Poll

Are you interested in seeing more handheld meters tested?

This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
3 (6.4%)
 Yes, I would like to more meters tested.
44 (93.6%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.  (Read 530370 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3400 on: June 07, 2019, 06:02:07 pm »
Just thinking out load of a big finale for this thread...

Maybe you could find out how many volts it takes to zap a Fluke 101? It would need a beefed-up generator but that could be a fun challenge.  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 06:07:30 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3401 on: June 07, 2019, 11:42:26 pm »
Dave did not want to close it because it is a popular place to discuss power tools.    :-DD  I guess it ranks in the top 10??!!  I never would have guessed this. 

I didn't plan on doing anything more with it, which is why I was suggesting it be locked.  If I do some big finale, it will be to finally put that latest thicker PCB version of the 121GW through it's paces.   No place to hide this time around.    :-DD

I would like to do some sort of comparison with the pocket meter Dave is selling as well.  I beat the shit out of that Brymen pocket meter.  Maybe the Sanwa can handle that level of abuse....

No need for a beefed up generator as that work was done some time ago.  I suspect the 101 would e damaged around the same levels that finally damaged the 107.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline gnavigator1007

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3402 on: June 08, 2019, 01:44:50 am »
Really sad to hear these tests or at least this thread may be coming to an end. I'm mostly a lurker around the forum, but this has been one of my favorite threads for a long time. I'd personally hoped to see many more meters run. Perhaps as time goes on joeqsmith will find more he is interested in running or someone else will take it upon themselves to do more tests. One of the things I've always appreciated about Joe is his encouragement of others to run similar tests for themselves. I only wish I had the time, money, and honestly the skills to consistently do such methodical testing, but alas I'm a lowly hobbyist that is already outclassed by some of the equipment I own and too many gaps in knowledge to be beneficial to anyone. It has been fascinating, educational, and I'll forever be grateful to Joe for having shared this bit of his hobby with us. I have so much respect for him and the extent to which he has gone to satiate curiosity. It is frankly amazing.
 
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Offline MacMeter

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3403 on: June 08, 2019, 01:46:26 am »
I bought two of those Sanwas from Dave. Dare you to give one the full joeqsmith TREATMENT! :)
 
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3404 on: June 08, 2019, 11:05:09 am »
Well This thread is very popular due to the various tests on the meters, methods implied, documentation provided, some funny stuff.

Sanwa's are going to the robustness test? do you're best :P

Can i post the results using the modeled  dummy 9V battery for current draw and voltage shut down? this time using this setup, not sure if it is  the best :

- Power supply is a homemade Joy-it DPS5005 ( http://anleitung.joy-it.net/?goods=dps5005 ) box powered by a 12V SLAB battery, setup 9V to and current limit of 100mA (maybe too low ? ). The voltage will be ajusted to check the shutdown point of DUT ( uni-t ut204A , the battery hogger) and thus ignoring the battery indicator
- Measure of voltage shutdown point will be measured with multimeter to confirm with the power supply ( rounded to 1 decimal place)
- Current will be measured with another multimeter in series with power supply and one of the terminals of dummy battery.
- All connections between power supply , current measurement and dummy are banana jacks 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 12:28:14 pm by malagas_on_fire »
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Online windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3405 on: June 13, 2019, 09:13:40 pm »
I'm enjoying watching the thermal cycling videos.
Interesting how the different meters seem to react differently to temperature changes. 
Owon seemed to do poorly... wonder if that has anything to do with potential condensation on the board or components?

Also now I wonder what do those specs mean? 
DC Voltage, 869s, 500.00mV, 5.0000V, 0.02% + 2d

I saw the Brymen start at around 0.998mV, then go up to maybe 1.016mV, then down to 0.992mV

To calculate 0.02%, do you multiply that against the range? 500.00mV x (0.02/100) = 0.1mV?  Since the display shows down to 1uV, does "2d" mean + 2uV?
If measuring 1.000mV, then would it be in spec if the Brymen 869s showed anything between 1.102mV and 0.898mV?





 

Offline HKJ

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3406 on: June 13, 2019, 09:22:53 pm »
Also now I wonder what do those specs mean? 

I explain about multimeter specifications here: https://lygte-info.dk/info/DMMTolerances%20UK.html
Usual they are only valid between 18°C to 28°C, for each degree outside you must add some more tolerance.
 
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Online windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3407 on: June 13, 2019, 10:35:48 pm »
Also now I wonder what do those specs mean? 

I explain about multimeter specifications here: https://lygte-info.dk/info/DMMTolerances%20UK.html
Usual they are only valid between 18°C to 28°C, for each degree outside you must add some more tolerance.

Thank you, that's a nice explanations page you developed!

So, then for the Brymen 869s in the video, specs for the 500.00mV range is:
DC Voltage, 869s, 500.00mV, 5.0000V, 0.02% + 2d

And since this spec is for 50,000 count range, I think I need to drop the last digit from the 500,000 count readings shown in the video (is this correct?).

Since Joe is measuring 1.00mV (assumed), according to the spec, readings should be:
1.00mV x 0.02% = 0.0002mV, and add 2 counts of 0.01mV and you get 0.0202mV, or for the meter 0.02mV.

So to meet specs, the meter needs to show something between 1.020mv and 0.980mV... is this right?






 

Offline HKJ

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3408 on: June 14, 2019, 05:04:40 am »

So, then for the Brymen 869s in the video, specs for the 500.00mV range is:
DC Voltage, 869s, 500.00mV, 5.0000V, 0.02% + 2d

And since this spec is for 50,000 count range, I think I need to drop the last digit from the 500,000 count readings shown in the video (is this correct?).

Since Joe is measuring 1.00mV (assumed), according to the spec, readings should be:
1.00mV x 0.02% = 0.0002mV, and add 2 counts of 0.01mV and you get 0.0202mV, or for the meter 0.02mV.

So to meet specs, the meter needs to show something between 1.020mv and 0.980mV... is this right?

Yes, but again only in a limited temperature range, Joe goes well outside that range.
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3409 on: June 14, 2019, 02:01:20 pm »
From Page 17 of the BM869s manual:

Electrical Specifications
Accuracy is +/-(% reading digits + number of digits) or otherwise specified, at 23C +/- 5C &
less than 75% relative humidity.

Keep in mind that during the transition, all of the components may not track.  That difference can cause a fair amount of error and is why the meter is allowed to stabilize for a half hour.   There is a fair amount of air movement but even a half hour may not be enough to some of the meters to settle.   

Why push them way outside their rating?  I was asked this early on.  Pretty much the same reason I transient test them to failure. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3410 on: June 14, 2019, 02:48:59 pm »
Also remember in manual that the bigger temperature ranges refers to working and storage conditions :P

In the videos spotted some condensation which can increase humidity and could add up some digits, but brymen and uni-t are very stable in that test, so not  huge impact indeed.

Thanks for the tests provided. Did one of the meters  have become drifted after the test, for example the owon B41?
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3411 on: June 14, 2019, 02:59:36 pm »
Thanks for the tests provided. Did one of the meters  have become drifted after the test, for example the owon B41?

They all returned to normal after a day.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Online windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3412 on: June 14, 2019, 05:51:05 pm »
Yes, but again only in a limited temperature range, Joe goes well outside that range.

Yes I understand that... and yet the meter stayed in-spec regardless of the out-of-spec temperature (and condensation) condition, which is impressive.  I wonder if Flukes do as well... I'm guessing probably the industrial ones will (or maybe all?). 
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3413 on: June 14, 2019, 07:10:47 pm »
Thanks for the tests provided. Did one of the meters  have become drifted after the test, for example the owon B41?

They all returned to normal after a day.

Thats good news ohhh and the little pocket brymen / amprobe still functional for that testing... eehehehe ? That had a bad time for a lot of time :P Some of you're tests change  decision on the meter for develop things with triacs :P The little blue one .... otherwise would be ut61E
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3414 on: June 15, 2019, 05:21:08 pm »
Yes, but again only in a limited temperature range, Joe goes well outside that range.

Yes I understand that... and yet the meter stayed in-spec regardless of the out-of-spec temperature (and condensation) condition, which is impressive.  I wonder if Flukes do as well... I'm guessing probably the industrial ones will (or maybe all?).

Old Fluke 189
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3415 on: June 15, 2019, 05:59:24 pm »
Ohh crap was  the leads or input jacks ? Or is the default error message for anything bad ?
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3416 on: June 15, 2019, 08:27:07 pm »
Thanks for the reply joe. The meter is quite interesting from the manual perspective and also pdf with text is available.
 
Lets see how other fluke's perform... .. 87V , 17B+ and 115 if they are on the menu :P

If one can make knowledge flow than it will go from negative to positve , for real
 
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Online windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3417 on: June 15, 2019, 11:19:26 pm »
Ohh crap was  the leads or input jacks ? Or is the default error message for anything bad ?

Leads or Fuse error message pops up if you're not in the amps range dial with a lead in the amps input, or you're in the amps range and you have no lead in the amps input or you have a bad fuse.
I get that when I clean the input jack on my 189 with a Q-tip with too much rubbing alcohol, until it dries out.  I think the condensation shorted the amps range input sensor.

Its interesting that the 189 specs have a very wide operating temperature range of -20°C to +55°CC, and even gives you a temperature coefficient for measurement at <18 °C or >28 °C.      Such detail is probably one of the reasons Fluke has become a standard in U.S. Industry.   
It did seem to fall out of the 20 count spec for some duration... I'm guessing due to the condensation? I wonder what parts are affected by it... I'm guessing an analog part like the PTC?  Or more generally some current leak on the board in the analog input section.  I bet some insulating coating on the board can eliminate the condensation effect.
 


« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 11:29:53 pm by windsmurf »
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3418 on: June 16, 2019, 12:02:12 am »
It did seem to fall out of the 20 count spec for some duration... I'm guessing due to the condensation? I wonder what parts are affected by it... I'm guessing an analog part like the PTC?  Or more generally some current leak on the board in the analog input section.  I bet some insulating coating on the board can eliminate the condensation effect.


Keep in mind that during the transition, all of the components may not track.  That difference can cause a fair amount of error and is why the meter is allowed to stabilize for a half hour.   There is a fair amount of air movement but even a half hour may not be enough to some of the meters to settle.   

Put two thermometers outside, one in a glass of water the other in open air.  One will respond slower.  This delay can cause a fair bit of error and again is why I let them settle.       

In the mV range the input impedance of a crap meter is a Meg.  The PTC is about 1.5K.  Say the PTC changes 100%.  What's the total error it causes? 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Online windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3419 on: June 16, 2019, 12:13:34 am »

Put two thermometers outside, one in a glass of water the other in open air.  One will respond slower.  This delay can cause a fair bit of error and again is why I let them settle.       

In the mV range the input impedance of a crap meter is a Meg.  The PTC is about 1.5K.  Say the PTC changes 100%.  What's the total error it causes?

That makes sense... so definitely nothing to do with the PTC.  So in your opinion, do you think the error is caused more by uneven temperatures of the components, and less by condensation's effects on the board?   
 

Online windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3420 on: June 16, 2019, 01:20:43 am »

Old Fluke 189

Hi Joe I just noticed the low battery indicater is on, on the 189. 
That gets me thinking... are battery outputs changing with the temperatures, and how much of an effect that plays in the readings...

 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3421 on: June 16, 2019, 02:30:22 am »
The 189 predates the use of NiMH.  The lower voltage causes this meter, along with my camera and a few other devices to display a low battery.   This particular 189 will display a low battery at 4.89V.  At 4.5, it  will begin to flash and at 4.0 it cuts out.  With a mV applied, it will not change a count all the way down to cutout.   The batteries installed are EBL 2300.  The current voltage is 4.865.    So, no, this is not a problem.   


Quote
So in your opinion, do you think the error is caused more by uneven temperatures of the components, and less by condensation's effects on the board?   

When it comes to trying to solve problems, I find my opinions mean very little and data is pretty much everything.   :-DD   There are a few easy experiments that could be ran if we needed to sort it out.   The UT61E for example, drifted far worse.  It may have been the worse I have seen.  For less than the price of a coffee, I was able to tame it.  Then again, I wasn't considering my time having a cost.  If I did, the UT61E I have is worth a bit more than a standard one...   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3422 on: June 16, 2019, 03:23:47 am »
When it comes to trying to solve problems, I find my opinions mean very little and data is pretty much everything.   :-DD

Yes but I'd image you'd have an inclination based on your expert knowledge.   ;D

There are a few easy experiments that could be ran if we needed to sort it out.   The UT61E for example, drifted far worse.  It may have been the worse I have seen.  For less than the price of a coffee, I was able to tame it.  Then again, I wasn't considering my time having a cost.  If I did, the UT61E I have is worth a bit more than a standard one...

For our edification, may we know what you did to correct the UT61E drift issue?   :-/O

 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3423 on: June 16, 2019, 03:53:03 am »
It's good to know that the TOC was a waste of time. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3424 on: June 16, 2019, 04:38:43 am »
It's good to know that the TOC was a waste of time.

You'd mentioned this in many of your videos (also listed on post #1), so I guess it's an unbending rule ;D.   
 


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