Functional comparison of R&S RTB2000, Siglent SDS2000X and Keysight DSOX1000

[RBBVNL9]

An error with the 10Bit mode. SDS2000X+ is limited to 100MHz in 10Bit mode. Not 10MHz or 20Mhz.

Yes, correct. I added an erratum. Recording videos without mistakes is much harder than writing documents of forum posts :-| The overview document was correct on this, fortunately.

[RBBVNL9]

v40 - Page 8 - Acquisition system & memory
  - Segmented memory depth
    RTB2000 - 160Msample
    should be: 320 Msample (e.g. 1 Channel, Record Length 10 MSa, No. of Segments 32)

Thanks! I was still planning to dig into memory in much more detail.

The Product Brochure | Version 06.00 mentions 160 Msample segmented memory, without further details. But the Data Sheet Version 15.00 indeed notes that memory is 320 Msample per channel in interleaved (i.e., 2 channel) mode.

So, somewhat surprisingly, the product brochure is underselling a bit ;-)

Will update!

[nctnico]

When testing decoding (it looks like you are doing that), don't forget to test where the bitrate tops out at different memory lengths. You can find nasty surprises there.

[kcbrown]

I have a request: when you're showing the UI of any given scope, can you show the screen itself, as opposed to the remote UI for it?  I ask because the real responsiveness (good or bad) of the scope's UI isn't going to come through in the remote UI.  This is especially true of the Keysight, where the remote UI looks very slow, but the in-person experience is very fast.

[RBBVNL9]

I have a request: when you're showing the UI of any given scope, can you show the screen itself, as opposed to the remote UI for it?  I ask because the real responsiveness (good or bad) of the scope's UI isn't going to come through in the remote UI.  This is especially true of the Keysight, where the remote UI looks very slow, but the in-person experience is very fast

Thanks for the feedback.

I understand your wish and originally had planned to do that. But shooting a comparison video with >2 devices using camera’s takes a lot of additional resources, which eventually would compete with the overall scope and the feasible timeline. (It’s already surprising how much one underestimates the time it takes to make such videos before actually starting..)

But what I will try is to have at least have some parts in from real cameras where speed matters. And yes, there we will probably see the Keysight is very fast in many ways indeed. It's a satisfying experience.

Also, note there are quite some different dimensions in the ‘perceived’ display speed of a device. There is the update of waveforms (e.g., when changing time base or vertical settings, there is possible sluggishness in the overall user interface, there are possible delays in specific more demanding functions. There is the update rate of real-time tables (measurements, serial decode) and (decode) diagrams. There is the catching of infrequent events (where both waveform update and screen-related aspects play a role). One could almost make a video on this alone (which I am not planning to do).

Also otherwise, there is a bewildering number of aspects on which these oscilloscopes differ (in the comparison document - which will soon be updated - I now distinguish over 600 in 40 pages). This can make it challenging to choose the one that fits your needs.

At the same time, it reflects how sophisticated these instruments have become. And by virtue of a rather significant market size, these devices are much more affordable than more dedicated instruments- so you get an incredible bang for the buck ;-)

[nctnico]

On top of that a UI may be fast but you'll also need to look at efficiency. Needing to go through several layers of menus versus having all settings in 1 screen  to setup decoding for example.

[RBBVNL9]

On top of that a UI may be fast but you'll also need to look at efficiency. Needing to go through several layers of menus versus having all settings in 1 screen to setup decoding for example.

Certainly so. While preparing the next video episode on serial coding, I noted that for one device you need to visit 7 different menu pages to see and set all serial decode and serial trigger settings (plus two menu pages to get there).

While another device has all these settings on one single page, where you can see and set them all.

[RBBVNL9]

New video is out! Over one hour of in-depth discussion on serial protocol decoding of the three scopes.

And if that is too long for you, there is a TOC that allows you to jump right away to the parts that you want to see.

https://youtu.be/5MofTw7N2t8

[egonotto]

Hello,

thx for your videos.

In 40:43 on the right side is a USB scope. It looks like some 3000 or 5000 series from Picotech.
Sorry but I am curious what it is exact?

Best regards
egonotto

[RBBVNL9]

Hi egonotto,

In 40:43 on the right side is a USB scope. It looks like some 3000 or 5000 series from Picotech.
Sorry but I am curious what it is exact?

Indeed, it's a PicoScope 3405D. Due to its compact form, I take it sometimes with me when I want to measure on location. I particularly like the wide choice of serial protocol decoders, including USB (1.5 Mbps LowSpeed and 12 Mbps FullSpeed) and some of the features it offers for decoding. But the lack of a serial trigger puzzles me and is the reason I do not use it that often after all for that purpose. (I think I recently noted that before on this forum.)

I considered taking it along in the comparison video. But for a variety of reasons, I eventually opted not to do so.

[blurpy]

Really interesting to see the comparison of decoding between those scopes. Hope Siglent watches your videos for inspiration

[RBBVNL9]

Today I posted a new episode, on measurement tools (cursors, measurement mode, DVM and frequency counters). And this episode has a new winner: Siglent.

This is the fifth episode I am posting (not in subsequent order though). Stay tuned for the next one!

https://youtu.be/TAoB5614hs4

[dreamcat4]

https://youtu.be/TAoB5614hs4

maybe its still set to private, or not publish yet? cannot seem to access it

[RBBVNL9]

@dreamcat4, thanks for letting me know.

The video was set to public, but it may take a little while before that seems to work everywhere. (Maybe YouTube has some replication mechanism across their servers?)

In any case, it works here for a computer not logged in to my account.

Hope you find the video useful!

[dreamcat4]

thanks, yes can see it here now, all fine. and for sure: these video are very much appreciated, i am pretty grateful. as someone saving up to buy their 1st oscilloscope

[bdunham7]

I'm not sure why--perhaps YouTube hosting this far away from me--but I see low video quality (resolution), buffering and skipping.  I'll try downloading it and see what I get. 

[RBBVNL9]

I'm not sure why--perhaps YouTube hosting this far away from me--but I see low video quality (resolution), buffering and skipping.  I'll try downloading it and see what I get.

bdunham7, sorry to see that. The video is definitely posted in HD (1080p50), I do that because otherwise it is hard to really read the screens on these devices...

Probably a YouTube thing, hope your stream is better now!

[cesare]

I just watched your episode about the signal generators, and was interested in the SDS2000 problem with loading arb waveforms from channels - I get the same 'File does not exist!' error when attempting to use this feature on my scope.

So, I was interested in what file is missing, and attached to the scope via telnet to have a dig about, and get this entry in the logs when this happens:

W0327 19:20:09.298774   894 bu_app_msg_awg.cpp:626] /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/AWG_channel_wave.bin  not exist

So there appears to be a missing binary file which it is expecting to launch at this moment. It's possible that this is a release issue from Siglents end, so they may be able to run and test this feature in their QA team, but it doesn't make it to the binary release onto the production scopes?

I'm also wondering if the SDS5000 has this same functionality, and whether it works, and whether such a binary is included in their software install.

Anyhow, interesting series of videos, i'm learning stuff about the scope I already own!

[RBBVNL9]

Hi Cesare, thanks for the comments, and information on the specific file that the scope is looking for when that error pops up. My current thinking is that the BIN file might you identified is not, as you suggest, an executable file that needs to be launched, but instead a waveform data file (Siglent can save waveforms as Binary (BIN) as well as CSV and matlab). I tried to save a BIN file with that specific name from the device interface itself but I don't seem to be able to get to that specific folder the scope is looking into. Perhaps a TELNET session allows us to move a file there.  Something we should dig deeper into!

And.... you are ahead of me: there is indeed a new episode out (two hours ago ;-), did not have the chance yet to write it here.

For those that have not seen it yet: new episode 7 talks about signal generators (function generator, ARB, pattern generator, training signals). So about scopes generating signals instead of analyzing them.... ;-)

Along with the episode, there is also an updated comparison document, as well as two XLS files: one to create your own ARB waveforms for both RTB and SDS, and one to create 4-pin patterns for the RTB.

Enjoy!

 

[egonotto]

Hello,

thanks RBBVNL9 for the video.

In the datasheet from RTA4004 is the same 10 Ms/s.
I think they mean the frequency is max 10 MHz and 250 Ms/s.

I copy a part of a sine wave to the function generator of my RTA4004.

This arb function is played with 1 kHz and 10 MHz.

The pictures shows, that the max sample rate from the function generator must be far more than 10 Ms/s.

Best regards
egonotto

PS.: The fall time is about 6 ns.
 

[cesare]

Hi Cesare, thanks for the comments, and information on the specific file that the scope is looking for when that error pops up. My current thinking is that the BIN file might you identified is not, as you suggest, an executable file that needs to be launched, but instead a waveform data file (Siglent can save waveforms as Binary (BIN) as well as CSV and matlab). I tried to save a BIN file with that specific name from the device interface itself but I don't seem to be able to get to that specific folder the scope is looking into. Perhaps a TELNET session allows us to move a file there.  Something we should dig deeper into!

Yes of course, silly me, it'll be expecting a BIN waveform file.

The built-in standard waveforms are stored on the scope in /usr/bin/siglent/config/arb, if I copy one of these to the specified .bin filename, all of a sudden selecting the stored/channel arb waveform works (well, it works in the sense that it loads the waveform i've copied). So i ran:

# cp /usr/bin/siglent/config/arb/18_sinc_ram.bin  /usr/bin/siglent/usr/AWG_channel_wave.bin

And then selecting stored/channel pops me up with a sinc waveform.

So this does indeed feel like an incomplete feature - i'm guessing there is a missing stage where the channel is chosen and data is written to this directory with the given name. I'm assuming they do this to persist the waveform, so that, for example, if you disable and re-enable the AWG you get back your previously used waveform.

[RBBVNL9]

Dear Egonotto,

I think they mean the frequency is max 10 MHz and 250 Ms/s.

Yes, that does make sense. The sample rate indeed needs to be more way than the 10 MSa/s R&S mention in the specifications in order to output the waveform you show (and assuming it would be the same on the RTB as the RTA). I agree with you it is likely the same 250 MSa/s as used for the regular waveform generation. Will update my overview document. Thanks for checking!

[RBBVNL9]

Dear Cesare,

So i ran:

# cp /usr/bin/siglent/config/arb/18_sinc_ram.bin  /usr/bin/siglent/usr/AWG_channel_wave.bin

And then selecting stored/channel pops me up with a sinc waveform.

Good to know! The first next thing to try is to copy an actual waveform saved from an analogue channel to the right location and with the right name and see if that works too (while the build-in ATB waveforms may be optimized for 16kpts, a BIN saved from a measured waveform will be much, much larger and the ARB will need to have some strategy to reduce that to 16kpts).

The second next thing is for Siglent to fix this in the scope so we would not need a telnet session to make an advertised function work...

[cesare]

I've tried different size files captured from the device, written to USB and copied across to the right place, and no, these aren't correctly loaded. This doesn't surprise me, I imagine the missing stage is where this would happen.

As you say, it's a missing feature, Siglent need to resolve this. The overall feel of the AWG is that it's just about enough to get by with, but given the licence cost is approaching that of a SDG1032X with dual channels it does seem an odd set of features with odd omissions. It does feel like the software is limiting what the hardware is capable of, although maybe the missing modulation and sweep options suggest the hardware is quite compromised? I don't know how the SDS5000 compares for example.

[seronday]

@RBBVNL9,
   It is possible to transfer a waveform from one of the vertical channels to the Arbitrary Waveform Generator.

This is done from the vertical channel menu dialog box.
One of the menu items is  " Apply To ".
Selecting " Apply To ", brings up a list of options, one of these is ARB.
This copies the current channel waveform to the Arbitrary Waveform Generator.

You can then go to the Arbitrary Waveform Generator and select "Stored" and then " Channel' to output the waveform.

This is mentioned in the User Manual in section 12.2, Channel Setup,  but the way it is explained is somewhat confusing.

Regards.