Poll

Are you interested in seeing more handheld meters tested?

This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
3 (6.4%)
 Yes, I would like to more meters tested.
44 (93.6%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.  (Read 502484 times)

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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2875 on: October 18, 2018, 06:24:26 am »
Near the bottom of the PDF datasheet it says EC61010-1, IEC61010-2-030, IEC61010-2-33, IEC61010-31

There is no certification approval from any agency if the meter is self certified by the manufacturer. IME Japanese manufacturers seem to refrain from using third parties for that. Joe's Hioki, for example, only has a self-produced DoC that does not guarantee any third party certification. It does not mean it was not tested and certified, but you need to trust if the manufacturer has done it properly.

Thus the only claim that can be done is the manufacturer did not perform third party certification.
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2876 on: October 18, 2018, 07:09:57 am »
Only a government-accredited agency can evaluate and certify ("approve") to those safety standards, at least in North America.
No self-declaration is permitted there.

It's a long snakey path to follow safety legislation in any country, who is the "authority having jurisdiction", who makes it law that products have approvals. Once I had to convince an asshole CEO that safety approvals were required for some equipment and it was brutal in the USA. Several states do not have the National Electrical Code in effect so asshole CEO said you can sell anything (electrical) there and no need for engineering to worry  :palm: I almost lost my job refusing to sign/stamp that shit.

For multimeters it's certainly OSHA (at work) or corporate policy they have credible safety certifications.

The liability for a product failing a safety claim is what keeps most companies from selling gear with fake approvals. I see a few Japanese companies with no formal safety approvals, only claims to meet x standard.
 

Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2877 on: October 18, 2018, 08:43:17 am »
So that claims about safety standards are done internally by the company?

Well what about the reviewed on the pocket shootout by Dave , the Sanwa PM-3?

https://www.sanwa-meter.co.jp/prg_data/goods/img/PH61496794132.pdf

It has one safety standard ... but in the manual...

Code: [Select]
Safety: IEC 1010-1(EN61010-1)
≦DC・AC 500V: Designed to protection ClassII
requirement of IEC 1010-1, Pollution degree II.
EMC: EN50081-1 (EN55022), EN50082-1 (EN61000-4-2)
EN50082-1 (EN61000-4-3), EN50082-1 (ENV50204)

A ton of it ... source : http://www.mantech.co.za/datasheets/products/pm3_sanwa.pdf
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2878 on: October 18, 2018, 12:48:47 pm »
Only a government-accredited agency can evaluate and certify ("approve") to those safety standards, at least in North America.
No self-declaration is permitted there.
I am not sure if that changed, but my memory may be failing. A NRTL was usually required for UL or CSA 61010 approvals (other standards may be similar). Regardless, not everyone that sells these products is required to have an agency certification mark - only third party certification testing is necessary and a proper documentation must be available to the regulatory agencies.

It's a long snakey path to follow safety legislation in any country, who is the "authority having jurisdiction", who makes it law that products have approvals.
Precisely. It is quite hard to follow every single country out there. That is why companies tend to defer to third parties with Notified Bodies and certain places allow Harmonized standards. It tends to ease things across borders.

The liability for a product failing a safety claim is what keeps most companies from selling gear with fake approvals. I see a few Japanese companies with no formal safety approvals, only claims to meet x standard.
Yes, but it is all a CYA operation. If the company stands behind its own certification procedure, documentation and manufacturing control, the liability is entirely owned by them - otherwise, pass the baton to the third party. :)
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2879 on: October 18, 2018, 12:51:01 pm »
Joe, there are some interesting tests and information on the document below from National Instruments. A little outdated, but perhaps it gives you some idea for testing.

ftp://ftp.ni.com/pub/devzone/Safety.pdf
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 10:17:57 pm by rsjsouza »
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2880 on: October 18, 2018, 02:06:18 pm »
The proof is the product having a Certification Agency's sticker with logo and file number, or that in the owner's manual.
UL Certifications Directory
Intertek Product Directories

These directories list Brymen, Uni-Trend, Fluke, Mastech, Flir, Keithley, Klein, Keysight etc. multimeter safety certifications giving proof the product was tested and passed.

No sign of any listings for Sanwa Electric Instrument Co. Ltd.

If you want to fake safety approvals for your product, there are many strategies:

1. Use the term "designed to" in all documentation
Meaning the engineers had good intentions but did not test the result to any standard. The expression is a red flag for claims about safety because a design is not a test and you're in a conflict of interest anyhow, this is why third-parties are used.

2. Use old standards
Old, deprecated safety standards are simpler and much easier to meet.
IEC 1010 was from about 1988-1993, when 61010 superceded it.

3. "We have thousands in use and never had a problem"
The number of units sold and hours without incident mean the product is safe. What more proof do you want?

4. Get approvals from a small, unheard of, or inept certification agency
They are happy to take your money and fudge the results, after all they are not liable for testing only as they were instructed to.

As an engineer I have been through the wringer with corrupt CEO's and engineering/product managers, but also a certification agency happy to do the work but not actually qualified for the standard they claimed and pumped out stickers for. We could talk more about NRTL but there are always loopholes people exploit.

My position is the Sanwa multimeters are high quality builds but unknown as far as safety, misleading in their 61010 claims. I'd want to know there are no blatent design/assembly blunders making a clearance violation allowing unexpected arcing, for example.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2881 on: October 18, 2018, 02:15:29 pm »
Wow, someone still has an FTP site.   :-DD   Sorry but I can't get to it.  It won't answer a ping and FTP will timeout.   If you downloaded it and feel it could be of interest, just upload it on this site or put it on Googledocs.   You could also just describe the test/s you would like to see ran. 


Google shows the title as:
"PRODUCT SAFETY: Expanding Markets Mean ... - National Instruments"
North America. – National standards and laws (OSHA). – NRTL certifications, descriptive reports and N.A. Marks (UL/CSA). – UL/CSA standards similar to IEC
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2882 on: October 18, 2018, 02:27:32 pm »
Watched Dave's trash dive last night and saw a couple of small Schaffners.   Well he did come up with the toggle bot.  Maybe we will see some form of transient testing in the future.   

https://youtu.be/YX0MJjq9MuU?t=439

How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2883 on: October 18, 2018, 10:19:42 pm »
Wow, someone still has an FTP site.   :-DD   Sorry but I can't get to it.  It won't answer a ping and FTP will timeout.   If you downloaded it and feel it could be of interest, just upload it on this site or put it on Googledocs.   You could also just describe the test/s you would like to see ran. 


Google shows the title as:
"PRODUCT SAFETY: Expanding Markets Mean ... - National Instruments"
North America. – National standards and laws (OSHA). – NRTL certifications, descriptive reports and N.A. Marks (UL/CSA). – UL/CSA standards similar to IEC
I put the link directly, as the forum software was inserting bogus http:// stuff at the beginning of the link (it was also surprised about the fact a FTP site existed :D )
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2884 on: October 18, 2018, 10:33:02 pm »
The proof is the product having a Certification Agency's sticker with logo and file number, or that in the owner's manual.
UL Certifications Directory
Intertek Product Directories

These directories list Brymen, Uni-Trend, Fluke, Mastech, Flir, Keithley, Klein, Keysight etc. multimeter safety certifications giving proof the product was tested and passed.
That is where you are getting confused: the proof is not having a listing on a site but instead a statement or a test report that says so. You could potentially consult with them and obtain the latest test reports or statements of compliance (these do not need to be readily downloadable). The listing and agency mark is a product from one of these cert agencies and not a requirement enforced by regulatory agencies to have your product available for sale. Sure, you can make the case that having your product listed will help boost sales, especially in this market, but a company or a product that is not listed is not necessarily untested and does not necessarily fail to meet the regulation (UL/EN/CSA 61010 in this case).

My position is the Sanwa multimeters are high quality builds but unknown as far as safety, misleading in their 61010 claims. I'd want to know there are no blatent design/assembly blunders making a clearance violation allowing unexpected arcing, for example.
That is a fair assessment. Until you see the test document or declaration in front of you, you can't be sure.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline stj

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2885 on: October 18, 2018, 10:54:06 pm »
And if you think the harbor freight meter is bad , then check this:

https://youtu.be/R693vS09hoo

Lucky one on the mains :P

that's the one i posted some pictures of a week or 3 back while making comments about the 1mm clearance.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2886 on: October 19, 2018, 04:52:33 am »
Slide 18 for the suggestion of a test...  :-DD

Slides 21 ~ 23 as good references when you are analyzing or making modifications on a DMM.

Anyhow, I just thought it was nice how they presented the information. Quite clear in my opinion.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2887 on: October 19, 2018, 07:55:43 am »
I'm trying to keep it simple for owners and youtube reviewers of multimeters to check if the product is truly compliant, avoiding regulatory politics.

The certification directories and product labelling are reasonable proof of compliance. Although not completely, as ANENG only went for 3V in their 61010 assessment - true for the ohms and diode-test functions lol.

I've had customers such as refineries demand safety certifications for the electrical products I'm designing/selling. They would not purchase anything less, obviously due to the risk.

"... a company or a product that is not listed is not necessarily untested and does not necessarily fail to meet the regulation (UL/EN/CSA 61010 in this case).

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I don't agree - ma and pa can't test compliance to a safety standard in their garage, write up a report and say it's all good. Too much chance of corruption and mistakes.

OSHA list of NRTL's:
"A Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) is a private-sector organization that OSHA has recognized as meeting the legal requirements in 29 CFR 1910.7 to perform testing and certification of products using consensus based test standards. These requirements are:

    -The capability to test and evaluate equipment for conformance with appropriate test standards;
    -Adequate controls for the identification of certified products, conducting follow-up inspections of actual production;
    -Complete independence from users (i.e., employers subject to the tested equipment requirements) and from any manufacturers or vendors of the certified products; and
    -Effective procedures for producing its findings and for handling complaints and disputes.

An organization must have the necessary capability both as a product safety testing laboratory and as a product certification body to receive OSHA recognition as an NRTL."

I think the safety assessments done professionally end up listed and labelled.
 

Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2888 on: October 19, 2018, 08:37:03 am »
I have a question about a clamp meter Unit 204A that has intertek / ETL logo and a S.N. Number :P

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/?action=dlattach;attach=503906

From here it looks good but check this on the manual (see attachment) On the temperature sensor 1K resistor in series. You plug the meter into 230V in this mode and its bye bye...

So they may ommit some functions during the certification?
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2889 on: October 19, 2018, 08:44:14 am »
"... a company or a product that is not listed is not necessarily untested and does not necessarily fail to meet the regulation (UL/EN/CSA 61010 in this case).

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I don't agree - ma and pa can't test compliance to a safety standard in their garage, write up a report and say it's all good. Too much chance of corruption and mistakes.
That is fine. It is your opinion. It doesn't mean it is enforceable/applicable/true for all scenarios/countries/etc.

OSHA list of NRTL's: (...)
Yes, that is correct. We have established that US/Can is different than worldwide. What OSHA says is restricted to US.

Look, I have no horse in this race. I don't really care if Sanwa or Hioki or Uni-T or Aneng have tested their stuff or not - I am an enthusiast that happens to be involved professionally with this whole compliance deal (not test equipment). My attempt with this discussion is to clarify that the marketing product offered by certification agencies to promote compliance ("UL listed", "ETL", "TÜV Rheinland" markings) is not the only way to demonstrate a product's compliance and should not be a pre condition to dismiss a product in this area.

I think we sprinkled this thread with enough boring compliance stuff. I will refrain from replying on this subject. Peace.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2890 on: October 19, 2018, 08:47:25 am »
Slide 18 for the suggestion of a test...  :-DD

Slides 21 ~ 23 as good references when you are analyzing or making modifications on a DMM.

Anyhow, I just thought it was nice how they presented the information. Quite clear in my opinion.

It looks like this person updated their presentation in 2010.  Do a search for their name or that UL flame test.   They added a few pages.

I think I have melted a meter with a soldering iron before but I've never torched one.  I keep the Halon handy if that time ever presents itself.   :-DD
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2891 on: October 19, 2018, 08:48:15 am »
I have a question about a clamp meter Unit 204A that has intertek / ETL logo and a S.N. Number :P

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/?action=dlattach;attach=503906

From here it looks good but check this on the manual (see attachment) On the temperature sensor 1K resistor in series. You plug the meter into 230V in this mode and its bye bye...

So they may ommit some functions during the certification?

I wish I had access to a recent copy of the standard. That would better clarify this scenario.

AFAIK the CAT testing does not guarantee the survivability of the meter - only the survivability of the operator.

That is the sole reason why Joe's tests are so interesting - they give an idea of robustness but are too weak to test survivability (maximum he can get is a *poof* and not a *BOOOOOM*) :)
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2892 on: October 19, 2018, 09:14:51 am »
If I were experimenting at home with levels that could make a BOOOOM,  I may actually have some interest in safety.  Then again, my lab and power distribution would be much more interesting than it is!   :-DD
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2893 on: October 19, 2018, 09:19:48 am »
Looks like True stopped posting.
001 as well.  ;D

Joe, one interesting meter that you may consider testing in the future is the nice PM300 from Sanwa; it is rated for CATIV 300V / CAT III 600V and is quite well built. It is protected by a GDT and a Varistor on a string of resistors.


Think the SANWA would survive to higher levels than this little Brymen?  Did Dave do anything to it electrically in his reviews?   
Just a hunch but I suspect so, given that Sanwa is a very reputable japanese brand that would not lie about CAT ratings.

Dave did not put it through its paces, though.

Take your best guess where you feel the Brymen will fail.   I will consider a breakdown in an unintended area a failure.  It fits in a shirt pocket so things are pretty tight in there.   2KV?    What about the SANWA you mention?   Think it's double?  4KV? 

Based on what True posted, it may not even make it that far in the testing!   :-DD
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2894 on: October 19, 2018, 10:37:57 am »
Working with 230V isolated from mains, 6VA currently and it can put in a lot of trouble if safety is discarted. At least is documented on the meter's manual.


Guess for Brymen... pocket meters... disposable ... personal ut120c freezed when battery got low....  maybe with issue ESD wil take it out .

 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2895 on: October 19, 2018, 11:00:25 am »
1 vote for ESD
1 vote for > 6KV
   

This will be the sixth Brymen I have looked at in detail.  I've been very impressed with how well they have done.   I'm going to guess that it can survive at least to the levels my low voltage generator can put out.  So more than 6KV. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2896 on: October 19, 2018, 09:10:39 pm »
Wow there is a discrepancy between odds. It may be the version for the bad or good unit. If it survives 6kv then its a Brymen pocket meter well done. Maybe sanwa has some touch to it...

The setup of isolated 230v does not make boom but it can buzz the transformers or bad connections, eg v shape banana plugs.

If one can make knowledge flow than it will go from negative to positve , for real
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2897 on: October 19, 2018, 10:18:08 pm »
I purchased a new unit after my PM55A had failed, only to find a PM55 I gave to a friend also failed. I tested a PM55 I had and it too had failed. The replacement? Well, it tested good (testing 5V in auto mode, and shorting probes, that's it...); after a month when I went to use it to test a low voltage DC circuit again, it showed low battery ... and sure enough it failed too.

If True were still around, they may vote that it won't survive a basic functional test.   :-DD 

I've been running some low voltage, non-destructive tests, looking for some test case that would go along with what True posted.  At least four meters with the same failure mode, I should be able to replicate it.   Then again, maybe True was Trolling and there's no Truth in what was posted?   Hard to say but you can be assured that I will do my best to send this meter to the recycle bin.
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Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2898 on: October 19, 2018, 11:11:29 pm »
With that test we can see the meter in action. Trash bin? Pocket meters really after seeing my ut120c hang the lcd on low bat i believe that can happen if similar chipsets are being used.
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2899 on: October 20, 2018, 02:30:24 am »
I re-watched Dave's shootout and saw how electrically well built the Brymen was - although mechanically flawed. The Amprobes also took a beating, therefore my guess is that the little PM55A will fail at a higher level than the ESD gun. I would guess ≥6kV.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 


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