Poll

Are you interested in seeing more handheld meters tested?

This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
3 (6.4%)
 Yes, I would like to more meters tested.
44 (93.6%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.  (Read 508619 times)

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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3425 on: June 16, 2019, 02:51:33 pm »
It's good to know that the TOC was a waste of time.

You'd mentioned this in many of your videos (also listed on post #1), so I guess it's an unbending rule ;D.   

My bad I thought you were referencing your FAQ about not disclosing many of your modifications.... you actually do have a video on the thermal stability mod  ;D
 


Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3427 on: June 16, 2019, 08:46:48 pm »
Ohh crap was  the leads or input jacks ? Or is the default error message for anything bad ?

Leads or Fuse error message pops up if you're not in the amps range dial with a lead in the amps input, or you're in the amps range and you have no lead in the amps input or you have a bad fuse.
I get that when I clean the input jack on my 189 with a Q-tip with too much rubbing alcohol, until it dries out.  I think the condensation shorted the amps range input sensor.

Its interesting that the 189 specs have a very wide operating temperature range of -20°C to +55°CC, and even gives you a temperature coefficient for measurement at <18 °C or >28 °C.      Such detail is probably one of the reasons Fluke has become a standard in U.S. Industry.   
It did seem to fall out of the 20 count spec for some duration... I'm guessing due to the condensation? I wonder what parts are affected by it... I'm guessing an analog part like the PTC?  Or more generally some current leak on the board in the analog input section.  I bet some insulating coating on the board can eliminate the condensation effect.
 



One of the interesting things of the manual is there is no mention to water resistance and yes there were water resistant watches back then, but check in the Physical Specifications the humidity ranges , it seems to be high for it's time as i repeated (sorry for this )in a comment on youtube, so probably the meter was ahead of it's time when it was developed / presented. 

Check the specs for the first model of the 87V ... they are the same  in terms of temperature and humidity ranges

« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 08:52:57 pm by malagas_on_fire »
If one can make knowledge flow than it will go from negative to positve , for real
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
« Reply #3428 on: June 16, 2019, 11:21:53 pm »
...A few good articles if you are interested:

Just FYI the 2nd and 3rd links didn't work for me.

Not surprised.  It's an old post and the internet is not constant.  If you are planning to keep an updated list for links on safety, here is one you may want to add:   
https://brainfiller.com/arcflashforum/

I'm a bit surprised with the amount of discussions on meter safety that no one took the lead to create a thread for it.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3429 on: June 17, 2019, 02:02:57 am »
There is this thread but maybe it's nothing compared to what is discussed, tested here, since it is a specific target multimeter thread

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-list-of-multimeters-that-do-not-appear-to-meet-their-claimed-safety-specs/

Now to make one similiar as yours it would require someone maybe to build similar test jig, test equipment,DMM's,  skillset, etc Its a unique thread where you pick up something that was not yet explored at diy world on Handheld meters.


If one can make knowledge flow than it will go from negative to positve , for real
 

Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3430 on: June 17, 2019, 02:31:48 am »
By the way here is an update for the battery testing on the UT204A in the DC 40 Amp's. Now there are not much of losses to care about from the previous experience with garbage crocodile cables :S 0.75m2 + crimped terminals + banana jacks .. 3.333 Ohms between power supply and meter. better measure voltage on input jacks with uni-t 50b ..[EDIT] its 8.97V on input jacks so it is much lower... need more resolution :D but this is an improvement.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 02:41:13 am by malagas_on_fire »
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Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3431 on: June 17, 2019, 02:49:07 am »
By the way here is an update for the battery testing on the UT204A in the DC 40 Amp's. Now there are not much of losses to care about from the previous experience with garbage crocodile cables :S 0.75m2 + crimped terminals + banana jacks .. 3.333 Ohms between power supply and meter. better measure voltage on input jacks with uni-t 50b ..[EDIT] its 8.97V on input jacks so it is much lower... need more resolution :D but this is an improvement.

here is the measurement taken on the input jacks with DUT , voltage is the same in both points .

If one can make knowledge flow than it will go from negative to positve , for real
 

Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3432 on: June 21, 2019, 08:39:30 am »
Now this is a new thing.... a uni-t with two input jacks and inverted display.... ut123 ... is this the one who would lived up to the transient generator?
 It is so damn simple... a copy cat of some meter that we know...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/UNI-T-UT123-Digital-Color-Screen-High-Accuracy-Multimeter-for-Home-Industry-P2C9/382971551604?hash=item592ae21f74:g:FkcAAOSwbINc5rcR

... besides the ut210E which is in fact very good...
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 08:46:30 am by malagas_on_fire »
If one can make knowledge flow than it will go from negative to positve , for real
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3433 on: June 21, 2019, 10:42:38 am »
Ohh crap was  the leads or input jacks ? Or is the default error message for anything bad ?

Leads or Fuse error message pops up if you're not in the amps range dial with a lead in the amps input, or you're in the amps range and you have no lead in the amps input or you have a bad fuse.
I get that when I clean the input jack on my 189 with a Q-tip with too much rubbing alcohol, until it dries out.  I think the condensation shorted the amps range input sensor.

Its interesting that the 189 specs have a very wide operating temperature range of -20°C to +55°CC, and even gives you a temperature coefficient for measurement at <18 °C or >28 °C.      Such detail is probably one of the reasons Fluke has become a standard in U.S. Industry.   
It did seem to fall out of the 20 count spec for some duration... I'm guessing due to the condensation? I wonder what parts are affected by it... I'm guessing an analog part like the PTC?  Or more generally some current leak on the board in the analog input section.  I bet some insulating coating on the board can eliminate the condensation effect.
 



One of the interesting things of the manual is there is no mention to water resistance and yes there were water resistant watches back then, but check in the Physical Specifications the humidity ranges , it seems to be high for it's time as i repeated (sorry for this )in a comment on youtube, so probably the meter was ahead of it's time when it was developed / presented. 

Check the specs for the first model of the 87V ... they are the same  in terms of temperature and humidity ranges

I'm more convinced now that condensation on the board likely made the 189 go out of spec... the "Leads or Fuse error" should only ever occur with the dial in the amps measurement position.  Plugging a lead into the amps jack while in the voltage measurement causes a "Leads error" without the "of Fuse," so some kind of current leak around the dial wipers probably occurred.   

 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3434 on: June 23, 2019, 09:06:02 am »
I'm more convinced now that condensation on the board likely made the 189 go out of spec... the "Leads or Fuse error" should only ever occur with the dial in the amps measurement position.  Plugging a lead into the amps jack while in the voltage measurement causes a "Leads error" without the "of Fuse," so some kind of current leak around the dial wipers probably occurred.

Thank you Joe for the new part 2 video with humidity enclosure and test, and pointing out it was a "Leads" error, indicating it detected a lead inserted in the amps jack, and not a "Leads or Fuse" error which should only happen with the dial in the amps section.   

So humidity probably did affect the meter in the 1st test with the jacks getting condensation and shorting the sensor.  Still not sure if it was the thermal differential or condensation that caused it to go out of spec in the 1st video but my hunch is, condensation played a role.  The 2nd test seemed to stay in spec enclosed in the ziplock... doing a resistance test which intuitively would be affected to a greater extent by condensation on the board.

I've seen some 87's and 189's input sensor malfunction due to moisture, or fail due to corrosion or debris/gunk between the board and the input jack assembly so that seems to be a weak spot of Flukes where moisture can get trapped.
 


 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3435 on: June 24, 2019, 11:28:34 am »
No problem.  Its one of those things that we could all guess and be fairly confident that it was moisture causing it but it was easy enough to try this simple test. 

I doubt you would find many cases where people are trying to take measurements when the temperature is not stable.   Well, that is when you are looking for very small effects.   

One thing is certain and that is the box with the stacked peltiers will drive these meters with the camera to much lower temperatures than I could previously reach.  In the end, that was my goal. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 


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