Author Topic: Have I been sent a used or refurbished Saelig oscilloscope?  (Read 2543 times)

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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Have I been sent a used or refurbished Saelig oscilloscope?
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2020, 06:41:00 pm »
GET OUT OF HERE! ARE YOU KIDDING! I am 100% right. I am going with my gut feeling and will return it and buy from a more reputable retail if they do not want to make it right.

No you are not right, but you do behave like you're 4 year old...
You asked a question. Several people told you you're wrong.
So you're wrong, no matter how spoiled or immature person you are...
Get over your ego. Your scope's box is not a virgin. Bu-hu. Big deal. Stop whining.

If you want to return it seller, just do it. Ask them that you specifically want pristine unopened box.
You are their customer so they might be compelled to cater to your whiny immaturity.
But stop whining about it. Do, or, don't. Simple as that. But scope is new and you would be doing it for nothing.

We didn't take your money and we don't care. We told you the truth. Sorry that it hurts.
Consider it an opportunity for you to grow and become a better person.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Have I been sent a used or refurbished Saelig oscilloscope?
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2020, 11:42:03 pm »
Ok so i ordered an oscillocope (Siglent SDS2104X Plus) from Saelig.com and requested a small educational discount which they did give me, however despite the fact that the product page stated that it was "back ordered," my unit was shipped out the very next day. When I received it, the box looks like it has been previously opened and then retaped. Attached are pictures... what do you guys think? Did they send me a used/refurbished unit?

Very common to have boxes opened by dealers and retaped. They often need to update firmware, include accessories or some other thing. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. No big deal. Saelig are a very reputable official dealer.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Have I been sent a used or refurbished Saelig oscilloscope?
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2020, 11:50:23 pm »
GET OUT OF HERE! ARE YOU KIDDING! I am 100% right. I am going with my gut feeling and will return it and buy from a more reputable retail if they do not want to make it right.

Sorry but you are wrong, you do not understand the test equipment dealership industry. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for the dealer to open the box, and this is GOOD thing. It's one of the reasons why dealers exist, to provide value added services and ensure your scope is updated and ready for you with the right local accessories. This is the service you are actually paying for.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Have I been sent a used or refurbished Saelig oscilloscope?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2020, 11:51:52 pm »
Quote
When I received it, the box looks like it has been previously opened and then retaped. Attached are pictures... what do you guys think? Did they send me a used/refurbished unit?
Did you check the power on count?  Usually under Utility - System Status or something similar   If only turned on once or twice it may have just been verified to be working OK by the vendor prior to shipment
Roger

There also might have been several factory test power ups and the counter not reset.
 
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Offline phs

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Not sure why the previous thread was closed, but some of the responses there seemed quite illogical, and even somewhat alarming to me.  After having been through some related time-wasting experiences, I thought some folks might appreciate another perspective for consideration, at least.

We’ve purchased a lot of equipment from Saelig over the years and we’ve NEVER received any test equipment that has not been in a factory-sealed box.  If we had, it would have been returned immediately. But -- we verify with distributors, before purchase, that the equipment will arrive in factory-sealed packaging.  Always.  This prevents a myriad of potential issues.

For a long time now, none of the distributors we use have ever sent us new test gear that wasn’t factory-sealed.

There is no way I will trust a distributor who feels they know better than the customer how to evaluate, “test”, or upgrade firmware, unless they are a manufacturer-certified service center.  Maybe the customer WANTS to upgrade the firmware themselves.  I certainly would, rather than taking the risk that some intern’s first day experiments might be on my $20k instrument.

If any testing or firmware upgrades are necessary WE WILL DO THEM!  Anything else that has to be shipped with the instrument can be shipped in a separate package – UNLESS we approve some other option.  And yes, I’m willing to pay extra for this, if necessary.

If the package is not factory-sealed, we can only assume that any calibration cert is no longer valid (at least I would refuse to accept it), because there’s been no official manufacturer-approved chain-of-custody of the instrument that accounts for every detail of what happened to it once it was opened by the distributor.  Did some other customer play with it for a while, was an employee taking liberties with it, or was it used as a demo-unit?  In some cases the customer could check the run-time of the instrument, or see how much time it has been run by checking the remaining trial time on demo features.  But why should the customer have to even waste time worrying about any of this?

There are enough variables as is without having to wonder what possible atrocities could have happened when some, let’s assume well-meaning – and I sincerely believe most are -- distributor starts messing around with your expensive, sensitive equipment.  How do you know they don’t leave pieces sitting, opened, in a high-humidity environment for a few months, collecting dust, bugs, and who knows what else? 

Did they run your instrument on regulated, filtered, power?  Was the equipment subjected to any power surges, unsafe input levels, static discharges, pop spills, high G-forces (dropped)?  Did you actually receive a demo unit?  If you do end up having issues due to mistreatment, maybe they’ll be intermittent, or will only show up after the warranty has expired.  Maybe certain ranges of the instrument will be out-of-spec due to some sort of damage.  The instrument's lifetime may have been shortened.  They even might have run down the time on any demo features.

It seems some distributors here actually “play around” with future customer’s test gear before they send it out, even allowing others to have a “play” with it. Completely unacceptable!!  That’s just another reason to insist on factory-sealed equipment -- to prevent distributors who think they know better than the customer, letting their friends have a play with the unit you paid for.

Time is precious.  I don’t want to have to worry about all the implications of receiving a piece of gear that is not factory-sealed.

If a unit arrives DOA, and is factory-sealed, then within a certain time period, the distributor should exchange it for a new, factory-sealed unit.  If there are issues discovered after that period, then the best bet is to deal directly with the manufacturer, or a factory-authorized service center, thank you very much.

It’s hard to imagine Siglent’s end-of-line testing is so poor that they require distributors to open every box to make sure everything is working.  If that were the case, we would never consider purchasing Siglent products in the future.  Thankfully, I’m quite sure they don’t have such a silly requirement. 

However, after seeing this thread, we’ll be checking directly with Siglent ourselves to verify this is not their policy, before purchasing any more of their products.  Every Siglent piece we’ve received so far has been factory-sealed though, and I strongly suspect this will remain the case in the future.  With a proper distributor, that is.

Just to be clear:  Saelig has never let us down so far, and every single piece of test equipment ordered from them has been FACTORY-SEALED!  We will also be verifying with Saelig that this is still their standard practice.  If not, we’ll be purchasing elsewhere, but again – I can’t imagine Saelig opens up every piece of equipment they receive to “test” it.  That seems rather absurd.

I strongly suggest that folks who don’t want to have to wonder what their equipment has been subjected to, verify with their distributor, before purchase, that they will receive it in factory-sealed packaging.  If there are any issues, it’s much simpler to resolve because the variables of abuse-by-distributor, or even one of the distributor’s customers, is completely eliminated.  If a distributor refuses to do this, then something is wrong -- I'd strongly recommend you purchase elsewhere.

There’s a reason for factory-sealed boxes being sealed with manufacturer-specific tape.  There’s also a reason quality distributors sell “open box” units at a reduced price.  If the seal is broken, the instrument should be considered used.  Period.

Of course, feel free to do as you wish – good luck and good health to you all!

Now back to work...
 
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Offline sequoia

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I've had this happen with TEquipment. Ordered a Rigol signal generator and some other small items, they had opened the signal generator (and discarded the outer box as this comes double boxed from factory) and thrown the other items (loose) inside the signal generator box.  I was rather annoyed.... Definitely would have returned if didn't need the unit ASAP and if the signal generator had not been in plastic bag with the tape clearly unopened (however, never know if it was used/open-box unit that had simply put in new plastic bag and taped shut....).

Some vendors offer (traceable) calibration services, so if a new unit was ordered with calibration, only then it would be acceptable to receive new unit in "opened" box....if it was sold as a new....



 

Offline mcinque

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I totally agree. New stuff must be factory sealed.

No one should open the box or touch the instrument unless it is a service center certified by the manufacturer AND the operation is made mandatory by the manufacturer.

There is no reason anyone else should do it: "checking the content" or a unrequested "firmware upgrade" are a ridiculous excuses.

I struggle to accept that someone is fine with that.
 

Offline Elasia

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Copy paste from the other thread....

They open the boxes to toss in their flyer, i buy kit from them all the time and they are easy to deal with.  For hard to find items i usually have an order in with them while im also second sourcing from overseas

+1.. this isnt the consumer market, this level of service is commonly expected.. i'd rather a post import inspection be done than waste my time dealing with a pos doa product wasting my time


To further add most distributors more than likely have a check box on their customer cards saying if acceptable or not or some other notation for anyone that flips out about it and buys a good bit.
 

Online tautech

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phs
You seem blissfully unaware of the complexities of selling test equipment.

Every dealer will have their own policy depending on whether they are committed to offering customers the best first impression or whether they are just box shufflers.

I can only speak for the brands I sell and my policy has been to open every item and add a company sticker with our contact links should customers need to contact us for support, heaven forbid warranty or repeat purchases.

If options are ordered at the same time as an instrument it is only natural to add them into the box as manufacturers conveniently package units so HW options can be slid in alongside scopes and spectrum analyzers.
We don't possess magic wands to get physical options into boxes and taping them to the outside or alternatively sending small additional boxes could be seen as asking Murphy to intervene in what should be a simple delivery process.
As dealers we have no way to know the capabilities of buyers installing options however familiarity with instruments makes the dealer the obvious choice to install options especially when they've already installed 100's.

The case for adding FW is the same if by chance its installation prevents fatal errors in older FW, it is a preventative measure that could save the customer and dealer substantial grief further down the track. Nand corruption issues are an example of such.
Some customers with class sets of instruments despise the need to update FW as the process can consume some hours and appreciate the instruments are upgraded before delivery.
Again, good dealers will have done FW installs 100's of times.

I have the satisfaction in knowing that an instrument is completely up to date once I have done my checks and like it came from the factory yesterday and 100% confident it will cause my customer zero issues with any known problems at that point in time.

Others might have a different POV, that's mine.


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Offline phs

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...”You seem blissfully unaware of the complexities of selling test equipment.”...

Haha, hope that made you feel better brother.  I do apologize if I upset you.  In case I did, I thought I’d take a little time to fill things out a bit more.  There are a number of points you didn’t address, but that’s totally fine by me – as long as you’re happy.  Maybe, or maybe not, this will help you to further understand, and maybe not feel so threatened by customers who have strict requirements.

And, you may be right – I’m probably blissfully unaware of all sorts of things, AND, most people are far smarter than I am…

But, in the past 35 years I’ve never encountered any issue that wasn’t easily resolved through either the distributor, or the manufacturer.  In fact, we’ve rarely had any issues at all – I can probably count them on one hand.  That is – after having one bad experience with a sleazy distributor many years ago, which is what led to this policy.  I attribute this success, at least partially, to always getting factory-sealed gear.  Yep. 

And certainly, there have never been any issues whatsoever by demanding factory-sealed products -- our distributors have never had any problem with it either.

Though I’d gladly pay extra for any accessories/options to be shipped, with whatever factory seals they may have, separately, the distributors I deal with do this as a matter of course.  They’ve never even charged extra for this, and we have our own discounts with the distributors we use.  I certainly don’t consider them to be “box shufflers” – they’ve always been there for me, the very few times when I needed them to be, and they know I’m a loyal customer.  When I think about it, I don’t know of an instance where we ordered anything that didn’t already have all options already factory-installed.

The bottom line is:  If the factory seal is broken, the customer has no idea what that piece of equipment may have been through.  It’s quite simple. 

It’s a matter of respect for what the customer wants, and not forcing them to just trust the likely opaque processes at a distributor when there’s actually no real need for any of that, for many customers.

Now I do believe you genuinely want to take care of your customers, and it’s awesome that you get such pride out of setting up their gear for them.  Great!  And maybe most of the folks you deal with want it that way – also great!  I wish you much success. 

In my case, I’m apparently lucky to have good relationships with the distributors we use, I know how to get in touch with them because I talk with them frequently (don’t need/want any stickers from the distributor on my test gear), and I know they’ll be there if we have any issues.

Anyway, that’s my story – take it or leave it, it’s all good with me.  Hopefully you and your customers  are also happy, and that’s a good thing.

Now, as nice as so many of the folks here are, alas, there are other priorities I must attend to.

No hard feelings, eh?  Take care and best of luck to you!
 
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Online tautech

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phs
It seems a past bad experience has tainted you views of us.  :-//
Yes, one rotten apple can spoil the whole basket but not always so.
Manufacturers do assess the job we are doing for them and if not happy will remove a franchise and appoint it to someone else and this is why Testequipment lost Siglent a few years back and Saelig was appointed as the NA main online seller.

Options
I dunno how other dealers deal with this however we get all units minus options unless on indent and presold but keep a range of common options in stock for those that want them.
Ordinarily we install them before dispatch to save the customer the hassle of redeeming them online and then installing them. Time is money for us and the buyer so while we might check probes etc it's simple to install options so customers can get on with using gear to have it return on investment.

At one time we didn't have company stickers or check probes but after having a couple of duds the and hassle for us and customers and additional cost of replacing them it makes sense to us to compensate and check 1x 10x switching before dispatch. Yet in the last year or so no duds have been found which indicates the feedback given to Siglent to give to their probe suppliers is paying dividend.

I guess there will be a day when a customer demands an unopened box and we'll deal with that when it arrives.

No offense taken and only wanting to make it clear how different the big picture is from the other side of the fence.  ;)
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Online tautech

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BTW, request to merge threads sent to moderators.
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Offline vk6zgo

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I learnt many years ago to not trust manufacturers implicitly.
When I was a kid, my Mum bought a small plug in electric oven.

It came in a beautiful, factory sealed box, but when we opened it, we found it had been dropped prior to being packed, so both ends were angled at something other than 90 degrees to the top & bottom panels.
We took it back, & asked for the display one, instead, as we could inspect it.
That one lasted for years.

Even today's consumer goods don't always come in boxes sealed by "naked virgins riding unicorns".
One short job I had entailed re-programming dishwashers to the Australian program from the German one which had been inadvertently installed.
"Yes, Virginia, different countries do have different dishwashing requirements!"

To this end, I had to open the carton at the bottom, lift it off, remove a panel, reprogram the machine using a "magic box", put everything back together, then refit the carton, resealing it with generic packing tape.

As I said in the previous thread, as far as test equipment is concerned, it was for many years, standard procedure to receive units which had been opened for inspection by the importer, & any OZ specific stuff added.
In any case, if the importer had a roll of the official tape & resealed the box, how would you know?
You could say:-

"Aha! But I could see if there were traces of previous taping!"

The problem there is it could be a failure in the original taping, which had been remedied prior to leaving the factory..

My feeling is that you are elevating the "care factor" of  base level paid employees at the factory above that of someone who is making a living out of supplying such equipment.

Another unknown is the possibility of the packaging being "violated" by people with the legislated authority to do so.
You could fit a lot of drugs in a DSO.

A German ham a few years ago was quite irate with tnat country's Customs, who diligently drilled holes in some external anode RF power tubes, rendering them useless!



« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 01:41:31 am by vk6zgo »
 

Offline EEVblog

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If any testing or firmware upgrades are necessary WE WILL DO THEM!  Anything else that has to be shipped with the instrument can be shipped in a separate package – UNLESS we approve some other option.  And yes, I’m willing to pay extra for this, if necessary.

If that's what you want to do, then that's fine. But when everyone tells you (including actual official dealers) that's not how it normally works in the industry, then you should accept that perhaps, just perhaps, your viewpoint is going to continue to cause you issues in the future.
 

Offline EEVblog

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phs
You seem blissfully unaware of the complexities of selling test equipment.
Every dealer will have their own policy depending on whether they are committed to offering customers the best first impression or whether they are just box shufflers.
I can only speak for the brands I sell and my policy has been to open every item and add a company sticker with our contact links should customers need to contact us for support, heaven forbid warranty or repeat purchases.

Most dealers I've worked with do the same thing.
Most people would be happy to know that their unit has been locally checked, firmware updated if needed, got the right power cord and accessories etc.
 

Online tautech

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Another unknown is the possibility of the packaging being "violated" by people with the legislated authority to do so.
You could fit a lot of drugs in a DSO.
Or someone lawfully authorized open it as has happened here on an occasion or 2 by border Customs officers.
Unusual but it does happen.

I notice this as the contents are never exactly as they normally come from the factory as border officers don't so much care just as long as they can get everything back into the box !
Generally they go in from the bottom of the box so repacking can result is stuff upside down !
Still, they have a job to do......
« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 02:20:59 am by tautech »
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Offline EEVblog

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There is no reason anyone else should do it: "checking the content" or a unrequested "firmware upgrade" are a ridiculous excuses.
I struggle to accept that someone is fine with that.

In most cases you would have no idea what firmware version a product comes with. Why wouldn't anyone want the latest version installed?
Stock can sit around for months in the distribution system, and firmware can be quite out of date before it gets to you.
In the cases being discussed here we are talking about authorised dealers.
 

Offline Brumby

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I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into whinging about dealers who are dodgy.  They are a blight that should be purged - and I don't think anyone here would say otherwise.

Let's stick to the core question that relates to pre-delivery actions.


We’ve purchased a lot of equipment from Saelig over the years and we’ve NEVER received any test equipment that has not been in a factory-sealed box.
Interesting.  Seems at odds with others' policies and observations ... perhaps there's a reason...?

Maybe this is it...
Quote
But -- we verify with distributors, before purchase, that the equipment will arrive in factory-sealed packaging.  Always.

Too obvious?

I know if I was running a dealership that did pre-sale checks and somebody explicitly asked for that, I'd happily oblige ... and if they asked why some feature or extra wasn't included, then I'd tell them.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 02:44:48 am by Brumby »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Off-hand I can think of examples where a dealer has opened stuff I've ordered:

When I bought my Brymen multimeter I ordered the version with gold probes. The dealer (Welectron) didn't have one in stock so they contacted me and asked if I'd accept an ordinary one with the probes swapped. I said yes and they obviously had to open the box and swap the probes. I assume the called me because the box they sent didn't match the contents.

It's what dealers do. I was happy, it avoided me waiting for two weeks for another unit to arrive from Taiwan.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Have I been sent a used or refurbished Saelig oscilloscope?
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2020, 06:59:05 am »
I don't know if it has previously been mentioned (because I haven't read the whole thread), but did you bother to just call the supplier and ask? They might be able to provide you a very reasonable explaination as to why they opened and re-sealed the carton. Many users here have provided very legitimate examples of what might have occurred.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Have I been sent a used or refurbished Saelig oscilloscope?
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2020, 10:35:28 am »
If you guys were to go out and buy an iPhone or an xbox or any other piece of electronics you would expect that the reseller, such as Walmart would NOT open the package to upgrade your phones firmware to check to see if the charging cable is there or whatever. They are a reseller and as such it is not their job to open up packages for any reason.

In general it is extremely extremely common for resellers to open retail packaging and reseal it.

Common reasons are
- Replacing mains power cables with correct local type, because they bulk ordered from a different country as it was cheaper, even with the plug replacement cost.
- Changing the mains switch on the back from 110V to 220V or vise versa (less common these days, but still happens)
- Removing warranty sheets that do not apply to the local country of sale (They may get in legal trouble if the paper inside says 5 year warranty in country X but they are in country Y and get 2 year, Especially if a customer takes them to court saying that it says 5 years)
- Adding warranty sheets for local country
- Adding product safety sheets (some countries have regulatory requirements that products like space heaters come with a warning about using them correctly, that sort of thing)
- Recording the unit serial number. This is often on the outside of the box but not always, sometimes they need to open the box to record the S/N.
- Applying software unlocks - They may sell 3 different scope models but the differentiation requires applying a software unlock code. So they may open it to do this.
- Checking that all the bits are there. Retailers will try to negotiated the lowest price but they may a pay for that with higher faulty units or missing items. So they may check this to avoid passing it on to the customers. 


You can say that the manufacturer should be doing this before supplying it, and ideally yes. But
The retailer may have negotiated a unit discount and in return the units are shipped in a more generic configuration to save the manufacture some time.
The manufacture might ship 100 units, all the same, plus one box full of option accessories that can be placed in each box by the retailer to turn them into different models. etc..
« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 10:41:15 am by Psi »
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Offline mfro

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Re: Have I been sent a used or refurbished Saelig oscilloscope?
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2020, 10:50:18 am »
I wouldn't try and talk him into keeping the item too much.

The behaviour he showed makes me belief all (real and imaginary) future problems with the device will be originating from the resealed package. Then it will be entirely our fault...
 

Offline coromonadalix

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Re: Have I been sent a used or refurbished Saelig oscilloscope?
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2020, 11:03:19 am »
I work for an international company

Our politics are,  you update everything, HW or FW,  do all the run checks,  if you had/have opened a box, the old opened box is simply purely trashed, and we ship it into a new and fully sealed box with our labelled company on the tape, we never ever cross brands or show them under any circumstances, we have many models boxes with the same sizes for our different models.  And yes it take lots of space to store them ...

And  yes in the past we had situations  like the OP had or is having ...     If its a rebuilt, or a recertified machine,   its the same thing,  we put it in a new box, but the model sticker will say it a recertified / refurbish item.
 

Offline coromonadalix

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Re: Have I been sent a used or refurbished Saelig oscilloscope?
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2020, 11:09:05 am »
I wouldn't try and talk him into keeping the item too much.

The behaviour he showed makes me belief all (real and imaginary) future problems with the device will be originating from the resealed package. Then it will be entirely our fault...

Could be ??   do you see this as a breach of thrust ?? receiving this box  would personally make me uneasy .... untill     i check everything to be sure it's okay, afterwards  i would let it go, 

But  im not the OP  and i know now there is tons of rebranded units under so many names ... it's a total mess. Just seeing a known meter brand under 3 or 4 names loll
 

Offline mcinque

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In most cases you would have no idea what firmware version a product comes with. Why wouldn't anyone want the latest version installed?
Stock can sit around for months in the distribution system, and firmware can be quite out of date before it gets to you.
In the cases being discussed here we are talking about authorised dealers.
Totally agree, but let the customer decide. If I find the box opened and closed, I'll know it was for a reason. And for flyers or stickers: for me there is no added value doing that, it's just annoying. Someone just don't want stickers or else, someone just want to break the manufacturer seal. If you want to provide support to the client, use e-mail, we're in 2020.

Furthermore, authorized resellers are not always service centers; I met at least two authorized dealers here who had no in-house technicians and had no idea how the product they were selling worked... when I had a doubt about the specs of the instrument they never knew what to tell me and just contacted the manufacturer (I could do it too)
They were authorized but only dealers, pack movers. How can I expect them to know what to do and what not to do on sensitive equipment?

This in my opinion.
 


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