Author Topic: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released  (Read 81397 times)

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Offline wraper

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #100 on: February 10, 2016, 08:24:53 pm »
High power Delta fans produce a different, higher pitched, noise mainly due to high tourque ripple applied to motor's shaft, i have some experience with induction heating cooktop cooling device from made by them, much more powerfull than the inFamous Delta Black label cpu cooler fan.
I didn't mean high power fans. Also this kind of noise is usually heard at low speeds because on higher speed it is masked by the noise from air movement. its like few tens of pulses per second maximum, usually significantly less. IIRC I've read this was caused by fast rising current in the motor coils.
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #101 on: February 10, 2016, 10:07:54 pm »
I didn't mean high power fans. Also this kind of noise is usually heard at low speeds because on higher speed it is masked by the noise from air movement. its like few tens of pulses per second maximum, usually significantly less. IIRC I've read this was caused by fast rising current in the motor coils.

Maybe "high power" is not the exact definition  anyway they were 35W 12V DC FAN,  loud as hell at full speed, photo of similar device in attachment.

I just spotted through case grids the fan model that's mounted in the opposite way that we saw in Dave's 1000B tear down, here it's sucking air from the inside, blowing outside.

It's an ADDA AD0612DX-C70GL, 60x60x20 3000rpm 10cfm, declared 18.5 dBa  :-DD (bullshit, otherwise broken)

Datasheet in attachment.

The humming noise from motor surpass air movement sound by a good factor,  Rigol is exactly the opposite case, both are boring but in a different way.

I will for sure replace the fan here, i should have some 60mm Sunon around but i have to check  airflow / air pressure specs, plus obtain the connector that lands on PSU board.

@nctnico : humming fan also for you or only high pitch sound (fixed, i know)  ?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #102 on: February 10, 2016, 10:11:11 pm »
There is some fan noise. I don't know if a different fan will make things much better. Perhaps putting the fan in a rubber suspension may improve things more than a different fan.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #103 on: February 10, 2016, 10:23:14 pm »
ADDA fans are more expensive than similar spec fans made by Sunon, and this is very respectable brand. 18.5 dBa is no bullshit, check how that is measured. This kind of noise is just very annoying, and yes the fan with low noise spec can have this annoying sound component which will drive you nuts while being perfectly within spec.
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #104 on: February 10, 2016, 10:28:38 pm »
Specs raw numbers are telling that, if you put the Zynq 7000 CPU computing power in straight comparison to what you find inside DSOs of the same price league you will find a huge difference.

Overview sheet in attachment.

Hmm - so what, specifically, are the significant performance advantages over a 2-chip architecture using a conventional SoC and FPGA? The listed attributes all sound fine, but not qualitatively beyond what ARM SoCs and FPGAs would offer.  The one area where I would have expected a qualitative difference is described in rather sketchy terms in the spec sheet: "High-bandwidth connectivity ... between Processing System and Programmable Logic". Or is the Zynq mainly aiming at a price advantage over a 2-chip solution?

If someone has more information on Zynq vs. 2-chip architectures -- preferably from an independent source, not from Xilinx themselves -- I would appreciated a link. I dont want to put Xilinx or Zynq down; honestly trying to learn more!

The shared CPU/FPGA bus memory architecture offers higher data exchange bandwidth simplifying a lot PCB design, being able to push bus interconnection at much higher freq. than PCB wired connection between two separate device.

And even if you look only to raw CPU computing power, here we have a dual core processor running @1Ghz (TBC), 2.5DMIPS/Mhz yield, plus 512KB L2 shared cache memory, i would say a lot superior to, for example, you can find inside Rigol, Siglent or R&S HMO1200.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 01:39:39 pm by markone »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #105 on: February 10, 2016, 10:34:50 pm »
Maybe "high power" is not the exact definition  anyway they were 35W 12V DC FAN,  loud as hell at full speed, photo of similar device in attachment.
I bet you have not heard 92x92x38 mm usual type high speed fans (12000 rpm)  :-DD in the 2.2 kW server PSU. It's like a fighter jet on your bench.
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #106 on: February 10, 2016, 10:57:34 pm »
ADDA fans are more expensive than similar spec fans made by Sunon, and this is very respectable brand. 18.5 dBa is no bullshit, check how that is measured. This kind of noise is just very annoying, and yes the fan with low noise spec can have this annoying sound component which will drive you nuts while being perfectly within spec.

I can assure you that this one sounds bad, it's like a power transformer,  for an 3000 rpm 0.6W 10cfm fan is not justified, even if the direct coupling with metal chassis does not help in this regard.

I just checked the specs for the Sunon that i should have somewhere, the MB60201V3-A99 : 16CFM @ 23dBa

dBa BS apart, for what i remember compared to this one is dead silent.

 
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #107 on: February 10, 2016, 11:01:54 pm »
Maybe "high power" is not the exact definition  anyway they were 35W 12V DC FAN,  loud as hell at full speed, photo of similar device in attachment.
I bet you have not heard 92x92x38 mm usual type high speed fans (12000 rpm)  :-DD in the 2.2 kW server PSU. It's like a fighter jet on your bench.

I heard smaller fans in 1U rack chassis server, ridiculously noisy.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #108 on: February 10, 2016, 11:05:14 pm »
dBa BS apart, for what i remember compared to this one is dead silent.
You can judge how silent it actually is only when it is put in the case. In the free air (in which measurements are made BTW) they are much more silent than in real use conditions, unless are hidden deep inside the box.
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #109 on: February 10, 2016, 11:29:14 pm »
dBa BS apart, for what i remember compared to this one is dead silent.
You can judge how silent it actually is only when it is put in the case. In the free air (in which measurements are made BTW) they are much more silent than in real use conditions, unless are hidden deep inside the box.

The current one for sure sux  :)
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #110 on: February 11, 2016, 12:06:06 am »
Putting in comparison original ADDA fan to Sunon MB60201V3-A99, ADDA SUX also on the paper.

About air pressure unit of measure :  1 InchH20 = 25.4 mmAq
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #111 on: February 11, 2016, 12:10:32 am »
By the way: I think the GDS2000E is a pretty good scope for it's price and certainly better than Rigol's or Siglent's offerings becuase it actually works. There are still some issues with the version 1.20 firmware but I have received a beta firmware version from Gw Instek which already solved most of them. When I get a final firmware version I'll write up a more detailed review (I did a lot of testing before deciding to keep it).

Hi nctnico,

could you please PM me the Beta FW ?
 

Offline wblock

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #112 on: February 11, 2016, 12:16:20 am »
Is the fan in this scope variable-speed?

If the fan is PWM-controlled, that switching can induce a mechanical noise.  My Instek power supply does this.  In the case and at full power, the fan is nearly silent.  At lowest power, it makes a buzzing that sounds somewhat like a bushing wearing out.  I thought I posted about that in this thread, but maybe not, sorry.  Anyway, there is a Microchip app note about it: http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00771b.pdf.  Make the cap big enough, and it defeats the PWM entirely, which might be quieter overall.
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #113 on: February 11, 2016, 12:37:49 am »
Is the fan in this scope variable-speed?

I do not think, at least i do not notice any speed variation from cold state and warmed-up state, and looking at PSU shots i do not spot active components for PWM driving, but i could be wrong of course.

Anyway, interesting application article, i'll save it in my doc server.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #114 on: February 11, 2016, 06:10:56 am »

Hmm - so what, specifically, are the significant performance advantages over a 2-chip architecture using a conventional SoC and FPGA? The listed attributes all sound fine, but not qualitatively beyond what ARM SoCs and FPGAs would offer.  The one area where I would have expected a qualitative difference is described in rather sketchy terms in the spec sheet: "High-bandwidth connectivity ... between Processing System and Programmable Logic". Or is the Zynq mainly aiming at a price advantage over a 2-chip solution?

If someone has more information on Zynq vs. 2-chip architectures -- preferably from an independent source, not from Xilinx themselves -- I would appreciated a link. I dont want to put Xilinx or Zynq down; honestly trying to learn more!

The shared CPU/FPGA bus memory architecture offers higher data exchange bandwidth simplifying a lot PCB design, being able to push bus interconnection at much higher freq. than PCB wired connection between two separate device.

And even if you look only to raw CPU computing power, here we have a dual core processor with running @1Ghz (TBC), 2.5DMIPS/Mhz yield, plus 512KB L2 shared cache memory, i would say a lot superior to, for example, you can find inside Rigol, Siglent or R&S HMO1200.

Thanks for the additional detail. The difference in CPU power does boil down to a cost argument, I think (in contrast to an architectural advantage of the Zynq). The other scope manufacturers could have used faster dual-core ARMs, but decided against it for budget reasons. Not sure whether there is an actual price difference, by the way: When comparing the GW Instek with the Rigol DS1000Z series, one should consider that these scopes are in different price ranges, so GW Instek probably did spend more on the Zynq than what Rigol spent on their CPU plus FPGA.

The other aspect you mention (shared bus between CPU and prorammable logic) is what I also referrred to, as the area where I would expect a qualitative performance difference due to the integrated architecture. Hence I was surprised that the Xilinx sheet does not go into more detail here or give numbers. Maybe this advantage is difficult to quantify, since it depends on the application. I would expect that it helps in a DSO, enabling fast handover of the acquired data to the CPU, and back to the screen. Is it conceptually comparable to classical DMA interfaces (direct memory access), or is there a fundamental difference?
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #115 on: February 11, 2016, 03:44:26 pm »
Thanks for the additional detail. The difference in CPU power does boil down to a cost argument, I think (in contrast to an architectural advantage of the Zynq). The other scope manufacturers could have used faster dual-core ARMs, but decided against it for budget reasons. Not sure whether there is an actual price difference, by the way: When comparing the GW Instek with the Rigol DS1000Z series, one should consider that these scopes are in different price ranges, so GW Instek probably did spend more on the Zynq than what Rigol spent on their CPU plus FPGA.

The other aspect you mention (shared bus between CPU and prorammable logic) is what I also referrred to, as the area where I would expect a qualitative performance difference due to the integrated architecture. Hence I was surprised that the Xilinx sheet does not go into more detail here or give numbers. Maybe this advantage is difficult to quantify, since it depends on the application. I would expect that it helps in a DSO, enabling fast handover of the acquired data to the CPU, and back to the screen. Is it conceptually comparable to classical DMA interfaces (direct memory access), or is there a fundamental difference?

That Xilinx sheet seems more a "brochure" aimed to high level managers than HW/SW developers, it's purposely not intended to go deep in tech details, anyway on their website you can find tons of docs.

Same thing for Altera's CPU/FPGA SOC like Altera's Cyclon 5.

We do not know (at least i do not) how Zynq or "generic" CPU/FPGAs really cost for medium/high quantity (>>1000), Digikey or similar listing may be quite off comparing its prices against what a brand like Rigol, GW, Siglent could obtain under a trade agreement with Xilinx or Altera, like GW seems to have done.

The GDS-2000E series shows off 120.000 wfms/s waveform update rate against the 50.000 wfms/s from the GDS-1000B series (the one analyzed by Dave), anyway these two scope lines are built in a complete different way (the 2000E in a much better way) so i'm not sure if the Zynq 7000 model inside the "E" series is the same for "B" series (7010CLG400) or if they improved a lot the system efficiency.

If we take Digikey prices in account for a rough cost comparison, the Zynq 7010CLG400 comes for about 85USD (there are several variants, anyway) against the average 50-70USD amount for traditional cheap DSO's CPU+FPGA coupling, where you have yet to deal with additional RAM memory chips, PCB design effort and bigger board size.

Not a huge cost difference, maybe a DSO could be even cheaper if built around Zynq, the reason why right now you can find only GW ones on the market (in this segment, of course) should lie in the fact that it's a relatively recent SOC family, supported by a complete different code toolchain with a steep learning curve, not a joke to deal with.

I could imagine that GW placed it's bet on this SOC benefiting from a "special price", and last but not the least a rilevant development support from Xilinx's specialists and/or external consultants.

Anyway, if you look to FFT performance and overall responsivity of GDS2000E, as i did this night, you soon discover an amount of computing power not common for similar or higher priced DSOs.

I can bet that next Rigol DSOs generation will go for the same path.





« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 05:05:21 pm by markone »
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #116 on: February 12, 2016, 06:40:24 pm »
About FAN replacement, i choose a couple of models :

1) Sunon MagLev MB60201V3-000U-A99 ---> 16.7 cfm / 2.5 mmH2O
2) Scythe SY602012L ---> 12.3 cfm / 1.45 mmH2O

Original growling ADDA (CR@PPA, at least mine)  fan specs : 10.7 cfm / 1.37 mmH2O

The latter (Scythe) comes "ready to fit" out of the box having proper connector already wired and last but not he least it's available on Amazon.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #117 on: February 12, 2016, 08:27:31 pm »
Why not go for a respectable brand like Papst? IMHO there is no use to replace one cheap crap fan with another cheap crap fan  ;)
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #118 on: February 12, 2016, 10:17:46 pm »
Why not go for a respectable brand like Papst? IMHO there is no use to replace one cheap crap fan with another cheap crap fan  ;)

This ADDA should be defective, otherwise i do not explain all this growling, you can hear it also when you turn off the scope and the motor is no more energized and slow down.

You are not laming about that so i assume your scope's fan has not same problem.

I actually looked for 60x60x20 Papst fans, no success, only 60x60x15 (like 612F) or 60x60x25 (like 612NME), the first one maybe takes less hot air from inside while the latter comes to close to front end shielding.

PAPST are among the best but also on expensive side,  i had good experiences with Sunon MagLev series, you normally hear air flow sound but not motor buzzing, like happens with Rigol DS1054Z's (Sunon MagLev inside).

Scythe  are usually very good for the price even if targetted for silent PC market , dunno for the 60mm model but @ 7Euro shipping included (Amazon) and right  GW PSU mating connector out of the box  may worth a try.

Which tool have you used to open upper case hood clips without leaving signs ?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #119 on: February 12, 2016, 10:33:06 pm »
You can see two dents, with the scope standing press those in with a flat screwdriver and the case will pop open.
Regarding the fan in your scope: maybe there is a wire touching the blades.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #120 on: February 12, 2016, 11:00:57 pm »
You can see two dents, with the scope standing press those in with a flat screwdriver and the case will pop open.
Regarding the fan in your scope: maybe there is a wire touching the blades.

Just checked, nothing is touching the fan's blades.
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #121 on: February 13, 2016, 11:44:14 pm »
Original scope's fan (ADDA brand) sound recording in attachment, to me it's definitely crap or faulty.

I would say that scope's fan noise test is not present in factory quality checklist...   :-\
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #122 on: February 14, 2016, 01:52:49 am »
Why not go for a respectable brand like Papst? IMHO there is no use to replace one cheap crap fan with another cheap crap fan  ;)

Hi Nico, could you please check your scope's fan orientation watching through the hood's vents and see if you can spot its label ?

I can see the label, the fan is blowing the air out, the opposite of what we saw in GDS-1000B tear down.

One thing i noticed is that the analog front-end metal shielding box it's quite too close to fan's intake tending to suffocate it, the air flow is lower and noise is higher, the correct position should be at least 5mm farther.

Maybe a 15mm deep fan could work better, Papst  612 F/2 return to be a possible candidate.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #123 on: February 14, 2016, 11:14:27 am »
In my scope I can also see the green label. I wouldn't be too much upset by the shielding can being close to the fan because a little bit of airflow is enough to provide a lot of cooling.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline markone

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Re: New GW Instek GDS-2000E oscilloscope released
« Reply #124 on: February 14, 2016, 12:52:59 pm »
I agree but having to change my scope's fan i would take this opportunity to put the best solution inside and forget the issue forever  :)

I measured the instrument power consumption, it's around 20Watt, the same for DS1000Z scopes that have better thermal design, although with a lot of moving air noise but at least no growling sound at all.

Right now the scope is making a lot of weird noise (try to listen the recording in my previous post) and back scope's BNC (cal and go/nogo) are getting warm after a while (about 35°C outside body with 20°C room temp) sign that the cooling system is not working good and considering that here in summer i could get 33-35 °C for ambient temp ...

Not a surprise, the fan placement it's clearly not the best, as Dave noted in his tear down video.

I made some tests with the fan on the table, with the current shield distance the air flow is more than halfed respect what you get with additional 5mm.
 


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