Frustrating after sale Vision Engineering - Mantis Elite

[oldway]

I wonder how it would be possible to buy directly from vision engineering as they don't have an office in Brazil no more.
It seems they have had one but they stopped it.

[zapta]

Since they are aware that there are issues with that authorized seller, they should be more helpful to you. I understand your expectations from them.

[oldway]

How could Vision Engineering have any control on used equipment sales made by his autorized reseller ?

[MK14]

How could Vision Engineering have any control on used equipment sales made by his autorized reseller ?

By stopping authorizing them (if discussing it with them and threatening action, does not resolve the situation, between the headquarters and the seller), and possibly compensating any badly affected customers. To maintain the good name/will of the company. Since ultimately it is Vision Engineering who will lose business, in the longer term.

[oldway]

If the customer give up to use the local legal ressources and if he let the seller benefit financially from his dishonesty, I really don't understand why Vision Engineering would have to refund this customer.

About maintain the good name/will of the company, this is nonsense.
Vision Engineering is selling an unique and patented product for many years (more than 150.000 Mantis in the all world) and has nothing more to prove.

Vision Engineering will lose business in the longer term? I don't think so, perhaps they closed the brazilian office because market in South America is not that interesting. May be that costs are higher than benefits.

[MK14]

If the customer give up to use the local legal ressources and if he let the seller benefit financially from his dishonesty, I really don't understand why Vision Engineering would have to refund this customer.

About maintain the good name/will of the company, this is nonsense.
Vision Engineering is selling an unique and patented product for many years (more than 150.000 Mantis in the all world) and has nothing more to prove.

Vision Engineering will lose business in the longer term? I don't think so, perhaps they closed the brazilian office because market in South America is not that interesting. May be that costs are higher than benefits.

Vision Engineering are welcome to ignore this situation and wash their hands of it. But that is probably NOT the correct strategy for a proper/quality company and/or the best way of giving future/current buyers confidence in their products, company and authorized dealer network.

You seem to be blaming the victim of this, instead of the perpetrator(s). The OP does NOT have to go to court (or similar), it is up to them. That does NOT remove the obligations of the seller and (maybe) Vision Engineering, from putting the situation right.

[IanB]

You seem to be blaming the victim of this, instead of the perpetrator(s). The OP does NOT have to go to court (or similar), it is up to them. That does NOT remove the obligations of the seller and (maybe) Vision Engineering, from putting the situation right.

Well yes, but in most jurisdictions, including apparently Brazil, if you purchase something the contract is between you and the seller. If the goods are not as described or are otherwise defective, the burden is on the seller to put the situation right. If you give the seller a reasonable opportunity to do so and they fail, then it is appropriate to invoke relevant consumer protection laws.

What is puzzling in this case is that the OP has apparently waited 6 months without resolution from the seller, and has in all this time not made use of any legal remedies available, nor is even willing to name the seller involved.

Something seems very strange here.

[oldway]

By law, only the victim (the OP) may bring a lawsuit.

An action brought by Vision Engineering against the seller is legally inadmissible.

Vision Engineering can not substitute for the victim or make a complaint to the Brazilian procon.
The perpetrator is obviously the seller, not Vision Engineering
Who is this seller?

[MK14]

You seem to be blaming the victim of this, instead of the perpetrator(s). The OP does NOT have to go to court (or similar), it is up to them. That does NOT remove the obligations of the seller and (maybe) Vision Engineering, from putting the situation right.

Well yes, but in most jurisdictions, including apparently Brazil, if you purchase something the contract is between you and the seller. If the goods are not as described or are otherwise defective, the burden is on the seller to put the situation right. If you give the seller a reasonable opportunity to do so and they fail, then it is appropriate to invoke relevant consumer protection laws.

What is puzzling in this case is that the OP has apparently waited 6 months without resolution from the seller, and has in all this time not made use of any legal remedies available, nor is even willing to name the seller involved.

Something seems very strange here.

By law, only the victim (the OP) may bring a lawsuit.

An action brought by Vision Engineering against the seller is legally inadmissible.

Vision Engineering can not substitute for the victim or make a complaint to the Brazilian procon.
The perpetrator is obviously the seller, not Vision Engineering
Who is this seller?

I tend to agree with you both. There seems to be three ways this could be sorted out:

(1)...The OP takes the seller to court or similar organisation in Brazil

(2)...Vision Engineering, put huge pressure on the seller, by threatening to drop them, if they don't sort this out.

(3)...Vision Engineering, make a good will gesture and sort this out. Legally they probably DON'T need to, but it would lead to better customer satisfaction. Since the seller was/is authorized to be one, by Vision Engineering

Maybe you are both right, and the courts is the way to go.

Vision Engineering, are still potentially bad, because they should only authorize decent/honest/reliable sellers/resellers. Otherwise it can damage their good name.

[IanB]

Also, the item purchased was not apparently brand new from the manufacturer, but was sold second hand as a previously used item. In this situation the manufacturer cannot be responsible for how previous users might have treated the equipment.

[MK14]

Also, the item purchased was not apparently brand new from the manufacturer, but was sold second hand as a previously used item. In this situation the manufacturer cannot be responsible for how previous users might have treated the equipment.

The OP has already said the item was NOT suppose to be used. (Except used in the "demo unit" sense).

It was suppose to be a demo unit in new condition.

From OP's early posts:

DEMO in perfect working condition, like new

But I guess "Demo unit", can mean different things to different people.
But like new, should mean that it is in very, very good condition.

[rodpp]

It's important to register that I never discarded the legal way to solve this and probably it will be necessary.

What is frustrating to me is that buying from an authorized reseller or from some strange guy in the street is the same for Vision Engineering.

[oldway]

I tend to agree with you both. There seems to be three ways this could be sorted out:

(1)...The OP takes the seller to court or similar organisation in Brazil:Yes, that's the right solution

(2)...Vision Engineering, put huge pressure on the seller, by threatening to drop them, if they don't sort this out.No, that's not possible because Vision Engineering can't drop them without having a very good reason to do this, as a conviction of the seller by a brazilian court. Without this, the seller will take Vision Engineering to court asking high fees for unilateral waiver of the agreements.

(3)...Vision Engineering, make a good will gesture and sort this out. Legally they probably DON'T need to, but it would lead to better customer satisfaction. Since the seller was/is authorized to be one, by Vision Engineering Doing this, Vision Engineering encourages his autorized seller to do this again by total impunity

Maybe you are both right, and the courts is the way to go.

Vision Engineering, are still potentially bad, because they should only authorize decent/honest/reliable sellers/resellers. Otherwise it can damage their good name.]In Brazil, it is very difficult to know if a seller is decent or not...only bad/good results can show this

[rodpp]

Also, the item purchased was not apparently brand new from the manufacturer, but was sold second hand as a previously used item. In this situation the manufacturer cannot be responsible for how previous users might have treated the equipment.

The OP has already said the item was NOT suppose to be used. (Except used in the "demo unit" sense).

It was suppose to be a demo unit in new condition.

From OP's early posts:

DEMO in perfect working condition, like new

But I guess "Demo unit", can mean different things to different people.
But like new, should mean that it is in very, very good condition.

More yet coming from an authorized reseller with 12 months warranty.

[IanB]

A demo unit is by definition not "new in box". It has been opened and used for demos. Perhaps it may have been shipped to various potential customers for evaluation, who may have done who knows what to it before shipping it back. It's exactly like the hardware that might get sent to Dave for review. Dave might do all sorts of things to the kit, including tearing it down, before returning it.

Yes, the seller may have falsely described the condition of the unit, but it was still a previously used unit, not brand new and not sold as such.

[MK14]

A demo unit is by definition not "new in box". It has been opened and used for demos. Perhaps it may have been shipped to various potential customers for evaluation, who may have done who knows what to it before shipping it back. It's exactly like the hardware that might get sent to Dave for review. Dave might do all sorts of things to the kit, including tearing it down, before returning it.

Yes, the seller may have falsely described the condition of the unit, but it was still a previously used unit, not brand new and not sold as such.

You are right, I agree.

I like to think that "Demo Unit" means that a brand new unit was taken out of its box and put on a display shelf (in a shop). Then later sold as a "Demo unit".

But as you say, it might have been sent to customers (so they can demo/try it out or a loaner until their unit is repaired/ready) and/or otherwise lent out. Meaning that it is just as "used", as a normal second hand item.

[MK14]

I tend to agree with you both. There seems to be three ways this could be sorted out:

(1)...The OP takes the seller to court or similar organisation in Brazil:Yes, that's the right solution

(2)...Vision Engineering, put huge pressure on the seller, by threatening to drop them, if they don't sort this out.No, that's not possible because Vision Engineering can't drop them without having a very good reason to do this, as a conviction of the seller by a brazilian court. Without this, the seller will take Vision Engineering to court asking high fees for unilateral waiver of the agreements.

(3)...Vision Engineering, make a good will gesture and sort this out. Legally they probably DON'T need to, but it would lead to better customer satisfaction. Since the seller was/is authorized to be one, by Vision Engineering Doing this, Vision Engineering encourages his autorized seller to do this again by total impunity

Maybe you are both right, and the courts is the way to go.

Vision Engineering, are still potentially bad, because they should only authorize decent/honest/reliable sellers/resellers. Otherwise it can damage their good name.]In Brazil, it is very difficult to know if a seller is decent or not...only bad/good results can show this

You might be right. I can see your points.

I feel sorry for the OP. It is sad that the Microscope that they paid good money for, and was from an authorized dealer has turned out to be of poor quality. The OP should have got a decent demo (to whatever extent that means used) Microscope, and should be peacefully using it now.
Instead he is faced with this horrible situation.

[nali]

It's important to register that I never discarded the legal way to solve this and probably it will be necessary.

What is frustrating to me is that buying from an authorized reseller or from some strange guy in the street is the same for Vision Engineering.

All industries suffer from rogue dealers unfortunately. I spent several years as a sales engineer for multinational manufacturers and sorting out the mess left by some of these cowboys was the worst part of the job by far.

I wonder what "authorized" means in this instance? It's quite possible that this reseller buys from a regional distributor and doesn't even have any sort of trading relationship with VE...

As has already been discussed this isn't an equipment or manufacturing fault, but rather a used item that sounds like it has been mistreated then (mis-)sold to OP. Yes I would be pissed off if it were me, but I wouldn't expect the foreign manufacturer to sort it out.

[oldway]

Also, the item purchased was not apparently brand new from the manufacturer, but was sold second hand as a previously used item. In this situation the manufacturer cannot be responsible for how previous users might have treated the equipment.

The OP has already said the item was NOT suppose to be used. (Except used in the "demo unit" sense).

It was suppose to be a demo unit in new condition.

From OP's early posts:

DEMO in perfect working condition, like new

But I guess "Demo unit", can mean different things to different people.
But like new, should mean that it is in very, very good condition.

More yet coming from an authorized reseller with 12 months warranty.

Yes, it seems from what you write that the seller is dishonest.
But if you are so sure of your affirmations and you have evidence, why do not you quote the name of the seller?
You fear prosecution for slander, libel and defamation?

[IanB]

It's important to register that I never discarded the legal way to solve this and probably it will be necessary.

What is frustrating to me is that buying from an authorized reseller or from some strange guy in the street is the same for Vision Engineering.

I think it is wrong of you to publicly bring Vision Engineering into it like this. They are merely a bystander in your dispute. You did not buy the unit new as shipped by the manufacturer, you bought it previously used with wear and tear along the way in a condition that was not properly described by the seller. Your dispute is purely with the seller of the goods, and not with the maker of the goods.

[Mechatrommer]

and probably the demo unit is out of warranty already (from Vision Engineering's point of view) since the day from its opening for demo is more than 12 months already. and fungus is not something warranted, its considered as user's fault for not handling (storing) it in the right condition, in this case is the reseller. the claim of "like new and fully functional" probably valid at the day of advertisement, and then it got stored and fungus developed. you dont have to do anything or use the item for fungus to develop. so the OP paid, and reseller just sent it in its "already packed condition from storage" without rechecking the condition. and since i suspect the DEMO unit is sold at a reduced price, i guess this is "you get what you pay" scenario, so nobody is going to take the responsibility. imho.

[oldway]

and probably the demo unit is out of warranty already (from Vision Engineering's point of view) since the day from its opening for demo is more than 12 months already. and fungus is not something warranted, its considered as user's fault for not handling (storing) it in the right condition, in this case is the reseller. the claim of "like new and fully functional" probably valid at the day of advertisement, and then it got stored and fungus developed. you dont have to do anything or use the item for fungus to develop. so the OP paid, and reseller just sent it in its "already packed condition from storage" without rechecking the condition. and since i suspect the DEMO unit is sold at a reduced price, i guess this is "you get what you pay" scenario, so nobody is going to take the responsibility. imho.

I don't agree....Brazilian law is very clear: the seller has 30 days to correct the problem...Product must be as described ..."like new"....OP is right but Vision Engineering has nothing to do with this.

[rodpp]

It's important to register that I never discarded the legal way to solve this and probably it will be necessary.

What is frustrating to me is that buying from an authorized reseller or from some strange guy in the street is the same for Vision Engineering.

I think it is wrong of you to publicly bring Vision Engineering into it like this. They are merely a bystander in your dispute. You did not buy the unit new as shipped by the manufacturer, you bought it previously used with wear and tear along the way in a condition that was not properly described by the seller. Your dispute is purely with the seller of the goods, and not with the maker of the goods.

I paid for a Demo unit in perfect working condition, like new, from an authorized reseller.

If I had bought it from some street store, with no business relationship with the Vision, I would agree with you.

When the seller says I'm an Vision Engineering authorized dealer, carrying the Vision Engineering trademark, supplied by the Vision Engineering with demo units, marketing materials, catalogs, in my opinion Vision is part of the deal.

[Mechatrommer]

I don't agree....Brazilian law is very clear: the seller has 30 days to correct the problem...Product must be as described ..."like new"....OP is right but Vision Engineering has nothing to do with this.

i agree. like others, i would also say, the reseller/representative is at fault here, not the manufacturer/vision engineering. and i believe the reseller also tried to fix the item, but as we already know, fungus is not something easily fixable. and then maybe they tried to deal with manufacturer to get a new lens, but got charged for their own fault. since the item sold at discounted price, they decided not to proceed with replacement part due to economic point of view, who knows this is just speculation. if the OP want to take legal action, he may proceed, but putting manufacturer on different globe as the defendent is less wiser imho.

[Mechatrommer]

This is corporate suicide on the part of Vision Engineering 

and relating to this....

do you think they the mantis give a rat arse on a bunch of hobbiests? i believe their market is on high class professional companies with thick checkbook. beside that, if one is not to buy from mantis, from where they want to buy from? afaik, the closest contender to mantis is this.... (from hobbiests POV)

http://www.ebay.com.my/itm/7X-45X-Inspection-Dissecting-Pillar-Stand-Zoom-Stereo-Microscope-56-LED-Light-/282039877414?hash=item41aae2ff26:g:s~MAAOSw9k5XP6fr