Poll

Are you interested in seeing more handheld meters tested?

This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
3 (6.4%)
 Yes, I would like to more meters tested.
44 (93.6%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.  (Read 531108 times)

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Online windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3425 on: June 16, 2019, 04:51:33 am »
It's good to know that the TOC was a waste of time.

You'd mentioned this in many of your videos (also listed on post #1), so I guess it's an unbending rule ;D.   

My bad I thought you were referencing your FAQ about not disclosing many of your modifications.... you actually do have a video on the thermal stability mod  ;D
 


Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3427 on: June 16, 2019, 10:46:48 am »
Ohh crap was  the leads or input jacks ? Or is the default error message for anything bad ?

Leads or Fuse error message pops up if you're not in the amps range dial with a lead in the amps input, or you're in the amps range and you have no lead in the amps input or you have a bad fuse.
I get that when I clean the input jack on my 189 with a Q-tip with too much rubbing alcohol, until it dries out.  I think the condensation shorted the amps range input sensor.

Its interesting that the 189 specs have a very wide operating temperature range of -20°C to +55°CC, and even gives you a temperature coefficient for measurement at <18 °C or >28 °C.      Such detail is probably one of the reasons Fluke has become a standard in U.S. Industry.   
It did seem to fall out of the 20 count spec for some duration... I'm guessing due to the condensation? I wonder what parts are affected by it... I'm guessing an analog part like the PTC?  Or more generally some current leak on the board in the analog input section.  I bet some insulating coating on the board can eliminate the condensation effect.
 



One of the interesting things of the manual is there is no mention to water resistance and yes there were water resistant watches back then, but check in the Physical Specifications the humidity ranges , it seems to be high for it's time as i repeated (sorry for this )in a comment on youtube, so probably the meter was ahead of it's time when it was developed / presented. 

Check the specs for the first model of the 87V ... they are the same  in terms of temperature and humidity ranges

« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 10:52:57 am by malagas_on_fire »
If one can make knowledge flow than it will go from negative to positve , for real
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
« Reply #3428 on: June 16, 2019, 01:21:53 pm »
...A few good articles if you are interested:

Just FYI the 2nd and 3rd links didn't work for me.

Not surprised.  It's an old post and the internet is not constant.  If you are planning to keep an updated list for links on safety, here is one you may want to add:   
https://brainfiller.com/arcflashforum/

I'm a bit surprised with the amount of discussions on meter safety that no one took the lead to create a thread for it.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3429 on: June 16, 2019, 04:02:57 pm »
There is this thread but maybe it's nothing compared to what is discussed, tested here, since it is a specific target multimeter thread

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-list-of-multimeters-that-do-not-appear-to-meet-their-claimed-safety-specs/

Now to make one similiar as yours it would require someone maybe to build similar test jig, test equipment,DMM's,  skillset, etc Its a unique thread where you pick up something that was not yet explored at diy world on Handheld meters.


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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3430 on: June 16, 2019, 04:31:48 pm »
By the way here is an update for the battery testing on the UT204A in the DC 40 Amp's. Now there are not much of losses to care about from the previous experience with garbage crocodile cables :S 0.75m2 + crimped terminals + banana jacks .. 3.333 Ohms between power supply and meter. better measure voltage on input jacks with uni-t 50b ..[EDIT] its 8.97V on input jacks so it is much lower... need more resolution :D but this is an improvement.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 04:41:13 pm by malagas_on_fire »
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3431 on: June 16, 2019, 04:49:07 pm »
By the way here is an update for the battery testing on the UT204A in the DC 40 Amp's. Now there are not much of losses to care about from the previous experience with garbage crocodile cables :S 0.75m2 + crimped terminals + banana jacks .. 3.333 Ohms between power supply and meter. better measure voltage on input jacks with uni-t 50b ..[EDIT] its 8.97V on input jacks so it is much lower... need more resolution :D but this is an improvement.

here is the measurement taken on the input jacks with DUT , voltage is the same in both points .

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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3432 on: June 20, 2019, 10:39:30 pm »
Now this is a new thing.... a uni-t with two input jacks and inverted display.... ut123 ... is this the one who would lived up to the transient generator?
 It is so damn simple... a copy cat of some meter that we know...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/UNI-T-UT123-Digital-Color-Screen-High-Accuracy-Multimeter-for-Home-Industry-P2C9/382971551604?hash=item592ae21f74:g:FkcAAOSwbINc5rcR

... besides the ut210E which is in fact very good...
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 10:46:30 pm by malagas_on_fire »
If one can make knowledge flow than it will go from negative to positve , for real
 

Online windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3433 on: June 21, 2019, 12:42:38 am »
Ohh crap was  the leads or input jacks ? Or is the default error message for anything bad ?

Leads or Fuse error message pops up if you're not in the amps range dial with a lead in the amps input, or you're in the amps range and you have no lead in the amps input or you have a bad fuse.
I get that when I clean the input jack on my 189 with a Q-tip with too much rubbing alcohol, until it dries out.  I think the condensation shorted the amps range input sensor.

Its interesting that the 189 specs have a very wide operating temperature range of -20°C to +55°CC, and even gives you a temperature coefficient for measurement at <18 °C or >28 °C.      Such detail is probably one of the reasons Fluke has become a standard in U.S. Industry.   
It did seem to fall out of the 20 count spec for some duration... I'm guessing due to the condensation? I wonder what parts are affected by it... I'm guessing an analog part like the PTC?  Or more generally some current leak on the board in the analog input section.  I bet some insulating coating on the board can eliminate the condensation effect.
 



One of the interesting things of the manual is there is no mention to water resistance and yes there were water resistant watches back then, but check in the Physical Specifications the humidity ranges , it seems to be high for it's time as i repeated (sorry for this )in a comment on youtube, so probably the meter was ahead of it's time when it was developed / presented. 

Check the specs for the first model of the 87V ... they are the same  in terms of temperature and humidity ranges

I'm more convinced now that condensation on the board likely made the 189 go out of spec... the "Leads or Fuse error" should only ever occur with the dial in the amps measurement position.  Plugging a lead into the amps jack while in the voltage measurement causes a "Leads error" without the "of Fuse," so some kind of current leak around the dial wipers probably occurred.   

 

Online windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3434 on: June 22, 2019, 11:06:02 pm »
I'm more convinced now that condensation on the board likely made the 189 go out of spec... the "Leads or Fuse error" should only ever occur with the dial in the amps measurement position.  Plugging a lead into the amps jack while in the voltage measurement causes a "Leads error" without the "of Fuse," so some kind of current leak around the dial wipers probably occurred.

Thank you Joe for the new part 2 video with humidity enclosure and test, and pointing out it was a "Leads" error, indicating it detected a lead inserted in the amps jack, and not a "Leads or Fuse" error which should only happen with the dial in the amps section.   

So humidity probably did affect the meter in the 1st test with the jacks getting condensation and shorting the sensor.  Still not sure if it was the thermal differential or condensation that caused it to go out of spec in the 1st video but my hunch is, condensation played a role.  The 2nd test seemed to stay in spec enclosed in the ziplock... doing a resistance test which intuitively would be affected to a greater extent by condensation on the board.

I've seen some 87's and 189's input sensor malfunction due to moisture, or fail due to corrosion or debris/gunk between the board and the input jack assembly so that seems to be a weak spot of Flukes where moisture can get trapped.
 


 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3435 on: June 24, 2019, 01:28:34 am »
No problem.  Its one of those things that we could all guess and be fairly confident that it was moisture causing it but it was easy enough to try this simple test. 

I doubt you would find many cases where people are trying to take measurements when the temperature is not stable.   Well, that is when you are looking for very small effects.   

One thing is certain and that is the box with the stacked peltiers will drive these meters with the camera to much lower temperatures than I could previously reach.  In the end, that was my goal. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3436 on: August 27, 2019, 12:07:46 pm »
I doubt I will try and confirm this but if it's true, it's been a long time coming.   To be clear, Gossen has never contacted me about this meter beyond the original posts. 

If they have changed the design, it's too bad they didn't send me one.  I would have repeated all my tests on it, including running RF susceptibility ($$$+++).   They could have redeemed themselves, at least in my eyes.   

One thing it shows is that one competent EE with a tiny channel but with honest, detailed reviews can actually get a company like Gossen to make a change.   That's the only time, but I'll take it.   :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf_9XWL3TD8&lc=z225ulhytqmfe5jro04t1aokgym3ty4x4pxmdgdysnmlbk0h00410.1566905126264437
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline MacMeter

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3437 on: August 27, 2019, 12:25:27 pm »
I doubt I will try and confirm this but if it's true, it's been a long time coming.   To be clear, Gossen has never contacted me about this meter beyond the original posts. 

If they have changed the design, it's too bad they didn't send me one.  I would have repeated all my tests on it, including running RF susceptibility ($$$+++).   They could have redeemed themselves, at least in my eyes.   

One thing it shows is that one competent EE with a tiny channel but with honest, detailed reviews can actually get a company like Gossen to make a change.   That's the only time, but I'll take it.   :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf_9XWL3TD8&lc=z225ulhytqmfe5jro04t1aokgym3ty4x4pxmdgdysnmlbk0h00410.1566905126264437

Of course they won’t send you a revised meter, they don’t want you to find any more issues!
GREAT job, watched the old video again, amazing amount of custom work as well as testing and of course your own, unpaid time and labor. But in the end.... CONGRATULATIONS on getting a bit of satisfaction.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3438 on: August 27, 2019, 11:21:50 pm »
If they used NETIC as claimed, and basically replicated my changes, it's hard to believe I would have found anymore problems.   Then again, had they sent me one, I may have ran the 50,000 life cycle test on the rotary switch.  It would have been the first time I running one with a shutter.   So maybe your right.   

Maybe one day we may see another company as confident as Brymen is with their products.   Confidence comes from testing and with the high end Gossen being released with such blatant problems, maybe they just don't do a lot of testing.    Hard to say.  Hope they made the changes.  Hope the relays no longer change states with a simple hanger next to them.   Hope we saved someones life. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3439 on: August 28, 2019, 01:31:46 pm »
If the assertion it true, it took them 1-1/2 years to silently release the fix. taking into account the change in manufacturing and compliance tests, I feel this took a bit longer than expected, but oh well. 

My suspicion is similar to yours: they buried their head on the sand until one of their big customers that did not suffer from "Joe derangement syndrome" reported the same issue.  :-DD

Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3440 on: August 28, 2019, 04:53:30 pm »
The last time I wrote them directly, the German office sent me back to the US distributor.   After the way the distributors behaved, I see no reason to go down that path again.   You want to talk about a total lack of integrity.   

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1221413/#msg1221413
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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