Author Topic: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope  (Read 33946 times)

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Offline gfmucci

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2020, 07:34:28 pm »
I just received  my ADS1013D from Banggood.

I consider it as a very valuable piece of equipment, and a real oscilloscope with  a huge advantage over
my previous oscilloscopes
[bold added]  ( I have many anchor boats and a recent  rigol 1054Z)

Certainly not on par with your Rigol 1054Z, right? https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/

What will be the circumstances/types of testing with your new ADS1013D that you would not use the Rigol for?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #76 on: May 27, 2020, 07:40:13 pm »
You will have access only to the beginning part ( which is what you asked for).

That's OK for me. In fact it's good that the origin (ie. 0Hz) stays fixed at the left side of the screen.

The other big thing that bothers me is the lack of vertical scale and no visible noise floor. I'd like to have some idea of signal:noise ratio.

Certainly not on par with your Rigol 1054Z, right?
What will be the circumstances/types of testing with your new ADS1013D that you would not use the Rigol for?

a) The FFT on the Rigol is awful. I don't particularly care because I have another gadget for that but FFT is the Rigol's Achilles Heel.
b) I was thinking of using this for recording videos. A 'scope with a  7" screen that lies flat on the bench seems ideal for use with an overhead camera but the Rigol shape/size simply doesn't work, especially with the mains plug sticking out of the back.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 08:05:51 pm by Fungus »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #77 on: May 27, 2020, 08:53:22 pm »
@nctnico

There is also the category of tools

 4) Cheap, not full featured, but fulfill your needs.
That IS category 1.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline AlcidePiR2

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #78 on: May 27, 2020, 09:31:19 pm »
Certainly not on par with your Rigol 1054Z, right? https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/
No, the Rigol is far superior in performance from what I have measured

rising time in Rigol is about 4 ns ( real 100 Mhz) vs  about 12 ns for the ADS1013D.

Quote
What will be the circumstances/types of testing with your new ADS1013D that you would not use the Rigol for?

I have a dozen of scopes.  Most of them are anchor boats that I have repaired. The most powerfull in term of bandwidth is a TDS 460 
with a rising time of  1.3 ns  ( Bandwidth of 350 Mhz).

The ones I use the most often are now the Rigol1054 because of all his features and 4 channels, but also the TDS220 black and white with only two channels, but which
has no fan and thus makes no noise. This is important for me. In fact, now I use more the TDS220 than the Rigol.

The circumstances I would use rather the ADS1013 is any time  I will test something  outside from my bench.

I had to test the signal of an alarm system, on the top of a ladder. This is certainly where the ADS1013 would be welcome.

Same for anything in the car.
 

Offline AlcidePiR2

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #79 on: May 27, 2020, 09:34:04 pm »
@nctnico

There is also the category of tools

 4) Cheap, not full featured, but fulfills your needs.
That IS category 1.

In this case, we agree.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 09:47:15 pm by AlcidePiR2 »
 

Offline gfmucci

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2020, 03:06:47 pm »
Well, after considerable consternating and other assorted deliberations, I went with the Hantek 5072P.  http://www.hantek.com/en/productdetail_97.html

Why?

1. Traditional user interface.  Better to relate to the numerous teaching videos for a noob.  And old people prefer knobs, which is what I am - an old person, (not a knob.)  This noob likes knobs.  Kind of catchy.

2. Changing functions on the touch screen blanks out what is being measured, or so it appears on the videos and photos. Not so with the knobby interface.

3. The Hantek is more likely to achieve its bandwidth spec, and other specs, which may be ~double the touchscreen bunch.

4.  If I croak before my wife does, the traditional knobby layout is likely to be easier to sell - or it will at least be easier to identify what the device is.

5.  I don't anticipate any need for portability.  It stays on the bench.

6.  I reviewed the Hantek's 72 page manual which seems quite helpful. Haven't seen the Frinsi or equiv. manual online.

As an aside, Ali Express sells this for less than Amazon, but their shipping cost is $50+, which makes it $35 >Amazon.

If the touchscreen O-scope is a "semi-accurate, semi-"toy" useful for some things" device, then the Hantek is a "low end, utilitarian, slightly more accurate, useful for a few more things" device.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 03:41:10 pm by gfmucci »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #81 on: May 28, 2020, 04:01:13 pm »
Well, after considerable consternating and other assorted deliberations, I went with the Hantek 5072P.  http://www.hantek.com/en/productdetail_97.html

Sure. It's horses for courses.

My own interest in this "toy" is more because of form factor and portability than its measuring ability.

 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #82 on: May 29, 2020, 08:07:43 am »
My own interest in this "toy" is more because of form factor and portability than its measuring ability.

The FFT function seems very dubious to me.  I am not sure how they're deriving it, but the weird 'foldback' artefacts it produced (shown in my screen-grabs) are spurious.

If that's important to you, then this is probably not suitable.  More testing would be required to figure out what it is doing, and the limitations.

I haven't got a clean enough known signal source to really test the FFT function.  Nothing in the lab is sufficient, and my 'FeelElec' is not the most accurate of instruments.  (It has interesting aliasing issues which appear to be timebase related.  Assuming that my Siglent 'scope isn't the culprit, which I feel safe on.)

Also, no response from FNIRSI concerning this device and my query about adjustment.
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #83 on: May 29, 2020, 01:23:50 pm »
The FFT function seems very dubious to me.  I am not sure how they're deriving it, but the weird 'foldback' artefacts it produced (shown in my screen-grabs) are spurious.

If that's important to you, then this is probably not suitable.  More testing would be required to figure out what it is doing, and the limitations.

Yes, I'm going to pass on this.  I'll wait for the next generation or save up for an Analog Discovery 2 instead.

My ancient DSO Quad has a tiny screen but the FFT is an order of magnitude better (actually quite awesome because of high update rate, labelling of peaks, etc).

FFT is the green overlay, it's showing the cyan trace which has four harmonics in it:

[attachimg=1]




« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 11:12:00 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline AlcidePiR2

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #84 on: May 29, 2020, 05:41:28 pm »
Yes, this looks better that the FFT of the ADS1013D.

There is no labels on the ADS1013D, and the scales are difficult to adjust. It can only be used marginally.
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #85 on: May 31, 2020, 05:16:15 am »
There is no labels on the ADS1013D, and the scales are difficult to adjust. It can only be used marginally.

It's a 'basic' instrument.

The built-in 'Measurements' appear to be correct, and the cursors work, but it's all quite limited.

A modern 'real' oscilloscope (Siglent and Rigol are probably fine low-cost options) is a better bet if you want a more flexible instrument.  Siglent make hand-held 'scopes, too, if that is a requirement.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #86 on: May 31, 2020, 05:28:55 am »
It's a 'basic' instrument.

Yes, we get that. I was more interested in the form factor + price.

A modern 'real' oscilloscope (Siglent and Rigol are probably fine low-cost options) is a better bet if you want a more flexible instrument.

The FFT on both of those is horrible. Within its bandwidth limits I dare say my "toy" DSO Quad is better.

Siglent make hand-held 'scopes, too, if that is a requirement.

If I was after a "real" scope in this form factor I'd be looking at a Micsig.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #87 on: May 31, 2020, 05:36:29 am »
A modern 'real' oscilloscope (Siglent and Rigol are probably fine low-cost options) is a better bet if you want a more flexible instrument.

The FFT on both of those is horrible.
Yes we all know the low cost Rigol FFT is poor but an equivalent Siglent X-E ?
Nope, that's how a cheap DSO FFT should be, a proper implementation of a cheap spectrum analyser.
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #88 on: May 31, 2020, 05:56:46 am »
Yes we all know the low cost Rigol FFT is poor but an equivalent Siglent X-E ?

I'm just looking at the horrible FFT, awful laggy controls and slow update rate shown in this video (skip to 4:00):



It doesn't look like much of a step up from the Rigol to me.  :-//



eg. At 4:30 he's showing a single sine wave, shouldn't the 'scope be showing a horizontal noise floor with a single vertical spike?

[attachimg=1]

My DSO Quad can manage it:

[attachimg=2]

It updates the FFT at 30 fps, too, not the 1 fps of the Siglent.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 08:07:01 am by Fungus »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #89 on: May 31, 2020, 08:06:02 am »
Yes we all know the low cost Rigol FFT is poor but an equivalent Siglent X-E ?

I'm just looking at the horrible FFT, awful laggy controls and slow update rate shown in this video:



(skip to 4:00)

It doesn't look like much of a step up from the Rigol to me.  :-//


eg. At 4:30 he's showing a single sine wave, shouldn't the 'scope be showing a horizontal noise floor with a single vertical spike?

[attachimg=1]

My DSO Quad can manage it. It updates the FFT overlay at 30 fps, too, not the 1 fps of the Siglent.

[attachimg=2]
::)
You know better than to judge an instrument from a 2 year old video, really !  :=\
One glance at the UI and I know it's operating with very old FW and after watching the whole video it's obvious how much better the results would be with the features that have since been added.

So you bought a DSO Quad to supplement the FFT that your Rigol can't do ?  :-DD
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #90 on: May 31, 2020, 08:14:15 am »
One glance at the UI and I know it's operating with very old FW and after watching the whole video it's obvious how much better the results would be with the features that have since been added.

Video? Screenshots? I'm having trouble finding any. Let's see the new frame rates, etc.

Let's see if they've managed to get it up to the level of a DSO Quad.

So you bought a DSO Quad to supplement the FFT that your Rigol can't do ?  :-DD

No, I had the DSO Quad for a couple of years before I got my Rigol.

 

Offline tautech

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #91 on: May 31, 2020, 08:28:18 am »
One glance at the UI and I know it's operating with very old FW and after watching the whole video it's obvious how much better the results would be with the features that have since been added.

Video? Screenshots? I'm having trouble finding any. Let's see the new frame rates, etc.

Let's see if they've managed to get it up to the level of a DSO Quad.
From 6.45. Also with old firmware but from a guy that knows how to drive Siglent X-E FFT.  :phew:
That this is the 4ch X-E makes no difference, SDS1202X-E FFT is exactly the same.

https://youtu.be/Cwbwq-AKbPc?t=405
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #92 on: May 31, 2020, 12:06:42 pm »
From 6.45. Also with old firmware but from a guy that knows how to drive Siglent X-E FFT.  :phew:

OK, so with the latest firmware a good "driver" can achieve a similar update rate to a DSO Quad by reducing the memory depth to 2.8kpts and the FFT to 2048 points. Got it.

[attachimg=1]

Even so, he couldn't sort out the sloping noise floor or the weird cone shaped "peaks".

Maybe you should start slipping DSO Quads into the boxes of all your Siglents as a perk for your customers.  :-DD
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 01:40:03 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2020, 06:37:17 am »
OK, so with the latest firmware a good "driver" can achieve a similar update rate to a DSO Quad by reducing the memory depth to 2.8kpts and the FFT to 2048 points. Got it.

[attachimg=1]

Even so, he couldn't sort out the sloping noise floor or the weird cone shaped "peaks".

This may be an accurate evaluation of the applied signal.  Unless it is a 'perfect' sinewave being presented at the 'scope front end (or close enough to pass, in this case), you should expect some aberrations.  I can check my 1202X-E with a good quality signal from the calibrator here, if you really want an FFT from a 'known' signal.

I have to take some gear in from home tomorrow, anyway.
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2020, 07:59:19 am »
Even so, he couldn't sort out the sloping noise floor or the weird cone shaped "peaks".

This may be an accurate evaluation of the applied signal.

Maybe, but it's not the only place I've seen it, eg. Here's a comparison with a Picoscope:

Picoscope:


Siglent shows the same signal with cone shaped peaks and sloping noise floor:


Images taken from this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/

« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 08:05:10 am by Fungus »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2020, 08:41:14 am »
Going by those this one must be broken  :P

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Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2020, 09:03:57 am »
Images taken from this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/

Did you not notice that there is another example two posts down, with a correct FFT display?

Poor configuration will produce aliasing, so that may be why the post you linked to yields that.

I will try a comparison of my 1013D and 1202X-E tomorrow, if I get the time.  It would be interesting to try to make sense out of what the 1013D is doing.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2020, 09:36:53 am »
 :popcorn:
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2020, 09:59:58 am »
Going by those this one must be broken  :P

Or just zoomed out a lot and half the first peak cropped off to hide it...
[attachimg=1]


PS: What's the frame rate with that many points?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 10:02:00 am by Fungus »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2020, 10:10:25 am »
I've just been looking at the classic FFT comparison video:



Most of the others seem to do something similar to the Siglent with the peaks in that video, although that could be from the source signal. Dave put a distortion in it.

None of the others seem to have a slope in the noise floor though.
 


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