Author Topic: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope  (Read 29020 times)

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Offline Valentin

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FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« on: April 18, 2020, 03:15:22 pm »
Hello dear people! I was roaming around aliexpress, like one does, looking for cheap equipment and I stumbled across this thing for ~$140 which is really cheap when considering what it's specs state(which I don't really believe after looking at the mini scope's review), looks very new tho and I haven't been able to find any videos or even posts of it anywhere.
So I was wondering I'd come on here and ask you wonderful people if it might be worth buying, or if maybe someone has their hands on this thing. I don't have a scope in my lab yet and I was wondering what I should buy.
I was looking at analog scopes but prices here are absolutely outrageous(150 euros for a used 1 channel 10mhz analog scope, give me a break...), I found some better ones like a 25MHz 2 channel Phillips for 100eu, but for that price, I'd rather use a Chinese USB o-scope with 60Mhz bandwidth, but even then I'd rather use a propper bench scope, so this scope might be something of value.

Here's the listing:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000861098295.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.22127b3doVRRR4&algo_pvid=edb11322-95b9-46ac-9a63-b8edb27f3c5b&algo_expid=edb11322-95b9-46ac-9a63-b8edb27f3c5b-13&btsid=0ab6fb8315872218024854861e5a0e&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2020, 03:39:02 pm »
I can't find the exact FNIRSI-1013D 100MHz tablet oscilloscope, your link doesn't work.
Dave's looked at the yellow FNIRSI-5012H 100MHz bandwidth 500MS/s. :popcorn:

CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Valentin

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Offline Valentin

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2020, 04:17:07 pm »
Heres what the listing says: *chinglish spam warning*
[spoiler]
Key features:
1:Intelligent anti-burn,1X Can withstand up to 400V withstand voltage
2:100MHz analog bandwidth @ 1GSa/s sampling rate(1X = 5MHz,10X = 100MHz)
3:Fully fit 7 inch 800 * 480 resolution color TFT LCD display with bright colors and high contrast
4:Capacitive touch screen, the same as the touch mode of modern mobile ipad, is not a resistive touch screen with ancient nail operation
5:High measurement voltage range, 1X can measure 0 ~ 40 V, 10X can measure 0 ~ 400V,100X can measure 0 ~ 4000V
6:Up to 12 parameters measurement:VPP,VP,Vmax,Vmin,Vavg,Vrms,Frequent,Duty+,Duty-,Time+,Time-,Period
7:Cursor measurement function, it is convenient to manually measure the period and frequency and voltage
8:Complete triggering function (single, normal, automatic)
9:At any time, the waveform display (pause function) is frozen
10:Equipped with high efficiency One-button AUTO
11:One-button waveform storage and screenshot
12:Built-in 1GB storage space, can store up to 1000 screenshots + 1000 sets of waveform data
13:Powerful waveform picture manager supports thumbnail browsing, viewing, detailed viewing, page turning, deletion and waveform zooming in, zooming out, moving, etc.
14:Equipped with a USB interface, which can be connected to a computer to share its screenshots with the computer, which is convenient for secondary analysis
15:Lissajous figures graphic display function can be used to determine the amplitude, frequency, and phase contrast of two groups of signals
16:FFT display function, can analyze the spectral characteristics of the signal
17:Built in 6000mAh rechargeable lithium battery,Fully charged for 4 hours of continuous use at the highest screen brightness
18:Memory compression technology, waveform refresh screen does not flicker
19:Screen brightness adjustment
20:Background grid brightness adjustment
21:Ultra thin, easy to carry
 
Specifications:
1:Analog band width: 100MHz * 2
2:Number of channels:2 channels
3:Maximum real time sampling rate: 1GSa/s
4:Vertical sensitivity: 50 mV/div ~ 500 V/div
5:Horizontal time base range: 50S/div ~ 10nS/div
6:Maximum test voltage: 40 V (1X probe), 400 V (10X probe)
7:Storage depth: 240Kbit
8:Input resistance: 1M
9:ADC precision: 8bits
10:Coupling mode: AC/DC
11:Trigger mode: Single, Normal, Auto
12:Trigger edge: Rising edge/Falling edge
13:External trigger voltage 0 – 40 V
14:Display: 7 inch - 800*480
15:Operating: Capacitive touch screen + gesture
16:Extension ports:USB picture export
17:Power supply: 6000 mAh lithium battery
18:Size: 184mm x 124mm x 50mm
19:Total weight:650g
 
Package includes:
1 x FNIRSI-1013D oscilloscope host
2 x Matching 100MHz probe(1X and 10X)
1 x 5V2A Charger(Include USB data line)
1 x User manual (English)
[/spoiler]

And here are some images, there's a whole bunch more on the listing, wasn't bothered to screenshot them all:
 

Offline fkfaraz

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2020, 02:49:36 pm »
also interested in this tablet o'scope. does any body got hand on this o'scope???
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2020, 03:31:48 pm »
also interested in this tablet o'scope. does any body got hand on this o'scope???

Not seeing before.  Seems a new model.

It would be nice if that  BW is really 100MHz
unlike the others which more likely are 20MHz or so

Price would fit if 100MHz  otherwise just a crap
But a mobile bat operated 100MHz w/TFT touch ?

That is nice
Paul

 
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Offline wolfy007

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2020, 05:44:34 pm »
I saw that, couldnt help myself and ordered one, I will let you know when I get it. I have to know if the XY mode is as good as the one video I saw or if its bullshit, I MUST KNOW....   :-DD

Regards
Nik
 
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Online maginnovision

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2020, 07:10:42 pm »
The main hardware is probably the same garbage as the little one. If you want a tablet oscope don't waste your money and get a micsig.
 

Offline wolfy007

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2020, 07:16:51 pm »
The main hardware is probably the same garbage as the little one. If you want a tablet oscope don't waste your money and get a micsig.

Find out soon enough!  >:D

MicSig is the much better choice if you need a portable scope. I just want to see if its the same old or whether they have actually progressed to something better, there is no pull apart/reviews on it I could find.
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2020, 07:30:25 pm »
I expect a better mcu for handling the display and... Nothing else.

Maybe it'd be a decent platform for your own tablet project.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 07:33:34 pm by maginnovision »
 
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Offline fkfaraz

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2020, 07:04:43 pm »
yeah definitely Micsig is better then this tab o'scope. But micsig is like a bench o'scope specially the sto1104c (with knobs On) looks like a fully featured bench o'scope. while this one could be used in field even if works reasonably around 20Mhz-ish. ::)

@wolfy007 let us know ur opinion when u get it..

Finger crossed :box: :box:
 

Offline cdev

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2020, 07:17:20 pm »
Looks pretty nice for the price.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online Kosmic

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2020, 08:25:08 pm »
Frontend look similar to the FNIRSI-5012H but they added a FPGA.













« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 08:36:28 pm by Kosmic »
 
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Offline afm

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2020, 10:40:49 pm »
Reads 100 Mhz, or not?
 

Offline stefanh

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2020, 12:30:06 am »
Can you confirm the bandwidth?  Price is very appealing for a small portable 2 channel scope.

Looks like a few copycat / rebadged versions are making an appearance.
https://au.banggood.com/DANIU-ADS1013D-2-Channels-100MHz-Band-Width-1GSa-or-s-Sampling-Rate-Oscilloscope-with-7-Inch-Color-TFT-LCD-Touch-Screen-p-1641865.html?cur_warehouse=CN

 

Offline hgjdwx

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2020, 02:05:46 am »
This is the key:
4:Vertical sensitivity: 50 mV/div ~ 500 V/div
 

Offline ResistorRob

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2020, 09:16:37 pm »
Original Poster's link worked for me.

If they had a 4 channel version of this it would be the perfect cheap automotive scope. I don't have the need for anything mobile, but being battery operated would be awesome because then I would be isolated from mains. Even if it operates at half it's claimed bandwidth it would be worth it (to me).
 

Offline cdev

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2020, 11:13:01 pm »
Watch out for ESD even so!

I'd be afraid to use such an obviously all solid state scope to measure spark plug timing, but I suppose there must be some way of doing it safeely. tapping off a logic level signal before it goes to the high voltage?


You know, since your use is so specialized, I bet there is a way to do that for much less money. But of course it wouldn't look as cool as a tablet scope. If they can pull this off and its a decent product they deserve some kind of award. It would be such a great thing for experimenters.

They need a better name. "FNIRSI" how does one pronounce that?


Original Poster's link worked for me.

If they had a 4 channel version of this it would be the perfect cheap automotive scope. I don't have the need for anything mobile, but being battery operated would be awesome because then I would be isolated from mains. Even if it operates at half it's claimed bandwidth it would be worth it (to me).
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline 1847123212

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2020, 12:19:36 am »
allwinner F1C100S for main controller,it looks interesting :)
 

Online nctnico

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2020, 06:03:49 am »
Original Poster's link worked for me.

If they had a 4 channel version of this it would be the perfect cheap automotive scope. I don't have the need for anything mobile, but being battery operated would be awesome because then I would be isolated from mains. Even if it operates at half it's claimed bandwidth it would be worth it (to me).
Don't mistake an oscilloscope like this with an oscilloscope suitable to use with mains! This oscilloscope has no protection against touching live parts at all so it is not suitable to use as a floating oscilloscope. You'll need to use a CAT rated differential probe anyway to probe anything connected to mains.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Rhenium

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2020, 07:18:43 am »
Hi!

Did anyone check if it was capable of 100Mhz? Or where its limit is?
 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2020, 02:12:24 pm »
4:Vertical sensitivity: 50 mV/div ~ 500 V/div

The link now works for me but I still can't figure it's maximum/Div sensitivity. 50mV/Div makes me think they don't use any amplification on the inputs, which would make the high BW a bit easier.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2020, 02:15:34 pm »
Found this video about it ;) Has a nice touch screen interface but not intensity graded or DPO so update rate is probably minimal. But still not a bad bit of kit for the money.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 12:42:57 am by snoopy »
 

Offline wolfy007

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2020, 02:31:32 pm »
Mine hasnt come in yet with all this disrupted mail stuff, so I cant test anything yet, hopefully Kosmic will have further updates soon.
 

Online Kosmic

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2020, 04:05:44 pm »
Mine hasnt come in yet with all this disrupted mail stuff, so I cant test anything yet, hopefully Kosmic will have further updates soon.

Sorry for the confusion, I didn't order one. Found those disassembly pictures on some Russian website.
 

Online Kosmic

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2020, 04:13:43 pm »
Hi!

Did anyone check if it was capable of 100Mhz? Or where its limit is?

Considering that the FNIRSI-5012H is not 500MS/s sampling rate and 100Mhz bandwidth. I would be really surprise if this one is 1GSa/s and 100Mhz. The frontend will probably have the same variable impedance (depending on the range) problem but the FPGA will certainly help with sampling rate.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 09:16:03 pm by Kosmic »
 

Offline gfmucci

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2020, 05:59:17 pm »
I notice that this unit is sold under three names:  Daniu,  Fnirsi, Elikliv.

Daniu is sold at Banggood for $148.  Fnirsi is sold at Ali Express for $138. Elikliv on Amazon for $190.  But new customers at Banggood get a $20 first time discount (I think - I haven't tried it yet  - could be a come on - or maybe only for items $5,000 or more :palm:.)

Does anyone know the difference between these three brands?  Probably no difference, right?  Does someone else make them besides the names on them?

Would this unit be:  1) Overkill  2) About right, or 3) Inadequate for a noob as an electronics teaching/learning tool, working through a Make: Electronics book and kit or planning to explore Arduino in the near future.  I'm already using a couple of DMMs.

I'm thinking that even 1/2 the value of the specs. on this unit would still be decent for my purposes.  The touch screen interface seems to be more intuitive than most.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 01:37:10 pm by gfmucci »
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2020, 05:29:01 am »
Hi all.

I got one of these to test out.  Results so far are OK-ish – i.e. it does work.
  • My unit is way out on vertical accuracy, yielding around 212 mVpp for a 200 mVpp 1 kHz square wave.  Specification is 2%, which seems optimistic, but 6% high is fairly poor.
  • No way to store or restore setups, and fairly limited measurement options.
  • I am not sure if it is set to a sinc mode or not – no setting for this.
  • Waveform capture is two horizontal screens wide, so you can shift the window that much.  No hold-off or other such niceties.

It comes with quite two decent-looking older HP type probe copies.  I have not checked these as yet.


I have an oscilloscope calibrator here at work, so give some suggestions as to what I should verify and I will try to get it sorted.

This unit also came without a front bezel, from the 'Official FNIRSI' store on AliExpress.  Make of that what you will, but it suggests some form of re-work without proper QC to me...
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2020, 09:46:08 am »
Hi all.

I got one of these to test out.  Results so far are OK-ish – i.e. it does work.

Cool. I don't expect it to be perfect at this price point but is there anything you'd say was a deal breaker? How's the touch screen? Good update rate? How easy it is to set horizontal/vertical scale? Does it crash and need rebooting?

Are you "This is OK...", or "What a pile of garbage!"?

  • My unit is way out on vertical accuracy, yielding around 212 mVpp for a 200 mVpp 1 kHz square wave.  Specification is 2%, which seems optimistic, but 6% high is fairly poor.

That wouldn't worry me at all. "About 200mV" is fine.

(and yeah, 2% is never going to happen with an 8-bit ADC on a device like this)

  • No way to store or restore setups, and fairly limited measurement options.

Sooooo annoying if it doesn't power on to a known state (preferably the same as power-off).

  • I am not sure if it is set to a sinc mode or not – no setting for this.

It will be obvious if it doesn't have it: Zoom in on a rising edge and look for Gibbs phenomenon, ie. a sinc will show ringing before the signal starts to rise.

  • Waveform capture is two horizontal screens wide, so you can shift the window that much.  No hold-off or other such niceties.

Not ideal, but not a deal breaker.

I have an oscilloscope calibrator here at work, so give some suggestions as to what I should verify and I will try to get it sorted.

The main thing at this price point is being able to see wiggly lines on screen properly and not have any deal-breaking fails/annoyances.

I'd go to the extremes of horizontal scale and see how badly it aliases high/low frequencies. See if you can get it to display correct-looking waves with completely wrong frequencies.

How good is the FFT? I have a cheapo device with an awesome FFT (much better than the FFT on low end Rigols/Siglents).
« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 09:49:35 am by Fungus »
 
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Online Kosmic

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2020, 02:41:03 pm »
One of the problem of the FNIRSI-5012H was software triggering + slow sampling rate. Hopefully this is now fixed with the newly added FPGA ? in any case I would make sure to test triggering on slow or non repetitive waveforms.
 
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Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2020, 09:14:18 am »
Cool. I don't expect it to be perfect at this price point but is there anything you'd say was a deal breaker?

Nothing like that, for the cost.  It is 'feature poor', compared to a 'real' 'scope, but for the price...

Quote
How's the touch screen? Good update rate? How easy it is to set horizontal/vertical scale? Does it crash and need rebooting?

Good update rate, seems responsive.  No crashes yet, but the AUTO SET function can be a bit hit or miss.  (But it is fast, so just tap it more times.)

Quote
Are you "This is OK...", or "What a pile of garbage!"?

So far, it seems usable.

The biggest issue may be that 50 mV/div lowest amplitude setting.

Quote
That wouldn't worry me at all. "About 200mV" is fine.

(and yeah, 2% is never going to happen with an 8-bit ADC on a device like this)

Sure.  If you know how inaccurate it is, then it's less of a problem.

Quote
Sooooo annoying if it doesn't power on to a known state (preferably the same as power-off).

Sorry: it does power-up as last set.  No way to store another setup, though.

Quote
It will be obvious if it doesn't have it: Zoom in on a rising edge and look for Gibbs phenomenon, ie. a sinc will show ringing before the signal starts to rise.

Probably not, then.  (See attachments.)

Quote
The main thing at this price point is being able to see wiggly lines on screen properly and not have any deal-breaking fails/annoyances.

I'd go to the extremes of horizontal scale and see how badly it aliases high/low frequencies. See if you can get it to display correct-looking waves with completely wrong frequencies.

How good is the FFT? I have a cheapo device with an awesome FFT (much better than the FFT on low end Rigols/Siglents).

FFT included in attachments.  It seems viable for simple requirements.  Update rate is fast.

Attachments:

Pic 1: 200 mVpp @ 1 kHz (centred)
Pic 2: 200 mVpp @ 100 kHz (centred)
Pic 3: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – horizontal jitter roughly ± 0.1 div
Pic 4: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – trigger shifted low
Pic 5: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – trigger shifted high
Pic 6 & 7: 3 Vpp @ 50 MHz sine (centred) – amplitude ~2.3<->2.5 Vpp
Pic 8: 3 Vpp @ 10 MHz sine (centred) – stable amplitude (becomes significantly unstable around 20 MHz)
Pic 9: 3 Vpp @ 10 Hz sine (centred) – roll mode (automatic - cannot be selected)
Pic 10: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – aliased signal (AUTO SET not used, but shows aliasing is possible)
Pic 11: 200 mVpp @ 1 kHz (centred) – FFT
Pic 12-14: 20 Vpp @ 1 kHz (centred) – FFT, shifting horizontal scale

Notes on pictures and waveforms saved.

This is fast and seems to work well – but does not show the FFT in the thumbnail.  (No idea why not.)  There is no way to organise them; last saved is at top left.


Edit: forgot to add CH impedance characteristics as follows:

CH1: 1.015-1.016 MOhm // 30.0-30.1 pF
CH2: 1.012-1.013 MOhm // 30.5 pF.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 09:16:34 am by boggis the cat »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2020, 11:32:59 am »
FFT included in attachments.  It seems viable for simple requirements.  Update rate is fast.

Definitely something weird in the FFT.

[attachimg=1]

Attachments:

Pic 1: 200 mVpp @ 1 kHz (centred)
Pic 2: 200 mVpp @ 100 kHz (centred)
Pic 3: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – horizontal jitter roughly ± 0.1 div
Pic 4: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – trigger shifted low
Pic 5: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – trigger shifted high
Pic 6 & 7: 3 Vpp @ 50 MHz sine (centred) – amplitude ~2.3<->2.5 Vpp
Pic 8: 3 Vpp @ 10 MHz sine (centred) – stable amplitude (becomes significantly unstable around 20 MHz)
Pic 9: 3 Vpp @ 10 Hz sine (centred) – roll mode (automatic - cannot be selected)
Pic 10: 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz sine (centred) – aliased signal (AUTO SET not used, but shows aliasing is possible)
Pic 11: 200 mVpp @ 1 kHz (centred) – FFT
Pic 12-14: 20 Vpp @ 1 kHz (centred) – FFT, shifting horizontal scale

Thanks for all those.

How do you adjust the horizontal/vertical? Does it use gestures like pinch-zoom, etc.?

 
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Offline gfmucci

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2020, 12:50:36 pm »
What are your thoughts about ease of use of the interface, especially compared to traditional knob and button layouts?  Simpler?  Confusing?  More or fewer steps to accomplish intent?  How useful is the manual for experienced?  For noobs? 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 01:33:11 pm by gfmucci »
 

Online tunk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2020, 01:35:23 pm »
Would it be possible to test it with higher frequency square waves, e.g. 10-100MHz?
 
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Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2020, 02:20:00 pm »
Definitely something weird in the FFT.

Yeah.  I suspect it’s working on the (full?) bitmap.  Not sure how useful it is.  I noticed it looks like it overlaps / interleaves when the signal becomes less ‘noisey’, so I tried to capture that behaviour.

Quote
How do you adjust the horizontal/vertical? Does it use gestures like pinch-zoom, etc.?

Horizontal (which took me a while to figure out) is just tapping left or right side on the display.  Vertical is by the CTRL item; opens a menu with V+ / V- items for each channel.

Functional enough, if a bit clunky.
 
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Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2020, 02:25:42 pm »
What are your thoughts about ease of use of the interface, especially compared to traditional knob and button layouts?  Simpler?  Confusing?

For people used to tapping phone screens, probably just as easy to use.  Cost is likely lower for capacitive touch screens now.  The screen is quite responsive.  Edit: seems to be single point / single touch only — no pinch type behaviour.  (I believe this is cheaper.)

Quote
More or fewer steps to accomplish intent?

It’s very basic.  Think of it as the equivalent of a simple, 3.5 digit multimeter.  The ease of capturing screenshots and waveforms is a positive.  Battery life of four hours seems feasible, too.

Quote
How useful is the manual for experienced?  For noobs?

Utterly hopeless.  But this is a pretty basic instrument, so I’m not sure if a decent manual would add much.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 02:41:55 pm by boggis the cat »
 
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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2020, 02:38:34 pm »
Would it be possible to test it with higher frequency square waves, e.g. 10-100MHz?

The Wavetek calibrator tops out at 100 kHz for amplitude-controlled square waves.  I was more focused on the vertical (in)accuracy, as the timebase seemed reasonably accurate up until the trace became unusable (jitter / trigger issues render the trace ineffective by around 50 MHz).

I can check the higher frequencies with a nominal square wave using the timebase function later today.

It looks like the effective bandwidth is way less than 100 MHz, but I can check using the supplied probes as the manual appears to claim that you need to use the 10x probe setting to achieve the claimed bandwidth.

Jitter starts getting significant past 10 MHz for sine waves, so the triggering is a bit dubious.  You have the option of a set 50% trigger (in a settings menu) or can manually move the trigger point.  It certainly isn’t as stable as a decent ‘scope, but would be fine for gross estimations of signal presence and approximate shape.
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2020, 03:57:24 pm »
the manual appears to claim that you need to use the 10x probe setting to achieve the claimed bandwidth.

That's true on all 'scopes.



Jitter starts getting significant past 10 MHz for sine waves, so the triggering is a bit dubious.

This is much more worrying. 10Mhz is in the "Arduino range".

 
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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2020, 04:29:47 pm »
I just watched the video on this page, I think it gives a pretty good idea of what it does and how it does it.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000861098295.html

 
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Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2020, 12:49:33 am »
the manual appears to claim that you need to use the 10x probe setting to achieve the claimed bandwidth.
That's true on all 'scopes.

Not with an oscilloscope calibrator.  Or at least I have not found this to ever be the case.

The bandwidth is determined using direct connection from an Active Head.  (Usually 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz as reference level, so I did that here, but didn't bother to adjust for an accurate 3 Vpp reference indication because this isn't really a 'performance' instrument, so meh...)

So this instrument seems a bit odd, if it only functions correctly with the probe.

Quote
Jitter starts getting significant past 10 MHz for sine waves, so the triggering is a bit dubious.
This is much more worrying. 10Mhz is in the "Arduino range".

There isn't a lot in the front end.  A gradual deterioration in stability seems to occur, somewhere past 10 MHz for a sine wave.  Because this starts at 50 mV/div, perhaps it would perform better with a higher amplitude than 3 Vpp.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 07:39:48 am by boggis the cat »
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2020, 01:01:11 am »
the manual appears to claim that you need to use the 10x probe setting to achieve the claimed bandwidth.
That's true on all 'scopes.

Not with an oscilloscope calibrator.  Or at least I have not found this to ever be the case.

The bandwidth is determined using direct connection from an Active Head.  (Usually 3 Vpp @ 50 kHz as reference level, so I did that here, but didn't bother to adjust for an accurate 3 Vpp reference indication because this isn't really a 'performance' instrument, so meh...)

So this instrument seems a bit odd, if it only functions correctly with the probe.

Jitter starts getting significant past 10 MHz for sine waves, so the triggering is a bit dubious.
This is much more worrying. 10Mhz is in the "Arduino range".
There isn't a lot in the front end.  A gradual deterioration in stability seems to occur, somewhere past 10 MHz for a sine wave.  Because this starts at 50 mV/div, perhaps it would perform better with a higher amplitude than 3 Vpp.
So its amplitude rolloff is not consistent through the V/div ranges and BNC cable connection produces different results ?  :-//
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 01:02:56 am by tautech »
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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2020, 01:11:13 am »
Sounds like it's still a toy scope, not a serious instrument, and the bandwidth is still a lie. As expected.
 


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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2020, 02:29:22 am »
Yes, that's not a toy. It's a real oscilloscope and while its specs aren't very good at least they're honest and I'm reasonably certain it can do whatever they claim.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2020, 07:49:46 am »
Some more results.

15_c.png through 25_c.png are a 1 Vpp sine wave at settings from 20 ns/div (50 Mhz) through to 10 ns/div (100 MHz) in -1 ns/div steps.  Notice that the 100 Mhz trace has essentially died.  But...

26_c.png and 27_c.png are an 11 ns/div then 10 ns/div trace.  This was done by slowly ramping from 20 ns/div down to 11 ns/div, then 10.9 ns/div down to 10.0 ns/div.  So, a stable 100 MHz trace – if you can slide onto it gently...   :-+

28_c.png and 29_c.png are part of a PAL TV signal check at white and mid-grey levels respectively.  It shows the cursors in use.  There is a "move fast" / "move slow" setting (right of the s/div) that alters the sensitivity of dragging movements.  "move fast" is too fast, while "move slow" is frustratingly slow.   :)
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2020, 07:59:03 am »
So its amplitude rolloff is not consistent through the V/div ranges and BNC cable connection produces different results ?  :-//

It appears to be a weird hybrid / fast logger design to me, repurposed through software to give 'scope-like functionality.

My positive takes are: it is cheap, claimed to handle 400 Vpeak directly (yeah... I could check, but...), responsive UI, makes taking screen / waveform captures easy (but limited options if you want to do anything on the device), and it does yield a sensible(ish) trace up to 50 MHz+.

Negative: not really a handheld 'scope, IMO.

I think it is more of a "basic 'scope" / pretty inaccurate DMM hybrid.  (And I suspect it's really a data logger.)


Should you buy it?

Well, will it do what you would want it for?  Should be useful to quickly probe something before cranking up the real 'scope, as an alternative to the cheaper not-quite 'scopes, or for certain 'niche' uses.  I intend on adding it to my gear for the Airsoft club, where it could be handy to check for battery/motor type faults where a DMM doesn't tell you enough.
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2020, 08:10:31 am »
So its amplitude rolloff is not consistent through the V/div ranges and BNC cable connection produces different results ?  :-//

It appears to be a weird hybrid / fast logger design to me, repurposed through software to give 'scope-like functionality.

My positive takes are: it is cheap, claimed to handle 400 Vpeak directly (yeah... I could check, but...), responsive UI, makes taking screen / waveform captures easy (but limited options if you want to do anything on the device), and it does yield a sensible(ish) trace up to 50 MHz+.

Negative: not really a handheld 'scope, IMO.

I think it is more of a "basic 'scope" / pretty inaccurate DMM hybrid.  (And I suspect it's really a data logger.)


Should you buy it?

Well, will it do what you would want it for?  Should be useful to quickly probe something before cranking up the real 'scope, as an alternative to the cheaper not-quite 'scopes, or for certain 'niche' uses.  I intend on adding it to my gear for the Airsoft club, where it could be handy to check for battery/motor type faults where a DMM doesn't tell you enough.
Cool, thanks for your checks and the GUI looks not too bad but shame it's not a real 100 MHz scope.
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2020, 12:49:04 pm »
Sounds like it's still a toy scope, not a serious instrument, and the bandwidth is still a lie. As expected.

Anybody could have told you that just from the price, no need to read the thread or get snobbish over it.
 
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Offline gfmucci

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2020, 03:24:42 pm »
Sounds like it's still a toy scope, not a serious instrument, and the bandwidth is still a lie. As expected.

Anybody could have told you that just from the price, no need to read the thread or get snobbish over it.

From some of these comments it appears there is little "modulation" of opinion.  If it isn't a scope that is on target with the specs or they haven't mastered the use of yet or it isn't an instrument that they would feel comfortable using, it's a "toy."  I see the word "toy"  (or "shit" from Dave to emphasize his frustration with something) thrown around quite often. 

It would be more helpful to describe what the "scope" would be good or not so good at doing along with the extent to which it misses its stated specs. I might have missed the definition of "toy", which apparently is "Any device which misses its stated spec or behaves in a manner in which the operator does not expect or doesn't meet his own specialized need."

Every measuring/diagnostic device has its best uses and limitations and requires significant user familiarity with its best useage, quirks and anomalies.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 04:04:28 pm by gfmucci »
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2020, 03:56:56 pm »
Every measuring/diagnostic device has its best uses and limitations and requires significant user familiarity with its best useage, quirks and anomalies.

No arguments there.

Compared to what's gone before, this seems like a big step towards being a contender for being a "real" 'scope. The touch screen is a good feature and seems intuitive enough, I'd have no problem buying one if I needed something cheap/portable and I knew I was going to work at frequencies I knew it could handle.

 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2020, 05:48:37 pm »
Sounds like it's still a toy scope, not a serious instrument, and the bandwidth is still a lie. As expected.

Anybody could have told you that just from the price, no need to read the thread or get snobbish over it.

Yea. Multiple people bought one because they thought it'd be the same thing as the last one. I think multiple people thought it was going to be something more because of the form factor change. If you'd read the thread you'd see that I had. It's also not me getting snobbish I'm summarizing for people who don't know better. They see all the screenshots and won't know what to make of it. Especially with the guy performing all the tests being way too happy with a fairly expensive toy scope. Maybe someone will do like ataradov did with the smaller one and write new firmware for it but until then I'd rather people with limited budgets not waste that money.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2020, 06:19:19 pm »
....until then I'd rather people with limited budgets not waste that money.

I can definitely think of a few usage cases for it.

Especially with the guy performing all the tests being way too happy with a fairly expensive toy scope.

And so can he.

I'd rather people with limited budgets not waste that money

It might be very good value for money in the right circumstances.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2020, 06:37:10 pm »
Sounds like it's still a toy scope, not a serious instrument, and the bandwidth is still a lie. As expected.

Anybody could have told you that just from the price, no need to read the thread or get snobbish over it.

Yea. Multiple people bought one because they thought it'd be the same thing as the last one. I think multiple people thought it was going to be something more because of the form factor change. If you'd read the thread you'd see that I had. It's also not me getting snobbish I'm summarizing for people who don't know better. They see all the screenshots and won't know what to make of it. Especially with the guy performing all the tests being way too happy with a fairly expensive toy scope. Maybe someone will do like ataradov did with the smaller one and write new firmware for it but until then I'd rather people with limited budgets not waste that money.
At this price level you can't really go wrong. Worst case you end up with a portable scope you can use on the road. Someone else made the suggestion for the 60% more expensive Hantek but at that point you better save more money and buy a real (entry level) oscilloscope. But I agree this FNIRSI-1013D portable scope's price is at the tipping point where you have to consider spending around $450 on a real entry level oscilloscope or spend $130 and get by for a couple of years.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 07:01:52 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2020, 06:42:54 pm »
It sounds like the "trigger" is as unstable as their first smaller version. If that's the case I'd recommend a meter with plotting(sometimes called oscilloscope) capabilities over this. You get something that can do what this thing can do but you'd also get a meter. Alternatively if you really want something that sort of works I'd recommend finding the smaller cheaper one and using ataradovs firmware.

EDIT: Are you saying the hantek is worth less than this thing you'd seemingly recommend to anybody? My comments were for people who don't know better not for people who know they might be able to use this. It can't even measure reliably though so I can't imagine I'd ever use this even if I had one although I do have multiple handheld battery powered scopes too.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 06:52:50 pm by maginnovision »
 

Offline gfmucci

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2020, 06:53:57 pm »
Yup.  It goes sort of like this...

$40 scope = "toy".  Need a real scope.

$140 Frinsi scope = "toy".  Nope.  Need a "real" scope.

$210 Hantek scope = "toy".  Nope.  Need a "real" scope.

$400 Siglent scope = "nope, not good enough, need a "real" scope.

I look at it this way:  Different scopes for different folks.
 
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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2020, 06:55:53 pm »
I look at it this way:  Different scopes for different folks.

Beginners usually don't have enough knowledge to determine what would be useful but a stable trigger and working measurements are usually a baseline.
 

Offline gfmucci

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2020, 07:00:44 pm »
I look at it this way:  Different scopes for different folks.

Beginners usually don't have enough knowledge to determine what would be useful but a stable trigger and working measurements are usually a baseline.
Not everyone has the same need for the same degree of stability required for their diverse applications.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2020, 07:12:45 pm »
Got it.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2020, 07:42:33 pm »
working measurements are usually a baseline.

I guess my Rigol is broken by design then. It only has about 5% accuracy according to the specification.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2020, 07:44:25 pm »
Meeting specs isn't broken.
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2020, 07:43:25 am »
Especially with the guy performing all the tests being way too happy with a fairly expensive toy scope.

It works within limitations, and certainly doesn't meet the amplitude specifications.  Perhaps that can be adjusted, perhaps not.  I have (predictably) not received a reply from FNIRSI.  It should suffice for my intended usage.

I see a lot of instruments at various price levels.  Some 'professional' appearing, expensive, stuff is not very good.  Some cheap stuff is very good.  Often you are paying for support (or lack thereof) and testing to meet safety specifications.

This thing would probably be fine connected up to a high-energy circuit (e.g. mains supply) – or it might explode in your face.  If you want to do that safely, you're going to have to cough up a lot more money for a 'proper' scopemeter.  If you just want to measure a non-'high potential to explode in your face' circuit quickly, this will work OK.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2020, 08:01:59 am »
A few more captures using the 'X-Y' mode.  Using my super-duper FeelElec FY6800.  (Special usage to please maginnovision.  :D  Now who can tell which 'toy' is at fault?  :-DD)

30_c.png – 10 kHz @ 5 Vpp on each channel, 90° phase offset between channels.  Note the offset along the y-axis - I don't know why it is doing this.
31_c.png – same, but shifted to centre by adding an offset (note the Vavg for CH1 is now +600 mV).
32_c.png and 33_c.png – testing where the limits are.  So it's one full screen height in both x and y - no off-screen capacity.
34_c.png and 35_c.png – changed inputs: CH1 is 30 kHz, CH2 is 24 kHz, with phase offset 75°.

I can't think of any other useful tests.  This is a fairly basic instrument, so I'm not sure what else to do.  If anyone has any ideas let me know.


Also, FYI:

The screen captures are natively '.bmp' format at 800 000 bytes each.  So not super-efficient storage size, but quick to process (about two seconds).  My unit has a 'Sandisk' branded 1 GB micro-SD card in it.  Real?  Probably not.

Waveform captures are 15 000 bytes.  Take slightly longer than a screen capture - maybe 2.5 seconds.  Why 15 000 bytes?  Don't know.  Perhaps that's the full memory for data points?
 
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Online maginnovision

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2020, 08:22:57 am »
Quote
(Special usage to please maginnovision.  :D  Now who can tell which 'toy' is at fault?  :-DD)

I don't have any problems with the FY6800. I think you're confusing me with someone who hates cheap shit, or chinese shit? I don't care what something costs or where it comes from when it does the job it's supposed to do. As far as I can tell there is nothing about this that is a substantial upgrade over their last iteration which was bad enough a forum member wrote his own firmware for it. It had plenty of issues and this one seems to as well. Apparently I can't even get people to agree on a baseline so I recommend everyone go out and buy one. It'll be my new newbie scope recommendation since everyone is saying I'm just a negative nancy.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 08:25:46 am by maginnovision »
 
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Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #63 on: May 27, 2020, 08:36:46 am »
As far as I can tell there is nothing about this that is a substantial upgrade over their last iteration which was bad enough a forum member wrote his own firmware for it. It had plenty of issues and this one seems to as well.

If you can write new firmware for this, then that’s a positive really.

Is it open-source?

Quote
Apparently I can't even get people to agree on a baseline so I recommend everyone go out and buy one. It'll be my new newbie scope recommendation since everyone is saying I'm just a negative nancy.

OK.  You can be the ‘anti-Dave’.  :D
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #64 on: May 27, 2020, 09:13:35 am »
Ataradov did release the source. I don't know if this particular scope it is possible though since there is no information on the hardware. The company who makes this doesn't release the source code as far as I know.

I'm not sure what an anti-dave is but you can call me whatever you like.
 

Offline all_repair

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #65 on: May 27, 2020, 10:47:06 am »
Can take a look at DSO1511, single channel with FPGA inside for processing.  From the demo, software is more refine.  I already have a FNIRSI-5012H, so I can wait and wait.  For me, aAt the moment FNIRSI-5012H with the original software is fulfilling my simple need.  All those buttons are simple to use.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2020, 12:19:19 pm »
I just received  my ADS1013D from Banggood for which I paid 118 € including shipping ( DHL).
This is probably the same as the  FNIRSI

I just unpacked it, tested its rise time with the excellent pulse generator from Leo Bodnar
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/msg1251589/#msg1251589

The performances are not as advertised. They say <3 ns on the back.
I measure more like 12 ns ( see pict attached). So if you think of the bandwidth as 0.35/rt, it gives a bandwidth of  30 Mhz instead of the 100 Mhz as advertised.
But apart from that (which I expected)  I consider it as a very valuable piece of equipment, and a real oscilloscope with  a huge advantage over
my previous oscilloscopes  ( I have many anchor boats and a recent  rigol 1054Z)

- No power chord. Works on internal, rechargeable battery.
- totally isolated
- No Fan : no noise ( this is also the case of my TDS220 which I use often because of that and because  of its light weight).
- fast and responsive  touch screen with a straightforward interface.
- large memory. Easy to retrieve the screen shots by USB connector.

- It is provided  with two x1 x10  full size probes ( I should test them on another scope).

So at  1/3 of the price of the Rigol1054z, I would definitely recommend it to a beginner, and to everyone who wants a battery powered scope. Within  the known limitations of the bandwidth to 25-30 Mhz.

I should also say that the included manual is small but informative and readable.

I am very happy with this purchase. 

A big advantage over many more sophisticated scopes :  from switching ON to signal on the screen :  < 4s.  Hard to beat !

Added : It seems  to freeze when you use the USB connection.
 Yes, definitively, it does not like to be hooked by the USB cable. Many bad behaviours in this case.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 12:49:06 pm by AlcidePiR2 »
 
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Offline AlcidePiR2

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #67 on: May 27, 2020, 01:24:49 pm »
Here are the  pictures of the internal views . They confirm what Kosmic has posted.


Only the board color seems to have changed.

The nice thing is that the internal memory is provided by  a 1 Gb  SD card. I have changed it with a 32 Gb card  and it works like a charm.

As the pictures are only 800 k. This is practically infinite memory. Waves can also be stored and retreived.

The missing part is a file manager, but this is already very nice, as accessing the sd card is easy ( 5 screws ) .
Incidently, there is space for a larger battery, so we can think that a hack could be done  to increase the

On time  of the device.

 
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #68 on: May 27, 2020, 01:51:10 pm »
I'm currently working on a musical synthesizer and I'd buy one right now if that FFT was just a teeny bit better.

From the few videos and screenshots I've seen so far it has a couple of artefacts that worry me.

[attachimg=1]

eg. Why do the height of the peaks on the square wave in that image alternate tall/short? Are the tall ones harmonics and the short ones aliases? I don't know the source of the signal in that video and the horizontal axis has no scale.

Can the measurement cursors be used on the FFT? Is there any control of the FFT horizontal scale or does it simply follow the horizontal timebase? :-//

I'd love to have one to play with for a couple of hours.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 01:53:02 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline AlcidePiR2

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #69 on: May 27, 2020, 03:56:48 pm »
eg. Why do the height of the peaks on the square wave in that image alternate tall/short? Are the tall ones harmonics and the short ones aliases? I don't know the source of the signal in that video and the horizontal axis has no scale.

Can the measurement cursors be used on the FFT? Is there any control of the FFT horizontal scale or does it simply follow the horizontal timebase? :-//

I'd love to have one to play with for a couple of hours.

There is not much action on the scale of the FFT.  The scale changes with the time division setting but nothing is written. Either you assume that  your main frequency is the largest peak, or you provide a sine wave  in the other channel for reference.

I dont see  as much alternate high low peaks as  there is in the picture you found;

Here there is a small alternation of high and low peak, but this is due to the FFT. If the frequency matches exactly one of the main frequency of the FFT, you have a high isolated peak. If you are further from one of the  FFT  harmonics, yoiu have a smaller, but broader peak.  This si seen below, but nothing surprising, and nothing that
reflects a priori a bad behavior of the scope.
[attachimg=2]


[attachimg=3]
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 04:00:17 pm by AlcidePiR2 »
 
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Offline gfmucci

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2020, 04:41:48 pm »
Fugus said "I can definitely think of a few usage cases for it."

Which brings me to something that would be helpful to noobs like me and hopefully others.  I did see the extensive table that lists scopes ranging in price from a few dollars to thousands - must be several hundred listed.

I would like to see a pared down, simplified list in the BELOW $400 scope range that has at least the following genralized categories, with BOLD text being really good to know:

* Make/model
* Year produced
* Price range, e.g $20 to $60; $60 to $150; $150-$250; $250 and above   (The $20 to $60 range may be good for random exploration, without need for accuracy.  The $60 to $150 range may provide reasonable accuracy for limited uses.  The $150 to $250 range, etc. etc.
* Screen size/pixels
* # channels
* Band width, claimed
* Band width, useful and reliable (It appears that scopes generally less than $200 have "useful and reliable bandwidth" about one third of stated spec.)
* Trigger action:  Poor, fair, good, excellent or whatever other categories might be helpful
* User interface/ease of use:  Poor, fair, good, excellent
* Particularly useful features or characteristics; or grossly lacking features that unexpectedly limit functionality in the price range.
* Examples of best uses:
* Examples of what they do not do well or at all:

So, what are the "best uses" for this FNISI-1013D?  I'm mainly into audio and using tools for observing and learning electronic and audio characteristics (e.g. frequency, distortion, etc.).  If I don't need to spend an extra $100 for a "real scope" I'd rather not.

If this needs to be moved to the "noob" section, let me know and I'll have it moved.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 05:03:19 pm by gfmucci »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2020, 05:15:14 pm »
Here there is a small alternation of high and low peak, but this is due to the FFT. If the frequency matches exactly one of the main frequency of the FFT, you have a high isolated peak. If you are further from one of the  FFT  harmonics, yoiu have a smaller, but broader peak.

So the peak is shorter because it's "smeared" across two pixels...

Does the horizontal scale of the FFT change when you change the timebase of the 'scope? It would be good to zoom in on the first few harmonics.

 

Online nctnico

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2020, 05:42:40 pm »
@gfmucci:

I put tools & equipment in three different categories:
1) Useful although limited but cheap enough to throw away.
2) Relatively cheap and supposedly fully featured but flawed
3) Expensive but working as it should.

I avoid the tools & equipment in category 2. They cost a reasonable amount of money but the flaws are like an itch that never goes away. Having to 'make do' and use workarounds takes the fun away from the project.

I put the oscilloscope this thread is about in category 1 but the price is at the high end of the range.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline AlcidePiR2

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2020, 06:13:23 pm »
@nctnico

There is also the category of tools

 4) Cheap, not full featured, but fulfill your needs.

I believe  ADS1013D is in this category. You dont need to throw it away. It has a form factor that is difficult to beat. Up to now, cheap wireless oscillo
have not been suitable for general workshop use.  I dont think its the same for this one, and I really think it opens a new game.
Its like the ANENG AN8008 multimeters. For most uses, you dont need more.

This is really  something to buy for one who is starting in electronics, even if he does not know what is an oscilloscope. When he will get more knowledgeable, he will
buy a better scope, but will keep the use of this one, as most probably his better scope will not be wireless.
 
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Offline AlcidePiR2

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2020, 06:18:11 pm »
So the peak is shorter because it's "smeared" across two pixels...
In some sense, yes. But it is already in the mathematical FFT of the signal, not only in the display.

Quote
Does the horizontal scale of the FFT change when you change the timebase of the 'scope? It would be good to zoom in on the first few harmonics.

You can act on the vertical and horizontal scale, but in a limited way.

Vertically, you can change the scale by acting on the vertical scale of the signal, but the spectrum is crop on the top.
Horizontally, you can change the scale by acting on the time scale, but  from what I have seen, you cannot scroll horizontally the spectrum. You will
have access only to the beginning part ( which is what you asked for).


 

Offline gfmucci

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2020, 07:34:28 pm »
I just received  my ADS1013D from Banggood.

I consider it as a very valuable piece of equipment, and a real oscilloscope with  a huge advantage over
my previous oscilloscopes
[bold added]  ( I have many anchor boats and a recent  rigol 1054Z)

Certainly not on par with your Rigol 1054Z, right? https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/

What will be the circumstances/types of testing with your new ADS1013D that you would not use the Rigol for?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #76 on: May 27, 2020, 07:40:13 pm »
You will have access only to the beginning part ( which is what you asked for).

That's OK for me. In fact it's good that the origin (ie. 0Hz) stays fixed at the left side of the screen.

The other big thing that bothers me is the lack of vertical scale and no visible noise floor. I'd like to have some idea of signal:noise ratio.

Certainly not on par with your Rigol 1054Z, right?
What will be the circumstances/types of testing with your new ADS1013D that you would not use the Rigol for?

a) The FFT on the Rigol is awful. I don't particularly care because I have another gadget for that but FFT is the Rigol's Achilles Heel.
b) I was thinking of using this for recording videos. A 'scope with a  7" screen that lies flat on the bench seems ideal for use with an overhead camera but the Rigol shape/size simply doesn't work, especially with the mains plug sticking out of the back.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 08:05:51 pm by Fungus »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #77 on: May 27, 2020, 08:53:22 pm »
@nctnico

There is also the category of tools

 4) Cheap, not full featured, but fulfill your needs.
That IS category 1.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline AlcidePiR2

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #78 on: May 27, 2020, 09:31:19 pm »
Certainly not on par with your Rigol 1054Z, right? https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/
No, the Rigol is far superior in performance from what I have measured

rising time in Rigol is about 4 ns ( real 100 Mhz) vs  about 12 ns for the ADS1013D.

Quote
What will be the circumstances/types of testing with your new ADS1013D that you would not use the Rigol for?

I have a dozen of scopes.  Most of them are anchor boats that I have repaired. The most powerfull in term of bandwidth is a TDS 460 
with a rising time of  1.3 ns  ( Bandwidth of 350 Mhz).

The ones I use the most often are now the Rigol1054 because of all his features and 4 channels, but also the TDS220 black and white with only two channels, but which
has no fan and thus makes no noise. This is important for me. In fact, now I use more the TDS220 than the Rigol.

The circumstances I would use rather the ADS1013 is any time  I will test something  outside from my bench.

I had to test the signal of an alarm system, on the top of a ladder. This is certainly where the ADS1013 would be welcome.

Same for anything in the car.
 

Offline AlcidePiR2

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #79 on: May 27, 2020, 09:34:04 pm »
@nctnico

There is also the category of tools

 4) Cheap, not full featured, but fulfills your needs.
That IS category 1.

In this case, we agree.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 09:47:15 pm by AlcidePiR2 »
 

Offline gfmucci

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2020, 03:06:47 pm »
Well, after considerable consternating and other assorted deliberations, I went with the Hantek 5072P.  http://www.hantek.com/en/productdetail_97.html

Why?

1. Traditional user interface.  Better to relate to the numerous teaching videos for a noob.  And old people prefer knobs, which is what I am - an old person, (not a knob.)  This noob likes knobs.  Kind of catchy.

2. Changing functions on the touch screen blanks out what is being measured, or so it appears on the videos and photos. Not so with the knobby interface.

3. The Hantek is more likely to achieve its bandwidth spec, and other specs, which may be ~double the touchscreen bunch.

4.  If I croak before my wife does, the traditional knobby layout is likely to be easier to sell - or it will at least be easier to identify what the device is.

5.  I don't anticipate any need for portability.  It stays on the bench.

6.  I reviewed the Hantek's 72 page manual which seems quite helpful. Haven't seen the Frinsi or equiv. manual online.

As an aside, Ali Express sells this for less than Amazon, but their shipping cost is $50+, which makes it $35 >Amazon.

If the touchscreen O-scope is a "semi-accurate, semi-"toy" useful for some things" device, then the Hantek is a "low end, utilitarian, slightly more accurate, useful for a few more things" device.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 03:41:10 pm by gfmucci »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #81 on: May 28, 2020, 04:01:13 pm »
Well, after considerable consternating and other assorted deliberations, I went with the Hantek 5072P.  http://www.hantek.com/en/productdetail_97.html

Sure. It's horses for courses.

My own interest in this "toy" is more because of form factor and portability than its measuring ability.

 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #82 on: May 29, 2020, 08:07:43 am »
My own interest in this "toy" is more because of form factor and portability than its measuring ability.

The FFT function seems very dubious to me.  I am not sure how they're deriving it, but the weird 'foldback' artefacts it produced (shown in my screen-grabs) are spurious.

If that's important to you, then this is probably not suitable.  More testing would be required to figure out what it is doing, and the limitations.

I haven't got a clean enough known signal source to really test the FFT function.  Nothing in the lab is sufficient, and my 'FeelElec' is not the most accurate of instruments.  (It has interesting aliasing issues which appear to be timebase related.  Assuming that my Siglent 'scope isn't the culprit, which I feel safe on.)

Also, no response from FNIRSI concerning this device and my query about adjustment.
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #83 on: May 29, 2020, 01:23:50 pm »
The FFT function seems very dubious to me.  I am not sure how they're deriving it, but the weird 'foldback' artefacts it produced (shown in my screen-grabs) are spurious.

If that's important to you, then this is probably not suitable.  More testing would be required to figure out what it is doing, and the limitations.

Yes, I'm going to pass on this.  I'll wait for the next generation or save up for an Analog Discovery 2 instead.

My ancient DSO Quad has a tiny screen but the FFT is an order of magnitude better (actually quite awesome because of high update rate, labelling of peaks, etc).

FFT is the green overlay, it's showing the cyan trace which has four harmonics in it:

[attachimg=1]




« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 11:12:00 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline AlcidePiR2

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #84 on: May 29, 2020, 05:41:28 pm »
Yes, this looks better that the FFT of the ADS1013D.

There is no labels on the ADS1013D, and the scales are difficult to adjust. It can only be used marginally.
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #85 on: May 31, 2020, 05:16:15 am »
There is no labels on the ADS1013D, and the scales are difficult to adjust. It can only be used marginally.

It's a 'basic' instrument.

The built-in 'Measurements' appear to be correct, and the cursors work, but it's all quite limited.

A modern 'real' oscilloscope (Siglent and Rigol are probably fine low-cost options) is a better bet if you want a more flexible instrument.  Siglent make hand-held 'scopes, too, if that is a requirement.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #86 on: May 31, 2020, 05:28:55 am »
It's a 'basic' instrument.

Yes, we get that. I was more interested in the form factor + price.

A modern 'real' oscilloscope (Siglent and Rigol are probably fine low-cost options) is a better bet if you want a more flexible instrument.

The FFT on both of those is horrible. Within its bandwidth limits I dare say my "toy" DSO Quad is better.

Siglent make hand-held 'scopes, too, if that is a requirement.

If I was after a "real" scope in this form factor I'd be looking at a Micsig.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #87 on: May 31, 2020, 05:36:29 am »
A modern 'real' oscilloscope (Siglent and Rigol are probably fine low-cost options) is a better bet if you want a more flexible instrument.

The FFT on both of those is horrible.
Yes we all know the low cost Rigol FFT is poor but an equivalent Siglent X-E ?
Nope, that's how a cheap DSO FFT should be, a proper implementation of a cheap spectrum analyser.
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #88 on: May 31, 2020, 05:56:46 am »
Yes we all know the low cost Rigol FFT is poor but an equivalent Siglent X-E ?

I'm just looking at the horrible FFT, awful laggy controls and slow update rate shown in this video (skip to 4:00):



It doesn't look like much of a step up from the Rigol to me.  :-//



eg. At 4:30 he's showing a single sine wave, shouldn't the 'scope be showing a horizontal noise floor with a single vertical spike?

[attachimg=1]

My DSO Quad can manage it:

[attachimg=2]

It updates the FFT at 30 fps, too, not the 1 fps of the Siglent.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 08:07:01 am by Fungus »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #89 on: May 31, 2020, 08:06:02 am »
Yes we all know the low cost Rigol FFT is poor but an equivalent Siglent X-E ?

I'm just looking at the horrible FFT, awful laggy controls and slow update rate shown in this video:



(skip to 4:00)

It doesn't look like much of a step up from the Rigol to me.  :-//


eg. At 4:30 he's showing a single sine wave, shouldn't the 'scope be showing a horizontal noise floor with a single vertical spike?

[attachimg=1]

My DSO Quad can manage it. It updates the FFT overlay at 30 fps, too, not the 1 fps of the Siglent.

[attachimg=2]
::)
You know better than to judge an instrument from a 2 year old video, really !  :=\
One glance at the UI and I know it's operating with very old FW and after watching the whole video it's obvious how much better the results would be with the features that have since been added.

So you bought a DSO Quad to supplement the FFT that your Rigol can't do ?  :-DD
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #90 on: May 31, 2020, 08:14:15 am »
One glance at the UI and I know it's operating with very old FW and after watching the whole video it's obvious how much better the results would be with the features that have since been added.

Video? Screenshots? I'm having trouble finding any. Let's see the new frame rates, etc.

Let's see if they've managed to get it up to the level of a DSO Quad.

So you bought a DSO Quad to supplement the FFT that your Rigol can't do ?  :-DD

No, I had the DSO Quad for a couple of years before I got my Rigol.

 

Offline tautech

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #91 on: May 31, 2020, 08:28:18 am »
One glance at the UI and I know it's operating with very old FW and after watching the whole video it's obvious how much better the results would be with the features that have since been added.

Video? Screenshots? I'm having trouble finding any. Let's see the new frame rates, etc.

Let's see if they've managed to get it up to the level of a DSO Quad.
From 6.45. Also with old firmware but from a guy that knows how to drive Siglent X-E FFT.  :phew:
That this is the 4ch X-E makes no difference, SDS1202X-E FFT is exactly the same.

https://youtu.be/Cwbwq-AKbPc?t=405
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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #92 on: May 31, 2020, 12:06:42 pm »
From 6.45. Also with old firmware but from a guy that knows how to drive Siglent X-E FFT.  :phew:

OK, so with the latest firmware a good "driver" can achieve a similar update rate to a DSO Quad by reducing the memory depth to 2.8kpts and the FFT to 2048 points. Got it.

[attachimg=1]

Even so, he couldn't sort out the sloping noise floor or the weird cone shaped "peaks".

Maybe you should start slipping DSO Quads into the boxes of all your Siglents as a perk for your customers.  :-DD
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 01:40:03 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2020, 06:37:17 am »
OK, so with the latest firmware a good "driver" can achieve a similar update rate to a DSO Quad by reducing the memory depth to 2.8kpts and the FFT to 2048 points. Got it.

[attachimg=1]

Even so, he couldn't sort out the sloping noise floor or the weird cone shaped "peaks".

This may be an accurate evaluation of the applied signal.  Unless it is a 'perfect' sinewave being presented at the 'scope front end (or close enough to pass, in this case), you should expect some aberrations.  I can check my 1202X-E with a good quality signal from the calibrator here, if you really want an FFT from a 'known' signal.

I have to take some gear in from home tomorrow, anyway.
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2020, 07:59:19 am »
Even so, he couldn't sort out the sloping noise floor or the weird cone shaped "peaks".

This may be an accurate evaluation of the applied signal.

Maybe, but it's not the only place I've seen it, eg. Here's a comparison with a Picoscope:

Picoscope:


Siglent shows the same signal with cone shaped peaks and sloping noise floor:


Images taken from this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/

« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 08:05:10 am by Fungus »
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2020, 08:41:14 am »
Going by those this one must be broken  :P

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Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2020, 09:03:57 am »
Images taken from this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/

Did you not notice that there is another example two posts down, with a correct FFT display?

Poor configuration will produce aliasing, so that may be why the post you linked to yields that.

I will try a comparison of my 1013D and 1202X-E tomorrow, if I get the time.  It would be interesting to try to make sense out of what the 1013D is doing.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2020, 09:36:53 am »
 :popcorn:
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2020, 09:59:58 am »
Going by those this one must be broken  :P

Or just zoomed out a lot and half the first peak cropped off to hide it...
[attachimg=1]


PS: What's the frame rate with that many points?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 10:02:00 am by Fungus »
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2020, 10:10:25 am »
I've just been looking at the classic FFT comparison video:



Most of the others seem to do something similar to the Siglent with the peaks in that video, although that could be from the source signal. Dave put a distortion in it.

None of the others seem to have a slope in the noise floor though.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #100 on: June 02, 2020, 12:26:29 pm »
Even so, he couldn't sort out the sloping noise floor or the weird cone shaped "peaks".

This may be an accurate evaluation of the applied signal.

Maybe, but it's not the only place I've seen it, eg. Here's a comparison with a Picoscope:

Picoscope:


Siglent shows the same signal with cone shaped peaks and sloping noise floor:


Images taken from this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/

FFT Resolution Bandwidth is too low, try increasing capture time.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #101 on: June 02, 2020, 12:41:39 pm »
FFT Resolution Bandwidth is too low, try increasing capture time.
I agree. I'd assume this is a setting somewhere that limits the FFT length; the length of the capture is more than enough.
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Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #102 on: June 03, 2020, 05:31:45 am »
Or just zoomed out a lot and half the first peak cropped off to hide it...

Well then, from your post above, half the PicoScope first peak must be 'cropped off' to hide something...

 ???
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #103 on: June 03, 2020, 05:34:21 am »
Or just zoomed out a lot and half the first peak cropped off to hide it...

Well then, from your post above, half the PicoScope first peak must be 'cropped off' to hide something...

 ???

The Picoscope goes down to zero so there's nothing to hide (unless there's some negative frequencies in there...)
 

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« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 09:57:02 pm by tunk »
 

Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #105 on: June 13, 2020, 08:07:21 pm »
I am amazed by this product. I don't have one, and I will probably not buy one right now. But look at current alternatives (Mini DS203 and DS213). From what I can see in the videos, the touch screen interface is very intuitive and very fast. No comparison to pressing buttons or turning knobs to navigate through menus. In fact, I wonder whether one could not simply build a professional scope (like a Siglent 1202X) with a larger screen and an extended version of such a user interface. Fine tuning could be implemented with sliders that are displayed on demand. Coarse adjustments would continue to be simple touch gestures. This 1013d seems to lack two finger gestures. Using those could yield additional improvement of the touch interface.

The reason I'm not buying the 1013d is that I am thinking about buying a Siglent 1202X-E. It's available though German shops and I will have a more mature product, higher bandwidth, etc.
Another drawback of the 1013d is the battery and the power via USB. Given the rating (5V 2A), it will be hard to find a proper charger. Also, I do not trust the USB charger than comes with it. Better would have been USB PD via USB-C. Then I could have used a notebook USB-C charger or a USB-C PD power bank. 4 hours of usage on battery after charging it for 4 hours is great. Also, having it connected to the power 24/7 while it's standing on my desk seems like a bad idea. The battery will probably suffer, and, as I said, i don't trust the charger. Does it have a mini or micro USB plug?

If you are in Europe and you want to order it anyway: you will find units with shipping from Italy or Spain if you search for "nano1013d" on Aliexpress.



« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 08:22:41 pm by skoehler »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #106 on: June 13, 2020, 09:14:03 pm »
The reason I'm not buying the 1013d is that I am thinking about buying a Siglent 1202X-E. It's available though German shops and I will have a more mature product, higher bandwidth, etc.

Have you seen the Micsig tablets?

Same form factor and touchscreen as a 1013D, more powerful than a Siglent.

https://micsig.aliexpress.com/store/group/Tablet-Oscilloscope/1293611_509734614.html

OK, a bit more expensive than the Siglent but if that's what you're after then it's worth saving up a little bit more.
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2020, 05:14:44 am »
In fact, I wonder whether one could not simply build a professional scope (like a Siglent 1202X) with a larger screen and an extended version of such a user interface. Fine tuning could be implemented with sliders that are displayed on demand. Coarse adjustments would continue to be simple touch gestures. This 1013d seems to lack two finger gestures. Using those could yield additional improvement of the touch interface.

It only has single-point response.  While you could add a lot more in software to something like this, the front end is pretty basic.  50 mV/div minimum to 5 V/div maximum ranging, for example (and my unit certainly doesn't meet the claimed specification).

Quote
The reason I'm not buying the 1013d is that I am thinking about buying a Siglent 1202X-E. It's available though German shops and I will have a more mature product, higher bandwidth, etc.

I have one, and it seems to be a solid, reliable, 'scope (now).  The 1104X-E is worth looking at, too – four-channel, and a bit more competent (nominal bandwidth is lower, but it's likely 'hackable' to 200 MHz easily enough).

Quote
Another drawback of the 1013d is the battery and the power via USB.

It's more of an advantage, really.

Quote
Given the rating (5V 2A), it will be hard to find a proper charger. Also, I do not trust the USB charger than comes with it. Better would have been USB PD via USB-C. Then I could have used a notebook USB-C charger or a USB-C PD power bank. 4 hours of usage on battery after charging it for 4 hours is great. Also, having it connected to the power 24/7 while it's standing on my desk seems like a bad idea. The battery will probably suffer, and, as I said, i don't trust the charger. Does it have a mini or micro USB plug?

Any USB charger will work.  It doesn't have to be 2 A rated.  Even leaving it plugged into a PC USB port charges it.

It uses micro USB, so 2 A is optimistic anyway.
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2020, 05:18:44 am »
Same form factor and touchscreen as a 1013D, more powerful than a Siglent.

I'm not sure about that.  What do they offer over the cheap Siglent bench 'scopes?

I would assume that they're better than Siglent's hand-held 'scope offerings – but I'm not really sure about that, either.

Quote
OK, a bit more expensive than the Siglent but if that's what you're after then it's worth saving up a little bit more.

A good bit more expensive.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2020, 07:02:19 am »
Quote
OK, a bit more expensive than the Siglent but if that's what you're after then it's worth saving up a little bit more.

A good bit more expensive.

No more than the difference between a Siglent and a Rigol.

Siglent owners have no problem telling Rigol owners that the difference is worth every penny, so...  :-//
 
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Offline rlohmann

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #110 on: June 15, 2020, 10:48:41 am »
Hi @AlcidePiR2

I'm still waiting for my unit ... so I'm actually reading and searching for information.

Looking at the pictures, it appears to me that the shielding of the input BNC connectors are actually not grounded.  ???
Could you measure the resistance between the two BNC shieldings?

Btw, looks like your PCB has a slightly different routing.
The FNIRSI units seem to have a more obvious runtime alignment (meander traces) between ADC and FPGA. 

I found in a russian forum the assumption AD9288 are used as ADCs ...  so, the x1013 would have max 200Ms/sec sample rate (in best case).  :o
Maybe probing the ADC-clock (with a second scope) might help to answer that question...

Unfortunately both PCBs does not have the potential 9th and 10th bit traces routed.
Would have been a nice option to replace the 8bit ADCs (AD9288) with a 10bit ADC (AD9218) to somewhat compensate the min 50mV/dev. ;)
Especially while using x10 coupling for higher bandwidth which leads to min 500mV/dev I guess.

One comment/request on the 10MHz measurement you posted to check the rise time. Looks like you did the measurements with x1 coupling, correct?
Could you redo the measurement with x10 coupling? ... guess that will increase the bandwidth and could reduce the rise time.
... never mind, I've just checked the link to puls generator you used ... :D
   
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 10:59:14 am by rlohmann »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #111 on: June 15, 2020, 05:25:03 pm »
Could you measure the resistance between the two BNC shieldings?

I bet it's ~= 0 Ohms...
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #112 on: June 15, 2020, 07:00:56 pm »
Looking at the pictures, it appears to me that the shielding of the input BNC connectors are actually not grounded.  ???

They must be connected to something, or the 'scope won't work.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 07:02:51 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline rlohmann

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #113 on: June 15, 2020, 07:28:10 pm »
You are probably right, looking at the PCB backside.  :)

   https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=985516;image

I got confused with the isolation on the top side and the trace going away from there.

   https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=997413;image

Guess the trace is going to the differential inputs pins of the ADCs and tied together to GND for noise reduction.
 

 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 07:32:26 pm by rlohmann »
 

Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #114 on: June 16, 2020, 03:12:01 am »
Could somebody follow which versions have the blue PCB and which versions have the green PCB?
Clearly, the blue ones seem to have issues which were resolved in the green revision with proper length matching.
 

Offline AlcidePiR2

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #115 on: June 16, 2020, 11:39:41 am »
Could you measure the resistance between the two BNC shieldings?

I bet it's ~= 0 Ohms...

Yes it is.
 

Offline wolfy007

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #116 on: June 16, 2020, 01:38:27 pm »
Could you measure the resistance between the two BNC shieldings?

I bet it's ~= 0 Ohms...

Yes it is.

Yup zero Ohms
 

Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #117 on: June 28, 2020, 11:02:24 pm »
So, have you received your 1013d yet? And what's your verdict?
 

Offline wolfy007

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #118 on: June 30, 2020, 10:47:07 am »
So, have you received your 1013d yet? And what's your verdict?

Quick overview, same as what others have seen;

Three of us at work bought them, none of them can be regarded 100MHz scopes. Even using HP 500MHz @10:1 probes (just to make sure its not an issues with the supplied probes), the highest frequency you will see is about 85MHz with a sine input before its starts showing nonsense (signal starts looking like its modulated/unstable), and its attenuated quite a bit.

At my most optimistic I would say its a 40MHz scope. I looked inside, it has a blue circuit board.

But I do like the form factor a lot, it uses far less volume than even the Micsig and actually fits in my small electronics tool box with tools, multimeter, and a hand held signal gen yet has a nice screen size. So if you just need a low cost simple visual signal probe, its fine. If you need a more serious portable tool, with more features (a 4ch version), superior software, stated bandwidth and better triggering, save up for the Micsig and a separate carry bag for it.

What I found interesting while testing was XY mode. If you just put up some simple lissajous figures (circle, spiral etc) its looks fantastic without trying. But try one of those boards that puts up a clock or one I made to put up a spinning graphic (aka w2aew > ), it cant render it correctly, almost as if its doing something funky in software.

When I get time I will post some photos.

But I collect all sorts of scopes so I couldnt help buying one, I accept my TEA....  ;D
 
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Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #119 on: June 30, 2020, 12:18:07 pm »
Can you clarify something for me? What does 50mV/div mean? As far as I know "division" refer to one line in the grid. But that doesn't tell me anything about the resolution within one division.

What I would like to know is the vertical resolution per ADC increment with a 10X probe (by how much does the voltage increase if the ADC output increases by 1). Or, equivalently, by how much does the voltage increment over the whole 8bit ADC range (0 to 255). Can anybody tell?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #120 on: June 30, 2020, 02:00:04 pm »
Quick overview, same as what others have seen;

Three of us at work bought them, none of them can be regarded 100MHz scopes. Even using HP 500MHz @10:1 probes (just to make sure its not an issues with the supplied probes), the highest frequency you will see is about 85MHz with a sine input before its starts showing nonsense (signal starts looking like its modulated/unstable), and its attenuated quite a bit.

At my most optimistic I would say its a 40MHz scope.

Edit: Post remove due to Aliexpress confusion over the numbers. Many sellers say it's 100MS/sec but it's not.

One question: How shiny are the screens on these? The screens on Micsigs look awfully shiny in videos. I hate that.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 03:33:34 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline wolfy007

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #121 on: June 30, 2020, 02:46:53 pm »
Quick overview, same as what others have seen;

Three of us at work bought them, none of them can be regarded 100MHz scopes. Even using HP 500MHz @10:1 probes (just to make sure its not an issues with the supplied probes), the highest frequency you will see is about 85MHz with a sine input before its starts showing nonsense (signal starts looking like its modulated/unstable), and its attenuated quite a bit.

At my most optimistic I would say its a 40MHz scope.

That makes perfect sense for a 100Mhz sample rate. Nyquist will be at 50Mhz and that's your maximum frquency, but Nyquist is a very theoretical thing and requires an infinitely wide filter to get the original signal back.

On any practical device you'll start to get artifacts that look like AM as you approach Nyquist, this is due to the samples moving in and out of phase with the peaks and zero crossings in the signal.

The highest frequency you can hope to see correctly will be approx Nyquist/1.25 which just happens to be 40MHz. Bingo! Math, it works.  :popcorn:

I'm still mulling over whether to get one of these. OTOH it might be better to sell my Rigol DS1054Z and put the money towards a Micsig.

One question: How shiny are the screens on these? The screens on Micsigs look awfully shiny in videos. I hate that.

Except its supposed to be 1Gsa/s scope not 100Msa/s, cheap front end holds it back....

As for the screen, its shiny, as shiny as the Micsig for all intents and purposes.
 

Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #122 on: June 30, 2020, 02:51:34 pm »
I would claim that the scope cannot display a 85MHz sine wave, if the sampling frequency is 100MSa/s. You need at least 2 samples per period of the sine wave. I conclude that this a 200MSa/s scope. But of course, results start degrading much earlier than samplefreq/2. Hence, the results starts becoming unreasonable above 40MHz (which would mean 5 samples per sine wave).

Anyhow, a Mini DS213 has a 100MSa/s samplerate, the price is higher, the display is smaller, and it has no touch screen. So maybe the 1013d is a reasonable choice for its price point?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #123 on: June 30, 2020, 03:31:26 pm »
I would claim that the scope cannot display a 85MHz sine wave, if the sampling frequency is 100MSa/s. You need at least 2 samples per period of the sine wave. I conclude that this a 200MSa/s scope. But of course, results start degrading much earlier than samplefreq/2. Hence, the results starts becoming unreasonable above 40MHz (which would mean 5 samples per sine wave).

Anyhow, a Mini DS213 has a 100MSa/s samplerate, the price is higher, the display is smaller, and it has no touch screen. So maybe the 1013d is a reasonable choice for its price point?

Wait, I'm confused...

Many sellers say: "100MS/s"

eg. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001123682082.html

But the official store says: "100M bandwidth 1GS sampling rate"

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000934486311.html

I imagine the official store is correct, in which case there's something that doesn't add up.

 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #124 on: June 30, 2020, 03:34:58 pm »
As for the screen, its shiny, as shiny as the Micsig for all intents and purposes.

OK, thanks.
 

Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #125 on: June 30, 2020, 03:38:49 pm »
As far as I was aware, the claimed (fake) specs were always 100MHz bandwidth at 1GSa/s. That's why people like wolfy007 would even try frequencies like 85MHz. If it was 100MSa/s, you would probably expect things to go wrong above 20MHz.
 
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #126 on: June 30, 2020, 04:00:41 pm »
100MHz, 100MSa/s:
[attachimg=1]

« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 04:03:43 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline CDaniel

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #127 on: June 30, 2020, 07:16:20 pm »
The Tektronix is a combo analog + digital scope , made in the period of transition from analog to digital .  Used in analog mode ( like an old scope ) has 100MHz bandwidth , but if you want the digital stuff like measurements on screen  , cursors , storage is just 100MS/sec so much lower usable bandwidth
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 07:28:17 pm by CDaniel »
 
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Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #128 on: June 30, 2020, 07:41:59 pm »
What CDaniel said: the given bandwidth is the spec of the analog part, which is responsible for putting the lines on the screen. This has nothing to do with the problems that digitial scopes face, when they have to reconstruct a sine wave based on a digital discrete-time signal, i.e., a sequence of digital samples.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #129 on: June 30, 2020, 08:08:32 pm »
But when I hear 100MHz/100MSa/s the 2232 automatically comes to my mind :-)

The analog bandwidth is a must, but the MSa/s for repetitive signals isn't... back then, that's what the "repetitive store mode" was for. Non repetitive and one shots are a different beast of course.

The 2232 has been my favourite scope for more than 20 years, I still like it, I still use it sometimes. Memory depth: 1k/4k samples :-) It's got the best user interface of any scope I've ever seen. Wanna save a waveform? Press store and the memory number. Want to recall a saved waveform? Simply press the memory number 1..4 and voilá. A pleasure to use, no infinite menus and submenus, each function has a dedicated button. CRT + awesome vector graphics. I love it.
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Offline CDaniel

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #130 on: June 30, 2020, 08:30:03 pm »
In a complete digital scope even if you have the input amplifier analog bandwidth you won't see it on screen  if the ADC sample rate is low ...
In my opinion this cheap chineese scopes are just toys usable for beginers , better buy an used portable old Fluke , like model 97 which have an extra powerfull meter
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 08:41:49 pm by CDaniel »
 

Online UniSoft

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #131 on: July 01, 2020, 11:36:31 am »
1013D doesn't have 1GSa/s!!!
But the way, I made that screenshots of internal parts on the first page...
name of ADC IC is erased, but by pinout can see that this is AD9288-100MSa/s
(also frequency on ENC(A,B) pins is 100MHz).
so the real rate is 200MSa/s on each channel!!!
 

Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #132 on: July 01, 2020, 11:53:11 am »
1013D doesn't have 1GSa/s!!!
Yes, we know that already.

But the way, I made that screenshots of internal parts on the first page...
name of ADC IC is erased, but by pinout can see that this is AD9288-100MSa/s
(also frequency on ENC(A,B) pins is 100MHz).
so the real rate is 200MSa/s on each channel!!!
I don't understand. You say 100MSa/s, then 100MHz, and then you conclude with 200Ma/s per channel! That doesn't workout. Do you mean 200MSa/s for both channels (meaning 100MSa/s per channel)?

As far as I understand ENCA/B defined the sample rate of the ADC. How can the scope reconstruct and show a sine wave of up to 85MHz with only 100MSa/s per channel? That's a mathematical impossibility.

If you measured ENCA/B, that rules our the possibility that they "overclock" the ADCs. Is there a variant of the AD9288 that samples on both edges of ENCA/B?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 11:59:29 am by skoehler »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #133 on: July 01, 2020, 12:42:31 pm »
1013D doesn't have 1GSa/s!!!
Yes, we know that already.

But the way, I made that screenshots of internal parts on the first page...
name of ADC IC is erased, but by pinout can see that this is AD9288-100MSa/s
(also frequency on ENC(A,B) pins is 100MHz).
so the real rate is 200MSa/s on each channel!!!
I don't understand. You say 100MSa/s, then 100MHz, and then you conclude with 200Ma/s per channel! That doesn't workout. Do you mean 200MSa/s for both channels (meaning 100MSa/s per channel)?

As far as I understand ENCA/B defined the sample rate of the ADC. How can the scope reconstruct and show a sine wave of up to 85MHz with only 100MSa/s per channel? That's a mathematical impossibility.

If you measured ENCA/B, that rules our the possibility that they "overclock" the ADCs. Is there a variant of the AD9288 that samples on both edges of ENCA/B?

Have you ever seen AD9288 data sheet and understood it.  This is old ADC what have used in tens on different manufacturers low end scopes even models what have 1Gsa/s sampling speed and years these have handled and discussed here in forum repeatedly. Of course less today due to fact that most manufacturers use more modern circuits today. One famous model was Rigol1000E models, also Siglent, also hantek and many others. Most of them put 5 ADC inside scope for get 1Gsa/s (interleaved).
Now I have seen OP fist images and explanation. There can see 2 pcs ADC chips. One for each channel. So, IF they are AD9288 or clones,  it can give 200Msa/s both channels simultaneously.  Just because inside one ADC IC there is 2pcs 100Msa/s ADC. And these can connect for interleaving.  Some of these chips are manufaturer graded to slower clock, example for 40MHz just because all chips are not best ones. All tey can work with 100MHz clock but all do not meet all analog conversion specs with this speed so manufacturer have classified these chips for different speed class. In history it was just fun when Rigol use these 40M classified chips as 100M and remove all labels from chips.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 12:44:26 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #134 on: July 01, 2020, 12:55:08 pm »
interleaving
That makes sense. So it's two 100MSa/s ADCs interleaved for both channels giving us 200MSa/s.
So that explains why things go really bad above 85 MHz.

So following the 1:5 rule, the 1013d is a 40MHz scope.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #135 on: July 01, 2020, 02:00:45 pm »
interleaving
That makes sense. So it's two 100MSa/s ADCs interleaved for both channels giving us 200MSa/s.
So that explains why things go really bad above 85 MHz.

So following the 1:5 rule, the 1013d is a 40MHz scope.

Roughly saying yes if we talk about "single shot" usable BW. If there is available way or other implemented repetitive  acquisition mode it change this.
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Offline martinot

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #136 on: July 02, 2020, 02:58:57 pm »
The reason I'm not buying the 1013d is that I am thinking about buying a Siglent 1202X-E. It's available though German shops and I will have a more mature product, higher bandwidth, etc.

Have you seen the Micsig tablets?

Same form factor and touchscreen as a 1013D, more powerful than a Siglent.

https://micsig.aliexpress.com/store/group/Tablet-Oscilloscope/1293611_509734614.html

OK, a bit more expensive than the Siglent but if that's what you're after then it's worth saving up a little bit more.

This Micsig looks to be a perfect scope for portability, but still better value than the classic "cheap" desktop scopes by the other Chinse brands (Rigol, Siglent, Owon, etc.).

Thinking about to get this one with button/knobs on the side:

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Micsig-STO1104C.html
https://www.batronix.com/files/Micsig/STO1000/STO1000C-data-sheet.pdf
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #137 on: July 04, 2020, 06:47:51 am »
I have one.
Same lame interleaved sampling AD9288 100MS/s ADC, one per channel. So 200MS/s if using bi-phase clock.

FNIRSI 1013D Portable Tablet Oscilloscope PCB by Dave Jones, on Flickr
« Last Edit: July 04, 2020, 06:49:57 am by EEVblog »
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #138 on: July 04, 2020, 11:38:48 am »
I have one.

I'm still on the fence.

Same lame interleaved sampling AD9288 100MS/s ADC

That perfectly fits the observation that the signal goes to hell above 40MHz but it's a MASSIVE lie by the manufacturers.

A new low for testgear number exaggeration/inflation?

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #139 on: July 04, 2020, 11:44:56 am »
Same lame interleaved sampling AD9288 100MS/s ADC
That perfectly fits the observation that the signal goes to hell above 40MHz but it's a MASSIVE lie by the manufacturers.
A new low for testgear number exaggeration/inflation?

Yep. It's 200MS/s actually as both ADC's in the one chip are clocked out of phase, same signal goes into both ADC channels.
I'd call it 20MHz and be done with it.
Still a dual channel 20MHz 7" touch screen portable tablet scope for $140 isn't bad.
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #140 on: July 04, 2020, 12:00:37 pm »
Yep. It's 200MS/s actually as both ADC's in the one chip are clocked out of phase, same signal goes into both ADC channels.

Is it one chip per channel (the two unmarked chips at bottom right)?

If so that's "400MSamples/sec" - nothing to be ashamed of but I don't see anybody advertising that number. They all have numbers that start with a "1".

Still a dual channel 20MHz 7" touch screen portable tablet scope for $140 isn't bad.

Yep.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2020, 12:04:27 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #141 on: July 04, 2020, 01:39:20 pm »
Yep. It's 200MS/s actually as both ADC's in the one chip are clocked out of phase, same signal goes into both ADC channels.
Is it one chip per channel (the two unmarked chips at bottom right)?

If so that's "400MSamples/sec" - nothing to be ashamed of but I don't see anybody advertising that number. They all have numbers that start with a "1".
It's still 200MSa/s as explained above. Multiplying by two just because you have two channels doesn't make any sense. Yes, some scopes have 1GSa/s when using one channel and only 500MSa/s when using two channels, but this scope has 200MSa/s regardless of how many channels you use. At least that's what I understood so far. And the "marketing" is off by a factor of 5, which is pretty big lie that's totally unnecessary.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #142 on: July 04, 2020, 01:58:20 pm »
Yep. It's 200MS/s actually as both ADC's in the one chip are clocked out of phase, same signal goes into both ADC channels.
Is it one chip per channel (the two unmarked chips at bottom right)?
If so that's "400MSamples/sec" - nothing to be ashamed of but I don't see anybody advertising that number. They all have numbers that start with a "1".

Yes, one dual ADC per channel. As far as I see, no way to combine 4 ADC's for one channel.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #143 on: July 04, 2020, 02:56:42 pm »
Yes, one dual ADC per channel. As far as I see, no way to combine 4 ADC's for one channel.

And not much point if the front end isn't up to the job.

(or maybe the front end is up to the job and it's the firmware that's going to hell, I assume this will be covered in the video  :)  )
« Last Edit: July 04, 2020, 02:59:29 pm by Fungus »
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #144 on: July 04, 2020, 03:14:51 pm »
If to click save without SD card then firmware complete hangs...
Without a battery, the MCU should go into boot mode (this is implemented in the circuit), but it does not seem to work.
There is no way to update the firmware.
 

Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #145 on: July 04, 2020, 03:28:33 pm »
Without a battery, the MCU should go into boot mode (this is implemented in the circuit), but it does not seem to work.

What do you mean by "without a battery" ? Does it mean, that you disconnect the battery and power this device via USB only?

There is no way to update the firmware.
If true, that would be sad.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #146 on: July 04, 2020, 05:17:37 pm »
What do you mean by "without a battery" ? Does it mean, that you disconnect the battery and power this device via USB only?
Yes, it is...
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #147 on: July 06, 2020, 04:09:08 pm »
Still a dual channel 20MHz 7" touch screen portable tablet scope for $140 isn't bad.

I agree. The main limitation I think  is not the 20 Mhz bandwidth, but the 50 mV  sensitivity.

Besides,   one can understand that they can find many ways to measure the bandwidth, but  I find that their most outrageous claim is the  < 3ns  rise time
while I measured 12 ns  at least, using Leo Bodnar  tool.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #148 on: July 06, 2020, 05:52:56 pm »
Without a battery, the MCU should go into boot mode (this is implemented in the circuit), but it does not seem to work.
There is no way to update the firmware.

Well, actually the firmware is stored ouside of the SOC in the SPI flash, so it can be updated, just not without opening the device up...
 

Offline CDaniel

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #149 on: July 07, 2020, 06:40:38 am »
Seriously , updates for a thing that was made like a toy with big hardware limitations ...
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #150 on: July 07, 2020, 11:43:11 am »
Seriously , updates for a thing that was made like a toy with big hardware limitations ...

Sure, why not?
 
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Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #151 on: July 15, 2020, 10:24:21 pm »
I ordered one from amazon last evening--after reading through this entire thread--and as one poster said, $150 for a 2-channel 20 Mhz (maybe 40?) 7" touchscreen tablet scope isn't too bad. In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.

After my experiences with the FNIRSI-5012H I did not expect it would/could meet the 100 MHz and 1Gs/s specs--too bad they have to just outright lie about these things, they'd get a lot more respect if they published the real specs.

I hope it triggers reasonably well on aperiodic bursts (which modern automobile control systems produce mostly), that was my deal breaker with the 5012, will get this one going back to Amazon as well.
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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #152 on: July 15, 2020, 10:57:07 pm »
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.
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Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #153 on: July 15, 2020, 11:21:11 pm »
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....
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Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #154 on: July 16, 2020, 01:07:19 am »
Don't know if anyone is interested, however in digging around the web early this morning I did find a PDF file of the 1013-D User Manual (47.5 MB)--for what it's worth...

I love the "Solemn reminder" section, lead me to wonder if the fellow above who tested the rise time used the 10X mode?
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Offline snoopy

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #155 on: July 16, 2020, 01:22:54 am »
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly. I just bought one of these scopes and whilst it's not perfect I do find that I use it when the other scopes are tied up. Because it is portable and easy on the battery it is a great portable scope I can throw in the car anytime. Much cheaper than buying a battery for the TDS3000 ;) Hopefully they will offer some firmware upgrades and allow the auto triggering level detection to be switched on or off. Like Dave said it is essentially,limited to 20MHz but that is fine with me for a general purpose portable scope for measuring audio and power stuff ;)

cheers
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #156 on: July 16, 2020, 01:33:29 am »
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly. I just bought one of these scopes and whilst it's not perfect I do find that I use it when the other scopes are tied up. Because it is portable and easy on the battery it is a great portable scope I can throw in the car anytime. Much cheaper than buying a battery for the TDS3000 ;) Hopefully they will offer some firmware upgrades and allow the auto triggering level detection to be switched on or off. Like Dave said it is essentially,limited to 20MHz but that is fine with me for a general purpose portable scope for measuring audio and power stuff ;)

cheers

Not at all; it would be sending back an oscilloscope claimed (by the vendor via Amazon) to have a 100 MHz bandwidth, 1 Gs/s sample rate and <3 ns risetime:



that does not...
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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #157 on: July 16, 2020, 01:51:16 am »
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly.
Nope, 500mV/div max sensitivity using a 10x probe is just inadequate for many requirements.

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #158 on: July 16, 2020, 02:06:45 am »
Nope, 500mV/div max sensitivity using a 10x probe is just inadequate for many requirements.

However for the remainder it is not, for example it would be entirely adequate for displaying the primary waveform of a contemporary "coil-on-plug" automotive ignition system:

this is the "triple-strike" firing pattern used on many modern cars at idle and lowish RPMs to ensure a clean burn


Or the PWM signal at an idle air control:



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Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #159 on: July 17, 2020, 10:02:50 am »
I just bought one too  :palm:

Even with all the lies, bugs and limitations, I find the concept to be excellent.
I sometimes need to "see something" in hard to reach places or when I am not in the lab.
When we just need to see if the clock signal is here or if we have our RS422 pairs at the right place, no need for the big 5000€ scope balanced on the crimping pliers.

The fact that we can increase the battery capacity is great, the big 7" screen is also great, no fan. I hesitated with a handled oscilloscope but I find them very expensive.
If I like the concept, I think it will lead me to buy a Micsig tablet oscilloscope but the small form factor of this little Fnirsi is very very nice.

If they make their code open source, they can sell millions, I think.
It need a small silicone protection and a more expensive 50 € model with real 500 MSa/s
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #160 on: July 17, 2020, 10:22:00 am »
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly. I just bought one of these scopes and whilst it's not perfect I do find that I use it when the other scopes are tied up. Because it is portable and easy on the battery it is a great portable scope I can throw in the car anytime. Much cheaper than buying a battery for the TDS3000 ;) Hopefully they will offer some firmware upgrades and allow the auto triggering level detection to be switched on or off. Like Dave said it is essentially,limited to 20MHz but that is fine with me for a general purpose portable scope for measuring audio and power stuff ;)

cheers

Not at all; it would be sending back an oscilloscope claimed (by the vendor via Amazon) to have a 100 MHz bandwidth, 1 Gs/s sample rate and <3 ns risetime:



that does not...

OK from here on and based on Dave's review you can assume it is a 20 MHz scope. Still a very useful portable battery operated dual channel scope for $140 IMHO ;)

cheers
david

 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #161 on: July 17, 2020, 10:24:30 am »
If they make their code open source...

If only...

It need a small silicone protection and a more expensive 50 € model with real 500 MSa/s

I'm thinking the next generation of these could be awesome.

 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #162 on: July 17, 2020, 10:29:32 am »
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly.
Nope, 500mV/div max sensitivity using a 10x probe is just inadequate for many requirements.

OK what has siglent got to offer with battery operated, dual channel, 7 inch 800x480 full color touch sensitive display etc ?? And not some iddy biddy 3 inch QVGA BS either !!

What you got ??

cheers
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 10:35:35 am by snoopy »
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #163 on: July 17, 2020, 10:32:01 am »
If they make their code open source...

If only...

It need a small silicone protection and a more expensive 50 € model with real 500 MSa/s

I'm thinking the next generation of these could be awesome.

If the improvement over the original bar of soap scope is anything to go by then the next model could be a very serious proposition and this company whoever they may be could become a serious contender in the portable scope market ;)

cheers
david
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #164 on: July 17, 2020, 10:38:30 am »
I just bought one too  :palm:

Even with all the lies, bugs and limitations, I find the concept to be excellent.
I sometimes need to "see something" in hard to reach places or when I am not in the lab.
When we just need to see if the clock signal is here or if we have our RS422 pairs at the right place, no need for the big 5000€ scope balanced on the crimping pliers.

The fact that we can increase the battery capacity is great, the big 7" screen is also great, no fan. I hesitated with a handled oscilloscope but I find them very expensive.
If I like the concept, I think it will lead me to buy a Micsig tablet oscilloscope but the small form factor of this little Fnirsi is very very nice.

If they make their code open source, they can sell millions, I think.
It need a small silicone protection and a more expensive 50 € model with real 500 MSa/s

Also what a lot of others have overlooked with this scope is that because it is battery operated you can float the measurements above ground although I wouldn't recommend this when measuring mains equipment for safety reasons !!

cheers
david
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #165 on: July 17, 2020, 10:49:29 am »
If the improvement over the original bar of soap scope is anything to go by then the next model could be a very serious proposition and this company whoever they may be could become a serious contender in the portable scope market ;)

The only reason I haven't bought one of these is that if I sell my Rigol DS1054Z and add $140 to the result (the cost of one of these) I'm in Micsig territory. A Micsig would make a lot more sense.

Plus Micsigs have a 4-channel option and I want 4-channel capability somewhere.

(OTOH I've got an Analog Discovery 2 on order so the 4-channel requirement might disappear when that arrives)

« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 10:54:56 am by Fungus »
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #166 on: July 17, 2020, 11:14:02 am »
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly.
Nope, 500mV/div max sensitivity using a 10x probe is just inadequate for many requirements.

OK what has siglent got to offer with battery operated, dual channel, 7 inch 800x480 full color touch sensitive display etc ?? And not some iddy biddy 3 inch QVGA BS either !!

What you got ??

cheers
5.7" display and BW's to 200 MHz and some with 1000V CAT II isolation between channels, all 5 mV sensitivity AND a datasheet that can be trusted !

Nothing flash at all but they work as per their spec.

And you don't think 50 mV max sensitivity is piss poor ?  :-//
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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #167 on: July 17, 2020, 11:50:07 am »
OK what has siglent got to offer with battery operated, dual channel, 7 inch 800x480 full color touch sensitive display etc ??
5.7" display and BW's to 200 MHz and some with 1000V CAT II isolation between channels, all 5 mV sensitivity AND a datasheet that can be trusted !

Just not battery operated or with 7 inch touch display.

Do you even bother reading the posts before replying?  :palm:

 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #168 on: July 17, 2020, 12:04:57 pm »
Siglent SHS800 are battery powered.
This is the first model I looked at when I wanted a portable oscilloscope. But it is too big to be operated by hand, and too expensive as a "small portable bench scope".
The Micsig seems very interesting but too advanced for what I wanted to do.
There is also the Hantek 2C72 but the FNIRSI does just the right thing, 2 channels, large screen and large battery.

This thing cannot and should not be compared to the Siglent or Micsig offer.
And cannot and should not be used as a real scope or to replace a real oscilloscope.
It's just a cheap portable tool that allows you to take measurements very usefull in certain situations.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #169 on: July 17, 2020, 12:21:35 pm »
In looking at the signals I deal with (hobbyist electronics and automotive stuff) the 50 mv/div sensitivity is not really an issue.
It's marginal though when using a 10x probe as we do for most stuff.

That is so...

We shall see, the good news is that if it is not a useful tool for any reason (even if the novelty wears off and it's no longer "fun") it can go back to Amazon within 30 days--for the simple and indisputable fact that it does not meet the published specs....

That's like sending a 100MHz scope back to Amazon because it can't measure 500MHz properly.
Nope, 500mV/div max sensitivity using a 10x probe is just inadequate for many requirements.

OK what has siglent got to offer with battery operated, dual channel, 7 inch 800x480 full color touch sensitive display etc ?? And not some iddy biddy 3 inch QVGA BS either !!

What you got ??

cheers
5.7" display and BW's to 200 MHz and some with 1000V CAT II isolation between channels, all 5 mV sensitivity AND a datasheet that can be trusted !

Nothing flash at all but they work as per their spec.

And you don't think 50 mV max sensitivity is piss poor ?  :-//

How much ??

cheers
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #170 on: July 17, 2020, 12:29:35 pm »
Siglent SHS800 are battery powered.
This is the first model I looked at when I wanted a portable oscilloscope. But it is too big to be operated by hand, and too expensive as a "small portable bench scope".
The Micsig seems very interesting but too advanced for what I wanted to do.
There is also the Hantek 2C72 but the FNIRSI does just the right thing, 2 channels, large screen and large battery.

This thing cannot and should not be compared to the Siglent or Micsig offer.
And cannot and should not be used as a real scope or to replace a real oscilloscope.
It's just a cheap portable tool that allows you to take measurements very usefull in certain situations.

Yes and it's a hell of lot better than having no scope at all !!

For some time I have been looking for a Tek THS7xx scope at a reasonable price. Only monochrome and QVA but have proper isolation between channels but only 30k record depth :( The Tek THS3000 are way to exe but offer 4 channels and full color but still QVGA and 30k record depth. Or the Keysight U1620 which has 2M point record depth going for around $1000 USD if you are lucky to get all of the accessories. However this scope will do me for a while ;) Hopefully we should see some firmware upgrades if people would stop bagging the crap out of it all of the time and instead offer some constructive criticism :(

cheers
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 12:33:52 pm by snoopy »
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #171 on: July 17, 2020, 12:32:23 pm »
If the improvement over the original bar of soap scope is anything to go by then the next model could be a very serious proposition and this company whoever they may be could become a serious contender in the portable scope market ;)

The only reason I haven't bought one of these is that if I sell my Rigol DS1054Z and add $140 to the result (the cost of one of these) I'm in Micsig territory. A Micsig would make a lot more sense.

Plus Micsigs have a 4-channel option and I want 4-channel capability somewhere.

(OTOH I've got an Analog Discovery 2 on order so the 4-channel requirement might disappear when that arrives)

I have a 1054z tied up doing I2C decoding so this scope becomes useful for the other measurements when I don't want to boot up the Tek TDS7054 all of the time !

cheers
david
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #172 on: July 17, 2020, 12:37:46 pm »
I have a 1054z tied up doing I2C decoding so this scope becomes useful for the other measurements when I don't want to boot up the Tek TDS7054 all of the time !

I'm hoping the AD2 can take over the decoding duties.

 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #173 on: July 17, 2020, 01:03:02 pm »
Yes it does and in real time  :)
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #174 on: July 17, 2020, 01:23:32 pm »
Hey, I just worked out how to turn off the auto triggering level. It's in the system menu  |O This scope just got a lot better  :-+

cheers
david
 

Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #175 on: July 17, 2020, 01:29:52 pm »
Got mine yesterday evening, haven't "played with it" a lot yet (it is for certain a toy) of course. However I can confirm the following (in no special order):

  • It is as cute as a bug's ear;
  • The capacitive touch screen UI is quite nice, responsive and nicely configured;
  • It triggers properly on aperiodic bursts usin 5 bursts of a 1 MHz pulse at a 100 kHz repetition rate.
  • It does not have a usable bandwidth of anywhere near 100 MHz;
  • In X10 mode and mucking about with the probe's compensation I found I could create an incredibly non-linear "peaky as hell' response that might perhaps pass a 100 MHz signal--this may be how the rice-burners that market it justify their "100 MHz" and "< 3ns" claims;
  • It is as cute as a bug's ear;
  • In X10 mode the vertical input characteristics are different at each sensitivity setting--making X10 mode even more useless;
  • The FFT math function does nothing but provide a vertically constrained, fixed position, non-calibrated, non-adjustable, clipped off at the top picture of the waveform's spectral content--it is more annoying than useful;
  • The battery seems quite capable of meeting the 4 hour runtime claim;
  • The user manual is horrid, tiny, incomplete and obviously written by someone with an only partial command of the English language;
  • It is as cute as a bug's ear;
  • The -3 dB bandwidth in X1 mode (using just a 50 Ω BNC patch cable) is 20 MHz;
  • I have no way of measuring the sample rate, however I seriously doubt it is 1 Gs/s;
  • Within it's real capabilities the display is very nice;
  • It runs well when charging via the supplied wall wart, however when connected to the USB charging station also powering my function generator or my desktop computer it goes haywire--some ground loop issue I suspect;
  • It is as cute as a bug's ear;
  • Mine is branded Yeapook, though in the Amazon ad copy it was shown as being FNIRSI;
So all that said, and as what I will likely use it for (automotive, motorcycles, etc.) does not require an X10 probe or 100 MHz bandwidth, I think I will keep it. It's portability alone makes it a worthwhile tool. I's too bad the makers feel they need to lie about it's specs.

Did I mention it is as cute as a bug's ear?
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Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #176 on: July 17, 2020, 10:39:31 pm »
Got mine yesterday evening, haven't "played with it" a lot yet (it is for certain a toy) of course. However I can confirm the following (in no special order):

  • It is as cute as a bug's ear;
  • The capacitive touch screen UI is quite nice, responsive and nicely configured;
  • It triggers properly on aperiodic bursts usin 5 bursts of a 1 MHz pulse at a 100 kHz repetition rate.
  • It does not have a usable bandwidth of anywhere near 100 MHz;
  • In X10 mode and mucking about with the probe's compensation I found I could create an incredibly non-linear "peaky as hell' response that might perhaps pass a 100 MHz signal--this may be how the rice-burners that market it justify their "100 MHz" and "< 3ns" claims;
  • It is as cute as a bug's ear;
  • In X10 mode the vertical input characteristics are different at each sensitivity setting--making X10 mode even more useless;
  • The FFT math function does nothing but provide a vertically constrained, fixed position, non-calibrated, non-adjustable, clipped off at the top picture of the waveform's spectral content--it is more annoying than useful;
  • The battery seems quite capable of meeting the 4 hour runtime claim;
  • The user manual is horrid, tiny, incomplete and obviously written by someone with an only partial command of the English language;
  • It is as cute as a bug's ear;
  • The -3 dB bandwidth in X1 mode (using just a 50 Ω BNC patch cable) is 20 MHz;
  • I have no way of measuring the sample rate, however I seriously doubt it is 1 Gs/s;
  • Within it's real capabilities the display is very nice;
  • It runs well when charging via the supplied wall wart, however when connected to the USB charging station also powering my function generator or my desktop computer it goes haywire--some ground loop issue I suspect;
  • It is as cute as a bug's ear;
  • Mine is branded Yeapook, though in the Amazon ad copy it was shown as being FNIRSI;
So all that said, and as what I will likely use it for (automotive, motorcycles, etc.) does not require an X10 probe or 100 MHz bandwidth, I think I will keep it. It's portability alone makes it a worthwhile tool. I's too bad the makers feel they need to lie about it's specs.

Did I mention it is as cute as a bug's ear?

Would you mind dumping the winbond SPI flash and posting it here? It would definitely help with reverse engineering it! I've ordered one but it's coming on a human-powered boat from China...
 

Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #177 on: July 17, 2020, 10:48:44 pm »

Would you mind dumping the winbond SPI flash and posting it here? It would definitely help with reverse engineering it! I've ordered one but it's coming on a human-powered boat from China...

I would be pleased to;  how do I go about doing so? What do I need?
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Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #178 on: July 18, 2020, 12:27:35 am »
I just bought one too  :palm:

Even with all the lies, bugs and limitations, I find the concept to be excellent.
I sometimes need to "see something" in hard to reach places or when I am not in the lab.
When we just need to see if the clock signal is here or if we have our RS422 pairs at the right place, no need for the big 5000€ scope balanced on the crimping pliers.

The fact that we can increase the battery capacity is great, the big 7" screen is also great, no fan. I hesitated with a handled oscilloscope but I find them very expensive.
If I like the concept, I think it will lead me to buy a Micsig tablet oscilloscope but the small form factor of this little Fnirsi is very very nice.

If they make their code open source, they can sell millions, I think.
It need a small silicone protection and a more expensive 50 € model with real 500 MSa/s

That's pretty much the way I look at it, I have a $360 Hantek 1062B with an actual 60 MHz bandwidth, 1 Gs/s sample rate, 2 mv/div sensitivity, and a real configurable and adjustable FFT function.

It is approximately the same size but has just a 5.7" 640 x 480 display, a cooling fan, and weighs 1.2 kg vs. 707 g for the little guy. It also requires 12 VDC to charge vs. the little fella's nearly ubiquitous 5 VDC requirement.

The Hantek is cute (it would be better with a larger touchscreen):



But not as "cute as a bug's ear":





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Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #179 on: July 18, 2020, 12:33:37 am »

Would you mind dumping the winbond SPI flash and posting it here? It would definitely help with reverse engineering it! I've ordered one but it's coming on a human-powered boat from China...

I would be pleased to;  how do I go about doing so? What do I need?

Awesome! You'll need a CH341A (preferred) or a Raspberry Pi (any model) or, as a last resource, a blue pill board.

If you don't own any of those devices you could order the CH341A on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/JW-USB-Programmer-CH341A-Burner-Chip-Writer-SOP-Clip-Adapter-EEPROM-BIOS-FLAS/233635841518), but in that case I think it's not worth it as I'd probably get my device before you get the programmer. However, if the open-source firmware comes along nicely and you want to flash it, you'll need one of those devices too, so it's not wasted money ;)

In case you own a CH341A, you will need to connect it to the SPI memory and dump it using the provided software.
In case of using a Raspberry Pi, a software called "flashrom" can be used to use the GPIO as the interface to the SPI chip. (https://www.flashrom.org/RaspberryPi)
With the blue pill board it's more tricky to do.

In all cases, the CPU will need to be held in a reset state in order to free the SPI bus for the programmer to use it. The only other way is physically de soldering the SPI chip from the board.

PD: To hold the CPU in reset, pin 70 needs to be shorted to GND. There's a convenient pad attached to it (https://prnt.sc/tjxfnl).
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 12:37:35 am by iscle »
 

Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #180 on: July 18, 2020, 01:22:43 am »

Would you mind dumping the winbond SPI flash and posting it here? It would definitely help with reverse engineering it! I've ordered one but it's coming on a human-powered boat from China...

I would be pleased to;  how do I go about doing so? What do I need?

Awesome! You'll need a CH341A (preferred) or a Raspberry Pi (any model) or, as a last resource, a blue pill board.

If you don't own any of those devices you could order the CH341A on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/JW-USB-Programmer-CH341A-Burner-Chip-Writer-SOP-Clip-Adapter-EEPROM-BIOS-FLAS/233635841518), but in that case I think it's not worth it as I'd probably get my device before you get the programmer. However, if the open-source firmware comes along nicely and you want to flash it, you'll need one of those devices too, so it's not wasted money ;)

In case you own a CH341A, you will need to connect it to the SPI memory and dump it using the provided software.
In case of using a Raspberry Pi, a software called "flashrom" can be used to use the GPIO as the interface to the SPI chip. (https://www.flashrom.org/RaspberryPi)
With the blue pill board it's more tricky to do.

In all cases, the CPU will need to be held in a reset state in order to free the SPI bus for the programmer to use it. The only other way is physically de soldering the SPI chip from the board.

PD: To hold the CPU in reset, pin 70 needs to be shorted to GND. There's a convenient pad attached to it (https://prnt.sc/tjxfnl).

I do not buy from China via eBay, having been stung too many times after waiting weeks on end. I do see what looks like the same device on Amazon for $8.88 w/ Prime shipping

Amazon does not vet it's vendors as well as they could/should, eBay is worse!

I have a CP2102 based USB to TTL interface I have used to update firmware on a JYETech DSO112A. I wonder if that could work, however to be honest as my Parkinson's has advanced over the last year I have become less confident about mucking about on SMD boards with a soldering iron, I would hate to brick my new $160 toy (SWMBO would kill me)...

I will do some research any see if it's something I feel comfortable jumping in to...
-cliff knight-

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Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #181 on: July 18, 2020, 01:35:37 am »

Would you mind dumping the winbond SPI flash and posting it here? It would definitely help with reverse engineering it! I've ordered one but it's coming on a human-powered boat from China...

I would be pleased to;  how do I go about doing so? What do I need?

Awesome! You'll need a CH341A (preferred) or a Raspberry Pi (any model) or, as a last resource, a blue pill board.

If you don't own any of those devices you could order the CH341A on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/JW-USB-Programmer-CH341A-Burner-Chip-Writer-SOP-Clip-Adapter-EEPROM-BIOS-FLAS/233635841518), but in that case I think it's not worth it as I'd probably get my device before you get the programmer. However, if the open-source firmware comes along nicely and you want to flash it, you'll need one of those devices too, so it's not wasted money ;)

In case you own a CH341A, you will need to connect it to the SPI memory and dump it using the provided software.
In case of using a Raspberry Pi, a software called "flashrom" can be used to use the GPIO as the interface to the SPI chip. (https://www.flashrom.org/RaspberryPi)
With the blue pill board it's more tricky to do.

In all cases, the CPU will need to be held in a reset state in order to free the SPI bus for the programmer to use it. The only other way is physically de soldering the SPI chip from the board.

PD: To hold the CPU in reset, pin 70 needs to be shorted to GND. There's a convenient pad attached to it (https://prnt.sc/tjxfnl).

I do not buy from China via eBay, having been stung too many times after waiting weeks on end. I do see what looks like the same device on Amazon for $8.88 w/ Prime shipping

Amazon does not vet it's vendors as well as they could/should, eBay is worse!

I have a CP2102 based USB to TTL interface I have used to update firmware on a JYETech DSO112A. I wonder if that could work, however to be honest as my Parkinson's has advanced over the last year I have become less confident about mucking about on SMD boards with a soldering iron, I would hate to brick my new $160 toy (SWMBO would kill me)...

I will do some research any see if it's something I feel comfortable jumping in to...

The one in Amazon is the same, but it does not come with the clip connector which is useful in these situations.

That said, there's no smd soldering involved! FNIRSI were kind enough to give us access to all the pins required with standard 2.54mm pin headers (https://prnt.sc/tjxzwj). However, I completely understand that you don't want to risk it and kill your brand new oscilloscope :P

That's okay, I'll do it myself when I receive mine, and post full pinouts for every (unpopulated) header in the board, for future reference.

Thanks for the interest!
 

Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #182 on: July 18, 2020, 02:00:48 am »

The one in Amazon is the same, but it does not come with the clip connector which is useful in these situations.

That said, there's no smd soldering involved! FNIRSI were kind enough to give us access to all the pins required with standard 2.54mm pin headers (https://prnt.sc/tjxzwj). However, I completely understand that you don't want to risk it and kill your brand new oscilloscope :P

That's okay, I'll do it myself when I receive mine, and post full pinouts for every (unpopulated) header in the board, for future reference.

Thanks for the interest!

I just ordered one from Amazon, with the clip connector and some other physical interface devices ($13.58, this one). Supposed to be here Monday (evening is when we get deliveries out here "in the county").

I'll see what I can figure out then...


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Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #183 on: July 18, 2020, 02:24:38 am »
I just ordered one from Amazon, with the clip connector and some other physical interface devices ($13.58, this one). Supposed to be here Monday (evening is when we get deliveries out here "in the county").

I'll see what I can figure out then...

Awesome! I'm sure you'll find it useful in other situations too (SPI Flash chips are very common!).

The only thing you will need to solder is a jumper from the pin 70 header to GND, to keep the CPU in reset mode.


This is the driver + software for the programmer for Windows. I tested it on my machine with Windows 10 x64. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pPrfsr2i2ZM_NXGNXCCLFuscdtjxWvYx/view?usp=sharing (I don't recommend to download this software from other sources as some of them are viruses... It took some time to find this working, clean version).
You need to install the driver first, and then run the software. I've included various versions (as they support different chips). Try the latest one, and if it does not work keep trying the other ones until you find one that works. Worst thing that can happen is that the software won't be able to read the chip.

Those are the only steps that are required to read the chip (DO NOT PRESS THE "Auto", "Blank", "Write" OR "Erase" BUTTONS AS THAT WILL ERASE THE CHIP!):
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #184 on: July 18, 2020, 02:43:40 am »
The only thing you will need to solder is a jumper from the pin 70 header to GND, to keep the CPU in reset mode.

Looks like there's a GND hole without solder mask 2.54 millimeters to the left right of that.


That said, there's no smd soldering involved! FNIRSI were kind enough to give us access to all the pins required with standard 2.54mm pin headers (https://prnt.sc/tjxzwj).

Indeed. This thing was born to be hacked.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 08:22:34 am by Fungus »
 
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Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #185 on: July 18, 2020, 08:16:07 am »

Looks like there's a GND hole without solder mask 2.54 millimeters to the left of that.


That would be cool, I'll just slap a two-pin header strip in there and put a jumper on it...
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Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #186 on: July 18, 2020, 12:55:53 pm »
The only thing you will need to solder is a jumper from the pin 70 header to GND, to keep the CPU in reset mode.

Looks like there's a GND hole without solder mask 2.54 millimeters to the left right of that.

From the looks of it, that's not GND... This is a (low-res) picture of the underside:


Also, @cliffyk, could you take some clear pictures of the LCD ribbon cable and the Touchscreen IC chip? We need to identify them to write their drivers in the Linux Kernel. The pictures on page 1 of the topic does not show them clearly.

Thanks!
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #187 on: July 18, 2020, 01:02:42 pm »
From the looks of it, that's not GND... This is a (low-res) picture of the underside:

Seems hard to believe that they'd bring out that pin then put another hole 2.54mm away from it, no solder mask on either hole, but that's not what you're supposed to use.  :-//

[attachimg=1]
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 01:12:17 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #188 on: July 18, 2020, 01:13:42 pm »
[...] Also, @cliffyk, could you take some clear pictures of the LCD ribbon cable and the Touchscreen IC chip? We need to identify them to write their drivers in the Linux Kernel. [...]

There's lots of useful info here: http://nano.lichee.pro/ (chinese, use the google translate extension)

Seeing how quick it boots, I'd think it isn't booting uboot then linux, but maybe, perhaps xboot? + rt-thread, and also the simple UI may as well be littlevGL. (follow the links at the url above).
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Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #189 on: July 18, 2020, 01:24:11 pm »
[...] Also, @cliffyk, could you take some clear pictures of the LCD ribbon cable and the Touchscreen IC chip? We need to identify them to write their drivers in the Linux Kernel. [...]

[...] Seeing how quick it boots, I'd think it isn't booting uboot then linux, but maybe, perhaps xboot? + rt-thread, and also the simple UI may as well be littlevGL. [...]

Yeah! I thought about that too (but Linux can be made to boot that fast too, if you try hard enough). However, I'd like to use Linux in the new firmware as it's easier to use overall, and also allows us to use other UIs, like Qt. I still have to see if Qt will run in this little chip. If not, then GTK or LVGL would be my other choices.

There's a guy that has created a bare minimum buildroot configuration for this specific chip, which I'm planning to use as a base.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #190 on: July 18, 2020, 02:27:47 pm »
It's not going to be easy, first you've got to be sure you can reverse engineer the interface with the fpga, because without that you're not going anywhere.

P.D. the lichee nano (an F1C100S with a Linux) is $6 at seeedstudio.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 02:30:50 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #191 on: July 18, 2020, 02:34:11 pm »
It's not going to be easy, first you've got to be sure you can reverse engineer the interface with the fpga, because without that you're not going anywhere.

Yeah, I'll have to either reverse engineer the interface with the FPGA, or program the FPGA myself (which is my plan!). I'll of course back up all the SPI memories to be able to restore the scope to factory defaults. The main reason of buying this scope was to write full open-source code for it.

P.D. the lichee nano (an F1C100S with a Linux) is $6 at seeedstudio.

I know, very cheap! I have a Lichee Pi Zero which is quite similar, but a bit more powerful.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #192 on: July 18, 2020, 02:37:29 pm »
I know, very cheap! I have a Lichee Pi Zero which is quite similar, but a bit more powerful.

But that's an S3 (V3s?), right?
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Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #193 on: July 18, 2020, 02:58:31 pm »
I know, very cheap! I have a Lichee Pi Zero which is quite similar, but a bit more powerful.

But that's an S3 (V3s?), right?

Exactly, it's an S3 with integrated DDR2 memory. It's true that the V3s is a Cortex-A7, while the F1C00S is ARM926EJ-S, so binaries are not compatible. However, building for both is quite similar.
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #194 on: July 18, 2020, 05:28:46 pm »

Yeah, I'll have to either reverse engineer the interface with the FPGA, or program the FPGA myself (which is my plan!). I'll of course back up all the SPI memories to be able to restore the scope to factory defaults. The main reason of buying this scope was to write full open-source code for it.


I'm very interested to see how this goes.  I started work on open source for an Instek GDS-2000E but then killed the scope in an accident.  I'm trying to get a price on replacing the main board.

Have Fun!
Reg
 

Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #195 on: July 18, 2020, 06:36:56 pm »

Yeah, I'll have to either reverse engineer the interface with the FPGA, or program the FPGA myself (which is my plan!). I'll of course back up all the SPI memories to be able to restore the scope to factory defaults. The main reason of buying this scope was to write full open-source code for it.


I'm very interested to see how this goes.  I started work on open source for an Instek GDS-2000E but then killed the scope in an accident.  I'm trying to get a price on replacing the main board.

Have Fun!
Reg

Oh, that's an expensive accident...  :-\ In case of the FNIRSI-1013D, it's practically unkillable (unless you overvolt it, or short something you don't have to). I'm not that good with FPGAs yet, so any help will be appreciated (by me and by all the community, I'm sure) :)
 

Offline rhb

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #196 on: July 18, 2020, 07:14:32 pm »
I had leads on a header so I could probe the signals without shorting the pins, but then stood the scope up and one of the leads hit the SMPS.  Ouch!

I got insanely lucky and got it new for $255 from Amazon during an old stock clearance.  So I was diligently working on reverse engineering the header, software update process, etc.

My initial goal was simply to crack the UI open so I could fix a bunch of bugs.  But I'd also set up to develop FPGA IP for the Zynq on a Zybo Z-7 board.  Goal was to develop open source FW for Zynq based DSOs.  They have to be very similar so over the course of a couple of years one ought to be able to completely replace the OEM FW on any Zynq based DSO.  Almost certainly not exactly the same, but no worse than dealing with different MMUs used with different CPUs.

If I get a replacement main board for the GDS-2072E I'll use the dead board to reverse engineer the ADC and Zynq wiring.

Has anyone investigated the USB port to see if one can get access via that?  I just learned about these recently.  I've watched a couple of reviews by Dave and another chap, but not read through all the posts here.

Have Fun!
Reg
 

Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #197 on: July 18, 2020, 07:55:08 pm »
Has anyone investigated the USB port to see if one can get access via that?  I just learned about these recently.  I've watched a couple of reviews by Dave and another chap, but not read through all the posts here.

The USB port is handled by the Allwinner SOC, and it can work in both host and peripheral mode. I don't know if there's a way to upgrade the firmware directly by copying a file to the USB disk it creates when connected to a computer. If we get our hands on a dump of the firmware we could find it out.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #198 on: July 18, 2020, 08:09:44 pm »
I'll send $20 US via PayPal to the first person to post a FW dump.

Have Fun!
Reg
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #199 on: July 18, 2020, 08:27:48 pm »
Hi,

Ordered a fnirsi too, should arrive on monday (amazon).
The only reason is to measure the update rate of my scope.
After this, maybe it could be useful for something else.
Can try to read out the winbond chip too, as I got a tl866 here.

Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #200 on: July 18, 2020, 09:52:46 pm »
Here are some results of my testing bandwidth in X1 mode using alligator clips:

10kHz reference (5.04 Vpp):


1 MHz (4.99 Vpp -0.087 dB)


10 MHz (5.39 Vpp +0.58 dB)


20 MHz (4.99 Vpp -0.087 dB)


30 MHz (4.36 Vpp -1.26 dB)


34 MHz (3.47 Vpp -3.24 dB)


So, there it is -3 dB @ 33 to 34 MHz with alligator clips! Not too shabby,,,

Note that the square-wave on CH2 (X1 mode via a 50 Ω patch cable) turned to crap at > 10 MHz, which actually validates the 30+ MHz bandwidth...



« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 10:22:18 pm by cliffyk »
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Offline rhb

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #201 on: July 18, 2020, 10:50:18 pm »
If you can go higher please plot values for a sine wave as I did today in the Rigol DS1202Z-E thread.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1202z-e-entry-level-scope-(200mhz-2-channel)/msg3143092/#msg3143092

That will give a much better idea of the usable BW.  For a lot of uses such as HF RF work they seem to be pretty viable even with the attenuation and aliasing at higher frequencies.

Have Fun!
Reg
 

Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #202 on: July 18, 2020, 11:19:01 pm »
If you can go higher please plot values for a sine wave as I did today in the Rigol DS1202Z-E thread.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1202z-e-entry-level-scope-(200mhz-2-channel)/msg3143092/#msg3143092

That will give a much better idea of the usable BW.  For a lot of uses such as HF RF work they seem to be pretty viable even with the attenuation and aliasing at higher frequencies.

Have Fun!
Reg

My current signal sources (other than my pirate FM station) max out at 60 MHz. Pushing the ADS1013D beyond the 34 MHz I posted just revealed further and relatively linear attenuation (which I view as "a good thing"). It's response does run up (peak) a bit between 10 and 20 MHz, but < 1.0 dB max--comes back down ∼ 22 MHz.

Although, and as I posted in a bulleted list earlier, when using the X10 mode and the supplied HF probe I could "adjust" the probe compensation to create all sorts of peaky responses using pretty solid 25 MHz square-waves. These peaky responses varied with each vertical sensitivity setting making them just useless abnormalities. I think in general the X10 mode in this device is worthless...

 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 11:46:30 pm by cliffyk »
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Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #203 on: July 19, 2020, 06:00:58 am »
Hey, I just worked out how to turn off the auto triggering level. It's in the system menu  |O This scope just got a lot better  :-+

The menu system is weird.  It's also where you set / unset the FFT function.  A somewhat bizarre FFT, too...

Did you figure out the fast/slow setting near the top that changes responsiveness to the (single-point) screen movement?  The single-tap on the left or right on screen to alter the time-base.  (I could not figure this out for ages... gah!)

It has very basic functionality and works adequately within those limitations.  The vertical accuracy on mine is way off, though, so you should check that against something else if you intend on believing what it claims.
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #204 on: July 19, 2020, 06:48:42 am »
34 MHz (3.47 Vpp -3.24 dB)


So, there it is -3 dB @ 33 to 34 MHz with alligator clips! Not too shabby,,,

Note that the square-wave on CH2 (X1 mode via a 50 Ω patch cable) turned to crap at > 10 MHz, which actually validates the 30+ MHz bandwidth...

My results seemed a little better: this is 3 Vpp at 50 kHz and 50 MHz, ~2.3 dB down.  I was using a calibrator with active heads directly attached to this instrument, though.





Cabling can cause lots of degradation, and alligator clips is not ideal for high frequency.

Edit: can't math properly.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 06:51:28 am by boggis the cat »
 

Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #205 on: July 19, 2020, 08:09:46 am »
Hey, I just worked out how to turn off the auto triggering level. It's in the system menu  |O This scope just got a lot better  :-+

The menu system is weird.  It's also where you set / unset the FFT function.  A somewhat bizarre FFT, too...

Did you figure out the fast/slow setting near the top that changes responsiveness to the (single-point) screen movement?  The single-tap on the left or right on screen to alter the time-base.  (I could not figure this out for ages... gah!)

It has very basic functionality and works adequately within those limitations.  The vertical accuracy on mine is way off, though, so you should check that against something else if you intend on believing what it claims.

My first 'scope was a Bell & Howell Model 34 recurrent sweep monstrosity I got for Christmas when I was 10 or 11 (1956 or '57; I wanted so badly to "see" electricity and my parents indulged me). It came from a local junk/pawn shop, and maybe cost $5--likely pawned by someone who got a VA "TV Repair" grant.

Because of that harrowing experience and years of experience with analog 'scopes I have never considered vertical accuracy to be worth a damn and rarely consider it as other than a rough indicator of what's going on.

It is not possible for an  8-bit digital scope to have especially good vertical accuracy anyway--I have access to a Lecroy Waverunner 204 Xi. it's vertical accuracy spec is  ±1.5% (Of full scale); same as my WaveJet 322...

The digital readouts displaying hundredths of a volt are total eyewash...





« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 08:56:04 am by cliffyk »
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Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #206 on: July 19, 2020, 08:12:26 am »

My results seemed a little better: this is 3 Vpp at 50 kHz and 50 MHz, ~2.3 dB down.  I was using a calibrator with active heads directly Cabling can cause lots of degradation, and alligator clips is not ideal for high frequency.


Yeah, I was deliberately presenting it with a worst-case scenario...
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Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #207 on: July 19, 2020, 08:44:53 am »
Something I just ran across, there is no triggered sweep at slower than 10 ms/division--that could be a deal breaker for me.

According to the manual it's not supposed to go into "scroll mode" 'til 100 ms/div, but at 20 ms/div the trigger position and level indicators go away and it devolves into some recurrent sweep sort of mode...
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 08:54:51 am by cliffyk »
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #208 on: July 19, 2020, 09:27:30 am »
I'll send $20 US via PayPal to the first person to post a FW dump.

There you go, a FW dump:

[attachurl=1]

Paypal: me@my.com
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #209 on: July 19, 2020, 09:49:26 am »


Ohh, so the "3ns rise time" looks more like "30ns rise time", LOL. What a waste. It's a pity because @200MSps that could look much much better with a decent front end. Maybe the software of this one is the least of the problems.

Can anybody post a "dots" display mode of that WF, so we can count the dots?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 09:56:08 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #210 on: July 19, 2020, 11:10:10 am »
Ohh, so the "3ns rise time" looks more like "30ns rise time", LOL. What a waste. It's a pity because @200MSps that could look much much better with a decent front end. Maybe the software of this one is the least of the problems.

That's what we're figuring out.

So far it seems like the capacitance in a 1x probe compensates for the front end and makes it a workable 30MHz 'scope (low pass filter).

The nest step would be to work out the ideal capacitance (for max bandwidth), add a capacitor internally, go back to using 10x probes.

This fix would mean you can place a lot more trust in what's on-screen. If it's 30Mhz then 30Mhz it is. There's nothing wrong with that at this price and with 200MSamples/sec you get a decent bandwidth:sample rate ratio.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 11:14:51 am by Fungus »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #211 on: July 19, 2020, 11:42:42 am »


Ohh, so the "3ns rise time" looks more like "30ns rise time", LOL. What a waste. It's a pity because @200MSps that could look much much better with a decent front end. Maybe the software of this one is the least of the problems.

Can anybody post a "dots" display mode of that WF, so we can count the dots?

With my old but experienced eyes risetime looks more like 17ns than 30ns.
with 200MSa/s it have in this image 10 samples per div, 3.4sample in 10-90% rise time.



Roughly we can say what is needed realtime single shot sampling speed for measure rising time in signal under measure (rtum). (when analog BW is "enough").
Result is MSa/s
5000/rtum for quite accurate risetime measurements
3500/rtum for medium quality measurements
1750/rtum for only poor accuracy measurement or "looking around for fun"
1250/rtum very poor accuracy, useless for measurements

Old demonstrations for some tiny teaching purposes

1.25s for edge rising time (10 - 90%)


1.75s for edge rising time


3.5s for edge risetime(still there can see 10 and 90% points have some time jitter for risetime measurements purposes

No image for 5s for edge. There is no sampling interval based errors when mesurement are specified for 10 and 90%.


just for thinking.

------------------------------------
Personally I can not understand at all why so small amount of noise and ranting is about this "1GSa/s  100MHz" total hoax - fraud. Totally shameful outrageous scam if it is just as in Dave's video and HW is like displayed and if it is true what ADC there is. Also some tests support the assumption that there is max 200MSa/s.
Here in China I can see it selling in many places, example Jingdong, also Tmall/Taobao and all these claim they have quite tight rules for scams.  How long they can continue this hoax. Everywhere they advertise it 100MHz oscilloscope with 1GSa/s samplerate.  Why peoples accept it. Example here in China is quite strong customer protection system IF customers know how to use it. But looks more like "who knows...who cares".  This kind of business peoples do not think anything but what is money coming today to pocket and after soon they hide and escape and start some other hoax. Why they do not sell chickens. There is less numerical specifications what can easy check and test. Only need take the stones out from stomach before weighing and tell final price.

If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Online UniSoft

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #212 on: July 19, 2020, 12:17:17 pm »
Would you mind dumping the winbond SPI flash and posting it here?
attached...

You'll need a CH341A (preferred)...
This is totally shit programmer...
I bought EZP2019+... Each reading get different result...
After that order SP16-B (www.sofi-tech.com) this one read stable.
 
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Offline rhb

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #213 on: July 19, 2020, 12:54:40 pm »
Here are the horizontal and vertical settings from the FW image:

Vertical settings:

5V/div
2.5V/div
500mV/div
200mV/div
100mV/div
50mV/div
25V/div
10V/div
2V/div
1V/div
500V/div
250V/div
100V/div
50V/div
20V/div

Horizontal settings:

50S/div
20S/div
10S/div
5S/div
2S/div
1S/div
500mS/div
200mS/div
100mS/div
50mS/div
20mS/div
10mS/div
5mS/div
2mS/div
1mS/div
500uS/div
200uS/div
100uS/div
50uS/div
20uS/div
10uS/div
5uS/div
2uS/div
1uS/div
500nS/div
250nS/div
100nS/div
50nS/div
25nS/div
10nS/div

Apparently 4 rebranders:

UTX-1013.bin
FSI-1013.bin
YPK-1013.bin
DAN-1013.bin

It appears to be an AD9288:

AD9288
AD9288_1
AD9288_2
AD9288_1_2

I'm guessing that the last is a reference to merging all 4 channels into one. So there may be variants which implement that.

Does anyone have a disassembler for the chip?  If the compiler doesn't do a lot of optimization then it might be possible to write C code from reading the disassembly and incrementally start reverse engineering source code for it.

Have Fun!
Reg
 

Online UniSoft

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #214 on: July 19, 2020, 01:18:40 pm »
It appears to be an AD9288:
Yep, I said it before...

I'm guessing that the last is a reference to merging all 4 channels into one. So there may be variants which implement that.
They don't have hardware support to merge all 4 channels into one...

Does anyone have a disassembler for the chip?
IDA Pro, Ghidra... it is ARM9 core
 

Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #215 on: July 19, 2020, 02:01:02 pm »


Ohh, so the "3ns rise time" looks more like "30ns rise time", LOL. What a waste. It's a pity because @200MSps that could look much much better with a decent front end. Maybe the software of this one is the least of the problems.

Can anybody post a "dots" display mode of that WF, so we can count the dots?

It does not have a "raw point" display mode, only interpolated x/sin(x) "vector" mode....
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #216 on: July 19, 2020, 02:02:47 pm »
Personally I can not understand at all why so small amount of noise and ranting is about this "1GSa/s  100MHz" total hoax - fraud. Totally shameful outrageous scam if it is just as in Dave's video and HW is like displayed and if it is true what ADC there is.

Are you in a position to do anything about it?

We're busy hacking it into something useful.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #217 on: July 19, 2020, 02:04:03 pm »
Does anyone have a disassembler for the chip?
IDA Pro, Ghidra... it is ARM9 core

The main chip is this:

https://linux-sunxi.org/images/b/ba/F1C100s_Datasheet_V1.0.pdf

ARM9 with built-in display controller.

 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #218 on: July 19, 2020, 02:31:01 pm »
Code: [Select]
0030ba0: f001 bde8 0000 a0e3 0082 bde8 1cd0 8de2  ................
0030bb0: f001 bde8 0100 a0e3 0082 bde8 0060 7380  .............`s.
0030bc0: 01ff ff00 01ff ff80 7377 6974 6368 2069  ........switch i
0030bd0: 6e74 6f20 6869 6768 2073 7065 6564 206d  nto high speed m
0030be0: 6f64 6520 2121 210d 0a00 0000 04e0 2de5  ode !!!.......-.
0030bf0: 8bdf 4de2 0120 a0e3 ac10 8fe2 0d00 a0e1  ..M.. ..........

Any idea what's that?

Code: [Select]
004d330: e13f a0e3 b0c0 d0e1 9b00 5ce3 1900 009a  .?........\.....
004d340: 0110 81e2 0c20 82e0 0118 c1e3 1800 00ea  ..... ..........
004d350: ccaf 1880 506c 6561 7365 2069 6e73 6572  ....Please inser
004d360: 7420 7465 7374 2063 6c69 7020 616e 6420  t test clip and
004d370: 7072 6573 7320 4f4b 2074 6f20 636f 6e74  press OK to cont
004d380: 696e 7565 2021 0000 9ced 1880 5901 0000  inue !......Y...
004d390: 4f4b 0000 7227 1980 58cd 1980 02b8 1a80  OK..r'..X.......
004d3a0: cdcc 0000 72cf 1a80 0180 8be2 0ca0 8ae0  ....r...........
004d3b0: 01b8 c8e3 0130 53e2 0200 80e2 dcff ff1a  .....0S.........

And this?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 02:50:48 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Online tv84

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #219 on: July 19, 2020, 02:36:12 pm »
Who assured that the FW is only the SPI mem contents?

It only has a bootloader, a small app and a bitmap...   ::)

I only opened it with a hex-editor but I think something is missing...
 

Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #220 on: July 19, 2020, 02:41:17 pm »
attached...

Thanks! It looks like it's not Linux in this case. But can be easily ported!

This is totally shit programmer...

It works fine for me! I used it in different situations, bios flash, firmware dump, etc and never had any problems :)
 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #221 on: July 19, 2020, 02:43:10 pm »
I realized that Dave thought it was an AD9288, but the chips had been sanded off.  My point was confirmation from the binary image.

Does anyone recognize the filesystem?  It doesn't appear to be UBI which is the only flash filesystem I have any familiarity with, and that is *very* little.

There's a string "F1C100S  XiaoTaoQi  Disk 1.0 " but a search with google didn't turn anything up other than a translation to "Rascal Disk 1.0".

There are these strings:

/pic_system.sys
/piclist.sys
/wave_system.sys
/wavelist.sys
eGON.BMP
eGON.EXE

If we can mount the filesystem we should be able to start disassembling the code and making variable maps to identify major sections of the code.

Have Fun!
Reg

 

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #222 on: July 19, 2020, 02:44:14 pm »
Who assured that the FW is only the SPI mem contents?

The F1C100s has no internal memory, only RAM, so it must be in flash. Normally they run Linux, but in this case they must be using something else (somebody suggested XBoot paired with other software). It makes sense as the flash chip is only 2MB, Linux won't fit in there.
 

Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #223 on: July 19, 2020, 02:48:09 pm »
I realized that Dave thought it was an AD9288, but the chips had been sanded off.  My point was confirmation from the binary image.

Does anyone recognize the filesystem?  It doesn't appear to be UBI which is the only flash filesystem I have any familiarity with, and that is *very* little.


I've tried Binwalk and it's not recognizing anything from the binary... We'll have to do some more research...
 

Online tv84

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #224 on: July 19, 2020, 02:52:00 pm »
"F1C100S  XiaoTaoQi  Disk 1.0" inside.

https://linux-sunxi.org/images/b/ba/F1C100s_Datasheet_V1.0.pdf

There is a big part that looks obfuscated (starting around offset 0x184C80).
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #225 on: July 19, 2020, 02:53:07 pm »
Does it come with an SDCard or is the SD slot empty?
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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #226 on: July 19, 2020, 02:55:27 pm »
Does it come with an SDCard or is the SD slot empty?

It comes with a 2GB SDCard I think.
 

Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #227 on: July 19, 2020, 02:59:06 pm »
"F1C100S  XiaoTaoQi  Disk 1.0" inside.

I was just thinking. This could be part of the USB descriptor table. When you plug it in to a PC, it shows up as a USB drive. Anyone with the scope can check it on device manager.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #228 on: July 19, 2020, 02:59:41 pm »
pic_system.sys appears to be a touchscreen library by a company call JuTouch.  The server doesn't seem to be accessible, but google had this cached:

Comprehensive system support. Supporting wide variety of operating systems (Linux, Windows, IOS, and Android). pic_system. About JuTouch

Haven't found anything else that looks likely for the other stuff.  It's obviously not a quantum computer nor a video game.  piclist.sys did produce a hit on a Chinese Python library but google translate just briefly showed it in Chinese and then blanked the screen.  I think it's an OCR library though.
 

Online tv84

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #229 on: July 19, 2020, 03:00:34 pm »
The F1C100s has no internal memory, only RAM, so it must be in flash. Normally they run Linux, but in this case they must be using something else (somebody suggested XBoot paired with other software). It makes sense as the flash chip is only 2MB, Linux won't fit in there.

So it's a F1C100 proc with all the FW in the SPI mem.

There is no filesystem, outside the SD Card. There is only an app launched by the secondary bootloader (SPL block).

They simplified also by not having to deal with FW upgrades...
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #230 on: July 19, 2020, 03:00:58 pm »
Does it come with an SDCard or is the SD slot empty?
It comes with a 2GB SDCard I think.

Might as well be booting from there, then, no?
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Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #231 on: July 19, 2020, 03:02:43 pm »
Personally I can not understand at all why so small amount of noise and ranting is about this "1GSa/s  100MHz" total hoax - fraud. Totally shameful outrageous scam if it is just as in Dave's video and HW is like displayed and if it is true what ADC there is.

Are you in a position to do anything about it?

We're busy hacking it into something useful.

I have written scathing reviews on Amazon, for both the product and the vendors of this and the "bar of soap" ADS 5012 model, however they do not seem to care. Yeapook is a brand name of Shenzhen Yipu Commercial and Trading Co., Ltd however I have not been able to determine if they are indeed the manufacturer of this device. The only contact info I have found is their snail-mail address.

As far as I can determine there is no online support for the product. I have contacted the vendor fom whom i purchased it (Ccfoud-US via Amazon) but have had no response. It was however a "fulfilled by Amazon"item so it can go back if I find it to not meet even my modest needs.

We'll see...

I have also determined that there is no triggered operation at sweeps slower than 10 ms/div. The scroll mode does work at 100ms/div and slower but it is just a non-triggered unsynchronized repetitive left to right sweep that would be of little to no use capturing aperiodic single-shot events unless you were to continuously monitor it and manually stop the capture when you "got one; and IF the event does not occur during the "retrace" period.

To be fair, my Hantek DSO1062B also does not have triggered operation in "scroll mode". The Lecroy WJ 322 does. but that's a $2000 instrument.

It is still "as cute as a bug's ear", but it may be going back...
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 03:09:34 pm by cliffyk »
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Offline rhb

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #232 on: July 19, 2020, 03:03:58 pm »
"F1C100S  XiaoTaoQi  Disk 1.0" inside.

https://linux-sunxi.org/images/b/ba/F1C100s_Datasheet_V1.0.pdf

There is a big part that looks obfuscated (starting around offset 0x184C80).

I did not find the string in the datasheet.  The apparently obfuscated part may be the FPGA bitstream.  However, there is a string "Encrypt" in the image.

 

Offline cliffyk

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #233 on: July 19, 2020, 03:05:02 pm »
Does it come with an SDCard or is the SD slot empty?

It comes with a 2GB SDCard I think.

Mine came with a SanDisk 1 GB card...
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Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #234 on: July 19, 2020, 03:06:15 pm »
It comes with a 2GB SDCard I think.

Might as well be booting from there, then, no?

I still don't have the scope with me, but I did read somewhere that the SDCard only contained the screenshots and saved data.
 

Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #235 on: July 19, 2020, 03:08:32 pm »
The F1C200s is the same as F1C100s, but with double the RAM. All the registers are the same, so this user manual applies to our chip too:
https://www.thirtythreeforty.net/posts/2020/02/trying-the-allwinner-f1c200s/Allwinner_F1C200s_User_Manual_V1.1.pdf

It contains all the CPU and Peripherals registers and descriptions about them. Might be useful to use with Ghidra.
 

Online tv84

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #236 on: July 19, 2020, 03:09:43 pm »
I did not find the string in the datasheet.  The apparently obfuscated part may be the FPGA bitstream.  However, there is a string "Encrypt" in the image.

Reg, the string is in the FW. Some guys call "encrypt" to simple obfuscation methods. The pattern that I refer to doesn't seem to be a "standard" encryption output. But...

Yes, I also noticed that there is no "clear" FPGA block in the FW.

Does the scope have any FPGA? Which?
 

Online tv84

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #237 on: July 19, 2020, 03:11:04 pm »
The F1C200s is the same as F1C100s, but with double the RAM. All the registers are the same, so this user manual applies to our chip too:
https://www.thirtythreeforty.net/posts/2020/02/trying-the-allwinner-f1c200s/Allwinner_F1C200s_User_Manual_V1.1.pdf

It contains all the CPU and Peripherals registers and descriptions about them. Might be useful to use with Ghidra.

https://linux-sunxi.org/F1C100s

http://www.allwinnertech.com/index.php?c=product&a=index&id=73

Allwinner's in-house operating system Melis 2.00

This guy managed to insert linux OS on a machine running Melis OS (and with a Allwinner F1C500S chip).
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 03:23:17 pm by tv84 »
 
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #238 on: July 19, 2020, 03:13:01 pm »
Does it come with an SDCard or is the SD slot empty?

It comes with a 2GB SDCard I think.

Mine came with a SanDisk 1 GB card...

Does it boot w/o the card? Can you have a look and tell us what's in the card? Ideally, partitions, filesystem types, and start blocks too :-)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 03:15:00 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Online tv84

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #239 on: July 19, 2020, 03:14:14 pm »
Does it boot w/o the card? Can you have a look and tell us what's in the card?

It has to. The card is extra.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #240 on: July 19, 2020, 03:16:15 pm »
The FPGA is an Altera part, but I don't recall the version from Dave's video.

I found this in the image at two different locations.  Does anyone recognize the byte pattern?

rhb@Hipster:/export/home/rhb/Downloads/fnirsi$ head bb bbb
==> bb <==
0060000 006  \0  \0 352   e   G   O   N   .   E   X   E  \0  \0  \0  \0
0060020  \0   t  \0  \0   E   X   E   C  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0
0060040 333 360   ! 343   X   П  ** 345 327 360   ! 343   T   П  ** 345
0060060 322 360   ! 343   P   П  ** 345 321 360   ! 343   L   П  ** 345
0060100 337 360   ! 343   H   П  ** 345 323 360   ! 343   D   П  ** 345
0060120 020 017 021 356 002  \n 300 343 020 017 001 356   8  \0 237 345
0060140 020   / 021 356 002   * 022 342  \0 020 240 003   , 020 237 025

==> bbb <==
0470000 006  \0  \0 352   e   G   O   N   .   E   X   E  \0  \0  \0  \0
0470020  \0   2 031  \0   E   X   E   C  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0  \0
0470040 333 360   ! 343   X   П  ** 345 327 360   ! 343   T   П  ** 345
0470060 322 360   ! 343   P   П  ** 345 321 360   ! 343   L   П  ** 345
0470100 337 360   ! 343   H   П  ** 345 323 360   ! 343   D   П  ** 345
0470120 020 017 021 356 002  \n 300 343 020 017 001 356   8  \0 237 345
0470140 020   / 021 356 002   * 022 342  \0 020 240 003   , 020 237 025

 

Online tv84

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #241 on: July 19, 2020, 03:19:08 pm »
It has 4 blocks:

00000000 - SPL (secondary bootloader)
00006000 - 1st executable (OS part that deals with the SD card)
00013000 - bitmap
00027000 - 2nd executable (main app)

My best guesses ATM.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 03:28:38 pm by tv84 »
 
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Offline rhb

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #242 on: July 19, 2020, 03:36:17 pm »
It has 4 blocks:

00000000 - SPL (secondary bootloader)
00006000 - 1st executable (OS part that deals with the SD card)
00013000 - bitmap
00027000 - 2nd executable (main app)

My best guesses ATM.

ATM?  I shudder to think what google will return for that.  Can you explain?
 

Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #243 on: July 19, 2020, 03:37:08 pm »
Function at 0x00042830 seems to be an init/hardware check function. It calls a function related to the FPGA, which if it fails, prints "FPGA Failed" through the serial port or some sort of log file.
 

Offline iscle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #244 on: July 19, 2020, 03:38:41 pm »
It has 4 blocks:

00000000 - SPL (secondary bootloader)
00006000 - 1st executable (OS part that deals with the SD card)
00013000 - bitmap
00027000 - 2nd executable (main app)

My best guesses ATM.

ATM?  I shudder to think what google will return for that.  Can you explain?

ATM = At The Moment ;P
 
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Online UniSoft

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #245 on: July 19, 2020, 03:38:52 pm »
...I think something is missing...
Something what? there is no another flash... that is a full dump of SPI flash...

Does anyone recognize the filesystem?
this is a plain binary file... not filesystem...
at start executing standard initialization... stack pointers for different modes... initializing ram.. etc

There is a big part that looks obfuscated (starting around offset 0x184C80).
it is not obfuscated... it is some table... note values coming in ascending order.
it looks more as a map, unicode characters conversion table.
 

Online tv84

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