Author Topic: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope  (Read 29339 times)

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Offline Kosmic

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #100 on: June 02, 2020, 12:26:29 pm »
Even so, he couldn't sort out the sloping noise floor or the weird cone shaped "peaks".

This may be an accurate evaluation of the applied signal.

Maybe, but it's not the only place I've seen it, eg. Here's a comparison with a Picoscope:

Picoscope:


Siglent shows the same signal with cone shaped peaks and sloping noise floor:


Images taken from this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-fft-frequency-centering/

FFT Resolution Bandwidth is too low, try increasing capture time.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #101 on: June 02, 2020, 12:41:39 pm »
FFT Resolution Bandwidth is too low, try increasing capture time.
I agree. I'd assume this is a setting somewhere that limits the FFT length; the length of the capture is more than enough.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #102 on: June 03, 2020, 05:31:45 am »
Or just zoomed out a lot and half the first peak cropped off to hide it...

Well then, from your post above, half the PicoScope first peak must be 'cropped off' to hide something...

 ???
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #103 on: June 03, 2020, 05:34:21 am »
Or just zoomed out a lot and half the first peak cropped off to hide it...

Well then, from your post above, half the PicoScope first peak must be 'cropped off' to hide something...

 ???

The Picoscope goes down to zero so there's nothing to hide (unless there's some negative frequencies in there...)
 

Online tunk

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« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 09:57:02 pm by tunk »
 

Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #105 on: June 13, 2020, 08:07:21 pm »
I am amazed by this product. I don't have one, and I will probably not buy one right now. But look at current alternatives (Mini DS203 and DS213). From what I can see in the videos, the touch screen interface is very intuitive and very fast. No comparison to pressing buttons or turning knobs to navigate through menus. In fact, I wonder whether one could not simply build a professional scope (like a Siglent 1202X) with a larger screen and an extended version of such a user interface. Fine tuning could be implemented with sliders that are displayed on demand. Coarse adjustments would continue to be simple touch gestures. This 1013d seems to lack two finger gestures. Using those could yield additional improvement of the touch interface.

The reason I'm not buying the 1013d is that I am thinking about buying a Siglent 1202X-E. It's available though German shops and I will have a more mature product, higher bandwidth, etc.
Another drawback of the 1013d is the battery and the power via USB. Given the rating (5V 2A), it will be hard to find a proper charger. Also, I do not trust the USB charger than comes with it. Better would have been USB PD via USB-C. Then I could have used a notebook USB-C charger or a USB-C PD power bank. 4 hours of usage on battery after charging it for 4 hours is great. Also, having it connected to the power 24/7 while it's standing on my desk seems like a bad idea. The battery will probably suffer, and, as I said, i don't trust the charger. Does it have a mini or micro USB plug?

If you are in Europe and you want to order it anyway: you will find units with shipping from Italy or Spain if you search for "nano1013d" on Aliexpress.



« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 08:22:41 pm by skoehler »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #106 on: June 13, 2020, 09:14:03 pm »
The reason I'm not buying the 1013d is that I am thinking about buying a Siglent 1202X-E. It's available though German shops and I will have a more mature product, higher bandwidth, etc.

Have you seen the Micsig tablets?

Same form factor and touchscreen as a 1013D, more powerful than a Siglent.

https://micsig.aliexpress.com/store/group/Tablet-Oscilloscope/1293611_509734614.html

OK, a bit more expensive than the Siglent but if that's what you're after then it's worth saving up a little bit more.
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2020, 05:14:44 am »
In fact, I wonder whether one could not simply build a professional scope (like a Siglent 1202X) with a larger screen and an extended version of such a user interface. Fine tuning could be implemented with sliders that are displayed on demand. Coarse adjustments would continue to be simple touch gestures. This 1013d seems to lack two finger gestures. Using those could yield additional improvement of the touch interface.

It only has single-point response.  While you could add a lot more in software to something like this, the front end is pretty basic.  50 mV/div minimum to 5 V/div maximum ranging, for example (and my unit certainly doesn't meet the claimed specification).

Quote
The reason I'm not buying the 1013d is that I am thinking about buying a Siglent 1202X-E. It's available though German shops and I will have a more mature product, higher bandwidth, etc.

I have one, and it seems to be a solid, reliable, 'scope (now).  The 1104X-E is worth looking at, too – four-channel, and a bit more competent (nominal bandwidth is lower, but it's likely 'hackable' to 200 MHz easily enough).

Quote
Another drawback of the 1013d is the battery and the power via USB.

It's more of an advantage, really.

Quote
Given the rating (5V 2A), it will be hard to find a proper charger. Also, I do not trust the USB charger than comes with it. Better would have been USB PD via USB-C. Then I could have used a notebook USB-C charger or a USB-C PD power bank. 4 hours of usage on battery after charging it for 4 hours is great. Also, having it connected to the power 24/7 while it's standing on my desk seems like a bad idea. The battery will probably suffer, and, as I said, i don't trust the charger. Does it have a mini or micro USB plug?

Any USB charger will work.  It doesn't have to be 2 A rated.  Even leaving it plugged into a PC USB port charges it.

It uses micro USB, so 2 A is optimistic anyway.
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2020, 05:18:44 am »
Same form factor and touchscreen as a 1013D, more powerful than a Siglent.

I'm not sure about that.  What do they offer over the cheap Siglent bench 'scopes?

I would assume that they're better than Siglent's hand-held 'scope offerings – but I'm not really sure about that, either.

Quote
OK, a bit more expensive than the Siglent but if that's what you're after then it's worth saving up a little bit more.

A good bit more expensive.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2020, 07:02:19 am »
Quote
OK, a bit more expensive than the Siglent but if that's what you're after then it's worth saving up a little bit more.

A good bit more expensive.

No more than the difference between a Siglent and a Rigol.

Siglent owners have no problem telling Rigol owners that the difference is worth every penny, so...  :-//
 
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Offline rlohmann

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #110 on: June 15, 2020, 10:48:41 am »
Hi @AlcidePiR2

I'm still waiting for my unit ... so I'm actually reading and searching for information.

Looking at the pictures, it appears to me that the shielding of the input BNC connectors are actually not grounded.  ???
Could you measure the resistance between the two BNC shieldings?

Btw, looks like your PCB has a slightly different routing.
The FNIRSI units seem to have a more obvious runtime alignment (meander traces) between ADC and FPGA. 

I found in a russian forum the assumption AD9288 are used as ADCs ...  so, the x1013 would have max 200Ms/sec sample rate (in best case).  :o
Maybe probing the ADC-clock (with a second scope) might help to answer that question...

Unfortunately both PCBs does not have the potential 9th and 10th bit traces routed.
Would have been a nice option to replace the 8bit ADCs (AD9288) with a 10bit ADC (AD9218) to somewhat compensate the min 50mV/dev. ;)
Especially while using x10 coupling for higher bandwidth which leads to min 500mV/dev I guess.

One comment/request on the 10MHz measurement you posted to check the rise time. Looks like you did the measurements with x1 coupling, correct?
Could you redo the measurement with x10 coupling? ... guess that will increase the bandwidth and could reduce the rise time.
... never mind, I've just checked the link to puls generator you used ... :D
   
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 10:59:14 am by rlohmann »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #111 on: June 15, 2020, 05:25:03 pm »
Could you measure the resistance between the two BNC shieldings?

I bet it's ~= 0 Ohms...
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Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #112 on: June 15, 2020, 07:00:56 pm »
Looking at the pictures, it appears to me that the shielding of the input BNC connectors are actually not grounded.  ???

They must be connected to something, or the 'scope won't work.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 07:02:51 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline rlohmann

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #113 on: June 15, 2020, 07:28:10 pm »
You are probably right, looking at the PCB backside.  :)

   https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=985516;image

I got confused with the isolation on the top side and the trace going away from there.

   https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=997413;image

Guess the trace is going to the differential inputs pins of the ADCs and tied together to GND for noise reduction.
 

 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 07:32:26 pm by rlohmann »
 

Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #114 on: June 16, 2020, 03:12:01 am »
Could somebody follow which versions have the blue PCB and which versions have the green PCB?
Clearly, the blue ones seem to have issues which were resolved in the green revision with proper length matching.
 

Offline AlcidePiR2

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #115 on: June 16, 2020, 11:39:41 am »
Could you measure the resistance between the two BNC shieldings?

I bet it's ~= 0 Ohms...

Yes it is.
 

Online wolfy007

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #116 on: June 16, 2020, 01:38:27 pm »
Could you measure the resistance between the two BNC shieldings?

I bet it's ~= 0 Ohms...

Yes it is.

Yup zero Ohms
 

Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #117 on: June 28, 2020, 11:02:24 pm »
So, have you received your 1013d yet? And what's your verdict?
 

Online wolfy007

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #118 on: June 30, 2020, 10:47:07 am »
So, have you received your 1013d yet? And what's your verdict?

Quick overview, same as what others have seen;

Three of us at work bought them, none of them can be regarded 100MHz scopes. Even using HP 500MHz @10:1 probes (just to make sure its not an issues with the supplied probes), the highest frequency you will see is about 85MHz with a sine input before its starts showing nonsense (signal starts looking like its modulated/unstable), and its attenuated quite a bit.

At my most optimistic I would say its a 40MHz scope. I looked inside, it has a blue circuit board.

But I do like the form factor a lot, it uses far less volume than even the Micsig and actually fits in my small electronics tool box with tools, multimeter, and a hand held signal gen yet has a nice screen size. So if you just need a low cost simple visual signal probe, its fine. If you need a more serious portable tool, with more features (a 4ch version), superior software, stated bandwidth and better triggering, save up for the Micsig and a separate carry bag for it.

What I found interesting while testing was XY mode. If you just put up some simple lissajous figures (circle, spiral etc) its looks fantastic without trying. But try one of those boards that puts up a clock or one I made to put up a spinning graphic (aka w2aew > ), it cant render it correctly, almost as if its doing something funky in software.

When I get time I will post some photos.

But I collect all sorts of scopes so I couldnt help buying one, I accept my TEA....  ;D
 
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Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #119 on: June 30, 2020, 12:18:07 pm »
Can you clarify something for me? What does 50mV/div mean? As far as I know "division" refer to one line in the grid. But that doesn't tell me anything about the resolution within one division.

What I would like to know is the vertical resolution per ADC increment with a 10X probe (by how much does the voltage increase if the ADC output increases by 1). Or, equivalently, by how much does the voltage increment over the whole 8bit ADC range (0 to 255). Can anybody tell?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #120 on: June 30, 2020, 02:00:04 pm »
Quick overview, same as what others have seen;

Three of us at work bought them, none of them can be regarded 100MHz scopes. Even using HP 500MHz @10:1 probes (just to make sure its not an issues with the supplied probes), the highest frequency you will see is about 85MHz with a sine input before its starts showing nonsense (signal starts looking like its modulated/unstable), and its attenuated quite a bit.

At my most optimistic I would say its a 40MHz scope.

Edit: Post remove due to Aliexpress confusion over the numbers. Many sellers say it's 100MS/sec but it's not.

One question: How shiny are the screens on these? The screens on Micsigs look awfully shiny in videos. I hate that.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 03:33:34 pm by Fungus »
 

Online wolfy007

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #121 on: June 30, 2020, 02:46:53 pm »
Quick overview, same as what others have seen;

Three of us at work bought them, none of them can be regarded 100MHz scopes. Even using HP 500MHz @10:1 probes (just to make sure its not an issues with the supplied probes), the highest frequency you will see is about 85MHz with a sine input before its starts showing nonsense (signal starts looking like its modulated/unstable), and its attenuated quite a bit.

At my most optimistic I would say its a 40MHz scope.

That makes perfect sense for a 100Mhz sample rate. Nyquist will be at 50Mhz and that's your maximum frquency, but Nyquist is a very theoretical thing and requires an infinitely wide filter to get the original signal back.

On any practical device you'll start to get artifacts that look like AM as you approach Nyquist, this is due to the samples moving in and out of phase with the peaks and zero crossings in the signal.

The highest frequency you can hope to see correctly will be approx Nyquist/1.25 which just happens to be 40MHz. Bingo! Math, it works.  :popcorn:

I'm still mulling over whether to get one of these. OTOH it might be better to sell my Rigol DS1054Z and put the money towards a Micsig.

One question: How shiny are the screens on these? The screens on Micsigs look awfully shiny in videos. I hate that.

Except its supposed to be 1Gsa/s scope not 100Msa/s, cheap front end holds it back....

As for the screen, its shiny, as shiny as the Micsig for all intents and purposes.
 

Offline skoehler

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #122 on: June 30, 2020, 02:51:34 pm »
I would claim that the scope cannot display a 85MHz sine wave, if the sampling frequency is 100MSa/s. You need at least 2 samples per period of the sine wave. I conclude that this a 200MSa/s scope. But of course, results start degrading much earlier than samplefreq/2. Hence, the results starts becoming unreasonable above 40MHz (which would mean 5 samples per sine wave).

Anyhow, a Mini DS213 has a 100MSa/s samplerate, the price is higher, the display is smaller, and it has no touch screen. So maybe the 1013d is a reasonable choice for its price point?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #123 on: June 30, 2020, 03:31:26 pm »
I would claim that the scope cannot display a 85MHz sine wave, if the sampling frequency is 100MSa/s. You need at least 2 samples per period of the sine wave. I conclude that this a 200MSa/s scope. But of course, results start degrading much earlier than samplefreq/2. Hence, the results starts becoming unreasonable above 40MHz (which would mean 5 samples per sine wave).

Anyhow, a Mini DS213 has a 100MSa/s samplerate, the price is higher, the display is smaller, and it has no touch screen. So maybe the 1013d is a reasonable choice for its price point?

Wait, I'm confused...

Many sellers say: "100MS/s"

eg. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001123682082.html

But the official store says: "100M bandwidth 1GS sampling rate"

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000934486311.html

I imagine the official store is correct, in which case there's something that doesn't add up.

 

Online Fungus

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Re: FNIRSI-1013D "100MHz" tablet oscilloscope
« Reply #124 on: June 30, 2020, 03:34:58 pm »
As for the screen, its shiny, as shiny as the Micsig for all intents and purposes.

OK, thanks.
 


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