capturing screenshots and waveforms is a positive.  Battery life of four hours seems feasible, too.

Quote
How useful is the manual for experienced?  For noobs?

Utterly hopeless.  But this is a pretty basic instrument, so I’m not sure if a decent manual would add much.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on May 25, 2020, 02:38:34 pm
Would it be possible to test it with higher frequency square waves, e.g. 10-100MHz?

The Wavetek calibrator tops out at 100 kHz for amplitude-controlled square waves.  I was more focused on the vertical (in)accuracy, as the timebase seemed reasonably accurate up until the trace became unusable (jitter / trigger issues render the trace ineffective by around 50 MHz).

I can check the higher frequencies with a nominal square wave using the timebase function later today.

It looks like the effective bandwidth is way less than 100 MHz, but I can check using the supplied probes as the manual appears to claim that you need to use the 10x probe setting to achieve the claimed bandwidth.

Jitter starts getting significant past 10 MHz for sine waves, so the triggering is a bit dubious.  You have the option of a set 50% trigger (in a settings menu) or can manually move the trigger point.  It certainly isn’t as stable as a decent ‘scope, but would be fine for gross estimations of signal presence and approximate shape.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 25, 2020, 03:57:24 pm
the manual appears to claim that you need to use the 10x probe setting to achieve the claimed bandwidth.

That's true on all 'scopes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiAmER1OJh4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiAmER1OJh4)

Jitter starts getting significant past 10 MHz for sine waves, so the triggering is a bit dubious.

This is much more worrying. 10Mhz is in the "Arduino range".

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 25, 2020, 04:29:47 pm
I just watched the video on this page, I think it gives a pretty good idea of what it does and how it does it.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000861098295.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000861098295.html)

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on May 26, 2020, 12:49:33 am
the manual appears to claim that you need to use the 10x probe setting to achieve the claimed bandwidth.
That's true on all 'scopes.

Not with an oscilloscope calibrator.  Or at least I have not found this to ever be the case.

The bandwidth is determined using direct connection from an Active Head.  (Usually 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz as reference level, so I did that here, but didn't bother to adjust for an accurate 3 Vpp reference indication because this isn't really a 'performance' instrument, so meh...)

So this instrument seems a bit odd, if it only functions correctly with the probe.

Quote
Jitter starts getting significant past 10 MHz for sine waves, so the triggering is a bit dubious.
This is much more worrying. 10Mhz is in the "Arduino range".

There isn't a lot in the front end.  A gradual deterioration in stability seems to occur, somewhere past 10 MHz for a sine wave.  Because this starts at 50 mV/div, perhaps it would perform better with a higher amplitude than 3 Vpp.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on May 26, 2020, 01:01:11 am
the manual appears to claim that you need to use the 10x probe setting to achieve the claimed bandwidth.
That's true on all 'scopes.

Not with an oscilloscope calibrator.  Or at least I have not found this to ever be the case.

The bandwidth is determined using direct connection from an Active Head.  (Usually 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz as reference level, so I did that here, but didn't bother to adjust for an accurate 3 Vpp reference indication because this isn't really a 'performance' instrument, so meh...)

So this instrument seems a bit odd, if it only functions correctly with the probe.

Jitter starts getting significant past 10 MHz for sine waves, so the triggering is a bit dubious.
This is much more worrying. 10Mhz is in the "Arduino range".
There isn't a lot in the front end.  A gradual deterioration in stability seems to occur, somewhere past 10 MHz for a sine wave.  Because this starts at 50 mV/div, perhaps it would perform better with a higher amplitude than 3 Vpp.
So its amplitude rolloff is not consistent through the V/div ranges and BNC cable connection produces different results ?  :-//
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on May 26, 2020, 01:11:13 am
Sounds like it's still a toy scope, not a serious instrument, and the bandwidth is still a lie. As expected.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: gfmucci on May 26, 2020, 02:25:48 am
Sounds like it's still a toy scope, not a serious instrument, and the bandwidth is still a lie. As expected.
Is the Hantek linked below a less enough of a "toy" to be worth $70 more?
https://www.amazon.com/Hantek-DSO5072P-Digital-Oscilloscope-Bandwidth/dp/B00RJPXB6Y/ref=sxin_12_ac_m_pm?ac_md=5-1-QmV0d2VlbiAkMTAwIGFuZCAkNDAw-ac_d_pm&cv_ct_cx=oscilloscope&dchild=1&keywords=oscilloscope&pd_rd_i=B00RJPXB6Y&pd_rd_r=a2fcc83f-174f-4d8b-8b42-a9c39cadd7d8&pd_rd_w=Z1GDp&pd_rd_wg=4wViO&pf_rd_p=14719209-e059-46b3-be1a-859d16f01f7e&pf_rd_r=ZQK2WZNQ2XPTRBDYA52V&psc=1&qid=1590459641&sprefix=oscillo&sr=1-2-3f74d940-526b-436f-a83d-f486577edf4d (https://www.amazon.com/Hantek-DSO5072P-Digital-Oscilloscope-Bandwidth/dp/B00RJPXB6Y/ref=sxin_12_ac_m_pm?ac_md=5-1-QmV0d2VlbiAkMTAwIGFuZCAkNDAw-ac_d_pm&cv_ct_cx=oscilloscope&dchild=1&keywords=oscilloscope&pd_rd_i=B00RJPXB6Y&pd_rd_r=a2fcc83f-174f-4d8b-8b42-a9c39cadd7d8&pd_rd_w=Z1GDp&pd_rd_wg=4wViO&pf_rd_p=14719209-e059-46b3-be1a-859d16f01f7e&pf_rd_r=ZQK2WZNQ2XPTRBDYA52V&psc=1&qid=1590459641&sprefix=oscillo&sr=1-2-3f74d940-526b-436f-a83d-f486577edf4d)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on May 26, 2020, 02:29:22 am
Yes, that's not a toy. It's a real oscilloscope and while its specs aren't very good at least they're honest and I'm reasonably certain it can do whatever they claim.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on May 26, 2020, 07:49:46 am
Some more results.

15_c.png through 25_c.png are a 1 Vpp sine wave at settings from 20 ns/div (50 Mhz) through to 10 ns/div (100 MHz) in -1 ns/div steps.  Notice that the 100 Mhz trace has essentially died.  But...

26_c.png and 27_c.png are an 11 ns/div then 10 ns/div trace.  This was done by slowly ramping from 20 ns/div down to 11 ns/div, then 10.9 ns/div down to 10.0 ns/div.  So, a stable 100 MHz trace – if you can slide onto it gently...   :-+

28_c.png and 29_c.png are part of a PAL TV signal check at white and mid-grey levels respectively.  It shows the cursors in use.  There is a "move fast" / "move slow" setting (right of the s/div) that alters the sensitivity of dragging movements.  "move fast" is too fast, while "move slow" is frustratingly slow.   :)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on May 26, 2020, 07:59:03 am
So its amplitude rolloff is not consistent through the V/div ranges and BNC cable connection produces different results ?  :-//

It appears to be a weird hybrid / fast logger design to me, repurposed through software to give 'scope-like functionality.

My positive takes are: it is cheap, claimed to handle 400 Vpeak directly (yeah... I could check, but...), responsive UI, makes taking screen / waveform captures easy (but limited options if you want to do anything on the device), and it does yield a sensible(ish) trace up to 50 MHz+.

Negative: not really a handheld 'scope, IMO.

I think it is more of a "basic 'scope" / pretty inaccurate DMM hybrid.  (And I suspect it's really a data logger.)


Should you buy it?

Well, will it do what you would want it for?  Should be useful to quickly probe something before cranking up the real 'scope, as an alternative to the cheaper not-quite 'scopes, or for certain 'niche' uses.  I intend on adding it to my gear for the Airsoft club, where it could be handy to check for battery/motor type faults where a DMM doesn't tell you enough.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on May 26, 2020, 08:10:31 am
So its amplitude rolloff is not consistent through the V/div ranges and BNC cable connection produces different results ?  :-//

It appears to be a weird hybrid / fast logger design to me, repurposed through software to give 'scope-like functionality.

My positive takes are: it is cheap, claimed to handle 400 Vpeak directly (yeah... I could check, but...), responsive UI, makes taking screen / waveform captures easy (but limited options if you want to do anything on the device), and it does yield a sensible(ish) trace up to 50 MHz+.

Negative: not really a handheld 'scope, IMO.

I think it is more of a "basic 'scope" / pretty inaccurate DMM hybrid.  (And I suspect it's really a data logger.)


Should you buy it?

Well, will it do what you would want it for?  Should be useful to quickly probe something before cranking up the real 'scope, as an alternative to the cheaper not-quite 'scopes, or for certain 'niche' uses.  I intend on adding it to my gear for the Airsoft club, where it could be handy to check for battery/motor type faults where a DMM doesn't tell you enough.
Cool, thanks for your checks and the GUI looks not too bad but shame it's not a real 100 MHz scope.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 26, 2020, 12:49:04 pm
Sounds like it's still a toy scope, not a serious instrument, and the bandwidth is still a lie. As expected.

Anybody could have told you that just from the price, no need to read the thread or get snobbish over it.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: gfmucci on May 26, 2020, 03:24:42 pm
Sounds like it's still a toy scope, not a serious instrument, and the bandwidth is still a lie. As expected.

Anybody could have told you that just from the price, no need to read the thread or get snobbish over it.

From some of these comments it appears there is little "modulation" of opinion.  If it isn't a scope that is on target with the specs or they haven't mastered the use of yet or it isn't an instrument that they would feel comfortable using, it's a "toy."  I see the word "toy"  (or "shit" from Dave to emphasize his frustration with something) thrown around quite often. 

It would be more helpful to describe what the "scope" would be good or not so good at doing along with the extent to which it misses its stated specs. I might have missed the definition of "toy", which apparently is "Any device which misses its stated spec or behaves in a manner in which the operator does not expect or doesn't meet his own specialized need."

Every measuring/diagnostic device has its best uses and limitations and requires significant user familiarity with its best useage, quirks and anomalies.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 26, 2020, 03:56:56 pm
Every measuring/diagnostic device has its best uses and limitations and requires significant user familiarity with its best useage, quirks and anomalies.

No arguments there.

Compared to what's gone before, this seems like a big step towards being a contender for being a "real" 'scope. The touch screen is a good feature and seems intuitive enough, I'd have no problem buying one if I needed something cheap/portable and I knew I was going to work at frequencies I knew it could handle.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on May 26, 2020, 05:48:37 pm
Sounds like it's still a toy scope, not a serious instrument, and the bandwidth is still a lie. As expected.

Anybody could have told you that just from the price, no need to read the thread or get snobbish over it.

Yea. Multiple people bought one because they thought it'd be the same thing as the last one. I think multiple people thought it was going to be something more because of the form factor change. If you'd read the thread you'd see that I had. It's also not me getting snobbish I'm summarizing for people who don't know better. They see all the screenshots and won't know what to make of it. Especially with the guy performing all the tests being way too happy with a fairly expensive toy scope. Maybe someone will do like ataradov did with the smaller one and write new firmware for it but until then I'd rather people with limited budgets not waste that money.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 26, 2020, 06:19:19 pm
....until then I'd rather people with limited budgets not waste that money.

I can definitely think of a few usage cases for it.

Especially with the guy performing all the tests being way too happy with a fairly expensive toy scope.

And so can he.

I'd rather people with limited budgets not waste that money

It might be very good value for money in the right circumstances.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on May 26, 2020, 06:37:10 pm
Sounds like it's still a toy scope, not a serious instrument, and the bandwidth is still a lie. As expected.

Anybody could have told you that just from the price, no need to read the thread or get snobbish over it.

Yea. Multiple people bought one because they thought it'd be the same thing as the last one. I think multiple people thought it was going to be something more because of the form factor change. If you'd read the thread you'd see that I had. It's also not me getting snobbish I'm summarizing for people who don't know better. They see all the screenshots and won't know what to make of it. Especially with the guy performing all the tests being way too happy with a fairly expensive toy scope. Maybe someone will do like ataradov did with the smaller one and write new firmware for it but until then I'd rather people with limited budgets not waste that money.
At this price level you can't really go wrong. Worst case you end up with a portable scope you can use on the road. Someone else made the suggestion for the 60% more expensive Hantek but at that point you better save more money and buy a real (entry level) oscilloscope. But I agree this FNIRSI-1013D portable scope's price is at the tipping point where you have to consider spending around $450 on a real entry level oscilloscope or spend $130 and get by for a couple of years.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on May 26, 2020, 06:42:54 pm
It sounds like the "trigger" is as unstable as their first smaller version. If that's the case I'd recommend a meter with plotting(sometimes called oscilloscope) capabilities over this. You get something that can do what this thing can do but you'd also get a meter. Alternatively if you really want something that sort of works I'd recommend finding the smaller cheaper one and using ataradovs firmware.

EDIT: Are you saying the hantek is worth less than this thing you'd seemingly recommend to anybody? My comments were for people who don't know better not for people who know they might be able to use this. It can't even measure reliably though so I can't imagine I'd ever use this even if I had one although I do have multiple handheld battery powered scopes too.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: gfmucci on May 26, 2020, 06:53:57 pm
Yup.  It goes sort of like this...

$40 scope = "toy".  Need a real scope.

$140 Frinsi scope = "toy".  Nope.  Need a "real" scope.

$210 Hantek scope = "toy".  Nope.  Need a "real" scope.

$400 Siglent scope = "nope, not good enough, need a "real" scope.

I look at it this way:  Different scopes for different folks.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on May 26, 2020, 06:55:53 pm
I look at it this way:  Different scopes for different folks.

Beginners usually don't have enough knowledge to determine what would be useful but a stable trigger and working measurements are usually a baseline.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: gfmucci on May 26, 2020, 07:00:44 pm
I look at it this way:  Different scopes for different folks.

Beginners usually don't have enough knowledge to determine what would be useful but a stable trigger and working measurements are usually a baseline.
Not everyone has the same need for the same degree of stability required for their diverse applications.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on May 26, 2020, 07:12:45 pm
Got it.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 26, 2020, 07:42:33 pm
working measurements are usually a baseline.

I guess my Rigol is broken by design then. It only has about 5% accuracy according to the specification.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on May 26, 2020, 07:44:25 pm
Meeting specs isn't broken.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on May 27, 2020, 07:43:25 am
Especially with the guy performing all the tests being way too happy with a fairly expensive toy scope.

It works within limitations, and certainly doesn't meet the amplitude specifications.  Perhaps that can be adjusted, perhaps not.  I have (predictably) not received a reply from FNIRSI.  It should suffice for my intended usage.

I see a lot of instruments at various price levels.  Some 'professional' appearing, expensive, stuff is not very good.  Some cheap stuff is very good.  Often you are paying for support (or lack thereof) and testing to meet safety specifications.

This thing would probably be fine connected up to a high-energy circuit (e.g. mains supply) – or it might explode in your face.  If you want to do that safely, you're going to have to cough up a lot more money for a 'proper' scopemeter.  If you just want to measure a non-'high potential to explode in your face' circuit quickly, this will work OK.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on May 27, 2020, 08:01:59 am
A few more captures using the 'X-Y' mode.  Using my super-duper FeelElec FY6800.  (Special usage to please maginnovision.  :D  Now who can tell which 'toy' is at fault?  :-DD)

30_c.png – 10 kHz @ 5 Vpp on each channel, 90° phase offset between channels.  Note the offset along the y-axis - I don't know why it is doing this.
31_c.png – same, but shifted to centre by adding an offset (note the Vavg for CH1 is now +600 mV).
32_c.png and 33_c.png – testing where the limits are.  So it's one full screen height in both x and y - no off-screen capacity.
34_c.png and 35_c.png – changed inputs: CH1 is 30 kHz, CH2 is 24 kHz, with phase offset 75°.

I can't think of any other useful tests.  This is a fairly basic instrument, so I'm not sure what else to do.  If anyone has any ideas let me know.


Also, FYI:

The screen captures are natively '.bmp' format at 800 000 bytes each.  So not super-efficient storage size, but quick to process (about two seconds).  My unit has a 'Sandisk' branded 1 GB micro-SD card in it.  Real?  Probably not.

Waveform captures are 15 000 bytes.  Take slightly longer than a screen capture - maybe 2.5 seconds.  Why 15 000 bytes?  Don't know.  Perhaps that's the full memory for data points?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on May 27, 2020, 08:22:57 am
Quote
(Special usage to please maginnovision.  :D  Now who can tell which 'toy' is at fault?  :-DD)

I don't have any problems with the FY6800. I think you're confusing me with someone who hates cheap shit, or chinese shit? I don't care what something costs or where it comes from when it does the job it's supposed to do. As far as I can tell there is nothing about this that is a substantial upgrade over their last iteration which was bad enough a forum member wrote his own firmware for it. It had plenty of issues and this one seems to as well. Apparently I can't even get people to agree on a baseline so I recommend everyone go out and buy one. It'll be my new newbie scope recommendation since everyone is saying I'm just a negative nancy.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on May 27, 2020, 08:36:46 am
As far as I can tell there is nothing about this that is a substantial upgrade over their last iteration which was bad enough a forum member wrote his own firmware for it. It had plenty of issues and this one seems to as well.

If you can write new firmware for this, then that’s a positive really.

Is it open-source?

Quote
Apparently I can't even get people to agree on a baseline so I recommend everyone go out and buy one. It'll be my new newbie scope recommendation since everyone is saying I'm just a negative nancy.

OK.  You can be the ‘anti-Dave’.  :D
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on May 27, 2020, 09:13:35 am
Ataradov did release the source. I don't know if this particular scope it is possible though since there is no information on the hardware. The company who makes this doesn't release the source code as far as I know.

I'm not sure what an anti-dave is but you can call me whatever you like.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: all_repair on May 27, 2020, 10:47:06 am
Can take a look at DSO1511, single channel with FPGA inside for processing.  From the demo, software is more refine.  I already have a FNIRSI-5012H, so I can wait and wait.  For me, aAt the moment FNIRSI-5012H with the original software is fulfilling my simple need.  All those buttons are simple to use.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: AlcidePiR2 on May 27, 2020, 12:19:19 pm
I just received  my ADS1013D from Banggood for which I paid 118 € including shipping ( DHL).
This is probably the same as the  FNIRSI

I just unpacked it, tested its rise time with the excellent pulse generator from Leo Bodnar
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/msg1251589/#msg1251589 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/msg1251589/#msg1251589)

The performances are not as advertised. They say <3 ns on the back.
I measure more like 12 ns ( see pict attached). So if you think of the bandwidth as 0.35/rt, it gives a bandwidth of  30 Mhz instead of the 100 Mhz as advertised.
But apart from that (which I expected)  I consider it as a very valuable piece of equipment, and a real oscilloscope with  a huge advantage over
my previous oscilloscopes  ( I have many anchor boats and a recent  rigol 1054Z)

- No power chord. Works on internal, rechargeable battery.
- totally isolated
- No Fan : no noise ( this is also the case of my TDS220 which I use often because of that and because  of its light weight).
- fast and responsive  touch screen with a straightforward interface.
- large memory. Easy to retrieve the screen shots by USB connector.

- It is provided  with two x1 x10  full size probes ( I should test them on another scope).

So at  1/3 of the price of the Rigol1054z, I would definitely recommend it to a beginner, and to everyone who wants a battery powered scope. Within  the known limitations of the bandwidth to 25-30 Mhz.

I should also say that the included manual is small but informative and readable.

I am very happy with this purchase. 

A big advantage over many more sophisticated scopes :  from switching ON to signal on the screen :  < 4s.  Hard to beat !

Added : It seems  to freeze when you use the USB connection.
 Yes, definitively, it does not like to be hooked by the USB cable. Many bad behaviours in this case.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: AlcidePiR2 on May 27, 2020, 01:24:49 pm
Here are the  pictures of the internal views . They confirm what Kosmic has posted.


Only the board color seems to have changed.

The nice thing is that the internal memory is provided by  a 1 Gb  SD card. I have changed it with a 32 Gb card  and it works like a charm.

As the pictures are only 800 k. This is practically infinite memory. Waves can also be stored and retreived.

The missing part is a file manager, but this is already very nice, as accessing the sd card is easy ( 5 screws ) .
Incidently, there is space for a larger battery, so we can think that a hack could be done  to increase the

On time  of the device.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 27, 2020, 01:51:10 pm
I'm currently working on a musical synthesizer and I'd buy one right now if that FFT was just a teeny bit better.

From the few videos and screenshots I've seen so far it has a couple of artefacts that worry me.

[attachimg=1]

eg. Why do the height of the peaks on the square wave in that image alternate tall/short? Are the tall ones harmonics and the short ones aliases? I don't know the source of the signal in that video and the horizontal axis has no scale.

Can the measurement cursors be used on the FFT? Is there any control of the FFT horizontal scale or does it simply follow the horizontal timebase? :-//

I'd love to have one to play with for a couple of hours.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: AlcidePiR2 on May 27, 2020, 03:56:48 pm
eg. Why do the height of the peaks on the square wave in that image alternate tall/short? Are the tall ones harmonics and the short ones aliases? I don't know the source of the signal in that video and the horizontal axis has no scale.

Can the measurement cursors be used on the FFT? Is there any control of the FFT horizontal scale or does it simply follow the horizontal timebase? :-//

I'd love to have one to play with for a couple of hours.

There is not much action on the scale of the FFT.  The scale changes with the time division setting but nothing is written. Either you assume that  your main frequency is the largest peak, or you provide a sine wave  in the other channel for reference.

I dont see  as much alternate high low peaks as  there is in the picture you found;

Here there is a small alternation of high and low peak, but this is due to the FFT. If the frequency matches exactly one of the main frequency of the FFT, you have a high isolated peak. If you are further from one of the  FFT  harmonics, yoiu have a smaller, but broader peak.  This si seen below, but nothing surprising, and nothing that
reflects a priori a bad behavior of the scope.
[attachimg=2]


[attachimg=3]
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: gfmucci on May 27, 2020, 04:41:48 pm
Fugus said "I can definitely think of a few usage cases for it."

Which brings me to something that would be helpful to noobs like me and hopefully others.  I did see the extensive table that lists scopes ranging in price from a few dollars to thousands - must be several hundred listed.

I would like to see a pared down, simplified list in the BELOW $400 scope range that has at least the following genralized categories, with BOLD text being really good to know:

* Make/model
* Year produced
* Price range, e.g $20 to $60; $60 to $150; $150-$250; $250 and above   (The $20 to $60 range may be good for random exploration, without need for accuracy.  The $60 to $150 range may provide reasonable accuracy for limited uses.  The $150 to $250 range, etc. etc.
* Screen size/pixels
* # channels
* Band width, claimed
* Band width, useful and reliable (It appears that scopes generally less than $200 have "useful and reliable bandwidth" about one third of stated spec.)
* Trigger action:  Poor, fair, good, excellent or whatever other categories might be helpful
* User interface/ease of use:  Poor, fair, good, excellent
* Particularly useful features or characteristics; or grossly lacking features that unexpectedly limit functionality in the price range.
* Examples of best uses:
* Examples of what they do not do well or at all:

So, what are the "best uses" for this FNISI-1013D?  I'm mainly into audio and using tools for observing and learning electronic and audio characteristics (e.g. frequency, distortion, etc.).  If I don't need to spend an extra $100 for a "real scope" I'd rather not.

If this needs to be moved to the "noob" section, let me know and I'll have it moved.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 27, 2020, 05:15:14 pm
Here there is a small alternation of high and low peak, but this is due to the FFT. If the frequency matches exactly one of the main frequency of the FFT, you have a high isolated peak. If you are further from one of the  FFT  harmonics, yoiu have a smaller, but broader peak.

So the peak is shorter because it's "smeared" across two pixels...

Does the horizontal scale of the FFT change when you change the timebase of the 'scope? It would be good to zoom in on the first few harmonics.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on May 27, 2020, 05:42:40 pm
@gfmucci:

I put tools & equipment in three different categories:
1) Useful although limited but cheap enough to throw away.
2) Relatively cheap and supposedly fully featured but flawed
3) Expensive but working as it should.

I avoid the tools & equipment in category 2. They cost a reasonable amount of money but the flaws are like an itch that never goes away. Having to 'make do' and use workarounds takes the fun away from the project.

I put the oscilloscope this thread is about in category 1 but the price is at the high end of the range.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: AlcidePiR2 on May 27, 2020, 06:13:23 pm
@nctnico

There is also the category of tools

 4) Cheap, not full featured, but fulfill your needs.

I believe  ADS1013D is in this category. You dont need to throw it away. It has a form factor that is difficult to beat. Up to now, cheap wireless oscillo
have not been suitable for general workshop use.  I dont think its the same for this one, and I really think it opens a new game.
Its like the ANENG AN8008 multimeters. For most uses, you dont need more.

This is really  something to buy for one who is starting in electronics, even if he does not know what is an oscilloscope. When he will get more knowledgeable, he will
buy a better scope, but will keep the use of this one, as most probably his better scope will not be wireless.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: AlcidePiR2 on May 27, 2020, 06:18:11 pm
So the peak is shorter because it's "smeared" across two pixels...
In some sense, yes. But it is already in the mathematical FFT of the signal, not only in the display.

Quote
Does the horizontal scale of the FFT change when you change the timebase of the 'scope? It would be good to zoom in on the first few harmonics.

You can act on the vertical and horizontal scale, but in a limited way.

Vertically, you can change the scale by acting on the vertical scale of the signal, but the spectrum is crop on the top.
Horizontally, you can change the scale by acting on the time scale, but  from what I have seen, you cannot scroll horizontally the spectrum. You will
have access only to the beginning part ( which is what you asked for).


Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: gfmucci on May 27, 2020, 07:34:28 pm
I just received  my ADS1013D from Banggood.

I consider it as a very valuable piece of equipment, and a real oscilloscope with  a huge advantage over
my previous oscilloscopes
[bold added]  ( I have many anchor boats and a recent  rigol 1054Z)

Certainly not on par with your Rigol 1054Z, right? https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/)

What will be the circumstances/types of testing with your new ADS1013D that you would not use the Rigol for?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 27, 2020, 07:40:13 pm
You will have access only to the beginning part ( which is what you asked for).

That's OK for me. In fact it's good that the origin (ie. 0Hz) stays fixed at the left side of the screen.

The other big thing that bothers me is the lack of vertical scale and no visible noise floor. I'd like to have some idea of signal:noise ratio.

Certainly not on par with your Rigol 1054Z, right?
What will be the circumstances/types of testing with your new ADS1013D that you would not use the Rigol for?
 (https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/)

a) The FFT on the Rigol is awful. I don't particularly care because I have another gadget for that but FFT is the Rigol's Achilles Heel.
b) I was thinking of using this for recording videos. A 'scope with a  7" screen that lies flat on the bench seems ideal for use with an overhead camera but the Rigol shape/size simply doesn't work, especially with the mains plug sticking out of the back.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on May 27, 2020, 08:53:22 pm
@nctnico

There is also the category of tools

 4) Cheap, not full featured, but fulfill your needs.
That IS category 1.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: AlcidePiR2 on May 27, 2020, 09:31:19 pm
Certainly not on par with your Rigol 1054Z, right? https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/)
No, the Rigol is far superior in performance from what I have measured

rising time in Rigol is about 4 ns ( real 100 Mhz) vs  about 12 ns for the ADS1013D.

Quote
What will be the circumstances/types of testing with your new ADS1013D that you would not use the Rigol for?

I have a dozen of scopes.  Most of them are anchor boats that I have repaired. The most powerfull in term of bandwidth is a TDS 460 
with a rising time of  1.3 ns  ( Bandwidth of 350 Mhz).

The ones I use the most often are now the Rigol1054 because of all his features and 4 channels, but also the TDS220 black and white with only two channels, but which
has no fan and thus makes no noise. This is important for me. In fact, now I use more the TDS220 than the Rigol.

The circumstances I would use rather the ADS1013 is any time  I will test something  outside from my bench.

I had to test the signal of an alarm system, on the top of a ladder. This is certainly where the ADS1013 would be welcome.

Same for anything in the car.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: AlcidePiR2 on May 27, 2020, 09:34:04 pm
@nctnico

There is also the category of tools

 4) Cheap, not full featured, but fulfills your needs.
That IS category 1.

In this case, we agree.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: gfmucci on May 28, 2020, 03:06:47 pm
Well, after considerable consternating and other assorted deliberations, I went with the Hantek 5072P.  http://www.hantek.com/en/productdetail_97.html (http://www.hantek.com/en/productdetail_97.html)

Why?

1. Traditional user interface.  Better to relate to the numerous teaching videos for a noob.  And old people prefer knobs, which is what I am - an old person, (not a knob.)  This noob likes knobs.  Kind of catchy.

2. Changing functions on the touch screen blanks out what is being measured, or so it appears on the videos and photos. Not so with the knobby interface.

3. The Hantek is more likely to achieve its bandwidth spec, and other specs, which may be ~double the touchscreen bunch.

4.  If I croak before my wife does, the traditional knobby layout is likely to be easier to sell - or it will at least be easier to identify what the device is.

5.  I don't anticipate any need for portability.  It stays on the bench.

6.  I reviewed the Hantek's 72 page manual which seems quite helpful. Haven't seen the Frinsi or equiv. manual online.

As an aside, Ali Express sells this for less than Amazon, but their shipping cost is $50+, which makes it $35 >Amazon.

If the touchscreen O-scope is a "semi-accurate, semi-"toy" useful for some things" device, then the Hantek is a "low end, utilitarian, slightly more accurate, useful for a few more things" device.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 28, 2020, 04:01:13 pm
Well, after considerable consternating and other assorted deliberations, I went with the Hantek 5072P.  http://www.hantek.com/en/productdetail_97.html (http://www.hantek.com/en/productdetail_97.html)

Sure. It's horses for courses.

My own interest in this "toy" is more because of form factor and portability than its measuring ability.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on May 29, 2020, 08:07:43 am
My own interest in this "toy" is more because of form factor and portability than its measuring ability.

The FFT function seems very dubious to me.  I am not sure how they're deriving it, but the weird 'foldback' artefacts it produced (shown in my screen-grabs) are spurious.

If that's important to you, then this is probably not suitable.  More testing would be required to figure out what it is doing, and the limitations.

I haven't got a clean enough known signal source to really test the FFT function.  Nothing in the lab is sufficient, and my 'FeelElec' is not the most accurate of instruments.  (It has interesting aliasing issues which appear to be timebase related.  Assuming that my Siglent 'scope isn't the culprit, which I feel safe on.)

Also, no response from FNIRSI concerning this device and my query about adjustment.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 29, 2020, 01:23:50 pm
The FFT function seems very dubious to me.  I am not sure how they're deriving it, but the weird 'foldback' artefacts it produced (shown in my screen-grabs) are spurious.

If that's important to you, then this is probably not suitable.  More testing would be required to figure out what it is doing, and the limitations.

Yes, I'm going to pass on this.  I'll wait for the next generation or save up for an Analog Discovery 2 instead.

My ancient DSO Quad has a tiny screen but the FFT is an order of magnitude better (actually quite awesome because of high update rate, labelling of peaks, etc).

FFT is the green overlay, it's showing the cyan trace which has four harmonics in it:

[attachimg=1]




Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: AlcidePiR2 on May 29, 2020, 05:41:28 pm
Yes, this looks better that the FFT of the ADS1013D.

There is no labels on the ADS1013D, and the scales are difficult to adjust. It can only be used marginally.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on May 31, 2020, 05:16:15 am
There is no labels on the ADS1013D, and the scales are difficult to adjust. It can only be used marginally.

It's a 'basic' instrument.

The built-in 'Measurements' appear to be correct, and the cursors work, but it's all quite limited.

A modern 'real' oscilloscope (Siglent and Rigol are probably fine low-cost options) is a better bet if you want a more flexible instrument.  Siglent make hand-held 'scopes, too, if that is a requirement.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 31, 2020, 05:28:55 am
It's a 'basic' instrument.

Yes, we get that. I was more interested in the form factor + price.

A modern 'real' oscilloscope (Siglent and Rigol are probably fine low-cost options) is a better bet if you want a more flexible instrument.

The FFT on both of those is horrible. Within its bandwidth limits I dare say my "toy" DSO Quad is better.

Siglent make hand-held 'scopes, too, if that is a requirement.

If I was after a "real" scope in this form factor I'd be looking at a Micsig.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on May 31, 2020, 05:36:29 am
A modern 'real' oscilloscope (Siglent and Rigol are probably fine low-cost options) is a better bet if you want a more flexible instrument.

The FFT on both of those is horrible.
Yes we all know the low cost Rigol FFT is poor but an equivalent Siglent X-E ?
Nope, that's how a cheap DSO FFT should be, a proper implementation of a cheap spectrum analyser.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 31, 2020, 05:56:46 am
Yes we all know the low cost Rigol FFT is poor but an equivalent Siglent X-E ?

I'm just looking at the horrible FFT, awful laggy controls and slow update rate shown in this video (skip to 4:00):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf0TgfzYQXE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf0TgfzYQXE)

It doesn't look like much of a step up from the Rigol to me.  :-//



eg. At 4:30 he's showing a single sine wave, shouldn't the 'scope be showing a horizontal noise floor with a single vertical spike?

[attachimg=1]

My DSO Quad can manage it:

[attachimg=2]

It updates the FFT at 30 fps, too, not the 1 fps of the Siglent.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on May 31, 2020, 08:06:02 am
Yes we all know the low cost Rigol FFT is poor but an equivalent Siglent X-E ?

I'm just looking at the horrible FFT, awful laggy controls and slow update rate shown in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf0TgfzYQXE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf0TgfzYQXE)

(skip to 4:00)

It doesn't look like much of a step up from the Rigol to me.  :-//


eg. At 4:30 he's showing a single sine wave, shouldn't the 'scope be showing a horizontal noise floor with a single vertical spike?

[attachimg=1]

My DSO Quad can manage it. It updates the FFT overlay at 30 fps, too, not the 1 fps of the Siglent.

[attachimg=2]
::)
You know better than to judge an instrument from a 2 year old video, really !  :=\
One glance at the UI and I know it's operating with very old FW and after watching the whole video it's obvious how much better the results would be with the features that have since been added.

So you bought a DSO Quad to supplement the FFT that your Rigol can't do ?  :-DD
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 31, 2020, 08:14:15 am
One glance at the UI and I know it's operating with very old FW and after watching the whole video it's obvious how much better the results would be with the features that have since been added.

Video? Screenshots? I'm having trouble finding any. Let's see the new frame rates, etc.

Let's see if they've managed to get it up to the level of a DSO Quad.

So you bought a DSO Quad to supplement the FFT that your Rigol can't do ?  :-DD

No, I had the DSO Quad for a couple of years before I got my Rigol.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on May 31, 2020, 08:28:18 am
One glance at the UI and I know it's operating with very old FW and after watching the whole video it's obvious how much better the results would be with the features that have since been added.

Video? Screenshots? I'm having trouble finding any. Let's see the new frame rates, etc.

Let's see if they've managed to get it up to the level of a DSO Quad.
From 6.45. Also with old firmware but from a guy that knows how to drive Siglent X-E FFT.  :phew:
That this is the 4ch X-E makes no difference, SDS1202X-E FFT is exactly the same.

https://youtu.be/Cwbwq-AKbPc?t=405
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 31, 2020, 12:06:42 pm
From 6.45. Also with old firmware but from a guy that knows how to drive Siglent X-E FFT.  :phew:

OK, so with the latest firmware a good "driver" can achieve a similar update rate to a DSO Quad by reducing the memory depth to 2.8kpts and the FFT to 2048 points. Got it.

[attachimg=1]

Even so, he couldn't sort out the sloping noise floor or the weird cone shaped "peaks".

Maybe you should start slipping DSO Quads into the boxes of all your Siglents as a perk for your customers.  :-DD
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on June 02, 2020, 06:37:17 am
OK, so with the latest firmware a good "driver" can achieve a similar update rate to a DSO Quad by reducing the memory depth to 2.8kpts and the FFT to 2048 points. Got it.

[attachimg=1]

Even so, he couldn't sort out the sloping noise floor or the weird cone shaped "peaks".

This may be an accurate evaluation of the applied signal.  Unless it is a 'perfect' sinewave being presented at the 'scope front end (or close enough to pass, in this case), you should expect some aberrations.  I can check my 1202X-E with a good quality signal from the calibrator here, if you really want an FFT from a 'known' signal.

I have to take some gear in from home tomorrow, anyway.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 02, 2020, 07:59:19 am
Even so, he couldn't sort out the sloping noise floor or the weird cone shaped "peaks".

This may be an accurate evaluation of the applied signal.

Maybe, but it's not the only place I've seen it, eg. Here's a comparison with a Picoscope:

Picoscope:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/?action=dlattach;attach=758640;image)

Siglent shows the same signal with cone shaped peaks and sloping noise floor:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/?action=dlattach;attach=758652;image)

Images taken from this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/)

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on June 02, 2020, 08:41:14 am
Going by those this one must be broken  :P

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/is-this-oscilloscope-perhaps-the-best-for-the-beginner/?action=dlattach;attach=957182)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on June 02, 2020, 09:03:57 am
Images taken from this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/)

Did you not notice that there is another example two posts down, with a correct FFT display?

Poor configuration will produce aliasing, so that may be why the post you linked to yields that.

I will try a comparison of my 1013D and 1202X-E tomorrow, if I get the time.  It would be interesting to try to make sense out of what the 1013D is doing.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 02, 2020, 09:36:53 am
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 02, 2020, 09:59:58 am
Going by those this one must be broken  :P

Or just zoomed out a lot and half the first peak cropped off to hide it...
[attachimg=1]


PS: What's the frame rate with that many points?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 02, 2020, 10:10:25 am
I've just been looking at the classic FFT comparison video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07VkEUUd0eo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07VkEUUd0eo)

Most of the others seem to do something similar to the Siglent with the peaks in that video, although that could be from the source signal. Dave put a distortion in it.

None of the others seem to have a slope in the noise floor though.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Kosmic on June 02, 2020, 12:26:29 pm
Even so, he couldn't sort out the sloping noise floor or the weird cone shaped "peaks".

This may be an accurate evaluation of the applied signal.

Maybe, but it's not the only place I've seen it, eg. Here's a comparison with a Picoscope:

Picoscope:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/?action=dlattach;attach=758640;image)

Siglent shows the same signal with cone shaped peaks and sloping noise floor:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/?action=dlattach;attach=758652;image)

Images taken from this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/)

FFT Resolution Bandwidth is too low, try increasing capture time.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on June 02, 2020, 12:41:39 pm
FFT Resolution Bandwidth is too low, try increasing capture time.
I agree. I'd assume this is a setting somewhere that limits the FFT length; the length of the capture is more than enough.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on June 03, 2020, 05:31:45 am
Or just zoomed out a lot and half the first peak cropped off to hide it...

Well then, from your post above, half the PicoScope first peak must be 'cropped off' to hide something...

 ???
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 03, 2020, 05:34:21 am
Or just zoomed out a lot and half the first peak cropped off to hide it...

Well then, from your post above, half the PicoScope first peak must be 'cropped off' to hide something...

 ???

The Picoscope goes down to zero so there's nothing to hide (unless there's some negative frequencies in there...)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tunk on June 05, 2020, 09:54:26 pm
Here's a small review:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://mysku.ru/blog/aliexpress/79977.html&usg=ALkJrhguojbK4BKwyJE3pVHHq8nsoxRH-w (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://mysku.ru/blog/aliexpress/79977.html&usg=ALkJrhguojbK4BKwyJE3pVHHq8nsoxRH-w)

And you can find the manual here: http://www.fnirsi.cn/support (http://www.fnirsi.cn/support)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: skoehler on June 13, 2020, 08:07:21 pm
I am amazed by this product. I don't have one, and I will probably not buy one right now. But look at current alternatives (Mini DS203 and DS213). From what I can see in the videos, the touch screen interface is very intuitive and very fast. No comparison to pressing buttons or turning knobs to navigate through menus. In fact, I wonder whether one could not simply build a professional scope (like a Siglent 1202X) with a larger screen and an extended version of such a user interface. Fine tuning could be implemented with sliders that are displayed on demand. Coarse adjustments would continue to be simple touch gestures. This 1013d seems to lack two finger gestures. Using those could yield additional improvement of the touch interface.

The reason I'm not buying the 1013d is that I am thinking about buying a Siglent 1202X-E. It's available though German shops and I will have a more mature product, higher bandwidth, etc.
Another drawback of the 1013d is the battery and the power via USB. Given the rating (5V 2A), it will be hard to find a proper charger. Also, I do not trust the USB charger than comes with it. Better would have been USB PD via USB-C. Then I could have used a notebook USB-C charger or a USB-C PD power bank. 4 hours of usage on battery after charging it for 4 hours is great. Also, having it connected to the power 24/7 while it's standing on my desk seems like a bad idea. The battery will probably suffer, and, as I said, i don't trust the charger. Does it have a mini or micro USB plug?

If you are in Europe and you want to order it anyway: you will find units with shipping from Italy or Spain if you search for "nano1013d" on Aliexpress.



Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 13, 2020, 09:14:03 pm
The reason I'm not buying the 1013d is that I am thinking about buying a Siglent 1202X-E. It's available though German shops and I will have a more mature product, higher bandwidth, etc.

Have you seen the Micsig tablets?

Same form factor and touchscreen as a 1013D, more powerful than a Siglent.

https://micsig.aliexpress.com/store/group/Tablet-Oscilloscope/1293611_509734614.html

OK, a bit more expensive than the Siglent but if that's what you're after then it's worth saving up a little bit more.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on June 14, 2020, 05:14:44 am
In fact, I wonder whether one could not simply build a professional scope (like a Siglent 1202X) with a larger screen and an extended version of such a user interface. Fine tuning could be implemented with sliders that are displayed on demand. Coarse adjustments would continue to be simple touch gestures. This 1013d seems to lack two finger gestures. Using those could yield additional improvement of the touch interface.

It only has single-point response.  While you could add a lot more in software to something like this, the front end is pretty basic.  50 mV/div minimum to 5 V/div maximum ranging, for example (and my unit certainly doesn't meet the claimed specification).

Quote
The reason I'm not buying the 1013d is that I am thinking about buying a Siglent 1202X-E. It's available though German shops and I will have a more mature product, higher bandwidth, etc.

I have one, and it seems to be a solid, reliable, 'scope (now).  The 1104X-E is worth looking at, too – four-channel, and a bit more competent (nominal bandwidth is lower, but it's likely 'hackable' to 200 MHz easily enough).

Quote
Another drawback of the 1013d is the battery and the power via USB.

It's more of an advantage, really.

Quote
Given the rating (5V 2A), it will be hard to find a proper charger. Also, I do not trust the USB charger than comes with it. Better would have been USB PD via USB-C. Then I could have used a notebook USB-C charger or a USB-C PD power bank. 4 hours of usage on battery after charging it for 4 hours is great. Also, having it connected to the power 24/7 while it's standing on my desk seems like a bad idea. The battery will probably suffer, and, as I said, i don't trust the charger. Does it have a mini or micro USB plug?

Any USB charger will work.  It doesn't have to be 2 A rated.  Even leaving it plugged into a PC USB port charges it.

It uses micro USB, so 2 A is optimistic anyway.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on June 14, 2020, 05:18:44 am
Same form factor and touchscreen as a 1013D, more powerful than a Siglent.

I'm not sure about that.  What do they offer over the cheap Siglent bench 'scopes?

I would assume that they're better than Siglent's hand-held 'scope offerings – but I'm not really sure about that, either.

Quote
OK, a bit more expensive than the Siglent but if that's what you're after then it's worth saving up a little bit more.

A good bit more expensive.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 14, 2020, 07:02:19 am
Quote
OK, a bit more expensive than the Siglent but if that's what you're after then it's worth saving up a little bit more.

A good bit more expensive.

No more than the difference between a Siglent and a Rigol.

Siglent owners have no problem telling Rigol owners that the difference is worth every penny, so...  :-//
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rlohmann on June 15, 2020, 10:48:41 am
Hi @AlcidePiR2

I'm still waiting for my unit ... so I'm actually reading and searching for information.

Looking at the pictures, it appears to me that the shielding of the input BNC connectors are actually not grounded.  ???
Could you measure the resistance between the two BNC shieldings?

Btw, looks like your PCB has a slightly different routing.
The FNIRSI units seem to have a more obvious runtime alignment (meander traces) between ADC and FPGA. 

I found in a russian forum the assumption AD9288 are used as ADCs ...  so, the x1013 would have max 200Ms/sec sample rate (in best case).  :o
Maybe probing the ADC-clock (with a second scope) might help to answer that question...

Unfortunately both PCBs does not have the potential 9th and 10th bit traces routed.
Would have been a nice option to replace the 8bit ADCs (AD9288) with a 10bit ADC (AD9218) to somewhat compensate the min 50mV/dev. ;)
Especially while using x10 coupling for higher bandwidth which leads to min 500mV/dev I guess.

One comment/request on the 10MHz measurement you posted to check the rise time. Looks like you did the measurements with x1 coupling, correct?
Could you redo the measurement with x10 coupling? ... guess that will increase the bandwidth and could reduce the rise time.
... never mind, I've just checked the link to puls generator you used ... :D
   
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 15, 2020, 05:25:03 pm
Could you measure the resistance between the two BNC shieldings?

I bet it's ~= 0 Ohms...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 15, 2020, 07:00:56 pm
Looking at the pictures, it appears to me that the shielding of the input BNC connectors are actually not grounded.  ???

They must be connected to something, or the 'scope won't work.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rlohmann on June 15, 2020, 07:28:10 pm
You are probably right, looking at the PCB backside.  :)

   https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=985516;image (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=985516;image)

I got confused with the isolation on the top side and the trace going away from there.

   https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=997413;image (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=997413;image)

Guess the trace is going to the differential inputs pins of the ADCs and tied together to GND for noise reduction.
 

 
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: skoehler on June 16, 2020, 03:12:01 am
Could somebody follow which versions have the blue PCB and which versions have the green PCB?
Clearly, the blue ones seem to have issues which were resolved in the green revision with proper length matching.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: AlcidePiR2 on June 16, 2020, 11:39:41 am
Could you measure the resistance between the two BNC shieldings?

I bet it's ~= 0 Ohms...

Yes it is.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: wolfy007 on June 16, 2020, 01:38:27 pm
Could you measure the resistance between the two BNC shieldings?

I bet it's ~= 0 Ohms...

Yes it is.

Yup zero Ohms
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: skoehler on June 28, 2020, 11:02:24 pm
So, have you received your 1013d yet? And what's your verdict?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: wolfy007 on June 30, 2020, 10:47:07 am
So, have you received your 1013d yet? And what's your verdict?

Quick overview, same as what others have seen;

Three of us at work bought them, none of them can be regarded 100MHz scopes. Even using HP 500MHz @10:1 probes (just to make sure its not an issues with the supplied probes), the highest frequency you will see is about 85MHz with a sine input before its starts showing nonsense (signal starts looking like its modulated/unstable), and its attenuated quite a bit.

At my most optimistic I would say its a 40MHz scope. I looked inside, it has a blue circuit board.

But I do like the form factor a lot, it uses far less volume than even the Micsig and actually fits in my small electronics tool box with tools, multimeter, and a hand held signal gen yet has a nice screen size. So if you just need a low cost simple visual signal probe, its fine. If you need a more serious portable tool, with more features (a 4ch version), superior software, stated bandwidth and better triggering, save up for the Micsig and a separate carry bag for it.

What I found interesting while testing was XY mode. If you just put up some simple lissajous figures (circle, spiral etc) its looks fantastic without trying. But try one of those boards that puts up a clock or one I made to put up a spinning graphic (aka w2aew > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=344oEu9vo7w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=344oEu9vo7w) ), it cant render it correctly, almost as if its doing something funky in software.

When I get time I will post some photos.

But I collect all sorts of scopes so I couldnt help buying one, I accept my TEA....  ;D
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: skoehler on June 30, 2020, 12:18:07 pm
Can you clarify something for me? What does 50mV/div mean? As far as I know "division" refer to one line in the grid. But that doesn't tell me anything about the resolution within one division.

What I would like to know is the vertical resolution per ADC increment with a 10X probe (by how much does the voltage increase if the ADC output increases by 1). Or, equivalently, by how much does the voltage increment over the whole 8bit ADC range (0 to 255). Can anybody tell?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2020, 02:00:04 pm
Quick overview, same as what others have seen;

Three of us at work bought them, none of them can be regarded 100MHz scopes. Even using HP 500MHz @10:1 probes (just to make sure its not an issues with the supplied probes), the highest frequency you will see is about 85MHz with a sine input before its starts showing nonsense (signal starts looking like its modulated/unstable), and its attenuated quite a bit.

At my most optimistic I would say its a 40MHz scope.

Edit: Post remove due to Aliexpress confusion over the numbers. Many sellers say it's 100MS/sec (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001123682082.html) but it's not.

One question: How shiny are the screens on these? The screens on Micsigs look awfully shiny in videos. I hate that.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: wolfy007 on June 30, 2020, 02:46:53 pm
Quick overview, same as what others have seen;

Three of us at work bought them, none of them can be regarded 100MHz scopes. Even using HP 500MHz @10:1 probes (just to make sure its not an issues with the supplied probes), the highest frequency you will see is about 85MHz with a sine input before its starts showing nonsense (signal starts looking like its modulated/unstable), and its attenuated quite a bit.

At my most optimistic I would say its a 40MHz scope.

That makes perfect sense for a 100Mhz sample rate. Nyquist will be at 50Mhz and that's your maximum frquency, but Nyquist is a very theoretical thing and requires an infinitely wide filter to get the original signal back.

On any practical device you'll start to get artifacts that look like AM as you approach Nyquist, this is due to the samples moving in and out of phase with the peaks and zero crossings in the signal.

The highest frequency you can hope to see correctly will be approx Nyquist/1.25 which just happens to be 40MHz. Bingo! Math, it works.  :popcorn:

I'm still mulling over whether to get one of these. OTOH it might be better to sell my Rigol DS1054Z and put the money towards a Micsig.

One question: How shiny are the screens on these? The screens on Micsigs look awfully shiny in videos. I hate that.

Except its supposed to be 1Gsa/s scope not 100Msa/s, cheap front end holds it back....

As for the screen, its shiny, as shiny as the Micsig for all intents and purposes.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: skoehler on June 30, 2020, 02:51:34 pm
I would claim that the scope cannot display a 85MHz sine wave, if the sampling frequency is 100MSa/s. You need at least 2 samples per period of the sine wave. I conclude that this a 200MSa/s scope. But of course, results start degrading much earlier than samplefreq/2. Hence, the results starts becoming unreasonable above 40MHz (which would mean 5 samples per sine wave).

Anyhow, a Mini DS213 has a 100MSa/s samplerate, the price is higher, the display is smaller, and it has no touch screen. So maybe the 1013d is a reasonable choice for its price point?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2020, 03:31:26 pm
I would claim that the scope cannot display a 85MHz sine wave, if the sampling frequency is 100MSa/s. You need at least 2 samples per period of the sine wave. I conclude that this a 200MSa/s scope. But of course, results start degrading much earlier than samplefreq/2. Hence, the results starts becoming unreasonable above 40MHz (which would mean 5 samples per sine wave).

Anyhow, a Mini DS213 has a 100MSa/s samplerate, the price is higher, the display is smaller, and it has no touch screen. So maybe the 1013d is a reasonable choice for its price point?

Wait, I'm confused...

Many sellers say: "100MS/s"

eg. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001123682082.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001123682082.html)

But the official store says: "100M bandwidth 1GS sampling rate"

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000934486311.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000934486311.html)

I imagine the official store is correct, in which case there's something that doesn't add up.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2020, 03:34:58 pm
As for the screen, its shiny, as shiny as the Micsig for all intents and purposes.

OK, thanks.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: skoehler on June 30, 2020, 03:38:49 pm
As far as I was aware, the claimed (fake) specs were always 100MHz bandwidth at 1GSa/s. That's why people like wolfy007 would even try frequencies like 85MHz. If it was 100MSa/s, you would probably expect things to go wrong above 20MHz.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 30, 2020, 04:00:41 pm
100MHz, 100MSa/s:
[attachimg=1]
(http://www.sglabs.it/public/SgLabs_Tektronix_2232_1.JPG)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: CDaniel on June 30, 2020, 07:16:20 pm
The Tektronix is a combo analog + digital scope , made in the period of transition from analog to digital .  Used in analog mode ( like an old scope ) has 100MHz bandwidth , but if you want the digital stuff like measurements on screen  , cursors , storage is just 100MS/sec so much lower usable bandwidth
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: skoehler on June 30, 2020, 07:41:59 pm
What CDaniel said: the given bandwidth is the spec of the analog part, which is responsible for putting the lines on the screen. This has nothing to do with the problems that digitial scopes face, when they have to reconstruct a sine wave based on a digital discrete-time signal, i.e., a sequence of digital samples.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on June 30, 2020, 08:08:32 pm
But when I hear 100MHz/100MSa/s the 2232 automatically comes to my mind :-)

The analog bandwidth is a must, but the MSa/s for repetitive signals isn't... back then, that's what the "repetitive store mode" was for. Non repetitive and one shots are a different beast of course.

The 2232 has been my favourite scope for more than 20 years, I still like it, I still use it sometimes. Memory depth: 1k/4k samples :-) It's got the best user interface of any scope I've ever seen. Wanna save a waveform? Press store and the memory number. Want to recall a saved waveform? Simply press the memory number 1..4 and voilá. A pleasure to use, no infinite menus and submenus, each function has a dedicated button. CRT + awesome vector graphics. I love it.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: CDaniel on June 30, 2020, 08:30:03 pm
In a complete digital scope even if you have the input amplifier analog bandwidth you won't see it on screen  if the ADC sample rate is low ...
In my opinion this cheap chineese scopes are just toys usable for beginers , better buy an used portable old Fluke , like model 97 which have an extra powerfull meter
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 01, 2020, 11:36:31 am
1013D doesn't have 1GSa/s!!!
But the way, I made that screenshots of internal parts on the first page...
name of ADC IC is erased, but by pinout can see that this is AD9288-100MSa/s
(also frequency on ENC(A,B) pins is 100MHz).
so the real rate is 200MSa/s on each channel!!!
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: skoehler on July 01, 2020, 11:53:11 am
1013D doesn't have 1GSa/s!!!
Yes, we know that already.

But the way, I made that screenshots of internal parts on the first page...
name of ADC IC is erased, but by pinout can see that this is AD9288-100MSa/s
(also frequency on ENC(A,B) pins is 100MHz).
so the real rate is 200MSa/s on each channel!!!
I don't understand. You say 100MSa/s, then 100MHz, and then you conclude with 200Ma/s per channel! That doesn't workout. Do you mean 200MSa/s for both channels (meaning 100MSa/s per channel)?

As far as I understand ENCA/B defined the sample rate of the ADC. How can the scope reconstruct and show a sine wave of up to 85MHz with only 100MSa/s per channel? That's a mathematical impossibility.

If you measured ENCA/B, that rules our the possibility that they "overclock" the ADCs. Is there a variant of the AD9288 that samples on both edges of ENCA/B?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on July 01, 2020, 12:42:31 pm
1013D doesn't have 1GSa/s!!!
Yes, we know that already.

But the way, I made that screenshots of internal parts on the first page...
name of ADC IC is erased, but by pinout can see that this is AD9288-100MSa/s
(also frequency on ENC(A,B) pins is 100MHz).
so the real rate is 200MSa/s on each channel!!!
I don't understand. You say 100MSa/s, then 100MHz, and then you conclude with 200Ma/s per channel! That doesn't workout. Do you mean 200MSa/s for both channels (meaning 100MSa/s per channel)?

As far as I understand ENCA/B defined the sample rate of the ADC. How can the scope reconstruct and show a sine wave of up to 85MHz with only 100MSa/s per channel? That's a mathematical impossibility.

If you measured ENCA/B, that rules our the possibility that they "overclock" the ADCs. Is there a variant of the AD9288 that samples on both edges of ENCA/B?

Have you ever seen AD9288 data sheet and understood it.  This is old ADC what have used in tens on different manufacturers low end scopes even models what have 1Gsa/s sampling speed and years these have handled and discussed here in forum repeatedly. Of course less today due to fact that most manufacturers use more modern circuits today. One famous model was Rigol1000E models, also Siglent, also hantek and many others. Most of them put 5 ADC inside scope for get 1Gsa/s (interleaved).
Now I have seen OP fist images and explanation. There can see 2 pcs ADC chips. One for each channel. So, IF they are AD9288 or clones,  it can give 200Msa/s both channels simultaneously.  Just because inside one ADC IC there is 2pcs 100Msa/s ADC. And these can connect for interleaving.  Some of these chips are manufaturer graded to slower clock, example for 40MHz just because all chips are not best ones. All tey can work with 100MHz clock but all do not meet all analog conversion specs with this speed so manufacturer have classified these chips for different speed class. In history it was just fun when Rigol use these 40M classified chips as 100M and remove all labels from chips.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: skoehler on July 01, 2020, 12:55:08 pm
interleaving
That makes sense. So it's two 100MSa/s ADCs interleaved for both channels giving us 200MSa/s.
So that explains why things go really bad above 85 MHz.

So following the 1:5 rule, the 1013d is a 40MHz scope.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on July 01, 2020, 02:00:45 pm
interleaving
That makes sense. So it's two 100MSa/s ADCs interleaved for both channels giving us 200MSa/s.
So that explains why things go really bad above 85 MHz.

So following the 1:5 rule, the 1013d is a 40MHz scope.

Roughly saying yes if we talk about "single shot" usable BW. If there is available way or other implemented repetitive  acquisition mode it change this.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: martinot on July 02, 2020, 02:58:57 pm
The reason I'm not buying the 1013d is that I am thinking about buying a Siglent 1202X-E. It's available though German shops and I will have a more mature product, higher bandwidth, etc.

Have you seen the Micsig tablets?

Same form factor and touchscreen as a 1013D, more powerful than a Siglent.

https://micsig.aliexpress.com/store/group/Tablet-Oscilloscope/1293611_509734614.html (https://micsig.aliexpress.com/store/group/Tablet-Oscilloscope/1293611_509734614.html)

OK, a bit more expensive than the Siglent but if that's what you're after then it's worth saving up a little bit more.

This Micsig looks to be a perfect scope for portability, but still better value than the classic "cheap" desktop scopes by the other Chinse brands (Rigol, Siglent, Owon, etc.).

Thinking about to get this one with button/knobs on the side:

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Micsig-STO1104C.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Micsig-STO1104C.html)
https://www.batronix.com/files/Micsig/STO1000/STO1000C-data-sheet.pdf (https://www.batronix.com/files/Micsig/STO1000/STO1000C-data-sheet.pdf)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on July 04, 2020, 06:47:51 am
I have one.
Same lame interleaved sampling AD9288 100MS/s ADC, one per channel. So 200MS/s if using bi-phase clock.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50074405786_e4241c1dcd_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jhUqgU)FNIRSI 1013D Portable Tablet Oscilloscope PCB (https://flic.kr/p/2jhUqgU) by Dave Jones (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/), on Flickr
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 04, 2020, 11:38:48 am
I have one.

I'm still on the fence.

Same lame interleaved sampling AD9288 100MS/s ADC

That perfectly fits the observation that the signal goes to hell above 40MHz but it's a MASSIVE lie by the manufacturers.

A new low for testgear number exaggeration/inflation?

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on July 04, 2020, 11:44:56 am
Same lame interleaved sampling AD9288 100MS/s ADC
That perfectly fits the observation that the signal goes to hell above 40MHz but it's a MASSIVE lie by the manufacturers.
A new low for testgear number exaggeration/inflation?

Yep. It's 200MS/s actually as both ADC's in the one chip are clocked out of phase, same signal goes into both ADC channels.
I'd call it 20MHz and be done with it.
Still a dual channel 20MHz 7" touch screen portable tablet scope for $140 isn't bad.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 04, 2020, 12:00:37 pm
Yep. It's 200MS/s actually as both ADC's in the one chip are clocked out of phase, same signal goes into both ADC channels.

Is it one chip per channel (the two unmarked chips at bottom right)?

If so that's "400MSamples/sec" - nothing to be ashamed of but I don't see anybody advertising that number. They all have numbers that start with a "1".

Still a dual channel 20MHz 7" touch screen portable tablet scope for $140 isn't bad.

Yep.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: skoehler on July 04, 2020, 01:39:20 pm
Yep. It's 200MS/s actually as both ADC's in the one chip are clocked out of phase, same signal goes into both ADC channels.
Is it one chip per channel (the two unmarked chips at bottom right)?

If so that's "400MSamples/sec" - nothing to be ashamed of but I don't see anybody advertising that number. They all have numbers that start with a "1".
It's still 200MSa/s as explained above. Multiplying by two just because you have two channels doesn't make any sense. Yes, some scopes have 1GSa/s when using one channel and only 500MSa/s when using two channels, but this scope has 200MSa/s regardless of how many channels you use. At least that's what I understood so far. And the "marketing" is off by a factor of 5, which is pretty big lie that's totally unnecessary.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on July 04, 2020, 01:58:20 pm
Yep. It's 200MS/s actually as both ADC's in the one chip are clocked out of phase, same signal goes into both ADC channels.
Is it one chip per channel (the two unmarked chips at bottom right)?
If so that's "400MSamples/sec" - nothing to be ashamed of but I don't see anybody advertising that number. They all have numbers that start with a "1".

Yes, one dual ADC per channel. As far as I see, no way to combine 4 ADC's for one channel.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 04, 2020, 02:56:42 pm
Yes, one dual ADC per channel. As far as I see, no way to combine 4 ADC's for one channel.

And not much point if the front end isn't up to the job.

(or maybe the front end is up to the job and it's the firmware that's going to hell, I assume this will be covered in the video  :)  )
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 04, 2020, 03:14:51 pm
If to click save without SD card then firmware complete hangs...
Without a battery, the MCU should go into boot mode (this is implemented in the circuit), but it does not seem to work.
There is no way to update the firmware.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: skoehler on July 04, 2020, 03:28:33 pm
Without a battery, the MCU should go into boot mode (this is implemented in the circuit), but it does not seem to work.

What do you mean by "without a battery" ? Does it mean, that you disconnect the battery and power this device via USB only?

There is no way to update the firmware.
If true, that would be sad.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 04, 2020, 05:17:37 pm
What do you mean by "without a battery" ? Does it mean, that you disconnect the battery and power this device via USB only?
Yes, it is...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: AlcidePiR2 on July 06, 2020, 04:09:08 pm
Still a dual channel 20MHz 7" touch screen portable tablet scope for $140 isn't bad.

I agree. The main limitation I think  is not the 20 Mhz bandwidth, but the 50 mV  sensitivity.

Besides,   one can understand that they can find many ways to measure the bandwidth, but  I find that their most outrageous claim is the  < 3ns  rise time
while I measured 12 ns  at least, using Leo Bodnar  tool.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 06, 2020, 05:52:56 pm
Without a battery, the MCU should go into boot mode (this is implemented in the circuit), but it does not seem to work.
There is no way to update the firmware.

Well, actually the firmware is stored ouside of the SOC in the SPI flash, so it can be updated, just not without opening the device up...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: CDaniel on July 07, 2020, 06:40:38 am
Seriously , updates for a thing that was made like a toy with big hardware limitations ...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 07, 2020, 11:43:11 am
Seriously , updates for a thing that was made like a toy with big hardware limitations ...

Sure, why not?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 15, 2020, 10:24:21 pm
I ordered one from amazon last evening--after reading through this entire thread--and as one poster said, $150 for a 2-channel 20 Mhz (maybe 40?) 7" touchscreen tablet scope isn't too bad. In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.

After my experiences with the FNIRSI-5012H I did not expect it would/could meet the 100 MHz and 1Gs/s specs--too bad they have to just outright lie about these things, they'd get a lot more respect if they published the real specs.

I hope it triggers reasonably well on aperiodic bursts (which modern automobile control systems produce mostly), that was my deal breaker with the 5012, will get this one going back to Amazon as well.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on July 15, 2020, 10:57:07 pm
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 15, 2020, 11:21:11 pm
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 16, 2020, 01:07:19 am
Don't know if anyone is interested, however in digging around the web early this morning I did find a PDF file of the 1013-D User Manual (http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/FNIRSI-1013D English manual.pdf) (47.5 MB)--for what it's worth...

I love the "Solemn reminder" section, lead me to wonder if the fellow above who tested the rise time used the 10X mode?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: snoopy on July 16, 2020, 01:22:54 am
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly. I just bought one of these scopes and whilst it's not perfect I do find that I use it when the other scopes are tied up. Because it is portable and easy on the battery it is a great portable scope I can throw in the car anytime. Much cheaper than buying a battery for the TDS3000 ;) Hopefully they will offer some firmware upgrades and allow the auto triggering level detection to be switched on or off. Like Dave said it is essentially,limited to 20MHz but that is fine with me for a general purpose portable scope for measuring audio and power stuff ;)

cheers
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 16, 2020, 01:33:29 am
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly. I just bought one of these scopes and whilst it's not perfect I do find that I use it when the other scopes are tied up. Because it is portable and easy on the battery it is a great portable scope I can throw in the car anytime. Much cheaper than buying a battery for the TDS3000 ;) Hopefully they will offer some firmware upgrades and allow the auto triggering level detection to be switched on or off. Like Dave said it is essentially,limited to 20MHz but that is fine with me for a general purpose portable scope for measuring audio and power stuff ;)

cheers

Not at all; it would be sending back an oscilloscope claimed (by the vendor via Amazon) to have a 100 MHz bandwidth, 1 Gs/s sample rate and <3 ns risetime:

(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/FNIRSI-Claims-00.jpg)

that does not...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on July 16, 2020, 01:51:16 am
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly.
Nope, 500mV/div max sensitivity using a 10x probe is just inadequate for many requirements.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 16, 2020, 02:06:45 am
Nope, 500mV/div max sensitivity using a 10x probe is just inadequate for many requirements.

However for the remainder it is not, for example it would be entirely adequate for displaying the primary waveform of a contemporary "coil-on-plug" automotive ignition system:

this is the "triple-strike" firing pattern used on many modern cars at idle and lowish RPMs to ensure a clean burn
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/images/OwonHDS_3-Strike-Ign.png)

Or the PWM signal at an idle air control:

(http://www.paladinmicro.com/images/OwonHDS_IAC01.png)

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on July 17, 2020, 10:02:50 am
I just bought one too  :palm:

Even with all the lies, bugs and limitations, I find the concept to be excellent.
I sometimes need to "see something" in hard to reach places or when I am not in the lab.
When we just need to see if the clock signal is here or if we have our RS422 pairs at the right place, no need for the big 5000€ scope balanced on the crimping pliers.

The fact that we can increase the battery capacity is great, the big 7" screen is also great, no fan. I hesitated with a handled oscilloscope but I find them very expensive.
If I like the concept, I think it will lead me to buy a Micsig tablet oscilloscope but the small form factor of this little Fnirsi is very very nice.

If they make their code open source, they can sell millions, I think.
It need a small silicone protection and a more expensive 50 € model with real 500 MSa/s
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: snoopy on July 17, 2020, 10:22:00 am
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly. I just bought one of these scopes and whilst it's not perfect I do find that I use it when the other scopes are tied up. Because it is portable and easy on the battery it is a great portable scope I can throw in the car anytime. Much cheaper than buying a battery for the TDS3000 ;) Hopefully they will offer some firmware upgrades and allow the auto triggering level detection to be switched on or off. Like Dave said it is essentially,limited to 20MHz but that is fine with me for a general purpose portable scope for measuring audio and power stuff ;)

cheers

Not at all; it would be sending back an oscilloscope claimed (by the vendor via Amazon) to have a 100 MHz bandwidth, 1 Gs/s sample rate and <3 ns risetime:

(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/FNIRSI-Claims-00.jpg)

that does not...

OK from here on and based on Dave's review you can assume it is a 20 MHz scope. Still a very useful portable battery operated dual channel scope for $140 IMHO ;)

cheers
david

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 17, 2020, 10:24:30 am
If they make their code open source...

If only...

It need a small silicone protection and a more expensive 50 € model with real 500 MSa/s

I'm thinking the next generation of these could be awesome.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: snoopy on July 17, 2020, 10:29:32 am
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly.
Nope, 500mV/div max sensitivity using a 10x probe is just inadequate for many requirements.

OK what has siglent got to offer with battery operated, dual channel, 7 inch 800x480 full color touch sensitive display etc ?? And not some iddy biddy 3 inch QVGA BS either !!

What you got ??

cheers
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: snoopy on July 17, 2020, 10:32:01 am
If they make their code open source...

If only...

It need a small silicone protection and a more expensive 50 € model with real 500 MSa/s

I'm thinking the next generation of these could be awesome.

If the improvement over the original bar of soap scope is anything to go by then the next model could be a very serious proposition and this company whoever they may be could become a serious contender in the portable scope market ;)

cheers
david
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: snoopy on July 17, 2020, 10:38:30 am
I just bought one too  :palm:

Even with all the lies, bugs and limitations, I find the concept to be excellent.
I sometimes need to "see something" in hard to reach places or when I am not in the lab.
When we just need to see if the clock signal is here or if we have our RS422 pairs at the right place, no need for the big 5000€ scope balanced on the crimping pliers.

The fact that we can increase the battery capacity is great, the big 7" screen is also great, no fan. I hesitated with a handled oscilloscope but I find them very expensive.
If I like the concept, I think it will lead me to buy a Micsig tablet oscilloscope but the small form factor of this little Fnirsi is very very nice.

If they make their code open source, they can sell millions, I think.
It need a small silicone protection and a more expensive 50 € model with real 500 MSa/s

Also what a lot of others have overlooked with this scope is that because it is battery operated you can float the measurements above ground although I wouldn't recommend this when measuring mains equipment for safety reasons !!

cheers
david
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 17, 2020, 10:49:29 am
If the improvement over the original bar of soap scope is anything to go by then the next model could be a very serious proposition and this company whoever they may be could become a serious contender in the portable scope market ;)

The only reason I haven't bought one of these is that if I sell my Rigol DS1054Z and add $140 to the result (the cost of one of these) I'm in Micsig territory. A Micsig would make a lot more sense.

Plus Micsigs have a 4-channel option and I want 4-channel capability somewhere.

(OTOH I've got an Analog Discovery 2 on order so the 4-channel requirement might disappear when that arrives)

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on July 17, 2020, 11:14:02 am
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly.
Nope, 500mV/div max sensitivity using a 10x probe is just inadequate for many requirements.

OK what has siglent got to offer with battery operated, dual channel, 7 inch 800x480 full color touch sensitive display etc ?? And not some iddy biddy 3 inch QVGA BS either !!

What you got ??

cheers
5.7" display and BW's to 200 MHz and some with 1000V CAT II isolation between channels, all 5 mV sensitivity AND a datasheet that can be trusted !

Nothing flash at all but they work as per their spec.

And you don't think 50 mV max sensitivity is piss poor ?  :-//
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 17, 2020, 11:50:07 am
OK what has siglent got to offer with battery operated, dual channel, 7 inch 800x480 full color touch sensitive display etc ??
5.7" display and BW's to 200 MHz and some with 1000V CAT II isolation between channels, all 5 mV sensitivity AND a datasheet that can be trusted !

Just not battery operated or with 7 inch touch display.

Do you even bother reading the posts before replying?  :palm:

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on July 17, 2020, 12:04:57 pm
Siglent SHS800 are battery powered.
This is the first model I looked at when I wanted a portable oscilloscope. But it is too big to be operated by hand, and too expensive as a "small portable bench scope".
The Micsig seems very interesting but too advanced for what I wanted to do.
There is also the Hantek 2C72 but the FNIRSI does just the right thing, 2 channels, large screen and large battery.

This thing cannot and should not be compared to the Siglent or Micsig offer.
And cannot and should not be used as a real scope or to replace a real oscilloscope.
It's just a cheap portable tool that allows you to take measurements very usefull in certain situations.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: snoopy on July 17, 2020, 12:21:35 pm
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly.
Nope, 500mV/div max sensitivity using a 10x probe is just inadequate for many requirements.

OK what has siglent got to offer with battery operated, dual channel, 7 inch 800x480 full color touch sensitive display etc ?? And not some iddy biddy 3 inch QVGA BS either !!

What you got ??

cheers
5.7" display and BW's to 200 MHz and some with 1000V CAT II isolation between channels, all 5 mV sensitivity AND a datasheet that can be trusted !

Nothing flash at all but they work as per their spec.

And you don't think 50 mV max sensitivity is piss poor ?  :-//

How much ??

cheers
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: snoopy on July 17, 2020, 12:29:35 pm
Siglent SHS800 are battery powered.
This is the first model I looked at when I wanted a portable oscilloscope. But it is too big to be operated by hand, and too expensive as a "small portable bench scope".
The Micsig seems very interesting but too advanced for what I wanted to do.
There is also the Hantek 2C72 but the FNIRSI does just the right thing, 2 channels, large screen and large battery.

This thing cannot and should not be compared to the Siglent or Micsig offer.
And cannot and should not be used as a real scope or to replace a real oscilloscope.
It's just a cheap portable tool that allows you to take measurements very usefull in certain situations.

Yes and it's a hell of lot better than having no scope at all !!

For some time I have been looking for a Tek THS7xx scope at a reasonable price. Only monochrome and QVA but have proper isolation between channels but only 30k record depth :( The Tek THS3000 are way to exe but offer 4 channels and full color but still QVGA and 30k record depth. Or the Keysight U1620 which has 2M point record depth going for around $1000 USD if you are lucky to get all of the accessories. However this scope will do me for a while ;) Hopefully we should see some firmware upgrades if people would stop bagging the crap out of it all of the time and instead offer some constructive criticism :(

cheers
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: snoopy on July 17, 2020, 12:32:23 pm
If the improvement over the original bar of soap scope is anything to go by then the next model could be a very serious proposition and this company whoever they may be could become a serious contender in the portable scope market ;)

The only reason I haven't bought one of these is that if I sell my Rigol DS1054Z and add $140 to the result (the cost of one of these) I'm in Micsig territory. A Micsig would make a lot more sense.

Plus Micsigs have a 4-channel option and I want 4-channel capability somewhere.

(OTOH I've got an Analog Discovery 2 on order so the 4-channel requirement might disappear when that arrives)

I have a 1054z tied up doing I2C decoding so this scope becomes useful for the other measurements when I don't want to boot up the Tek TDS7054 all of the time !

cheers
david
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 17, 2020, 12:37:46 pm
I have a 1054z tied up doing I2C decoding so this scope becomes useful for the other measurements when I don't want to boot up the Tek TDS7054 all of the time !

I'm hoping the AD2 can take over the decoding duties.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on July 17, 2020, 01:03:02 pm
Yes it does and in real time  :)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: snoopy on July 17, 2020, 01:23:32 pm
Hey, I just worked out how to turn off the auto triggering level. It's in the system menu  |O This scope just got a lot better  :-+

cheers
david
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 17, 2020, 01:29:52 pm
Got mine yesterday evening, haven't "played with it" a lot yet (it is for certain a toy) of course. However I can confirm the following (in no special order):

So all that said, and as what I will likely use it for (automotive, motorcycles, etc.) does not require an X10 probe or 100 MHz bandwidth, I think I will keep it. It's portability alone makes it a worthwhile tool. I's too bad the makers feel they need to lie about it's specs.

Did I mention it is as cute as a bug's ear?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 17, 2020, 10:39:31 pm
Got mine yesterday evening, haven't "played with it" a lot yet (it is for certain a toy) of course. However I can confirm the following (in no special order):

  • It is as cute as a bug's ear;
  • The capacitive touch screen UI is quite nice, responsive and nicely configured;
  • It triggers properly on aperiodic bursts usin 5 bursts of a 1 MHz pulse at a 100 kHz repetition rate.
  • It does not have a usable bandwidth of anywhere near 100 MHz;
  • In X10 mode and mucking about with the probe's compensation I found I could create an incredibly non-linear "peaky as hell' response that might perhaps pass a 100 MHz signal--this may be how the rice-burners that market it justify their "100 MHz" and "< 3ns" claims;
  • It is as cute as a bug's ear;
  • In X10 mode the vertical input characteristics are different at each sensitivity setting--making X10 mode even more useless;
  • The FFT math function does nothing but provide a vertically constrained, fixed position, non-calibrated, non-adjustable, clipped off at the top picture of the waveform's spectral content--it is more annoying than useful;
  • The battery seems quite capable of meeting the 4 hour runtime claim;
  • The user manual is horrid, tiny, incomplete and obviously written by someone with an only partial command of the English language;
  • It is as cute as a bug's ear;
  • The -3 dB bandwidth in X1 mode (using just a 50 Ω BNC patch cable) is 20 MHz;
  • I have no way of measuring the sample rate, however I seriously doubt it is 1 Gs/s;
  • Within it's real capabilities the display is very nice;
  • It runs well when charging via the supplied wall wart, however when connected to the USB charging station also powering my function generator or my desktop computer it goes haywire--some ground loop issue I suspect;
  • It is as cute as a bug's ear;
  • Mine is branded Yeapook, though in the Amazon ad copy it was shown as being FNIRSI;
So all that said, and as what I will likely use it for (automotive, motorcycles, etc.) does not require an X10 probe or 100 MHz bandwidth, I think I will keep it. It's portability alone makes it a worthwhile tool. I's too bad the makers feel they need to lie about it's specs.

Did I mention it is as cute as a bug's ear?

Would you mind dumping the winbond SPI flash and posting it here? It would definitely help with reverse engineering it! I've ordered one but it's coming on a human-powered boat from China...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 17, 2020, 10:48:44 pm

Would you mind dumping the winbond SPI flash and posting it here? It would definitely help with reverse engineering it! I've ordered one but it's coming on a human-powered boat from China...

I would be pleased to;  how do I go about doing so? What do I need?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 18, 2020, 12:27:35 am
I just bought one too  :palm:

Even with all the lies, bugs and limitations, I find the concept to be excellent.
I sometimes need to "see something" in hard to reach places or when I am not in the lab.
When we just need to see if the clock signal is here or if we have our RS422 pairs at the right place, no need for the big 5000€ scope balanced on the crimping pliers.

The fact that we can increase the battery capacity is great, the big 7" screen is also great, no fan. I hesitated with a handled oscilloscope but I find them very expensive.
If I like the concept, I think it will lead me to buy a Micsig tablet oscilloscope but the small form factor of this little Fnirsi is very very nice.

If they make their code open source, they can sell millions, I think.
It need a small silicone protection and a more expensive 50 € model with real 500 MSa/s

That's pretty much the way I look at it, I have a $360 Hantek 1062B with an actual 60 MHz bandwidth, 1 Gs/s sample rate, 2 mv/div sensitivity, and a real configurable and adjustable FFT function.

It is approximately the same size but has just a 5.7" 640 x 480 display, a cooling fan, and weighs 1.2 kg vs. 707 g for the little guy. It also requires 12 VDC to charge vs. the little fella's nearly ubiquitous 5 VDC requirement.

The Hantek is cute (it would be better with a larger touchscreen):

(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Hantek1062B.jpg)

But not as "cute as a bug's ear":

(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook1013D.jpg)



Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 18, 2020, 12:33:37 am

Would you mind dumping the winbond SPI flash and posting it here? It would definitely help with reverse engineering it! I've ordered one but it's coming on a human-powered boat from China...

I would be pleased to;  how do I go about doing so? What do I need?

Awesome! You'll need a CH341A (preferred) or a Raspberry Pi (any model) or, as a last resource, a blue pill board.

If you don't own any of those devices you could order the CH341A on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/JW-USB-Programmer-CH341A-Burner-Chip-Writer-SOP-Clip-Adapter-EEPROM-BIOS-FLAS/233635841518 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/JW-USB-Programmer-CH341A-Burner-Chip-Writer-SOP-Clip-Adapter-EEPROM-BIOS-FLAS/233635841518)), but in that case I think it's not worth it as I'd probably get my device before you get the programmer. However, if the open-source firmware comes along nicely and you want to flash it, you'll need one of those devices too, so it's not wasted money ;)

In case you own a CH341A, you will need to connect it to the SPI memory and dump it using the provided software.
In case of using a Raspberry Pi, a software called "flashrom" can be used to use the GPIO as the interface to the SPI chip. (https://www.flashrom.org/RaspberryPi (https://www.flashrom.org/RaspberryPi))
With the blue pill board it's more tricky to do.

In all cases, the CPU will need to be held in a reset state in order to free the SPI bus for the programmer to use it. The only other way is physically de soldering the SPI chip from the board.

PD: To hold the CPU in reset, pin 70 needs to be shorted to GND. There's a convenient pad attached to it (https://prnt.sc/tjxfnl (https://prnt.sc/tjxfnl)).
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 18, 2020, 01:22:43 am

Would you mind dumping the winbond SPI flash and posting it here? It would definitely help with reverse engineering it! I've ordered one but it's coming on a human-powered boat from China...

I would be pleased to;  how do I go about doing so? What do I need?

Awesome! You'll need a CH341A (preferred) or a Raspberry Pi (any model) or, as a last resource, a blue pill board.

If you don't own any of those devices you could order the CH341A on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/JW-USB-Programmer-CH341A-Burner-Chip-Writer-SOP-Clip-Adapter-EEPROM-BIOS-FLAS/233635841518 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/JW-USB-Programmer-CH341A-Burner-Chip-Writer-SOP-Clip-Adapter-EEPROM-BIOS-FLAS/233635841518)), but in that case I think it's not worth it as I'd probably get my device before you get the programmer. However, if the open-source firmware comes along nicely and you want to flash it, you'll need one of those devices too, so it's not wasted money ;)

In case you own a CH341A, you will need to connect it to the SPI memory and dump it using the provided software.
In case of using a Raspberry Pi, a software called "flashrom" can be used to use the GPIO as the interface to the SPI chip. (https://www.flashrom.org/RaspberryPi (https://www.flashrom.org/RaspberryPi))
With the blue pill board it's more tricky to do.

In all cases, the CPU will need to be held in a reset state in order to free the SPI bus for the programmer to use it. The only other way is physically de soldering the SPI chip from the board.

PD: To hold the CPU in reset, pin 70 needs to be shorted to GND. There's a convenient pad attached to it (https://prnt.sc/tjxfnl (https://prnt.sc/tjxfnl)).

I do not buy from China via eBay, having been stung too many times after waiting weeks on end. I do see what looks like the same device on Amazon for $8.88 w/ Prime shipping (https://www.amazon.com/Gikfun-Programmer-CH341A-Burner-EEPROM/dp/B01I1EU9LG/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=USB+Programmer+CH341A&qid=1595034129&sr=8-5)

Amazon does not vet it's vendors as well as they could/should, eBay is worse!

I have a CP2102 based USB to TTL interface I have used to update firmware on a JYETech DSO112A. I wonder if that could work, however to be honest as my Parkinson's has advanced over the last year I have become less confident about mucking about on SMD boards with a soldering iron, I would hate to brick my new $160 toy (SWMBO would kill me)...

I will do some research any see if it's something I feel comfortable jumping in to...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 18, 2020, 01:35:37 am

Would you mind dumping the winbond SPI flash and posting it here? It would definitely help with reverse engineering it! I've ordered one but it's coming on a human-powered boat from China...

I would be pleased to;  how do I go about doing so? What do I need?

Awesome! You'll need a CH341A (preferred) or a Raspberry Pi (any model) or, as a last resource, a blue pill board.

If you don't own any of those devices you could order the CH341A on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/JW-USB-Programmer-CH341A-Burner-Chip-Writer-SOP-Clip-Adapter-EEPROM-BIOS-FLAS/233635841518 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/JW-USB-Programmer-CH341A-Burner-Chip-Writer-SOP-Clip-Adapter-EEPROM-BIOS-FLAS/233635841518)), but in that case I think it's not worth it as I'd probably get my device before you get the programmer. However, if the open-source firmware comes along nicely and you want to flash it, you'll need one of those devices too, so it's not wasted money ;)

In case you own a CH341A, you will need to connect it to the SPI memory and dump it using the provided software.
In case of using a Raspberry Pi, a software called "flashrom" can be used to use the GPIO as the interface to the SPI chip. (https://www.flashrom.org/RaspberryPi (https://www.flashrom.org/RaspberryPi))
With the blue pill board it's more tricky to do.

In all cases, the CPU will need to be held in a reset state in order to free the SPI bus for the programmer to use it. The only other way is physically de soldering the SPI chip from the board.

PD: To hold the CPU in reset, pin 70 needs to be shorted to GND. There's a convenient pad attached to it (https://prnt.sc/tjxfnl (https://prnt.sc/tjxfnl)).

I do not buy from China via eBay, having been stung too many times after waiting weeks on end. I do see what looks like the same device on Amazon for $8.88 w/ Prime shipping (https://www.amazon.com/Gikfun-Programmer-CH341A-Burner-EEPROM/dp/B01I1EU9LG/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=USB+Programmer+CH341A&qid=1595034129&sr=8-5)

Amazon does not vet it's vendors as well as they could/should, eBay is worse!

I have a CP2102 based USB to TTL interface I have used to update firmware on a JYETech DSO112A. I wonder if that could work, however to be honest as my Parkinson's has advanced over the last year I have become less confident about mucking about on SMD boards with a soldering iron, I would hate to brick my new $160 toy (SWMBO would kill me)...

I will do some research any see if it's something I feel comfortable jumping in to...

The one in Amazon is the same, but it does not come with the clip connector which is useful in these situations.

That said, there's no smd soldering involved! FNIRSI were kind enough to give us access to all the pins required with standard 2.54mm pin headers (https://prnt.sc/tjxzwj (https://prnt.sc/tjxzwj)). However, I completely understand that you don't want to risk it and kill your brand new oscilloscope :P

That's okay, I'll do it myself when I receive mine, and post full pinouts for every (unpopulated) header in the board, for future reference.

Thanks for the interest!
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 18, 2020, 02:00:48 am

The one in Amazon is the same, but it does not come with the clip connector which is useful in these situations.

That said, there's no smd soldering involved! FNIRSI were kind enough to give us access to all the pins required with standard 2.54mm pin headers (https://prnt.sc/tjxzwj (https://prnt.sc/tjxzwj)). However, I completely understand that you don't want to risk it and kill your brand new oscilloscope :P

That's okay, I'll do it myself when I receive mine, and post full pinouts for every (unpopulated) header in the board, for future reference.

Thanks for the interest!

I just ordered one from Amazon, with the clip connector and some other physical interface devices ($13.58, this one (https://www.amazon.com/AiTrip-EEPROM-Programmer-CH341A-Adapter/dp/B07VNVVXW6/ref=sr_1_24?dchild=1&keywords=USB+Programmer+CH341A&qid=1595037248&refinements=p_85%3A2470955011&rnid=2470954011&rps=1&s=electronics&sr=1-24)). Supposed to be here Monday (evening is when we get deliveries out here "in the county").

I'll see what I can figure out then...


Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 18, 2020, 02:24:38 am
I just ordered one from Amazon, with the clip connector and some other physical interface devices ($13.58, this one (https://www.amazon.com/AiTrip-EEPROM-Programmer-CH341A-Adapter/dp/B07VNVVXW6/ref=sr_1_24?dchild=1&keywords=USB+Programmer+CH341A&qid=1595037248&refinements=p_85%3A2470955011&rnid=2470954011&rps=1&s=electronics&sr=1-24)). Supposed to be here Monday (evening is when we get deliveries out here "in the county").

I'll see what I can figure out then...

Awesome! I'm sure you'll find it useful in other situations too (SPI Flash chips are very common!).

The only thing you will need to solder is a jumper from the pin 70 header to GND, to keep the CPU in reset mode.
(https://i.imgur.com/WpBmtvn.png)

This is the driver + software for the programmer for Windows. I tested it on my machine with Windows 10 x64. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pPrfsr2i2ZM_NXGNXCCLFuscdtjxWvYx/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pPrfsr2i2ZM_NXGNXCCLFuscdtjxWvYx/view?usp=sharing) (I don't recommend to download this software from other sources as some of them are viruses... It took some time to find this working, clean version).
You need to install the driver first, and then run the software. I've included various versions (as they support different chips). Try the latest one, and if it does not work keep trying the other ones until you find one that works. Worst thing that can happen is that the software won't be able to read the chip.

Those are the only steps that are required to read the chip (DO NOT PRESS THE "Auto", "Blank", "Write" OR "Erase" BUTTONS AS THAT WILL ERASE THE CHIP!):
(https://i.imgur.com/Qrknvmj.png)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 18, 2020, 02:43:40 am
The only thing you will need to solder is a jumper from the pin 70 header to GND, to keep the CPU in reset mode.

Looks like there's a GND hole without solder mask 2.54 millimeters to the left right of that.


That said, there's no smd soldering involved! FNIRSI were kind enough to give us access to all the pins required with standard 2.54mm pin headers (https://prnt.sc/tjxzwj (https://prnt.sc/tjxzwj)).

Indeed. This thing was born to be hacked.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 18, 2020, 08:16:07 am

Looks like there's a GND hole without solder mask 2.54 millimeters to the left of that.


That would be cool, I'll just slap a two-pin header strip in there and put a jumper on it...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 18, 2020, 12:55:53 pm
The only thing you will need to solder is a jumper from the pin 70 header to GND, to keep the CPU in reset mode.

Looks like there's a GND hole without solder mask 2.54 millimeters to the left right of that.

From the looks of it, that's not GND... This is a (low-res) picture of the underside:
(https://i.imgur.com/PtFr5C2.png)

Also, @cliffyk, could you take some clear pictures of the LCD ribbon cable and the Touchscreen IC chip? We need to identify them to write their drivers in the Linux Kernel. The pictures on page 1 of the topic does not show them clearly.

Thanks!
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 18, 2020, 01:02:42 pm
From the looks of it, that's not GND... This is a (low-res) picture of the underside:

Seems hard to believe that they'd bring out that pin then put another hole 2.54mm away from it, no solder mask on either hole, but that's not what you're supposed to use.  :-//

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 18, 2020, 01:13:42 pm
[...] Also, @cliffyk, could you take some clear pictures of the LCD ribbon cable and the Touchscreen IC chip? We need to identify them to write their drivers in the Linux Kernel. [...]

There's lots of useful info here: http://nano.lichee.pro/ (http://nano.lichee.pro/) (chinese, use the google translate extension)

Seeing how quick it boots, I'd think it isn't booting uboot then linux, but maybe, perhaps xboot? + rt-thread, and also the simple UI may as well be littlevGL. (follow the links at the url above).
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 18, 2020, 01:24:11 pm
[...] Also, @cliffyk, could you take some clear pictures of the LCD ribbon cable and the Touchscreen IC chip? We need to identify them to write their drivers in the Linux Kernel. [...]

[...] Seeing how quick it boots, I'd think it isn't booting uboot then linux, but maybe, perhaps xboot? + rt-thread, and also the simple UI may as well be littlevGL. [...]

Yeah! I thought about that too (but Linux can be made to boot that fast too, if you try hard enough). However, I'd like to use Linux in the new firmware as it's easier to use overall, and also allows us to use other UIs, like Qt. I still have to see if Qt will run in this little chip. If not, then GTK or LVGL would be my other choices.

There's a guy that has created a bare minimum buildroot configuration for this specific chip, which I'm planning to use as a base.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 18, 2020, 02:27:47 pm
It's not going to be easy, first you've got to be sure you can reverse engineer the interface with the fpga, because without that you're not going anywhere.

P.D. the lichee nano (an F1C100S with a Linux) is $6 at seeedstudio.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 18, 2020, 02:34:11 pm
It's not going to be easy, first you've got to be sure you can reverse engineer the interface with the fpga, because without that you're not going anywhere.

Yeah, I'll have to either reverse engineer the interface with the FPGA, or program the FPGA myself (which is my plan!). I'll of course back up all the SPI memories to be able to restore the scope to factory defaults. The main reason of buying this scope was to write full open-source code for it.

P.D. the lichee nano (an F1C100S with a Linux) is $6 at seeedstudio.

I know, very cheap! I have a Lichee Pi Zero which is quite similar, but a bit more powerful.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 18, 2020, 02:37:29 pm
I know, very cheap! I have a Lichee Pi Zero which is quite similar, but a bit more powerful.

But that's an S3 (V3s?), right?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 18, 2020, 02:58:31 pm
I know, very cheap! I have a Lichee Pi Zero which is quite similar, but a bit more powerful.

But that's an S3 (V3s?), right?

Exactly, it's an S3 with integrated DDR2 memory. It's true that the V3s is a Cortex-A7, while the F1C00S is ARM926EJ-S, so binaries are not compatible. However, building for both is quite similar.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 18, 2020, 05:28:46 pm

Yeah, I'll have to either reverse engineer the interface with the FPGA, or program the FPGA myself (which is my plan!). I'll of course back up all the SPI memories to be able to restore the scope to factory defaults. The main reason of buying this scope was to write full open-source code for it.


I'm very interested to see how this goes.  I started work on open source for an Instek GDS-2000E but then killed the scope in an accident.  I'm trying to get a price on replacing the main board.

Have Fun!
Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 18, 2020, 06:36:56 pm

Yeah, I'll have to either reverse engineer the interface with the FPGA, or program the FPGA myself (which is my plan!). I'll of course back up all the SPI memories to be able to restore the scope to factory defaults. The main reason of buying this scope was to write full open-source code for it.


I'm very interested to see how this goes.  I started work on open source for an Instek GDS-2000E but then killed the scope in an accident.  I'm trying to get a price on replacing the main board.

Have Fun!
Reg

Oh, that's an expensive accident...  :-\ In case of the FNIRSI-1013D, it's practically unkillable (unless you overvolt it, or short something you don't have to). I'm not that good with FPGAs yet, so any help will be appreciated (by me and by all the community, I'm sure) :)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 18, 2020, 07:14:32 pm
I had leads on a header so I could probe the signals without shorting the pins, but then stood the scope up and one of the leads hit the SMPS.  Ouch!

I got insanely lucky and got it new for $255 from Amazon during an old stock clearance.  So I was diligently working on reverse engineering the header, software update process, etc.

My initial goal was simply to crack the UI open so I could fix a bunch of bugs.  But I'd also set up to develop FPGA IP for the Zynq on a Zybo Z-7 board.  Goal was to develop open source FW for Zynq based DSOs.  They have to be very similar so over the course of a couple of years one ought to be able to completely replace the OEM FW on any Zynq based DSO.  Almost certainly not exactly the same, but no worse than dealing with different MMUs used with different CPUs.

If I get a replacement main board for the GDS-2072E I'll use the dead board to reverse engineer the ADC and Zynq wiring.

Has anyone investigated the USB port to see if one can get access via that?  I just learned about these recently.  I've watched a couple of reviews by Dave and another chap, but not read through all the posts here.

Have Fun!
Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 18, 2020, 07:55:08 pm
Has anyone investigated the USB port to see if one can get access via that?  I just learned about these recently.  I've watched a couple of reviews by Dave and another chap, but not read through all the posts here.

The USB port is handled by the Allwinner SOC, and it can work in both host and peripheral mode. I don't know if there's a way to upgrade the firmware directly by copying a file to the USB disk it creates when connected to a computer. If we get our hands on a dump of the firmware we could find it out.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 18, 2020, 08:09:44 pm
I'll send $20 US via PayPal to the first person to post a FW dump.

Have Fun!
Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 18, 2020, 08:27:48 pm
Hi,

Ordered a fnirsi too, should arrive on monday (amazon).
The only reason is to measure the update rate of my scope.
After this, maybe it could be useful for something else.
Can try to read out the winbond chip too, as I got a tl866 here.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 18, 2020, 09:52:46 pm
Here are some results of my testing bandwidth in X1 mode using alligator clips:

10kHz reference (5.04 Vpp):
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/10kHz-00.jpg)

1 MHz (4.99 Vpp -0.087 dB)
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/1MHz-00.jpg)

10 MHz (5.39 Vpp +0.58 dB)
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/10MHz-00.jpg)

20 MHz (4.99 Vpp -0.087 dB)
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/20MHz-00.jpg)

30 MHz (4.36 Vpp -1.26 dB)
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/30MHz-00.jpg)

34 MHz (3.47 Vpp -3.24 dB)
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/34MHz-00.jpg)

So, there it is -3 dB @ 33 to 34 MHz with alligator clips! Not too shabby,,,

Note that the square-wave on CH2 (X1 mode via a 50 Ω patch cable) turned to crap at > 10 MHz, which actually validates the 30+ MHz bandwidth...



Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 18, 2020, 10:50:18 pm
If you can go higher please plot values for a sine wave as I did today in the Rigol DS1202Z-E thread.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1202z-e-entry-level-scope-(200mhz-2-channel)/msg3143092/#msg3143092 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1202z-e-entry-level-scope-(200mhz-2-channel)/msg3143092/#msg3143092)

That will give a much better idea of the usable BW.  For a lot of uses such as HF RF work they seem to be pretty viable even with the attenuation and aliasing at higher frequencies.

Have Fun!
Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 18, 2020, 11:19:01 pm
If you can go higher please plot values for a sine wave as I did today in the Rigol DS1202Z-E thread.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1202z-e-entry-level-scope-(200mhz-2-channel)/msg3143092/#msg3143092 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1202z-e-entry-level-scope-(200mhz-2-channel)/msg3143092/#msg3143092)

That will give a much better idea of the usable BW.  For a lot of uses such as HF RF work they seem to be pretty viable even with the attenuation and aliasing at higher frequencies.

Have Fun!
Reg

My current signal sources (other than my pirate FM station) max out at 60 MHz. Pushing the ADS1013D beyond the 34 MHz I posted just revealed further and relatively linear attenuation (which I view as "a good thing"). It's response does run up (peak) a bit between 10 and 20 MHz, but < 1.0 dB max--comes back down ∼ 22 MHz.

Although, and as I posted in a bulleted list earlier, when using the X10 mode and the supplied HF probe I could "adjust" the probe compensation to create all sorts of peaky responses using pretty solid 25 MHz square-waves. These peaky responses varied with each vertical sensitivity setting making them just useless abnormalities. I think in general the X10 mode in this device is worthless...

 
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 19, 2020, 06:00:58 am
Hey, I just worked out how to turn off the auto triggering level. It's in the system menu  |O This scope just got a lot better  :-+

The menu system is weird.  It's also where you set / unset the FFT function.  A somewhat bizarre FFT, too...

Did you figure out the fast/slow setting near the top that changes responsiveness to the (single-point) screen movement?  The single-tap on the left or right on screen to alter the time-base.  (I could not figure this out for ages... gah!)

It has very basic functionality and works adequately within those limitations.  The vertical accuracy on mine is way off, though, so you should check that against something else if you intend on believing what it claims.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 19, 2020, 06:48:42 am
34 MHz (3.47 Vpp -3.24 dB)
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/34MHz-00.jpg)

So, there it is -3 dB @ 33 to 34 MHz with alligator clips! Not too shabby,,,

Note that the square-wave on CH2 (X1 mode via a 50 Ω patch cable) turned to crap at > 10 MHz, which actually validates the 30+ MHz bandwidth...

My results seemed a little better: this is 3 Vpp at 50 kHz and 50 MHz, ~2.3 dB down.  I was using a calibrator with active heads directly attached to this instrument, though.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=996729)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=996737)

Cabling can cause lots of degradation, and alligator clips is not ideal for high frequency.

Edit: can't math properly.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 19, 2020, 08:09:46 am
Hey, I just worked out how to turn off the auto triggering level. It's in the system menu  |O This scope just got a lot better  :-+

The menu system is weird.  It's also where you set / unset the FFT function.  A somewhat bizarre FFT, too...

Did you figure out the fast/slow setting near the top that changes responsiveness to the (single-point) screen movement?  The single-tap on the left or right on screen to alter the time-base.  (I could not figure this out for ages... gah!)

It has very basic functionality and works adequately within those limitations.  The vertical accuracy on mine is way off, though, so you should check that against something else if you intend on believing what it claims.

My first 'scope was a Bell & Howell Model 34 recurrent sweep monstrosity I got for Christmas when I was 10 or 11 (1956 or '57; I wanted so badly to "see" electricity and my parents indulged me). It came from a local junk/pawn shop, and maybe cost $5--likely pawned by someone who got a VA "TV Repair" grant.

Because of that harrowing experience and years of experience with analog 'scopes I have never considered vertical accuracy to be worth a damn and rarely consider it as other than a rough indicator of what's going on.

It is not possible for an  8-bit digital scope to have especially good vertical accuracy anyway--I have access to a Lecroy Waverunner 204 Xi. it's vertical accuracy spec is  ±1.5% (Of full scale); same as my WaveJet 322...

The digital readouts displaying hundredths of a volt are total eyewash...





Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 19, 2020, 08:12:26 am

My results seemed a little better: this is 3 Vpp at 50 kHz and 50 MHz, ~2.3 dB down.  I was using a calibrator with active heads directly Cabling can cause lots of degradation, and alligator clips is not ideal for high frequency.


Yeah, I was deliberately presenting it with a worst-case scenario...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 19, 2020, 08:44:53 am
Something I just ran across, there is no triggered sweep at slower than 10 ms/division--that could be a deal breaker for me.

According to the manual it's not supposed to go into "scroll mode" 'til 100 ms/div, but at 20 ms/div the trigger position and level indicators go away and it devolves into some recurrent sweep sort of mode...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 19, 2020, 09:27:30 am
I'll send $20 US via PayPal to the first person to post a FW dump.

There you go, a FW dump:

[attachurl=1]

Paypal: me@my.com
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 19, 2020, 09:49:26 am
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/10MHz-00.jpg)

Ohh, so the "3ns rise time" looks more like "30ns rise time", LOL. What a waste. It's a pity because @200MSps that could look much much better with a decent front end. Maybe the software of this one is the least of the problems.

Can anybody post a "dots" display mode of that WF, so we can count the dots?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 19, 2020, 11:10:10 am
Ohh, so the "3ns rise time" looks more like "30ns rise time", LOL. What a waste. It's a pity because @200MSps that could look much much better with a decent front end. Maybe the software of this one is the least of the problems.

That's what we're figuring out.

So far it seems like the capacitance in a 1x probe compensates for the front end and makes it a workable 30MHz 'scope (low pass filter).

The nest step would be to work out the ideal capacitance (for max bandwidth), add a capacitor internally, go back to using 10x probes.

This fix would mean you can place a lot more trust in what's on-screen. If it's 30Mhz then 30Mhz it is. There's nothing wrong with that at this price and with 200MSamples/sec you get a decent bandwidth:sample rate ratio.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on July 19, 2020, 11:42:42 am
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/10MHz-00.jpg)

Ohh, so the "3ns rise time" looks more like "30ns rise time", LOL. What a waste. It's a pity because @200MSps that could look much much better with a decent front end. Maybe the software of this one is the least of the problems.

Can anybody post a "dots" display mode of that WF, so we can count the dots?

With my old but experienced eyes risetime looks more like 17ns than 30ns.
with 200MSa/s it have in this image 10 samples per div, 3.4sample in 10-90% rise time.



Roughly we can say what is needed realtime single shot sampling speed for measure rising time in signal under measure (rtum). (when analog BW is "enough").
Result is MSa/s
5000/rtum for quite accurate risetime measurements
3500/rtum for medium quality measurements
1750/rtum for only poor accuracy measurement or "looking around for fun"
1250/rtum very poor accuracy, useless for measurements

Old demonstrations for some tiny teaching purposes
(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X/c90-trise-1250-25ns-50MSa-t.png)
1.25s for edge rising time (10 - 90%)

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X/c91-trise-1750-35ns-50MSa-t.png)
1.75s for edge rising time

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X/c92-trise-3500-70ns-50MSa-t.png)
3.5s for edge risetime(still there can see 10 and 90% points have some time jitter for risetime measurements purposes

No image for 5s for edge. There is no sampling interval based errors when mesurement are specified for 10 and 90%.

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X/KuvaD-RisingEdge-640--250-1GSa--3ns-at.png)
just for thinking.

------------------------------------
Personally I can not understand at all why so small amount of noise and ranting is about this "1GSa/s  100MHz" total hoax - fraud. Totally shameful outrageous scam if it is just as in Dave's video and HW is like displayed and if it is true what ADC there is. Also some tests support the assumption that there is max 200MSa/s.
Here in China I can see it selling in many places, example Jingdong, also Tmall/Taobao and all these claim they have quite tight rules for scams.  How long they can continue this hoax. Everywhere they advertise it 100MHz oscilloscope with 1GSa/s samplerate.  Why peoples accept it. Example here in China is quite strong customer protection system IF customers know how to use it. But looks more like "who knows...who cares".  This kind of business peoples do not think anything but what is money coming today to pocket and after soon they hide and escape and start some other hoax. Why they do not sell chickens. There is less numerical specifications what can easy check and test. Only need take the stones out from stomach before weighing and tell final price.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 19, 2020, 12:17:17 pm
Would you mind dumping the winbond SPI flash and posting it here?
attached...

You'll need a CH341A (preferred)...
This is totally shit programmer...
I bought EZP2019+... Each reading get different result...
After that order SP16-B (www.sofi-tech.com (http://www.sofi-tech.com)) this one read stable.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 12:54:40 pm
Here are the horizontal and vertical settings from the FW image:

Vertical settings:

5V/div
2.5V/div
500mV/div
200mV/div
100mV/div
50mV/div
25V/div
10V/div
2V/div
1V/div
500V/div
250V/div
100V/div
50V/div
20V/div

Horizontal settings:

50S/div
20S/div
10S/div
5S/div
2S/div
1S/div
500mS/div
200mS/div
100mS/div
50mS/div
20mS/div
10mS/div
5mS/div
2mS/div
1mS/div
500uS/div
200uS/div
100uS/div
50uS/div
20uS/div
10uS/div
5uS/div
2uS/div
1uS/div
500nS/div
250nS/div
100nS/div
50nS/div
25nS/div
10nS/div

Apparently 4 rebranders:

UTX-1013.bin
FSI-1013.bin
YPK-1013.bin
DAN-1013.bin

It appears to be an AD9288:

AD9288
AD9288_1
AD9288_2
AD9288_1_2

I'm guessing that the last is a reference to merging all 4 channels into one. So there may be variants which implement that.

Does anyone have a disassembler for the chip?  If the compiler doesn't do a lot of optimization then it might be possible to write C code from reading the disassembly and incrementally start reverse engineering source code for it.

Have Fun!
Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 19, 2020, 01:18:40 pm
It appears to be an AD9288:
Yep, I said it before...

I'm guessing that the last is a reference to merging all 4 channels into one. So there may be variants which implement that.
They don't have hardware support to merge all 4 channels into one...

Does anyone have a disassembler for the chip?
IDA Pro, Ghidra... it is ARM9 core
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 19, 2020, 02:01:02 pm
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/10MHz-00.jpg)

Ohh, so the "3ns rise time" looks more like "30ns rise time", LOL. What a waste. It's a pity because @200MSps that could look much much better with a decent front end. Maybe the software of this one is the least of the problems.

Can anybody post a "dots" display mode of that WF, so we can count the dots?

It does not have a "raw point" display mode, only interpolated x/sin(x) "vector" mode....
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 19, 2020, 02:02:47 pm
Personally I can not understand at all why so small amount of noise and ranting is about this "1GSa/s  100MHz" total hoax - fraud. Totally shameful outrageous scam if it is just as in Dave's video and HW is like displayed and if it is true what ADC there is.

Are you in a position to do anything about it?

We're busy hacking it into something useful.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 19, 2020, 02:04:03 pm
Does anyone have a disassembler for the chip?
IDA Pro, Ghidra... it is ARM9 core

The main chip is this:

https://linux-sunxi.org/images/b/ba/F1C100s_Datasheet_V1.0.pdf

ARM9 with built-in display controller.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 19, 2020, 02:31:01 pm
Code: [Select]
0030ba0: f001 bde8 0000 a0e3 0082 bde8 1cd0 8de2  ................
0030bb0: f001 bde8 0100 a0e3 0082 bde8 0060 7380  .............`s.
0030bc0: 01ff ff00 01ff ff80 7377 6974 6368 2069  ........switch i
0030bd0: 6e74 6f20 6869 6768 2073 7065 6564 206d  nto high speed m
0030be0: 6f64 6520 2121 210d 0a00 0000 04e0 2de5  ode !!!.......-.
0030bf0: 8bdf 4de2 0120 a0e3 ac10 8fe2 0d00 a0e1  ..M.. ..........

Any idea what's that?

Code: [Select]
004d330: e13f a0e3 b0c0 d0e1 9b00 5ce3 1900 009a  .?........\.....
004d340: 0110 81e2 0c20 82e0 0118 c1e3 1800 00ea  ..... ..........
004d350: ccaf 1880 506c 6561 7365 2069 6e73 6572  ....Please inser
004d360: 7420 7465 7374 2063 6c69 7020 616e 6420  t test clip and
004d370: 7072 6573 7320 4f4b 2074 6f20 636f 6e74  press OK to cont
004d380: 696e 7565 2021 0000 9ced 1880 5901 0000  inue !......Y...
004d390: 4f4b 0000 7227 1980 58cd 1980 02b8 1a80  OK..r'..X.......
004d3a0: cdcc 0000 72cf 1a80 0180 8be2 0ca0 8ae0  ....r...........
004d3b0: 01b8 c8e3 0130 53e2 0200 80e2 dcff ff1a  .....0S.........

And this?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 02:36:12 pm
Who assured that the FW is only the SPI mem contents?

It only has a bootloader, a small app and a bitmap...   ::)

I only opened it with a hex-editor but I think something is missing...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 02:41:17 pm
attached...

Thanks! It looks like it's not Linux in this case. But can be easily ported!

This is totally shit programmer...

It works fine for me! I used it in different situations, bios flash, firmware dump, etc and never had any problems :)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 02:43:10 pm
I realized that Dave thought it was an AD9288, but the chips had been sanded off.  My point was confirmation from the binary image.

Does anyone recognize the filesystem?  It doesn't appear to be UBI which is the only flash filesystem I have any familiarity with, and that is *very* little.

There's a string "F1C100S  XiaoTaoQi  Disk 1.0 " but a search with google didn't turn anything up other than a translation to "Rascal Disk 1.0".

There are these strings:

/pic_system.sys
/piclist.sys
/wave_system.sys
/wavelist.sys
eGON.BMP
eGON.EXE

If we can mount the filesystem we should be able to start disassembling the code and making variable maps to identify major sections of the code.

Have Fun!
Reg

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 02:44:14 pm
Who assured that the FW is only the SPI mem contents?

The F1C100s has no internal memory, only RAM, so it must be in flash. Normally they run Linux, but in this case they must be using something else (somebody suggested XBoot paired with other software). It makes sense as the flash chip is only 2MB, Linux won't fit in there.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 02:48:09 pm
I realized that Dave thought it was an AD9288, but the chips had been sanded off.  My point was confirmation from the binary image.

Does anyone recognize the filesystem?  It doesn't appear to be UBI which is the only flash filesystem I have any familiarity with, and that is *very* little.


I've tried Binwalk and it's not recognizing anything from the binary... We'll have to do some more research...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 02:52:00 pm
"F1C100S  XiaoTaoQi  Disk 1.0" inside.

https://linux-sunxi.org/images/b/ba/F1C100s_Datasheet_V1.0.pdf (https://linux-sunxi.org/images/b/ba/F1C100s_Datasheet_V1.0.pdf)

There is a big part that looks obfuscated (starting around offset 0x184C80).
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 19, 2020, 02:53:07 pm
Does it come with an SDCard or is the SD slot empty?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 02:55:27 pm
Does it come with an SDCard or is the SD slot empty?

It comes with a 2GB SDCard I think.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 02:59:06 pm
"F1C100S  XiaoTaoQi  Disk 1.0" inside.

I was just thinking. This could be part of the USB descriptor table. When you plug it in to a PC, it shows up as a USB drive. Anyone with the scope can check it on device manager.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 02:59:41 pm
pic_system.sys appears to be a touchscreen library by a company call JuTouch.  The server doesn't seem to be accessible, but google had this cached:

Comprehensive system support. Supporting wide variety of operating systems (Linux, Windows, IOS, and Android). pic_system. About JuTouch

Haven't found anything else that looks likely for the other stuff.  It's obviously not a quantum computer nor a video game.  piclist.sys did produce a hit on a Chinese Python library but google translate just briefly showed it in Chinese and then blanked the screen.  I think it's an OCR library though.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 03:00:34 pm
The F1C100s has no internal memory, only RAM, so it must be in flash. Normally they run Linux, but in this case they must be using something else (somebody suggested XBoot paired with other software). It makes sense as the flash chip is only 2MB, Linux won't fit in there.

So it's a F1C100 proc with all the FW in the SPI mem.

There is no filesystem, outside the SD Card. There is only an app launched by the secondary bootloader (SPL block).

They simplified also by not having to deal with FW upgrades...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 19, 2020, 03:00:58 pm
Does it come with an SDCard or is the SD slot empty?
It comes with a 2GB SDCard I think.

Might as well be booting from there, then, no?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 19, 2020, 03:02:43 pm
Personally I can not understand at all why so small amount of noise and ranting is about this "1GSa/s  100MHz" total hoax - fraud. Totally shameful outrageous scam if it is just as in Dave's video and HW is like displayed and if it is true what ADC there is.

Are you in a position to do anything about it?

We're busy hacking it into something useful.

I have written scathing reviews on Amazon, for both the product and the vendors of this and the "bar of soap" ADS 5012 model, however they do not seem to care. Yeapook is a brand name of Shenzhen Yipu Commercial and Trading Co., Ltd however I have not been able to determine if they are indeed the manufacturer of this device. The only contact info I have found is their snail-mail address.

As far as I can determine there is no online support for the product. I have contacted the vendor fom whom i purchased it (Ccfoud-US via Amazon) but have had no response. It was however a "fulfilled by Amazon"item so it can go back if I find it to not meet even my modest needs.

We'll see...

I have also determined that there is no triggered operation at sweeps slower than 10 ms/div. The scroll mode does work at 100ms/div and slower but it is just a non-triggered unsynchronized repetitive left to right sweep that would be of little to no use capturing aperiodic single-shot events unless you were to continuously monitor it and manually stop the capture when you "got one; and IF the event does not occur during the "retrace" period.

To be fair, my Hantek DSO1062B also does not have triggered operation in "scroll mode". The Lecroy WJ 322 does. but that's a $2000 instrument.

It is still "as cute as a bug's ear", but it may be going back...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 03:03:58 pm
"F1C100S  XiaoTaoQi  Disk 1.0" inside.

https://linux-sunxi.org/images/b/ba/F1C100s_Datasheet_V1.0.pdf (https://linux-sunxi.org/images/b/ba/F1C100s_Datasheet_V1.0.pdf)

There is a big part that looks obfuscated (starting around offset 0x184C80).

I did not find the string in the datasheet.  The apparently obfuscated part may be the FPGA bitstream.  However, there is a string "Encrypt" in the image.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 19, 2020, 03:05:02 pm
Does it come with an SDCard or is the SD slot empty?

It comes with a 2GB SDCard I think.

Mine came with a SanDisk 1 GB card...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 03:06:15 pm
It comes with a 2GB SDCard I think.

Might as well be booting from there, then, no?

I still don't have the scope with me, but I did read somewhere that the SDCard only contained the screenshots and saved data.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 03:08:32 pm
The F1C200s is the same as F1C100s, but with double the RAM. All the registers are the same, so this user manual applies to our chip too:
https://www.thirtythreeforty.net/posts/2020/02/trying-the-allwinner-f1c200s/Allwinner_F1C200s_User_Manual_V1.1.pdf (https://www.thirtythreeforty.net/posts/2020/02/trying-the-allwinner-f1c200s/Allwinner_F1C200s_User_Manual_V1.1.pdf)

It contains all the CPU and Peripherals registers and descriptions about them. Might be useful to use with Ghidra.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 03:09:43 pm
I did not find the string in the datasheet.  The apparently obfuscated part may be the FPGA bitstream.  However, there is a string "Encrypt" in the image.

Reg, the string is in the FW. Some guys call "encrypt" to simple obfuscation methods. The pattern that I refer to doesn't seem to be a "standard" encryption output. But...

Yes, I also noticed that there is no "clear" FPGA block in the FW.

Does the scope have any FPGA? Which?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 03:11:04 pm
The F1C200s is the same as F1C100s, but with double the RAM. All the registers are the same, so this user manual applies to our chip too:
https://www.thirtythreeforty.net/posts/2020/02/trying-the-allwinner-f1c200s/Allwinner_F1C200s_User_Manual_V1.1.pdf (https://www.thirtythreeforty.net/posts/2020/02/trying-the-allwinner-f1c200s/Allwinner_F1C200s_User_Manual_V1.1.pdf)

It contains all the CPU and Peripherals registers and descriptions about them. Might be useful to use with Ghidra.

https://linux-sunxi.org/F1C100s (https://linux-sunxi.org/F1C100s)

http://www.allwinnertech.com/index.php?c=product&a=index&id=73 (http://www.allwinnertech.com/index.php?c=product&a=index&id=73)

Allwinner's in-house operating system Melis 2.00

This (https://github.com/steward-fu/miyoo) guy managed to insert linux OS on a machine running Melis OS (and with a Allwinner F1C500S chip).
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 19, 2020, 03:13:01 pm
Does it come with an SDCard or is the SD slot empty?

It comes with a 2GB SDCard I think.

Mine came with a SanDisk 1 GB card...

Does it boot w/o the card? Can you have a look and tell us what's in the card? Ideally, partitions, filesystem types, and start blocks too :-)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 03:14:14 pm
Does it boot w/o the card? Can you have a look and tell us what's in the card?

It has to. The card is extra.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 03:16:15 pm
The FPGA is an Altera part, but I don't recall the version from Dave's video.

I found this in the image at two different locations.  Does anyone recognize the byte pattern?

rhb@Hipster:/export/home/rhb/Downloads/fnirsi$ head bb bbb
==> bb <==
0060000 006  \0  \0 352   e   G   O   N   .   E   X   E  \0  \0  \0  \0
0060020  \0   t  \0  \0   E   X   E   C  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0
0060040 333 360   ! 343   X   П  ** 345 327 360   ! 343   T   П  ** 345
0060060 322 360   ! 343   P   П  ** 345 321 360   ! 343   L   П  ** 345
0060100 337 360   ! 343   H   П  ** 345 323 360   ! 343   D   П  ** 345
0060120 020 017 021 356 002  \n 300 343 020 017 001 356   8  \0 237 345
0060140 020   / 021 356 002   * 022 342  \0 020 240 003   , 020 237 025

==> bbb <==
0470000 006  \0  \0 352   e   G   O   N   .   E   X   E  \0  \0  \0  \0
0470020  \0   2 031  \0   E   X   E   C  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0
0470040 333 360   ! 343   X   П  ** 345 327 360   ! 343   T   П  ** 345
0470060 322 360   ! 343   P   П  ** 345 321 360   ! 343   L   П  ** 345
0470100 337 360   ! 343   H   П  ** 345 323 360   ! 343   D   П  ** 345
0470120 020 017 021 356 002  \n 300 343 020 017 001 356   8  \0 237 345
0470140 020   / 021 356 002   * 022 342  \0 020 240 003   , 020 237 025

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 03:19:08 pm
It has 4 blocks:

00000000 - SPL (secondary bootloader)
00006000 - 1st executable (OS part that deals with the SD card)
00013000 - bitmap
00027000 - 2nd executable (main app)

My best guesses ATM.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 03:36:17 pm
It has 4 blocks:

00000000 - SPL (secondary bootloader)
00006000 - 1st executable (OS part that deals with the SD card)
00013000 - bitmap
00027000 - 2nd executable (main app)

My best guesses ATM.

ATM?  I shudder to think what google will return for that.  Can you explain?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 03:37:08 pm
Function at 0x00042830 seems to be an init/hardware check function. It calls a function related to the FPGA, which if it fails, prints "FPGA Failed" through the serial port or some sort of log file.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 03:38:41 pm
It has 4 blocks:

00000000 - SPL (secondary bootloader)
00006000 - 1st executable (OS part that deals with the SD card)
00013000 - bitmap
00027000 - 2nd executable (main app)

My best guesses ATM.

ATM?  I shudder to think what google will return for that.  Can you explain?

ATM = At The Moment ;P
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 19, 2020, 03:38:52 pm
...I think something is missing...
Something what? there is no another flash... that is a full dump of SPI flash...

Does anyone recognize the filesystem?
this is a plain binary file... not filesystem...
at start executing standard initialization... stack pointers for different modes... initializing ram.. etc

There is a big part that looks obfuscated (starting around offset 0x184C80).
it is not obfuscated... it is some table... note values coming in ascending order.
it looks more as a map, unicode characters conversion table.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 03:43:15 pm
it is not obfuscated... it is some table... note values coming in ascending order.
it looks more as a map, unicode characters conversion table.

No way, it looks obfuscated. There are very few "clear" strings...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 03:44:56 pm
Can someone post a disassembly?  I should be able to identify all the function and variable addresses with a bit of awk.  That will also tell us if the "obfuscated" section is a bitstream.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 03:48:51 pm
Can someone post a disassembly?

I'm away from my dev station...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 19, 2020, 03:53:52 pm
Does it come with an SDCard or is the SD slot empty?
Yep, 1GB... I've tried 32GB (FAT32) working!
without card if you try to save anything, device will hang...

...I did read somewhere that the SDCard only contained the screenshots and saved data.
Yep, only for screenshots and saved data.

Does it boot w/o the card? Can you have a look and tell us what's in the card? Ideally, partitions, filesystem types, and start blocks too :-)
Yep, working without SD... but hangs if you try to save.

No way, it looks obfuscated. There are very few "clear" strings...
My 20 years of experience in reverse engineering tells me that this is a table, not a code. But I will know for sure only when I reach that place.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 03:55:23 pm
When someone can post a disassembly I'll make tables of the caller:callee relationships among the functions and map the global variable addresses.  If we can get documentation for the JuTouch library we should have a pretty good grip on it.

https://www.jutouch.com/ (https://www.jutouch.com/)

They say to contact sales for the driver software.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 03:57:40 pm
If we can get documentation for the JuTouch library we should have a pretty good grip on it.

I think it's easier for somebody to just open the device up and tell us the which chip is the touchscreen using, then just writing the driver for it (which for sure is already available in GitHub)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 04:00:28 pm
The JuTouch library will give important hints about what the rest of the code does.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 04:03:54 pm
My 20 years of experience in reverse engineering tells me that this is a table, not a code. But I will know for sure only when I reach that place.

My 5 minutes look at that part shows an incrementing pattern (with contiguous 0x400 bytes size blocks). That doesn't look like a unicode characters conversion table. I could be wrong...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 19, 2020, 04:09:21 pm
It is still "as cute as a bug's ear", but it may be going back...

Imagine all the fun you'll miss out on.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 19, 2020, 04:14:54 pm
My 5 minutes look at that part shows an incrementing pattern (with contiguous 0x400 bytes size blocks). That doesn't look like a unicode characters conversion table. I could be wrong...
Maybe we talk about different places?
Because I don't see any 0x400 bytes size blocks... In that case I will asume that this is a memory mapping table...
But this is what I see
(https://i.ibb.co/jbnd0y1/20200720000935.png) (https://ibb.co/jbnd0y1)
PS: This is a Little Endian...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 04:20:16 pm
That section is broken up in  chunks of various sizes delimited by zeros.  This is strongly suggestive of a bitstream for the FPGA. If that's the case there will be a bit of assembly code that sits in  loop incrementing a pointer through that section reading and then writing the contents to the FPGA load address.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 19, 2020, 04:43:34 pm
But the fpga has another spi flash chip.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 05:04:22 pm
But the fpga has another spi flash chip.

I think that's an I2C EEPROM, judging by the two pull-up resistors on two of the pins.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 19, 2020, 05:25:23 pm
It comes with a 2GB SDCard I think.

Might as well be booting from there, then, no?

I still don't have the scope with me, but I did read somewhere that the SDCard only contained the screenshots and saved data.

As originally designed and configured that is correct...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 05:31:12 pm
If that's the case there will be a bit of assembly code that sits in  loop incrementing a pointer through that section reading and then writing the contents to the FPGA load address.

That is almost certainly wrong.  The Zynq at least has it's own facility for loading the bitstream from flash.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 19, 2020, 05:34:44 pm
But the fpga has another spi flash chip.

I think that's an I2C EEPROM, judging by the two pull-up resistors on two of the pins.

Well, maybe, but my point is/was, isn't that the eeprom that contains the fpga bitstream? And if so, it's not going to be in the other eeprom too, right?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 19, 2020, 05:37:56 pm
This is strongly suggestive of a bitstream for the FPGA.
FPGA has another standalone chip... as wrote @GeorgeOfTheJungle

But the fpga has another spi flash chip.
IC which you mark is I2C, name is erased...
and the IC a little bit left, is also SPI 25P16VP, and connectors on left (6pin top, and 4pin bottom is to program them)
Both of them connected to FPGA only...

By the way
Touch IC is GOODIX GT915
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 05:42:47 pm

Well, maybe, but my point is/was, isn't that the eeprom that contains the fpga bitstream? And if so, it's not going to be in the other eeprom too, right?

Oh, the FPGA bitstream is definitely in the other SPI NOR located to the left of this misterious EEPROM. The Allwinner CPU does not send it.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 19, 2020, 05:47:41 pm
But the fpga has another spi flash chip.
IC which you mark is I2C, name is erased...
and the IC a little bit left, is also SPI 25P16VP, and connectors on left (6pin top, and 4pin bottom is to program them)

Where will my glasses be?  :-DD
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 19, 2020, 06:24:59 pm
Here is the dump of ST 25P16VP... (this is FPGA stream data and connected to dedicated FPGA pins)
I don't think that it is useful for anyone, just let it be for history...
I2C I guess for store settings.
https://mega.nz/file/MGY3FI5b#wURGvOJB9Zb6dqilI2w5TRbJWrP3fHHG5muqNXtb-r4
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 19, 2020, 06:31:59 pm
That is almost certainly wrong.  The Zynq at least has it's own facility for loading the bitstream from flash.

Yes but that would mean two flash chips.

(ie. more expensive)

But the fpga has another spi flash chip.

I think that's an I2C EEPROM, judging by the two pull-up resistors on two of the pins.

I2C EEPROM would be used for storing calibration, atc.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 19, 2020, 07:16:53 pm
Here is the input channel...
screenshot from here (made by St_dsk )
https://mysku.ru/blog/aliexpress/80036.html
quality of picture is not good  :(
(https://i.ibb.co/mHXFkXR/bddbbe.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mHXFkXR)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 07:24:49 pm
Well, I got Ghidra 9.1.2 to run, but it does not grok ARM V9.  So where to from here?

Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 07:56:08 pm
Here is the dump of ST 25P16VP... (this is FPGA stream data and connected to dedicated FPGA pins)
I don't think that it is useful for anyone, just let it be for history...
I2C I guess for store settings.

Also for history, here is the parsing of this dump (.RBF file) header:

Code: [Select]
WARNING: the .RBF file has the bytes bit-reversed!  Reversing...
FPGA - RBF/RPD (Raw Binary File) - Filesize: 16 777 216 bits (00200000 bytes)
00000000 - Start of File  (Type 1)

         [00000048                      00000021]
Bit 7  - 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111       FFFFFFFFFF
Bit 6  - 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111       FFFFFFFFFF
Bit 5  - 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111       FFFFFFFFFF
Bit 4  - 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111       FFFFFFFFFF
Bit 3  - 1111111111111111111111111110111010000000       FFFFFFEE80
Bit 2  - 0000011100110011001011111000000000111111       07332F803F
Bit 1  - 1100000000000111100011000000010111111111       C0078C05FF
Bit 0  - 0000000000010101000100010110110111111111       0015116DFF
Bits 0080 - EPCS/EPCQ ID check: Enabled
Bits 005F - Stream size: 943 711 bits  (0001CCCC bytes)  Compression Bit ON  (+1)       Size NOT OK
Bits 0056 - 0000 0000 : 0x56-0x5D
Bits 004C - Programming Mode: Active Serial (AS x1)
Bits 003B - IDCode (Version+Part Number only): 0x020F1  (-> 0x024F1)
Bits 0008 - Usercode: 0015116D
00000049 - Header CRC-16_MODBUS: 0033  [00000021-00000048]        CRC OK
0000004B - Data Framesize: 207  [0000004B-000000F1]
000000F2 - 4-byte words: 1260  [000000F2-000014A1]
00000000 - Stream Size (Uncompressed): 15 610 872 bits
000014A2 - CRC Framesize: 207+0     # Data Frames: 1727  [000014A2-00059D4F]
Start address: 00000000
00059D50 - Post-device bitstream pad bytes (0xFF): 1583407  [00059D50-001DC67E]
File Checksum: 1E469589

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 08:29:30 pm
Blocks:  (UPDATE)

Offset:      Size:
00000000 00003400 - SPL (secondary bootloader)
00006000 00007400 - 1st executable (OS part that deals with the SD card)  (?)
00013000 0000E600 - bitmap
00027000 00193200 - 2nd executable (main app)  (?)
 
(the 1st 32 bytes of each block are its header) In the header, at offset 0x10, there is the size of the block (including header).

SPL has a Load Address = 0x00000000
The executables have a Load Address = 0x80000000


A teaser function in the attached file.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: ace1903 on July 19, 2020, 08:32:42 pm
@ rhb
ARM V9 != ARM9

ARM9 is old architecture and it should be supported in Ghidra.
The latest architecture from ARM when I checked a couple of years ago was ARM v8.
Not sure if v9 is released yet.
Also note that ARM9 is also older than Cortex A9.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 09:04:49 pm
What's the architecture I should select?  ARM's nomenclature has driven me crazy for years and I'm the kind of person who bought processor manuals for new chips e.g. R2000, i860, 68000.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 09:07:04 pm
Here is a LOT of interesting stuff for those that want to develop something:

http://dl.linux-sunxi.org/ (http://dl.linux-sunxi.org/)
http://dl.linux-sunxi.org/allwinner/ (http://dl.linux-sunxi.org/allwinner/)
http://dl.linux-sunxi.org/SDK/ (http://dl.linux-sunxi.org/SDK/)

F1C100 processor (http://dl.linux-sunxi.org/F1C100/Allwinner_F1C100_datasheet_20110331.pdf)

http://dl.linux-sunxi.org/SDK/A80/A80_SDK_20140728_stripped/lichee/linux-3.4/drivers/usb/sunxi_usb/udc/sunxi_udc.c (http://dl.linux-sunxi.org/SDK/A80/A80_SDK_20140728_stripped/lichee/linux-3.4/drivers/usb/sunxi_usb/udc/sunxi_udc.c) - Similar to some functions in the scope
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 09:09:06 pm
What's the architecture I should select?

ARM Little endian with the load addresses that I've previously indicated, after stripping the 32 byte headers!
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 09:22:11 pm
What's the architecture I should select?

ARM Little endian with the load addresses that I've previously indicated, after stripping the 32 byte headers!

Not clear what you mean by "stripping the 32 byte headers".  Could you give a novice a more detailed description?

Once I can decompile the whole thing I should be able to discover quite a lot.  I haven't attacked a completely undocumented code in 30 years, but that was how I was introduced to C & Unix.  A 5000 line C code which didn't work correctly on a little endian machine.  It had 2 comments both of which read

/* handling special cases */

thanks,
Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 09:45:27 pm
Well, I got Ghidra 9.1.2 to run, but it does not grok ARM V9.  So where to from here?

Reg

ARM V4T little endian
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 19, 2020, 09:46:57 pm
What's the architecture I should select?

ARM Little endian with the load addresses that I've previously indicated, after stripping the 32 byte headers!

Not clear what you mean by "stripping the 32 byte headers".  Could you give a novice a more detailed description?

Once I can decompile the whole thing I should be able to discover quite a lot.  I haven't attacked a completely undocumented code in 30 years, but that was how I was introduced to C & Unix.  A 5000 line C code which didn't work correctly on a little endian machine.  It had 2 comments both of which read

/* handling special cases */

thanks,
Reg

Read and process this msg (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/msg3145054/#msg3145054).

Attached is the start of the 2nd executable loaded as I explained before (as seen in IDA Pro).
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 10:08:20 pm
I selected "ARM v4t little endian" and Ghidra is thinking about it.  Probably wrong, but I just fed it the entire file. I can always go back and do it over in pieces.

From the look of it Ghidra may already do the stuff I was going to do.  But we'll see.  It's about time I learned more about this.  It makes for considerable incentive to get a sacrificial GDS-2072E either by means of a new board or buying another along with a Siglent SDS-1104X. The fact that NSA created Ghidra greatly increases my enthusiasm for this.  IDA Pro is a bit pricey for my purposes at least for now.  And I'd really rather focus on analog front end design.

Have Fun!
Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 19, 2020, 10:13:55 pm
ARM V4T little endian
actually
CPU: ARM926EJ-S [41069265] revision 5 (ARMv5TEJ)
https://steward-fu.github.io/website/mcu/lichee-nano/flash_image.htm
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 10:18:11 pm
Thanks!

I'd *really* like to crack this to the point we can write open source FW for it.  I'd expect it to sell like mad if we can do that.  Which might actually persuade Rigol, Siglent et al to open source their FW or better yet, use a common set of base open source FW and just compete on HW design.

Have Fun!
Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 19, 2020, 10:22:41 pm
(the 1st 32 bytes of each block are its header) In the header, at offset 0x10, there is the size of the block (including header).

SPL has a Load Address = 0x00000000
The executables have a Load Address = 0x80000000


A teaser function in the attached file.
addon
In the header, at offset 0x10, there is the size of the block (including header), aligned to 0x200 (size = (size + 0x1FF) & 0xFFFFFE00)
In the header, at offset 0x0C, there is the SUM32 checksum (sum of all words) of the block (including header), but previously set checksum to 0x5F0A6C39
(mksunxi.exe align the size and calc checksum)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 19, 2020, 10:22:56 pm
ARM V4T little endian
actually
CPU: ARM926EJ-S [41069265] revision 5 (ARMv5TEJ)
https://steward-fu.github.io/website/mcu/lichee-nano/flash_image.htm

Lol you're right! It actualy worked with ARMv4T in ghidra for me lol
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 19, 2020, 10:39:51 pm
ARM V4T little endian
actually
CPU: ARM926EJ-S [41069265] revision 5 (ARMv5TEJ)
https://steward-fu.github.io/website/mcu/lichee-nano/flash_image.htm

Would you please elaborate on the link?    How does this relate to the 1013D?  From what I found I probably want to get a couple but it's not clear what to get as I found lots of very different hits.

Ghidra finished, but I'm *way* in over my head. LoL!

Can someone point me to some basic instructions suitable for someone who knows nothing about Ghidra, a lot generally about HW, but nothing at all about this HW and only  very little about the ARM.  After studying a dozen or more CPUs (e.g Burroughs 5000) going back 50 years it becomes a bit of a blur.  On top of which I've not been into a machine at this level since the VIC20 and C64.

Thanks,
Reg
Title: Heard back from FNIRSI re: "100 MHz"
Post by: cliffyk on July 20, 2020, 06:28:27 am
Well,

FNIRSI responded to my WTF "100 Mhz???" snot-gram (actually I was quite polite): 

(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/FNIRSIResponse-00.jpg)

So, it turns out that 100 Mhz is the "maximum theoretical value"  and if you actually want a 100 Mhz bandwidth you should "buy other better oscilloscope, such as TEKTRONIX..."

Kind of like what I told my wife when we first met, "my đick is 'theoretically' 9 inches"...
Title: Re: Heard back from FNIRSI re: "100 MHz"
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2020, 06:53:08 am
So, it turns out that 100 Mhz is the "maximum theoretical value"  and if you actually want a 100 Mhz bandwidth you should "buy other better oscilloscope, such as TEKTRONIX..."

It's the Nyquist limit of a 200Mhz sample rate and we know it's 200Mhz.  :-+

What about their claim of 1GHz sampling? I'd love to see how they spin that.
Title: Re: Heard back from FNIRSI re: "100 MHz"
Post by: cliffyk on July 20, 2020, 07:04:20 am
So, it turns out that 100 Mhz is the "maximum theoretical value"  and if you actually want a 100 Mhz bandwidth you should "buy other better oscilloscope, such as TEKTRONIX..."

It's the Nyquist limit of a 200Mhz sample rate and we know it's 200Mhz.  :-+

What about their claim of 1GHz sampling? I'd love to see how they spin that.

I hadn't considered that perspective--they know damned well the front-end cannot pass 100 Mhz! 

But hot damn, that makes my 1 Gs/s 60 MHz Hantek DSO1062B a 500 Mhz machine!

In my snot-gram I had questioned the sample rate and  <3 ns rise time claims as well, they ignored both...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 20, 2020, 07:20:42 am
I suspect that with the exception of a handful of geeks who need not be named outright (no offense guys), 99.44% of the buyers of this "instrument" have no real need for a 100MHz 'scope, have no access to signals of near that frequency anyway, and will never know the claim is a complete bucket of hogwash...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2020, 07:26:04 am
I don't get why everybody is so angry about it at this price point.

In my country we have a saying about people who start looking the teeth when you're trying to give them a free horse.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: MosherIV on July 20, 2020, 07:49:16 am
False advertising!

In engineering specifications are everything!
If something is specified to be 100MHz and1G samples - it had better be!

Realistically, based on the price most sensible engineers would know this is an obvious scam.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: CDaniel on July 20, 2020, 07:54:56 am
There are other sayings about being cheap and buy crappy stuff ...
If is known that this is a 20MHz scope or so , many people wouldn't buy it , cheap as it is  ;D

The display , parts and manufacturing are very cheap from tablet/phone industry , no surprise they can afford to make it . Of course the know-how and time to make a scope right are not that cheap
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 20, 2020, 07:55:06 am
I don't get why everybody is so angry about it at this price point.

In my country we have a saying about people who start looking the teeth when you're trying to give them a free horse.

I have no "anger" over this, nor have I seen anymore than "bemusement" by most of the posters here.  i knew going in it was a "too-good-to-be-true" device; but I am annoyed by the blatant deception and total disregard for the customer. Sort of like if I went to pick up the free horse and was told "Well, it's not EXACTLY 'free'".

It takes a lot to get me angry--no one wants to see me like that.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2020, 08:02:44 am
False advertising!

In engineering specifications are everything!
If something is specified to be 100MHz and1G samples - it had better be!

That's just a cultural expectation, not a physical law.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 20, 2020, 08:15:30 am
False advertising!

In engineering specifications are everything!
If something is specified to be 100MHz and1G samples - it had better be!

That's just a cultural expectation, not a physical law.

I was raised to believe that a man's word was his bond. I once, many years back, spent $16.4 million (of my employer's money) with a "handshake" contract--but that was back when men had decency and honor; long lost characteristics I fear.

"Cultural expectation" sounds like a way of self-justifying sniveling out of a deal...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2020, 08:36:40 am
I was raised to believe that a man's word was his bond.

That has NEVER been true.

But getting back to the point: How do we get the most from these things?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 20, 2020, 08:47:11 am
I was raised to believe that a man's word was his bond.
That has NEVER been true.

Perhaps not in your circles...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2020, 09:00:44 am
Perhaps not in your circles...

You've never seen anti-hairloss products, diet products, abdominal training devices in yours?

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 20, 2020, 09:17:10 am
The F1C100s Lychee Nano board is now a sipeed product (or so it seems), and FYI there's a sipeed group at telegram: https://t.me/sipeed (https://t.me/sipeed)

Also:
https://github.com/Lichee-Pi (https://github.com/Lichee-Pi)
https://github.com/Lichee-Pi/Lichee-Nano-Doc-us-english (https://github.com/Lichee-Pi/Lichee-Nano-Doc-us-english)
https://github.com/Lichee-Pi/linux (https://github.com/Lichee-Pi/linux)
https://dl.sipeed.com/LICHEE/Nano/Document (https://dl.sipeed.com/LICHEE/Nano/Document)
https://www.programmersought.com/article/5946691191/ (https://www.programmersought.com/article/5946691191/)
https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/08/17/licheepi-nano-cheap-sd-card-sized-linux-board/ (https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/08/17/licheepi-nano-cheap-sd-card-sized-linux-board/)

(https://www.cnx-software.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/LicheePi-Nano-Board-Large.jpg)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 20, 2020, 11:43:03 am
The preceding seems like a lot of senseless argument about something we all knew long before.  Lets get on with open sourcing the FW.

FWIW My "200 MHz"  Rigol DS1202Z-E has a 300 MHz -3 dB point and is quite usable to almost 1 GHz on a sine wave.

[attachimg=1]

This was done with an HP 8648C set at 0 dBm output into a 50 ohm thru termination.  The horizontal line is -3 dB.  The scope is severely aliased of course which will lead to incorrect results for an FFT.  I'm still trying to devise a good time domain test for aliasing effects other than the standard sine wave appears to be lower frequency than it actually is. The modulation options for the 8648C are somewhat limited.

The 100 MHz trigger instability is a consequence of sampling the sine wave consistently at less than peak value.

Have Fun!
Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 20, 2020, 01:42:42 pm
Despite my simply feeding Ghidra the flash image and specifying the wrong architecture, it seems to have worked.

However, learning to use Ghidra looks pretty daunting and I don't think I have the time to do anything serious.  All the stuff I know to do and then some is already implemented in Ghidra.  Unfortunately I don't yet know how to access what I want.

For example, 0xb34e() has an infinite loop following a series of function calls suggesting that it is the main loop when the DSO is running.  However, I can't figure out how to walk back up the call tree from there.

I'm certainly impressed by Ghidra.  I had not known of it before, so it's been a very valuable education.  I can see lots of uses for it, but I think I need to start by analyzing a less complex program.

Have Fun!
Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2020, 02:30:13 pm
Did anyone check if it was capable of 100Mhz?

Yes.

Or where its limit is?

More like 20-30MHz
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2020, 02:31:07 pm
Has anybody measured the bandwidth in 1x mode?

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 20, 2020, 03:37:10 pm
The lack of a variable gain amplifier limits them pretty significantly.  The Rigol had to change ranges quite a few times for the plot I posted.

My DSO testing has found that all of the ones I've tested alias because the filter is before the variable gain amplifier.  While undesirable in certain circumstances, it does mean they are usable to 3-4x they -3 dB point for tasks like troubleshooting an RF system.

Have Fun!
Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 20, 2020, 03:47:54 pm
I was raised to believe that a man's word was his bond.
That has NEVER been true.

Perhaps not in your circles...

Bingo!

I was going to respond "Never been in a firefight, have you?". When you tell a brother you "have his back", YOU HAVE HIS GODDAMN BACK!

You'll need him to do the same for you someday...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 20, 2020, 03:50:29 pm
Hi,

Mine did arrived - Ordered as fnirsi, it comes a "yeapook"... ;)
First look, cute toy, responsive touchscreen...

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2020, 03:56:41 pm
I was going to respond "Never been in a firefight, have you?". When you tell a brother you "have his back", YOU HAVE HIS GODDAMN BACK!

I don't think it's a bad thing to have been raised with the phrase "Caveat Emptor" burned into the psyche.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 20, 2020, 04:06:33 pm
Has anybody measured the bandwidth in 1x mode?

Didn't read the entire thread did you?

Here're my results, a couple others checked it as well:

Here are some results of my testing bandwidth in X1 mode using alligator clips:

10kHz reference (5.04 Vpp):
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/10kHz-00.jpg)

1 MHz (4.99 Vpp -0.087 dB)
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/1MHz-00.jpg)

10 MHz (5.39 Vpp +0.58 dB)
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/10MHz-00.jpg)

20 MHz (4.99 Vpp -0.087 dB)
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/20MHz-00.jpg)

30 MHz (4.36 Vpp -1.26 dB)
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/30MHz-00.jpg)

34 MHz (3.47 Vpp -3.24 dB)
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/34MHz-00.jpg)

So, there it is -3 dB @ 33 to 34 MHz with alligator clips! Not too shabby,,,

Note that the square-wave on CH2 (X1 mode via a 50 Ω patch cable) turned to crap at > 10 MHz, which actually validates the 30+ MHz bandwidth...

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 20, 2020, 04:09:26 pm
I was going to respond "Never been in a firefight, have you?". When you tell a brother you "have his back", YOU HAVE HIS GODDAMN BACK!

I don't think it's a bad thing to have been raised with the phrase "Caveat Emptor" burned into the psyche.

Oh, we had that one too.

if you read the entire thread you will find that I and others have been generally please with the value of the unit--nonetheless it is grossly misrepresented..
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 20, 2020, 04:13:18 pm
For example, 0xb34e() has an infinite loop following a series of function calls suggesting that it is the main loop when the DSO is running.  However, I can't figure out how to walk back up the call tree from there.

I'm certainly impressed by Ghidra.  I had not known of it before, so it's been a very valuable education.  I can see lots of uses for it, but I think I need to start by analyzing a less complex program.

As Morpheus would say: Welcome to the real world.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 20, 2020, 04:22:42 pm
Hi,

Mine did arrived - Ordered as fnirsi, it comes a "yeapook"... ;)
First look, cute toy, responsive touchscreen...

I have found the UI will get sluggish in "Normal" trigger mode in the absence of, or with a maladjusted trigger--switching to "Auto" mode frees it all up.

Check out the "Save Wave"/"View Waveform"  functions. When viewing a saved wave ("wave", not "pic") you can alter gain and time base, and scroll up/down/sideways, to view the entire capture. Measured parameters, cursors anf the FFT function (such as it is) work as well. I wish my Lecroy allowed that. 
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 20, 2020, 04:24:17 pm
Here're my results, a couple others checked it as well:

Fed in a sinewave with 1Vrms, starting at 1Mhz. Got -3dB (0.707Vrms) at appx 37 Mhz.
Interesting :

Where at frequencies about 10Mhz or more the waveform looks stable, at 1Mhz it´s somekind of "restless" .
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 20, 2020, 04:34:21 pm
Here're my results, a couple others checked it as well:

Fed in a sinewave with 1Vrms, starting at 1Mhz. Got -3dB (0.707Vrms) at appx 37 Mhz.
Interesting :

Where at frequencies about 10Mhz or more the waveform looks stable, at 1Mhz it´s somekind of "restless" .

Mine tracks and synchs well from the 10 kHz reference I started with, out to the 34 MHz -3dB point I found... But, that's the sort on inconsistency we have all come to expect in this stuff. If they used top notch quality components they could of course not afford the sell it for $165 delivered here in the U.S.

All in all I find I am enjoying it. Did I mention it's as cute as a bug's ear?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 20, 2020, 04:35:21 pm
For example, 0xb34e() has an infinite loop following a series of function calls suggesting that it is the main loop when the DSO is running.  However, I can't figure out how to walk back up the call tree from there.

I'm certainly impressed by Ghidra.  I had not known of it before, so it's been a very valuable education.  I can see lots of uses for it, but I think I need to start by analyzing a less complex program.

As Morpheus would say: Welcome to the real world.

The real world is a rather large place.  No one lives long enough to visit all of it.

It would be very interesting to know the origins of this.  The obvious presence in the FW of features not supported by the HW suggests someone developed a base design and FW to sell to manufacturers who in turn set the price point by leaving out HW.

The lack of a variable gain amplifier to provide mV ranges is more of a barrier to my getting one than the 30 MHz BW.

Have Fun!
Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 20, 2020, 04:38:28 pm
The trigger jitter at 1 MHz may be caused by failing to interpolate the trigger point and retime the sampling  Easily fixable once we have control of the FW it's running.

Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2020, 04:40:06 pm
It would be very interesting to know the origins of this.  The obvious presence in the FW of features not supported by the HW suggests someone developed a base design and FW to sell to manufacturers who in turn set the price point by leaving out HW.

Maybe management said "We want a 1GSample/100Mhz 'scope!" and engineering did the best they could.

The would certainly explain the discrepancy between the ADC sample rate and the analog bandwidth - they were aiming higher when they chose the ADC but it didn't work out in production.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: CDaniel on July 20, 2020, 04:55:57 pm
Be serious , this is not a company as it should be , just some guys wanting to make easy money lying  ...  ;D
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2020, 05:03:41 pm
Be serious , this is not a company as it should be , just some guys wanting to make easy money lying  ...  ;D

In the west we call those people "managers and salesmen".

There's laws that make it make it difficult to sell products with definite numbers on them though so they mostly stick to homeopathic, gluten-free hairloss remedies that help you sleep and tighten up your abs while you use them. ie. Nothing that can be disproved in a court of law.

(either that or investment-grade "collectables" on the shopping channel that can only go up in value in the future...)

Edit: And then there's the Batteroo brothers.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 20, 2020, 05:07:42 pm
It would be nice if the software of this device was open sourced. Then one could actually make something useful out of it :)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 20, 2020, 05:26:47 pm
Some further impressions...
Took the screenshot function, works perfect.
Data transmission to pc was really simple - Connect it to the pc, voilá.
Interesting : You should better disconnect your source from the channels when connect it to the pc, otherwise the waveforms changed to a negative DC voltage on the screen - Isolation problem I guess.
But after playing a bit around:
Cute, really cute toy... :D
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 20, 2020, 05:58:28 pm
Be serious , this is not a company as it should be , just some guys wanting to make easy money lying  ...  ;D

The datasheet of  Keysight MSOX3104T states rise time as 0.35/BW *except* for the 1 GHz model.  For that it's 0.45/BW.

That's a $20K MSRP scope.

Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 20, 2020, 06:21:41 pm
Be serious , this is not a company as it should be , just some guys wanting to make easy money lying  ...  ;D

In the west we call those people "managers and salesmen".

There's laws that make it make it difficult to sell products with definite numbers on them though so they mostly stick to homeopathic, gluten-free hairloss remedies that help you sleep and tighten up your abs while you use them. ie. Nothing that can be disproved in a court of law.

(either that or investment-grade "collectables" on the shopping channel that can only go up in value in the future...)

Edit: And then there's the Batteroo brothers.

"Franklin Mint" comes to mind...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2020, 07:05:44 pm
"Franklin Mint" comes to mind...

Yeah, that's the one.

At least FNIRSI is giving you something in return for your money.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2020, 07:13:51 pm
Has anybody measured the bandwidth in 1x mode?

Didn't read the entire thread did you?

Wait a minute...

That measurement was with "alligator clips". I was interested in the bandwidth with the 1x probes. The 1x probes will have some capacitance that will lower the bandwidth.

If we have to use crocodile clips to get the most from this thing then there should be a way to get better results by adding a small amount of capacitance and limiting the bandwidth to something the system can handle.

(ie. not exploding into a mess of aliasing when you go over 50MHz).


Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 20, 2020, 07:53:12 pm
Hi,

Done the meausure with the probe switching to 1x.
BW decreases to 17.8Mhz
Martin
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 20, 2020, 08:20:23 pm
Cute, really cute toy... :D

Have you used it with your Siglent board?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 20, 2020, 08:21:43 pm
Damn, good idea!

Tomorrow I´ll do it with the stb-3 .

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 20, 2020, 10:22:44 pm
I reran Ghidra specifying "ARM v5te little endian".  It generated an error message for an "aggressive one time" operation which I did not get when I used "ARM v4te little endian".  Without experienced guidance I
 have no idea what to make of it.

The noise level has gotten pretty high. I'm really not interested in Franklin Mint and such, so I think it's time to wander off.

If anyone actually does something please send me a heads up via PM.

Have Fun!
Reg

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 21, 2020, 02:56:40 am
That measurement was with "alligator clips". I was interested in the bandwidth with the 1x probes. The 1x probes will have some capacitance that will lower the bandwidth.

If we have to use crocodile clips to get the most from this thing then there should be a way to get better results by adding a small amount of capacitance and limiting the bandwidth to something the system can handle.


The alligator clips represent the type of "probe" I am likely to employ in my use of this tool, as my primary use will be in troubleshooting contemporary electronic engine control system sensors and control devices in automobiles, motorcycles and almost any modern ICE powered equipment (even lawn mowers). Alligator clips, back-probe needles, and insulation piercing clips such as these:

(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/PiercingClips-00.JPG)

On such machinery, and other than at board level within the "black box" engine and power-train control modules, there are mo pretty little test points to which one could connect a formal X1 or X10 oscilloscope probe--the best one can do is attempt to find something shiny to clip onto and when that fails you grab the proper color wire and punch a hole through the insulation (a spray of carburetor cleaner to degrease and a small drop of silicone sealer will plug it up when you're done).

For the most part the signal voltages are "highish", at 5 or 12 V typically; and signal frequencies max out at 1 to maybe 5 kHz. Consider that even with a 10 cylinder  4-stroke/cycle engine running 10,000 RPM (an unlikely find); spark, fueling, and monitor events occur only 50,000 times/minute; just 833 events per second.

Other uses such as monitoring voltage drops, start-up current draws and the like occur over multiples of minutes. Here are some traces i've captured over the years:

Testing an ignition coil (primary waveform at 0.054" and 15 mm plug gaps):
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/images/COPTest20101120-01.png)

2003 Mustang GT triple-strike plug firing at idle (reduces NOx emissions):
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/images/COPMultiStrike02.gif)

1998 Mercedes SL500 IR keyless entry receiver output of keyfob "unlock" command:
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/images/MTSPacket02.png)

1998 SL500 RF keyless entry receiver output, lock and unlock:
(http://www.paladinmicro.com//SL500/images/1998StockKeyless-01.jpg)

Only Mercedes knows why they felt both IR and RF controls were needed--they are incapable of doing anything normally, like lug bolts requiring an alignment tool to mount a wheel, instead of studs and nuts. Worst car I ever owned, gobs of fun to drive, just don't think too much about what plastic thing is going to deteriorate next,

2003 Mustang GT narrowband oxygen sensor output at 2000 RPM:
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/images/OwonHDS_O2-2K01.png)

Suzuki Burgman 400 headlamp startup current w/a cheap Asian 5-pin DIN relay (captured using a MasTech clamp-on DC current probe):
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/images/Burgman/9006Cheap-ON-01.png)

Same with a quality NTE relay having reverse EMF protection:
(http://www.paladinmicro.com//images/Burgman/9006NTE-ON-01.png)

Burgman 400 ignition ON current:
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/images/Burgman/K3400-CurrentDraw-01.jpg)

2009 Tacoma throttle position sensor, from closed to WOT:
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/images/ForumPosts/TPSWJ312Trace-01.png)

2009 Tacoma, on-board 120 VAC inverter (so-called "modified sine wave" w/a 60W load):
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/Tacoma/images/Tacoma400-60W.PNG)

My point is that there is a whole bunch of useful work one can do with an oscilloscope that does not involve single digit mV levels and MHz frequencies.

I think this silly little puppy may be just the ticket for much of that sort of work.

Did I mention it's as cute as a bugs ear?

--------------------------------------------
Not related to any of the above, but nonetheless a novel use of an oscilloscope in automotive diagnosis/repair, here's an analysis of an audio file I asked a fellow who was questioning the accuracy of his mustang Cobra's tachometer to send me. The FFT analysis revealed a predominate frequency (a loud exhaust note) of 154 Hz.

154 /4 [exhaust pulses per revolution for a V8] * 60 =  2310 RPM, just what his tach was reporting:
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/images/4R70W-373-03.png)

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on July 21, 2020, 03:02:12 am
Cliff, can you select units of Amps in the channel input menu ?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 21, 2020, 03:13:03 am
Cliff, can you select units of Amps in the channel input menu ?

With my Lecroys you can select A as he unit label and scale the value display, but not with this little fella. However I'm pretty good at math and "make believe"...

 
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on July 21, 2020, 04:04:50 am
Cliff, can you select units of Amps in the channel input menu ?

With my Lecroy's you can select A as he unit and scale the display, but not with this little fella. However I'm pretty good at math and "make believe"...
I quite understand and we needed to do maths on the fly with a CRO however most DSO's are able to display waveforms in the units of Amps.

Another FAIL for FNIRSI.  ::)

Thanks for checking.  :)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 21, 2020, 08:12:13 am
Hi,

Done the meausure with the probe switching to 1x.
BW decreases to 17.8Mhz
Martin

 :-+

Not perfect but also not the disaster promised in the manual.

[attachimg=1]

Theoretically we could gain an extra 15Mhz in 1x mode by making a custom probe with just the right amount of capacitance, but... you'd only need that when you want 50mV/division.

The overlap in the Venn diagram isn't big enough to not bother, IMHO. People who want that would probably be using a real oscilloscope anyway.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 21, 2020, 08:22:58 am
I quite understand and we needed to do maths on the fly with a CRO however most DSO's are able to display waveforms in the units of Amps.

But the amount of menu-diving required simply isn't worth it.

Another FAIL for FNIRSI.  ::)

Yeah, total fail. They totally should have added a whole extra menu just for that.  Not. :palm:
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 21, 2020, 08:43:53 am
I quite understand and we needed to do maths on the fly with a CRO however most DSO's are able to display waveforms in the units of Amps.

But the amount of menu-diving required simply isn't worth it.


And all that does is change the label for use with a current probe--without a current probe an oscilloscope has no idea how much current a conductor is carrying.

Another FAIL for FNIRSI.  ::)

Yeah, total fail. They totally should have added a whole extra menu just for that.  :palm:

:palm: + 100, i'm with you on the face plant; And as I said above I'm pretty good at make believe...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on July 21, 2020, 08:52:52 am
I quite understand and we needed to do maths on the fly with a CRO however most DSO's are able to display waveforms in the units of Amps.

But the amount of menu-diving required simply isn't worth it.

Another FAIL for FNIRSI.  ::)

Yeah, total fail. They totally should have added a whole extra menu just for that.  Not. :palm:
We need ask ourselves who might buy this $120 tablet instead of a proper DSO or for that matter a working CRO ?
At least an order of magnitude sensitivity better is available in all other scopes and totally without the apparent sensitivity to 10x probes.  :o
Yes older instruments do have their limitations too but not so for the most basic of measurements like these.

A buyers expectations of getting a somewhat capable instrument would not be met and for once on this forum I'd recommend the purchase of a CRO so not to be so disappointed. Yes I said that !  :palm:

Yet member bd139 picked up a mint condition TDS210 DSO yesterday for the same price as the topic of this thread of which I strongly suggest will be a much better investment.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 21, 2020, 08:53:51 am
Hi,

Done the meausure with the probe switching to 1x.
BW decreases to 17.8Mhz
Martin

 :-+

Not perfect but also not the disaster promised in the manual.

[attachimg=1]

Theoretically we could gain an extra 15Mhz in 1x mode by making a custom probe with just the right amount of capacitance, but... you'd only need that when you want 50mV/division.

The overlap in the Venn diagram isn't big enough to not bother, IMHO. People who want that would probably be using a real oscilloscope anyway.

That first statement in the manual's red-flagged  "Solemn reminder" section ("The bandwidth of the 1x probe file is 5 MHz,...") may be so with regard to the supplied probe in 1X mode, however I got out to 34 MHz at -3 dB, with alligator clips on the end of 16" of 50 Ω cable. In the morning I'm going to see what I can get with 3 ft of 18 ga. zip cord...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 21, 2020, 09:01:21 am
That first statement in the manual's red-flagged  "Solemn reminder" section ("The bandwidth of the 1x probe file is 5 MHz,...") may be so with regard to the supplied probe in 1X mode, however I got out to 34 MHz at -3 dB, with alligator clips on the end of 16" of 50 Ω cable.

It's all about capacitance.

You can get the same bandwidth by switching the probe to 10x mode, you just lose the 50mV range.

(because the x10 probe has a 10:1 voltage divider hidden inside it).

There'll be a compromise in between the two, which is what you're doing with your clips, but I suspect most people won't bother. It's nice to know it's there but the difference in bandwidth isn't huge (you're not getting the promised 100Mhz or anywhere close)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 21, 2020, 09:11:30 am
Theoretically we could gain an extra 15Mhz in 1x mode by making a custom probe ...

I'm beginning to think the nickname of this puppy is "theoretically".  :-DD

Warning: I'm not bashing. I must do a comparison between my DSO138 and a MXR...  ::)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 21, 2020, 09:36:50 am
That first statement in the manual's red-flagged  "Solemn reminder" section ("The bandwidth of the 1x probe file is 5 MHz,...") may be so with regard to the supplied probe in 1X mode, however I got out to 34 MHz at -3 dB, with alligator clips on the end of 16" of 50 Ω cable.

It's all about capacitance.

You can get the same bandwidth by switching the probe to 10x mode, you just lose the 50mV range.

(because the x10 probe has a 10:1 voltage divider hidden inside it).

There'll be a compromise in between the two, which is what you're doing with your clips, but I suspect most people won't bother. It's nice to know it's there but the difference in bandwidth isn't huge (you're not getting the promised 100Mhz or anywhere close)

I fully understand the theory of HF passive probes probes, however I just tested the supplied probe in x1 mode.

Here's a dose of empirical reality: 18.6 MHz @ -3 dB.

1 Mhz 1.01 Vrms:
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/1.bmp)

18.6 Mhz 0.707 Vrms (-3 dB):
(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/2.bmp)
 
I don't think they ever tested the instrument, just threw together some specs based on theoretical capabilities.

I still like it, for my intended use it will do just what i need though i do wish it had triggered sweep at 20 ms/div and slower.

Have I mentioned that it's a cute as a bug's ear?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 21, 2020, 09:57:24 am
This is another good example of compromise between € and capabilities.

Doing such a scope with a multimedia chip is another example of ingenuity and its developers surely did their best. Once again, I don't think it can be improved much more.

The specs that are presented by the vendor are executives/marketing "wishful thinking".

Once people here correctly characterize the performance envelope of this scope, I think it should be perfectly usable in non-demanding tasks by a great number of users.

Maybe its time for C-brands...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 21, 2020, 10:16:07 am
Doing such a scope with a multimedia chip is another example of ingenuity and its developers surely did their best. Once again, I don't think it can be improved much more.

I wonder why did they put a front end so slow when the digitizer runs @ 200MSa/s? It's not a good fit. Perhaps the guy was better at digital than analog? It happened to Woz all the time.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 21, 2020, 10:38:58 am
I wonder why did they put a front end so slow when the digitizer runs @ 200MSa/s? It's not a good fit. Perhaps the guy was better at digital than analog? It happened to Woz all time.

There goes the neighborhood... you up the proc, you up the price. It's a fine balance. You have to put the limit somewhere.

Edit: What I meant is: you up the front end, and you'll be here asking for more sampling power...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 21, 2020, 10:41:01 am
There goes the neighborhood... you up the proc, you up the price. It's a fine balance. You have to put the limit somewhere.

Do you think it would have been so much more expensive?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 21, 2020, 10:46:49 am
Do you think it would have been so much more expensive?

I think so. When we are at this scale of "upscaling/modding", any small change in any part of the chain might force big € increments in the rest of the chain / total redesign. But, of course, IMHO.

I can easily imagine those meetings where this kind of things are discussed.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 21, 2020, 11:08:40 am
Do you think it would have been so much more expensive?

I think so. When we are at this scale of "upscaling/modding", any small change in any part of the chain might force big € increments in the rest of the chain / total redesign. But, of course, IMHO.

Look: https://mysku.ru/blog/aliexpress/80036.html#comment3580231

Quote
If R12 is reduced to 10-22 Ohm, the frequency response at the HF will become flat to 100 MHz.
If you increase C2, it will level out at the low frequency response.

(https://pic.mysku-st.ru/uploads/pictures/10/83/75/2020/06/25/bddbbe.jpg)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 21, 2020, 01:25:01 pm
To provide good transient responses the input LP filter corner should be no more than 40-50% of Nyquist.

The steeper the filter skirt, the more the step response rings.

With a 100 MHz Nyquist, a 30-35 MHz LP corner is actually a good design choice.

Have Fun!
Reg

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 21, 2020, 02:29:52 pm
Playing around with the stb-3 board :

[attachimg=1]

The demo board provides a variety of testsignals, ideal for doing a quick "overall" test on new scopes.
Sinewaves, squarewaves, pwm, runt, glitch, modulation, eres and several serial bus signals.
And inbetween it´s limitations, the scope performed well.
PWM signals are no problem:

[attachimg=2]

Runt and glitch pulses....Well, no.  ;)
Also it couldn´t display the AM signal (25Mhz carrierfrequency) proper, but the rest is not too bad, single/normal trigger works fine.
Showstopper is the minimum resolution of 500mV/div. in 10x mode and the missing of other triggerfunctions.
Interesting:
Frequency will only be measured when the trigger is in "auto" mode, in normal mode it doesn´t work.
Also you can´t "zoom" in after stop.

Continue playing with the board and scope...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on July 21, 2020, 03:10:44 pm
I don't understand why people are so shocked by the lies and the performance of this oscilloscope.
Who would be willing to take precision measurements on a device at this price ? It is the price of 2 x 100Mhz Siglent or Rigol probe  :-DD
Yes it is ridiculous to put forward this kind of performance and it should be banned but this is the case for 95% of cheap Chinese products.

if you have 150$ to put in an oscilloscope and it will be your one and only oscilloscope, go find another used device.
This oscilloscope is interesting only for these unique specifications : cheap, 7" touch screen, no boot time, long battery operation and small form factor.
Very useful in many cases.

tv84 is in the place so he will soon be able to unlock the serial bus decoding, the eye diagram and the zone triggering :-/O
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 21, 2020, 03:19:08 pm
Quote
I don't understand why people are so shocked by the lies and the performance of this oscilloscope.

I´m not shocked about, I´m positively surprised. ;)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on July 21, 2020, 03:35:03 pm
I don't understand why people are so shocked by the lies and the performance of this oscilloscope.
if you have 150$...
I'm not shocked!
Actual price is 100$ (on taobao.com in China, price is 699 RMB = ~100$), this is how much I paid...
Do you know any alternative for the same price?  :)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 21, 2020, 03:41:14 pm
Bodnar-Pulse :

[attachimg=1]

Terminated with 50 \$\Omega\$ ,although it makes no difference... ;D
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 21, 2020, 03:51:28 pm
Playing around with the stb-3 board :

[attachimg=1]

The demo board provides a variety of testsignals, ideal for doing a quick "overall" test on new scopes.
Sinewaves, squarewaves, pwm, runt, glitch, modulation, eres and several serial bus signals.
And inbetween it´s limitations, the scope performed well.
PWM signals are no problem:

[attachimg=2]

Runt and glitch pulses....Well, no.  ;)
Also it couldn´t display the AM signal (25Mhz carrierfrequency) proper, but the rest is not too bad, single/normal trigger works fine.
Showstopper is the minimum resolution of 500mV/div. in 10x mode and the missing of other triggerfunctions.
Interesting:
Frequency will only be measured when the trigger is in "auto" mode, in normal mode it doesn´t work.
Also you can´t "zoom" in after stop.

Continue playing with the board and scope...

Mine does "zoom" (alter gain and timebase), "pan" (change trigger level and position), toggle FFT, and all that in Stop mode? 

Duty cycle +/- and time +/- are also blocked in Normal and Single trigger mode. As I have said before 10x mode is irrelevant for my needs, I do wish triggering worked at slower (<10 ms) time base settings.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 21, 2020, 03:58:45 pm
I quite understand and we needed to do maths on the fly with a CRO however most DSO's are able to display waveforms in the units of Amps.

But the amount of menu-diving required simply isn't worth it.

Another FAIL for FNIRSI.  ::)

Yeah, total fail. They totally should have added a whole extra menu just for that.  Not. :palm:
We need ask ourselves who might buy this $120 tablet instead of a proper DSO or for that matter a working CRO ?
At least an order of magnitude sensitivity better is available in all other scopes and totally without the apparent sensitivity to 10x probes.  :o
Yes older instruments do have their limitations too but not so for the most basic of measurements like these.

A buyers expectations of getting a somewhat capable instrument would not be met and for once on this forum I'd recommend the purchase of a CRO so not to be so disappointed. Yes I said that !  :palm:

Yet member bd139 picked up a mint condition TDS210 DSO yesterday for the same price as the topic of this thread of which I strongly suggest will be a much better investment.

I agree and stated earlier I suspect 99.44% of the buyers have no need for 100 MHz or < 50 mV/div performance--half of that number probably don't even know what those specs mean...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: jemangedeslolos on July 21, 2020, 04:10:17 pm
I don't understand why people are so shocked by the lies and the performance of this oscilloscope.
if you have 150$...
I'm not shocked!
Actual price is 100$ (on taobao.com in China, price is 699 RMB = ~100$), this is how much I paid...
Do you know any alternative for the same price?  :)

No, it is why I have one in front of me right now.
Perfect for me when I need to see something
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 21, 2020, 04:15:51 pm
Quote
I suspect 99.44% of the buyers have no need for 100 MHz or < 50 mV/div performance--half of that number probably don't even know what those specs mean...

As stated before, this thing is a nice little toy you could do rudimental measurings with.
But in my opinion, it´s not a scope for beginners, they should save their money to buy a little siglent or rigol - Or buying a used, well known scope.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: gf on July 21, 2020, 04:18:31 pm
Yep. It's 200MS/s actually as both ADC's in the one chip are clocked out of phase, same signal goes into both ADC channels.

I'm wondering, are the two ADCs still clocked anti-phase in 2-channel mode?

[ I'm asking because on my Hantek 2000 this is unfortunately the case, leading to 1/2 ADC clock cycle delay between the displayed CH1 and CH2 signals :( Usually hardly visible w/o zoom-in, nevertheless significant in cases where it matters. ]
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 21, 2020, 04:19:26 pm
tv84 is in the place so he will soon be able to unlock the serial bus decoding, the eye diagram and the zone triggering :-/O

Yep, eye diagram: almost there. Just waiting for Sighound's MXR to do some comparison tests.  ^-^

This thing is so streamlined that it doesn't have much code for options! Even for bugs!!  :-DD
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: hughtmccullough on July 21, 2020, 04:55:25 pm


Look: https://mysku.ru/blog/aliexpress/80036.html#comment3580231

Quote
If R12 is reduced to 10-22 Ohm, the frequency response at the HF will become flat to 100 MHz.
If you increase C2, it will level out at the low frequency response.


Maybe the Chinese are more clever than the Russians.  A simulation only gives the answer to the question you ask it.  If the combined capacitance of the switch contacts, op. amp and any other stray capacitance is about 10pF then the frequency response will be flat without the bump at 10kHz.  It looks as if the simulation only includes the capacitance of the op. amp and it is safe to assume that the design doesn't use relatively expensive low capacitance relays and that there will be other stray capacitance of the same order of magnitude.

If this is the case then the switching (using the values in the circuit) will follow fairly closely the sequence 5V/div, 2.5V/div, 1V/div, 500mV/div, 200mV/div and 100mV/div.  This leaves the 50mV/div scale and it is quite possible that it is done in software, reducing the resolution to 7 bits, unless there is another gain stage after the OPA356.

The specification claims both AC and DC coupling but the simulated circuit clearly has AC coupling only.  Does the real circuit have another switch that bypasses the input capacitor?

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: rhb on July 21, 2020, 06:30:04 pm
Bodnar-Pulse :

[attachimg=1]

Terminated with 50 \$\Omega\$ ,although it makes no difference... ;D

That's quite respectable.  Makes me think that if the critical caps were variable you could trim it up and do better.

Have Fun!
Reg
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 22, 2020, 02:41:11 am
Has anybody measured the bandwidth in 1x mode?

What specifically did you want verified?

The measurements I took – with the instrument set to 1x mode, Active Heads set to 1 MOhm impedance – suggested a BW close to 50 MHz... however, the amplitude seems to bounce around above 30 MHz-ish, so it depends on what you're assessing.

It's pretty solid through to 20 MHz.  Beyond that it starts getting hinky.

I would call this a 20 MHz 'scope with the 3 dB around 30 to 40 MHz.  (The hinkyness factor that this instrument has going on isn't something you get with most 'scopes, even the most el cheapo varieties.)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 22, 2020, 05:37:23 am
Has anybody measured the bandwidth in 1x mode?

What specifically did you want verified?

I was wondering what the bandwidth was with the supplied probes in 1x mode. What would a 10Mhz square wave look like with probes in 1x mode?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: snoopy on July 22, 2020, 05:44:53 am
I quite understand and we needed to do maths on the fly with a CRO however most DSO's are able to display waveforms in the units of Amps.

But the amount of menu-diving required simply isn't worth it.

Another FAIL for FNIRSI.  ::)

Yeah, total fail. They totally should have added a whole extra menu just for that.  Not. :palm:
We need ask ourselves who might buy this $120 tablet instead of a proper DSO or for that matter a working CRO ?
At least an order of magnitude sensitivity better is available in all other scopes and totally without the apparent sensitivity to 10x probes.  :o
Yes older instruments do have their limitations too but not so for the most basic of measurements like these.

A buyers expectations of getting a somewhat capable instrument would not be met and for once on this forum I'd recommend the purchase of a CRO so not to be so disappointed. Yes I said that !  :palm:

Yet member bd139 picked up a mint condition TDS210 DSO yesterday for the same price as the topic of this thread of which I strongly suggest will be a much better investment.

People who want a compact battery operated portable scope they can take with them anytime and can also do floating measurements etc ;) If you have something better to offer let us know. So far I haven't seen any offers of something better for the price. I've seen a lot worse for the price for a portable scope with tiny iddy biddy screens or limited bandwidth etc :( If I want to make my TDS3012 portable I would have to pay $500 US just for a battery and extra for a charger etc !! Yes it's a lot better scope than this one but for on the job in-situ measurements this would be adequate in most cases and compact as well.

cheers
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on July 22, 2020, 07:33:48 am
People who want a compact battery operated portable scope they can take with them anytime and can also do floating measurements etc ;) If you have something better to offer let us know. So far I haven't seen any offers of something better for the price. I've seen a lot worse for the price for a portable scope with tiny iddy biddy screens or limited bandwidth etc :( If I want to make my TDS3012 portable I would have to pay $500 US just for a battery and extra for a charger etc !! Yes it's a lot better scope than this one but for on the job in-situ measurements this would be adequate in most cases and compact as well.

cheers
I get that and for those that understand the limitations of these tablets the price is good however I would never recommend them as a beginners scope which due to their price is tempting to those with a limited budget.

This is a prime case to use a recent Keysight slogan: Get a real scope !
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 24, 2020, 08:30:43 am
What specifically did you want verified?

I was wondering what the bandwidth was with the supplied probes in 1x mode. What would a 10Mhz square wave look like with probes in 1x mode?

This is all using the timing signals from the calibrator.  1 Vpp at 10 MHz, nominally squarewave.

The supplied probes were used first, both set to 1X.

FNIRSI Channel 1 / probe A @ 1X:
[attach=7]

Shifted supplied probe A @ 1X to Siglent Channel 1:
[attach=11]

FNIRSI Channel 2 / probe B @ 1X:
[attach=1]
(Note: the signal on this probe seemed markedly more unstable.)

Shifted supplied probe B @ 1X to Siglent Channel 1:
[attach=8]


Setup used:

[attach=4] [attach=5] [attach=6]


Tested the same signal to Channel 1, but using a Siglent probe set to 1X.

FNIRSI Channel 1 / Siglent probe @ 1X:
[attach=2]

Shifted Siglent probe @ 1X to Siglent Channel 1:
[attach=9]

Tested the same signal to Channel 1, but using a Siglent probe set to 10X.

FNIRSI Channel 1 / Siglent probe @ 10X:
[attach=3]

Shifted Siglent probe @ 10X to Siglent Channel 1:

[attach=10]
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 24, 2020, 08:57:45 am
I get that and for those that understand the limitations of these tablets the price is good however I would never recommend them as a beginners scope which due to their price is tempting to those with a limited budget.

This is a prime case to use a recent Keysight slogan: Get a real scope !

If you can get a decent second-hand one for the same money, sure.

However, you may want a battery-powered device for cheap.  So that means something similar to this.


As an aside, I have ordered one of these: Hantek 2D42.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWgslcNQLkw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWgslcNQLkw)

Once I have it I'll give it a look over.  My expectations are low, but we'll see.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 24, 2020, 09:08:58 am
I was wondering what the bandwidth was with the supplied probes in 1x mode. What would a 10Mhz square wave look like with probes in 1x mode?

This is all using the timing signals from the calibrator.  1 Vpp at 10 MHz, nominally squarewave.

The supplied probes were used first, both set to 1X.

 :-+

Food for thought. I'm surprised at how much difference the probes made at this frequency. There's other threads here that show even the cheapest eBay probes working fine at frequencies an order of magnitude higher.

eg. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheapest-100mhz-oscilloscope-probes-hands-on-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheapest-100mhz-oscilloscope-probes-hands-on-review/)

Edit: Did you compensate the probes on each device before the screenshots? Images like this say "uncompensated probe" to me:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1031238;image)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 24, 2020, 09:10:50 am
Once I have it I'll give it a look over.  My expectations are low, but we'll see.

User interface looks awful.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 24, 2020, 02:23:46 pm
Hi,

Got enough time to play with the siglent demoboard and made some captures of it, see below - Not too bad for this cheap thing, especially see the runt pulses/glitches.

Only the 50mV/div. thing is bad :
Take screenshots from my deskew fixture, one is with "large loop" ( 125mA*8 turns = 1A), the second is "small loop", which means 1 turn and 147mA.
And you see...nothing.
It couldn´t display the 15mV ( 100mV/A).

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 24, 2020, 06:20:06 pm
In a not at all bandwidth related exercise I tested the 1013D's battery life.

It ran continuously for 6 h 45 m while monitoring two phases of a 4-phase stepper motor being accelerated and cycled clockwise/anticlockwise over a 270° sweep, pulse frequencies 7 to 44 Hz...

Pretty damned good, first thing I've tested that bettered the claimed spec. It took a 3½ hours to recharge at 1.8 A tapering to 0.3 A over the last ½ hour...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 24, 2020, 09:24:17 pm
That's very good, but the MicSigs last as long too.  :-+
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: CDaniel on July 24, 2020, 09:51:25 pm
25MHz sinus looks pretty distorted , no wonder why the 10MHz square wave is odd .
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 24, 2020, 10:02:02 pm
25MHz sinus looks pretty distorted , no wonder why the 10MHz square wave is odd .

I believe it is an AM signal, unless I missed it the modulating frequency does not seem to be stated....
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 24, 2020, 10:05:32 pm
That's very good, but the MicSigs last as long too.  :-+

They cost 3.5 to 4 x more as well...

My Infiniti M37 is much better than many other cars, in fact the best car I have ever owned, at $52k it damned well should be. I suspect Rolls-Royce's are even nicer...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 24, 2020, 10:15:02 pm
25MHz sinus looks pretty distorted , no wonder why the 10MHz square wave is odd .

Hm, could test the FFT too.

Quote
I believe it is an AM signal, unless I missed it the modulating frequency does not seem to be stated....

One is the "pure" sinewave, the pic beside is the AM Signal with 25Mhz carrier and 2.5Mhz modulation signal.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Kosmic on July 25, 2020, 02:06:46 pm
I was wondering what the bandwidth was with the supplied probes in 1x mode. What would a 10Mhz square wave look like with probes in 1x mode?

This is all using the timing signals from the calibrator.  1 Vpp at 10 MHz, nominally squarewave.

The supplied probes were used first, both set to 1X.

 :-+

Food for thought. I'm surprised at how much difference the probes made at this frequency. There's other threads here that show even the cheapest eBay probes working fine at frequencies an order of magnitude higher.

eg. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheapest-100mhz-oscilloscope-probes-hands-on-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheapest-100mhz-oscilloscope-probes-hands-on-review/)

Edit: Did you compensate the probes on each device before the screenshots? Images like this say "uncompensated probe" to me:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1031238;image)

I got similar results testing the probe that came with my FNIRSI 5012H. Probe was compensated and then I used a 1V square wave at 2Mhz with 1ns Rise time.

Fnirsi probe:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1032676;image)

Generic P6100:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1032680;image)

Lecroy AP020:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1032684;image)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 25, 2020, 04:46:32 pm
The AP020 is a FET active probe, isn't it--a $550 (MSRP), $250 (used VG+) probe--that's comparing apples to lemons.

But I get your point, it shows that the signal is pretty damned clean...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Kosmic on July 25, 2020, 05:42:44 pm
The AP020 is a FET active probe, isn't it--a $550 (MSRP), $250 (used VG+) probe--that's comparing apples to lemons.

But I get your point, it shows that the signal is pretty damned clean...

Mostly there to show you what the source really look like. I'm not trying to insinuate that you can compare a 5$ to a 500$ probe.

the difference between the generic p6100 and the Fnirsi is interesting though.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2020, 06:44:14 pm
the difference between the generic p6100 and the Fnirsi is interesting though.

Yep, I'm wondering how a probe can be that bad when even $5 eBay probes seem to work well up to 300MHz.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: CDaniel on July 25, 2020, 07:10:16 pm
Chineese P6100 are crappy compared to brand probes , not linear even bellow 100MHz , so that Fnirsi  should be the crappiest probes ever made  :-DD
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 25, 2020, 10:34:00 pm
Chineese P6100 are crappy compared to brand probes , not linear even bellow 100MHz , so that Fnirsi  should be the crappiest probes ever made  :-DD

The probes that came with mine are just plain ol' Chinese P6100s¹--there would be no reason for FNIRSI to make their own, as l suspect in China P6100s come with Happy Meals :

(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/Probes-00.JPG)

------------------------------------------
¹ - Now pretty much generic, and most likely actually made by 37 or more manufacturers. From what I can tell, in Shenzhen, you cannot swing a dead cat without striking at least a dozen electronics producers.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 26, 2020, 05:28:44 am
Food for thought. I'm surprised at how much difference the probes made at this frequency. There's other threads here that show even the cheapest eBay probes working fine at frequencies an order of magnitude higher.

eg. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheapest-100mhz-oscilloscope-probes-hands-on-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheapest-100mhz-oscilloscope-probes-hands-on-review/)

Edit: Did you compensate the probes on each device before the screenshots? Images like this say "uncompensated probe" to me:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1031238;image)

Yeah, at the 1X setting no compensation seemed to work for the supplied probes.  So I compensated at 10X properly, then just set them to 1X.   :-//

Did the same with the Siglent probes, which at least seemed to behave as expected.

Rotten apple to rotten apple comparison.   :-+
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on July 26, 2020, 05:29:39 am
Funny how things are. In the early 1970's  a 20mhz scope was easily 600 bucks. This one would
have cost 30.00 back then. It would have changed so many things (limitations or not). So many
people would have had one and that would have educated so many people.

I say good job to the company that squeezed this out. Now can they come out a better one? I hope
so and if they can keep the price as is, it could make them millions. Yes they lied about the specs, so
what else is new. Companies lie, politicians lie and so many others. Tell them they are wrong and
perhaps how to fix the problem. Politicians just need to be voted out and maybe locked up.

This is a great thread. I wish everyone luck. 
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 26, 2020, 05:35:24 am
Once I have it I'll give it a look over.  My expectations are low, but we'll see.

User interface looks awful.

Probably going to be hideous.  UI is one area where the Chinese don't seem to bother spending much effort.  Even very accurate, well engineered, equipment can have a godawful UI.

Then there's ridiculous hardware interface stuff like some of Rigol's instruments with slanted buttons and multiple fonts...  Why?   :palm:

(Does anyone know the answer to the mystery as to why so many cheap Chinese devices use that hideous serif font?  As an example, the FeelTech / FeelElec devices I have use it.  Is it just built-in to a build package and they can't be arsed to use a decent font?)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 26, 2020, 05:39:59 am
In a not at all bandwidth related exercise I tested the 1013D's battery life.

It ran continuously for 6 h 45 m while monitoring two phases of a 4-phase stepper motor being accelerated and cycled clockwise/anticlockwise over a 270° sweep, pulse frequencies 7 to 44 Hz...

Pretty damned good, first thing I've tested that bettered the claimed spec. It took a 3½ hours to recharge at 1.8 A tapering to 0.3 A over the last ½ hour...

Aligns with what I have found.

Turn it on, forget that it is still running, go back two hours later, still plenty of power.  Would be a good in-the-field device if they could improve the UI and accuracy.  (Still limited by triggering options, capture depth, etc. – so not going to replace a 'real' portable 'scope for some applications.)

Plug it in to a PC or what have you, and it's fully charged very quickly.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 26, 2020, 05:45:33 am
I got similar results testing the probe that came with my FNIRSI 5012H. Probe was compensated and then I used a 1V square wave at 2Mhz with 1ns Rise time.

Fnirsi probe:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1032676;image)

Generic P6100:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1032680;image)

Lecroy AP020:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1032684;image)

Possibly not my ineptness, then.

I tried adjusting both probes with the signal applied, and couldn't get any noticeable change at 1X.   :-//

Then the second probe was really bouncing around on that leading edge, while the first was pretty consistent.

Garbage probes, I guess.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 26, 2020, 05:52:29 am
The probes that came with mine are just plain ol' Chinese P6100s¹--there would be no reason for FNIRSI to make their own, as l suspect in China P6100s come with Happy Meals :

(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/Probes-00.JPG)

------------------------------------------
¹ - Now pretty much generic, and most likely actually made by 37 or more manufacturers. From what I can tell, in Shenzhen, you cannot swing a dead cat without striking at least a dozen electronics producers.

The "P6100" probes with my FNIRSI look slightly different to those pictured.  Text on labels is finer, moulded text shown in pic beside CE marking is absent, and possibly the moulded "X1" and "X10" are different.

Maybe my mysterious no-nameplate 'scope-type-thing was fished out of the same dumpster as some knock-off P6100s?   :-DD
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on July 26, 2020, 06:03:25 am

I tried adjusting both probes with the signal applied, and couldn't get any noticeable change at 1X.   :-//

You can't compensate probes on 1x only on 10x. The compensation trimmer cap is not part of the 1x probe circuit.
Still, the probes trimming range must suit the input capacitance of the scopes input for 10x work when matching probes to scopes. Yet it is just not that simple either as a probes frequency response when swept to a scopes max BW and beyond needs be a flat as possible for measurements at any rated frequency to be reasonably accurate.

FYI for any instrument tests it's always best to use direct BNC cable connections and assess the probes independently/separately.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 26, 2020, 09:22:52 am

I tried adjusting both probes with the signal applied, and couldn't get any noticeable change at 1X.   :-//

You can't compensate probes on 1x only on 10x. The compensation trimmer cap is not part of the 1x probe circuit.
Still, the probes trimming range must suit the input capacitance of the scopes input for 10x work when matching probes to scopes. Yet it is just not that simple either as a probes frequency response when swept to a scopes max BW and beyond needs be a flat as possible for measurements at any rated frequency to be reasonably accurate.

FYI for any instrument tests it's always best to use direct BNC cable connections and assess the probes independently/separately.

^+1, beat me to it...

I have always found that 10X passive HF probes MUST be adjusted at each use, with the scope set to the vertical gain and coupling at which you ill be performing your observations. I do not have much need for them in the work I generally perform (automotive repair & audio), and even those I have from Agilent, Lecroy, and Tektronix seem to behave differently at each use...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 26, 2020, 09:35:57 am
The "P6100" probes with my FNIRSI look slightly different to those pictured.  Text on labels is finer, moulded text shown in pic beside CE marking is absent, and possibly the moulded "X1" and "X10" are different.

Maybe my mysterious no-nameplate 'scope-type-thing was fished out of the same dumpster as some knock-off P6100s?   :-DD

I just scrounged through my "junk drawer" and found similar labeling and slight molding discrepancies with the dozen or so  "P6100" probes I have accumulated. Even if there is just one maker such inconsistencies could be expected between production runs--differently sourced labels, new/repaired molds, etc.

My great-grandson referred to the FNIRSI ADS5012H I had briefly as an"oscilloscope emulator"...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: CDaniel on July 26, 2020, 11:11:22 am
Who knows how many let's say "companies" produce P6100 probes ... hard to believe it is just one in the whole China  :D Because is low quality and cheap to made
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 26, 2020, 11:21:23 am
What tools did you use for these nice screenshots? :)

I got similar results testing the probe that came with my FNIRSI 5012H. Probe was compensated and then I used a 1V square wave at 2Mhz with 1ns Rise time.

Fnirsi probe:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1032676;image)

Generic P6100:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1032680;image)

Lecroy AP020:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1032684;image)

Possibly not my ineptness, then.

I tried adjusting both probes with the signal applied, and couldn't get any noticeable change at 1X.   :-//

Then the second probe was really bouncing around on that leading edge, while the first was pretty consistent.

Garbage probes, I guess.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on July 26, 2020, 11:44:10 am
Who knows how many let's say "companies" produce P6100 probes ... hard to believe it is just one in the whole China  :D Because is low quality and cheap to made
Just one company makes the P6100 probes.
They have been making probes for decades and make many more than just P6000 models.

Other Chinese probe manufacturers exist too.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Kosmic on July 26, 2020, 03:47:43 pm
What tools did you use for these nice screenshots? :)

Simple screen grab from my lecroy scope.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Kosmic on July 26, 2020, 03:51:31 pm
Who knows how many let's say "companies" produce P6100 probes ... hard to believe it is just one in the whole China  :D Because is low quality and cheap to made
Just one company makes the P6100 probes.
They have been making probes for decades and make many more than just P6000 models.

Other Chinese probe manufacturers exist too.

Not too sure about that. The generic 6100 (I have 4 identical samples bought from different sources) and FNIRSI Probes are not exactly the same. All generic 6100 in my possession look the same and behave the same. The FNIRSI probe is physically different and behave differently.

Generic 6100 on the left,  FNIRSI probe on the right.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1033510;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1033514;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1033518;image)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 26, 2020, 03:58:04 pm
The 6100 probe is probably like the DT830 multimeter - dozens of people trying to outdo each other in cost cutting.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Kosmic on July 26, 2020, 04:06:08 pm
the difference between the generic p6100 and the Fnirsi is interesting though.

Yep, I'm wondering how a probe can be that bad when even $5 eBay probes seem to work well up to 300MHz.

I would say they work okish up to 50Mhz (FNIRSI more 25Mhz). 300Mhz not really. Like CDaniel mentioned, linearity is not really good.

I did some tests with a noise source over here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2416473/#msg2416473 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2416473/#msg2416473)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2860544/#msg2860544 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2860544/#msg2860544)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: CDaniel on July 26, 2020, 05:50:15 pm
The 300MHz claim , if true , was perhaps from a lucky buyer who got something else ... but this cheap probes are pretty bad .
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on July 26, 2020, 08:15:26 pm
Who knows how many let's say "companies" produce P6100 probes ... hard to believe it is just one in the whole China  :D Because is low quality and cheap to made
Just one company makes the P6100 probes.
They have been making probes for decades and make many more than just P6000 models.

Other Chinese probe manufacturers exist too.

Not too sure about that. The generic 6100 (I have 4 identical samples bought from different sources) and FNIRSI Probes are not exactly the same. All generic 6100 in my possession look the same and behave the same. The FNIRSI probe is physically different and behave differently.

Generic 6100 on the left,  FNIRSI probe on the right.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1033510;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1033514;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1033518;image)
Yes but look at your second image, one probe is certainly a copy as it's NOT a P6100.

Of a good few P6100's I've bought over the years all have been from different sources yet by the same manufacturer which after considerable hunting I was able to find however they wouldn't deal with small fry like me.

Now I just get PP510 from Siglent as they are reasonably priced.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 26, 2020, 08:55:37 pm

I would say they work okish up to 50Mhz (FNIRSI more 25Mhz). 300Mhz not really. Like CDaniel mentioned, linearity is not really good.

I did some tests with a noise source over here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2416473/#msg2416473 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2416473/#msg2416473)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2860544/#msg2860544 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2860544/#msg2860544)

Excellent analysis! Stable, repeatable, flat response is much more important than peak response.

That reported 300 MHz response could have been peakiness from a maladjusted probe. I found that when  using the supplied X10 probe and playing with probe compensation, I could get my 1013D to display a reasonable representation of an 85 MHz sine wave.


a "sort of" related analogy:

With automobile engines peak H.P. of an engine is an interesting number--power generally happens briefly, just before you shift--but the level and flatness of the torque curve are much more important to real world performance on the street...

The original (1995) Honda S2000 delivered 247 H.P. @ 8600 RPM, but just 75 to 120 H.P. from 2500 to 5000 RPM, and barely able to launch itself from a stop. You had to "rev" it to 6 or 7 grand to get a respectable launch--whereupon everyone watching was wondering "WTF is wrong with that A-hole".

In the end it was just a plain ol' 150 H.P Jap 4-banger built to withstand 9000 RPM, and tuned to make the marketing people happy by producing an unusable horsepower "peak" at that engine speed. It was not at all a fun car to drive, which is the whole point of "sports cars".

The best description I ever saw was that "it is a great car as long as you drive it like you just stole it."

My point is that examining only a single characteristic of anything (oscilloscope probes, automobiles, or elephants) will earn you just a singular and partial perception  of it's value and utility. 

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Kosmic on July 26, 2020, 09:49:40 pm
Code: [Select]
Who knows how many let's say "companies" produce P6100 probes ... hard to believe it is just one in the whole China  :D Because is low quality and cheap to made
Just one company makes the P6100 probes.
They have been making probes for decades and make many more than just P6000 models.

Other Chinese probe manufacturers exist too.

Not too sure about that. The generic 6100 (I have 4 identical samples bought from different sources) and FNIRSI Probes are not exactly the same. All generic 6100 in my possession look the same and behave the same. The FNIRSI probe is physically different and behave differently.

Generic 6100 on the left,  FNIRSI probe on the right.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1033510;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1033514;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1033518;image)
Yes but look at your second image, one probe is certainly a copy as it's NOT a P6100.

Of a good few P6100's I've bought over the years all have been from different sources yet by the same manufacturer which after considerable hunting I was able to find however they wouldn't deal with small fry like me.

Now I just get PP510 from Siglent as they are reasonably priced.

I also have one exactly similar to the "6100" but marked "P6100" instead.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1033746;image)

Just do a search for "p6100 probe" on ebay. They are all marked as p6100 but are all a little bit different. I don't think there's only one producer  :)

Anyway my point is, the P6100 probes from FNIRSI are particularly bad.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on July 26, 2020, 09:51:39 pm
Now we know all and enough about the probes... 8)

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 27, 2020, 12:19:58 am
I also have one exactly similar to the "6100" but marked "P6100" instead.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1033746;image)

Just do a search for "p6100 probe" on ebay. They are all marked as p6100 but are all a little bit different. I don't think there's only one producer  :)

Anyway my point is, the P6100 probes from FNIRSI are particularly bad.

You got my curiosity up and I did take a look at eBay's listings, something that caught my eye was how many vendors were touting their product's ability to work with "HP and Tektronix" 'scopes--HP hasn't made a 'scope in over 20 years. I'm not sure if Agilent still makes them
.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 27, 2020, 07:24:54 am
You got my curiosity up and I did take a look at eBay's listings, something that caught my eye was how many vendors were touting their product's ability to work with "HP and Tektronix" 'scopes--HP hasn't made a 'scope in over 20 years. I'm not sure if Agilent still makes them
.

No.  Keysight is the 'inheritor' of Agilent / HP / Hewlett Packard (remember back then?) oscilloscopes and other electrical measuring instrumentation.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 27, 2020, 07:29:53 am

I tried adjusting both probes with the signal applied, and couldn't get any noticeable change at 1X.   :-//

You can't compensate probes on 1x only on 10x. The compensation trimmer cap is not part of the 1x probe circuit.

I thought that was the case, but couldn't be bothered checking.  I don't think I have ever used probes set to 1X.

Quote
FYI for any instrument tests it's always best to use direct BNC cable connections and assess the probes independently/separately.

Yes, which is what I did earlier by directly connecting the Active Heads.  'Fungus' wanted some info using the supplied probes set to 1X, so that's what I did.

It's interesting that the Siglent probes respond radically differently.  What is the expected frequency limit for these when set to 1X?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2020, 07:35:20 am
The original (1995) Honda S2000 delivered 247 H.P. @ 8600 RPM, but just 75 to 120 H.P. from 2500 to 5000 RPM, and barely able to launch itself from a stop. You had to "rev" it to 6 or 7 grand to get a respectable launch--whereupon everyone watching was wondering "WTF is wrong with that A-hole".

That's because it was built to be driven, not to be "launched".

Take one out on some twisty mountain roads sometime.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on July 27, 2020, 07:48:18 am
It's interesting that the Siglent probes respond radically differently.  What is the expected frequency limit for these when set to 1X?
For your SDS1202X-E its PP215 probes are 200 MHz probes and are listed as capable of just 6 MHz in 1x mode:
https://siglentna.com/product/pp215-200-mhz-oscilloscope-probe/
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 27, 2020, 07:57:20 am
The original (1995) Honda S2000 delivered 247 H.P. @ 8600 RPM, but just 75 to 120 H.P. from 2500 to 5000 RPM, and barely able to launch itself from a stop. You had to "rev" it to 6 or 7 grand to get a respectable launch--whereupon everyone watching was wondering "WTF is wrong with that A-hole".

That's because it was built to be driven, not to be "launched".

Take one out on some twisty mountain roads sometime.  :popcorn:

Bollocks. No torque no push, no push no fun, simple as that. It's a girly car anyways.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 27, 2020, 07:58:16 am

With automobile engines peak H.P. of an engine is an interesting number--power generally happens briefly, just before you shift--but the level and flatness of the torque curve are much more important to real world performance on the street...

The original (1995) Honda S2000 delivered 247 H.P. @ 8600 RPM, but just 75 to 120 H.P. from 2500 to 5000 RPM, and barely able to launch itself from a stop. You had to "rev" it to 6 or 7 grand to get a respectable launch--whereupon everyone watching was wondering "WTF is wrong with that A-hole".

In the end it was just a plain ol' 150 H.P Jap 4-banger built to withstand 9000 RPM, and tuned to make the marketing people happy by producing an unusable horsepower "peak" at that engine speed. It was not at all a fun car to drive, which is the whole point of "sports cars".

The best description I ever saw was that "it is a great car as long as you drive it like you just stole it."


And that is why I was able to humiliate a guy driving Mustang SVT with a "stupid little golf cart"(his words) Golf GTI (stock) up the short, few miles stretch up the mountains in Pennsylvania...  He almost got killed twice and was making smoke mostly while I was taking curve by curve at blazing speed... He was paying for the lunch for a week...

You're supposed to drive it like you stole it.. Race car driver that keeps engine anywhere less than 4/5  or more of it's rev range at all times is not much of a driver ..

You would also probably laugh at Class A racing Yugo, that had 230 HP from 1300cc (at 11000 RPM, ceramic pistons) and 650 Kilos... And 17" Lockheed brake disks with 4 cylinder calipers. But if a pro racer would drive you on hill climb with it, you would be very, very afraid..
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 27, 2020, 08:05:15 am
The original (1995) Honda S2000 delivered 247 H.P. @ 8600 RPM, but just 75 to 120 H.P. from 2500 to 5000 RPM, and barely able to launch itself from a stop. You had to "rev" it to 6 or 7 grand to get a respectable launch--whereupon everyone watching was wondering "WTF is wrong with that A-hole".

That's because it was built to be driven, not to be "launched".

Take one out on some twisty mountain roads sometime.  :popcorn:

Bollocks. No torque no push, no push no fun, simple as that. It's a girly car anyways.

Read a physics book. Power is RPM time torque time constant.
Torque at wheels happens in gearbox and diff ratios.

If you set gearbox for same speed at max power two cars with same HP will have same torque at wheels at same HP despite having it at different RPMs.

Torque curve is different thing.. If you have engine that has lots of torque at all RPMs you will be faster and easier to drive, because you have wider powerband.. Forced induction engines are nice that way.

But on a race car, you simply keep it in powerband and that's it.



Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 27, 2020, 08:11:12 am
Yeah, power is torque x rpm, choose your venom. But keep in mind that on the streets you can't drive like a maniac. That's why EVs are so fun to drive.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 27, 2020, 08:15:22 am
Yeah, power is torque x rpm, choose your venom. But keep in mind that on the streets you can't drive like a maniac. That's why EVs are so fun to drive.

Of course you can...  >:D

And yeah, EV are pure fun...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2020, 08:41:07 am
Just do a search for "p6100 probe" on ebay. They are all marked as p6100 but are all a little bit different. I don't think there's only one producer  :)

And they're all marked as "high quality".  :scared:
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 27, 2020, 08:45:21 am
Read a physics book.

I read a bunch of them in school some years back--(MSME MIT '71).

Do you know where that "torque time constant" number (5252) comes from?

James Watt decided that a "good dray horse" could deliver 33,000 ft·lbf/ minute (actually he calculated 32,572, which was "rounded" to 33,000).

33,000 / 6.28 (pi X 2) = 5252...

Sounds as though you might be interested in my "How Much HP to Go How Fast? (http://www.paladinmicro.com/?frm=HPvsSpeedCalc.htm)" calculator. It defaults to "New Edge" Mustang properties, but they can be changed to match any car's specs.



Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2020, 10:29:46 am
At least we've all moved on from units like "feet"...  :scared:
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 27, 2020, 11:53:09 am
At least we've all moved on from units like "feet"...  :scared:
What's wrong with feet? I have two, use them all the time, marvelous stuff... :-DD
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on July 27, 2020, 02:10:45 pm
At least we've all moved on from units like "feet"...  :scared:

Not here in the "colonies", English/Imperial measure is still the official standard--us long with Myanmar (I don't even like saying that word) and Liberia.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 28, 2020, 09:53:09 am
Not here in the "colonies",

The Colonies that were treasonous terrorists...   ;)

Most of Britain's fading Empire went metric at some stage.

Quote
English/Imperial measure is still the official standard--us long with Myanmar (I don't even like saying that word) and Liberia.

Liberia doesn't really count, as that's the ex-slaves that were keen on 'going back to Africa' and thus technically also a sub-set of 'Muricans.

Myanmar / Burma must still love that Imperial legacy – or they're simply too poor to pay for the required changes.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: iscle on July 30, 2020, 10:16:12 pm
Update on me trying to port U-Boot + Linux on the scope.

It turns out that the LCD backlight is controlled by the FPGA, which gets instructed by the original code to turn it on on boot. This means that the CPU<->FPGA protocol has to be reverse-engineered, or the FPGA code replaced with new code just to get the backlight working.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 31, 2020, 02:21:00 pm
Figure out which FPGA pin controls it, make some FPGA code to just set that pin and nothing more. Do the rest later :-)

Edit: Or.... just use the existing FPGA code and send it the command to turn the lights on.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on July 31, 2020, 06:06:02 pm
Figure out which FPGA pin controls it, make some FPGA code to just set that pin and nothing more. Do the rest later :-)

Edit: Or.... just use the existing FPGA code and send it the command to turn the lights on.

Or just cut the trace running to that pin and tie it to the logic level you need.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on August 07, 2020, 09:50:53 am
Well, I've had it for 3 weeks now, used it in real automotive and motorcycle diagnostic work 3 or 4 times, and find I like it. It is too bad the maker/vendors feel compelled to grossly overstate its specifications--but a handy 30 mhz 2-channel 'scope in a compact 7" tablet form for $165 is not too bad...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: robca on August 10, 2020, 09:28:50 pm
The Banggood version is down to $119 https://www.banggood.com/DANIU-ADS1013D-2-Channels-100MHz-Band-Width-1GSa-or-s-Sampling-Rate-Oscilloscope-with-7-Inch-Color-TFT-LCD-Touch-Screen-p-1641865.html (https://www.banggood.com/DANIU-ADS1013D-2-Channels-100MHz-Band-Width-1GSa-or-s-Sampling-Rate-Oscilloscope-with-7-Inch-Color-TFT-LCD-Touch-Screen-p-1641865.html)

As usual, 5 star rating, given that for the last couple of years Banggood only allows 4 and 5 star reviews to be published. If you submit a 1 or 2 star review, it's never published, a well as most 3 star ones. Some people even resort to posting negative reviews, but with 4 or 5 star ratings just ot be able to post something negative (Banggood bots don't seem to pay attention to the content of the review, just the stars)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on August 10, 2020, 09:46:14 pm
In this case I won´t worry about it - For it´s price I would give it a 4-5 star rating, no doubt about it.
Still it´s a toy against "real scopes", but it´s the first of the real cheaps, you can partly work with it.


Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on September 02, 2020, 01:13:26 pm
Hi,

As the scope couldn´t measure in normal trigger mode, I´ve asked them if there will be any firmware upgrade in the future, to fix that.
This was on 13th august.
Today I receive an answer:

Quote
ReplyContent:
hi, friend
The situation you said is measurable, you can contact the store where you bought this product, and she will help you solve this problem. Thank you for your message and wish you a happy life!
ReplyDatetime:
2020-09-02 14:47

OK, I´m going to ask AMAZON... :-DD
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Dbuezas on September 06, 2020, 04:00:09 pm
[How to fix irresponsive touchscreen] [with solution]

Hi,

Story
I received a broken unit: the touchscreen was very irresponsive and would jump all over the place  :-BROKE. I think the unit Dave tested had a similar issue at the beginning of his video, but mine was WAY worse. Not usable at all.

I tried to send it back, but aliexpress decided I should pay for the postage and since I rejected that, they stopped asking me and refunded 30€ back. GREAT! I have a 100€ paperweight!  :palm:
I thought it may had a bad solder joint or some solder bridge so I took it apart a month ago, cleaned some solder droplets and cleaned and reconnected the display flat cables. That didn't do s*t.
Yesterday I decided to give it a second try before I throw it away and since it is trash I was very careless and started touching everything with bare hands. Maybe some static fixes it hehe. And then something happened  :phew::

Confusion
I connected the clock line of the I2C to another oscilloscope and realised the clock was not a nice square wave all the time, so I looked a bit closer and realised there is what seems to be a cap there (see question 1). The other side of the cap is neither ground nor vcc, it is another different square signal even of a different frequency (Question 2).
-> see img2.jpeg

Lucky Fix
Anyway, I realised that the touchscreen worked perfectly while I was touching the ends of the cap with my bare hands  :-DD, and since both sides are connected through resistors, I decided the added capacitance was what was fixing it.
So I tried a couple of low value caps (1pF, 5pF, 10pF and 100pF) and they all made things a bit better, but the 100pF one made it just PERFECT  :-DMM!
-> see img1.jpeg

Questions
1. Why is there a cap connected to SCL? 
1.1 That's a capacitor, right?
2. Why is the cap connected across two signal lines?
2.1 I never saw anything like that in I2C lines, is this some advance hack?
2.2 What could the other signal be?
3. Why do you think the touchscreen was defective in the first place?

Last words
This neat toy is now fully functional as far as I can tell. I'm obviously a hobbyist so although I hope this may help somebody else, this opened a bunch of questions for me. I'd be very thankful if some of the old wolves here could clarify wtf is a cap doing in an I2C line and why it is connected across two signal lines.
Sorry if this appears more than once, last two posts didn't work, probably imgs too big
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on September 06, 2020, 04:31:46 pm
Hi,

As the scope couldn´t measure in normal trigger mode, I´ve asked them if there will be any firmware upgrade in the future, to fix that.
This was on 13th august.
Today I receive an answer:

Quote
ReplyContent:
hi, friend
The situation you said is measurable, you can contact the store where you bought this product, and she will help you solve this problem. Thank you for your message and wish you a happy life!
ReplyDatetime:
2020-09-02 14:47

OK, I´m going to ask AMAZON... :-DD

I was more than willing to pay $45 more and get mine from Amazon--I've been banged good by a number of the online Asian vendors too many times to ever buy from them again. With AZ Prime, I received the instrument in 2 days as opposed to 2 months; and you simply have to say "I don't like it" and next thing you know you'll have a UPS return label and usually a refund within 1 hour of dropping the package off at UPS. 
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on September 07, 2020, 02:20:07 am
[How to fix irresponsive touchscreen] [with solution]

So I tried a couple of low value caps (1pF, 5pF, 10pF and 100pF) and they all made things a bit better, but the 100pF one made it just PERFECT  :-DMM!

Maybe a bad cap in there?  Did you measure it?

The soldering looks OK, but if it's a dud cap the QC (:-DD) probably won't find such an issue.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Kean on September 07, 2020, 03:21:17 am
Questions
1. Why is there a cap connected to SCL? 
1.1 That's a capacitor, right?
2. Why is the cap connected across two signal lines?
2.1 I never saw anything like that in I2C lines, is this some advance hack?
2.2 What could the other signal be?
3. Why do you think the touchscreen was defective in the first place?

My Answers
1. No idea
1.1. Certainly looks like it
2. No idea
2.1. Me either - maybe the touch controller datasheet had it in the reference design  :-//
2.2. Looks like SDA - based on the 2 pullup resistors
3. The capacitor plus pullup resistors that are too high in value would probably make the I2C signals a mess

In summary
The cap appears to be placed across SDA and SCL.  That makes pretty much no sense.  You want minimal capacitance on those signals.
The two resistors would appear to be the I2C pullups, and have an EIA marking of "01C" or 10k.  10k is a bit too high for 3.3V I2C signals.
Around 3k3 would be better for 3.3V logic, with no additional capacitance.
A scope might be useful to check the signal integrity...  >:D
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 07, 2020, 07:37:50 am
The cap appears to be placed across SDA and SCL.  That makes pretty much no sense.

Maybe some intern added it because:
a) They have the wrong pullups
b) It didn't work reliably and kept locking up the I2C bus (because of A)
c) They had no clue about I2C (see point A) and by dumb luck the cap seemed to do something (maybe it keeps the lines somewhere in the middle instead of them going all the way down to ground).

Around 3k3 would be better for 3.3V logic, with no additional capacitance.

Even that's a bit high, IMHO. I'd be looking under 1k.

maybe the touch controller datasheet had it in the reference design

Very doubtful.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: SmokeyTheElectrician on September 08, 2020, 11:57:07 am
...
Waveform captures are 15 000 bytes.  Take slightly longer than a screen capture - maybe 2.5 seconds.  Why 15 000 bytes?  Don't know.  Perhaps that's the full memory for data points?
...

Yep, that is exactly why. The Cyclone IV ep4ce6 has 270,000 bits of memory.
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/programmable/us/en/pdfs/literature/hb/cyclone-iv/cyiv-51001.pdf (https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/programmable/us/en/pdfs/literature/hb/cyclone-iv/cyiv-51001.pdf)
Divide by 9 ( 8 bits data and 1 parity bit ) is 30,000, divided between the 2 channels is 15,000 samples.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin.M on September 13, 2020, 05:10:47 pm
Still a dual channel 20MHz 7" touch screen portable tablet scope for $140 isn't bad.

I have buyed the 20MHz scope today.  :)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: btidey on September 28, 2020, 01:54:48 pm
I am a recent purchaser knowing that the specs were fantasy but so far I am well pleased with the device for the modest outlay.

One thing I am investigating is how to interpret the waveform .wav files as this can be useful for long term storage and further analysis on a computer. The aim is to write a script to transform the wav format into something more friendly like a spreadsheet or csv file. I am using intermediate versions of this to allow comparison between captures with different settings, data etc.

What I have discovered so far about the 15000 byte files is

0-999 Header data
1000 - 3999 CH1 data1
4000 - 6999 CH2 data1
7000 - 8499 CH1 data2
8500 - 9999 CH2 data2
10000 - 14999 seems to be just nulls in my captures so far.

The header data
CH1 vertical scale at 4 where 0-6 represents 5.0V,2.5V,1.0V,500mV,200mV,100mV,50mV/div
CH2 vertical scale at 14 (same as CH1

Time scale at 22 (repeated at 52 where 0 - 29 represents
50S,20S,10S,5S,2S,1S,500mS,200mS,100mS,50mS,20mS,10ms,5mS,2mS,1mS,
500uS,200uS,100uS,50uS,20uS,10uS,5uS,2uS,1uS,500nS,200nS,100nS,50nS,20nS,10nS

Ch1 measurements at 208 - 255 (12 4byte fields)
Ch2 measurements at 256 - 303 (12 4byte fields)

Ch dataBlock1 1500 2 byte fields (little endian) which represent in some way the vertical measurement on the screen.  I.e. doubling sensitivity doubles the values in this block.

I would be interested if anybody has any knowledge or insights in this area e.g. similarity to other formats, so I can avoid unnecessary work.

My current investigation is focussed on two area.

1) The representation of the data in dataBlocks1 and 2 in order to be able to transform it into 'real data'

2) The mapping of the measurement data regions on to the parameters and the encoding used in each 4 byte value. I have an inkling that the first byte is a type indicator and the next 3 are little endian values (maybe fixed point).






Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 28, 2020, 02:06:40 pm
I'd guess 'data1' is the raw sample data and 'data2' is what's shown on screen (double the number of horizontal pixels is quite common in 'scopes)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: btidey on September 28, 2020, 09:11:30 pm
Thanks.

Yes, that does seem to be the case for DataBlock2. If I compare a .bmp which is 800x400 it shows the active screen area as 750 pixels wide. The DataBlock2 is then the Y offset from the top of the screen for each of the 750 X positions.

The divisions on the screen are 50x50px so one could crudely extract values from the dataBlock2. More interesting is to use the values from DataBlock1 as that gives the full buffer.

The values in DataBlock1 do not appear to be raw ADC values but seem to  follow the same scale as the values in DataBlock2 but with a different baseline. E.g large square wave in DataBlock1 might have values 79 -> 391 corresponding to values 370 -> 58 in DataBlock2. Values are vertically mirroed as one might expect.

So I think DataBlock1 has been scaled to represent 50 / div. There are probably values in the hdr which give the baselines used> There will also be values giving things like vertical and horizontal offsets, trigger level etc. plus all other settings.

One trick they missed was allowing run after restoring a waveform as that would have been a neat way of saving / restoring setups.

 
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2020, 12:42:36 am
The values in DataBlock1 do not appear to be raw ADC values but seem to  follow the same scale as the values in DataBlock2 but with a different baseline.

ADC values are often scaled and only use 200 of the 256 available values when the screen is 400-pixels tall. This way there's a simple 2:1 mapping of values to screen pixels.

eg. The Rigol DS1054Z does this and I'm sure many others do, too.

Why? I think it's just to avoid doing a divide in the screen display functions (which would be needed if all 256 values were used).
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: btidey on September 29, 2020, 01:30:52 pm
Thanks.

The data buffer readings range 0 - 399 with 200 corresponding to 0. So with a 1V/div then 100 corresponds to -2.0V and 300 corresponds to +2.0V

However, it doesn't seem to be pure pixel doubling from an ADC range of 200 as both even and odd values appear in the buffer. E.g the top of a square wave can have values varying by 1.

I should be able to make a conversion that at least contains sensible data. I am working my way through capturing different settings like trigger so I can see how they are represented in the buffer.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2020, 03:42:24 pm
he data buffer readings range 0 - 399 with 200 corresponding to 0

They're 16-bits but only using 9 of them? That seems a bit of a waste.

IOW data1 is a 16-bit version of data2? 3000 bytes instead of 1500 bytes?

However, it doesn't seem to be pure pixel doubling from an ADC range of 200 as both even and odd values appear in the buffer. E.g the top of a square wave can have values varying by 1.

Maybe it's had sin(x)/x applied to it (or some other filter).
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: btidey on September 29, 2020, 09:53:41 pm
I think the use of 16 bit values is just because the numbers won't fit into 1 byte.

DataBlock2 is still 16 bit values but just showing the 750 display values instead of the 1500 values in the buffer.

I have updated further with latest results of investigation into header values with scope settings. Measures is still to be sorted out. Values need to have probe multiplier factored in.

I am keeping stuff including a test script at

https://github.com/roberttidey/FNISR1013DScope
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: btidey on September 30, 2020, 08:19:49 pm
I have now added onto the repository a python program FNISR1013D-JSON.py

When run it asks for a filename; enter the root filename of a wav file (e.g 9 for 9.wav). It will produce json file (9.json) containing the buffer and display data plus settings for the capture. The json format makes it easy to access the data.

Measures remain a work in progress as I have to figure out the encoding and mapping of the 24 byte measure fields.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: btidey on October 01, 2020, 08:52:01 pm
Mapping of measures onto header values is now added to the waveform file converter (python)

Most values seem Ok except for cycle and time+/- and I can't see at the moment how negative voltages are indicated. There is also appears to be a calibration factor for adjusting volates which may be in the header somewhere.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: btidey on October 02, 2020, 04:16:07 pm
The negative sign for voltage measures does not seem to be stored in the waveform file.

When a waveform capture is done then the absolute value is stored but when is restored then the signs of the values just pick up whatever the sign of the last live measurement was.

That's a bit of a drop off in the software.

It doesn't affect the data buffer values as they have an offset which effectively incorporates the sign.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: immajor on October 21, 2020, 07:24:48 am
Hi all!

Do you have any information of this version of the 1013D scope?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-7-Inch-Digital-Tablet-Oscilloscope-2CH-100MHz-Bandwidth-1GS-Sampling-Rate/224201664489?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item343375e7e9:g:PdkAAOSwp~BfjsN-&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkgCVySCgrNFPU8Iu85TabMFYhTVo3IqM%252FzGKGR3vdVEabyJHulwQChdSzH6KB94GZYu5MfT6rgNAtaRGTLIUCpexTIvDGcslyjO1hK3M2%252FbEG4cGjxtoUD%252F2ZDg4KfW1C%252BN9jXqLwnEVvwu%252BHvNrvYuqy0fQ1bWeGq7q4bvIcoJc6Mwyk3PjOvMRN5zKAxqi1aYvq5e3xZ5klYZvfRbM6%252Bn%252F%252Fv1ztctMIttzW5S8wEL2xGOj5xVD0dLo1iISebA%252Fos5f%252B5fO7DJQ7iY78%252FRoQi5ZGvm6Jj8G6qfNhIJlMLtsGqoY6VLDx9QGz9%252B6fTmN%252FO3rcGuv9oOin8OcYmsKWOS6xdvkYK0lL108W0tI3CXtqh94BXcVHAWmK5fTFTtM%252BgdllyAPIe7RwpYE3gK8iC4UyIwvNmYOslL%252FLXNWD6qNw%252FX8WmfLugV%252Byms2puXbjiyotkNPg7mrIv57JYNwrLYbAyDMH34ULzVuwlA88FRib5zq%252FopcduRZNKB1UCwtex6x8BGdKl3cpB6m9pK01divmHpVTM9ZLIB2CFNTGA%252BY2cuPQtxy6IU2yr97ZX8RUaBTV69jfIJQRS9p9CvYe71tNHmqW3V3PaMfHV0vt9aZQkqK4%252BrVefjcIyssKPAYvPb2SrfPcdUtC7yPsoztXbZtXncqXdnRcjimDbvoaNeTome08J%252Fst6ZHmhGw9PffHgQZN5R9ONmVkdmtKL5JuchMkQxPH7jhd5mJQaxwzO5cbiquZQx544ZZq6Amomtt41SxRmeqNW4NQW8rsykhdbw%253D%253D%7Ccksum%3A2242016644897785032e25c64909a60ad94dfafb7960%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-7-Inch-Digital-Tablet-Oscilloscope-2CH-100MHz-Bandwidth-1GS-Sampling-Rate/224201664489?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item343375e7e9:g:PdkAAOSwp~BfjsN-&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkgCVySCgrNFPU8Iu85TabMFYhTVo3IqM%252FzGKGR3vdVEabyJHulwQChdSzH6KB94GZYu5MfT6rgNAtaRGTLIUCpexTIvDGcslyjO1hK3M2%252FbEG4cGjxtoUD%252F2ZDg4KfW1C%252BN9jXqLwnEVvwu%252BHvNrvYuqy0fQ1bWeGq7q4bvIcoJc6Mwyk3PjOvMRN5zKAxqi1aYvq5e3xZ5klYZvfRbM6%252Bn%252F%252Fv1ztctMIttzW5S8wEL2xGOj5xVD0dLo1iISebA%252Fos5f%252B5fO7DJQ7iY78%252FRoQi5ZGvm6Jj8G6qfNhIJlMLtsGqoY6VLDx9QGz9%252B6fTmN%252FO3rcGuv9oOin8OcYmsKWOS6xdvkYK0lL108W0tI3CXtqh94BXcVHAWmK5fTFTtM%252BgdllyAPIe7RwpYE3gK8iC4UyIwvNmYOslL%252FLXNWD6qNw%252FX8WmfLugV%252Byms2puXbjiyotkNPg7mrIv57JYNwrLYbAyDMH34ULzVuwlA88FRib5zq%252FopcduRZNKB1UCwtex6x8BGdKl3cpB6m9pK01divmHpVTM9ZLIB2CFNTGA%252BY2cuPQtxy6IU2yr97ZX8RUaBTV69jfIJQRS9p9CvYe71tNHmqW3V3PaMfHV0vt9aZQkqK4%252BrVefjcIyssKPAYvPb2SrfPcdUtC7yPsoztXbZtXncqXdnRcjimDbvoaNeTome08J%252Fst6ZHmhGw9PffHgQZN5R9ONmVkdmtKL5JuchMkQxPH7jhd5mJQaxwzO5cbiquZQx544ZZq6Amomtt41SxRmeqNW4NQW8rsykhdbw%253D%253D%7Ccksum%3A2242016644897785032e25c64909a60ad94dfafb7960%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524)

Is it a fake?  :wtf:  The "specs" are the same, but the price is too good to be true :(

Sorry for the big pic, I cannot find a smaller.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XeYAAOSw5MxfjsNA/s-l1600.jpg)
(counterfeit, counterfit, forgery)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: immajor on October 21, 2020, 07:51:58 am
By the time I would have order it, it was sold out, but I found another listing with the same price and I ordered it. We will see what is it :)

But in the meantime as I see they are changing back the pricing of the other listings to ~150USD :(
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on October 21, 2020, 08:53:13 pm
Quote
Is it a fake?

I don´t think it is.
It will be always the same hardware under different names = vendors.
My Fnirsi is a Yeapook.. ;)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: hughtmccullough on October 22, 2020, 04:28:37 pm
Banggood sell both this one and the original one.  They call this the "upgraded" version with the following improvements:

"Comparison between the new version and the previous version:
1. Product functions and parameters have not changed.
2. Replacement and improved appearance: the screen is replaced with a toughened glass screen, which is more wear-resistant and sturdy; the probe socket is also hidden, which is more beautiful. The overall appearance is more beautiful~"

So, if beauty is what you are after...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: immajor on October 22, 2020, 05:57:37 pm
So, if beauty is what you are after...
:-DD
(sorry for the extra post, but I had to react to this)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on October 25, 2020, 10:30:42 pm
To me the case difference is probably that the original was supposed to have a boot. Curved corners unprotected power and BNC conns. The new case sinks the power switch and so on.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: zamator on October 26, 2020, 12:56:39 pm
Hi! Is there a way to index the saved screenshot? The date does not change. Can the clock be started somehow?[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Numex106 on November 11, 2020, 08:11:20 pm
I asked on another post and it seems like Apple likes to use these, too??

https://youtu.be/5AwdkGKmZ0I?t=943 (https://youtu.be/5AwdkGKmZ0I?t=943)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: MLutz on November 12, 2020, 09:21:24 pm
I bought this "new" version from Amazon Germany, and received it today. After using it for the first time, and saving one image and one waveform, this obviously damaged the internal SD image... Now I only get a red "SD ERROR" when switching on the device...
Here are some pictures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/zzHKWVhr7CXszsA66

Does anyone have a proper SD image for this device (FNRISI-1013D-II), that I can use to fix the device? Any help would be much appreciated!

Thank you very much & best regards from Vienna,
Markus
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 13, 2020, 03:34:14 am
I bought this "new" version from Amazon Germany, and received it today. After using it for the first time, and saving one image and one waveform, this obviously damaged the internal SD image... Now I only get a red "SD ERROR" when switching on the device...

That might be coincidence, not cause/effect.

Does anyone have a proper SD image for this device (FNRISI-1013D-II), that I can use to fix the device? Any help would be much appreciated!

Could be a bad SD card, not fixable. Or maybe it just needs pulling out and putting back in again.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tunk on November 13, 2020, 11:46:40 am
I might be wrong, but I seem to remember that this card
is only used to store images. If so, try to reformat it or try
with another card.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: LeisureSuitLarry on December 13, 2020, 04:47:21 pm
Would you mind dumping the winbond SPI flash and posting it here?
attached...

You'll need a CH341A (preferred)...
This is totally shit programmer...
I bought EZP2019+... Each reading get different result...
After that order SP16-B (www.sofi-tech.com (http://www.sofi-tech.com)) this one read stable.

Hi UniSoft,

I'd like to say thank you, since you made my day.

I got a new version of 1013D from Aliexpress (BNC inputs mechanically better protected and also power button is now more hidden), but the seller shipped a chinese version although an english version was advertised. So the device was pretty useless for me. On top of that, the seller wasn't really willing to fix his fault, so let's see what Aliexpress is finally suggesting.

In the mean time I spend some hours of investigating the hardware and tried reading out my W25Q16 with the chinese language user interface with a cheap CH431A programmer (and yes, it works perfectly, if you do it right!). Since it went well, I continued with flashing back your file, hoping that nothing else had been changed from the old to the new hardware version. At the end, I've now got a new version of 1013D with english user interface up and running. The only difference between the english and the chinese version is, that there is a welcome screen included with the chinese version, which pops up quite early after pushing the power button, whereas the english version remains dark for quite some time, which confused me the first time when powering up the device, but since I know it takes a bit longer to display anything, its ok.

I noticed some differences with respect to the new PCB: The solder pin for the RESET line of the F1C100s has been removed. The line needs to be pulled low now at the pull-up resistor. You can either solder a thin wire to the resistor or, as I did, use a pogo pin. Make sure you ground the side of the pull-up resistor, which faces the F1C100s.

The procedure to correctly readout the W25Q16 with a CH431A programmer is as follows:
  Pull down the RESET line of F1C100s
  Connect a suitable SOIC-8 test clip to the EEPROM and connect it with the programmer
  Power on the scope
  Read / Erase / Program the EEPROM

I added the chinese version to the attached ZIP file.

Best regards and Merry Christmas!




Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: theoldwizard1 on December 29, 2020, 06:10:17 pm
Version I of this 'scope appears to use BNC connectors.

Version II appears to use some kind of recessed connector, possibly MCX jack (female).

Can anyone confirm ?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: theoldwizard1 on December 29, 2020, 06:50:03 pm
Version I of this 'scope appears to use BNC connectors.

Version II appears to use some kind of recessed connector, possibly MCX jack (female).

Can anyone confirm ?

Well, I finally found the "money shot" of the new version.  It appears that it still uses BNCs, but the connectors and the power switch are now recessed into the top of the device

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Kean on December 29, 2020, 07:00:18 pm
Version I of this 'scope appears to use BNC connectors.

Version II appears to use some kind of recessed connector, possibly MCX jack (female).

Can anyone confirm ?

Well, I finally found the "money shot" of the new version.  It appears that it still uses BNCs, but the connectors and the power switch are now recessed into the top of the device



Official product page was updated in the last 2 weeks: http://www.fnirsi.cn/productinfo/556152.html (http://www.fnirsi.cn/productinfo/556152.html)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on December 29, 2020, 07:03:35 pm
I have several "10X" probes, impedance adapters and other accessories that are extremely difficult for my old arthritic fingers to insert and remove with recessed BNC connectors; and some that just plain don't fit. It's a deal breaker for me--not a "feature"...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on December 29, 2020, 07:36:37 pm
Version I of this 'scope appears to use BNC connectors.

Version II appears to use some kind of recessed connector, possibly MCX jack (female).

Can anyone confirm ?

Well, I finally found the "money shot" of the new version.  It appears that it still uses BNCs, but the connectors and the power switch are now recessed into the top of the device



Official product page was updated in the last 2 weeks: http://www.fnirsi.cn/productinfo/556152.html (http://www.fnirsi.cn/productinfo/556152.html)

Same description and specs as provided in the manual received with the "Yeapook" branded version I got in July (http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/FNIRSI-1013D English manual.pdf) (46.3 KB):

(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/PiercingClips-00.JPG)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Trader on December 29, 2020, 08:21:13 pm
ADS1013D tablet oscilloscope Review

https://chinese-electronics-products-tested.blogspot.com/p/ads1013d-tablet-oscilloscope-tested.html
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 29, 2020, 08:27:58 pm
The last sentences of the opinion I could underline it. 8)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on December 29, 2020, 09:44:08 pm
ADS1013D tablet oscilloscope Review

https://chinese-electronics-products-tested.blogspot.com/p/ads1013d-tablet-oscilloscope-tested.html (https://chinese-electronics-products-tested.blogspot.com/p/ads1013d-tablet-oscilloscope-tested.html)

A resonably factual and accurate review. Using the "rule of thumb" BW = .35 / rise time (s) promoted by Fluke, Tek and others and applying the reviewer's observed 21.2 ns rise time:

BW = 0.35 / 21.2e-9 = 16.5 MHz

Pretty much in keeping with the reports I and others here have posted.

I agree that within it's limitations it is a useful tool. I use it frequently on automobiles, motorcycles, other contemporary engine control systems--even used it to troubleshoot the CAN bus on my daughter's Samsung washing machine (a glaring example of the absurd complexity incorporated into modern consumer products).

My wife and I pondered how it has been that we managed to live 70+ years without being able to control our washers and dryers remotely?

When I questioned FNIRSI about the grossly mis-stated specs I received this response:

(http://www.paladinmicro.com/TestEquipment/Yeapook/FNIRSIResponse-00.jpg)

Bottom-line: If you want a 100 MHZ scope you should by one from a maker that does not lie...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 16, 2021, 06:30:58 pm
Hi, I,ve just bougt 1013d from Chinese. I tried to test it. And suprise!!! 2nd chanel menu do not resonse. I cant change it on or off, cant change sensivity, change anything. Touch control of this chanel does not work. Everything except this is ok. Touch control of the osilloscope except the 2nd chanel menu works. Has anyone any idea what is going on?. I start thinking about reprograming it with the W25Q16 file. But maybe there is other solution?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on January 16, 2021, 06:53:48 pm
It sounds more like a hardware problem to me--open it up and make sure the ribbon cable from the display to the mainboard is clean, plugged in squarely, etc. Unfortunately it is we, the end users, that provide final QC on most of this inexpensive Chinese scheisse (I.e. "Cheap Chinese crap")...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 16, 2021, 08:26:41 pm
Yep. Open it up and re-seat the wires.

If that fails, send it back.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 17, 2021, 11:55:39 am
Well... of course I've open it and check all connections. Interesting is that the touch screen generaly works. Only on 2nd chanal menu does not.  react. I,ve reset F1C100 IC (pin 70 to ground). It resets all but 2nd ch. I've startet the dispute witch Chinese but I dont know the result. Seller gives me 15USD to repair it myself !!! Carazy !!!  |O Maybe it is hardware fault but where to look for it. I have no idea. Is that possible that software is broken? By the way... the osscilloscope is the new wersion and it has W25Q32 memory.
I know that this osscilloscope can be named a toy but I'am using an old analog one and it is my first digital. I did not want to spend much money before I would decide to buy something better  ^-^
Interesting was that when I fist entered the 2nd ch. menu I could not switch off the chanal but I coluld switch on the FFT option. Once it was set on I could change anything. Now everyting is set to on and can not be changed.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pjw1234 on January 17, 2021, 02:01:30 pm
Hello.
Can someone explain this phenomenon?

As shown in the attached image (5.jpg), a glitch occurs on the waveform at 25ns or 10ns / frequency 7 ~ 12Mhz related to the second channel.

Of course, like the (6.jpg) image, it looks fine at other timings or at higher frequencies.

After 1013d operation, wait 5 minutes and select autoset, it looks normal.
However, when the power is turned off and on, the glitch may appear again.

To solve this, I replaced OPAMP (opa356) and ADC (ad9288), but the result did not change.

Oh and I tried downloading the firmware again, but the result is the same.

Does anyone know how to fix it?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 17, 2021, 07:28:52 pm
Hi. About reading the memory. I've noticed that between old a new wersion of this oscilloscope there are some differences. The new one has CS pin of the memory connectet to the slot (also to F1C100 I think). The old one seemed to has this pin connected to Vcc permanently. Maybe because of this there is no connector for F1C100 reset... I think it is necessarily to find out the state of CS.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on January 17, 2021, 07:53:19 pm
Hello.
Can someone explain this phenomenon?

As shown in the attached image (5.jpg), a glitch occurs on the waveform at 25ns or 10ns / frequency 7 ~ 12Mhz related to the second channel.

Of course, like the (6.jpg) image, it looks fine at other timings or at higher frequencies.

After 1013d operation, wait 5 minutes and select autoset, it looks normal.
However, when the power is turned off and on, the glitch may appear again.

To solve this, I replaced OPAMP (opa356) and ADC (ad9288), but the result did not change.

Oh and I tried downloading the firmware again, but the result is the same.

Does anyone know how to fix it?

The glitch in the CH2 waveform looks to me as missing data in that channel's buffer being masked by the sin(x)/x interpolation algorithm
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pjw1234 on January 18, 2021, 01:15:10 am
Thank cliffyk .


I do it as a hobby, so I don't know the in-depth content.

In my 1013d case, the first channel is measured up to 82Mhz, and the second channel is only measured up to 70Mhz.

If so, it is assumed that the first channel is configured to use more resources than the second channel in terms of firmware.

 Eventually I have to wait for the updated new firmware.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 18, 2021, 05:06:42 am
Well... of course I've open it and check all connections. Interesting is that the touch screen generaly works. Only on 2nd chanal menu does not. 

The next thing would be to look for a badly soldered pin on the touch screen IC.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 18, 2021, 05:08:50 am
The glitch in the CH2 waveform looks to me as missing data in that channel's buffer being masked by the sin(x)/x interpolation algorithm

It should be OK at 10MHz. These things have been tested up to about 30Mhz with no problems.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on January 18, 2021, 01:03:52 pm
I just bought one from Aliexpress for 100 euro. Unfortunately there is a problem with the touchscreen. Can't change the zoom of the first channel or select the trigger edge. Also the vertical cursor won't go higher than a certain point. So applied for a refund. For the rest it is nice since it works on a battery and is small, but not as small as a JYETech Wave2 . The performance is not super. The 30MHz I saw and read in the reviews are to high for mine. the -3dB point is at ~18MHz. Used a Tektronix AFG3102 signal generator for the test. At 1KHz I tweaked the sine signal to be 7 divisions tall on the scope. At ~ 18MHz the signal shrunk to only 5 divisions which is -3dB. (0.707 x 7 = ~5). For measuring simple signals it is ok, but if you need a bit more save up for a Rigol or Siglent. I just wanted something for measuring signals coming from STM32 MCU's generated by software that does not take up a lot of workbench space. And that it certainly doesn't.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 18, 2021, 01:58:19 pm
Well... of course I've open it and check all connections. Interesting is that the touch screen generaly works. Only on 2nd chanal menu does not. 

The next thing would be to look for a badly soldered pin on the touch screen IC.

Do You think if there is something wrong witch touch screen, IC toch screen would generaly work but only one function could be fault? I think that even thou the touch is damaged after reseting F1C100 IC the 2nd chanel shold be reseted too. Is it at all possible that W25Q32 memory has a fault?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on January 18, 2021, 03:31:51 pm
The glitch in the CH2 waveform looks to me as missing data in that channel's buffer being masked by the sin(x)/x interpolation algorithm

It should be OK at 10MHz. These things have been tested up to about 30Mhz with no problems.

Not if the buffer memory also fails at 10 MHz--it would be interesting to see this same unit, same inputs in a raw data ("dot") non-interpolated display mode.

Can  the 1013 do this?  Mine is in my workshop in the barn right now and I'm too lazy to go look...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 18, 2021, 04:41:45 pm
Not if the buffer memory also fails at 10 MHz

I don't think the frequency of the buffer memory is linked to the frequency of the input signal in any way.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on January 18, 2021, 06:52:51 pm
Not if the buffer memory also fails at 10 MHz

I don't think the frequency of the buffer memory is linked to the frequency of the input signal in any way.

Nor do I, that's why I found your above comment: "It should be OK at 10MHz. These things have been tested up to about 30Mhz with no problems." to be perplexing?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 18, 2021, 08:47:12 pm
Dears, has anyone dump W25Q32 memory of the new wersion 1013d (Englisch) ? I would like to compare it with mine. I can't still find what is wrong.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 19, 2021, 12:13:34 pm
Nor do I, that's why I found your above comment: "It should be OK at 10MHz. These things have been tested up to about 30Mhz with no problems." to be perplexing?

The pics of the distortion here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/msg3418548/#msg3418548) show distortion at 10MHz but not at 30Mhz.

I can't explain that (but we know this is a sick oscilloscope...)

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: cliffyk on January 20, 2021, 12:02:06 am
Nor do I, that's why I found your above comment: "It should be OK at 10MHz. These things have been tested up to about 30Mhz with no problems." to be perplexing?

The pics of the distortion here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/msg3418548/#msg3418548) show distortion at 10MHz but not at 30Mhz.

I can't explain that (but we know this is a sick oscilloscope...)

I had not fully followed the original posting and missedd the second 30 Mhz screenshot--74 w/ Parkinson's can really suck at times.

I also am at a loss to explain it, however I have a difficult time believing it to be a firmware issue--smells like hardware to me...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 20, 2021, 02:13:23 pm
Hi, I still have problem with 2nd chanel menu. I would like to try to change the firmware of the W25Q32 memory. My content of the memory (W25Q32) differs from the one I've found in this forum (W25Q16). Can someone who has new wersion of 1013d attach a dump of this memory? Please. Here is my W25Q32.bin file.
There is no need to connect pin 70 to GND of 1C100 IC. In the new wersion of 1013d it is possible to connect CS to the programmer and it works.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on January 20, 2021, 04:59:51 pm
I just ordered a CH341 programmer, so when it arrives I can try to get the firmware from mine. Have to open it up anyway to see what the problem with the touchscreen is. Waiting for aliexpress to come with a resolution for my dispute. Going for a full refund. They offered 15 bucks to get it repaired locally, but declined since there is no assurance it can be fixed.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 20, 2021, 05:28:38 pm
I've asked for full refund. Seller want to give me also $15 but I rejected it. Aliexpres in dispute proposes half price without selling back or full refund if I send back oscilloscope but I must pay for sending back. I propably agree half refund hoping to repair it.
Maybe You will find the reason of the malunction of the 2nd chanel menu  ;D . My programmer came yesterday so now I can read and write the memory.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on January 20, 2021, 06:01:12 pm
If they offer half price without sending it back I will also take it. Shipping it back from Europe will cost at least 30 euro so no gain there. Does your unit show other problems aside from the channel 2 menu? With mine the vertical cursors won't go above half way the auto set button. I made a movie showing most of my problems. It is on youtube: https://youtu.be/mUZGER70dGo

I read a post here about a capacitor across I2C clock and data line,  (from the 6th of September 2020) but looking at the picture it is connected to the screen touch connector. What I know of it (which is not to much at the moment) the touch is not I2C but an X and Y setup over the screen and the square wave signals mentioned could be scan signals. It is a kind of analog system if I'm right. Have to look into it as soon as the dispute is resolved and the programmer has arrived.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 20, 2021, 08:18:30 pm
I watched Your movie. It seems that You have several problems with the touch screen. I have only with 2nd chanel menu. I try to test the oscilloscope beter but the line of FFT of the 2nd chanel is always on so part of the screen is busy.  Presently I know nothing about screen transmition protocol and I also have read something abot the capacitor but I am rather sceptical about it. I think the most important point is to consider if it is software or hardware problem.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on January 21, 2021, 08:55:57 am
It certainly is a strange phenomenon, and what I see on mine I suspect it is the hardware. I will try to solve it, but in the case it is software it will be more difficult since that involves reverse engineering of both soft and hardware.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 21, 2021, 09:49:50 am
It certainly is a strange phenomenon, and what I see on mine I suspect it is the hardware. I will try to solve it, but in the case it is software it will be more difficult since that involves reverse engineering of both soft and hardware.

It can't be software*. Other people have the same software as you.

(*) Unless your firmware is corrupted.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 21, 2021, 10:41:45 am
When I'am talking about software I mean that it can be corrupted. It is obvious for me that others have the same software. However mine (W25Q32) differs from W25Q16 posted in this topic (not only because of the length ofcourse). My way of thinking is first to eliminate software corruption to be sure that it is hardware malfunction. But if it is hardware reason I have no idea where to look for (for now).
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on January 21, 2021, 11:28:37 am
I looked into touchscreens a bit and found that there are screens with i2c communication. There are several controller chips that could be used in the screen. Also the type of capacitive touch can differ from screen to screen. So chances are it is in the screen that the problem lies. If so replacing it might be the only solution, but then it is the trick to find the correct match. I saw a screen on aliexpress for around 30 euro, so if they refund half what you paid for it you could try that road. The old screen can than still be used as a display without touch 8)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 21, 2021, 01:09:50 pm
Your problem with the touch screen seems to be a little different than mine. In Your case it does not react in many places. My problem is only in one function. Because of this I would like to know for sure if it is not because of corrupted software. I worry that we both will spend a lot of money for spare parts without certainty that we had found the reason of failure  :-DD.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on January 21, 2021, 01:25:37 pm
That is why I will do extensive research and testing and probing before buying anything for it. For you it is wait until I receive my CH341 programmer and I can retrieve the firmware from mine :=\
My dispute ends late today after which aliexpress has to step in and come up with a resolution. When that is out of the way I will open up the device and start my investigation :palm:
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 21, 2021, 02:13:04 pm
Your problem with the touch screen seems to be a little different than mine. In Your case it does not react in many places. My problem is only in one function. Because of this I would like to know for sure if it is not because of corrupted software.

Seems to me like you have one good device between you.

If you both get a refund you can combine the two broken ones into one good one.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 21, 2021, 05:15:58 pm
That is why I will do extensive research and testing and probing before buying anything for it. For you it is wait until I receive my CH341 programmer and I can retrieve the firmware from mine :=\
My dispute ends late today after which aliexpress has to step in and come up with a resolution. When that is out of the way I will open up the device and start my investigation :palm:

I received my CH431 in two days (costs about 3EUR). Today I received information that my half price refund would be proceded by aliexpress. I hope it will last no long. In a fact I don't need very sophisticated oscilloscope but If I'll fail with repairing 1013d I'll consider to look for something reliable.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 21, 2021, 09:52:49 pm
If I'll fail with repairing 1013d I'll consider to look for something reliable.

A lot of people have bought them with no problems. This is just bad luck.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pjw1234 on January 22, 2021, 03:57:05 am

I learned a few more test results for my 1013d.

1. At frequencies above 30mhz, both channels
 It comes out normally. (Previous article)

2. If the frequency is lowered by about 10mhz, a glitch occurs in the second channel at the bottom. (bottom.jpg)


3. Drag the lower second channel on the screen and raise it to the center to change the shape of the glitch. (middle.jpg)

4. Drag the second channel and move it toward the top first channel to remove the glitch. (top.jpg)

5. Turn off the first channel and use only the second channel to avoid glitches. (single.jpg)

6. If noise is applied to the first channel and a square wave is applied to the second channel, it is affected by the noise, and the waveform with noise is also seen in the second channel. (noise.jpg).
When I connect another oscilloscope to the second channel, there is no noise.

From the above facts, I came to the conclusion that this is not something that can be fixed by replacing one or two parts.

My 1013d seems to be an early pcb type. I know that the most recent release is shieldboxed in the opamp area.

Facts like this make me sad. ~~~ :(
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 22, 2021, 09:24:34 am
From the above facts, I came to the conclusion that this is not something that can be fixed by replacing one or two parts.

My 1013d seems to be an early pcb type. I know that the most recent release is shieldboxed in the opamp area.

Facts like this make me sad. ~~~ :(

It could easily be a bad solder joint on the PCB - an opamp with no GND or something like that. Go over everything with a soldering iron.

(also make sure there's no stray solder blobs or flux residue in the input area)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on January 22, 2021, 09:44:48 am
If I'll fail with repairing 1013d I'll consider to look for something reliable.

I'm thinking the same, but something more reliable is more expensive :( So when I do decide to spend more it also needs to bring more, like 4 channels, but still with a small form factor.

I opened up mine today and found that it uses a GT911 capacitive touch controller. Since the display is glued to the glass panel it is hard to tell if the touch panel is separate from the display and if so if it can be changed easily.

One thing is sure the designer of this part of the device is a moron since putting a capacitor across sda and sck is idiotic. Only creates cross talk between the two lines. Don't think my problem can be solved by removing it though, since communication between the main CPU and the GT911 works. I'm able to control parts of the screen. Depending on the layout of the panel the problem lies either in the TX or the RX lines of the GT911.

For eljot it might be something else, but could be the same. If only a small part of the capacitive sensor is corrupt it could result in just a small square on the screen that does not respond.

Take a look at the GT911 datasheet for how thinks work. It works with an array of small capacitors with TX lines driving and RX lines receiving. When there is a change in capacitance in an area it will detect that and the host can poll the device to see if there is some touch on the screen. So if part of the array is defect it could explain the problem.

Loose capacitive touch panels are obtainable and not that expensive. 8 or 9 euro's. Finding the right one might be tricky since the sellers on aliexpress are not to forth coming with info on their product pages.

I ordered my CH341 from aliexpress so will take a couple of weeks to arrive :-\ So eljot hope you are patient :scared:
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on January 22, 2021, 10:04:40 am
I conceived a test with an Arduino the see if it is the touch panel it self that gives the problem. Need to check the voltage levels in the device first to see if it is running on 3.3V.

Level converters might be needed and one of these is also needed: https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/4000902737228.html?src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=248-630-5778&isdl=y&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&aff_platform=google&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&&albagn=888888&isSmbAutoCall=false&needSmbHouyi=false&albcp=10191220514&albag=107473525128&trgt=743612850714&crea=fr4000902737228&netw=u&device=c&albpg=743612850714&albpd=fr4000902737228&gclid=Cj0KCQiAjKqABhDLARIsABbJrGl-0u0ETB6-mwfoK-29O56dhcee92wX7MQvD6llBxDYLSxhyvAGotoaAgbpEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

It is a 4 pin fpc connector. You can disconnect the cable of the touch panel from the 1013D and connect it to an Arduino via the level converters. Make a sketch with the GT911 lib and start moving over the panel. Check the output on the Arduino to see if you get all the coordinates you expect. This will give conclusive evidence of where the problem lies. Consider it part of the hobby :-DD

I'm going to order the fpc connector and do the test myself. It will take it's time though :=\
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 22, 2021, 11:22:08 am
For eljot it might be something else, but could be the same. If only a small part of the capacitive sensor is corrupt it could result in just a small square on the screen that does not respond.
My way of thinking is like that: If a small part of the screen is corrupted it would not response at all at this certain place. But when the 2nd chanel menu does not exist (is not switched on) on the screen the area of the screen is responding ie. I can move coursors and etc. So it means (deduce) the tuch screen is ok. Might be that I'm wrong???  |O
I'will wait patiently for Your programmer  :) but tempts me do replace my W25Q32 memory file with the old one W25Q16. Interesting what will happen...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 22, 2021, 11:38:03 am
Have a look at this. I have fond it at youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InCihC4Q1u8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InCihC4Q1u8)

 What do You think about it? Someone has uprgaded the firmware and the screen has gone crazy  :palm:
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on January 22, 2021, 01:19:55 pm
You are right about that if it is the touch it should not work for any thing in that region. With my device it is a small band across the whole display, but that being said the buttons run/stop and auto set work without problems and at least the auto set button is partially in the section that does not work.

So the test I wrote about is my best bet for investigating the problem.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pjw1234 on January 22, 2021, 04:02:53 pm

It could easily be a bad solder joint on the PCB - an opamp with no GND or something like that. Go over everything with a soldering iron.

(also make sure there's no stray solder blobs or flux residue in the input area)


Thank you for your answer.

I looked at the pcb a few times as per your comment, but found no cold solder or flux residue.

There is no glitch up to a 50ns time device. It is more difficult to understand because it only occurs at 25ns and 10ns (7MHz~14MHz frequency).

I carefully suspect that the relay is bad.

I really like the size and interface, but the glitch is the problem.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on January 22, 2021, 07:09:36 pm
You are right about that if it is the touch it should not work for any thing in that region. With my device it is a small band across the whole display, but that being said the buttons run/stop and auto set work without problems and at least the auto set button is partially in the section that does not work.

So the test I wrote about is my best bet for investigating the problem.

Well... I've just replaced my original W25Q32 with W25Q16 file. Unfortunately the 2nd chanel menu is still not working good. But... there is a little difference. Once I had switched some options on (ie. DC on or FFT on or sensivity to x1) it could not bo be changed - the same was with W25Q32 file - but now with W25Q16 file, after reseting the F1c100 IC (pin 70 to ground) everything is back to the initial state - otherwise than before. Before I could not be back to initial state. Maybe it is not a big thing but for me very puzzling...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pjw1234 on January 23, 2021, 04:45:38 am


6. If noise is applied to the first channel and a square wave is applied to the second channel, it is affected by the noise, and the waveform with noise is also seen in the second channel. (noise.jpg).
When I connect another oscilloscope to the second channel, there is no noise.


The question of the noise signal having an effect on the second channel has been solved.
The reason is that I wrapped the two probes together.
But still, the glitch question cannot be resolved.  :-\
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pjw1234 on January 24, 2021, 03:47:58 am


6. If noise is applied to the first channel and a square wave is applied to the second channel, it is affected by the noise, and the waveform with noise is also seen in the second channel. (noise.jpg).
When I connect another oscilloscope to the second channel, there is no noise.


The question of the noise signal having an effect on the second channel has been solved.
The reason is that I wrapped the two probes together.
But still, the glitch question cannot be resolved.  :-\

Through several operational tests, I was able to eliminate glitches occurring in a specific time device (a specific frequency band).

Interestingly, I found this method to be removed as a simple operation method, not any hardware replacement or firmware modification.

This method is based on when I try to remove the 25ns glitch,
First, set it to 1us or larger and run autoset. Next, set it to 10ns and run autoset again.
After two or three repetitions, the 25ns glitch disappears and I can see a normal waveform. :phew:

Eventually, the standing waveform is output like the attached file.

Of course, I don't think this is the correct solution.

And it is very frustrating that the waveform does not get caught in one autoset. :-//
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: dmitrkov on February 07, 2021, 09:58:49 am
Here is the dump of ST 25P16VP... (this is FPGA stream data and connected to dedicated FPGA pins)
I don't think that it is useful for anyone, just let it be for history...
I2C I guess for store settings.

The attached archive contains firmware for RD6006 :-//
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: dmitrkov on February 07, 2021, 10:22:35 am
Dears, has anyone dump W25Q32 memory of the new wersion 1013d (Englisch) ? I would like to compare it with mine. I can't still find what is wrong.
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Av-Riptwsak2iskvoKrSKJR8rpKr_g?e=m4eMUw
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on February 07, 2021, 12:23:26 pm
Thanks. After I had "play" with flash memory I was able be to state touch screen damage. One tx chanel of the screen was grouded. I dont know if it is GT911 IC fault or connection tape fault. Now I am waiting for a new touch screen I hope it will fit.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: dmitrkov on February 07, 2021, 01:22:07 pm
Thanks. After I had "play" with flash memory I was able be to state touch screen damage. One tx chanel of the screen was grouded. I dont know if it is GT911 IC fault or connection tape fault. Now I am waiting for a new touch screen I hope it will fit.

Where did you buy the touch screen? I also have a problem - does not work on part of the screen. The flashing did not help
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pjw1234 on February 07, 2021, 01:32:41 pm
Dears, has anyone dump W25Q32 memory of the new wersion 1013d (Englisch) ? I would like to compare it with mine. I can't still find what is wrong.
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Av-Riptwsak2iskvoKrSKJR8rpKr_g?e=m4eMUw

Reply #479 on: January 20, 2021, 02:13:23 pm <----- The firmware (4096kb size) attached
Reply #505 on: Today at 10:22:35 am <------ The firmware (4096kb size) attached 

The result of comparing the two files is the same as the attached file. The results are different.

Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: UniSoft on February 07, 2021, 02:45:36 pm
The attached archive contains firmware for RD6006 :-//
It is a bug on this forum... it is sometimes replace the file content.
Filename is correct, but really downloading another file which was uploaded later in another thread (with different filename). :-//
If still need it is here:
https://mega.nz/file/MGY3FI5b#wURGvOJB9Zb6dqilI2w5TRbJWrP3fHHG5muqNXtb-r4
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on February 08, 2021, 10:05:12 am

[/quote]
Where did you buy the touch screen? I also have a problem - does not work on part of the screen. The flashing did not help
[/quote]
I've ordered it on aliexpress ( https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33042057555.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.6af64c4dZopY9k (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33042057555.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.6af64c4dZopY9k) ). Originally the touch screen is smaler than that I've ordered - looks rather like 6,2 inch screen not 7 inch screen. I dont know why because the LCD is 164*99 mm. I should receive the screen in about a week time, maybe more. I am curious if it will work properly. It is very hard to change the screen. It is glued to front glass. I've removed it with hot air. Ofcourse I,ve destroyed the original touch because it was very fragile. My steps with removing the screen: 1. take off the back cover of the LCD, 2. take off the content with LCD, 3. On the back of the front glass stays a frame, 4. The frame is glued to a touch screen with adhensive tape,  and the front glass is fixed to the housing with adhensive tape too - remoove both. 5. You will now have touch screen glued to the front glass. 6. Remove touch screen from front glass with hot air.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on February 08, 2021, 11:51:20 am
Thanks. After I had "play" with flash memory I was able be to state touch screen damage. One tx chanel of the screen was grouded. I dont know if it is GT911 IC fault or connection tape fault. Now I am waiting for a new touch screen I hope it will fit.

I did not receive my programmer nor the connector for the touch screen experiment yet, so not able to extract the firmware nor test the touch screen.

So eljot how did you found the problem? Where you able to measure on the lines coming from the GT911?

For me it is probably in the RX lines since it is a horizontal section instead of a vertical section on the screen.

Thanks for the instructions on how to get to the touch panel. I already noticed it was glued to the front and did not try to remove it because of that.

About the size of the panel you ordered, on the diagonal it is 7.5inches, so the visible part will be 7inch. Keep us updated if it actually fits and works.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on February 08, 2021, 01:28:51 pm
Well... in sequence. After I've changed the flash memory I noticed that the difference was the new one oscilloscope memory remembers last setings. The old one resets to factory setings. Thanks of that I was able to notice that one of the tx line did not work. Next I decided to find a new touch screen but before I had to identify connections of the screen (six line tape). During this I discoverd accidentally that one of the tx line was gronuded - I mean short circuit. I did not measure the signals.
I will let You know when I connect the new one touch screen.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on February 10, 2021, 10:35:08 am
Eljot, if you managed to get it out without damaging the front panel you are a better mechanic then I am. Tried your steps and got to the step of removal of the front panel, which is also glass, I unfortunately cracked  it. Also was not able to get the touch panel of the remainder. Went up to 280 degrees for the hot air but it still did not move. It ended up also broken. So now I have 25 euro hobby project. (Managed to get a 75% refund instead of the 50%, because I stated, hang on it will cost me at least 25 euros to return to get my money back, so that's not an option. And repair will cost time and money so I lowered to a 75% refund and Aliexpress accepted that)

Need to see if capacitive touch will work behind an acrylic screen, because making my own glass panel is beyond my skills.

So repairing is not as easy due to the way they constructed the device. Double sided sticky tape is a bitch (pardon the lingo) for repairs. To others, be also careful with the display itself. Once out of the metal case it is fragile.

Attached a picture of the broken panel
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on February 10, 2021, 11:21:26 am
Had to resize the images to get them up here. They show the different parts of the scope.

First is with the pcb removed.
Second shows the pcb. :popcorn:
Third shows the battery in the back.
Fourth is the lcd panel without the metal bracket.
Fifth is the metal bracket left in the front part of the housing. I used the small screw drivers to pry the lcd panel from the bracket. Started at the top away from the cable.
And last is the reassembled lcd panel.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on February 10, 2021, 11:54:30 am
About the touch panel I noticed that it does not use all the scan lines of the GT911.

On the side you can see it has only 10 of the 14 receive lines and on the bottom only 16 of the 26 transmit lines. So they do not use the full resolution of the GT911. Not sure if this is common for the 7inch touch panels one can buy on Aliexpress. Very curious to see if the one Eljot bought will work with the scope.

I'm going to try my luck with the 7 inch one from here: https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/33003864443.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.68b84c4dkes3Il
It is 4 euros cheaper since for me it is free shipping and only 6,34 (at the moment)  compared to 8,25 and 1,79 shipping. I know the price and shipping can vary from country to country.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on February 10, 2021, 02:33:20 pm
Pcprogrammer You are right that the touch screen is rather strange. It is smaller respectively to 7 inch LCD and the resolution seems to  be strange. I doubt it will be possible to find something like that on aliexpress. For me the price of the touch screen You've showed is almost the same. I am very curious if it will work properly. I am still waiting for the delivery. I can put on it (if it works) a pice of acrylic to check. I've removed the toch screen with hot air piece by piece but it turns out that I have luck not to destroy the front glass  :scared:.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on February 11, 2021, 07:25:32 am
Hi Eljot, is your scope the new type, with the connectors recessed or the older one where the connectors stick out of the top. Mine is the newer one and the touch panel is 162mm x 96mm and 176mm diagonal in the see through area. This is about 7 inches.

So going on what you wrote, you basically broke the touch panel in bits of of the front glass panel. Then yes you are lucky not to have broken the front panel itself. Both are quite fragile. I cracked mine while trying to remove it from the plastic case. The touch panel it self did not crack at that time, but broke later when I tried to remove a broken bit of the front panel.

I think the best approach is to first remote the front panel from the plastic case using hot air (at about 150 ~ 160 degrees celcius) and a flat piece of metal. Warm up from the inside until a corner of the glass can be pushed up and the metal can be slit in between. Then while applying the hot air carefully move the piece of metal along the glass to get it out.

After that it might even be possible to do the same with the touch panel by using a very thin piece of metal (like what they use to gauge spark plugs) and using much hotter air. (~300 degrees celcius)
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on February 11, 2021, 11:35:44 am
Hi, my scope is the new one with the connectors recessed . To push out the front glass I've used a thin sharp blade. Just for cut the adhensive tape. I cut it all around and then pushed the glass from plastic house. Removing the touch screen with the same blade (piece by piece) I used hot air about 400 deg. After all it was necessary to remove a glue. Also with hot air and sharp blade. In the end I washed the glass with solvent (acetone).
I worry the screen resolution is different.  I,am not an expert on digital technic so I cant forecast what will happen.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on February 11, 2021, 06:07:16 pm
We just have to wait and see what happens. A friend of mine suggested to contact FNISRI directly to see if they can supply the front and touch panel for repairs, so I went through their website for contact. As it is Chines new year at the moment it might take a while.

I tried with an other touch screen system I have here if it works through acrylic. It did through a thin sheet of plastic, but when I tried with thicker plastic it did not. Only had 2mm acrylic and that does not work either. So not to optimistic there.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on February 12, 2021, 09:34:45 am
I wrote to fnirsi a few weeks ago... at the begining I noticed the problem. No answer.
I have a piece of 1mm acrylic. It is from a picture frame. I think it's not a problem for You to find something like this. I will let You know if it works.  I'm still waiting for the delivery of the screen...
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on February 12, 2021, 04:53:23 pm
That's the Chinese for you. Sell you something and when there is trouble they are not there. Even though they more or less state on their site that service is a priority. My order of the touch screen has to be shipped yet, so will take quite some time. The programmer arrived today, so if you still need it I can extract the firmware.

With aliexpress patience is the key :=\ |O
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: tunk on February 12, 2021, 05:02:45 pm
Some experience with Fnirsi "support":
About a year ago a bought a Fnirsi DSO Pro.
It did not come with a manual, so I sent a
mail to them (2020-01-17). I got the reply
exactly one month later (saying contact the
seller). Admittedly, this was during the
Chinese new year celebrations.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on February 13, 2021, 09:02:52 am
Hi, now I do not need the content of the memory. I am sure that the broblem concers the touch screen. Thnk You  ^-^
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: hans1961 on February 16, 2021, 11:24:57 am
Has anyone experience with the 1013D measuring voltages above 400 volts? With a 1: 100 probe head?
Is this possible with this oscilloscope? Does it have a default setting of 1:100?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 16, 2021, 11:55:31 am
Has anyone experience with the 1013D measuring voltages above 400 volts? With a 1: 100 probe head?
Is this possible with this oscilloscope? Does it have a default setting of 1:100?

Electrically? It has to work, it's physics.

Does the 'scope have a "100x" setting? I don't know, but all the setting does is change the scale of the numbers on the screen. There is no electrical difference inside the 'scope when you switch 1x/10x/100x, it's all done inside the probe.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: wolfy007 on February 16, 2021, 12:00:08 pm
Has anyone experience with the 1013D measuring voltages above 400 volts? With a 1: 100 probe head?
Is this possible with this oscilloscope? Does it have a default setting of 1:100?

Yes it does have a x100 scale on the channel settings.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 16, 2021, 01:23:25 pm
The advert (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000861098295.html) says:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1175474;image)

(but it also says "100M bandwidth 1GS sampling rate" and we know that's not true  >:D )
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on February 19, 2021, 02:59:56 pm
Hi, I received the touch screen yesterday. First I've veryfied 6pin tape connection. 1. RST, 2. Vcc, 3. GND, 4. INT, 5. SDA, 6. SCL. It was the same that the original. I,ve found that the screen has its own pull up resistors (SDA, SCL). On the main board there are already pull up resisors. So one of them should be removed. I decided to remove them from the touch screen.
Time to connect everyting together. The scope starts to work. Touch screen works properly !!! :scared:
I've noticed that because of the touch screen is a little bit biger than the original it seems the picture fits the whole LCD. It is a little biger so the front glass frame could be now smaler (2..3 mm?). I'm not sure of this efect because I cant compare it to the original.
The touch screen has its own adhensive tape so I've glued it to LCD. Next I've put double sided adhensive tape on the front glass (enough wide to be possible to glue plastic housing and then screen). I put the glass into plastic housing and then put LCD screen).
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on February 21, 2021, 08:19:35 pm
HELP!!! Disaster has happened !!! As I wrote above I put the new touch screen. Everything started to work properly. I decided to write back my original W25Q32 content of the memory. After I had done this the new touch screen stopped working. It reacted in some random places but generally it was comletly uncalibrated. I have changed a few times the content of the memory (W25Q16 and W25Q32) but with no effect. What happened? |O   
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on February 23, 2021, 11:24:29 am
Hi Eljot, that is very strange. The fact that it worked at first tells us that it did respond the way it should. Also since you replaced the firmware before with the old touchscreen on it and that did not break the system makes it rather difficult to think of what might have gone wrong.

Does the scope work in the sense that if a signal is attached you see a proper response on the screen?

Not sure about the working of a touchscreen but it might need some calibration. Aliexpress just shipped mine so it will take a couple of weeks before I can test things.

Did you test it throuhgout the different stages of the repair? So after taping it to the lcd and then after taping the pair to the front glass panel?
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on February 23, 2021, 01:28:14 pm
Hi, Pcprogrammer  ^-^
I think that during writening the memory something is sending to GT911 IC.  The same I have found on youtube. Someone has written the memory in 1013d and the touch screen stopped work properly.
Conclusion: newer write the memory when the touch screen is connected the main board !!! I think that one thing I can do is to buy another touch screen. The same I've bought before  |O. I think that the TG 911 IC is programmed by the vendor and something happens when ISP is working in the main board. Maybe next conclusion: not every touch screen with GT911 seems to work properly in the scope. The one I've bought did... until I,ve written the memory.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on February 23, 2021, 01:57:12 pm
Hi Eljot,
I don't think that is likely, unless the cpu does strange things while you are programming the flash memory and the GT911 has some sort of eprom storage, or the flash is working on the same i2c bus, which I doubt since it will be SPI.

Looking at the video you mentioned shows that for him the X coordinates of the touch are somehow inverted and not really a random effect that you describe.

A problem with your device might be that the touchscreen is no longer responding well behind the glass panel. What I found on the net is that when a touchscreen is placed behind glass or acrylic it should be glued entirely. Take a look at what they say on this page: https://riverdi.com/capacitive-touch-panel-construction-and-working-principles/
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on February 23, 2021, 04:18:30 pm
Everything was ok after I had installed the new touch screen. Even when I've installed the front glass without a glue. I am angry with me because I could work with the old version program. I dont know if it is even any difference. But of course I had to go back to my native program. What for ? I dont know !!! I'am fool !!! Touch screen still reacts but has totally lost coordinates. It reacts not a random way, rather with shift coodinates.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on February 23, 2021, 04:23:49 pm
Very strange indeed. Can you shoot a video of what it does and upload that to youtube. Might give some insight in what is wrong.

Another idea: disconnected the battery and waite some time to clear residual memory content. After that power it up again and see what happens.
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: eljot on February 23, 2021, 04:29:28 pm
I will try to make a movie but now it is in pieces. I must put together everything  ^-^
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on February 23, 2021, 04:32:14 pm
Ok. I will check later to see if you wrote a new entry :) :=\
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: pcprogrammer on February 24, 2021, 11:48:37 am
Hi Eljot,
you mentioned that you removed the pullup resistors on the touchscreen. So I thought lets check the ones on the main board. These resistors are ~7K5 which is rather high for I2C where on 5V it is normal to use 2K2 and on 3V3 I guess they could be lower. So removing the resistors on the touchscreen was not necessary and might even cause problems considering the weird capacitor across sda and scl on the main board

It is just a thought so take from it what you will :-+
Title: Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
Post by: dmitrkov on March 03, 2021, 08:25:46 am
Hi Eljot, which touchscreen is still better to order in your opinion? 7 or 6.2 inches?  :-//