Poll

Are you interested in seeing more handheld meters tested?

This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
3 (6.4%)
 Yes, I would like to more meters tested.
44 (93.6%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.  (Read 509599 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5473
  • Country: us
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2325 on: January 18, 2018, 04:45:21 am »
Joe, not that I'm trying to batter with questions here, but do you have criteria for which contact to choose? My hunch on the numbers is that distance from the vertex may affect settling times (say, measuring during a detent sliding contacts into a rest position). I'm confident you're measuring during actuator pauses, but does your sample delay increase if a meters sample point is farther out on the radius?

Also, what have you noticed in general about meters with double contact points (ie: not just resistance, but track wear depth and fragility?)

** Edit: eg: meters similar to this one..

Let's start with your question about the multicontact wiper.  What meter was it that I looked at that had this design?  How did it perform?   I think if you answer that first question you may find your answer.    That said, if you were interested in large studies, I would look towards the automotive industry and the US military.   I would recommend looking at variable resistors as well to learn about it.   I certainly would not gleam anything about the contact designs or lubrication from the little testing I have done.  I do believe we are seeing some trends in the quality of the switch based on brand but even that is too early to say.

About the settling time.  You are correct in that I do not attempt to read the resistance while the switch is in motion.  The motor does have a settle time and it detects when it is done moving.  I also wait a fixed time and then the meter itself has to settle out as well.  But when you only rotate every three seconds or so, there is plenty of time to let things settle.  There would never be a reason to try and speed things up.  It's not a sprint, its a several day marathon.  Again, running them too fast, you may find the plastic will start to build heat.  It's interesting to see how fast and how many cycles Brymen runs compared with my swag. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean, Cliff Matthews

Offline Cliff Matthews

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1752
  • Country: ca
    • General Repair and Support
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2326 on: January 18, 2018, 06:44:52 am »
By swag, you mean the Metrahit produkt? :-DD  So you select the set of traces with fewest via's then?
 

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5473
  • Country: us
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2327 on: January 18, 2018, 10:58:27 am »
Swag in this context meaning a stab in the dark or wild guess.   The Gossen is bling. 

Are you asking how I determine which set of contacts to use?  The first thing I want  is to be able to read it when the switch is at one side or the other.   Some rotate 360 so then it does not matter so much.   I try to look for contacts that I can tack into without disturbing anything or adding heat to the switch.  I also like to find contacts with a lot of surface area.  Basically, I don't want a short pad in case the wiper cuts all the way through it.   In the end, when that has happened, everything had major damage so I doubt it really matters too much.   

We also have the visual data to go along with it. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean, Cliff Matthews

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5473
  • Country: us
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2328 on: January 21, 2018, 06:34:37 am »
The Brymen BM839.   More info on this meter may be found at:
http://www.brymen.com/PD02BM830_839.html

https://youtu.be/bNzd5wo6FWU
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB, tautech

Offline Cliff Matthews

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1752
  • Country: ca
    • General Repair and Support
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2329 on: January 21, 2018, 07:13:07 am »
Yikes! Now that's a porn shot! You must have taken all night to render too (not to mention shoot it). Nobody does it like Joe - period.
 
The following users thanked this post: joeqsmith

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1811
  • Country: hr
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2330 on: January 21, 2018, 08:07:29 am »
Price of BM839 in Welectron (Germany) is 150€ (no Vat)... It is actually more expensive than BM867, that is 133€ (no Vat)... I don't see it as a better than BM867... Funny...
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9650
  • Country: 00
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2331 on: January 21, 2018, 10:23:35 am »
Does this mean we get to add another 100,000 cycles to the Brymen and Fluke 17B+?

Duel to the death!

PS: Did the Fluke's switch wipers go under the Microscope? It's not in the original video.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 10:41:16 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1752
  • Country: ca
    • General Repair and Support
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2332 on: January 21, 2018, 10:36:01 am »
No need. Just have blind faith, Fluke's contacts are certified to hold up during nuclear shock waves!  :-DD
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9650
  • Country: 00
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2333 on: January 21, 2018, 10:39:36 am »
No need. Just have blind faith, Fluke's contacts are certified to hold up during nuclear shock waves!  :-DD

The Fluke will win easily if the contact resistance graphs are any indication.  :popcorn:
 

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5473
  • Country: us
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2334 on: January 21, 2018, 12:05:16 pm »
If there is a contest, the Keysight meter would win some sort of award for their design.   The mark of true quality right here.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline kalel

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 880
  • Country: 00
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2335 on: January 21, 2018, 09:46:53 pm »
The UT210E's added bandwidth was enough to get the video flagged for copyright infringement.  The sound quality has improved beyond what the UT90A was capable of.   :-DD   
If they start to place adds on it, I will most likely remove it.

Can you use some music that doesn't trigger those things? There is "open" music (public domain or creative commons). That is, if you're interested in making such tests in the future, otherwise it really doesn't matter.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2365
  • Country: 00
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2336 on: January 22, 2018, 04:48:52 am »
I am happy that Brymen introduced a DMM powered by AA cells and with easy removable fuses. I noticed that the internal PCB is a bit unpopulated. Are there new improved meters coming?
On the other hand, the Brymen BM839 is not much feature wise.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 08:07:48 am by Hydrawerk »
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9650
  • Country: 00
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2337 on: January 22, 2018, 04:51:01 am »
Can you use some music that doesn't trigger those things? There is "open" music (public domain or creative commons). That is, if you're interested in making such tests in the future, otherwise it really doesn't matter.

There's actually some "Youtube friendly" music supplied by Google that you use. I assume there's no way that can be flagged.
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1752
  • Country: ca
    • General Repair and Support
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2338 on: January 22, 2018, 05:39:57 am »
If he has to re-post this 90min video again, he'll have to re-shoot the segment and render. What a pain! That was fair use of fast fingers!
(for keyboards, try this for fast http://bit.ly/2F2Hm3E8)
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1752
  • Country: ca
    • General Repair and Support
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2339 on: January 22, 2018, 10:29:21 am »
Wow.. Nothing can top that. I bet YT would never be able to identify that second guy - frigging awesome!
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7520
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2340 on: January 22, 2018, 04:37:49 pm »
I like the big bands and am a bit of a Buddy Rich fan myself.  Here with Gene Krupa and Sammy Davis Jr. 


Excellent! Amazing the good stuff you find on this forum. ;D
I TEA.
 

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5473
  • Country: us
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2341 on: January 23, 2018, 04:23:14 pm »
Having a wimpy meter may be alright for some people but not for me.   While testing has shown that my favorite meter can take a pretty big hit before it is damaged,  it just does not seem right that the cheep little ZT102 / AN8002 can out perform it. 

If you like wimpy meters, this next video is not for you but if you want to see my favorite meter step up it's game, stay tuned.   It's 14KV or BUST!!
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1752
  • Country: ca
    • General Repair and Support
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2342 on: January 23, 2018, 11:51:48 pm »
Having a wimpy meter may be alright for some people but not for me.   While testing has shown that my favorite meter can take a pretty big hit before it is damaged,  it just does not seem right that the cheep little ZT102 / AN8002 can out perform it. 

If you like wimpy meters, this next video is not for you but if you want to see my favorite meter step up it's game, stay tuned.   It's 14KV or BUST!!
Let me guess.. You could call it the yellow wonder. A totally potted Harbor Freight blue-light special?
 

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5473
  • Country: us
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2343 on: January 23, 2018, 11:57:36 pm »
It's had it's rotary switch cycled 50,000 times,  it's swam with the fishes and it has been exposed to transient levels that damaged it's input.   Can it survive a 14,000 volt transient with a $1.00 budget and no PCB changes?   Watch and find out. 

https://youtu.be/u9P4N5HPwf4
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
The following users thanked this post: tautech, Cliff Matthews, BroMarduk

Offline kcbrown

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 388
  • Country: us
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2344 on: January 24, 2018, 01:57:30 pm »
It's had it's rotary switch cycled 50,000 times,  it's swam with the fishes and it has been exposed to transient levels that damaged it's input.   Can it survive a 14,000 volt transient with a $1.00 budget and no PCB changes?   Watch and find out. 

https://youtu.be/u9P4N5HPwf4

$1 in parts and $10 million in engineering later ... :-DD


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5473
  • Country: us
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2345 on: January 25, 2018, 01:33:17 am »
$1 in parts and $10 million in engineering later ... :-DD
:-DD  :-+
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Scottjd

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 418
  • Country: us
    • YouTube Gadget Reveiws
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2346 on: January 25, 2018, 04:26:03 am »
$1 in parts and $10 million in engineering later ... :-DD
Just finished watching the video.  :popcorn:
Well those transistors are not cheap, maybe a little more then $1 for parts.
But the time spent in testing and engineering, the custom build generators, home made high voltage probe on the oscilloscope.
Hats off to you sir,  :clap: Truly a great accomplishment, and great work.

So what’s the lesson learned from this. Do they need to put better parts that are equal to or of higher value in front of the PTC’s and what they are rated for? So if the PTC is rated for X then why put transistors that can only handle C in front of them?
This kind of sounds like common sense now when I ask it like that. I’m not trying to over simplify it, but it might sound like that and I couldn’t figure another way to ask the questions.

That’s one impressive meter for sure, especially with the “Joe Touch” mod. Maybe you should start award levels now? The highest awarded would be to meet or exceed your modified meter testing results, but being stock with no mods or updated parts.

Questions, maybe a dumb one but I’ll ask it anyway.
First, how much can your high voltage scope probe handle, will you need to make a new one if meters start to handle more power then 15KV?

I recently tore down a dead USB QC capable power supply for a Lanova Yoga laptop and noticed spark gaps between the common mode choke on the AC input side. So I was wondering, what if they had still used the cheaper transitors but added some spark gaps on the PCB before them with proper insulation? Would or could this result in the same affect as the higher end transitors? Or am I thinking crazy thoughts?

Side Note: Great reference about USB switch mode power supplies. I found this page full of good information. Since I never repaired a USB power supply (or any power supply) I went searching and found this page to be full of good info:http://lygte-info.dk/info/SMPS%20workings%20UK.html

Thanks again for all the hard work, great testing and time spent editing and doing these videos.
Maybe now it’s time to take a break.  :phew:
Scott
Please be sure to check out my YouTube channel and subscribe if you like the videos. https://www.youtube.com/c/GadgetReviewVideos

By people subscribing and giving thumbs up I know what I am doing is still wanted and adding value, then will continue to release new videos. Thank you for your support.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9650
  • Country: 00
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2347 on: January 25, 2018, 04:39:20 am »
So what’s the lesson learned from this. Do they need to put better parts...

The CAT rating for this meter goes up to 8000 volt transients, the parts currently in the meter meet those requirements (presumably - I know Joe's tests aren't the same as a real CAT rating test) so there's no requirement to replace them.

Joe's just showing off by making it into a 12kV+ meter.  :popcorn:

(and learning...)
 

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5473
  • Country: us
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2348 on: January 25, 2018, 04:44:39 am »
Joe's just showing off by making it into a 12kV+ meter.  :popcorn:

(and learning...)
Always learning.... 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5473
  • Country: us
Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2349 on: January 25, 2018, 05:15:36 am »
$1 in parts and $10 million in engineering later ... :-DD
Just finished watching the video.  :popcorn:
Well those transistors are not cheap, maybe a little more then $1 for parts.

So what’s the lesson learned from this. Do they need to put better parts that are equal to or of higher value in front of the PTC’s and what they are rated for? So if the PTC is rated for X then why put transistors that can only handle C in front of them?

That’s one impressive meter for sure, especially with the “Joe Touch” mod. Maybe you should start award levels now? The highest awarded would be to meet or exceed your modified meter testing results, but being stock with no mods or updated parts.

Questions, maybe a dumb one but I’ll ask it anyway.
First, how much can your high voltage scope probe handle, will you need to make a new one if meters start to handle more power then 15KV?

....
Thanks again for all the hard work, great testing and time spent editing and doing these videos.
Maybe now it’s time to take a break.  :phew:

As stated, my cost was under $1 w/ tax.

PTCs are before the transistors, not after.   Meters will be different.  If we are talking about this one specifically, you have the PTC in series with the two resistors.  Again, the PTC is not going to do much of anything beyond act as a resistor in the HV transient tests.  If in resistance mode for example, we have the drop of the clamp.  Basically nothing.  Then you need to consider the transient.  It's not a matter of just looking at the voltages present.  I know I get a fair number of MOT and DC comments from people but the reality is this is not at all what we are looking at. 

I doubt when a company like Brymen designs a meter they are thinking we need to meet the JQS transient tests and survive.  They will design around what ever standards they want to meet and use what ever internal best practices they have come up with.  From what I have seen, companies all follow the same basic concepts.  It's all fairly well understood.  I can't understand why a brand new meter like the 121GW for example would not be very robust.  If you have watched some of my videos, it's not a lot of added cost. 

I have a playlist for the home made HV probes, linked below.  I called it 40KV but I've ran tests far above that to make sure it was not going to be a problem.  You mention power rather than voltage.  I assume a mistake in terms but If you watch the videos, I do talk about the life of the parts based on how hard you run them.   It may be shorter than you think.   

Break??  lol.  I make the videos for the fun of it.  I don't ask for handouts and rarely accept meters to run.  If I need a break, that means I have lost interest and it's no longer fun.  When that time comes, I will just stop making them.  Growing the channel and making money was never part of it.   

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZSS2ajxhiQCAQ6gIp6s-WoKiIEb1gHPD
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf