Handheld meter robustness testing

[saturation]

I see it also many small functional faults add up to big ones, as the 'small' ones show lack of attention to detail particularly in a functional item like choice of transient protection device.  By itself it many mean nothing, e.g. the switch failure, but if you look closer you'll see other issues not just in one model, but probably in the whole model line. 

[Fungus]

I would guess skeptics will be skeptics no matter the amount of data or how it is presented.  Did we fake the moon landings, is the Earth really flat, did man make dinosaur bones and bury them to dig up later.

I could come up with a label for people who believe those things but it wouldn't be "skeptics".

[joeqsmith]

I see it also many small functional faults add up to big ones, as the 'small' ones show lack of attention to detail particularly in a functional item like choice of transient protection device.  By itself it many mean nothing, e.g. the switch failure, but if you look closer you'll see other issues not just in one model, but probably in the whole model line.

Agree.  If the Gossen I looked at for example was only sensitive to RF, I would consider looking at another.  The reality is the meter has several problems and the company's poor communications have cemented their place.   It just takes too much of my time to look at them in the depth I have been.

I would guess skeptics will be skeptics no matter the amount of data or how it is presented.  Did we fake the moon landings, is the Earth really flat, did man make dinosaur bones and bury them to dig up later.

I could come up with a label for people who believe those things but it wouldn't be "skeptics".

Label me as you like but I am a skeptical of using a resistor to evaluate a meters overall performance.   

...
I started looking at a new meter and am planning to just make one video for it.   It now has a little over 24 hours of cycle time on the rotary switch.   

[rsjsouza]

The mystery and the suspense are killing me! 

[lem_ix]

I did ask him to run his own test on the Keysight meter.   This one is 2 years old and gets 10s of thousands of cycles yearly. 

https://youtu.be/_EQdxZK0yHw

Claims you need a process to comment on something yet rambles on without one of his own. In my old uni robotics club there was a 5$ meter that lasted for several years of student (ab)use and international tool box travel. Doesn't exactly make it a great and safe meter. Keysight may have some great products but that doesn't make them s**t gold. To be honest their whole push into the DMM market seems poor considering Fluke is their opponent. The only way to win against them is to give a lot more for the same/less amount of $. More on topic just keep blowing up those meters and play with the remains, for those that want to watch the relevant info is there.

Also Thanks for all the vids

[joeqsmith]

I did ask him to run his own test on the Keysight meter.   This one is 2 years old and gets 10s of thousands of cycles yearly. 

Claims you need a process to comment on something yet rambles on without one of his own. In my old uni robotics club there was a 5$ meter that lasted for several years of student (ab)use and international tool box travel. Doesn't exactly make it a great and safe meter. Keysight may have some great products but that doesn't make them s**t gold. To be honest their whole push into the DMM market seems poor considering Fluke is their opponent. The only way to win against them is to give a lot more for the same/less amount of $. More on topic just keep blowing up those meters and play with the remains, for those that want to watch the relevant info is there.

Also Thanks for all the vids

Glad you are enjoying the the videos.  I have a fair amount of HP equipment and bought two of their bench meters many years back new.  Both of these have never giving me any problems.  I would buy another bench meter from Keysight but I don't see running another one of their handheld meters.       

Most people that have been following along will know I basically test all the meters the same.   I suspect he was just new to it all and felt the need to chime in without watching.  Funny he felt the need to make a video after I called him out.  People in general don't like seeing the products that they purchased perform poorly.   They need to justify their choices which I assume is also partly why he made the video.  The best part was where he talks about me repairing the meter.   That was pure gold.   Removing the contact that rides over the damaged area of the circuit board is not what I would consider a repair.   I'm pretty sure most people who watch my videos would know that. 

If you like seeing sparks, I have been working on a new review you may enjoy.   So stay tuned.   

[bitseeker]

People in general don't like seeing the products that they purchased perform poorly.   They need to justify their choices

Yeah, funny that. I own several Keysight handheld DMMs. As with any tool, it's good to know what they're poor at as well as what they're good at.

If you like seeing sparks, I have been working on a new review you may enjoy.   So stay tuned.

I shall, as always.

[joeqsmith]

Harbor Freight's CEN-TECH 95670, the rebranded E0SUN EM129 automotive meter. 

https://youtu.be/Z2Tx0smuu8U

[Fungus]

Most people that have been following along will know I basically test all the meters the same.   I suspect he was just new to it all and felt the need to chime in without watching.  Funny he felt the need to make a video after I called him out.  People in general don't like seeing the products that they purchased perform poorly.   They need to justify their choices which I assume is also partly why he made the video.  The best part was where he talks about me repairing the meter.   That was pure gold.   Removing the contact that rides over the damaged area of the circuit board is not what I would consider a repair.   I'm pretty sure most people who watch my videos would know that. 

Was that the actual "response" video or is there more to come?

When you mentioned he was working on a "response" video I expected a video with an actual actual response. The one posted here just seemed like a precursor to the real thing.

Say it ain't so.

[joeqsmith]

Most people that have been following along will know I basically test all the meters the same.   I suspect he was just new to it all and felt the need to chime in without watching.  Funny he felt the need to make a video after I called him out.  People in general don't like seeing the products that they purchased perform poorly.   They need to justify their choices which I assume is also partly why he made the video.  The best part was where he talks about me repairing the meter.   That was pure gold.   Removing the contact that rides over the damaged area of the circuit board is not what I would consider a repair.   I'm pretty sure most people who watch my videos would know that. 

Was that the actual "response" video or is there more to come?

When you mentioned he was working on a "response" video I expected a video with an actual actual response. The one posted here just seemed like a precursor to the real thing.

Say it ain't so.

I have no idea.  I watched the three mentioned and the first one was more than enough for me personally.  The way they were spouting off, I was really expecting more from them.   Maybe the meter tied to a rope pulled behind the boat test or   what about the meter tied to a rope and pulled down the stairs or dropped?  Now that's entertaining.      I would just check their channel or subscribe if you are interested in seeing more of their content. 

[Fungus]

Maybe the meter tied to a rope pulled behind the boat test or   what about the meter tied to a rope and pulled down the stairs or dropped?  Now that's entertaining.

A really comprehensive test suite would also include the snow test and the dropped off the roof test.

Oh wait, it looks like their 'channel' had a new video uploaded in the last 24 hours. I might watch it later so see how thorough they are.

[rsjsouza]

Joe, another great video. The only thing going for this meter is the mechanical robustness of the rotary switch. Everything else is pretty terrible...

I liked the chemical test at the end.

[Fungus]

Message removed, see below...

[joeqsmith]

Joe, another great video. The only thing going for this meter is the mechanical robustness of the rotary switch. Everything else is pretty terrible...

I liked the chemical test at the end.

I have a few friends who also liked the chemical test as well.  I've damaged a few this way over the years and know of others who have as well.  The one used Fluke 97  I have had some sort of chemical damage as well.  I was out of brake cleaner or I would have tried it.   

$30 for a 2000 count meter that is manual ranging , not TRMS,  has an unfused 10A circuit,  no separate continuity mode so it always beeps in low ohms range,  reads 2 X DC voltage in AC ranges and what gets me is it can't even handle the basic engine signals I would normally use which is really the whole point of buying it in the first place.

[joeqsmith]

I watched the three mentioned and the first one was more than enough for me personally.  The way they were spouting off, I was really expecting more from them.

I just watched the 'review' video. Lots of talking and reassurances, strangely light on facts.

I did learn a couple of things though:

..........

Overall I'm just perplexed by this video. What exactly was the point of it? He likes his Agilents?

Footnote: I feel slightly bad criticizing. My own videos are far from perfect or in-depth and deeply knowledgeable like Joe's are, he's free to poke fun at them if he wants to (just like Joe does). I wouldn't have said anything except that his video is supposedly aimed directly at this thread.

   Well, I want to personally thank you for taking the time to sit through it and posting a summary.  If it was anything like the first two, it was longer than it needed to be and I commend you for making it all the way through.   

He was fine trying to shoot holes in my videos until I called him out.   I assume the point would have been to show how my video was flawed by repeating the tests on a second meter.  It sounds like he failed to convince you.   After seeing the SANWA videos, I'm not too surprised to hear he would not show the insides.  He may just not feel comfortable doing something like that.   

He's aware of the EEVBLOG site and is certainly free to join the discussion if he feels he has something to add.   

[Metermeister]

  I think is very sad to criticize another reviewer. I'm bipartisan. I feel no obliged to camp in any one particular tent. Im grateful others can review hardware no matter how good or bad presentation may be. I did learn more from his video than Joes. JOE is very thorough on teardown and input protection but very lack on meter specifics.We should respect everyone. And if think you can do better than best show.

[Fungus]

I think is very sad to criticize another reviewer.

Me, too, but this "review" was supposedly a smackdown aimed directly at this thread so I consider it fair game. It's not like I called him names in the Youtube comments section or anything.

You make say, "Stick to the facts, not opinions", but there really weren't any. Even the 'informative' parts were a shambles, eg. the part where he showed us how to turn the music off took him three or four attempts before he actually managed it.

PS: Did you watch it?

[Fungus]

Message removed, see below.

[Metermeister]

Me thinks you are wrong. He could have edit the meter setup but chose not to, I prefer that honesty. He demonstrated trigger hold which I had no idea existed with such cheapmeter. I say it again..easy to live in glass house but not if you throww stones. I embrace all reviewers is not easy to do I am sure.

[joeqsmith]

I think is very sad to criticize another reviewer. I'm bipartisan. I feel no obliged to camp in any one particular tent. Im grateful others can review hardware no matter how good or bad presentation may be. I did learn more from his video than Joes. JOE is very thorough on teardown and input protection but very lack on meter specifics.We should respect everyone. And if think you can do better than best show.

I've received some very helpful criticism, then again the vast majority is more on the trolling level as I suspect they lack the technical background,   "Cat is spelled with a "C" not a "K" you idiot".  Anymore, I typically just flush the trolls and move on.   There have also been cases where the criticism was based on a lack of understanding and many times both people walk away being better.  A recent example was a few people were questioning the how I was presenting the data I collected.  I assume there are others so I changed how it was being shown to help clarify.   Pointing out that I should have used the HOLD function when doing side by side comparisons and changing the white balance is all very helpful feedback.   The content improves because of this.  Of course I am not implying that I act on all the feedback I receive. 

[joeqsmith]

Me thinks you are wrong. He could have edit the meter setup but chose not to, I prefer that honesty. He demonstrated trigger hold which I had no idea existed with such cheapmeter. I say it again..easy to live in glass house but not if you throww stones. I embrace all reviewers is not easy to do I am sure.

Good point.  Could you please provide a link to your reviews?  I am interested in seeing them.  Thanks.

[rsjsouza]

Me thinks you are wrong. He could have edit the meter setup but chose not to, I prefer that honesty. He demonstrated trigger hold which I had no idea existed with such cheapmeter. I say it again..easy to live in glass house but not if you throww stones. I embrace all reviewers is not easy to do I am sure.

As Fungus have said, the specific videos were done to counteract a claim presented at joe's tests - the lack of a fundamental scientific method reduces the value of their own videos and therefore the criticism is warranted.

Despite, blank statements like yours to "embrace all reviewers" only shields them from receiving *polite* and *founded* criticism that could improve their experience. Content producers *live* in a glass house and can throw pebbles here and there from time to time - nothing of concern when you also take as part of life that you will have to clean the occasional shattered glass on the floor. I have experienced that myself a few times as youtuber and *many* times in life.

[Fungus]

I've removed my earlier comments purely one the grounds that he doesn't appear to be around to defend himself, it doesn't feel right to say that stuff in his absence. I'll be happy to say it to his face if he starts posting messages here.

Basically he doesn't appear to know much about multimeters (eg. the difference between latching/non-latching continuity testers) or anything about testing methodology (his video is in no way a rebuttal of joe's).

A rebuttal video would at least have taken apart his "old" meter to inspect it for cracks in the switch mechanism as seen in joe's video. That wasn't done.

Mostly the video is a waste of time, you won't learn anything by watching it, my opinion of Agilent meters was lowered by watching it.

The only thing the meter appears to have going for it is a cal certificate but he appears to lend far to much weight to that, eg. does the certificate still have any legal weight if the meter falls on the floor? I'm sure Joe could invalidate that certificate in seconds.

[Fungus]

There is a possible flaw in joe's testing of the Agilent. The dial may be turning slowly enough not to heat up the PCB but it might be fast enough to build up heat in whatever plastic Agilent is using in their clickers.

[joeqsmith]

There is a possible flaw in joe's testing of the Agilent. The dial may be turning slowly enough not to heat up the PCB but it might be fast enough to build up heat in whatever plastic Agilent is using in their clickers.

With 100% certainty, rotating the switch at any speed will build heat in the plastic parts.   I doubt the few degrees the plastic changes would be enough to have an effect.  Maybe I just happened to find a mechanical resonance.   The other parts in the meter are fine.  I wonder If I could buy a few of the springs to run some different checks on them.  They may even use a different material now.  Hard to say.  Too bad Keysight has no interest in joining or we may actually learn something.