EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: joeqsmith on June 06, 2015, 10:54:30 am

Title: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 06, 2015, 10:54:30 am
The latest spreadsheet is now available on GoogleDocs here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cXzYpIoyVm9QJUju4KXqM22CEQZP3_xwWvDyeVwxTy4/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cXzYpIoyVm9QJUju4KXqM22CEQZP3_xwWvDyeVwxTy4/edit?usp=sharing)

Answers to Frequently Asked Questions may be found here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gEPFeOZpsNSm0-7sA98w2P5XE5x77Oal9dQEYvQnF6g/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gEPFeOZpsNSm0-7sA98w2P5XE5x77Oal9dQEYvQnF6g/edit?usp=sharing)

Because the generator used for these tests changed from the first round to the second, it is difficult to correlate the data.  The UNI-T UT90A that was used in the first round had been repaired and tested again in the second round.   You will notice that while it survived a 3.2KV 2 ohms pulse in the first round, it fails at 1.5KV 2 ohm during the second round.   This is because the pulse width on the new generator was increased by a fair amount to more closely represent the IEC standard.   

You will also note that the AM530 did not make it as far into the tests at the AM510 did in the first round.  Some of the meters that 5KY provided me with were a much higher grade.   

Because the generator used in the first round of testing had to be rebuilt for each test ran, when the Fluke 87V was finally tested we only knew it was not as robust as the winner of the $50 shootout, the Fluke 101.    During the second round, enough people had asked me about the 87V that I went ahead and reran one and was amazed that it did so poorly.   


I have very few rules when it comes to leaving comments on my YT channel. 

1) Don't personally insult anyone.  Me or otherwise. 

2) Don't use my channel to post ads.  I don't run ads and don't ask for donations.  I am not making any money by posting this content.  For you to try and profit from my efforts is in very poor taste.           

3) Don't ask about how to modify a meter or how to construct a transient generator like I show.   Also, don't attempt to post lists of materials and don't try to tell others how to modify their meter.  If I ignored you, you should be fine.  If you are persistent most likely you will get banned.   There are many concerns when it comes to working with higher voltages and currents, even at the levels I show in the videos.       
 
I have YT filters setup.  If really don't care if your vocabulary is limited but the filters are fairly effective at picking up people who are intent on breaking the first rule.  Just be aware they are being used.   

If you want to post about my channel to others, please don't post false statements about the tests I am running.  Obviously I don't have any control over this.  I am just asking that if you don't understand the tests being ran, maybe just point them to the FAQs and call it good.   

If the above rules bother you and you feel you can't follow them,  please feel free to unsubscribe. 

Thanks.   

Table of Contents

First attempts at designing a waveform generator
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg688021/#msg688021 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg688021/#msg688021)

Selecting the first set of $50 USD meters to run
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg688363/#msg688363 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg688363/#msg688363)

Initial testing of the waveform generator
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg688607/#msg688607 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg688607/#msg688607)

The first set meters have arrived and round I of the testing begins
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg695530/#msg695530 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg695530/#msg695530)

Home made high voltage attenuator
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg696093/#msg696093 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg696093/#msg696093)

Fuses are now banned from testing and the low energy levels are explaine
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg697304/#msg697304 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg697304/#msg697304)

From here on, its always a 2 ohm source....
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg697665/#msg697665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg697665/#msg697665)

The UNI-T UT139C shows up late from China.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg698362/#msg698362 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg698362/#msg698362)

Member Meter Junkie shows off their surge generator
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg699353/#msg699353 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg699353/#msg699353)

First set of $50 meters, Semi Finals
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg699631/#msg699631 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg699631/#msg699631)

The UNI-T UT139C joins the remaining four meters and is damaged
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg699833/#msg699833 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg699833/#msg699833)

First set of $50 meters, Finals
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg701147/#msg701147 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg701147/#msg701147)

Member Meter Junkie runs a second Fluke 101 on their IEC combo generator at 12KV
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg703553/#msg703553 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg703553/#msg703553)

I push the Fluke 101 to 13KV 100us FWHH
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg704183/#msg704183 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg704183/#msg704183)

Hackaday runs a story on the testing
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg705738/#msg705738 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg705738/#msg705738)

The first of the higher cost meters, the Fluke 87V
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg708183/#msg708183 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg708183/#msg708183)

Member TechnologyCatalyst(5KY) steps into the game with a Round II of meters
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg746543/#msg746543 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg746543/#msg746543)

Designing a programmable transient generator
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg748162/#msg748162 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg748162/#msg748162)

Testing the new transient generator
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg763288/#msg763288 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg763288/#msg763288)

Testing the second set of meters, Round 1
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg769212/#msg769212 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg769212/#msg769212)

Testing the second set of meters, The Finals
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg777164/#msg777164 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg777164/#msg777164)

Statistics
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg779711/#msg779711 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg779711/#msg779711)

Rebuilding the generator (20KV, 50us FWHH), the Fluke 107 is pushed to its limit
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg780700/#msg780700 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg780700/#msg780700)

UNI-T UT90A plays music
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg782212/#msg782212 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg782212/#msg782212)

Designing the  half cycle AC line simulator
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg789734/#msg789734 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg789734/#msg789734)

Initial testing of the Half cycle AC line simulator
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg795033/#msg795033 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg795033/#msg795033)

The Fluke 17B+ Review
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg811544/#msg811544 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg811544/#msg811544)

A second UNI-T UT139C is tested
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg815680/#msg815680 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg815680/#msg815680)

The Fluke 115 Review
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg818828/#msg818828 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg818828/#msg818828)

My old Mastech MS9508 / Cen-tech P37772
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg829927/#msg829927 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg829927/#msg829927)

Discussing input protection circuits
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg832724/#msg832724 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg832724/#msg832724)

The SONY Cyber-shot DSC-RX10M2 high speed Sony camera
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg841421/#msg841421 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg841421/#msg841421)

The UNI-T UT15C VoltStick
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg848706/#msg848706 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg848706/#msg848706)

The Keysight U1231A
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg852693/#msg852693 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg852693/#msg852693)

First look at the current inputs
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg863105/#msg863105 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg863105/#msg863105)

The VICI VC99
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg881819/#msg881819 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg881819/#msg881819)

The HIOKI DT4252
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg890263/#msg890263 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg890263/#msg890263)

The UNI-T UT181A
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg908123/#msg908123 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg908123/#msg908123)

Talking about ESD
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg911717/#msg911717 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg911717/#msg911717)

The UNI-T UT181A Repairs
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg915451/#msg915451 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg915451/#msg915451)

Low cost pocket meters
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg934733/#msg934733 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg934733/#msg934733)

Testing various DMM probes
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg945681/#msg945681 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg945681/#msg945681)

The TPI 194 II
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg967246/#msg967246 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg967246/#msg967246)

Temperature testing Part I
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg985119/#msg985119 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg985119/#msg985119)

Modifying the UNI-T UT61E (added robustness, backlight)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1023221/#msg1023221 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1023221/#msg1023221)

YX-360 analog meter
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1025998/#msg1025998 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1025998/#msg1025998)

The Brymen BM235
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1030093/#msg1030093 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1030093/#msg1030093)

Pen Meters
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1054346/#msg1054346 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1054346/#msg1054346)

Modifying the UNI-T UT61E (Improving temperature drift)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1074263/#msg1074263 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1074263/#msg1074263)

The CEM DT-9939 / Extech EX540
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1110590/#msg1110590 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1110590/#msg1110590)

Designing an ESD gun
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1126104/#msg1126104 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1126104/#msg1126104)

The Woods DMMW3 pocket meter
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1146838/#msg1146838 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1146838/#msg1146838)

The ANENG meters
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1149808/#msg1149808 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1149808/#msg1149808)

Testing various DMM high current shunts
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1159237/#msg1159237 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1159237/#msg1159237)

Modifying the UNI-T UT61E (20A measurements)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1168820/#msg1168820 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1168820/#msg1168820)

Modifying the UNI-T UT61E (Low Burden Voltage)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1182031/#msg1182031 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1182031/#msg1182031)

SIBA branded UXCELL Multimeter Fuse, Real or Counterfeit
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1196539/#msg1196539 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1196539/#msg1196539)

The Gossen Metrawatt Metrahit Ultra M248B
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1207306/#msg1207306 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1207306/#msg1207306)

The Gossen goes to the chamber along with some lower cost meters
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1209697/#msg1209697 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1209697/#msg1209697)

Dave sends a 121GW prototype
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1231731/#msg1231731 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1231731/#msg1231731)

Testing Dave's ASTM fuses
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1236035/#msg1236035 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1236035/#msg1236035)

Mr Joules
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1245107/#msg1245107 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1245107/#msg1245107)

My first Fluke 189, Finally a Fluke meter that I would actually use
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1258001/#msg1258001 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1258001/#msg1258001)

PlastX, restoring lens
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1262271/#msg1262271 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1262271/#msg1262271)

Dave runs a crude HV test
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1282305/#msg1282305 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1282305/#msg1282305)

The ANENG 8008
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1284726/#msg1284726 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1284726/#msg1284726)

Transient Testing Resistors
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1295646/#msg1295646 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1295646/#msg1295646)

ANENG, 14KV or Bust
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1299489/#msg1299489 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1299489/#msg1299489)

Selector Switch Life Cycle Testing Part I
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1313951/#msg1313951 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1313951/#msg1313951)

The ALL-SUN EM135 Automotive Meter
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1337607/#msg1337607 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1337607/#msg1337607)

Selector Switch Life Cycle Testing Part II
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1345200/#msg1345200 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1345200/#msg1345200)

Harbor Freight's CEN-TECH 95670, the rebranded E0SUN EM129 automotive meter
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1369480/#msg1369480 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1369480/#msg1369480)

Upgrades to my temperature chamber made from a meat packing box
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1371562/#msg1371562 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1371562/#msg1371562)

The Brymen BM319s Automotive Meter
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1382595/#msg1382595 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1382595/#msg1382595)

The Brymen BM869s 50,000 Cycle Switch Life Test
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1386207/#msg1386207 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1386207/#msg1386207)

Repeating the Brymen BM869s Transient Test
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1400700/#msg1400700 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1400700/#msg1400700)

The Brymen BM839 Professional Meter
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1405549/#msg1405549 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1405549/#msg1405549)

The Brymen BM869s, It's 14KV or Bust
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1407796/#msg1407796 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1407796/#msg1407796)

Repairing the homemade wideband high voltage probe
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1417243/#msg1417243 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1417243/#msg1417243)

The Fluke 87V, hot off the production line, full on testing
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1429536/#msg1429536 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1429536/#msg1429536)

The Fluke 87V, Extended High Voltage Testing
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1460870/#msg1460870 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1460870/#msg1460870)

The Fluke 87V, Another look at the old 87V and why it failed
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1467255/#msg1467255 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1467255/#msg1467255)

The Fluke T6-600, a responce to AvE
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1519018/#msg1519018 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1519018/#msg1519018)

Appling 1KV to various meter's, a responce to VoltLog
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1547579/#msg1547579 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1547579/#msg1547579)

Member Kean's Damaged 121GW, trying to determine the root cause
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1598113/#msg1598113 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1598113/#msg1598113)

Lighting strikes and damages some of my test equipment
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1646627/#msg1646627 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1646627/#msg1646627)

The MeterK MK01
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1684985/#msg1684985 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1684985/#msg1684985)

Transient Testing a Vintage Fluke 189
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1748807/#msg1748807 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1748807/#msg1748807)

The Brymen BM27s / Amprobe PM55A, is it really as bad as member True claims?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1787117/#msg1787117 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1787117/#msg1787117)

Applying 1KVDC to various 4.7M resistors, preparing for a possible future test
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1787645/#msg1787645 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1787645/#msg1787645)

Viewer questions and comments
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1822403/#msg1822403 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1822403/#msg1822403)

The Brymen BM869s is directly exposed to several Watts of 7MHz CW
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1906376/#msg1906376 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1906376/#msg1906376)

The Brymen BM27s / Amprobe PM55A, Round I of testing
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1908218/#msg1908218 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1908218/#msg1908218)

Demonstrating using Labview to communicate w/ 121GW and UT181A over BlueTooth
Vaseline?  Yes, that's right.  Future Darwin Award
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1929244/#msg1929244 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1929244/#msg1929244)

The Owon B41T+ review
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2053840/#msg2053840 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2053840/#msg2053840)

Measuring battery life
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2081572/#msg2081572 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2081572/#msg2081572)

Rebuilding my first digital volt meter, the Fluke 8000A
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2174864/#msg2174864 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2174864/#msg2174864)

The Yokogawa TY720 review
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2223951/#msg2223951 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2223951/#msg2223951)

Vibration Testing
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2299404/#msg2299404 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2299404/#msg2299404)

The Brymen BM27s pocket meter,  Round II  low battery, cold Winter months and vibration
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2344941/#msg2344941 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2344941/#msg2344941)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: N2IXK on June 06, 2015, 11:09:35 am
Any muiltimeter with a legitimate Cat III rating can handle Cat II circuits. 

The higher the Category rating, the higher energy the meter is safe with. You can always use a Cat III or Cat IV meter on lower rated circuits, but not the other way around....
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: joeqsmith on June 06, 2015, 11:14:38 am
After doing many searches on this site, I see a lot of posts about how meters are rated and tested.  There were even a few posts where people attempted to put some high voltage on them.   To be clear,  my plan is not to do an insulation test.   I am interested in surge.   My plan is to construct a small generator that I will use to weed out the worst meters.   If any meters are working after my basic test, I plan to further test them to the actual standards.   

CAT III 600 would require the surge use a 2 ohm source with a 6KV peak (3000 Amps peak).   This would ride on top of the AC.  Nasty stuff.  CAT II uses a 4KV peak with a 12 ohm source (333 Amps peak).   The test is the standard 8/20 waveform with a short applied or 1/50 with an open. 

A few good articles if you are interested:

http://www.grainger.com/content/safety-digital-multimeter (http://www.grainger.com/content/safety-digital-multimeter)
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-4578EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-4578EN.pdf)
http://faculty.riohondo.edu/jfrala/fluke_multimeters_-_abcs_of_multimeter_safety_multimeter_safety_and_you_application_note.pdf
 (http://faculty.riohondo.edu/jfrala/fluke_multimeters_-_abcs_of_multimeter_safety_multimeter_safety_and_you_application_note.pdf)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: joeqsmith on June 06, 2015, 11:49:15 am
To start out, I need a generator that can create something close to the CAT II waveform.    You saw from my first post my quick generator.   This thing could hardly do much of anything.   

Over the last few days I built up several circuits, blew up every bench supply I have (an repaired them) and am close now to what I am looking for.   

My plan to do a sort of hybrid waveform.   I plan to limit the peak to 2KV but stay with the 2 ohm source.   I also plan to limit the duration of the pulse (not sub 1.0us like  my first throw together setup).   I plan to cut it in half.   For a CAT III meter this will be no problem what so ever as it is 1/3 the peak and half the duration with the same impedance.   

The second generator I cobbled up worked fairly well with a 12 ohm source but I wanted something that could do the above and put out that full 1000 Amps.   

The DOE Handbook Electrical Safety is available on-line.   I have played with KV low current equipment most of my life from TV and radios to modern test equipment.   So I am not concerned about this little project.    However,  I thought it would be interesting to highlight a few paragraphs from this document.

To create the waveform, I have been using a 500mA wall mount supply.   I use this to create a high voltage signal that is rectified and stored into a bank of capacitors.   

In Fig. 3-4. Complete electrical hazard classification system showing 5 major groups and 54 classes.  You can see capacitors are called out as Classes 3.x.   They are broken down by operating voltage.   

13.7.3.3 Safety Practices
An analysis of high-voltage circuits should be performed by a qualified person before work
begins unless all exposed energized parts are guarded as required for high-voltage work. The
analysis must include fault conditions where circuit current could rise above the nominal rated
value. Depending on the results of the analysis, any of the following may apply:

1. If the analysis concludes that the current is above 5 mA or stored high-voltage capacitive
energy is above 1 joule for voltages between 100 and 400 V DC, or above 0.25 joule for
voltages equal to or greater than 400 V, then the work is considered to be energized work
and should be performed in accordance with Chapter 2, "General Requirements" and/or
Chapter 3, "Hazard Analysis." See Chapter 3 for details on electrical hazard classification.
2. If the analysis concludes that the current is between 0.5 mA and 5 mA and between 0.25
and 1 joules, then the worker may be exposed to a secondary hazard (e.g., startle reaction)
that must be mitigated.
3. If the analysis concludes that the current is below 0.5 mA and below 0.25 joules, then the
worker exposure is minimal and no special precautions are required, even for high voltage
circuits.


From above, I plan to run the storage caps at 2KV.  Well above the 400V limit.  Looking at Fig. 3-9. Hazard Classes 3.x, capacitors, > 400 V, we can see that for 1-10 Joules, it is considered Class 3.3d.    This is a Red colored box.   

10) A red Class (X.3) indicates injury or death could occur by proximity or contact; often
the hazard is shock, contact burn, or arc-flash burn; engineering controls are
necessary for operation (e.g., listing or equipment approval), and administrative
controls are necessary for electrical work in this Class.


It should be obvious what the above means....
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: joeqsmith on June 06, 2015, 11:53:39 am
After making some calculations for the controller and output stages I ran a quick simulation of both.     Attached you can see the simulated response with a 1Meg and a 0.1 ohm load attached.   Not quite a 1000 Amps in the simulation. 

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: joeqsmith on June 06, 2015, 01:38:02 pm
Here is the final test generator.   No high voltage is exposed except at the banana connectors that plug into the target.  I was going to run it from batteries and still may.   There are two banana jacks on the side used to supply the power.   The key is plastic and is used to disable the unit.   The cable is silicone and the connectors are a CSCB series, both rated for much higher voltages than I plan to run. 

In the picture, you can see the damaged BK meter with the Pearson current transformer.  This is a 5000A 20MHz part, PN 410.   

Looking through Amazon, there is not a great way to search for CAT ratings.  Interesting is that all the work that was put into the DVM spreadsheet and all the concern for safety, I can't seem to find them rated by CAT an fuses.   I read through the forum about meters that don't meet their specs. 


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: Halvmand on June 06, 2015, 09:03:48 pm
Interesting. Looking foward to se some test results.
Do you have any meters in mind for destruction?

I would personally like to see the fluke ripoff get exited.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/F14129-Aimometer-MS8215-Auto-Range-Digital-Multimeter-DMM-AC-DC-Voltmeter-Amme-/261831441592?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf65ebcb8 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/F14129-Aimometer-MS8215-Auto-Range-Digital-Multimeter-DMM-AC-DC-Voltmeter-Amme-/261831441592?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf65ebcb8)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: Halvmand on June 06, 2015, 09:08:18 pm
Oops. That is only CAT II rated.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2015, 10:50:35 pm
However,  after a quick search on the internet, it seems there are many low cost CAT III rated meters available.   I would like to know if any of these can handle CAT II.   
Anything that's CAT III is also CAT II.

Why am I only interested in testing them at CAT II?  Well that's about the only thing I would ever dare use any hand held meter for.   
The difference between CAT II and CAT III is very subtle in practice.

You can't tell if a mains socket is CAT II or CAT III just by looking at it. It's mostly to do with the distance from the circuit breakers (ie. the length/inductance of the wire between you and the distribution panel).

Well that's about the only thing I would ever dare use any hand held meter for.   
Me? I wouldn't use anything less than CAT III for regular mains work and I'd want a meter which I KNOW is CAT III, which in practice means Fluke. The numbers printed on the front of certain other brands of meter have been shown to be lies many times in these forums.

A Fluke 101 can be had for under $45, is easy to find, and comes with proper covered probes for mains AC work.

For that price I don't see any point in using anything else.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: G0HZU on June 06, 2015, 11:20:46 pm
Quote
Me? I wouldn't use anything less than CAT III for regular mains work and I'd want a meter which I KNOW is CAT III, which in practice means Fluke. The numbers printed on the front of other brands of meter have been shown to be lies many times in these forums.

A Fluke 101 can be had for under $45, is easy to find, and comes with proper covered probes for mains AC work.

For that price I don't see any point in using anything else.

The only thing I'd add to that is that for the vast majority of today's hobbyists, one should rarely need to directly measure the mains voltage with a meter anyway.

I avoid it as much as possible and use a sealed 'meter in a plug' if I'm curious about what the mains voltage is. Otherwise, I'd rather debug any mains wiring inside a piece of electronics gear with the unit switched off and unplugged from the mains and after a discharge.

To put this in perspective, I don't think I've measured the mains voltage directly with a DMM for many years. Obviously it would be different if I was an electrical engineer working on domestic or commercial power distribution etc but I'm quite happy to use basic DMMs (here and at work) for most low voltage electronics work. But I always keep them well away from mains voltage (230V AC here in the UK).

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: joeqsmith on June 07, 2015, 01:47:20 am
Interesting. Looking foward to se some test results.
Do you have any meters in mind for destruction?


Yes, I have started to make a list.   

Mastech MS8264, 8261, 8217 and 2008B.  The Extech MN15A.  The UNI-T UT90A.

I don't care if it had a bad review, was shown to have a glass fuse or appeared to have no protection at all.    I don't care what color it is, how many features it has or how many digits.     I am looking for anything under $50 with a CAT III 600V rating and fused current or clamp.   I am not affiliated with any company and have no bias towards any manufacture of hand held meters.  So any meter that meets the above, I would add to the list.   


A Fluke 101 can be had for under $45, is easy to find, and comes with proper covered probes for mains AC work.

I'll check.  I have another Fluke in mind and am not apposed to testing more of them if they meet the criteria.     


Currently I am working on a short video showing how the generator works and the waveforms it produces.    I was looking around the room for loads, and there was an LED bulb that would no longer turn on.    I connected the bulb to the generator and zapped it.   You know, that thing came back to life!  I kid you not!  I screwed it back into my fixture and it is still on.   Maybe a lead free solder joint failure.......
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: Fungus on June 07, 2015, 02:23:46 am
A Fluke 101 can be had for under $45, is easy to find, and comes with proper covered probes for mains AC work.
I'll check.  I have another Fluke in mind and am not apposed to testing more of them if they meet the criteria.     

Under $42.50 delivered to your door: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=fluke+101 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=fluke+101)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: joeqsmith on June 07, 2015, 03:44:16 am
I closed my Ebay's account many years ago but I did find it on Amazon for under $50, ships direct from China with free shipping.  :-+

As I plan to buy one higher cost DVM, I started to look at the warranty and manuals.   Let's look at the 101 manual. 

Quote
LIMITED WARRANTY AND LIMITATION OF LIABILITY
This Fluke product will be free from defects in material and workmanship for one year from the date of purchase. This
warranty does not cover fuses, disposable batteries, or damage from accident, neglect, misuse, alteration, contamination, or
abnormal conditions of operation or handling.

Would a manufacture consider purposely testing their products, misuse or abnormal?   I guess we will find out.

For the first tests I plan to use my homemade surge generator to test all of the meters.   One thing that may not be clear is for my basic home surge tests, I am not going to inject on top of the input signal.   Surge would normally ride on the AC and would be tested +/- at 0, 90, 180 270.   It should be clear what this means as far as the peak voltages.    My concern is not so much the peak, but the energy available from the line after an arc.  When I made this video showing the effects of having the surge on top of a 24V DC source it's not hard to understand why. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZeRkEKBYdzw#t=64 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZeRkEKBYdzw#t=64)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: joeqsmith on June 07, 2015, 11:18:07 am
Here's the first of what will be several videos showing the my homemade scaled down surge generator in operation.   You can see the output waveform with various loads attached.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVYGB9g00S8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVYGB9g00S8)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: Halvmand on June 08, 2015, 04:30:07 am
Great video.

I think this one from amprobe could be a fun test:
Amprobe AM-510 for 44 $ on ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amprobe-AM-510-Commercial-Residential-Multimeter-with-Non-Contact-Voltage-New-/351412552068?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51d1d20184 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amprobe-AM-510-Commercial-Residential-Multimeter-with-Non-Contact-Voltage-New-/351412552068?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51d1d20184)

This too:
Amprobe AM-34 for 45 $
www.ebay.com/itm/Amprobe-AM-34-Cat-III-AUTO-Digital-Multimeter-/271867163408?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4c8bb310 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amprobe-AM-34-Cat-III-AUTO-Digital-Multimeter-/271867163408?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4c8bb310)

Or this one if it would drop just a tinsy bit in price and be available outside europe. From your video you don't sound european.
PeakTech 2015. It has really good features i think. Could not find a teardown of it, but some of the higher end models seems well build.
http://www.peaktech.de/productdetail/kategorie/multimeter/produkt/p-2015.html (http://www.peaktech.de/productdetail/kategorie/multimeter/produkt/p-2015.html)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: blackbird on June 08, 2015, 05:36:15 am
I would like to see the Elix AL72D tested. It is a cheap multimeter sold by ALDI and some other discount supermarkets. They claim CATII and maybe it will survive the 750VAC or 1KVDC.

This model is also sold as the Range RE93A and I think under many other 'brands'.

The retailprice of this multimeter is somewhere between €10 and €15.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: MarkL on June 08, 2015, 07:18:38 am
joeqsmith:

I'm interested in your surge generator.  Perhaps a schematic would be helpful.

How are you triggering the discharge of the capacitor bank?  Or are you just charging it until it arcs over in the DUT?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: joeqsmith on June 08, 2015, 07:25:15 am
Great video.

I think this one from amprobe could be a fun test:
Amprobe AM-510 for 44 $ on ebay

This too:
Amprobe AM-34 for 45 $

Or this one if it would drop just a tinsy bit in price and be available outside europe. From your video you don't sound european.
PeakTech 2015. It has really good features i think. Could not find a teardown of it, but some of the higher end models seems well build.

Thanks.  Glad you enjoyed the sparks.   

I like that 510.   I looked for the PeakTech but it does not appear available.   I assume there are many more that fall into this price/rating range.   


I would like to see the Elix AL72D tested. It is a cheap multimeter sold by ALDI and some other discount supermarkets. They claim CATII and maybe it will survive the 750VAC or 1KVDC.

This model is also sold as the Range RE93A and I think under many other 'brands'.

The retailprice of this multimeter is somewhere between €10 and €15.

I looked for this meter and could not find it.  However, I am really looking for CAT III 600 and up.   

I have now added some test lead points and a ground clip.   



Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: joeqsmith on June 08, 2015, 12:46:36 pm
You saw the sparks fly from my old BK that was CAT II rated.  Then you saw the sparks fly from my old Fluke. 

Against my better judgement, I decided to sacrifice one more meter to the surge god.   After seeing how bad the Fluke arced and blowing the control IC off the BK,  I thought it would be good to tape it.   The DM-301 appears as cheap as they come.   It has no CAT rating at all.  There are no CE or TUV marks.  There is no brand name on it but it was made in Korea.   I picked it up in a Sears outlet just to have a handheld.   It got used a lot and is in pretty rough shape now.     The LCD is cracked and I no longer use it so putting it on my scaled down surge generator is no problem.

In this video I talk a little about how I plan to go about evaluating the low cost meters.   I also talk a little about the 1010 standard and how I base my pass/fail criteria on it. 

When you start looking at 5 seconds between transients, 5 transients per mode, say 3 connectors testing all combinations, say 10 modes, and both positive and negative....  Well that's a very very long time to test each meter.   This can make for a VERY boring video.   If you ever had to test a product to these standards, you know what I mean.  It's a lot of waiting.   

As you watch this video, I stripped out most of the dead time waiting for the tests.   I also did not show every dial setting being tested.  I did leave some of it in order to show how slow this testing can go.   So if you get bored watching, just fast forward.     :blah: :blah: :blah:

If you are looking for a video where 1K resistors are measured and I talk about how big the fuses are, how soft the rubber case is or how the plastic feels or the colors of the plastic, these videos will not be for you.    But if you want to see some low cost meters getting hit with the surge, get some popcorn.   I plan to increase the energy to each and every one of them to destruction.   Only one meter will come out on top and I don't care which brand or where it was made.   

Once I have found the best of the low cost meters that I have purchased, then next question I need to answer is can a higher priced name brand meter go up against it.   :box: 

Without further adieu,  setting the bar low as it gets, here's the no brand name DM 301.  Enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pInd17ibzDg&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pInd17ibzDg&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: joeqsmith on June 09, 2015, 11:26:49 am
Tonight I increased the voltage from my homemade surge generator until the unbranded DM-301 failed.   This will be the starting point for testing the new meters.   If the new CAT III 600 rated meters I order can't out perform this super low cost unrated meter,  well, those would be some very poor meters.   The bar is set low.   


Short clip showing the breakdown.   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USwqyjUD-jw&feature=youtu.be
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USwqyjUD-jw&feature=youtu.be)
   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: ivan747 on June 09, 2015, 12:47:24 pm

May I suggest the Amprobe AM220? It has what would appear to be HRC fuses but are really normal fuses with a ceramic tube, no sand and potentially no vacuum.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: joeqsmith on June 11, 2015, 11:27:32 am
I have narrowed my search for a higher end meter test against what ever low cost meter survives to the highest energy surge.   Keysight's U1272A, Fluke's 28II or the 87V.   All are in roughly the same price range.     Leaning towards the Keysight only because I have not had any failures with my HP meters and you saw what happened with my first Fluke.   

If anyone out there has actually ran surge tests on these and have an idea where they fail, it would be helpful.   I would rather have the more robust meter of the three for my testing.   

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: ivan747 on June 11, 2015, 01:30:25 pm
Dave hates (feline) cats. If you rename the thread he might see it.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: Mark on June 11, 2015, 07:43:20 pm
joeqsmith:

I'm interested in your surge generator.  Perhaps a schematic would be helpful.

How are you triggering the discharge of the capacitor bank?  Or are you just charging it until it arcs over in the DUT?

I am also interested in this as I am working on surge testing at the moment, it would be interesting to compare home made vs professional unit.  Can you post your schematic JoeQ? 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: joeqsmith on June 11, 2015, 09:00:39 pm
The BK 2703C, Mastech MS8264, Amprobe AM-510, Extech MN16A, Fluke 101 are now on order.   Does the Fluke 101 come out on top?   Do they all outperform my unbranded DM-301?     :popcorn:

I am also interested in this as I am working on surge testing at the moment, it would be interesting to compare home made vs professional unit.  Can you post your schematic JoeQ? 

While I mentioned it in Part 2, for any questions about surge generators refer to the IEC 61180-1.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: joeqsmith on June 12, 2015, 06:57:55 am
I had planned on narrowing my search of low cost meters down to eight total.   These are marked as ordered. 

Searching Google, I came across this article that may be of interest for those wanting to make their own test jigs.   I read it and it seems very good including a model for one.
http://www.denverpels.org/Downloads/Denver_PELS_20070918_Hesterman_Voltage_Surge_Immunity.pdf
 (http://www.denverpels.org/Downloads/Denver_PELS_20070918_Hesterman_Voltage_Surge_Immunity.pdf)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 14, 2015, 12:16:04 pm
The Cen-Tech P98674 (re-branded Mastech MS8229).       

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzQ57h2vGV0&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzQ57h2vGV0&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: ivan747 on June 14, 2015, 12:39:04 pm
The Cen-Tech was not on schedule, right? It looks like a nice meter on paper. I'm gonna see how it performs on the tests.
I'm impressed by your commitment to test so many units financing this by yourself. You truly are a curious person.

My only suggestion is that you come up with a definitive test so we can compare the meters directly, before you do more damage.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 14, 2015, 03:55:26 pm
The Cen-Tech was not on schedule, right? It looks like a nice meter on paper. I'm gonna see how it performs on the tests.
I'm impressed by your commitment to test so many units financing this by yourself. You truly are a curious person.

My only suggestion is that you come up with a definitive test so we can compare the meters directly, before you do more damage.

The internet is filled with a lot of chat about this subject.  Most seems more based on emotion than data.  So, yes, I want to know for myself if there is a low cost meter out there that can go head to head with a name brand.   

I had not planned on testing this meter.  It was sitting in the store and met the criteria so I thought I would try it out.   Seems like a popular meter.  I like it other than that it was damaged. 

For now I plan to stay with my very low energy tests.  These are the same waveforms I show in the first video.   To test these meters will take a fair amount of time and this is not something you want to do in a real lab.   What I would like to do is narrow it down to two meters.  My hope then is to test these meters to the full standards.   So if this is something people want to do, the standards are available and there are labs that will run these tests for you.     Right now, I'm not even close.   If any of them do make it into the 3KV range, I will be impressed. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 15, 2015, 04:36:04 am
Looking at the MS8229, not sure what VR10 & 11 are for.  Was not able to locate a manual for it.   Aligned it to my HP (in current cal) for voltage.   Also adjusted the temperature and capacitance.   Fairly tight now.     Picture showing adjustments.  Also showing input resistance vs range.    More than enough room to tuck a few parts in there.  Notice the unused traces and THs.  Will switch the fuse out.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 16, 2015, 10:22:12 am
The BK made it in.   Still sitting in the box.   Looks like they have all shipped now so I may hold off and then test them together.   

Made a few changes to my test setup as well.  If it was not a weak enough test already, I plan to raise the source to 14 ohms.   This will make everything under CAT II 600.     It's a pretty sorry test I know but these meters are pretty sorry as well.    Also added a bias input to the box which should help me detect when a meter fails.   

For the good meter, I have narrowed it down to the Fluke 28 II or the Keysight U1272A.    It sounds like the 28 II may be more robust than the 87V. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: ivan747 on June 16, 2015, 12:30:22 pm
You're telling me that the Mastech/Cen-tech meter only required recalibration?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: ivan747 on June 16, 2015, 12:31:26 pm
It sounds like the 28 II may be more robust than the 87V.

I have heard it is.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: retiredcaps on June 16, 2015, 05:06:12 pm
If you would like me to test your favorite meter,  my criteria now is that they must be a hand held meter,  marked CAT III (600V) or higher, cost under $50 US and be fused.
I don't have any of these meters and they are not my favorites, but if you are still interested in the under $50, CAT III and fused criteria, here are some more using pricing from Amazon.com.

Greenlee DM-45
Uni-t UT61E - very popular recommendation by some eevblog people
Tekpower TP2844R

I can probably find more, but it will make a dent in your wallet if I continue.  You have already ordered 8 meters and probably spent over $300 already.

BTW, can you provide some internal pictures of the DM-301?  I would be interesting to see the inside construction of this.   Your video showing the pcb was too fast and I can't see anything too clearly.

Protek made a DM301 that looks like the one in your video.

http://www.hcqelectronic.com/en/a/Digital_Multimeter/20140919/71.html (http://www.hcqelectronic.com/en/a/Digital_Multimeter/20140919/71.html)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: Fungus on June 16, 2015, 05:42:57 pm
Dave hates (feline) cats.
I vote we start sending him cat-related items in the mail.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat
Post by: SeanB on June 16, 2015, 06:35:56 pm
Dave hates (feline) cats.
I vote we start sending him cat-related items in the mail.

So who will send him something packed in a bag that used to contain kitty litter?

Nearly got a kitten yesterday, but the little bugger was too fast, and vanished into a sewer......
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on June 16, 2015, 06:48:52 pm
Muttley's close, he could send Dave a cat, bugger the litter.  :-DD
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on June 16, 2015, 07:47:04 pm
Muttley's close, he could send Dave a cat, bugger the litter.  :-DD
I'm sure Dave would come around if he actually had a kitten at home.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: SeanB on June 16, 2015, 08:06:43 pm
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a6/f9/c3/a6f9c3952e469b02123a9fa8b124ddcc.jpg)

(http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/10150465/images/1275204902142.jpg)

(http://pictures.mastermarf.com/blog/2009/090502-kitten-sandwich.jpg)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: mtdoc on June 17, 2015, 02:11:56 am
Perhaps a boook....

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vLP99ua4L.jpg)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 17, 2015, 09:14:32 am
If you would like me to test your favorite meter,  my criteria now is that they must be a hand held meter,  marked CAT III (600V) or higher, cost under $50 US and be fused.
I don't have any of these meters and they are not my favorites, but if you are still interested in the under $50, CAT III and fused criteria, here are some more using pricing from Amazon.com.

Greenlee DM-45
Uni-t UT61E - very popular recommendation by some eevblog people
Tekpower TP2844R

I can probably find more, but it will make a dent in your wallet if I continue.  You have already ordered 8 meters and probably spent over $300 already.

BTW, can you provide some internal pictures of the DM-301?  I would be interesting to see the inside construction of this.   Your video showing the pcb was too fast and I can't see anything too clearly.

Protek made a DM301 that looks like the one in your video.

http://www.hcqelectronic.com/en/a/Digital_Multimeter/20140919/71.html (http://www.hcqelectronic.com/en/a/Digital_Multimeter/20140919/71.html)

Dang where were you when I was looking for meters?!  I may go ahead and get that Greenlee DM-45.   

The Protek you link to appears the same from the outside.  The circuit board may be different now.   Picture showing PTC, zener and cut away areas.   Note the fuse has a few certifications.   

Plan to put some sort of matrix together for the testing.   Will attach it to the first post.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: amyk on June 17, 2015, 02:05:43 pm
That looks like an 830. I'm not surprised it did so well, there's not much to go wrong in them and if something arcs over on the surge that'll just "relieve" the stress instead of popping the IC.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: retiredcaps on June 17, 2015, 02:09:35 pm
Dang where were you when I was looking for meters?!
The subject header with kitty, kitty, kitty did not attract my attention and I didn't notice the CAT III handheld surge tests due to the way my screen wraps.

Anyway, if you want more suggestions, I will look for more meters that fit your criteria.  If not, no worries.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: retiredcaps on June 17, 2015, 02:21:29 pm
Picture showing PTC, zener and cut away areas.
I think the green component that I circled in blue looks to be a varistor (MOV).  If I'm correct, it is this component that is helping the DM-301 survive your tests.

Lightages did some youtbue tests with an insulation meter (up to 5000V) that you might be interested in. See

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhBbvIf3E0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhBbvIf3E0s)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eDWb7qkx4A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eDWb7qkx4A)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 17, 2015, 02:31:47 pm
Dang where were you when I was looking for meters?!
The subject header with kitty, kitty, kitty did not attract my attention and I didn't notice the CAT III handheld surge tests due to the way my screen wraps.

Anyway, if you want more suggestions, I will look for more meters that fit your criteria.  If not, no worries.

Maybe down the road.  I set a limit for myself what I was willing to spend on this little project.   I did not want any special handouts or frees as I did not want to be biased by any brand.    But, if you or anyone else finds any that claim a different cert like the Greenlee, I am interested. 

I attached a spreadsheet to the first post that outlines what tests I plan to run.   All of the meters will be functional tested, then tested against the CAT I.  If any pass, they will go on to CAT II and so on. 

Should be a fun week with lots of smoke.


That looks like an 830. I'm not surprised it did so well, there's not much to go wrong in them and if something arcs over on the surge that'll just "relieve" the stress instead of popping the IC.

I am impressed with it what ever it is.   Dirt cheap and has been very reliable.  It will be very funny if there is not a meter in the bunch that can hold up to at least the same levels!   :-DD :-DD
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 17, 2015, 02:41:33 pm
I think the green component that I circled in blue looks to be a varistor (MOV).  If I'm correct, it is this component that is helping the DM-301 survive your tests.

Yes, that is probably what it is, a MOV. The problem with the MOV in the Digitek is that it is directly across the input jacks. This protects the meter very well but under a bad overload condition the MOV could blow up. It should be after the current limiting resistors and the PTC instead.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 17, 2015, 03:00:15 pm
Picture showing PTC, zener and cut away areas.
I think the green component that I circled in blue looks to be a varistor (MOV).  If I'm correct, it is this component that is helping the DM-301 survive your tests.

Yes, I believe it is as well.  I had traced out some of the board and the opposite side is the input for the voltage and resistance.  There is a string of resistors that make of the attenuator for the different ranges.   These are next to the PTC and zener.       However, the current input also goes through another attenuator, these are the resistors located next to the MOV.    I suspect the MOV clamps anything from the current input only but I did not care enough to dig into it that deep. 

I had seen Dave's video with the hi-pot tester where he showed a switch arcing.  These sort of videos really don't tell me what I want to know or do anything for me.       

For example, say a meter had a MOV right across it's input with say a 600V clamp.  You set the hi-pot to 5 KV and no problems are found.  The hi-pot can't supply enough current to do any damage and the MOV just is happy to do it's job and clamp it.     If you did not know any better you may watch that and think, hey that meter looks pretty good.   Its taking  5KV.

I hit the same MOV with a 2KV surge and we find out is was not rated for that energy and BLAM.   I want to know if these meters can take the level of energy that they claim they can or not.   

I would have liked to have seen Dave surge test each meter he has reviewed to the point of failure and record this.    That to me is far more useful data than dropping it off a bridge to see the LCD crack.   

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 18, 2015, 08:59:01 am
Let the games begin.    A few friends wanted in on the fun and donated their meters.  The one is actually CAT III 600.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 18, 2015, 02:40:22 pm
You have been asked a couple of times if you will share the schematic of your pulse generator. Will you please?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Halvmand on June 19, 2015, 01:23:06 am
So the fluke did not even meet cat-I, or are you saving the best for last?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 19, 2015, 01:54:24 am
The Fluke might not have been one of the five tested.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: dom0 on June 19, 2015, 01:57:31 am
The Fluke might not have been one of the five tested.

(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/frequentists_vs_bayesians.png)

:)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on June 19, 2015, 01:59:00 am
There'll be a massive storm if the Fluke fails.

 :popcorn:

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 19, 2015, 08:02:50 am
I have been testing meters all day.   For the lower than CAT I tests, six out of the ten passed. 

I have been running the 2KV 14ohm 2/10 on the six and so far everything is good.  I may just move to the 2 ohm, 2KV then to the 2 ohm 4K.   Try and thin the heard a little.   I plan to run the DM-301 on this test.     If anything lives through this, it will be time to make another transient generator that packs a bigger punch. 

I did manage to edit the video for my attenuator.   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj_YndfA4Qs&feature=youtu.be
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj_YndfA4Qs&feature=youtu.be)    I'll demo this thing once the energy levels get up a little higher. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 20, 2015, 02:40:18 am
The generator is back up and putting out some nice pulses.    Time to unload the camera and get caught up.   

Starting off the CAT I tests, the Cen-Tech 98025 from Harbor Freight... 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnjKfzZeZlo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnjKfzZeZlo)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: dom0 on June 20, 2015, 02:54:01 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLfhQn9LwyA&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLfhQn9LwyA&feature=youtu.be)

YouTube says this video may contain music and I can't watch it(*).

(*) Private entity 'GEMA' owns 99.99 % of music rights in DE but has a clinch with Google and doesn't license the rights to them.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 20, 2015, 04:55:06 am
Yep, the radio was on in the background and it picked up a few seconds of music as a copyright issue.    :--
I'll be more careful in the future.

Here's the Gardner Bender GDT-311
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8SMr_OVBho&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8SMr_OVBho&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on June 20, 2015, 05:43:50 am
Thanks for putting these together.  I think this thread is the first were anyone has shown DMM's subject to approximations of IEC surge waveforms.  A question is at just that amount of energy, do they die gracefully or survive?  Survive would be a plus, money wise.

Are any of the test meters safety rated by external NRTL labs?   The B&K that failed?

In Dave's early videos, the energies are far above their CAT ratings, but its most useful because it shows how the meters respond in a severe failure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-FZP1U2dkM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-FZP1U2dkM) 

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 20, 2015, 06:38:03 am
Thanks for putting these together.  I think this thread is the first were anyone has shown DMM's subject to approximations of IEC surge waveforms.

No problem.   I am just as much interested myself in seeing how they stackup.   

A question is at just that amount of energy, do they die gracefully or survive?  Survive would be a plus, money wise.

Are any of the test meters safety rated by external NRTL labs?   The B&K that failed?

The old BK 2706A has no markings on it.


DM-301 is UL listed   
AMPROBE AM-510, CE CSA (Canadian and USA)
BK 3703C, CE
Gardner Bender GDT-311 shows it as Intertek Listed, UL 61010-1, CAN/CSA-C22.2
Klein MM500 is UL listed
FLuke 101, I can't read Chinese but there is no obvious mark on the box
EXTECH MN16A, ETL, CE
UNI-T UT90A,  I can't read Chinese but there is no obvious mark on the box


In Dave's early videos, the energies are far above their CAT ratings, but its most useful because it shows how the meters respond in a severe failure.

I am hitting them with far less energy than the IEC standards call for.    When I tested my old Fluke, that was the most violent failure so far.    But we are just getting started.....  :-DD   

Again the real energy would come from the mains and I am not using anything like this in my testing.    So even if a meter were to pass all of my tests,  it should be obvious that this does not
mean it would pass the real IEC standards.   
   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 20, 2015, 06:54:41 am
Halvmand's  AMPROBE AM-510
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcv6ADmf4Q8&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcv6ADmf4Q8&feature=youtu.be)

This meter was later fully tested.  Gets the big  :-+

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 20, 2015, 08:04:33 am
The Mastech MS8261

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-_76sAeSyM&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-_76sAeSyM&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 20, 2015, 08:36:24 am
The BK 2703C

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeywr8VUNdY&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeywr8VUNdY&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 20, 2015, 09:28:16 am
The UNI-T UT-90A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijFQJGlVAt8&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: IanB on June 20, 2015, 09:49:25 am
I am hitting them with far less energy than the IEC standards call for.    When I tested my old Fluke, that was the most violent failure so far.    But we are just getting started.....  :-DD   

Again the real energy would come from the mains and I am not using anything like this in my testing.    So even if a meter were to pass all of my tests,  it should be obvious that this does not
mean it would pass the real IEC standards.   


Correct me if I'm wrong, but meters are expendable and people are not. So believe the IEC tests are intended to ensure that any damage stays inside the meter and does not cause injury to a person holding it. For a meter itself to survive unharmed seems like a very strong requirement.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 20, 2015, 10:20:35 am
Correct me if I'm wrong, but meters are expendable and people are not. So believe the IEC tests are intended to ensure that any damage stays inside the meter and does not cause injury to a person holding it. For a meter itself to survive unharmed seems like a very strong requirement.

I would suggest anyone interested in the subject to start by reading the IEC standards.   I read parts of one during one of the early videos.  There was also a fairly lengthy discussion on this forum a few years back.   If you see a problem with what I am doing, feel free to comment. 

I am involved in testing to the IEC standards from time to time and will say that surge is one of my favorite tests to run.   


Here's the EXTECH MN16A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhJmjSCcfzQ&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhJmjSCcfzQ&feature=youtu.be)


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 20, 2015, 12:09:38 pm
I have been a long time lurker, and reader, of these forums.  I have not found the need to post until this thread.

I actually have done some IEC 61010 surge testing on meters, and I think you have done a great job building your own tester. I also like seeing how many of these low cost meters survive these surges. However, to meet the CAT ratings in 61010, they do not HAVE TO pass these surges.

My understanding of IEC 61010 is that the meter must not become a hazard when they take this surge. That means not flames or explosions when you hit the meter with the surge. Or, no broken cases or flying parts. But, the meter does not have to function after the surge to get the rating.  So, a meter that arcs over a trace or dial pad, but does not blow apart, would be considered a pass.

It is nice to know that some of these low end meters still function after your surges. But, they are not required to.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: ivan747 on June 20, 2015, 01:17:39 pm
Halvmand's  AMPROBE AM-510
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcv6ADmf4Q8&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcv6ADmf4Q8&feature=youtu.be)

This meter was later fully tested.  Gets the big  :-+

Nice to hear.
-The owner of an AM550 (or was it 560?)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 20, 2015, 02:13:41 pm
I have been a long time lurker, and reader, of these forums.  I have not found the need to post until this thread.

I actually have done some IEC 61010 surge testing on meters, and I think you have done a great job building your own tester. I also like seeing how many of these low cost meters survive these surges. However, to meet the CAT ratings in 61010, they do not HAVE TO pass these surges.

My understanding of IEC 61010 is that the meter must not become a hazard when they take this surge. That means not flames or explosions when you hit the meter with the surge. Or, no broken cases or flying parts. But, the meter does not have to function after the surge to get the rating.  So, a meter that arcs over a trace or dial pad, but does not blow apart, would be considered a pass.

It is nice to know that some of these low end meters still function after your surges. But, they are not required to.

Glad you felt inspired to post the first time.   I have never tested a multimeter for surge and while I have read the standards, I may have missed more than one or two things....

I am very interested in understand how people in the know interpret these standards.  So, let's start with what part are you referring to?   I have all the latest docs, so no problem to follow along. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 20, 2015, 02:30:20 pm
How can we find a copy of  the IEC 61010-1 3rd edition?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: SeanB on June 20, 2015, 05:58:39 pm
Quick check and this pops up.

https://www.isa.org/pdfs/microsites121/s-820201/ (https://www.isa.org/pdfs/microsites121/s-820201/)

Quote
All text of IEC 61010-1:2001 is included. National Deviations are shown by strikeout through text
deleted and underline under text added. Tables, or portions of tables, that are to be deleted are
shown as shaded; figures to be deleted are marked with the overlay "X." There are eleven
annexes in this standard. Annexes G, H, DVA, DVB, and DVC are informative and are not
considered part of this Standard. The remaining Annexes are normative and are considered part
of this standard.

Have fun reading this 156 page doc, though it is not the latest revision, but should be close. If you want the full version it will cost you 340 Swiss Francs ($370 US currently) for either the english/french or the Spanish versions.


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: amyk on June 20, 2015, 10:47:01 pm
How can we find a copy of  the IEC 61010-1 3rd edition?
With Google. (http://www.google.com/search?q=IEC+61010-1%3A2010+pdf)

You can thank the Chinese for that... ;)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 20, 2015, 11:39:39 pm
The Klein Tools MM500

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt3QG4pyqvw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt3QG4pyqvw)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 20, 2015, 11:40:27 pm
I have all the documents at work, so I would not be able to post that section until Monday.  I can't post the whole document, since that is not allowed.

In 61010-1 3rd Edition, the over voltage and surge tests have been removed. They are now covered in 61010-2-033 for DMM's and 61010-2-032 for clamp meters.  Basically, a large surge event like 6kV or 8kV is a lightning type event, and would rarely happen. This is why the meter does not have to survive, but does still need to protect the user. The standard even states that you do not need any transient protection devices in the unit. However, "IF" you choose to install these protection devices, then they must be able to withstand 5 pulses in each polarity without being damaged. But, they are not required to be there, if the meter can take the surge without becoming a hazard.

A requirement that got tougher to meet in this latest standard is over voltage on any dial position. Past standards allowed you to state what level of protection you had designed in. For example, if you had a DMM that measured to 600V, you could say the the resistance input is only protected to 250V, and this was sufficient to pass the standard. Now, it states that the meter can not become a hazard if you have the full rated voltage on any switch position, and any jack combination. Again, the meter does not have to survive this, just not become a hazard. You can find a bunch of videos where the meter catches fire with 600V applied to the resistance input. That fails the IEC specs now. But, if it had failed gracefully, it would have passed.  Of course, the better designed units can survive that over voltage, and still function.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 21, 2015, 12:00:01 am
The Klein Tools MM500


In your video, you said you believed that Klein unit could survive higher than a 10 foot drop.  A quick google search returned this.

http://youtu.be/7XL0JtSc-60 (http://youtu.be/7XL0JtSc-60)

Dave also took that meter on his mud run, and it survived that.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 21, 2015, 12:11:57 am
And last but not least, the Fluke 101

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScILWjPJzSE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScILWjPJzSE)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on June 21, 2015, 12:20:39 am
This was all discussed at length in a previous thread. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/cat-ratings-and-interpretation/msg159305/#msg159305 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/cat-ratings-and-interpretation/msg159305/#msg159305)
In a multimeter, the only high voltage transient protection possible, if fitted, are MOVs or GDTs (gas discharge tube).
Good meters also have crowbar circuits to protect other ranges ( Ohms, caps, etc...) up to 1000V (with diodes or transistors). Cheaper ones, as per their user manuals, can often only cope with 250V max. (As mentioned by Meter Junkie, this protection must now match the max voltage CAT rating)
Another new requirement concerns fuse ratings. They must now be HRC fuses and must also match the max voltage CAT rating.

The test on the current ranges has also been modified and now consists of applying twice the max voltage CAT rating (2000V max), with a ruptured fuse in place, for 1 minute.
The high voltage transient tests remain the same.
There must not be any possibility of electrical shock, fire, sparking and explosion, during and after the test. Multimeters are not expected to function properly after the series of tests.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 21, 2015, 12:23:42 am
In 61010-1 3rd Edition, the over voltage and surge tests have been removed. They are now covered in 61010-2-033 for DMM's and 61010-2-032 for clamp meters.

...

Of course, the better designed units can survive that over voltage, and still function.

61010-2-033 is what I quoted. 

The goal is the same no matter.  One meter will be more robust than the others. 


The Klein Tools MM500


In your video, you said you believed that Klein unit could survive higher than a 10 foot drop.  A quick google search returned this.

Dave also took that meter on his mud run, and it survived that.

I like the video!!  I had never heard of the brand until now. 

If I needed to have a very limited meter on a mud run to do some 1K resistor measurements, this would be it.    :-+   It's so light weight and solid, after these tests I may try and see what it takes to damage it.  Maybe drop it out of a plane or shoot it out of a cannon...  :-DD

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on June 21, 2015, 04:16:14 am
In 61010-1 3rd Edition, the over voltage and surge tests have been removed. They are now covered in 61010-2-033 for DMM's and 61010-2-032 for clamp meters.

...

Of course, the better designed units can survive that over voltage, and still function.

61010-2-033 is what I quoted. 

The goal is the same no matter.  One meter will be more robust than the others. 


The Klein Tools MM500


In your video, you said you believed that Klein unit could survive higher than a 10 foot drop.  A quick google search returned this.

Dave also took that meter on his mud run, and it survived that.

I like the video!!  I had never heard of the brand until now. 

If I needed to have a very limited meter on a mud run to do some 1K resistor measurements, this would be it.    :-+   It's so light weight and solid, after these tests I may try and see what it takes to damage it.  Maybe drop it out of a plane or shoot it out of a cannon...  :-DD

Klein is an american company that tends to focus on tools for electricians and telecommunications. I wonder who is manufacturing this meter for them. I am sure some others know of a few Korean multimeter companies. I can't think of any off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: retiredcaps on June 21, 2015, 06:10:57 am
Klein is an american company that tends to focus on tools for electricians and telecommunications. I wonder who is manufacturing this meter for them. I am sure some others know of a few Korean multimeter companies. I can't think of any off the top of my head.
Fine Instruments makes some of Klein's multimeters.  See

http://www.finest.co.kr/ci.html (http://www.finest.co.kr/ci.html)

Klein, however, has at least two multimeters that are "Made in the USA", but not for $50.

http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/multimeters/electricians-trms-multimeter (http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/multimeters/electricians-trms-multimeter)

http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/multimeters/electricians-hvac-trms-multimeter (http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/multimeters/electricians-hvac-trms-multimeter)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 21, 2015, 06:15:32 am
It also looks like Klein gets a couple of their models from Mastech, at least from the appearance.
http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/multimeters/auto-ranging-multimeter (http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/multimeters/auto-ranging-multimeter)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on June 21, 2015, 06:39:15 am
It's so light weight and solid, after these tests I may try and see what it takes to damage it.  Maybe drop it out of a plane or shoot it out of a cannon...  :-DD
Joe. Your disrepect of perfectly good test equipment worries me.
Some might say you are a sick puppy.  ;)

Great thread, watched it all the way.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 21, 2015, 08:28:54 am
It's so light weight and solid, after these tests I may try and see what it takes to damage it.  Maybe drop it out of a plane or shoot it out of a cannon...  :-DD
Joe. Your disrepect of perfectly good test equipment worries me.
Some might say you are a sick puppy.  ;)

Great thread, watched it all the way.  :popcorn:

 :-DD 

I'm glad you are enjoying it.   

Today was a good day.  The unbranded DM-301 has finally been beat!  Not to mention, it was put to rest.  I am sorry to say that I did not catch it on video.  I forget to press record.   |O 

For those who are concerned about how the meters are holding up.  Here's the final six meter getting hit with a 2KV transient with a 14 ohm source. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-lRvF8Nen0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-lRvF8Nen0)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 21, 2015, 09:31:16 am
A few updates.   I began testing the meters today with enough energy to take out the low current fuses.   Rather than replace expensive fuses, I am no longer testing the current inputs.    However, all of the other modes are still being tested.   If you may recall, early on I talked about removing the fuses during the testing.   As it turned out, this was not a problem until today.   

I am very sorry to say that 2 of the six meters are no longer with us.   :'( :'(     The four remaining do not have an easy life ahead of them.    If your favorite company was knocked out of the running, it's not because it was treated unfairly.   For those who are concerned about meters not functioning during the test, these four surviving brands have shown they produce a more robust product.  You may argue that they do not need to but I can tell you, I personally would rather have a meter that does.   

On the generator side of things, I have been clear all along that I am not testing to the IEC standards.   This is a one off generator just to weed things out.   The energy has always been lower than the standard calls for.    I am nearing the end of what I can do with this one.   It was already at lethal levels but these last four I have a feeling are going to require more than I can put out.   But don't worry.  I have plans to build a slightly larger and more lethal version.....   So stay tuned!

If you want a preview of today's testing, enjoy the following short clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16e0KvkWIi4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16e0KvkWIi4)

 








Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 21, 2015, 10:46:52 pm
So, which 2 of the 6 that passed the 2kV testing died?  Will you be hitting the remaining 4 with 3.5kV today?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 21, 2015, 11:31:12 pm
So, which 2 of the 6 that passed the 2kV testing died?  Will you be hitting the remaining 4 with 3.5kV today?

Just a warning, the results may not be what you're expecting.  I'll have the video up soon.   It will all be in one long video.  Nothing was cut, except for the functional testing at the end.   

Well, we can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.   Last night I added about 30% or so more capacity and higher voltage.   The test is set to go.     :-+ 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 22, 2015, 12:59:58 am
Well, I'm not really hoping for a certain winner, so I don't know what you think I'm expecting. But, based solely on the strength of the brands, I would guess the Extech and Uni-T would be the 2 that didn't make your last test. I expect the Fluke to go the distance.

I am looking forward to see the rest of your testing.  I do surge testing on telecom equipment, but don't test meters for my job. I love blowing stuff up with that machine.  The lab I work in does have a surge generator that can do 12kV through 2 ohms for IEC testing.  My telecom testing does not require me to go that high, so I don't use that machine. But, I'm not going to spend money buying meters just to see how they hold up on that machine.  I guess I'm just not as curious as you. But, I am curious enough to follow this thread, and see which brand holds up the best.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on June 22, 2015, 01:13:25 am
Joe,  continued good job  :-+,  I watch videos with as much anticipation as Game of Thrones  ;D.  I am away for awhile so can't post for sometime.  Keep up the good work.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 22, 2015, 01:41:11 am
Well, I'm not really hoping for a certain winner, so I don't know what you think I'm expecting. But, based solely on the strength of the brands, I would guess the Extech and Uni-T would be the 2 that didn't make your last test. I expect the Fluke to go the distance.

I am looking forward to see the rest of your testing.  I do surge testing on telecom equipment, but don't test meters for my job. I love blowing stuff up with that machine.  The lab I work in does have a surge generator that can do 12kV through 2 ohms for IEC testing.  My telecom testing does not require me to go that high, so I don't use that machine. But, I'm not going to spend money buying meters just to see how they hold up on that machine.  I guess I'm just not as curious as you. But, I am curious enough to follow this thread, and see which brand holds up the best.

Quote
Just a warning, the results may not be what you're expecting.
   

It was more a general statement to the 20 or so people watching the videos.   I think we all have our favorites.  I have been fairly vocal about the Klein Tools meter being the last survivor.   But to be clear, they all get the same abuse.   I am not being paid to run these tests,  no distributors have provided me with free meters nor do I work and have never excepted any payment from any manufactures.   With all the hype, I just wanted to know myself how a small sample would hold up.

I watched several reviews on handheld meters before I started looking to run this little experiment.  Based on what I saw with the UNI-T brand,  I would have thought it would have failed during the first test.   

Really, you specifically should run these tests!   If you can do the 8/20 2 ohm, you are all set.   Think your work would let you rent the lab for 4 days free of charge?   :-DD


Joe,  continued good job  :-+,  I watch videos with as much anticipation as Game of Thrones  ;D.  I am away for awhile so can't post for sometime.  Keep up the good work.   :popcorn:

Thanks.   

If you want to know which ones live and and die, enjoy the following:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9oBQVn9LlA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9oBQVn9LlA)







Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: SeanB on June 22, 2015, 03:07:45 am
Got a sledge hammer and a large rock to make sure the failures are properly worked over? Failing that a train line, some duct tape and a passing goods train ( plus a high speed camera to catch the squish) works well. A coin on a train line becomes pretty flat afterwards, provided you can actually find it.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 22, 2015, 03:20:47 am
Wow, I am really surprised that the B&K died before the Uni-T.  I look forward to your next pulse machine.

There still seems to be some confusion about whether a meter should survive or just not harm the user. I compiled quotes from different posts in an old thread on CAT ratings. They were excerpts from different parts of the IEC standards but I don't know where this one is from specifically because the IEC documents are not freely available, or at least I have not found them yet. It would be really nice if the IEC would make their publications freely available instead of making people pay for them. It would seem to me to be in the public's best interest to have the information. Hopefully someone with the full standards can clarify this. The part I have states:

Quote
101.4  Functional  integrity
After the voltage of  4.4.2.101  has  been applied to the  METER, the  METER  shall continue to be
able to indicate the presence of HAZARDOUS  LIVE  voltages up to the maximum RATED  voltage.

If this is relevant, then any meter you have failed before this video that also has a CATII rating or higher can't be sold in the EU legally. The ones that failed this video with a CATIII rating also cannot. It is my understanding, from watching a video by Martin Lorton at the Fluke facilities, that the US has no restrictions on the legal sale of multimeters, not yet.

There is another part that specifies that any meter should not fail in a way that could harm the user. I wonder how that is actually tested without putting a person in harm's way?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 22, 2015, 04:33:26 am
Today's tests went well.   However, I'm sorry to say, I am done for a while.   It has been a solid, three day frenzy with a lack of sleep, food and exorcise.  I managed to run the last set of tests but I am no longer thinking clear and have started to make some mistakes.

What you don't see in these videos is how often I have had the generator apart to rebuild for the next test.   While there is always some risk, this is not something I want to play with when I'm tired.   

Things are only going to continue to get worse for the remaining meters as the source impedance stays fixed at 2 ohms, the time is pushed out to 50uS and the peaks are nearing 4KV.   The attached waveform shows how far things have progressed.   The generator is set for the next tests...  Who will survive???
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on June 22, 2015, 04:40:03 am
In your video, you said you believed that Klein unit could survive higher than a 10 foot drop.  A quick google search returned this.
Those $4 Chinese meters can survive that...

Here's me dropping one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWBSBJ16zWg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWBSBJ16zWg)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 22, 2015, 05:58:40 am


Really, you specifically should run these tests!   If you can do the 8/20 2 ohm, you are all set.   Think your work would let you rent the lab for 4 days free of charge?   :-DD


There wouldn't be a need to "rent it".  I can have access to it whenever I want.  My point was that I was not going to spend my money ordering out meters to blow up for the fun of it.  I would have fun doing it, but I have other uses for my money.

However, I really appreciate that dedicated people like you have no issue spending money for that kind of fun.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 22, 2015, 06:04:43 am

I have a picture of the beast the day it arrived, but I don't know how to post it on here. It is pretty massive.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on June 22, 2015, 06:48:01 am

I have a picture of the beast the day it arrived, but I don't know how to post it on here.
At the bottom of the page when posting there is a plus sign for attachments, click this and follow your nose.  ;)
Note the restrictions of type and size of files.
I suggest you compress the pics, usually 100K will give plenty of detail.

If you Quote somebodies post, you will see the various formats used to display pics.
Some host pics, others use EEVblog and upload.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on June 22, 2015, 08:46:31 am

I have a picture of the beast the day it arrived, but I don't know how to post it on here.
At the bottom of the page when posting there is a plus sign for attachments, click this and follow your nose.  ;)
Note the restrictions of type and size of files.
I suggest you compress the pics, usually 100K will give plenty of detail.

If you Quote somebodies post, you will see the various formats used to display pics.
Some host pics, others use EEVblog and upload.

 I use IMGUR a lot, with an account on IMGUR. Haven't had ANY images deleted and seems to be pretty stable. In fact, looking back over a few older posts from a few years ago. I still used IMGUR without an account and those images have not been deleted either.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on June 22, 2015, 11:23:08 am
Cool, looks like a nasty bit of gear.  :o

Tip
Place a "Insert image" link in your post, then post, copy the original image's link URL, then edit post placing the URL between the "Insert Image" brackets.

Like this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/?action=dlattach;attach=157646)

Now if you quote this post you can see the syntax used.  ;)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 22, 2015, 12:01:22 pm
Maybe I'll stop by Harbor Freight tomorrow, and pick up a $5 meter, and see what this machine will do to that.  I don't mind blowing up a $5 meter.  I just can't justify several $50 meters like Joe.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 22, 2015, 01:17:17 pm


Really, you specifically should run these tests!   If you can do the 8/20 2 ohm, you are all set.   Think your work would let you rent the lab for 4 days free of charge?   :-DD


There wouldn't be a need to "rent it".  I can have access to it whenever I want.  My point was that I was not going to spend my money ordering out meters to blow up for the fun of it.  I would have fun doing it, but I have other uses for my money.

However, I really appreciate that dedicated people like you have no issue spending money for that kind of fun.

That's very nice of them to allow employees access to such equipment for their own use!  Do you have to be trained and have a second person around or can you just run it?   

No problem.  Maybe a few of us can learn something from it, plus have a little fun at the same time.

I've attached a picture of the surge generator.  It is 27 inches high, and 24 deep, and about 17 wide.  The thing weighs over 100 pounds, and can deliver the full 6000 Amps at 12 kV.  If I remember right, it set the lab back about $34,000.

 :-DD  Notice the slight difference in size!   :-DD    I was not able to find the correct manual for it.   Is the jumper on the left the 2 ohm and the right 12?   So you add a jumper for the source?   

I do not see where the power feeds into it from the manual or how if connects to the different circuits.  They have a simple schematic and call out the values used.  They do not show the AC at all.   Is it basically just for the telcom industry? 

Ones I am used to can impose the wave on the AC.  L-L L-N L-G ....  It then synchronizes with the AC wave.    I think we can handle a 30A 4-wire circuit with ours and are limited to 300V for the mains.    To test the meters you would need to have the signal ride on the AC.    Imagine the fun!!

If it really is just the waveform,  it still has the potential to do far more damage than my homemade generator.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on June 22, 2015, 01:48:10 pm
Imagine the fun!!
You're  >:D  >:D  >:D
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 22, 2015, 03:44:29 pm

Quote
101.4  Functional  integrity
After the voltage of  4.4.2.101  has  been applied to the  METER, the  METER  shall continue to be
able to indicate the presence of HAZARDOUS  LIVE  voltages up to the maximum RATED  voltage.

If this is relevant, then any meter you have failed before this video that also has a CATII rating or higher can't be sold in the EU legally. The ones that failed this video with a CATIII rating also cannot. It is my understanding, from watching a video by Martin Lorton at the Fluke facilities, that the US has no restrictions on the legal sale of multimeters, not yet.

There is another part that specifies that any meter should not fail in a way that could harm the user. I wonder how that is actually tested without putting a person in harm's way?


I have stated this a few times as well about the standards should be available for free if the concern is really with the public.   If you want a copy, they are available for purchase.   

The requirements are not clear in many areas. 
Quote
REASONABLY FORESEEABLE MISUSE
  These people have no idea what I consider reasonable misuse!


Quote
61010-2-033:2012
....
101 Measuring circuits
....
101.4 Functional integrity
After the voltage of 4.4.2.101 has been applied to the METER, the METER shall continue to be
able to indicate the presence of HAZARDOUS LIVE voltages up to the maximum RATED voltage.
....
NOTE The METER is not required to maintain its normal accuracy. A maximum deviation of 10 % is acceptable.
....
Conformity is checked by inspection while applying the maximum RATED voltage of each
voltage measurement range capable of MAINS voltage measurements.
.....

4.4.2.101 Input voltages
For measuring circuit TERMINALS RATED for MAINS CIRCUITS voltage measurements:
.....

Note 4.4.2.101 does not talk about surge.   For that, refer to 14.101. 

Quote
14.101 Circuits or components used as TRANSIENT OVERVOLTAGE limiting devices in
measuring circuits used to measure MAINS

This is the section I read aloud in the one video.     

Quote
The test voltage is applied between each pair of TERMINALS, used to measure MAINS, where
voltage-limiting devices are present.
NOTE This test can be extremely hazardous. Explosion shields and other provisions can be used to protect
personnel performing the test.


Hopefully that answers your question
Quote
I wonder how that is actually tested without putting a person in harm's way?


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on June 22, 2015, 05:52:15 pm
That was pretty funny!   Did you take the battery apart and find some small button batteries inside?
It rattled enough...

Your recommended Fluke 101 is holding up just fine so far.
I'd be surprised if it didn't. We know Fluke take the component layouts, track gaps, etc., very seriously. I suspect they left out the current measurement in the 101 because it's impossible to do a safe layout for a low-impedance path through a meter that small.

If your tests could make it fail much below its rating then you'd probably be getting a call from Fluke to investigate.

My only real complaints with this meter is how slow the continuity test is and the lack of a back light for the LCD.   
It's not a great meter for electronics work but it's a pretty good meter for an electrician, especially with the safety probes (which I don't think any of your other meters have).
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 23, 2015, 03:08:08 am
It's not a great meter for electronics work but it's a pretty good meter for an electrician, especially with the safety probes (which I don't think any of your other meters have).

Could you start by post a few pictures of what you are calling safety probes?   I'll post a few of what was included with the meters.   I suspect you have seen a different set of leads supplied with the 101 than what I received.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 23, 2015, 08:33:52 am
It's not a great meter for electronics work but it's a pretty good meter for an electrician, especially with the safety probes (which I don't think any of your other meters have).

Could you start by post a few pictures of what you are calling safety probes?   I'll post a few of what was included with the meters.   I suspect you have seen a different set of leads supplied with the 101 than what I received.

And here you go.  Pictures of the Fluke 101, BK 2703C and the MASTECH probes.    I fail to see why the Fluke 101 probes would be considered a safety probe.     


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 23, 2015, 08:37:25 am
And a last minute entry arrives all the way from China. 





Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 23, 2015, 09:13:29 am
I am very interested to see how the UT139C behaves with your tests. I have been recommending it as a worthy meter for almost anything a hobbyist would need a meter for. It sure looks like it has proper input protection, so hopefully we will see!
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 23, 2015, 10:07:22 am
I am very interested to see how the UT139C behaves with your tests. I have been recommending it as a worthy meter for almost anything a hobbyist would need a meter for. It sure looks like it has proper input protection, so hopefully we will see!

I have started testing again.  I see no point in setting up to run the lower energy transients to see where UT139C fails by comparison.   Rather I have meters that will pass my current levels so I plan to just test this one with them.   If it lives, it will stay with the meters that pass.  If it dies, we just know it was not a contender for the top $50 meter bracket.   

While the IEC  standard calls for a 1.2us rise/50us decay with an open and a 2 ohm source at 4KV, I again caution everyone that even though I am now testing at slightly over 3.7KV with a 50us decay into an open and with a 2 ohm source, there is no AC involved.   Do not consider these tests as any more than they are, pure entertainment and maybe some bragging rights. 

Another meter just failed...   RIP my friend.     
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Vgkid on June 23, 2015, 11:09:48 am
You killed the Klein.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 23, 2015, 11:36:36 am
:-DD    I was not able to find the correct manual for it.   Is the jumper on the left the 2 ohm and the right 12?   So you add a jumper for the source?   

I do not see where the power feeds into it from the manual or how if connects to the different circuits.  They have a simple schematic and call out the values used.  They do not show the AC at all.   Is it basically just for the telcom industry? 

Ones I am used to can impose the wave on the AC.  L-L L-N L-G ....  It then synchronizes with the AC wave.    I think we can handle a 30A 4-wire circuit with ours and are limited to 300V for the mains.    To test the meters you would need to have the signal ride on the AC.    Imagine the fun!!

If it really is just the waveform,  it still has the potential to do far more damage than my homemade generator.

The generator that I use is for telecom.  This is not the one I use, but is in my lab. This generator pictured is "supposed" to be for IEC 61010 testing only.

There are 2 output jacks. You plug into the ones on the right for 12 ohm, and on the left for the 2 ohm output. There are two plugs for each output to allow two wires to handle the current, but keep the wire gauge down so they are flexible.  This machine does not allow AC into it, and is just the pulse. When they want to use AC with it, they put an inductor in the circuit between the AC and the pulse. But there is no syncing the pulse with the peak of the AC.  Since the spec say the maximum AC that the pulse can be riding on is 400V, I guess you could get the equivelant by just adding an additional 400V to the pulse and setting it for 4,400 or 6,400, or 8,400.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 23, 2015, 11:43:38 am
You killed the Klein.

 :-DD :-DD :-DD

Klein has that "Tougher Than" project.   Someone needs to link these videos for them and show them that there are a few people who actually are putting their product through an electrical test rather than having a chicken peck at it or an RC car drag it. 


Klein, tougher than Cen-Tech
Klein, tougher than Mastech
Klein, tougher than Gardner Bender
Klein, tougher than BK Precision
Klein, tougher than EXTECH

and the list grows.....

Just finished testing.  Included the new 139C in the mix.   3 of the 5 meters survived and you know the Klein Tools MM500 is right there on top.  Lot's of sparks and some nice part fragments to show for the last several hours.

And you people that think a meter is hard to design to handle this sort of punishment, well, there appears to be a few companies that can get the job done! 

I am afraid this is the end of the road for the toy generator.  The remaining three meters have taken everything I could throw at them.   It will take me some time to build something larger.   In the mean time, enjoy the videos.  I'll put the new ones up in a day or so.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on June 23, 2015, 12:49:49 pm
And here you go.  Pictures of the Fluke 101, BK 2703C and the MASTECH probes.    I fail to see why the Fluke 101 probes would be considered a safety probe.     
OK, they have them as well...

Point is: Many cheap meters don't have decent probes.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 23, 2015, 01:47:15 pm
And here you go.  Pictures of the Fluke 101, BK 2703C and the MASTECH probes.    I fail to see why the Fluke 101 probes would be considered a safety probe.     
OK, they have them as well...

Point is: Many cheap meters don't have decent probes.

Many cheap ones may not but we are looking at some high quality, low cost meters  :-DD :-DD

Top set is for the AMPROBE AM-510, center is from the Klein Tools MM500, lower is from the UNI-T UT-90A.   Personally, for what I would use a hand held meter for, these are all fine.  If I had to pick, it would be the BK probes.  Guessing they are made by the same company as the MASTECH but with the threaded end, I have some other tips that will work with them.

I like some of the Fluke probes and own one of their sets.   Second picture shows the probes I purchased for the attenuator versus my Fluke probes.   These work very well for probing fine pitch and other small parts.   They are CAT III 3A rated. 

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 24, 2015, 12:45:13 am
I think we can handle a 30A 4-wire circuit with ours and are limited to 300V for the mains.    To test the meters you would need to have the signal ride on the AC.    Imagine the fun!!

So, based on this comment, it seems your work has a more powerful machine than what you built up. Any chance you can put the 3 survivors on that?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 24, 2015, 03:13:35 am
I think we can handle a 30A 4-wire circuit with ours and are limited to 300V for the mains.    To test the meters you would need to have the signal ride on the AC.    Imagine the fun!!

So, based on this comment, it seems your work has a more powerful machine than what you built up. Any chance you can put the 3 survivors on that?

Not really.   I would like the test the high dollar meter against the surviving $50 meter on a real setup.   

Videos are done processing.  Should be able to post them tonight.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Mark on June 24, 2015, 03:19:02 am
Look what arrived today!  An 8kV surge generator. 

I thought I had some cheap-assed multimeters for sacrifice, but I now remember throwing them out... so the cheapest I have is a Maplin N72CG...  it is looking nervous. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 24, 2015, 03:43:01 am
Now we are talking!   :-+   2 phase 16A model? 

You get it all running, I am curious how fast it charges in 8KV.   Ours takes about 20 seconds for 5KV.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 24, 2015, 05:18:20 am
Well,

I hit a $5 Harbor Freight DMM with 12kV through 2 ohms today.  I was less than impressed by the failure.  Just a flash, with no flying components.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Mark on June 24, 2015, 08:05:44 am
Now we are talking!   :-+   2 phase 16A model? 

You get it all running, I am curious how fast it charges in 8KV.   Ours takes about 20 seconds for 5KV.   

30 sec for 8kV and 15 sec for 4kV, haven't had time to do much more than that with it!
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 24, 2015, 10:34:15 am
Good deal.  Starting to not feel so alone.   Let's see some video from these real generators doing the deed! 

Running the surviving four meters at 3.2KV.   WARNING!!!!  THIS IS A VERY NON EVENTFUL VIDEO!!!!  It's just there so you know I ran the test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Q_CiqXTh8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Q_CiqXTh8)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 24, 2015, 11:20:47 am
I am very interested to see how the UT139C behaves with your tests. I have been recommending it as a worthy meter for almost anything a hobbyist would need a meter for. It sure looks like it has proper input protection, so hopefully we will see!

And here you go.   The brand new UNI-T UT-139C is tested against the four remaining meters.  It had never been subjected to any transients compared with the others that have been through a small war.  It had the advantage.   

Three meters remain in full functional condition after this....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD5mxS_SkQk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD5mxS_SkQk)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Vgkid on June 24, 2015, 12:09:02 pm
Interesting that the UT90A only failed on the diode test. I figured that it would have fried the resistance measurenment as well.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 24, 2015, 12:25:40 pm
Interesting that the UT90A only failed on the diode test. I figured that it would have fried the resistance measurenment as well.

Don't worry, I took care of it in the next round!!  :-DD 

Testing continues tonight at 5KV 2ohm 40uS (open).  Still 1KV off their rated, no AC and 10uS short.     

 One more meter was lost so far besides finishing off the UNI-T UT90A.   One has passed and the last one is being tested now.   We may have our winner tonight!!   



After hitting it a second time, I took this meter apart.  Next to the PTC, there is R46.  There is a VERY thin trace that routes from R46 to the switch.  Then from that same section of the switch to a via to a much wider trace.  The two sections of thin trace were vaporized. 


As it turned out, there were three very small traces that were vaporized.  I spent some time repairing them and tried the meter out.  Close but after looking further there is a part that appears to be shorted as well.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 24, 2015, 12:36:21 pm
I am sorry to say that I have been unable to declare a winner.  The two remaining meters must actually handle the 61010 standard and stay functional.   

Klein Tools, tougher than UNI-T
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on June 24, 2015, 03:43:51 pm
baby Fluke still alive?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on June 24, 2015, 09:15:51 pm

Time to start thinking about what to do with so many non-functional meters.......
Buy/Sell/Wanted.   DMMs like new little used.  :-DD
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on June 25, 2015, 02:23:30 am
I am sorry to say that I have been unable to declare a winner.

Can you ramp it up any higher? Keep going until one of them breaks.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 25, 2015, 04:54:24 am
Harbor Feight DMM at 6kV blowing the input fuse.  Slo-mo

https://youtu.be/EeOvQ7VUYt8 (https://youtu.be/EeOvQ7VUYt8)

Harbor Freight DMM with fuse shorted, blowing the traces. Slo-mo

https://youtu.be/BOsekwQO68Y (https://youtu.be/BOsekwQO68Y)

Uni-T 201 clamp getting chip blown off board at 6kV. Slo-mo

https://youtu.be/mdLRPyt0ND4 (https://youtu.be/mdLRPyt0ND4)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 25, 2015, 06:16:57 am
Interesting that the UT90A only failed on the diode test. I figured that it would have fried the resistance measurenment as well.

But, should ANY meter even be subjected to a 4kV surge on the diode test, resistance, or continuity?

The way I read 61010, surge testing like this should only be done on the MAINS measurement terminal. These tests are to simulate a lightning strike while measuring MAINS, or an inductive kick on the mains if power is broken from the serving transformer when that measurement is being taken. When would anyone ever see a 4kV, or greater, spike when doing a diode test or continuity.

Now, I realize Joe is testing these to see which meter can take his abuse the best.  But, I don't think any of us should expect a meter to see an 4kV spike (or survive one) when doing a diode test.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 25, 2015, 06:23:57 am
As far as I understand the standards, every function is to be tested with every terminal.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 25, 2015, 06:58:33 am
As far as I understand the standards, every function is to be tested with every terminal.

That's not the way I read the standards.

If the meter measures to 600V, then the standards require that the meter does not become a Hazard when 600V is applied to ANY terminal, and set on any dial position. So, I agree with your statement that Voltage should be applied to diode test, or the current jacks, etc.  This falls into the "reasonable misuse" of the meter category, where a user could have the meter on the wrong dial position, or plugged in the wrong jacks, and you go to measure a Voltage.

But, not the surge pulses.  The standard does not require you to handle 4, or 6, or 8kV when you are measuring a diode. This would never happen as a "misuse" of the meter, and you would never get a 8kV spike when measuring a diode.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: ivan747 on June 25, 2015, 07:29:14 am
Have you tested the Fluke 101 yet?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: IanB on June 25, 2015, 08:44:41 am
Now, I realize Joe is testing these to see which meter can take his abuse the best.  But, I don't think any of us should expect a meter to see an 4kV spike (or survive one) when doing a diode test.

It's worse than that. I think the chances of there being a 4 kV spike on the mains at the exact instant I am measuring the voltage is in the millions to one region. I would have more chance of winning the lottery than experiencing that event. Consider that in the half century of my lifetime there have been multitudes of devices plugged in to the mains 24 h a day in all the homes I have lived in, and none of them have experienced damage from such a surge. That's tens of thousands of hours of constant connection to the mains without such an event. Compare that to the maybe five minutes total I have spent probing the mains (assuming each measurement takes only a few seconds to make).

I think that for the industrial electrician, a professional tool is required that meets such standards.

For normal consumers in a home environment, such testing regimes are  totally out of proportion to the risk. Mandating such testing for consumer retail devices is simply forcing prices up unnecessarily.

(On the other hand, if a device is marked with a certain rating, then it certainly ought to be required to be compliant with those standards.)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 25, 2015, 09:50:03 am
As far as I understand the standards, every function is to be tested with every terminal.

That's not the way I read the standards.

Unfortunately I do not have the full standards, and that is why I qualified the statement. Like I said before, the IEC is doing a big disservice by making the standards available for payment only. These are public safety standards and as such should be made publicly free so the average Joe can see them.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 25, 2015, 10:47:29 am
As far as I understand the standards, every function is to be tested with every terminal.

That's not the way I read the standards.

Unfortunately I do not have the full standards, and that is why I qualified the statement. Like I said before, the IEC is doing a big disservice by making the standards available for payment only. These are public safety standards and as such should be made publicly free so the average Joe can see them.

Attached is the section of 61010-2-033 that talks about testing for mismatch inputs. It only mentions applying voltage, not surges.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on June 25, 2015, 10:53:52 am
Now, I realize Joe is testing these to see which meter can take his abuse the best.  But, I don't think any of us should expect a meter to see an 4kV spike (or survive one) when doing a diode test.

It's worse than that. I think the chances of there being a 4 kV spike on the mains at the exact instant I am measuring the voltage is in the millions to one region. I would have more chance of winning the lottery than experiencing that event. Consider that in the half century of my lifetime there have been multitudes of devices plugged in to the mains 24 h a day in all the homes I have lived in, and none of them have experienced damage from such a surge. That's tens of thousands of hours of constant connection to the mains without such an event. Compare that to the maybe five minutes total I have spent probing the mains (assuming each measurement takes only a few seconds to make).

I think that for the industrial electrician, a professional tool is required that meets such standards.

For normal consumers in a home environment, such testing regimes are  totally out of proportion to the risk. Mandating such testing for consumer retail devices is simply forcing prices up unnecessarily.

(On the other hand, if a device is marked with a certain rating, then it certainly ought to be required to be compliant with those standards.)
If you're dealing with inductive loads you may also encounter spikes. Even a little DC relay can generate 300v spikes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6I7Ycbv8B8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6I7Ycbv8B8)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 25, 2015, 11:14:38 am
As far as I understand the standards, every function is to be tested with every terminal.

That's not the way I read the standards.

Unfortunately I do not have the full standards, and that is why I qualified the statement. Like I said before, the IEC is doing a big disservice by making the standards available for payment only. These are public safety standards and as such should be made publicly free so the average Joe can see them.

Attached here is the section of 61010-2-033 that discusses the surge testing. This only discusses the function of the meter that tests MAINS, and only "IF" transient protection is used (because it is optional).  IF it is used, it can't fail, but it does not have to be used.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 25, 2015, 03:43:59 pm
Consider that one of the principal partners of IEC is the WTO.   Are the standards more about trade restrictions and bureaucracy than safety?

"... shall operate as intended ..."  As a designer, we know MOVs have a limited life like all parts.  They can fail in a not so nice way.  I would say this is intended operation.     

Maybe ask your TUV safety inspector their take on it.  See if you can nail them down....  Use the word "safe" a lot too!   

Again, my goal is not to debate a spec that is filled with holes.   

As for how products are used,  I would never underestimate man's ability to do stupid things, myself included!     

If you're dealing with inductive loads you may also encounter spikes. Even a little DC relay can generate 300v spikes.

I agree that while I am using the IEC standards as a guideline for my waveforms, there is nothing in those standards about the countless transients you can see when working even on low voltage.   If you ever used the old door bell as a transient generator, you know where I am coming from.     Testing the meters this way does not mean that they would withstand all of the conditions you can come up with.  It may however indicate what companies have considered protecting their designs for such events.     Would I buy or recommend a meter than lives or one that fails?   If it were to a novice, I would suggest the most bullet proof meter I could find.    If they wanted more features and a less robust meter down the road, so be it.     

One thing this testing has shown me is that as a novice, you could buy a very robust meter for under $50!   

The meters I have are all being tested the same.   Not having it automated, and every meter being different, there are a few things that change and this is why I left the entire tests in the video.  It's not there because it is so exciting to watch, it there if someone were to question what had been done.   So not a lot of drama or fluff but at least it may provide people with some sort of real world testing to help them make a decision when it comes time for them to purchase a meter.   

 :blah: :blah: :blah:



Time to start thinking about what to do with so many non-functional meters.......
Buy/Sell/Wanted.   DMMs like new little used.  :-DD

Are you making an offer??!!   :-DD :-DD :-DD     

I am sorry to say that I have been unable to declare a winner.

Can you ramp it up any higher? Keep going until one of them breaks.


This has always been the plan.   Don't underestimate my ability to break things!   :-DD   Yea, I can ramp it up alright!     The key has been to make small changes.  Otherwise, they may have all failed at once and we would not really learn anything from the experiment.

So stay tuned!

Now, I realize Joe is testing these to see which meter can take his abuse the best.  But, I don't think any of us should expect a meter to see an 4kV spike (or survive one) when doing a diode test.

As far as the current testing is concerned, I would expect the next meter I purchase to handle at least a 4KV spike in diode test.  I am way beyond that now and a few meters are still fine...   

I can believe that manufactures would make arguments like this to side step the fact that their products are not as robust as a competitors.   This makes no difference to me.  The testing continues.....


Have you tested the Fluke 101 yet?

Both Danaher meters are in good hands....  :-DD   


Sorry for the long post.    The moment you have all been waiting for... The SEMI FINALS!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqdCe23OKsQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqdCe23OKsQ)


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 25, 2015, 03:54:28 pm
Great! One question. What happened to the UT139C. Your last video ended before the end of the testing. Did I miss something?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 25, 2015, 04:14:51 pm
There's only room for one meter at the top!   I have continued to modify the home made generator throughout this testing and it is on the brink of failure as it is now being pushed to 6KV in an attempt to take down one last meter!   More capacitors means less room and more Teflon has had to be added to prevent internal arcs.   I never expected any of these meters to survive the conditions I have put them through.   I think the ones that have really deserve my business.   No matter of my personally feelings about Fluke after buying my first one in the early 80's,  they have come a long long way to improve their designs if they can make a $50 meter survive the tests so far.   

I wish the Fluke's continuity function worked better and it had back light for the LCD.   

The same for it's brother, the AMPROBE.  Dang, it's one tough meter!  It has more features than the Fluke, like AC/DC current and NCV.   Not to mention that the continuity feature is fast and it has an LCD back light.   

One last test to run, one last video to make.   


Great! One question. What happened to the UT139C. Your last video ended before the end of the testing. Did I miss something?

So many videos, so much data, so little time.  I watched and no, you did not miss anything.  I must have edited it out or something.    :palm:   That was the best part of the whole video too!!!   So I won't spoil it for you.   Let me make a single video just for the 139C.   It will be worth it!




Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 25, 2015, 04:18:40 pm
Thanks! I was surprised that the UT139C died. It looked very promising and I have one here. I was impressed by it but maybe not now.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 25, 2015, 04:32:29 pm
It's not so much that it died, it is how it died.  The video will be well worth watching.   I'll get it up there in the next day.   

I was joking with a friend of mine about this experiment and I made the comment that every one of the meters I had bought for it was better than any hand held I had ever owned in my entire life.   I think when it comes to making a recommendation the best you can do is help educate people so they can make better choices. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on June 25, 2015, 06:17:44 pm
It's not so much that it died, it is how it died.  The video will be well worth watching.
Shrapnel?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 25, 2015, 09:06:20 pm
It's not so much that it died, it is how it died.  The video will be well worth watching.
Shrapnel?


I'm sure if I ran the real test with the mains, we would have had some real drama.   

Video is processing now...
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 25, 2015, 10:23:05 pm
Thanks! I was surprised that the UT139C died. It looked very promising and I have one here. I was impressed by it but maybe not now.

Here is the UNI-T UT-139C taking the hit.   Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GjB3eUpDFY&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GjB3eUpDFY&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on June 25, 2015, 10:55:16 pm
Fluke meters at the low end are very spartan, they don't skimp on protection but the features take a back seat. But sounds like that Amprobe is a real winner though. I mean in that price range it's got a decent set of features and it can take the abuse.

Although Fluke 101 has its compact size going for it for a sort of a pocket meter.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Vgkid on June 25, 2015, 11:15:56 pm
I was amazed that you killed the Klein, I liked its small size/lack of features.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: ivan747 on June 26, 2015, 03:01:52 am
As far as I understand the standards, every function is to be tested with every terminal.

But the meter is not required to survive.

I can see some companies will want the meter to survive on AC volts range, for example, but on diode test they would just let the thing break inside safely as per the standards.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on June 26, 2015, 03:13:13 am
Fluke meters at the low end are very spartan, they don't skimp on protection but the features take a back seat.
You say that like it's a bad thing.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 26, 2015, 04:27:26 am
Thanks for the video. The failure of the UT139C seems to have been either a faulty PTC, bad spacing on the tracks that caused an arc over and then the failure of the PTC which then overloaded the MOVs too many times and then every time after the MOVs were a dead short and caused the big flashes.

If you are willing, I think it would make good videos investigating the failure mode of at least some of the meters and see if they could be repaired by just replacing a part or two.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on June 26, 2015, 04:42:18 am
Fluke meters at the low end are very spartan, they don't skimp on protection but the features take a back seat.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Heh, I am just thinking of people who are just getting into electronics and what to recommend to them, if I was on a tight budget for my first multimeter I would be hard pressed between the Amprobe and the F-101. I would most likely pick the Amprobe. For mid range meters and upper tier, definitely Fluke 87.

Amazon lists AM-510 at $37.88. Pretty impressive.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on June 26, 2015, 06:02:29 am
Heh, I am just thinking of people who are just getting into electronics and what to recommend to them, if I was on a tight budget for my first multimeter I would be hard pressed between the Amprobe and the F-101.
The Fluke lacks current measurement. Definitely not good for electronics work (it's aimed more at electricians).

Amazon lists AM-510 at $37.88. Pretty impressive.
Yep. Seems like a nice meter for that price.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 26, 2015, 06:21:57 am
It is not my intent to diminish the work and findings of joeqsmith with what I am about to say. His tests show one thing and one thing only, ie the ability of a meter to survive his pulse tests. This is something to consider when buying a meter but it is not the only criteria that a newbie should used in selecting a meter. It is still unclear whether a meter needs to survive and function after a test similar to this to be considered to have met the requirements of the IEC specifications for CAT ratings. It could be, and is my understanding, than multimeters only need to not harm the end user in this failure mode, with a pulse test. If this is the case, then all meters that did not harm the user in this test still meet their CAT ratings under the IEC rules.

The AM-510 is not a good meter just because it passed these tests, rather it is a good meter because it has the functions most needed and works as advertised and for a really good price. The fact that it passed these tests is just another point to consider but not necessarily the most important. I have not seen a full review of the AM-510 and have no direct experience with it. The assessment that it is a good meter, on my part, is that it appears to be well built and has the functions that are necessary for most people, and at a very good price.

I only write this to address the inexperienced or newbies who might take such an impressive set of videos and their dramatic results as being the main criteria for buying a multimeter and focus only that aspect. Safety is important, but none of these videos demonstrated an unsafe condition that I could see.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on June 26, 2015, 07:08:57 am
I have some experience with $100 Amprobe meters and they are certainly of good quality. It's a decent brand. So I had my suspicion that Am-510 was going to pass the torture test. This just reaffirms it.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 26, 2015, 07:17:24 am
Amprobe seems to use three different manufacturers for their products, at least three. The AM-5x0 series seem to be made by Uni-T, at least that what has been speculated by some here on the forums. The AM-270, AM-140 and 160 are definitely made by Brymen. The others in the AM-2x0 series are not clear. The XR series were originally sold by other brands and bought out so I am not sure who actually makes those. The HD series is an unknown to me but they sure seem to be made tough.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on June 26, 2015, 07:51:16 am
Amprobe seems to use three different manufacturers for their products, at least three. The AM-5x0 series seem to be made by Uni-T, at least that what has been speculated by some here on the forums. The AM-270, AM-140 and 160 are definitely made by Brymen. The others in the AM-2x0 series are not clear. The XR series were originally sold by other brands and bought out so I am not sure who actually makes those. The HD series is an unknown to me but they sure seem to be made tough.

The HD series I think are old Wavetek models (Amprobe acquired Wavetek and these are the leftovers from that acquisition). Not sure about the XR series, maybe these are wavetek too? Haven't looked into it enough
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: retiredcaps on June 26, 2015, 07:55:35 am
Not sure about the XR series, maybe these are wavetek too?
XR came from acquistion of Meterman.

Dave did a video review way back in eevblog #6 of the Meterman 37XR.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 26, 2015, 12:46:39 pm
Hi Joe,

Since you are skilled enough to build your own generator, and have demonstrated coupling voltage with the surges, I could use your advice.

I want to couple AC voltage with the surge generator I pictured in this thread. I've researched what inductor should be used to couple this, and 1.5 mH seems the most common recommendation. But, I also want a inductor that can handle a considerable amount of current. So, I found a few 10A inductors, but not a 1.5 mH. In the 10A rating, they have a 1 mH, and a 2.5 mH.  Could you tell me which size inductor would be the best to use with the 1.2/50 pulse width?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 26, 2015, 01:59:14 pm
It is not my intent to diminish the work and findings of joeqsmith with what I am about to say. His tests show one thing and one thing only, ie the ability of a meter to survive his pulse tests. This is something to consider when buying a meter but it is not the only criteria that a newbie should used in selecting a meter.

No problem. 

This may be all you took away from this experiment but there was a lot to learn.   I understand, you sell products like hand held meters.   I'm not suggesting you would ever add your own bias to make more sales.   You just need to make sure that you understand what is going on before you use this information as part of your sales pitch.   

Safety is important, but none of these videos demonstrated an unsafe condition that I could see.

That was never a goal.   Comments like this are why I don't think you really understand what can happen.    I covered this subject upfront.  If you don't feel that there are any concerns when an arc is combined with a high energy source, so be it.  Personally, I would not trivialize it to my customers. 

Thanks for the video. The failure of the UT139C seems to have been either a faulty PTC, bad spacing on the tracks that caused an arc over and then the failure of the PTC which then overloaded the MOVs too many times and then every time after the MOVs were a dead short and caused the big flashes.

If you are willing, I think it would make good videos investigating the failure mode of at least some of the meters and see if they could be repaired by just replacing a part or two.

There is no reason to spend a whole lot of time attempting to repair low cost devices like these.  Just buy a new one.   The goal was to find a meter that would survive, then you wouldn't need to be so concerned about replacing it.   I showed where most meters were damaged in the video.     

That said, I did waste some time repairing the UNI-T UT90A.  The control IC was still good.  Three traces had vaporized.  One diode was shorted, 2 resistors were open.  I aligned it and it seems fine.  Nothing I would give away because of the damage to the switch area. 

Sounds like you are most interested in the UT139C.     Q8, Q9, Q2, Q3, R42 and the main control IC are all damaged.    While the heat cracked the insulation around the one PTC, both of them are still fine.   

Most of the damaged meters were ran again at even higher voltages, causing even further damage to them.

I was amazed that you killed the Klein, I liked its small size/lack of features.
   

Klein Tools, not as strong as a set of channel locks!!  :-DD :-DD

The case is glued together.  Indeed, there is a relay in it.   I had attempted to contact  Klein, Fluke and AMPROBE by email.     I would have returned the Klein to them if they wanted it.  I am not sure what the problem is with it.  It appears the source was damaged, not the input.    I tested it again tonight after I ripped it (literally) apart.  It appears the PTC itself will not withstand the voltage.  It arcs and I am sure this caused the damage.    Of all of the meters, the mechanical design of this thing is fantastic, except you can not service it.   


Muxr and Fungus, I agree about the AMPROBE.  It really is a nice meter for the price.   I like it better than the Fluke.    I would like to have have a higher end Fluke, Keysight and AMPROBE to try and destroy (and I don't mean drop it).   

If I had any bias towards one brand during this test, it was with Fluke.   Again, I have to admit, this low cost Fluke really has changed my 30 year old view of their products.   Good job Fluke!!  :-+


Hi Joe,

Since you are skilled enough to build your own generator, and have demonstrated coupling voltage with the surges, I could use your advice.

I want to couple AC voltage with the surge generator I pictured in this thread. I've researched what inductor should be used to couple this, and 1.5 mH seems the most common recommendation. But, I also want a inductor that can handle a considerable amount of current. So, I found a few 10A inductors, but not a 1.5 mH. In the 10A rating, they have a 1 mH, and a 2.5 mH.  Could you tell me which size inductor would be the best to use with the 1.2/50 pulse width?

Sorry, I can't be of help other than suggest your life insurance is paid up.  I just don't know enough about it.  It's not just the current and inductance, that's a lot of voltage.    The company who built your generator may be willing to supply you with information on their networks.   You may find it better to get the right network for your system. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 26, 2015, 03:19:32 pm
It is not my intent to diminish the work and findings of joeqsmith with what I am about to say. His tests show one thing and one thing only, ie the ability of a meter to survive his pulse tests. This is something to consider when buying a meter but it is not the only criteria that a newbie should used in selecting a meter.

No problem. 

This may be all you took away from this experiment but there was a lot to learn.   I understand, you sell products like hand held meters.   I'm not suggesting you would ever add your own bias to make more sales.   You just need to make sure that you understand what is going on before you use this information as part of your sales pitch.   

Safety is important, but none of these videos demonstrated an unsafe condition that I could see.

That was never a goal.   Comments like this are why I don't think you really understand what can happen.    I covered this subject upfront.  If you don't feel that there are any concerns when an arc is combined with a high energy source, so be it.  Personally, I would not trivialize it to my customers.

Your videos on the whole subject did provide much to learn on the subject of high voltages with high energy and the protection against them. I did not say that your videos were only about the ability of a meter to survive his pulse tests. I said that the tests of the meters only demonstrated that about the multimeters being tested.

I think you misunderstood my intentions and/or the meaning of my message. Because of this I also think you misunderstand my knowledge and experience with these kinds of things. I specifically said that these tests should not be the focus of buying a multimeter and that there are other considerations too. You yourself have said that these tests are not up to the standards required by the IEC and so I am merely saying that they should be considered incomplete to determine the safety of a multimeter. To be clear, the multimeters I distribute and sell are only Brymen, in most of South America, no where else, and no other manufacturer. I take safety seriously and my history here on the forums can vouch for that. Brymen also takes safety seriously. All of their current lineup meet the latest IEC requirements, and all are 3rd party tested by UL.

My message was to those looking to decide what multimeter to buy, as inexperienced and new comers to the hobby, and possibly thinking that your videos should be the sole focus for a purchasing decision. It is similar to a person focusing only on the accuracy specification on DC volts and not considering the other specifications that also make a big difference.

I also fully understood the goal of your tests and videos. I never said anything otherwise. I also fully understand the problems of safety and the serious nature of electrical hazards. To imply that I am trivializing the safety of my customers is to not understand what I have been doing here on the forums for years, and to not understand what I said in that post. I get the feeling that you have never read anything I have posted before on this subject except here in this thread. That could explain why you could accuse me of being casual on the subject of multimeter safety.

Thanks for the video. The failure of the UT139C seems to have been either a faulty PTC, bad spacing on the tracks that caused an arc over and then the failure of the PTC which then overloaded the MOVs too many times and then every time after the MOVs were a dead short and caused the big flashes.

If you are willing, I think it would make good videos investigating the failure mode of at least some of the meters and see if they could be repaired by just replacing a part or two.

There is no reason to spend a whole lot of time attempting to repair low cost devices like these.  Just buy a new one.   The goal was to find a meter that would survive, then you wouldn't need to be so concerned about replacing it.   I showed where most meters were damaged in the video.     

That said, I did waste some time repairing the UNI-T UT90A.  The control IC was still good.  Three traces had vaporized.  One diode was shorted, 2 resistors were open.  I aligned it and it seems fine.  Nothing I would give away because of the damage to the switch area. 

Sounds like you are most interested in the UT139C.     Q8, Q9, Q2, Q3, R42 and the main control IC are all damaged.    While the heat cracked the insulation around the one PTC, both of them are still fine.   

Most of the damaged meters were ran again at even higher voltages, causing even further damage to them.

Wow, that is a bunch of damage to the UT139C. It certainly looked like it was well protected but that is why multimeters need third party testing to prove their claims. Even then, all the damage and arcing was contained in the housing, from what I could see, so it is still not evidence that it didn't match its CAT rating. (Take note, I never have, and am not saying now, that you are claiming to verify the CAT ratings nor that your videos are to be taken as evidence for such a test)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 27, 2015, 12:08:15 am
Sorry, I can't be of help other than suggest your life insurance is paid up.  I just don't know enough about it.  It's not just the current and inductance, that's a lot of voltage.   

I find that statement kind of funny, since it is coming from a guy who was doing his testing with the open meter a few feet away, and even changing switch positions while timing out the surges. At least I built a blast chamber made with half inch Lexan for my testing.

But, I get you not wanting to give advice if something went wrong on my end.  I would have not coupled through 400V.  I would have started with less than 100V, and put some 10A HRC fuses in line to limit any danger. The spec says that blowing the circuit breaker would be a failure to this test, so opening those fuses would be an indication of failure. That would help limit any danger.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 27, 2015, 04:00:42 am
Sorry, I can't be of help other than suggest your life insurance is paid up.  I just don't know enough about it.  It's not just the current and inductance, that's a lot of voltage.   

I find that statement kind of funny, since it is coming from a guy who was doing his testing with the open meter a few feet away, and even changing switch positions while timing out the surges. At least I built a blast chamber made with half inch Lexan for my testing.

But, I get you not wanting to give advice if something went wrong on my end.  I would have not coupled through 400V.  I would have started with less than 100V, and put some 10A HRC fuses in line to limit any danger. The spec says that blowing the circuit breaker would be a failure to this test, so opening those fuses would be an indication of failure. That would help limit any danger.

These videos certainly do not show proper safety, nor was it my intent to ever do so.    The ring, watch, use of 2-hands, use of home made non certified probes, the list goes on.     Without the line voltage, I am working on sub 20J.   Still lethal but it's a very controlled event and I am comfortable working on things of this nature.    The thing you did not mention is that I posted once how I had stopped testing because I was burned out and started to make some mistakes.       

If you look at what goes into a normal CDN you will find there is more than just an inductor.   Our network is about 2X larger than the generator.    Even with our setup, there is enough energy going back on the line that we have damaged other equipment in the lab.     

Yes, I did run a simple experiment using a single inductor to isolate a supply from the transient.  It was a very scaled down test.   I would hope the thing people took aware from this was how the arc started the event and the lower voltage sustained it.   Not that a simple inductor was all that was needed to isolate a real surge from the mains.   

One thing to consider is what tests should be ran to determine how electrically robust a multimeter is?  Sure dropping it, putting it into a bucket of water and plugging it into your AC outlet are all easy tests to perform but really it seems there should be some sort of standards the products could be tested to besides surge.   

The  IEC surge was the closest thing I could come up with.   As I noted, I dialed it way down lower than the IEC calls for and worked my way up.   Sure it does open the doors for people to read the standards are argue that they only need to fail safe.   :blah: :blah: :blah:   There are going to be people that don't get the point of the test.   

Again, I have no idea if the meters really would fail in such a way as not to meet the IEC standards.  If you want to know this, I would suggest you run them at an accredited lab.   This was not the intent!   If you want to know if one meter is more robust than another, I think the tests I have ran give a fair idea.   If you feel that the testing I performed is not an indicator of this, you are free to come up with your own tests and post them.     I would be very interested and welcome this and am sure others would be as well.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on June 27, 2015, 04:12:24 am
The thing you did not mention is that I posted once how I had stopped testing because I was burned out and started to make some mistakes.         
That certainly must have taken a lot of time to do. I certainly enjoyed the experiment and I appreciate you sharing it with us.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 27, 2015, 10:28:37 am
Here is a video I found on Fluke's testing lab, and all the tests they do.  The surge and over voltage testing are at the very end.

http://assets.fluke.com/video-MULTI/44095317_fluke_safety_lab.html (http://assets.fluke.com/video-MULTI/44095317_fluke_safety_lab.html)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on June 27, 2015, 12:29:16 pm
I can also say that I enjoyed them too. I think many people were grateful for your time and expense that put forward for the benefit of all.  :-+
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 28, 2015, 08:00:28 am
I can alssay that I enjoyed them too. I think many people were grateful for your time and expense that put forward for the benefit of all.  :-+

 :-+

It would have been nice to run comparisons like this on more meters but I think going forward I'll leave this to others with more resources available to them.   

I still plan to put the winner up against the Fluke 28 II and/or the Keysight U1272A and at least see of one of these meters can withstand the testing that the low cost meters have.   My fear is that some of the $50 meters may actually hold up better and I may damage a meter costing more than the entire amount spent so far.     

It's been almost one month to the day since I started looking into running this experiment.  Enjoy the finals....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBkjr3b5hQo&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBkjr3b5hQo&feature=youtu.be)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: John Coloccia on June 28, 2015, 08:32:04 am
"Looks like a hazardous condition to me"

 :-DD :-DD :-DD
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on June 28, 2015, 09:15:13 am
Good stuff Joe! That intro was fun.

If I was Fluke I would send you a new 28-II or an 87V  ;D
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: siggi on June 28, 2015, 09:29:15 am
Great videos, nice objective robustness criteria. Sure beats "feels solid", "better feeling plastic" reviews :).
I didn't care much for the DMM scat, but to each his own.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on June 28, 2015, 09:48:47 am
 :clap:  :-+

Gotta love your evil lady.  >:D

Great job Joe, it'll be interesting to see if any manufacturers contact you with revised models for you to retest.  :-DD
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 28, 2015, 10:45:00 am
Great job Joe!!

Now that I know the top meter, I wouldn't mind getting the Fluke 101, and see how much higher it can go. Now, I wouldn't have to buy 10 meters like you did, I could get just the one.  It would be interesting to see how far beyond 6kV it could go, since I could take it all the way to 12kV.

Too bad none of the companies you contacted got back to you. Since Fluke was the winner, it would have been nice for them to send you something else. Maybe they still will. But, it sucks that no companies even acknowledged you emails.

You should consider selling those boxes. Like you said, they go for 10's of thousands.  You could make a killing selling yours to people who can't afford the big ones.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Vgkid on June 28, 2015, 01:58:06 pm
Thanks for all of the work you have put into these test, thumbs up from me.  :-+
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: ivan747 on June 28, 2015, 02:39:51 pm
Thank you for sharing your findings and involving us in the process too.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on June 28, 2015, 10:04:26 pm
I second this wholeheartedly.  Great job. :clap:

More later, but one thing you could use your surge generator for doing the exact same tests are evaluating surge protectors, they are more improperly built compared to DMMs and have similar input protective circuitry.  However the let-through voltages are lower on the MOVs and they are more subject to burn violently as they can be exposed to sustained overvoltages caused by say, lost-neutral events, as in the way home distribution is done in the USA.

Its used by a wider audience and models are introduced very often, you can make a business, or at least an endless series of review videos, checking them.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/suggestions/surge-protectors-scams-and-saints/msg3891/#msg3891 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/suggestions/surge-protectors-scams-and-saints/msg3891/#msg3891)


Great job Joe!!

Now that I know the top meter, I wouldn't mind getting the Fluke 101, and see how much higher it can go. Now, I wouldn't have to buy 10 meters like you did, I could get just the one.  It would be interesting to see how far beyond 6kV it could go, since I could take it all the way to 12kV.

Too bad none of the companies you contacted got back to you. Since Fluke was the winner, it would have been nice for them to send you something else. Maybe they still will. But, it sucks that no companies even acknowledged you emails.

You should consider selling those boxes. Like you said, they go for 10's of thousands.  You could make a killing selling yours to people who can't afford the big ones.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: dom0 on June 29, 2015, 08:30:30 am
Niiiicee!
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: patw4pbj on June 29, 2015, 01:49:51 pm
Fun and educational thread.  Thanks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 30, 2015, 09:22:08 am
Thanks for all of the kind words.

A few things I would like to add.   There has been some debate about if a meter would need to be functional after surge testing or not.  I have heard from some manufactures who say they do not.   I have no idea and would have to ask.  However, I did find this series of videos on-line that Fluke put out.

http://download.fluke.com/video-safety/flukesafetyvideo.html (http://download.fluke.com/video-safety/flukesafetyvideo.html)

Watch the video "Meter Testing".   It will talk about the surge testing.   I typed in what I believe was stated in the video:   

“A special test machine is used to generate the over voltage transient and fault current as defined by national and international standards.  This meter is marked 1000 volts CAT III on the front of the case.  More importantly it has been certified by an independent testing laboratory.   A 1000 volt category three tester is require to survive a minimum of ten transients of both positive and negative 8000 volts without being damaged or creating a hazard.  Fluke goes a step further in designing and building our test tools for your safety.   With stout input protection and high energy fuses, our meters are built to survive.

As a short test we have programmed our test machine to increase the transient voltage in steps until the meter fails. 6000 volts, 9000 volts, 12,000 volts, 15,000 volts, 17,000 volts ……”   
 

Now I guess there is still room for interpretation but it seems pretty clear to me what Fluke requires.    Again, I am not testing to these standards and don't really care what is required.

As I mentioned in the last video, I spent some time looking at the UT90A after it was damaged.    Below are pictures showing the damage. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 30, 2015, 09:27:09 am
I also looked at the AMPROBE AM-510.   Only one transistor had failed.   I looked through the carnage of meters and the M7 1000V diodes and H1A transistors were on other meters.   I pulled and tested them and rebuilt the two meters (no point using new parts).   These two meters now work very well.   



Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 30, 2015, 09:51:43 am
The circuit boards were removed and sent to be recycled.   Here is all that remains.     

I have continued to attempt to contact both Fluke and Keysight to see if they will warranty their meters during the testing.  Finding just an email address has proven to be a problem.   Keysight seems to just want my info (some automated BS thing) and while Fluke has now responded, I have yet to get an answer.   For now, the next phase of testing is on hold.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on June 30, 2015, 09:58:01 am
Quite the carnage ;D

Good job on the repaired ones.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 30, 2015, 10:47:22 am
Quite the carnage ;D

Good job on the repaired ones.


These were the only ones left that the control IC was not damaged.   Had I not fried them with the neon sign transformer, shot at them with arrows, used Dave's Dremel technique to attempt to repair them and rezapping them over and over again with my generator,  more could have been saved.     But really, which would have been more pointless?  :-DD

It was easy to align them both.  The AMPROBE has 4 pots.  It has a separate one for DC volts, AC volts, current and capacitance. 

Someone had asked on youtube what source was used.  The last test was with 2 ohms as well.   

The Fluke 101 and transient generator will remain untouched until the next test.     
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on June 30, 2015, 11:46:13 am
Had I not fried them with the neon sign transformer, shot at them with arrows, used Dave's Dremel technique to attempt to repair them and rezapping them over and over again with my generator,  more could have been saved. 

Yeah, it looked like the Klein just needed a new PTC, but the case was so trashed, what's the point?

The Fluke 101 and transient generator will remain untouched until the next test.

What's the next test?  You taking the generator up to 8kV??  Or, are some of these companies giving you higher end meters to test??
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 30, 2015, 01:16:55 pm

Yeah, it looked like the Klein just needed a new PTC, but the case was so trashed, what's the point?

What's the next test?  You taking the generator up to 8kV??  Or, are some of these companies giving you higher end meters to test??

The Klein case was fused.   The PTC and resistor were fine on it (for low voltage).   When it arc'ed over, something further down the chain was damaged.   I may have attempted repairs if it were designed to be serviced rather than disposable.   

As far as the next test, it's still the same.   If you watched that last video I mentioned, we may be looking at 16 - 17KV to get the job done.    :-DD     You mentioned you may purchase a 101 to run on your system at work.   If you do, post the results. 

To be clear, I am not looking for the companies to give me anything except to warranty the higher end meter it if it fails first.  Seems pretty trivial.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 05:36:23 pm
Thanks for all of the kind words.

You've put in a lot of work and generated some useful data for the world.

A few things I would like to add.   There has been some debate about if a meter would need to be functional after surge testing or not.  I have heard from some manufactures who say they do not.   I have no idea and would have to ask.  However, I did find this series of videos on-line that Fluke put out.

I don't think the standard requires it.

Quote from: fluke
“Fluke goes a step further in designing and building our test tools for your safety.   With stout input protection and high energy fuses, our meters are built to survive.”   
 
Now I guess there is still room for interpretation but it seems pretty clear to me what Fluke requires.
The conclusion (yet again) is that Fluke hold themselves to a higher standard than what's required to get the official rubber stamp of approval.

Now.... if only their fuses weren't so expensive to replace and they could figure out how to make meters that start up in DC mode instead of AC. Then they'd be perfect.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on June 30, 2015, 10:02:59 pm
Quote from: fluke
“Fluke goes a step further in designing and building our test tools for your safety.   With stout input protection and high energy fuses, our meters are built to survive.”   
 
Now I guess there is still room for interpretation but it seems pretty clear to me what Fluke requires.
The conclusion (yet again) is that Fluke hold themselves to a higher standard than what's required to get the official rubber stamp of approval.

Now.... if only their fuses weren't so expensive to replace and they could figure out how to make meters that start up in DC mode instead of AC. Then they'd be perfect.




Quote
A 1000 volt category three tester is require to survive a minimum of ten transients of both positive and negative 8000 volts without being damaged or creating a hazard.
  Then they go on to say "..Fluke goes a step further ..."   Followed by a demonstration of the meter  running up to 17KV before failure.    So yes,  I agree with your comment that Fluke does hold themselves to a higher standard as 17KV is much higher than the 8KV required for the CAT III 1000V meter being shown.    Their words, not mine. 
 :-//   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on June 30, 2015, 10:22:29 pm
Seems quite clear to me, Fluke are very prepared to stand by their reputation, no need for company name changes and the like.  :-+
Something like "We are Fluke, we make good stuff, beat us if you can".  :popcorn:

Not that I've had lots to do with Fluke, I've sold a number of 15B's, got an extra one for personal use and been rapped with it. That's about a $70 unit and all I need for a HH DMM.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 10:49:36 pm
I've sold a number of 15B's, got an extra one for personal use and been rapped with it.
Somebody rapped you with a Fluke? Knuckles or head? Either way it sounds nasty.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 10:51:32 pm
So yes,  I agree with your comment that Fluke does hold themselves to a higher standard as 17KV is much higher than the 8KV required for the CAT III 1000V meter being shown.
17KV is much higher than the 12KV required for CAT IV 100V rating.

(And I'm sure most other manufacturers would have gone with the higher rating...)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 01, 2015, 02:58:38 am
So yes,  I agree with your comment that Fluke does hold themselves to a higher standard as 17KV is much higher than the 8KV required for the CAT III 1000V meter being shown.
17KV is much higher than the 12KV required for CAT IV 100V rating.

(And I'm sure most other manufacturers would have gone with the higher rating...)

I assume you meant CAT IV 1000.  Note that the meter in the video is not CAT IV 1000.   It is CAT III 1000/ CAT IV 600, both require 8KV 2ohm 8/20 which is what they state.    Are you looking at a different video perhaps?

I have asked Fluke about the video I linked.  We will see if they get back with to me with an answer.   

Started to look at the specs for the Keysight and Fluke meters in detail and downloaded the manuals.    I had no idea the 28II did not support AC+DC RMS.   The 287/9 are not CAT III rated.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: retiredcaps on July 01, 2015, 06:30:54 am
The 287/9 are not CAT III rated.
???

A picture from the manual shows it 1000V CAT III rated.  Or am I misinterpreting your statement?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 01, 2015, 09:23:31 am
The 287/9 are not CAT III rated.
???

A picture from the manual shows it 1000V CAT III rated.  Or am I misinterpreting your statement?

Good catch!

 :-//  I had gone to Amazon to get a price and the first one that came up was:
Quote
http://www.amazon.com/Fluke-287-Electronics-Multimeter-TrendCapture/dp/B0015PMU8E

and saw
Quote
Specifications include European Conformity (CE) marking, UL, CSA, IEC safety standard 61010 and is certified for Category I installations up to 1000V and Category II installations up to 300V

This appears to be a much better meter for my needs.   I'll get the manual for it.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 01, 2015, 01:06:09 pm
Just keep in mind Fluke 287/9 series have that annoying leaky super cap problem. Don't know if it's been resolved yet.

If you're thinking of getting an upper tier Fluke meter, for day to day use, you might like the 87V better due to a streamlined interface and good battery life or since you work with high voltages a lot, 28/II is practically the same meter (feature wise) but in a super rugged case (that's not to say that 87V isn't industrial).

87V and 28/II are in my opinion the two best hand held meters Fluke make. I enjoy the 87V form factor better since it's smaller. But 28/II is a tank and it uses AA batteries.

287/9s have more features but in my opinion it takes away from the ergonomics and the battery life a go to meter should have. Data logging and higher resolution can be nice though.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 01, 2015, 01:58:24 pm
I like the 28II and 87V, if they would just measure AC+DC RMS.   

Watched a few reviews of the 287 and that battery life is killer.   I don't care for the slow boot times or the display.   Seems they just don't quite have what I want.   

The Keysight may be a better fit but I did not care for the UI on it.   Let me keep looking.   

Maybe the 87IV was not popular.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: retiredcaps on July 01, 2015, 03:37:30 pm
But 28/II is a tank and it uses AAA batteries.
The 27 II and 28 II both use three AA cells for approximately 800 hours.  Eneloops work fine in them.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: retiredcaps on July 01, 2015, 03:42:28 pm
Maybe the 87IV was not popular.
The battery life of the 87IV/89IV/187/189 is only 72 hours with 4 AA.  I have a 187 and use Eneloops with it.  So battery life isn't an issue as I always have Eneloops charged and ready to go.

PS. The 87IV/89IV/187/189 is discontinued so the only way to buy it is used and obviously you won't get any warranty from Fluke should you try your experiments on it.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 01, 2015, 08:29:29 pm
But 28/II is a tank and it uses AAA batteries.
The 27 II and 28 II both use three AA cells for approximately 800 hours.  Eneloops work fine in them.
Duh I just replaced them last week and you'd think I'd remember. Thanks for the correction(s).
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on July 01, 2015, 11:09:09 pm
17KV is much higher than the 12KV required for CAT IV 100V rating.
(I'm sure most other manufacturers would have gone with the higher rating...)
I assume you meant CAT IV 1000.
Yes.  :-[

Note that the meter in the video is not CAT IV 1000.
I know, but if they test them to 17000V then they could easily label it "CAT IV 1000V". For some reason they don't (maybe that would need better probes or something and push the price up, or maybe they just like to leave a safety margin on their ratings).


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 02, 2015, 05:12:09 am
I know, but if they test them to 17000V then they could easily label it "CAT IV 1000V". For some reason they don't (maybe that would need better probes or something and push the price up, or maybe they just like to leave a safety margin on their ratings).

Labeling a meter CAT IV 1000V isn't "just" about meeting the 12kV surge requirements.  Having that rating means much harder creepage and clearance requirements too.  Maybe they meet the surge, but not the clearance, and that is good enough for them, so they are happy with the CAT IV 600V rating.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 02, 2015, 03:47:26 pm
I had read https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/cat-ratings-and-interpretation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/cat-ratings-and-interpretation/).  Dated but I believe there is still no clear answer.   I contacted two different handheld meter manufactures to get their take and was given two different answers.      If the companies themselves are not clear on the requirements, I doubt any of us are going to arrive at the same conclusion.   The companies who take that stance that their meters must remain functional are most likely going to produce a more robust product.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 02, 2015, 05:31:23 pm
Cranked up the generator to 6.5KV 40uS into an open using the 2 ohm source.   The waveform is attached.  This is about 700 volts over what I had the two final meters at.   I then repeated the test using the Fluke 101 all modes, both +/-.   Once again, the Fluke remains fully functional.     The more I beat it up, the more impressed I am.

This really is the limit of the generator.   There is no room inside to add more storage and pushing it harder is just going to damage it.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 03, 2015, 12:02:34 am
Cranked up the generator to 6.5KV 40uS into an open using the 2 ohm source.   The waveform is attached.  This is about 700 volts over what I had the two final meters at.   I then repeated the test using the Fluke 101 all modes, both +/-.   Once again, the Fluke remains fully functional.     The more I beat it up, the more impressed I am.

This really is the limit of the generator.   There is no room inside to add more storage and pushing it harder is just going to damage it.

What voltage are the caps in your bank rated for?  Couldn't you charge them with the output of that neon sign transformer that you used for your Jacob's ladder?  That way, you would need to get your internal DC converter to put out a higher voltage.  You would just need to limit what level you charged the caps to.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 03, 2015, 01:31:00 am
Cranked up the generator to 6.5KV 40uS into an open using the 2 ohm source.   The waveform is attached.  This is about 700 volts over what I had the two final meters at.   I then repeated the test using the Fluke 101 all modes, both +/-.   Once again, the Fluke remains fully functional.     The more I beat it up, the more impressed I am.

This really is the limit of the generator.   There is no room inside to add more storage and pushing it harder is just going to damage it.

What voltage are the caps in your bank rated for?  Couldn't you charge them with the output of that neon sign transformer that you used for your Jacob's ladder?  That way, you would need to get your internal DC converter to put out a higher voltage.  You would just need to limit what level you charged the caps to.

The caps (storage) are the limiting factor.   Are you going to run the 101 on your 12KV setup?   

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 03, 2015, 04:25:49 am
The caps (storage) are the limiting factor.   Are you going to run the 101 on your 12KV setup?

The 101 is due today..........
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 03, 2015, 05:10:14 am
 :-+  :-+ 


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 03, 2015, 09:37:34 am
The 101 arrived, and I tested it after I got off work. 

The unit survived the full 12kV!!  I hit it 3 times, each polarity, on all switch settings. Everything was fully functional, as I tested every single position.

I actually started at a lower level, an not right a 12kV.  I hit it 3 pulses of each polarity at 6, 8, 10, and then 12kV.  After the Fluke passed all of that, I blew up another $5 Harbor Freight meter, just to prove to myself everything was working.

I recorded the testing, but there is no point in posting it, as NOTHING happened.

I also took a short video of the inside of the surge generator, so everyone can see it's construction. I'll post a link as soon as it finishes uploading.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 03, 2015, 09:45:29 am
Here is a quick video of the inside of the surge generator. I'm assuming that people following this thread would be interested in it's construction.

I just stuck the GoPro camera in, and moved it around to show the capacitor banks, transformer, control panel, and massive contactor.

http://youtu.be/bifNjReS_Yw (http://youtu.be/bifNjReS_Yw)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 03, 2015, 09:57:48 am
Nice construction. Looks roomy.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 03, 2015, 11:08:38 am
The 101 arrived, and I tested it after I got off work. 

The unit survived the full 12kV!!  I hit it 3 times, each polarity, on all switch settings. Everything was fully functional, as I tested every single position.

I actually started at a lower level, an not right a 12kV.  I hit it 3 pulses of each polarity at 6, 8, 10, and then 12kV.  After the Fluke passed all of that, I blew up another $5 Harbor Freight meter, just to prove to myself everything was working.

I recorded the testing, but there is no point in posting it, as NOTHING happened.

I also took a short video of the inside of the surge generator, so everyone can see it's construction. I'll post a link as soon as it finishes uploading.

 :-DD :-DD I was afraid of that!   Fungus called this one!

So we are all clear, I have a few questions.

Are you using the 1.2/50 8/20 surge, 2 ohm source?
Was there any sort of bias on the meter when you hit it with the transients?   
Did you verify the waveform?   

And of course, what's it going to take to damage one of these!!??   It's a cheap $50 meter, how hard can it be?? 




Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 03, 2015, 11:40:25 am
That's pretty incredible 12KV!!

You know when Dave Taylor did the AmpHour interview about the history of Fluke. He mentioned how Fluke invested millions in just their PCB washing process. I thought it was a great anecdote on how seriously they take safety and quality.

It's good to see that even their Chinese made 101s are continuing that tradition. I am definitely impressed. Thank you for great tests Joe and Meter Junkie!

Here is the link to the AmpHour episode in question: http://www.theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/ (http://www.theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 03, 2015, 11:44:34 am
:-DD :-DD I was afraid of that!   Fungus called this one!

So we are all clear, I have a few questions.

Are you using the 1.2/50 8/20 surge, 2 ohm source?
Was there any sort of bias on the meter when you hit it with the transients?   
Did you verify the waveform?   

And of course, what's it going to take to damage one of these!!??   It's a cheap $50 meter, how hard can it be??

Yes, it was a 1.2/50   8/20 surge.  That is the only wave this machine does, as it was designed exclusivley to test 61010-1.  And yes, I was using the 2 ohm output, not the 12.  I was also only using about 4 inch leads into the meter, instead of the full length of the leads, to lower the resistance as much as possible.

No bias. I am looking into a CDN, but do not have one yet.  I doubt a bias would have done anything, as there was no arcing at all during the surge testing. Yes, it would add continuous energy after an arc started, but I don't believe there was any arcing.

I did not verify the waveform.  I do not have a high voltage probe for my scope. But, this machine is calibrated, and the waveforms verified during calibration.

It looks like Fluke may be true to it's claim that these meters will survive upwards of 17kV.  I'm going to open the Fluke, and see what MOV's they are using, and what type of capacity they have. Maybe they can clamp these levels.  It looks like someone my need to build a 20kV generator, or increase the length of the pulse to kill these with a surge.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 03, 2015, 12:38:15 pm
:-DD :-DD I was afraid of that!   Fungus called this one!

So we are all clear, I have a few questions.

Are you using the 1.2/50 8/20 surge, 2 ohm source?
Was there any sort of bias on the meter when you hit it with the transients?   
Did you verify the waveform?   

And of course, what's it going to take to damage one of these!!??   It's a cheap $50 meter, how hard can it be??

Yes, it was a 1.2/50   8/20 surge.  That is the only wave this machine does, as it was designed exclusivley to test 61010-1.

No bias. I am looking into a CDN, but do not have one yet.  I doubt a bias would have done anything, as there was no arcing at all during the surge testing. Yes, it would add continuous energy after an arc started, but I don't believe there was any arcing.

I did not verify the waveform.  I do not have a high voltage probe for my scope. But, this machine is calibrated, and the waveforms verified during calibration.

It looks like Fluke may be true to it's claim that these meters will survive upwards of 17kV.  I'm going to open the Fluke, and see what MOV's they are using, and what type of capacity they have. Maybe they can clamp these levels.  It looks like someone my need to build a 20kV generator, or increase the length of the pulse to kill these with a surge.

Good enough on the waveform.    What sort of rep rate were you hitting it at?   

I had asked Fluke about how the 101 stacked up against the 28II.  They responded with "The Fluke 28II is more robust than the Fluke 101 (which is only sold in Asia) and has a limited lifetime warranty."     Also, I asked them if they would release the test data for the 101.  They would not.   

I just finished up the generator.   Second box now contains the storage only.  They are bolted together as I don't think I want 10KV wires dangling around.    :-DD   Supply, trigger and network are on top.     We will see if that 101 can handle this.      Note the decay and amplitude now.   

If it lives through this, I think I need to throw in the towel and just admit, I am not tougher than my $50 Fluke!   :-DD

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Vgkid on July 03, 2015, 12:40:04 pm
I can't wait for a test video.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 03, 2015, 12:53:35 pm
What sort of rep rate were you hitting it at?   

I was hitting it as fast as the generator would charge, which was about 15 to 20 seconds to get to the full 12kV.  I went similar to what you were doing......started at AC voltage on the left of the dial, hit with 3 positive pulses, moved the dial to the right.  Hit all the modes on combo positions (ohms, continuity, diode). When I got to the end, I reversed the polarity, and went back right to left.

The video of me hitting the 12kV was a total of 12 minutes long, with all the pulses as described above.  If I have time this weekend, I will move it off the GoPro camera, speed it up so it's not 12 minutes, and post it.  It just seems like a waste, because it is just me changing dial positions, and hitting the discharge button.  No good blast to see, or hear.

Good luck with your 10kV testing (looks closer to 12kV on that waveform).   Based on my testing, you will be quite bored.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 03, 2015, 01:52:18 pm
i just logged into work to look at the documentation for our generator.  We store everything on our servers.  When the unit shipped to us, they provided waveforms of the unit from their test lab. Attached is the 12KV waveform.  The decay on this is much larger than your waveform. The measurement must not be from peak, but from one percentage to another.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 03, 2015, 02:04:05 pm
here are shots of where they set their markers to determine rise and fall.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 03, 2015, 02:16:03 pm
The video of me hitting the 12kV was a total of 12 minutes long, with all the pulses as described above.  If I have time this weekend, I will move it off the GoPro camera, speed it up so it's not 12 minutes, and post it.  It just seems like a waste, because it is just me changing dial positions, and hitting the discharge button.  No good blast to see, or hear.

Good luck with your 10kV testing (looks closer to 12kV on that waveform).   Based on my testing, you will be quite bored.

Yes,  its a full out 12KV.   Should have wrote thousands of volts dangling around.    Most of those tests I ran were VERY boring.   On the plus side I did explode a CC resistor and took out a 120V light bulb.    The first transients I had would take out a very tiny bulb.  The later ones could damage the larger automotive bulbs.   Good to see it finally be able to take out a 120 V one!    :-DD     

Looking at your waveform, you are already beyond what I have now.   I'll run it anyway.   At least then we have two meters that have been tested roughly the same.

Guessing that was a custom unit for Fluke.   Even using salvaged parts, building one in the 20KV range is going to cost more than the Fluke 28II.   I think if this 101 lives, I will just admit, Fluke really is the king of meters!   :-DD     Well that is unless someone wants to send us a couple of other brands to run through this test to prove it otherwise.   I don't think you will find a whole lot of even more expensive ones that are going to take this sort of abuse!     
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 03, 2015, 02:22:28 pm
I think we are close on Tr.   I may be able to get a little more out of it.   Been too long of a day to do anything now.    :=\        I'll start with what I have, if that lives, Ill see how far I can push it with the new setup.   

Where is Fluke going to ever find free marketing like this!!  :-DD   Especially coming from someone who admittedly has not been one of their fans.     

So let me get some rest and then I will take one last crack at it!   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 04, 2015, 12:20:20 am
Joe,

I looked back at that document you posted on page 2 of this thread.  It was from Advanced Energy on building and testing surge generators.  That document shows the pulse length markers from the 50% amplitude on the rise, to 50% on the fall.  It matches the waveform from my generator dead on.

If you look at your latest waveform compared to that document, your decay pulse is more like 20 uSec, instead of the 50 you want. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 04, 2015, 01:46:25 am
Here is the video of me surging the Fluke at 12kV.  Boring as hell.  I left it normal speed at the beginning and end, so you can see the charge times, and here the contactor relay firing.  5x speed the for the rest of it.

It is not as clear as Joe's video, as I was trying to keep both the generator and meter in the picture, and still have some safety separation.  You can see the display change, and sometimes show O.L. after the hits, but that would clear on the next hit, or selector switch change.  I verified it was 100% functional after the hits.

http://youtu.be/4hk5Vmf65-4 (http://youtu.be/4hk5Vmf65-4)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 04, 2015, 01:58:49 am
Guessing that was a custom unit for Fluke.     

Found what looks to be that model on-line.  The specs say it can go to 33 kV, and deliver 30 kA.  I don't even want to know what a machine like that costs.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 04, 2015, 02:32:28 am
Joe,

I looked back at that document you posted on page 2 of this thread.  It was from Advanced Energy on building and testing surge generators.  That document shows the pulse length markers from the 50% amplitude on the rise, to 50% on the fall.  It matches the waveform from my generator dead on.

If you look at your latest waveform compared to that document, your decay pulse is more like 20 uSec, instead of the 50 you want.

They use FWHH to measure peak shape.   I am using the 100/0 which I thought was very clear from all of the scope shots.  But then I have made statements about how it compares with 61010 so I can see how I clouded things up.   

Still it's not a big deal.  I'm starting to sound a bit like a broken record but again, I was not too concerned about what I hit the meters with, as long as they were all tested the same.  Again, I am not trying to certify the meters for CAT III. 


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 04, 2015, 06:55:24 am
 :scared:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 04, 2015, 07:16:43 am
They use FWHH to measure peak shape.   I am using the 100/0 which I thought was very clear from all of the scope shots.  But then I have made statements about how it compares with 61010 so I can see how I clouded things up.   

Still it's not a big deal.  I'm starting to sound a bit like a broken record but again, I was not too concerned about what I hit the meters with, as long as they were all tested the same.  Again, I am not trying to certify the meters for CAT III.

I get that this was about comparing all the meters equally, and just seeing which was the toughest, and who ended up on top. I also get that your intent was never to "certify" that any of these meters actually meet IEC standards.

As for the waveform, I got by your earlier posts that the time you were talking about was based off of 100/0.  I had never bother to check how the standard measured them, and really did not care that much. I had assumed that you were trying to match that, because you referred to it so often.  So, I really paid no attention to your pulses until you asked me for the waveform of my generator.  When I did look up those pulses, that is when I noticed that mine were a lot different than yours, and even wondered if my machine was off. That is why I went back to that standard you had posted earlier, and realized that mine were right on, and yours were a little off from the standard.  I was not trying to get you to make yours perfect, I was just pointing out that I finally noticed the difference.

But, looking at your latest picture, you have REALLY stepped up your pulse width.  With your first 12 kV pulse you posted earlier, I was thinking I know you won't damage the Fluke, because that was less energy than I was giving it. But, with this latest pulse, it looks like you might be able to do some damage.  Imagine putting that pulse on some of those Mastech meters that you took out with 2kV, and the narrower pulse??

Have you bothered to check what your short circuit current waveform is yet?  Just wondering how close you are on that?

I'm really impressed with what you built, and how fast you did it.  You have built quite a fun experiment, and it got me interested enough in all this to actually do testing on it myself.  Thanks for sparking my interest enough to get me involved in all this.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 04, 2015, 07:46:15 am
THANK YOU!!  You stepped up, bought your own Fluke 101 and ran the test!  This saved me a lot of time knowing how hard I would have to push things.

It makes more sense to just use FWHH anyway. 

Yea, I stepped things up after you said you could not damage it.   The little toy generator is not so much a toy anymore.  Wearing gloves now and working one handed.  Today is really my last ditched effort to damage the Fluke 101.     

Would really like to see some other brands run on it.  Not low cost ones like I tested but ones that people just assume are good because they cost so much.    Not thinking there are too many that would want to play this game.   For those meters, it may be best to just stay with the drop and bucket tests.   :-DD 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 04, 2015, 08:01:17 am
Guessing that was a custom unit for Fluke.     

Found what looks to be that model on-line.  The specs say it can go to 33 kV, and deliver 30 kA.  I don't even want to know what a machine like that costs.

So I could just order two of them?   :-DD

I think the 30A 8KV system we looked at last was around $80.   The 16A 2-phase 8KV system I am looking at now is around $30.   For non-certified, home project stuff, what I have is fine.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 04, 2015, 08:36:05 am
I think the 30A 8KV system we looked at last was around $80.   The 16A 2-phase 8KV system I am looking at now is around $30.   For non-certified, home project stuff, what I have is fine.

My company paid $34K for our unit.  I could have just bought yours for the price of that 28 you mentioned, and used the rest for a nice vacation.......
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 04, 2015, 10:27:01 am
Would really like to see some other brands run on it.  Not low cost ones like I tested but ones that people just assume are good because they cost so much.    Not thinking there are too many that would want to play this game.   For those meters, it may be best to just stay with the drop and bucket tests.   :-DD

I would really like to send you a Brymen BM829s, but it will cost me $80 to send it, plus the cost of the meter. It would be cheaper for me to build a pulse tester myself. I have around 10,000amps available at 48V with an impedance of around 0.1 ohm or less, and a neon transformer. The two don't work together but I would, like to build something that will do the job. The problem is that here in Chile it is hard to get anything, and loooooon time to get anything into the country.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 04, 2015, 11:36:18 am
Would really like to see some other brands run on it.  Not low cost ones like I tested but ones that people just assume are good because they cost so much.    Not thinking there are too many that would want to play this game.   For those meters, it may be best to just stay with the drop and bucket tests.   :-DD

I would really like to send you a Brymen BM829s, but it will cost me $80 to send it, plus the cost of the meter. It would be cheaper for me to build a pulse tester myself. I have around 10,000amps available at 48V with an impedance of around 0.1 ohm or less, and a neon transformer. The two don't work together but I would, like to build something that will do the job. The problem is that here in Chile it is hard to get anything, and loooooon time to get anything into the country.

I tried to see if it was available through Amazon.  Is it possible there are rebranded versions that you know would be identical?

Please don't let my small test box fool you.   It may seem like I did all this testing so fast that what I have shown is trivial.  There was a lot of time invested, not to mention the cost and dangers involved.    This isn't your little insulation tester.  If you make a mistake, you may end up paying the ultimate price!   There is a reason I have not disclosed any information about how it is built.   I don't want unskilled people to play with this stuff thinking that there is no risks involved! 
 
I would also like to point out that with the lack of standards on how to test them, using the IEC 61010 surge may not be the right way to evaluate them.   Making a tester that is not calibrated to a NIST standard may not give your customers confidence in the data you take.   

I would really like to see more electrical testing in reviews and would like to see something like this but I am just not sure this is the right answer. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 04, 2015, 11:52:49 am
I have around 10,000 amps available at 48V with an impedance of around 0.1 ohm or less, and a neon transformer. The two don't work together but I would, like to build something that will do the job.

48V at 10,000 Amps for what length of time??  Do you just have a large capacitor bank that you are charging, and then discharging.  What do you use that for??
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 04, 2015, 12:07:49 pm
I would really like to send you a Brymen BM829s, but it will cost me $80 to send it, plus the cost of the meter. It would be cheaper for me to build a pulse tester myself. I have around 10,000amps available at 48V with an impedance of around 0.1 ohm or less, and a neon transformer. The two don't work together but I would, like to build something that will do the job. The problem is that here in Chile it is hard to get anything, and loooooon time to get anything into the country.

I tried to see if it was available through Amazon.  Is it possible there are rebranded versions that you know would be identical?

Greenelee has the DM830A:
http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-830A-Digital-Multimeter-1000/dp/B003TO5YUU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435975207&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-830a (http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-830A-Digital-Multimeter-1000/dp/B003TO5YUU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435975207&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-830a)
Which is the BM829 re-branded. The price right now is much higher than the BM829S.

http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-830A-Digital-Multimeter-1000/dp/B003TO5YUU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435975207&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-830a (http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-830A-Digital-Multimeter-1000/dp/B003TO5YUU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435975207&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-830a)

Please don't let my small test box fool you.   It may seem like I did all this testing so fast that what I have shown is trivial.  There was a lot of time invested, not to mention the cost and dangers involved.    This isn't your little insulation tester.  If you make a mistake, you may end up paying the ultimate price!   There is a reason I have not disclosed any information about how it is built.   I don't want unskilled people to play with this stuff thinking that there is no risks involved! 
 
I would also like to point out that with the lack of standards on how to test them, using the IEC 61010 surge may not be the right way to evaluate them.   Making a tester that is not calibrated to a NIST standard may not give your customers confidence in the data you take.   

I would really like to see more electrical testing in reviews and would like to see something like this but I am just not sure this is the right answer.

Believe me, I am very familiar with high voltage with some good current behind it. I was the engineering manager for a scientific equipment company. I designed, helped build, and commissioned equipment that had 10kV 1A DC 100% duty cycle power supplies, 5kW RF power, and both combined. They also had electron beam gun heated crucibles that had 1-5kv bias on 200amp current for the filaments. I also had to build and certify the equipment to CSA special installation requirements.

I understand fully what kind of circuitry you have on those boxes, just not the details.

All a insulation breakdown tester will show is when arc over will occur, but no necessarily damage the item under test.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 04, 2015, 12:16:16 pm
I have around 10,000 amps available at 48V with an impedance of around 0.1 ohm or less, and a neon transformer. The two don't work together but I would, like to build something that will do the job.

48V at 10,000 Amps for what length of time??  Do you just have a large capacitor bank that you are charging, and then discharging.  What do you use that for??

Oh for probably something like 10 seconds. I have a bank of 8x 250Ah AGM batteries wired in 4 serial by 2 parallel. They have a new internal resistance of around 4 milliohm. So actually I would only get around 5000A. I forgot that I had to remove a third string when two batteries went bad.

I do have access to 3 banks of 4x4 of the same batteries, so yes I could easily get 10000A for 10 seconds at least.

They are for solar power storage.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 04, 2015, 02:13:10 pm
Video showing the last couple of days including today running the 101 with that 13KV 100us FWHH 2 ohm setup, 3 hits both +/-.     

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBBdhyzGk00&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBBdhyzGk00&feature=youtu.be)


Quote
Believe me, I am very familiar with high voltage with some good current behind it. I was the engineering manager for a scientific equipment company. I designed, helped build, and commissioned equipment that had 10kV 1A DC 100% duty cycle power supplies, 5kW RF power, and both combined. They also had electron beam gun heated crucibles that had 1-5kv bias on 200amp current for the filaments. I also had to build and certify the equipment to CSA special installation requirements.

I understand fully what kind of circuitry you have on those boxes, just not the details.

This should be a walk in the park for you then.    I look forward to seeing your setup.

Quote
Greenelee has the DM830A:
http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-830A-Digital-Multimeter-1000/dp/B003TO5YUU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435975207&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-830a (http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-830A-Digital-Multimeter-1000/dp/B003TO5YUU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435975207&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-830a)
Which is the BM829 re-branded. The price right now is much higher than the BM829S.

http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-830A-Digital-Multimeter-1000/dp/B003TO5YUU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435975207&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-830a (http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-830A-Digital-Multimeter-1000/dp/B003TO5YUU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435975207&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-830a)

I checked the links.  It's a bit too high priced for me just to run it against the Fluke 101.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 04, 2015, 02:36:54 pm
Quote
Believe me, I am very familiar with high voltage with some good current behind it. I was the engineering manager for a scientific equipment company. I designed, helped build, and commissioned equipment that had 10kV 1A DC 100% duty cycle power supplies, 5kW RF power, and both combined. They also had electron beam gun heated crucibles that had 1-5kv bias on 200amp current for the filaments. I also had to build and certify the equipment to CSA special installation requirements.

I understand fully what kind of circuitry you have on those boxes, just not the details.

This should be a walk in the park for you then.    I look forward to seeing your setup.

I really want to build something with some bite to it, the problem is getting the parts in Chile like I said. I will try, but I have so many other things to do.

Quote
Greenelee has the DM830A:
http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-830A-Digital-Multimeter-1000/dp/B003TO5YUU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435975207&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-830a (http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-830A-Digital-Multimeter-1000/dp/B003TO5YUU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435975207&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-830a)
Which is the BM829 re-branded. The price right now is much higher than the BM829S.

http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-830A-Digital-Multimeter-1000/dp/B003TO5YUU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435975207&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-830a (http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-830A-Digital-Multimeter-1000/dp/B003TO5YUU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435975207&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-830a)

I checked the links.  It's a bit too high priced for me just to run it against the Fluke 101.

Yes I understand not wanting to throw money every which direction.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 04, 2015, 09:12:10 pm
Happy 4th of July!!!!!

It seems like a good day to blow stuff up with a homemade surge generator....
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 05, 2015, 01:32:43 am
So, now that this testing is complete, what's next?

As discussed earlier in this thread, the possibility of most meters ever seeing a surge like this is very slim. It was very fun to see how the meters performed, even though they will seldom have to.

BUT, what is VERY likely to occur very often is users applying voltage to inputs that they should not (resistance, capacitance, amps, etc). The videos you see most often from Fluke and MG are meters catching fire from this mismatch.  2nd Edition of the standard allowed manufacturers to say what the input was protected to (like 240V on resistance, even though the meter can measure to 600V). 3rd Edition now requires the meter can not be a hazard if the full voltage gets put on any input. Since this is WAY more likely to happen, I wonder how many low end meters would survive this?

Do any of you guys have transformers that can deliver 600 to 1000V with some decent current behind it?  My 1000V transformer can only supply 500mA, and that is not enough energy for this testing. Maybe this would be easier to test with DC? Lightages could charge those batteries up to 1000V, and see how long meters could survive that with some decent current behind the voltage?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 05, 2015, 02:52:59 am
Happy 4th of July!!!!!

It seems like a good day to blow stuff up with a homemade surge generator....

 :-+   Happy Independence Day!    As they were importing tea from China, now we import the Fluke 101 from China.  Although I saw a video where someone took it apart and they suspect that at least the board was made in India,  where the tea also came from.   Maybe I'll throw the thing into the harbor and see if that damages it!   :-DD

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 05, 2015, 03:33:09 am
Do any of you guys have transformers that can deliver 600 to 1000V with some decent current behind it?  My 1000V transformer can only supply 500mA, and that is not enough energy for this testing. Maybe this would be easier to test with DC? Lightages could charge those batteries up to 1000V, and see how long meters could survive that with some decent current behind the voltage?

The best I can do right now is high current or high voltage. I can't do both. I do have a big variac and some transformers I can play with along with a neon tranformer. I will see what I can do after I get caught up on some other things. If you don't hear from me again, I probably touched the wrong part of the circuit whilst experimenting. :scared: (don't worry, it won't happen)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 05, 2015, 04:31:17 am
So, now that this testing is complete, what's next?

BUT, what is VERY likely to occur very often is users applying voltage to inputs that they should not (resistance, capacitance, amps, etc). The videos you see most often from Fluke and MG are meters catching fire from this mismatch.  2nd Edition of the standard allowed manufacturers to say what the input was protected to (like 240V on resistance, even though the meter can measure to 600V). 3rd Edition now requires the meter can not be a hazard if the full voltage gets put on any input. Since this is WAY more likely to happen, I wonder how many low end meters would survive this?

I thought this was covered in 4.4.2.101 and 101.   

Dave does a good job checking this on at least on some of the meters he reviews.  He plugs them into the outlet (220) and runs them through their paces.     

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bKvyoZa5J8Q#t=1968
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bKvyoZa5J8Q#t=1968)

If we are talking real world, do you want to go higher than this?    I think I could put something together fairly quickly if you want.   

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 05, 2015, 04:42:46 am
I can apply 1000V to each of the ranges, and even 5000V. It would only be with a few milliamps though. This did damage the UT61E but it does not demonstrate that the meter does not harm the user with these conditions. That would require something more like 1000V at 10 or 15 amps (or more) as would be available on a circuit of that type.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 05, 2015, 07:45:58 am
But is a 1000 or 5000 at several amps very likely?   I can't answer that. 

I took a 1000uF, charged it to 440V, using a large solenoid and some 16AWG test leads I made for this test, spanked the 101 with it while in resistance, diode and continuity.    There are two time constants.  It decays rather rapidly to 240 volts, then just hangs out around there until I cut the power.   

This seems to have no affect on the 101, but I assumed from the 61010 standard, it wouldn't.   Here is a short video recorded at normal speed which provides some idea of the time constant.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_7uIOD_qPA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_7uIOD_qPA)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 05, 2015, 08:54:28 am
But is a 1000 or 5000 at several amps very likely?   I can't answer that. 

No, not very likely, but possible in some power supplies that I have worked on in the past, at least 1000V at 1A and higher. If  meter is rate at CATIII/1000V, then it better handle more than a couple of milliamps at 1000V on all functions and all input jacks. I still do not have the full IEC specifications for the tests, but the parts I do have do not indicate the current availability for this kind of test, at least I am not sure. I have one clause that states:

Quote
16.2 Multifunction meters and similar equipment
Multifunction meters and similar equipment shall not cause a HAZARD in any possible combination
of RATED input voltages, and settings of function and range controls. Possible HAZARDS include
electric shock, fire, arcing and explosion.
Conformity is checked by the following test.The maximum RATED voltage specified for any function is applied to each pair of TERMINALS in
turn, in every combination of function and range controls. The test source connected to the
equipment measuring TERMINALS during this test is limited to 3.6 kVA for measurement category I
or measurement category II. For measurement category III or measurement category IV, the test
circuit has to be capable of delivering 30 kVA.

During and after the tests, no HAZARD shall arise.
Multifunction meters and similar equipment are to be tested by changing the Function/Range Selector to all
possible settings while connected to the maximum rated source.

So based on this, I guess, that a meter rated at 1000V maximum input must be able to not cause harm with a source of 3.6A if CATI or CATII, and 30A if CATIII or CATIV. So an insulation tester capable of a few milliamps will not give you any real indication of the ability of the meter to pass this part of the test. If it fails at a few milliamps, that just mean it failed to operate after. It is very hard to cause harm to the user with a few milliamps contained in the meter housing.

I have another clause from somewhere that states:

Quote
101.4  Functional  integrity
After the voltage of  4.4.2.101  has  been applied to the  METER, the  METER  shall continue to be
able to indicate the presence of HAZARDOUS  LIVE  voltages up to the maximum RATED  voltage.

I do not know what the voltage required in 4.4.2.101 is, so I am shooting in the dark. Like I said before, it is ridiculous that a safety standard for the public, made by public funds, is hidden for payment.

Edit:

I should also say the fee is beyond reasonable. $340 for just the general part? So  much for trying to protect the public. It is just a big cash grab, just like lawyers and accountants.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 05, 2015, 10:45:47 am
I thought this was covered in 4.4.2.101 and 101.   

Dave does a good job checking this on at least on some of the meters he reviews.  He plugs them into the outlet (220) and runs them through their paces.     

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bKvyoZa5J8Q#t=1968
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bKvyoZa5J8Q#t=1968)

If we are talking real world, do you want to go higher than this?    I think I could put something together fairly quickly if you want.   

4.4.2.101 covers just the mains terminal, and it states that the MAINS must handle 1.9 times the rated voltage for the unit up to 900 and something for a 600 V meter, and up to 1100 V for a 1000V rated meter. Then, 101 covers handling the voltage on other inputs that are not expecting that voltage.  But, like I said, this is for 3rd Edition, and companies don't need to be supplying these until 2018.  The majority of the meters out there today are to 2nd Edition, and handling the full voltage is not required.

Yes, I know Dave puts 220 on to some meters he checks, but that is like some of the meters you tested surviving a 2,000V surge, when it could see as high as 6,000.  Look at the specifications for some of those cheap meters that were out early in your testing (I'm sure you still have the manuals laying around).. I would bet that if you look at the overload protection on some of those functions they are around 250V.  So, these could probably (if they really meet that spec) pass 250V, but could turn to a fire bomb at 480V, or the 600V the meter is rated for.

Now, would I use a $50 Mastech meter when measuring 480 or 600??  Heck NO!!   But, there are users that would, and they may not be safe if they had the meter set wrong.

As for the currents that could be available real world, you know that any AC line you are on could deliver greater than 30 Amps if presented by a dead short in the meter, after something fails due to the over voltage. Finding a DC system with that current behind it would be much harder, and would be something like a third rail on a train.  I wasn't saying that finding a DC high voltage application with current behind it would be common. I was saying it would be easier to have a DC test jig.

For us to get access to 600V with 30A of current behind it would be unlikely (and extremely dangerous). Even if we had a 240 to 600 step up transformer, you would need 80 Amps on the primary to get that current for testing.  With DC for testing, we could use batteries, or charge big enough caps to keep that power sustained for a while. For small caps they would create more of a "surge" that the front end could handle for a few milliseconds.  But, would they blow with more power behind it for a while??

I'm assuming they would, but I don't have access to AC with that power.  I've looked a caps to charge, but a 1300V 480uF cap runs around $200 (with my quick search), and you would need a lot of those to sustain this for a while. 

This seems harder to test, but a more likely failure that can happen.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 05, 2015, 10:51:04 am
I can apply 1000V to each of the ranges, and even 5000V. It would only be with a few milliamps though. This did damage the UT61E but it does not demonstrate that the meter does not harm the user with these conditions. That would require something more like 1000V at 10 or 15 amps (or more) as would be available on a circuit of that type.

Yeah, milliamps (like your Megger) won't show how bad a meter would be damaged.  I can get to 3000V with 500mA behind it, but I'm not sure even that would give enough power to wipe out meters like Fluke does to the Harbor Freight meters in all their videos.  Maybe I should just pick another one up to see. The last 2 I bought had the voltage jack fused, so maybe they changed the design.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 05, 2015, 12:18:15 pm
Quote
I should also say the fee is beyond reasonable. $340 for just the general part? So  much for trying to protect the public. It is just a big cash grab, just like lawyers and accountants.
:-+

Quote
4.4.2.101 covers just the mains terminal
101 refers to 4.4.2.101.   Mismatch of leads is covered in 101.3. 

Quote
16.2 Multifunction meters and similar equipment
I would think this would be the limit of 4.4.2.101 as well but I am not sure. 

Again, I can see how come I get different answers from the companies who make the meters.  Someone at TUV needs to write the the IEC61010 guide for dummies!    I would buy it!  But I bet all we would see inside is how it is up to the companies themselves to determine the risks.

Quote
Yes, I know Dave puts 220 on to some meters he checks, but that is like some of the meters you tested surviving a 2,000V surge, when it could see as high as 6,000.

Sorry but I am not getting your point.   These are two separate tests.  Two separate goals.   Again, my goal was to determine which meters were more robust than others.  I did this by increasing the energy supplied to all the meters and seeing at what point they failed.  Again, this has nothing to do with safety or meeting the IEC standards.     What Dave is doing (IMO) is more real world common testing.  I have done just what he is testing to countless times.     

You like using that four letter word "safe" but if the goal is to determine something about safety, I can't help.   That's best to leave with the TUVs, CASs and ULs of the world! 

Quote
I can get to 3000V with 500mA behind it,

Is 3000V at 500mA a common thing people measure with their handhelds?   If your goal is only to damage them, I can pop the back covers off and I'll hang it on that neon sign transformer.   Seems I have seen that sort of thing happen before!   :-DD :-DD

If the goal is just to see if meters can survive common faults, I think we need to define what that is.   We could turn to IEC, but all they have is "REASONABLY FORESEEABLE MISUSE".    :-DD

If you can think of a test that is something that you feel is a common problem for the average handheld user, post about it.   

My first Fluke died twice.  Once from me measuring a HV supply that was near what the meter was rated for and I assumed it could handle it.   That was the first $70.    Later the meter was hit with a little back EMF and again died.   The HPs I now have have never failed.   I bought them both new.  The oldest must be more than 20 years old now.      The last two handhelds you saw.  The LCD was cracked after I dropped the one.  The other HF one had a mechanical failure with the LCD.   Then there's the BK that I think the switch just wore out on.   I really have not seen a lot of failures during my life.   I did see a guy hook a thermocouple input to the AC mains once that damaged a meter but even that is the only thing that comes to mind.   

I can see things like someone wanting to check their car ignition system and hooking it to the output of one of the coils.  For that matter, even on the primary side.    Or hooking it across something like a large starter solenoid or a fuel shut off valve with no flyback protection.     As mentioned earlier, many transients don't come from the line.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 05, 2015, 01:47:31 pm
Sorry but I am not getting your point.   These are two separate tests.  Two separate goals.   Again, my goal was to determine which meters were more robust than others.  I did this by increasing the energy supplied to all the meters and seeing at what point they failed.  Again, this has nothing to do with safety or meeting the IEC standards.     What Dave is doing (IMO) is more real world common testing.  I have done just what he is testing to countless times. 

My point was that it would be pretty easy to protect the resistance input from 50V, or 220V, but not so easy to protect it from 1000V.  Just like it may be easy to protect the meters you tested from 2000V through 50 ohms, but not so easy from 13kV through 2 ohms. You wanted to see how much abuse they could take from surges, and I'm wondering how well they would hold up from a mis-match.

 
Quote
Is 3000V at 500mA a common thing people measure with their handhelds?   If your goal is only to damage them, I can pop the back covers off and I'll hang it on that neon sign transformer.   Seems I have seen that sort of thing happen before!   :-DD :-DD

If the goal is just to see if meters can survive common faults, I think we need to define what that is.   We could turn to IEC, but all they have is "REASONABLY FORESEEABLE MISUSE".    :-DD

If you can think of a test that is something that you feel is a common problem for the average handheld user, post about it.
 

I wasn't saying a meter commonly sees 3000V at 500mA. I'm not just trying to damage meters. I could come up with many ways to damage meters is that is what I was looking for.  I was saying that is all I have to work with, and that won't let me test these the way I would like.  I would like to see how they can handle 480V, 600V, or 1000V, on any input.  With that supply I was mentioning, I could give them the voltage, but the limited current would not simulate what would really happen if someone put a meter across 480V that had the potential to supply 30 Amps.  I've seen a dozen low end ($5 Harbor Freight) meters blown up on videos with that fault. I'm curious how $50 or $100 meters would do. I also know spikes can come from many sources other than a lightning strike. But, I'm also pretty sure there are a lot more meters plugged into high voltage on continuity or Amps, than seeing spikes.

Again, I'm not saying that you were testing these meters to meet IEC for spikes, and I want to test them to meet IEC for voltage on a jack that shouldn't be there.  I'm just curious what meters could handle that, and which couldn't. But, I don't have a way to test it, and I was hoping others did.  If not, and I want to see it, I'll have to look at building it myself (when I have the time, money, and enough desire).
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 05, 2015, 02:04:32 pm

Quote
4.4.2.101 covers just the mains terminal
101 refers to 4.4.2.101.   Mismatch of leads is covered in 101.3. 

Attached is 4.4.2.101 which covers the Voltage levels to the MAINS.  Yes, I know mismatch was specific to 101.3.  I was just saying that was in section 101, and not saying the specific section.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 06, 2015, 02:03:08 am
To be clear then,  you would like to test them to the 4.4.2.101?   

If you just want to see how the meters hold up electrically,  you may not need the full 30A.   I have an 600Vish 350W supply sitting here from an old radio.   I could see someone who is attempting to work on old systems like this, hooking their meter to it.   It has not been turned on in many years.  Let me blow the dust off and see how the 101 likes it. 

Almost forgot, that will be 60Hz AC average voltage.   

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 06, 2015, 08:01:44 am
To be clear then,  you would like to test them to the 4.4.2.101?   

To be clear, I don't want them tested to ANY standard.  You, more than anybody, should get what I'm saying.

When you started this whole thread, you wanted to determine how "robust" under $50 meters were.  To determine this you decided to see how well they could handle high voltage surges.  You referenced the surges required to meet CAT ratings, and built a generator loosely based off this standard.  You were not testing that they met the IEC standards, or trying to prove if any did not meet standards, you just wanted to see which meters held up to these surges the best, and that would determine which was more robust.

I also would like to see how robust meters are, but with another type of test.  Instead of how robust they are in surges, I would like to see how robust they are in handling a voltage on a position that is not expecting a voltage (like resistance, or capacitance).  I don't want to test them to a standard, but section 101.3 of 61010-2-033  (attached at the end) would serve as a decent test to base the testing off of. This section talks of putting the highest voltage the meter can test on the mains, on putting that on every jack, and every switch position.  It does not require the meter to survive, just not become a hazard.  So, for a robustness test, it would be interesting to see which meters can survive the highest voltages on these various switch positions. None of the meters should go much beyond the voltage they measure to.  I would expect that the PTC's and MOV's are set to clamp just above that level.  Once you get above that, it is just a matter of how long before those protection devices can't handle that voltage. I'm not trying to prove if any meter meet the attached standard, I'm just curious which ones could survive the longest.  I'm also not interested in testing this for the current jacks, just the functions that would work off the same jack as the voltage, but in the wrong switch position.

What voltage would meters see on these positions, and what is reasonable??  I don't know, and I don't care.  It's not about how high of a voltage is reasonable on that jack, just how you kept taking the surge as high as you could, until you could get a failure.  But, I do know a lot of inexperienced people put meters on high voltages without knowing it.  I had a friend that damaged a cheap meter because he tried to measure the voltage coming out of a dog shock collar, and that was on the voltage position. 

I would expect a unit like the Fluke 101 to be able to take the full 600V on all levels.  I don't know how far beyond 600V it would go, but I'll bet it would go farther than any of the units you tested for the surge.  I would bet the Mastech unit would fail not too far past 300V.  Look at the link for the spec sheet of the Mastech 8261 you tested.  It lists the maximum voltage on the mV position as 250V, and protection on other positions like resistance as 380V.  This would not be a "more robust" meter.

http://www.p-mastech.com/images/Manual/ms8261%20english%20manual.pdf (http://www.p-mastech.com/images/Manual/ms8261%20english%20manual.pdf)


I'm also not asking YOU to test this.  I was saying this wold be something I would like to see.  If nobody else does testing like this, I just may have to do it myself.  I'm sure that I can get enough power out of my transformer to damage the meter, and determine how robust it is for handling the voltage.  What I may not be able to determine id "how bad" the damage "could have" been.  Once a meter fails due to high voltage on the wrong input, it could become shorted inside, draw lot of current, and fail violently.  My transformer would not be able to show that.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 06, 2015, 08:41:14 am
Quote
To be clear, I don't want them tested to ANY standard.  You, more than anybody, should get what I'm saying.
Never assume I understand anything.   :-DD :-DD

Quote
I don't want to test them to a standard, but section 101.3 of 61010-2-033  (attached at the end) would serve as a decent test to base the testing off of.

 :-+

Quote
I don't want to test them to a standard, but section 101.3 of 61010-2-033  (attached at the end) would serve as a decent test to base the testing off of. This section talks of putting the highest voltage the meter can test on the mains, on putting that on every jack, and every switch position.  It does not require the meter to survive, just not become a hazard.

You did not include everything.  The way I understand it, the DUT must survive.  But again, I bet we would get different answers from the manufactures as well.  No big deal.  See below...

Quote
101.3.1 General
Conformity is checked by inspection, evaluation of the design of the equipment, and as
specified in 101.3.2 to 101.3.3, as applicable.

101.3.2 Protection by a certified overcurrent protection device

During and after the test, no damage to the equipment shall occur.

101.3.3 Protection by uncertified current limitation devices or by impedances

During and after the test, no HAZARD shall arise, nor shall there be any evidence of fire,
arcing, explosion, or damage to impedance limitation devices or any component intended to
provide protection against electric shock, heat, arc or fire, including the ENCLOSURE and traces
on the printed wiring board.

No matter how this meter is protected (I am treating it as a black box) it needs to survive the test IMO.

That aside...   Watch the following as I amp up the 440V capacitor dump test....

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEMCrGchLxs&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 06, 2015, 08:58:39 am
So the way I read the specs that I have seen, in the end:

1. All terminals must withstand the rated voltage of the highest voltage stated on the meter, in every position of the function switches.

2. If there are any current limiting devices, they must function without any outward sign of them function or failing in any way, and must not be damaged or incur damage to the meter.

3. After the tests have been run, surge and cross function testing, the specs imply but do not state explicitly, that the meter should function well enough to show the highest rated voltage on the voltage function.

4. The specs do not imply that the meter must function properly on all functions after the test, just that it must show a proper voltage reading on the voltage functions after being subjected to the tests.

5. The tests should be done with the included test leads as they are part of the impedance path.

6. In all cases, the user must not be exposed to any harm as result of the test voltages and currents being applied.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 06, 2015, 09:03:35 am
Well, the specs say what they say.   I guess you could interpret them this way.   I would say for the part we are now looking at,  101.3.4 comes into play:

101.3.4 Test leads for the tests of 101.3.2 and 101.3.3

Sure you state that
Quote
5. The tests should be done with the included test leads as they are part of the impedance path.
But that's not what I see at all.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 06, 2015, 10:53:25 am
What camera are you using for your videos?  It does a very nice job.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 06, 2015, 11:00:41 am
What I was referring to is this part that I have gleaned from other posts. Remember that I am only going on the parts that I have seen and they might be out of context.

Quote
16.2 Multifunction meters and similar equipment
Multifunction meters and similar equipment shall not cause a HAZARD in any possible combination
of RATED input voltages, and settings of function and range controls. Possible HAZARDS include
electric shock, fire, arcing and explosion.
Conformity is checked by the following test.The maximum RATED voltage specified for any function is applied to each pair of TERMINALS in
turn, in every combination of function and range controls. The test source connected to the
equipment measuring TERMINALS during this test is limited to 3.6 kVA for measurement category I
or measurement category II. For measurement category III or measurement category IV, the test
circuit has to be capable of delivering 30 kVA.

During and after the tests, no HAZARD shall arise.
Multifunction meters and similar equipment are to be tested by changing the Function/Range Selector to all
possible settings while connected to the maximum rated source.”
NOTE If test probes are provided with the equipment being tested then they are to be used for the test.
Compliance is checked by testing to verify no hazard occurs when switching selector settings.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 06, 2015, 11:12:00 am
What I was referring to is this part that I have gleaned from other posts. Remember that I am only going on the parts that I have seen and they might be out of context.

Quote
16.2 Multifunction meters and similar equipment
Multifunction meters and similar equipment shall not cause a HAZARD in any possible combination
of RATED input voltages, and settings of function and range controls. Possible HAZARDS include
electric shock, fire, arcing and explosion.
Conformity is checked by the following test.The maximum RATED voltage specified for any function is applied to each pair of TERMINALS in
turn, in every combination of function and range controls. The test source connected to the
equipment measuring TERMINALS during this test is limited to 3.6 kVA for measurement category I
or measurement category II. For measurement category III or measurement category IV, the test
circuit has to be capable of delivering 30 kVA.

During and after the tests, no HAZARD shall arise.
Multifunction meters and similar equipment are to be tested by changing the Function/Range Selector to all
possible settings while connected to the maximum rated source.”
NOTE If test probes are provided with the equipment being tested then they are to be used for the test.
Compliance is checked by testing to verify no hazard occurs when switching selector settings.

I agree with you, and believe it does not have to function, just not become a hazard. However, that 16.2 section that you are posting is from 61010-1 2nd Edition.  It is not in 3rd Edition.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 06, 2015, 11:17:49 am
Does the 3rd edition and the supplements say anything about the need to use the test leads as supplied for the tests?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 06, 2015, 12:07:13 pm
Quote
To be clear, I don't want them tested to ANY standard.  You, more than anybody, should get what I'm saying.
Never assume I understand anything.   :-DD :-DD

Quote
I don't want to test them to a standard, but section 101.3 of 61010-2-033  (attached at the end) would serve as a decent test to base the testing off of.

 :-+

Quote
I don't want to test them to a standard, but section 101.3 of 61010-2-033  (attached at the end) would serve as a decent test to base the testing off of. This section talks of putting the highest voltage the meter can test on the mains, on putting that on every jack, and every switch position.  It does not require the meter to survive, just not become a hazard.

You did not include everything.  The way I understand it, the DUT must survive.  But again, I bet we would get different answers from the manufactures as well.  No big deal.  See below...

Quote
101.3.1 General
Conformity is checked by inspection, evaluation of the design of the equipment, and as
specified in 101.3.2 to 101.3.3, as applicable.

101.3.2 Protection by a certified overcurrent protection device

During and after the test, no damage to the equipment shall occur.

101.3.3 Protection by uncertified current limitation devices or by impedances

During and after the test, no HAZARD shall arise, nor shall there be any evidence of fire,
arcing, explosion, or damage to impedance limitation devices or any component intended to
provide protection against electric shock, heat, arc or fire, including the ENCLOSURE and traces
on the printed wiring board.

No matter how this meter is protected (I am treating it as a black box) it needs to survive the test IMO.

That aside...   Watch the following as I amp up the 440V capacitor dump test....

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEMCrGchLxs&feature=youtu.be

You did not post all of 101.3.3, which is the section that we would be talking about, because these inputs are protected by PTC's and MOV's, and not fuses, which is what 101.3.2 seems to refer to.

Read all of 101.3.3.  It say the protection circuit could be damaged, but that it should not damage other parts of the unit. If that PTC is damaged, the unit will probably not be functional, but would not become a hazard. You stopped your post right at the VERY next key line that says "Any damage to a device used for current limitation shall be ignored".

I am attaching the rest of section 101.3.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 06, 2015, 12:09:25 pm
Does the 3rd edition and the supplements say anything about the need to use the test leads as supplied for the tests?

Yes, that is listed in the documents I posted above.  It states to use the supplied leads, and then to repeat the test with others leads described in the standard.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 06, 2015, 12:27:12 pm
I am just using my old Cannon camera.   


Quote
You did not post all of 101.3.3, which is the section that we would be talking about, because these inputs are protected by PTC's and MOV's, and not fuses, which is what 101.3.2 seems to refer to.

It states "No part of this publication may be reproduced...".   I am not comfortable posting large sections.     

Quote
and not fuses, which is what 101.3.2 seems to refer to.
101.3.2 is for certified overcurrent protection device.   This can be more than fuses, or they would not state:
Quote
If the protection device is a fuse, ...
I believe this is any certified overcurrent device as it states.   This could be a PTC as long as it has been certified. 

101.3.3 is for uncertified current limitation devices.   This could be an uncertified fuse.  I saw a few of them.

We could debate the standards to no end.   There's really no point.    You see it one way, I see it another.  The manufactures don't agree.   No big deal.   One things for sure,  I would rather have a meter that remained functional than one that does not.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 06, 2015, 12:39:56 pm
Quote
Read all of 101.3.3.  It say the protection circuit could be damaged, b

Quote
During and after the test, ... or damage to impedance limitation devices or any component intended to provide protection against electric shock,...

I have no idea where you would see this as allowing the protection circuit to be damaged.   :-//    It is interesting how many ways a poorly written standard can be interpreted. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 06, 2015, 12:48:22 pm
Quote
Read all of 101.3.3.  It say the protection circuit could be damaged, b

Quote
During and after the test, ... or damage to impedance limitation devices or any component intended to provide protection against electric shock,...

I have no idea where you would see this as allowing the protection circuit to be damaged.   :-//    It is interesting how many ways a poorly written standard can be interpreted.

What about the line that stated "Any damage to a device used for current limitation shall be ignored"?????
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 06, 2015, 01:00:43 pm
  :-//    It is interesting how many ways a poorly written standard can be interpreted.

Maybe they will finally make it clear by the 5th or 6th Edition......
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 06, 2015, 02:07:01 pm
Quote
Read all of 101.3.3.  It say the protection circuit could be damaged, b

Quote
During and after the test, ... or damage to impedance limitation devices or any component intended to provide protection against electric shock,...

I have no idea where you would see this as allowing the protection circuit to be damaged.   :-//    It is interesting how many ways a poorly written standard can be interpreted.

What about the line that stated "Any damage to a device used for current limitation shall be ignored"?????

You only captured part of that sentence.  It states:
Quote
Any damage to a device used for current limitation shall be ignored if other parts of the equipment were not affected during the test.

Quote
If a device used for current limitation is damaged, it is replaced before the test is repeated.

In these two cases I believe they are referring to a user serviceable device.   UL, TUV and the like are not going to pull our their solder stations and start swapping parts.   I can see them changing a fuse.    So, if the fuse blew and no other damaged occurred, to the equipment, you can ignore that failure.   

Again, that's just the way I would read it.    If they made the standards clear, like I have to in my job, then companies could produce product which met these standards.  That would put a lot of government inspectors out of jobs and would allow a more fair global trade.   WTC is not tied with TUV for the fun of it.     If they made the standards that the people paid for, free for the people to read, the people may actually think,  :wtf: This is the safety standards we paid $$$$$ for you to come up with??   :-DD :-DD    If you have a TUV safety inspector you work with, ask them next time if some product you are working on is safe.  See what sort of response you get. 

All I can say is that the Fluke 101 can sit on the plate supply of the Drake TR-4 for at least 30 seconds in resistance, continuity, diode check and capacitance modes for at least 30 seconds and you can rotate the switch while the voltage is applied as much as you want.   If I had 10 more meters, I would have repeated that test on all of them.   I may have had 10 more dead meters too!  :-DD

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 06, 2015, 10:01:43 pm
If you have a TUV safety inspector you work with, ask them next time if some product you are working on is safe.  See what sort of response you get. 

I have never worked with TUV, only ETL and UL.

But, I have asked questions about standards on numerous occasions, trying to clear things up on standards. In areas where it did not seem clear, I ask specific questions about the meaning, and I have NEVER received a straight answer back. They will pretty much just do their testing, and tell you if you pass or fail. They never clarify the standard, probably because they don't know for sure either.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Neilm on July 07, 2015, 04:59:37 am
But, I have asked questions about standards on numerous occasions, trying to clear things up on standards. In areas where it did not seem clear, I ask specific questions about the meaning, and I have NEVER received a straight answer back. They will pretty much just do their testing, and tell you if you pass or fail. They never clarify the standard, probably because they don't know for sure either.

The trouble is they can't say "if the fuse blows change it" as someone might have some other way of interrupting the current and they would not want to preclude that.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 07, 2015, 12:45:02 pm
Looks like Hackaday picked up the story.   

http://hackaday.com/2015/07/04/exploding-multimeter-battle-royale/ (http://hackaday.com/2015/07/04/exploding-multimeter-battle-royale/)

I was fine with what they wrote until this part:

Quote
What’s the secret to Fluke’s success? You only need to look at what the Fluke 101 can’t do. Fluke’s budget meter doesn’t measure current. If you ever look inside a meter, you’ll usually find two fuses, one for measuring Amps and the other for all the other functions on the scope. There’s quite a bit of engineering that goes into the current measurement of a meter, and when it goes wrong you have a bomb on your hands. Fluke engineers rather intelligently dropped current measurement from this budget meter, allowing them to save that much on their BOM.

Which appears to have led to more confusion.   If people would have watched the videos, they would have known that no meter from the CAT III group was damaged in current mode.   They would also know that I stopped testing the current mode early on because the generator was putting out enough to blow the fuses and I did not want to replace them.   So all the meters were only tested using the modes that used the voltage input connections.   They would also have noticed that the Klein Tools meter had even less features than the 101 and was beat out by even the AMPROBE that has far more features.   The Gardner Bender meter failed in the first round of tests and where is it's current sense feature?

We can only run the tests, collect the data and post the results.    If people want to slant the data, I can't fix that.   

So, why does the 101 hold up so well?   I suspect circuit design, layout and part selection.   I have not taken this 101 apart but there is a video on youtube that shows the board.  Talk about an air gap.     But ... as much as it kills me to say it,  even more than the design, I suspect the culture within the company demands the meters meet a very high level of standards.    Again, some companies I contacted felt it was fine for a meter to not be functional after the surge test, while others require their products are not damaged.     The real test is going to be to get a high end meter and run it through the same tests.  That meter is going to have a lot more features than the 101.   

I gave up on contacting the service groups at the main companies.   If if blows I'll just return the thing and hope they warranty it.    Now if I could just find a meter I like.... 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on July 07, 2015, 12:53:13 pm
Quote
Now if I could just find a meter I like....

:-+
But I'm getting low on   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 07, 2015, 01:49:54 pm
I think it will be hard to get ANY company to send a meter to anyone who's intention is to try and make it blow up. Even if they are 100% confident that it meets all safety standards and quality. The tests will be continued until failure and no company wants to help show its product failing, reasonably or not.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 07, 2015, 10:17:22 pm
I think it will be hard to get ANY company to send a meter to anyone who's intention is to try and make it blow up. Even if they are 100% confident that it meets all safety standards and quality. The tests will be continued until failure and no company wants to help show its product failing, reasonably or not.

Getting a meter in the USA is not difficult.  You place the order, they send you the meter.   They don't ask the intended use when an order is placed. 
To be clear, I have NEVER asked Fluke or Keysight to send me a meter.    What I have asked them is if they would warranty their products if they failed before the Fluke 101.  I also provided them the link to this forum.  Only one company responded (not Fluke or Keysight).   

Also, as I mentioned earlier, I don't think there is much more I can do to test the meters at home.  My plan now is to just run the higher end meter through the tests that the 101 has been through and see if it survives. 

Because I plan to keep the higher end meter, there are certain features I would like to have.    I would have bought the Keysight already but to be honest, their lack of response does not give me a lot of confidence in them.      If I could combine the higher count and AC+DC mode with the 28II, I would have bought it.       
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Meter Junkie on July 08, 2015, 12:33:50 am
To be clear, I have NEVER asked Fluke or Keysight to send me a meter.    What I have asked them is if they would warranty their products if they failed before the Fluke 101.  I also provided them the link to this forum.  Only one company responded (not Fluke or Keysight).   

How are you contacting these companies? By sending an email to customer service from the website? A typical customer service person wouldn't have a clue what you are talking about, and be able to respond to you.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on July 08, 2015, 02:16:36 am
To be clear, I have NEVER asked Fluke or Keysight to send me a meter.    What I have asked them is if they would warranty their products if they failed before the Fluke 101.  I also provided them the link to this forum.  Only one company responded (not Fluke or Keysight).   

How are you contacting these companies? By sending an email to customer service from the website? A typical customer service person wouldn't have a clue what you are talking about, and be able to respond to you.

I work in Biotech and our CS reps are trained to escalate with technical questions to the TS team. If the TS team doesn't know they forward it on to the scientists. I would imagine this is the same for them.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 08, 2015, 03:09:32 am
Do we pull the trigger???  After all it should at least be as robust as the 101, right?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on July 08, 2015, 03:25:56 am
I concur.  Luckily, eevblog is well indexed by google and appears first when a search is done on a topic discussed here.  Eevblog has more informed members that generate less noise compared to hackaday.

In toto this thread suggests Fluke's low end meters sacrifice feature sets, but maintain safety expected of its more expensive DMMs.  Following the videos as they evolved in the series, its clear to me showcasing Fluke was not the goal, it just happened this way, even if not so, so long as the surge energies be true, the meter has survived, QED.

Electricians often use clamp meters to measure current, so such users can opt to have just what they need and avoid the potential pitfalls that blow expensive DMM fuses.


Looks like Hackaday picked up the story.   

http://hackaday.com/2015/07/04/exploding-multimeter-battle-royale/ (http://hackaday.com/2015/07/04/exploding-multimeter-battle-royale/)

I was fine with what they wrote until this part:

Quote
What’s the secret to Fluke’s success? You only need to look at what the Fluke 101 can’t do. Fluke’s budget meter doesn’t measure current. If you ever look inside a meter, you’ll usually find two fuses, one for measuring Amps and the other for all the other functions on the scope. There’s quite a bit of engineering that goes into the current measurement of a meter, and when it goes wrong you have a bomb on your hands. Fluke engineers rather intelligently dropped current measurement from this budget meter, allowing them to save that much on their BOM.

Which appears to have led to more confusion.  If people would have watched the videos, they would have known that no meter from the CAT III group was damaged in current mode.     

So, why does the 101 hold up so well?  I suspect circuit design, layout and part selection.   I have not taken this 101 apart but there is a video on youtube that shows the board.  Talk about an air gap.     But ... as much as it kills me to say it,  even more than the design, I suspect the culture within the company demands the meters meet a very high level of standards.    Again, some companies I contacted felt it was fine for a meter to not be functional after the surge test, while others require their products are not damaged.     The real test is going to be to get a high end meter and run it through the same tests.  That meter is going to have a lot more features than the 101.   

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 08, 2015, 10:53:40 am
Do we pull the trigger???  After all it should at least be as robust as the 101, right?
nice! I dunno man.. Grats on the 87V though!  :-DMM
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on July 09, 2015, 02:49:49 am
Looks like Hackaday picked up the story.   

http://hackaday.com/2015/07/04/exploding-multimeter-battle-royale/ (http://hackaday.com/2015/07/04/exploding-multimeter-battle-royale/)

I was fine with what they wrote until this part:

Quote
What’s the secret to Fluke’s success? You only need to look at what the Fluke 101 can’t do. Fluke’s budget meter doesn’t measure current. If you ever look inside a meter, you’ll usually find two fuses, one for measuring Amps and the other for all the other functions on the scope. There’s quite a bit of engineering that goes into the current measurement of a meter, and when it goes wrong you have a bomb on your hands. Fluke engineers rather intelligently dropped current measurement from this budget meter, allowing them to save that much on their BOM.

Which appears to have led to more confusion.   If people would have watched the videos, they would have known that no meter from the CAT III group was damaged in current mode.   They would also know that I stopped testing the current mode early on because the generator was putting out enough to blow the fuses and I did not want to replace them.   So all the meters were only tested using the modes that used the voltage input connections.   They would also have noticed that the Klein Tools meter had even less features than the 101 and was beat out by even the AMPROBE that has far more features.   The Gardner Bender meter failed in the first round of tests and where is it's current sense feature?

We can only run the tests, collect the data and post the results.    If people want to slant the data, I can't fix that.   

So, why does the 101 hold up so well?   I suspect circuit design, layout and part selection.   I have not taken this 101 apart but there is a video on youtube that shows the board.  Talk about an air gap.     But ... as much as it kills me to say it,  even more than the design, I suspect the culture within the company demands the meters meet a very high level of standards.    Again, some companies I contacted felt it was fine for a meter to not be functional after the surge test, while others require their products are not damaged.     The real test is going to be to get a high end meter and run it through the same tests.  That meter is going to have a lot more features than the 101.   

I gave up on contacting the service groups at the main companies.   If if blows I'll just return the thing and hope they warranty it.    Now if I could just find a meter I like....

Sorry but I disagree with you; It VERY MUCH is a big deal. It isn't about the current range being the weakest, that is never mentioned or discussed. It is about the BOM and space savings. The large HRC/HBC fuses are some of the most expensive things on the board and they are some of the biggest things on the board with the fattest traces. The money saved on dropping fuses from the BOM can be used for better higher quality component selection (while keeping the same profit margin) and the savings in space can be used to better route other traces, add cut-outs etc. By cutting the fuses, you can get higher rated MOVs and PTCs, with out the fat current traces and shunt you can get extra space to add cutouts, keep outs, etc. I made just this argument  on another site (would be funny if hackaday saw that discussion and that is where they get their idea from) and am standing by it. I think this was a conscious decision by Fluke because they knew they couldn't make a safe meter, hit this price point AND keep the current function but the thing that enables the performance at this price point IS the lack of a current function. It was very clearly a conscious decision, but Fluke knew what they were doing when they dropped the current function and what it would enable them to do that they couldn't while keeping it.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 09, 2015, 03:44:33 am
I agree, it's important when you look at the economics of the $50 meter. But from evaluating the technical merits of the protection on these meters, it isn't as important. Fluke chose better components, added more creepage, used better PCBs.. it's still the aim of what Joe attempted to test and succeeded at demonstrating. Yes they had to drop current measurement for it, but no one is disputing that.

We all know you pay more for less features with Fluke. I don't think that was ever disputed. Lower end Flukes are very spartan. The aim of the test was to show which meter had best durability/protection, and in particular with the Fluke 101 weather Fluke's reputation for trustiness was justified.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 09, 2015, 05:45:58 am
Quote
I think this was a conscious decision by Fluke because they knew they couldn't make a safe meter,
I don't know if the Fluke 101 is a safe meter or not.   I thought I had made it clear, but again, safety was never a criteria.  I was only looking for the most robust meter out of the group.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 05:49:32 am
Sorry but I disagree with you; It VERY MUCH is a big deal. It isn't about the current range being the weakest, that is never mentioned or discussed. It is about the BOM and space savings. The large HRC/HBC fuses are some of the most expensive things on the board and they are some of the biggest things on the board with the fattest traces. The money saved on dropping fuses from the BOM can be used for better higher quality component selection (while keeping the same profit margin) and the savings in space can be used to better route other traces, add cut-outs etc.
The next model in the range is the Fluke 106. It has current measurement and it costs about 50% more. The physical size is very similar (12mm longer, 5mm wider).

Fluke don't describe it as "extremely rugged" like they do 101.  :-DMM


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 05:52:44 am
Quote
I think this was a conscious decision by Fluke because they knew they couldn't make a safe meter,
I don't know if the Fluke 101 is a safe meter or not.
It does have a standardized safety-level rating stamped on it. Fluke have shown themselves to be honest and conservative with their ratings.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 09, 2015, 06:50:59 am
Quote
I think this was a conscious decision by Fluke because they knew they couldn't make a safe meter,
I don't know if the Fluke 101 is a safe meter or not.
It does have a standardized safety-level rating stamped on it. Fluke have shown themselves to be honest and conservative with their ratings.

Talking about safety is like debating the IEC standards. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on July 09, 2015, 07:16:38 am
Quote
I think this was a conscious decision by Fluke because they knew they couldn't make a safe meter,
I don't know if the Fluke 101 is a safe meter or not.   I thought I had made it clear, but again, safety was never a criteria.  I was only looking for the most robust meter out of the group.

This isn't an evaluation of your tests defining safety; I am saying THEIR thought process. While not intricately linked, robustness and safety do share some commonalities. Many good design practices to ensure a safe meter will also ensure a robust meter. This is to say that while the two do not have to be linked they can be. Additionally, knowing what we know about fluke, they take user safety very seriously, to the point that a meter that is robust is likely safe as well. But it is only likely, not proven.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 09, 2015, 07:21:35 am
Quote
I think this was a conscious decision by Fluke because they knew they couldn't make a safe meter,
I don't know if the Fluke 101 is a safe meter or not.   I thought I had made it clear, but again, safety was never a criteria.  I was only looking for the most robust meter out of the group.

This isn't an evaluation of your tests defining safety; I am saying THEIR thought process. While not intricately linked, robustness and safety do share some commonalities. Many good design practices to ensure a safe meter will also ensure a robust meter. This is to say that while the two do not have to be linked they can be. Additionally, knowing what we know about fluke, they take user safety very seriously, to the point that a meter that is robust is likely safe as well. But it is only likely, not proven.

Could be.  I don't care one way or the other.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 09, 2015, 12:20:21 pm
Well the moment a few of you have been waiting for is near.   I said from the beginning that I would put the winner of the $50 shootout against an expensive meter.  I've had the 87V for a few days now and it's certainly not a great meter.  Not a lot of features.  But it does cost a fair amount of money and is pretty common.   

Again, I have no plans to test beyond what I have done with the Fluke 101.  I would expect the 87V to handle all of those tests and far beyond.  I base that on the Fluke video I had linked to earlier where they were testing at 17KV.   In other words, I plan to call it a draw after I am finished with these tests, unless something happens and the sky falls or the sun goes out.   Don't worry, I won't be dropping it off a bridge to see if the LCD will crack.   If it fails it will be from an electrical event. 
 
So expect another boring video like the last few.    One thing I plan to do is also test the leads supplied with the 101.   Maybe that will add some excitement.    :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 09, 2015, 12:48:22 pm
I've had the 87V for a few days now and it's certainly not a great meter.  Not a lot of features.
You seem disappointed? Not sure which features you were expecting. It's a standard multipurpose industrial DMM with all the essentials. That's the point of it. That's why it's easy to use, boots fast, and that's why it has a long battery life and longevity.

Every feature it has is implemented well. Bar graph is fast, continuity latch is fast, and the UI is easy and quick exactly because it doesn't have a lot of features. 289 has a lot of features, but at the cost of a lot of compromises in day to day usability.

I'd probably look at Agilent meters if you're looking for featureful DMMs, because they pack tons of features in their meters of the same category.

Personally I think you're being harsh on it. I think it's the best all around no frills meter Fluke ever made.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 09, 2015, 01:00:20 pm
I've had the 87V for a few days now and it's certainly not a great meter.  Not a lot of features.
You seem disappointed? Not sure which features you were expecting. It's a standard multipurpose industrial DMM with all the essentials. That's the point of it. That's why it's easy to use, boots fast, and that's why it has a long battery life and longevity.

Every feature it has is implemented well. Bar graph is fast, continuity latch is fast, and the UI is easy and quick exactly because it doesn't have a lot of features. 289 has a lot of features, but at the cost of a lot of compromises in day to day usability.

I'd probably look at Agilent meters if you're looking for featureful DMMs, because they pack tons of features in their meters of the same category.

Personally I think you're being harsh on it. I think it's the best all around no frills meter Fluke ever made.

Well that is the point of having different choices. He isn't that impressed and it is his money. There are other options and that is good.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 09, 2015, 01:02:58 pm
I've had the 87V for a few days now and it's certainly not a great meter.  Not a lot of features.
You seem disappointed? Not sure which features you were expecting. It's a standard multipurpose industrial DMM with all the essentials. That's the point of it. That's why it's easy to use, boots fast, and that's why it has a long battery life and longevity.

Every feature it has is implemented well. Bar graph is fast, continuity latch is fast, and the UI is easy and quick exactly because it doesn't have a lot of features. 289 has a lot of features, but at the cost of a lot of compromises in day to day usability.

I'd probably look at Agilent meters if you're looking for featureful DMMs, because they pack tons of features in their meters of the same category.

Personally I think you're being harsh on it. I think it's the best all around no frills meter Fluke ever made.

Well that is the point of having different choices. He isn't that impressed and it is his money. There are other options and that is good.
I understand, hence the reason I suggested Agilent.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 07:12:03 pm
So expect another boring video like the last few.    One thing I plan to do is also test the leads supplied with the 101.   Maybe that will add some excitement.    :popcorn:
Could it be done with the back off to see if there's any sparks?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 07:15:35 pm
I've had the 87V for a few days now and it's certainly not a great meter.  Not a lot of features.  But it does cost a fair amount of money and is pretty common.   
'Boring' is sort of the point with that meter.

(...along with other words like 'dependable' and 'trustworthy').

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on July 09, 2015, 10:30:51 pm
Nice.  I look forward to your videos!  Thanks again, for doing these tests.  The 87V is a defacto standard in that class DMM, so these tests will attract attention from a lot of professionals, particularly if it fails  :o

One thing I've puzzled about is test leads, PVC or silicone have dielectric breakdowns in > 60kV/mm range, but that is for newly manufactured leads, varies by manufacturer, and non-sustained duration: corona resistance is not a specification for test leads.

http://www.shinetsusilicone-global.com/catalog/pdf/rubber_e.pdf (http://www.shinetsusilicone-global.com/catalog/pdf/rubber_e.pdf)

For old leads subject to wear and tear, its a different story, thus its always a good idea to get new leads periodically if you deal with kV, or test it to failure as we hope to see :popcorn:


Well the moment a few of you have been waiting for is near.   I said from the beginning that I would put the winner of the $50 shootout against an expensive meter.  I've had the 87V for a few days now and it's certainly not a great meter.  Not a lot of features.  But it does cost a fair amount of money and is pretty common.   

Again, I have no plans to test beyond what I have done with the Fluke 101.  I would expect the 87V to handle all of those tests and far beyond.  I base that on the Fluke video I had linked to earlier where they were testing at 17KV.   In other words, I plan to call it a draw after I am finished with these tests, unless something happens and the sky falls or the sun goes out.   Don't worry, I won't be dropping it off a bridge to see if the LCD will crack.   If it fails it will be from an electrical event. 
 
So expect another boring video like the last few.    One thing I plan to do is also test the leads supplied with the 101.   Maybe that will add some excitement.    :popcorn:

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 10:55:37 pm
The 87V is a defacto standard in that class DMM, so these tests will attract attention from a lot of professionals, particularly if it fails  :o
What are the chances of failure?  :-//
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on July 10, 2015, 12:35:48 am
I expect low.  But we can't know for sure unless we try a surge test and demonstrate it, then its not just an educated guess.  Many things can change over time and cause problems in new DMMs versus prior runs of the same model.  A test of just one meter can be criticized, but its better than nothing.

This is one reason in the past, say in the US military, samples of a procurement were tested per batch by independent military labs to insure they live up to their specification, but I don't know if they still do this.



The 87V is a defacto standard in that class DMM, so these tests will attract attention from a lot of professionals, particularly if it fails  :o
What are the chances of failure?  :-//

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 10, 2015, 01:07:50 pm
You seem disappointed? Not sure which features you were expecting. It's a standard multipurpose industrial DMM with all the essentials. That's the point of it. That's why it's easy to use, boots fast, and that's why it has a long battery life and longevity.

Every feature it has is implemented well. Bar graph is fast, continuity latch is fast, and the UI is easy and quick exactly because it doesn't have a lot of features. 289 has a lot of features, but at the cost of a lot of compromises in day to day usability.

I'd probably look at Agilent meters if you're looking for featureful DMMs, because they pack tons of features in their meters of the same category.

Personally I think you're being harsh on it. I think it's the best all around no frills meter Fluke ever made.

The 87V is just over $400 now on Amazon.  For that price, I am disappointed in what the meter can and can't do.   Really what it comes down to is if the 87V is at least as robust as the 101.   That was my end goal for this experiment and I will see it through. 

Keysight never returned my attempts to contact them.   Watching Dave's reviews on the one with those buried fuses, it's as bad as the 87V.   It has the features I want but I have concerns on just how robust it would be.    To be honest, at this stage they would have to provide me with a meter to test knowing it could be damaged before I would consider it.   

I expect low.  But we can't know for sure unless we try a surge test and demonstrate it, then its not just an educated guess.  Many things can change over time and cause problems in new DMMs versus prior runs of the same model.  A test of just one meter can be criticized, but its better than nothing.

This is one reason in the past, say in the US military, samples of a procurement were tested per batch by independent military labs to insure they live up to their specification, but I don't know if they still do this.

The 87V is a defacto standard in that class DMM, so these tests will attract attention from a lot of professionals, particularly if it fails  :o
What are the chances of failure?  :-//


This is an excellent point.   I was very happy when another member took it upon themselves to run similar tests on the 101 (Well, that is until I stepped things for that last round  :-DD).  I would like to see a second 87V tested as well just so we have two data points.     Even then, that's too small of a sample size.     I'm sure Fluke already has the answer as that video made it sound like they test every design to failure. 

From what I understand from all of the posts I have read about the amount of money Fluke has invested in making their designs robust, and the 87V being a very popular meter and how long they have had to improve their designs, and again we are talking about it just doing as well as the lowest cost meter Fluke offers.  It doesn't even have to exceed it!   I assume the chances of a failure are very low.   

So expect another boring video like the last few.    One thing I plan to do is also test the leads supplied with the 101.   Maybe that will add some excitement.    :popcorn:
Could it be done with the back off to see if there's any sparks?

It would be better to leave the meter sealed to avoid adding any variables to the test.   

It's been a very long 5 weeks.  Thanks for being patient and supportive.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 10, 2015, 01:29:53 pm
Quote
The 87V is just over $400 now on Amazon.  For that price, I am disappointed in what the meter can and can't do.

That is why I suggested a Brymen BM829 (Greenlee DM830) or a BM869 (Greenlee DM860). For the price, their functionality is hard to beat. The Keysights are good too of course.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on July 10, 2015, 02:30:16 pm
One year warranty only, no AutoHold feature, no latched continuity, short battery life, Peak hold 800mS minimum transient only, no Null in central position on the bargraph, double the burden voltage on mA, lower diode test voltage, tiny selector switch. There is a lot not to like on the Brymen meter, compared to the Fluke 87V.

In my view, the lifetime warranty alone is worth the price difference.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 10, 2015, 02:53:18 pm
Quote
The 87V is just over $400 now on Amazon.  For that price, I am disappointed in what the meter can and can't do.

That is why I suggested a Brymen BM829 (Greenlee DM830) or a BM869 (Greenlee DM860). For the price, their functionality is hard to beat. The Keysights are good too of course.

It is my understanding that the meter must cost a lot for it to be any good and that it must be a name brand.  If I tested a meter that was less than $300, there are some (including myself) that would feel we did not met the higher cost target.    For the brand, Fluke seems to be very popular.   So we push ahead with the popular/robust 87V.   

If any of the other brands are any good for what I need,  consider that pretty much every handheld I damaged during these tests was better than every other handheld I have owned, the bar is set low.   :-DD
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 10, 2015, 03:44:28 pm
The 87V is just over $400 now on Amazon.  For that price, I am disappointed in what the meter can and can't do.   Really what it comes down to is if the 87V is at least as robust as the 101.
The price seems to have spiked recently for some reason.
(https://i.imgur.com/g1QQkTj.png)
I can see that being an issue. I've scored mine on Ebay for much less, so I may have a different perspective.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 10, 2015, 03:46:09 pm
Quote
The 87V is just over $400 now on Amazon.  For that price, I am disappointed in what the meter can and can't do.

That is why I suggested a Brymen BM829 (Greenlee DM830) or a BM869 (Greenlee DM860). For the price, their functionality is hard to beat. The Keysights are good too of course.
BM829 doesn't have a latched continuity test nor does it have auto hold, which in my view are essential features for a DMM. So I fail to see how their functionality is hard to beat, when pretty basic and commonly used features are missing.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 10, 2015, 04:02:50 pm
One year warranty only,
Greenlee is lifetime, as has been said many times

no AutoHold feature, no latched continuity, short battery life, Peak hold 800mS minimum transient only, no Null in central position on the bargraph, double the burden voltage on mA, lower diode test voltage, tiny selector switch. There is a lot not to like on the Brymen meter, compared to the Fluke 87V.
Yes, everyone has their preferences. There are many benefits to the Brymens (Greenlee) that the 87V does not have. I do not want to have to list them again for the nth time, but I guess I need to.

The BM869s has 50000/500000 counts, better DC and AC volts accuracy, better DC and AC current accuracy, AC+DC TRMS selectable on volts and amps, dual display, PC connection option, dual temperature, CATIV/1000V, dBm, 100kHz ACV bandwidth, 1Mhz frequency counter, the 87V does 250uS for repetitive peak detect but 1mS for one shot and BM869s does 0.8mS, 41 segment bar graph at 60 updates per second, 5 updates per second on the display . All of this for a lower price.
BM869s with one year warranty: $310 or less shipped worldwide
Greenlee DM860a with lifetime warranty: $360 shipped in the US

Fluke 87V: $400 shipped in the US

In my view, the lifetime warranty alone is worth the price difference.
And again if that is the main worth, the Greenlee rebadges have lifetime warranty too.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 10, 2015, 04:06:40 pm
BM829 doesn't have a latched continuity test nor does it have auto hold, which in my view are essential features for a DMM. So I fail to see how their functionality is hard to beat, when pretty basic and commonly used features are missing.

What you are doing is saying that these two functions are important to you and therefore all other benefits do not count. But that is to you, not everyone. Everyone has different wants or needs. If you want a Fluke for your reasons then I am happy that you have a Fluke. If you want something else, then I am just stating what is offered in another brand so it can be considered.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 10, 2015, 04:11:28 pm
better DC and AC volts accuracy, better DC and AC current accuracy, AC+DC TRMS selectable on volts and amps, dual display,
Better spec sheet accuracy which doesn't mean much. We all know Fluke, Keithley, Keysight add a lot of margin in their accuracy figures. Brymen certainly hasn't been around long enough to earn that reputation.

50K+ resolution on a DMM is overrated. Brymen BM869s is missing essential features that are actually important on a DMM. 87V doesn't just have a better battery life it has at least 4 times better battery life.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 10, 2015, 04:19:36 pm
better DC and AC volts accuracy, better DC and AC current accuracy, AC+DC TRMS selectable on volts and amps, dual display,
Better spec sheet accuracy which doesn't mean much. We all know Fluke, Keithley, Keysight add a lot of margin in their accuracy figures. Brymen certainly hasn't been around long enough to earn that reputation.

50K+ resolution on a DMM is overrated. Brymen BM869s is missing essential features that are actually important on a DMM. 87V doesn't just have a better battery life it has at least 4 times better battery life.

Brymen has been making Amprobe, Extech and other brands for many years. How long is not long enough?

You are demonstrating your preferences, and that is fine. You are also making assertions without facts based on your preferences. OK, whatever.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 10, 2015, 04:22:28 pm
Back on topic:

joeqsmith:

I am sure that the 87V will pass the tests and you will learn to like it. It is a great multimeter with many good characteristics. It has a following for a reason.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: retiredcaps on July 10, 2015, 04:31:33 pm
Greenlee is lifetime, as has been said many times
Again, I have searched on Greenlee's website and there is no concrete number of years as to what "lifetime" means like Fluke's warranty (Fluke 87V is minimum 10 years to buyer who purchased from authorized Fluke dealer).

What does Greenlee's limited lifetime warranty in terms of years to a buyer?  Is it 5?  Is it 10?  Is it 20?  Is it 100?  Greenlee needs to provide a number.  Limited lifetime is a marketing term that can mean anything.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 10, 2015, 04:41:03 pm
better DC and AC volts accuracy, better DC and AC current accuracy, AC+DC TRMS selectable on volts and amps, dual display,
Better spec sheet accuracy which doesn't mean much. We all know Fluke, Keithley, Keysight add a lot of margin in their accuracy figures. Brymen certainly hasn't been around long enough to earn that reputation.

50K+ resolution on a DMM is overrated. Brymen BM869s is missing essential features that are actually important on a DMM. 87V doesn't just have a better battery life it has at least 4 times better battery life.

Brymen has been making Amprobe, Extech and other brands for many years. How long is not long enough?

You are demonstrating your preferences, and that is fine. You are also making assertions without facts based on your preferences. OK, whatever.
I am speaking purely pragmatically about Brymen here.

If the intended purpose is a general purpose day to day DMM, you want something quick and dependable. With essential features implemented well, with long battery life. When you grab a meter you want it to work.

Latched continuity and auto hold are essential day to day features.

Even the 20K high res mode on 87V has limited use, because most of the time you just want to measure a value and the extra digits don't really help you, it just makes the number longer to read, the least significant digits are pretty much always inconsequential.

And I am not saying high resolution is useless, there are plenty of uses for high resolution measurements with a proper heat compensated bench DMM. But on a go to hand held DMM it's very low on the list of important features.

And I am not singling out Brymen here, I think Fluke's own 289 fails at this as well for much of the same reasons, although at least it has a proper continuity test and auto hold.

I just think it's misleading suggesting Brymen 869 as an alternative to 87V as this super bargain with tons of features without also mentioning its major shortcomings.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 10, 2015, 04:55:45 pm
Quote
Lifetime Limited Warranty
Greenlee Textron Inc. warrants to the original purchaser of these goods for use that these
products
will be free from defects in workmanship and material for their useful life, excepting normal wear and
abuse. This warranty is subject to the same terms and conditions contained in Greenlee Textron Inc.’s
standard one-year limited warranty

I agree it is not necessarily well defined. "useful life"?

http://definitions.uslegal.com/u/useful-life/ (http://definitions.uslegal.com/u/useful-life/)
Quote
Useful Life is the expected period of time, in years, during which a depreciating asset will be productive. It is the number of years, as set by the IRS, that depreciable business equipment or property is expected to be in use. The IRS has a depreciation table for almost every item, including computers, vehicles, and other equipment.

Not much clearer to no legal types, but one list of depreciation for tools says 20 years s a suggested "useful life".

This assumes that Greenlee is asserting this legal definition for their warranty. I contact them tomorrow to get an official word.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on July 10, 2015, 05:00:53 pm
Greenlee sells pipes and fishing gear. Who is to say they will still sell rebranded Brymen meters 10 years down the line?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 10, 2015, 05:05:05 pm
I just think it's misleading suggesting Brymen 869 as an alternative to 87V as this super bargain with tons of features without also mentioning its major shortcomings.

It has shortcomings to you, just as the 87V has shortcomings to others. I have stated many times what are the advantages of the 87V and other Flukes. I just did again in this thread. What you like, others don't care. What others like, obviously don't impress you much neither. It is demonstrably true that the BM869s has more features and more accuracy than the 87V and for a lower price. It is also demonstrably true that the 87V has some features that are preferred over everything that the BM869s has. One person's preference should not dictate the "truth".
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 10, 2015, 05:07:03 pm
Greenlee sells pipes and fishing gear. Who is to say they will still sell rebranded Brymen meters 10 years down the line?

Please, don't start making red herrings.  Fluke could go bankrupt, or a new owner buy them just to run them into the ground, or the world could end.... ::)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 10, 2015, 05:11:50 pm
I just think it's misleading suggesting Brymen 869 as an alternative to 87V as this super bargain with tons of features without also mentioning its major shortcomings.

It has shortcomings to you, just as the 87V has shortcomings to others. I have stated many times what are the advantages of the 87V and other Flukes. I just did again in this thread. What you like, others don't care. What others like, obviously don't impress you much neither. It is demonstrably true that the BM869s has more features and more accuracy than the 87V and for a lower price. It is also demonstrably true that the 87V has some features that are preferred over everything that the BM869s has. One person's preference should not dictate the "truth".
Not having a latched continuity or auto hold or a much shorter battery life aren't preferences. They are real shortcomings on the Brymen 869 part when compared to 87V.

Nobody would prefer to have a 100 hour battery life over the 400 hour battery life. Nobody would prefer not to hear a continuity short or open. Ok some may not even realise how useful Auto Hold is.

I know you have a vested interest in presenting Brymen in the best possible light because you use EEVB to push your product. But please don't try to turn this on some fictional preferences I have. They are real tangible shortcomings.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 10, 2015, 05:21:22 pm
Again accusations of me lying to sell product. You guys are really something. You make assertions based only on your preference and call anyone else who does not agree not educated. Logical fallacies and ad hominem  attacks always demonstrates something doesn't it?

Sorry joeqsmtih for suggesting you might be happier with the BM869s when you stated your disappointment with the 87V. Obviously your opinion is worthless to them too and my suggestion was uneducated and only in my interest.

I will not contribute anymore to polluting your thread by arguing. Sorry it came to this. Your hard work and time deserved more respect.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 10, 2015, 05:22:41 pm
Again they are not preferences. Try to acknowledge faults in your own products and you might have better arguments.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on July 10, 2015, 06:07:27 pm
Again they are not preferences. Try to acknowledge faults in your own products and you might have better arguments.
Until you attempt to walk the tightrope of a supplier vs a keen electronics enthusist you'd never know.

We select products WE can stand behind, have confidence and trust in, AND KNOW there are many that for one reason or another cannot see what we see and rightly so, have their own opinions.

Is X product better than Y product, of course it is.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it is a lesson we must all learn.

Live and let live.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 10, 2015, 06:39:58 pm
Again they are not preferences. Try to acknowledge faults in your own products and you might have better arguments.
Until you attempt to walk the tightrope of a supplier vs a keen electronics enthusist you'd never know.

We select products WE can stand behind, have confidence and trust in, AND KNOW there are many that for one reason or another cannot see what we see and rightly so, have their own opinions.

Is X product better than Y product, of course it is.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it is a lesson we must all learn.

Live and let live.
Brymen has its merits. I've also stated in the past, if one of the features it offers are a must then yes. Also the price is pretty compelling. And frankly compared to $400+ on a Fluke 87V I can absolutely see it being a better buy in some cases.

But I was talking about tangible shortcomings that weren't being acknowledged and instead dismissed as just my preferences. Fast latched continuity isn't just a preference. It's superior solution. There is a real reason for it. And that reason is that without it a human ear cannot detect short changes in continuity.

Now one can choose to not care about fast latched continuity and that's absolutely fine. But don't just call it a preference as if the alternative solution is comparable. It's not. It's inferior.

After all this is an engineering forum, not a fashion one.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 10, 2015, 07:38:51 pm
I have to say one more thing and then I am done on this topic. Perhaps I was too harsh on Lightgages.

We all have our biases, but he's generally a really helpful part of this community and I think it was unfair of me to call out his conflict of interest in the exchange.

It was a cheap shot and I should be better than that. Sorry Lightgages.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 10, 2015, 11:23:11 pm
Again accusations of me lying to sell product. You guys are really something. You make assertions based only on your preference and call anyone else who does not agree not educated. Logical fallacies and ad hominem  attacks always demonstrates something doesn't it?

Sorry joeqsmtih for suggesting you might be happier with the BM869s when you stated your disappointment with the 87V. Obviously your opinion is worthless to them too and my suggestion was uneducated and only in my interest.

I will not contribute anymore to polluting your thread by arguing. Sorry it came to this. Your hard work and time deserved more respect.

I would have added a Bryman to the test if they offered one in the $50 price range with a CAT III 600V rating.   The Ex-Tech I tested did not do very well.   In the next video I plan to show the 87V compared with another meter.   Don't expect me to do a full meter review but I thought there were a couple of things that were worth including. 

Personally, I don't mind people presenting alternatives.   There is no way I can afford test every meter out there.   Of course, if you sell products, there is always going to be a conflict of interest (intended or not).   

I have to say one more thing and then I am done on this topic. Perhaps I was too harsh on Lightgages.

We all have our biases, but he's generally a really helpful part of this community and I think it was unfair of me to call out his conflict of interest in the exchange.

It was a cheap shot and I should be better than that. Sorry Lightgages.

 :-+

BTW, that's a huge price difference!!!???   I wonder why it bounces around so much.   The 28II was actually less when I checked and it is sold as a more robust meter.   :-//

Hope to have the video up in the next day.   Get ready for it!
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: dadler on July 11, 2015, 04:09:07 am
BM869s with one year warranty: $310 or less shipped worldwide

Hmm http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/ (http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/)

$220.68, plus I paid $8 DHL two day shipping to California, USA. It may cost more to ship "worldwide".

So perhaps "or way less"...
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 11, 2015, 08:34:00 am
Only one meter will survive as the Fluke 87V is put against the Fluke 101.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GyoulNOPD4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GyoulNOPD4)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on July 11, 2015, 09:10:01 am
Joe, sit back and have a well deserved rest.
Great work, we are all in your debt.
 :clap:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 11, 2015, 10:23:43 am
That 101 can sure take the abuse. Nice conclusion to the tests.

Were you testing at 12Kv? (not sure if that was the latest iteration of your transient generator box).

I'd still give good marks to the 87V in that test. No arcing, failure in one range of a non voltage measurement function. Way beyond the point of where all the other meters failed (3Kv?).

Hopefully you can get your 87V repaired.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: miguelvp on July 11, 2015, 10:45:22 am
Hopefully you can get your 87V repaired.

He did in the video. Unless I dreamt it since I was watching the video in bed.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 11, 2015, 10:54:33 am
Hopefully you can get your 87V repaired.

He did in the video. Unless I dreamt it since I was watching the video in bed.
You didn't I missed that part, somehow.  |O
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 11, 2015, 11:23:16 am
Joe, sit back and have a well deserved rest.
Great work, we are all in your debt.
 :clap:

Thanks. 

That 101 can sure take the abuse. Nice conclusion to the tests.

Were you testing at 12Kv? (not sure if that was the latest iteration of your transient generator box).

I'd still give good marks to the 87V in that test. No arcing, failure in one range of a non voltage measurement function. Way beyond the point of where all the other meters failed (3Kv?).

Hopefully you can get your 87V repaired.

Sorry but I have been running on autopilot for a while now.   I misspoke in a few places during the video.  The surge test was 13KV peak, 100us FWHH, 2ohm source, about 10 second recharge time, three hits per function, both +/-.   No changes were made to the generator from when it was used to test the 101. 

You can be sure, if parts where blown apart like this, there was an arc.   Who knows what that would do with some real energy behind it.   

For $412 US, I expect that the 87V would exceed the 101 in every way!   If the defense for the 87V is that you don't care about the robustness, then I would suggest there are many meters that may be better suited for your needs.    I am not willing to lower my expectations like this.  Fluke are the ones showing their videos of all of the dangers when working with high energy sources, they are the ones showing how far they will go to insure the robustness of their products.     Each and every meter Fluke makes should be at least as robust as their lowest cost meter!   If they can't deliver this, I am not interested.    Fluke would have to give me a meter at this point to prove to me that it would actually meet that goal before I would pay for a high end one.    All the marketing in the world will not change that.   

I would guess based on your last comment that you did not watch the full video.   During the video, I tore down the 87V, showed the damage, repaired it, retested it, then compared it with another lower cost meter.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 11, 2015, 11:42:00 am
Yeah I since watched the whole video. (spoke too soon).
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: mtdoc on July 11, 2015, 11:56:02 am
Interesting and entertaining videos.  Well done.

That said however, I would hardly call a one-off test of this sort any definitive test of a meter's robustness. 

Sure, if the Fluke 87 had failed spectacularly at a relatively low voltage that might say something, but that's not what happened.

If 100 fluke 87s had been compared to 100 101s across a variety of controlled tests then you might be able to make a valid conclusion about their relative "robustness".

I do think the Fluke 87V is a bit overpriced at $400 compared to its competitors but that's a different issue.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 11, 2015, 12:06:23 pm
I agree $400 is too much for an 87V. It was around $350 when this thread started. And even that was a bit steep, but ok.

So we can conclude that 101 is one hardy meter. Is it because of the lack of features that it's as robust? Perhaps.

How robust is 87V really? Is 13Kv just above its threshold of what it can take or is it just like all the other meters? We can't really say.

We know 87Vs have a reputation for robustness. And I or anyone else certainly can't ask for much more from you. You've provided great tests in all of this.

Some parts are supposed to fail (like the fuses) and this is why meters will have reinforced blast shielding in some sections. But it would take way too many resources to really measure all these variables.

Fluke doesn't seem to have creepage issues for instance (like arcing at the selector), which many of the cheap meters exhibited at far lower voltages. And perhaps some features are difficult to implement without leaving the meter exposed to transient vulnerability in a given mode.

So what I take from this is. A well designed simple bare minimum feature meter will have a better chance of surviving than a feature packed bargain. Fluke designs some good meters. But just because a meter is expensive doesn't make it more robust. The added features make it potentially more vulnerable to damage when exposed to unforeseen circumstances.

This doesn't change my mind on the 87V though. It anything it reinforces what I've been saying. A meter with a smaller set of well implemented core features is better than a feature packed meter with less well implemented essential features, because I think that more features increases the number of transient failure vectors.

Fluke 101 is just an extreme example of this. A meter with half of what I consider essential features, is practically indestructible.

Because after all both of these meters come from the same company. And I would imagine they used the same philosophy and know how to design both of these meters. One just happens to be much more capable and expensive meter.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 11, 2015, 02:15:21 pm
That said however, I would hardly call a one-off test of this sort any definitive test of a meter's robustness. 

If 100 fluke 87s had been compared to 100 101s across a variety of controlled tests then you might be able to make a valid conclusion about their relative "robustness".

I assume you did not watch the entire video as this is what I stated in the conclusion.  This testing was all funded by me, using my time to design the generator and run the tests.   There is only so much I can do as one person.   From your comment, I assume you are willing to take it to the next step.    If not, that's fine too. 

Quote
Sure, if the Fluke 87 had failed spectacularly at a relatively low voltage that might say something, but that's not what happened.

Again, as I stated in the video, it was never my intention to dial the generator back down to see where the meters fail.  I only care which was the most robust.  I will never know at what level the 87V I tested would fail at, nor did I care.   I only know it is not as robust as the 101 I tested.   

Early on I also stated I had no desire to put out enough energy to cause "spectacular" failures.   There really was no point in this.   I even did a short video showing a sustained arc using a second supply.   If you plan to run your own tests, you are free of course to play with as much energy as you like.   I welcome this and I am sure there are many of us who look forward to watching your videos.   :-+   

Yeah I since watched the whole video. (spoke too soon).

Yeah, and I missed the other posts.  :-DD   Was not my intent to call you out, again...  :-DD

I agree $400 is too much for an 87V. It was around $350 when this thread started. And even that was a bit steep, but ok.

So we can conclude that 101 is one hardy meter. Is it because of the lack of features that it's as robust? Perhaps.


I tend to agree with your first comment, the 101 is one hardy meter.   

Quote
How robust is 87V really? Is 13Kv just above its threshold of what it can take or is it just like all the other meters? We can't really say.

We know 87Vs have a reputation for robustness. And I or anyone else certainly can't ask for much more from you. You've provided great tests in all of this.

As I stated above, I agree, it would be good to know where the UNI-T 139 fails as well as the 87V.   But I was really only looking for the most robust, not a metric of how they all lined up.     We can't say that the AMPROBE I tested is just as robust as the 87V because we just don't know.  It very well could be!    The UNI-T may even hold up to higher levels!    :-DD :-DD  Funny as it sounds, we really don't know.    We do know that two 101's were tested on two generators at 12KV in all modes by two different people and it had no effect on both meters.   We know that subjecting the 87V to the same tests as my 101 caused some damage to the meter.   

Quote
Some parts are supposed to fail (like the fuses) and this is why meters will have reinforced blast shielding in some sections. But it would take way too many resources to really measure all these variables.

I was planning to run a real surge test on them but the 101 exceeded the limits of what I could do.

Quote
Fluke doesn't seem to have creepage issues for instance (like arcing at the selector), which many of the cheap meters exhibited at far lower voltages. And perhaps some features are difficult to implement without leaving the meter exposed to transient vulnerability in a given mode.

So what I take from this is. A well designed simple bare minimum feature meter will have a better chance of surviving than a feature packed bargain. Fluke designs some good meters. But just because a meter is expensive doesn't make it more robust. The added features make it potentially more vulnerable to damage when exposed to unforeseen circumstances.

You must not have watched my first Fluke.  That thing arcs everywhere at the lowest settings I tested to!    Given no constraints, anything could be built.    As I stated in the video, it would have been interesting to run the 28II which is supposed to be the more robust meter on the generator and see if it holds up. 


Quote
This doesn't change my mind on the 87V though. It anything it reinforces what I've been saying. A meter with a smaller set of well implemented core features is better than a feature packed meter with less well implemented essential features, because I think that more features increases the number of transient failure vectors.

Fluke 101 is just an extreme example of this. A meter with half of what I consider essential features, is practically indestructible.

I agree, if people want a robust meter, they should spend $50 on the 101 and not $400 on the 87V.    Keep in mind again that the Klein Tools and Gardner bender both had even less features so they should have been even more robust but they were not.    And meters like the AMPROBE with all of it's features should have failed much earlier than the Klein Tools, which it did not.   

Quote
Because after all both of these meters come from the same company. And I would imagine they used the same philosophy and know how to design both of these meters. One just happens to be much more capable and expensive meter.

The 101 is not searchable on the USA site.  It could be it was farmed out and the engineers who designed it just did a better job with the requirements they were given.   I have no idea.    AMPROBE is also built by the same company and it fell far short from the Fluke 101.   In the end it really makes no difference.   Every meter is going to be different.  The goal was to see which was the most robust.   Those who followed along watched a $50 Fluke 101 that had been beat down, over and over for several weeks, withstand what a $412 Fluke 87V could not.  Any way we want to twist the story, that was the end result.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: mtdoc on July 11, 2015, 02:56:18 pm
That said however, I would hardly call a one-off test of this sort any definitive test of a meter's robustness. 

If 100 fluke 87s had been compared to 100 101s across a variety of controlled tests then you might be able to make a valid conclusion about their relative "robustness".

I assume you did not watch the entire video as this is what I stated in the conclusion. 
Yet in several of your posts you seem to be making that claim.

Quote
This testing was all funded by me, using my time to design the generator and run the tests.   There is only so much I can do as one person.   From your comment, I assume you are willing to take it to the next step.    If not, that's fine too.

As I said, they were great videos.  Kudos. Not sure why the defensive tone. I have no interest in doing such testing myself. Is one not allowed to comment or point out limitations of a test? 

Quote
.   
Early on I also stated I had no desire to put out enough energy to cause "spectacular" failures.   There really was no point in this.
Yes, I realize that and I was not claiming otherwise.

My point was that only a failure at a lower voltage with arcing or something of danger to the user would present any meaningful knock on the 87V's  "robustness".

Look,I watched (most) of your videos and I think they're great! :-+  Don't mistake my pointing out the limitations of what conclusions can be drawn as some sort of fatal criticism. Yes, you have stated many of the limitations yourself but you also repeatedly make generalized conclusions based on the tests which I find unjustified.  I think it is very legitimate on an engineering blog to point these out for discussion. Don't take it personally.

I just don't think this test justifies making any generalized statements about relative robustness of a Fluke 101 versus a Fluke 87V. 

In the end, any test with an n=1 is just anecdotal in nature and not evidence. But it does make for fun viewing an interesting discussion.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on July 11, 2015, 02:58:54 pm
I am 100% surprised that the 87V did not survive the same treatment as the 101.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: mtdoc on July 11, 2015, 03:12:14 pm

I agree, if people want a robust meter, they should spend $50 on the 101 and not $400 on the 87V.   

But what if someone wants a robust full featured meter?   Agreed that based on your testing the Fluke 101 appears to be a very robust pocket meter. I think your testing surprised a lot of people on how robust that little meter is. But its features are limited.

As I said before, I agree that $400 is too much for an 87V , but what else with its feature set matches its build quality and accuracy?  One of the Brymens maybe?

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 11, 2015, 04:16:36 pm
Quote
I have no interest in doing such testing myself.
And why does this not surprise me??

Quote
Is one not allowed to comment or point out limitations of a test? 
Pointing out what I have already pointed out is pointless but if you feel there is a point to it pointing, point away...  :blah: :blah: :blah:

Quote
Yes, you have stated many of the limitations yourself but you also repeatedly make generalized conclusions based on the tests which I find unjustified. 

I agree, if people want a robust meter, they should spend $50 on the 101 and not $400 on the 87V.   

But what if someone wants a robust full featured meter?   Agreed that based on your testing the Fluke 101 appears to be a very robust pocket meter. I think your testing surprised a lot of people on how robust that little meter is. But its features are limited.


This must be one of my repeated generalized conclusions you mentioned.   If you are asking for a recommendation,  I don't have one.  As lightages and others have stated many times, there is more to picking a meter than just one metric.     I do agree on your comment about the 101 having limited features and will go one step further and say all handled meters have very limited features!   Hello, that's why I have more than hand held meters to play with!   Dang, you are right!  Everything I seem to post IS generalized!   :-DD   

Quote
My point was that only a failure at a lower voltage with arcing or something of danger to the user would present any meaningful knock on the 87V's  "robustness".

Do you think when the backs blow off the devices, there's no arc?   Do you think if an arc is small, it presents no risk of danger?   Do you think if an arc is small that there is no chance that it can grow?   

Again, you may want to consider there was no line voltage to sustain an arc for a reason.

There is no way I would trust my life with the 87V.  That may seem like an unfair comment to a few of you but again, as so many of you have pointed out, what is my life worth.  It sure seems like there were a few that were quick to point out that spending more money buys safety.   Well my life is worth a lot more to me than risking it with a meter that I know fails at a lower energy than a $50 meter.

I am 100% surprised that the 87V did not survive the same treatment as the 101.

We may not always see eye to eye but in this particular case I am right there beside you!!  I was floored.  But this is why we run the tests.    I would really enjoy having someone repeat a test like this with a brand new 101 and an 87V.   We have one other member with a real IEC generator.   Who knows, that 87V may just fail at 12KV, 50us FWHH.    Maybe a few of you could help defer the cost if they offered to run it.   The nice thing about going that route is then anyone could repeat this test using a standard generator.   They can also increment the voltage as they did with the 101.  If it does fail, it may provide some insight at what level.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 11, 2015, 04:29:40 pm
...
101 sure impressed, but I was also impressed by the Amprobe 510 which failed from much less of a transient than 87V. In fact your tests made me recommend it to a few people. I think it's a great little meter for someone just starting. That's the perspective I am coming from, not some spin.

Your poor experience with a 40 year old Fluke bench meter certainly stands but that's a bit apples and oranges comparison. Great progress has been made in almost every aspect of electronic design and manufacturing since then. 4-6 layer PCBs, components with built in protection, more focus on safety, CAT safety standards... the list goes on. I think back then the DMM industry was still trying to pull of a working DMM design off the ground, and they were still coming up with features we take for granted today. It's a bit unfair to paint today's products on account of shortcomings of products from 40 years ago.

Also 13Kv is nothing to sneeze at. That's quite a bit more of a transient than what all the meters that failed next to 101 were subjected to.

87V survived that same 13Kv zap in all the modes but the Ohm mode. I think that's pretty darn good. It's well beyond the CAT IV spec, which doesn't even cover wrong modes.

I think 87V did well. Not as impressive as 101 but still pretty good. I got both meters. 101 is a cool little meter, but it's not at all in the same league in terms of usability as the 87V.

I could not rely on a Fluke 101 as my main meter as it simply lacks essential features. First one being the lack of a tilting bail. But thanks to all your awesome efforts now I know  87V can safely survive 13Kv transients, provided I use the right mode  :)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: mtdoc on July 11, 2015, 04:31:23 pm
Wow Joe.  Have a beer or something....

Well said Muxr. I agree.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 11, 2015, 05:35:11 pm
Quote
Your poor experience with a 40 year old Fluke bench meter certainly stands but that's a bit apples and oranges comparison. Great progress has been made in almost every aspect of electronic design and manufacturing since then. 4-6 layer PCBs, components with built in protection, more focus on safety, CAT safety standards... the list goes on. I think back then the DMM industry was still trying to pull of a working DMM design off the ground, and they were still coming up with features we take for granted today. It's a bit unfair to paint today's products on account of shortcomings of products from 40 years ago.

Once bitten twice shy.   Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.   That first impressions are hard to erase!

101 sure impressed, but I was also impressed by the Amprobe 510 which failed from much less of a transient than 87V.

Also 13Kv is nothing to sneeze at. That's quite a bit more of a transient than what all the meters that failed next to 101 were subjected to.

87V survived that same 13Kv zap in all the modes but the Ohm mode. I think that's pretty darn good. It's well beyond the CAT IV spec, which doesn't even cover wrong modes.

I think 87V did well. Not as impressive as 101 but still pretty good. I got both meters. 101 is a cool little meter, but it's not at all in the same league in terms of usability as the 87V.

... now I know  87V can safely survive 13Kv transients, provided I use the right mode  :)


You are twisting the data which is a bad thing for people reading the posts. 
Quote
...the Amprobe 510 which failed from much less of a transient than 87V.
Of course, the AMPROBE was tested from the beginning, the 87V was not tested until the end.    The 87V was never tested at lower voltages so we do not know where it fails.    It may have failed at 2KV.  We don't know.   

You brought up the AMPROBE.  So lets consider that meter.   It made it all the way into the finals where they were tested with a 5.8KV peak,  5us FWHH, 2 ohm source.   When it failed it would still measure voltage just like the 87V.    Consider that the AMPROBE could have continued to read voltages all the way up to 13KV as well.  Again, we don't know.   I didn't care as it had failed.   

And what failed on the UNI-T UT90A?  Again, the voltages still functioned fine. 

Had I waited until the end to test the UNI-T and the AMPROBE, they too would have failed at 13KV.  That does not mean they were more robust than the other meters. 

Don't twist the data to fit your desired outcome. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 11, 2015, 06:13:58 pm
I am not "twisting any data". Fluke 87V didn't fail at 3Kv, it wasn't tested at it. But we know for sure that UT and Amprobe failed at 3Kv.

Given the experience with Fluke meters [made in this century] including the 101 I simply give it a benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on July 11, 2015, 06:34:56 pm
I am not "twisting any data". Fluke 87V didn't fail at 3Kv, it wasn't tested at it. But we know for sure that UT and Amprobe failed at 3Kv.

Given the experience with Fluke meters [made in this century] including the 101 I simply give it a benefit of the doubt.
You imply the 87V failed the surge test on ohms, this is a presumption as operational checks were not done UNTIL the end of all surge tests, so who knows when/how ohms got nuked.
The fact is OHMS was nuked and to ignore this is twisting the data.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 11, 2015, 06:53:53 pm
I am not "twisting any data". Fluke 87V didn't fail at 3Kv, it wasn't tested at it. But we know for sure that UT and Amprobe failed at 3Kv.

Given the experience with Fluke meters [made in this century] including the 101 I simply give it a benefit of the doubt.
You imply the 87V failed the surge test on ohms, this is a presumption as operational checks were not done UNTIL the end of all surge tests, so who knows when/how ohms got nuked.
The fact is OHMS was nuked and to ignore this is twisting the data.
Where did I ignore that ohms was nuked? Did I say it wasn't? Pretty sure I acknowledged it.

You seemed to have missed my point about the Ohms comment I made. It has to do with safety, let me elaborate since I understand it may not be as obvious, sorry.

Transients may happen unexpectedly. Let's say you're measuring a mains circuit and a transient nukes your voltage reading without you realizing it. You continue measuring thinking the circuit is not powered on. Can you see how dangerous this could be?

So independent of the mode the meter was in when it failed (all modes were tested), we can agree that if you're going to lose one function of a meter while dealing with high voltage circuits it is better if that function isn't related to indicating dangerous voltages. And in fact this is exactly what the CAT rating attempts to certify. As far as I know CAT doesn't deal with Ohms at all. And according to Joe's test Fluke 87V passes this aspect of it with flying colors way beyond the required rating.

As far as which mode the meter was in when the ohms got nuked we can only speculate, so there is no data to be twisted, since the meter wasn't tested between each mode.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: dadler on July 12, 2015, 11:38:28 am
There is no way I would trust my life with the 87V.  That may seem like an unfair comment to a few of you but again, as so many of you have pointed out, what is my life worth.  It sure seems like there were a few that were quick to point out that spending more money buys safety.   Well my life is worth a lot more to me than risking it with a meter that I know fails at a lower energy than a $50 meter.

This logic does not follow for me. Would you trust your life with the 87V if the 101 never existed, or you had never tested it?

How does the cost of one particular meter affect how much life-trustiness you would put in a different meter?

Would you trust your life to the Extech that you gave the testimonial about at the end-- the same one you said you wouldn't subject to the tests?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 12, 2015, 11:57:08 am
There is no way I would trust my life with the 87V.  That may seem like an unfair comment to a few of you but again, as so many of you have pointed out, what is my life worth.  It sure seems like there were a few that were quick to point out that spending more money buys safety.   Well my life is worth a lot more to me than risking it with a meter that I know fails at a lower energy than a $50 meter.

This logic does not follow for me. Would you trust your life with the 87V if the 101 never existed, or you had never tested it?
As I stated before, I would not trust any meter without personally testing it.  I also have said I would never work on 440 and that I'm not trained for this.     

Quote
How does the cost of one particular meter affect how much life-trustiness you would put in a different meter?
It doesn't.

Quote
Would you trust your life to the Extech that you gave the testimonial about at the end-- the same one you said you wouldn't subject to the tests?
At most I use it to measure 220 line CAT II stuff which I do not consider high risk.   Even that is rare for the work I do.     So to answer your question, no.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: mtdoc on July 12, 2015, 12:00:47 pm
There is no way I would trust my life with the 87V.  That may seem like an unfair comment to a few of you but again, as so many of you have pointed out, what is my life worth.  It sure seems like there were a few that were quick to point out that spending more money buys safety.   Well my life is worth a lot more to me than risking it with a meter that I know fails at a lower energy than a $50 meter.

This logic does not follow for me. Would you trust your life with the 87V if the 101 never existed, or you had never tested it?

How does the cost of one particular meter affect how much life-trustiness you would put in a different meter?

Would you trust your life to the Extech that you gave the testimonial about at the end-- the same one you said you wouldn't subject to the tests?


The 87V has a well deserved reputation for safety and accuracy based on experience of thousands of users over the span of almost 2 decades.  Nothing in his tests contradicts this and if anything confirms it, as Muxr pointed out.

Confirmation Bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) is something that we're all susceptible to.

The 87V may be overpriced, but that is an entirely different matter.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: dadler on July 12, 2015, 01:03:30 pm
There is no way I would trust my life with the 87V.  That may seem like an unfair comment to a few of you but again, as so many of you have pointed out, what is my life worth.  It sure seems like there were a few that were quick to point out that spending more money buys safety.   Well my life is worth a lot more to me than risking it with a meter that I know fails at a lower energy than a $50 meter.

This logic does not follow for me. Would you trust your life with the 87V if the 101 never existed, or you had never tested it?
As I stated before, I would not trust any meter without personally testing it.  I also have said I would never work on 440 and that I'm not trained for this.     

Quote
How does the cost of one particular meter affect how much life-trustiness you would put in a different meter?
It doesn't.

Quote
Would you trust your life to the Extech that you gave the testimonial about at the end-- the same one you said you wouldn't subject to the tests?
At most I use it to measure 220 line CAT II stuff which I do not consider high risk.   Even that is rare for the work I do.     So to answer your question, no.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I am glad you have run these tests, they are interesting--thanks for that.

I do think you are being at best imprecise and at worst quite wishy-washy with your conclusions.

As I read your words, you are essentially concluding that since the $50 fluke did not (seemingly/immediately) fail at a specific extreme test voltage, a more expensive meter that did (seemingly/immediately) fail at the same specific extreme test voltage is not safe.

If the 87V fails in some spectacularly minor way (with a test sample of one), when subjected to conditions far exceeding its ratings, I think it is not fair to conclude that it is not a safe device--That you wouldn't "trust your life with it".

Basically, I consider your argument to be a non sequitur.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on July 12, 2015, 03:28:31 pm

I do think you are being at best imprecise and at worst quite wishy-washy with your conclusions.

That's fine.  I thought the conclusions were pretty clear.  The Fluke 87V did not survive the same tests that I put the Fluke 101 through.

As I read your words, you are essentially concluding that since the $50 fluke did not (seemingly/immediately) fail at a specific extreme test voltage, a more expensive meter that did (seemingly/immediately) fail at the same specific extreme test voltage is not safe.

That's what you got from it?    I would not consider any meter safe which I thought would have been made very clear by now.   I guess three devices with their backs blown off would be considered "seemingly".

If the 87V fails in some spectacularly minor way (with a test sample of one), when subjected to conditions far exceeding its ratings, I think it is not fair to conclude that it is not a safe device--That you wouldn't "trust your life with it".  Basically, I consider your argument to be a non sequitur.

Argument?  You asked me specific questions, I provided you answers.    In the end, the Fluke 87V was damaged by a transient that the Fluke 101 had no problem with.   

I have no idea what safe is,  but yes, I certainly would not risk my life with the 87V measuring a 440 main but again I wouldn't risk it with the 101 which appears even more robust or any other meter out there.  Maybe this is the part you feel is irrelevant.   

Do I think using the 87V places me at a higher risk than the 101, yes because it failed at a test that the 101 survived but that risk is minimal for me because as I have stated, I don't typically work on systems where I am at exposed to lethal energy levels.   There is always my home made attenuator that I mentioned to limit the risk as well.   

I am also not going to spend hundreds on a meter that is not as robust as a $50 product so I can measure non-lethal circuits.  Nor will I spend hundreds on a meter that can't calculate AC+DC.     

Well, I hopefully cleared up a few things.      If I get another meter from Fluke or find another one that will pass the last test setup, I will post about it, otherwise I'm on to the next project.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: oldway on July 12, 2015, 09:54:01 pm
These tests are interesting but do not correspond with reality.

As an engineer in power electronics, what especially interests me is what happens with the multimeter when measuring a voltage like 550VDC on a 5000A DC drive and that there is an arc in the multimeter which occurs due to a transient voltage.

When there is great power in play, things go completely differently from what is seen in this test.

The simple harmless arc turns into a real explosion.

Therefore, on one hand, high voltage transients are not interesting  because they are improbable, on the other hand, it is irrelevant whether or not the meter is still functional, what matters is that the operator has not been hurt nor killed.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on July 12, 2015, 10:16:16 pm
Do I think using the 87V places me at a higher risk than the 101, yes because it failed at a test that the 101 survived

We've only seen one set of test conditions. The 101 might fail much more catastrophically than the 87V in real high-energy situations.

Bottom line: Connecting a multimeter up to a genuinely high energy device is dangerous. You need to think very carefully about how you approach it.

The best approach is not to do it at all and Waltzing up to it with a probe in either hand and the meter between your teeth isn't the way to go even if you did pay $5000 for the meter.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: oldway on July 12, 2015, 10:40:59 pm
Quote
Bottom line: Connecting a multimeter up to a genuinely high energy device is dangerous. You need to think very carefully about how you approach it.

The best approach is not to do it at all and Waltzing up to it with a probe in either hand and the meter between your teeth isn't the way to go even if you did pay $5000 for the meter.
Power electronics is not a job for everyone...You must be qualified...
If you make a mistake, you will probably never be able to make a second one !
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: hibone on July 13, 2015, 12:01:16 am
why not rising the bar?

what about Cat. rated scopes?  >:D
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: mtdoc on July 13, 2015, 02:18:38 am
These tests are interesting but do not correspond with reality.

As an engineer in power electronics, what especially interests me is what happens with the multimeter when measuring a voltage like 550VDC on a 5000A DC drive and that there is an arc in the multimeter which occurs due to a transient voltage.

When there is great power in play, things go completely differently from what is seen in this test.

The simple harmless arc turns into a real explosion.

Therefore, on one hand, high voltage transients are not interesting  because they are improbable, on the other hand, it is irrelevant whether or not the meter is still functional, what matters is that the operator has not been hurt nor killed.

And,

Quote
We've only seen one set of test conditions. The 101 might fail much more catastrophically than the 87V in real high-energy situations.

Excellent points oldway.  This is really the crux of the matter.  Concluding anything from one (non real world) test with one meter is folly.  Basing a decision on which of those two meters to use in a real world high energy situation based on this test is outright foolish IMO.

CAT ratings (if real!) are at least somewhat better.

I am not a power electronics engineer but I've done a fair bit of work on 240V mains and on high energy PV solar installations and I know which meter I would choose for those tasks.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: oldway on July 13, 2015, 03:42:03 am
Measuring ac and dc voltages up to 600V on high energy is an everyday task for power electronics engineer.

You need checking industrial power grid AC voltages, measuring batteries voltages of high power No breaks (up to 600V), field weakening threshold voltage (around 500V) of dc drive, and so on...

I must say I only trusted on Fluke multimeters to do that and I never had any problem.

But now, I am retired and I am not working with such dangerous voltages anymore.

Fluke 87V is a very good multimeter (I have also a 87IV, but I don't like it very much), but is far too expensive in Europe.
It should be sold for 200€, no more.

For this reason, if I would buy another multimeter, I would choose a Brymen 867's.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muxr on July 13, 2015, 04:50:52 am
I too think Brymen is a better deal 87V is overpriced for most people. But 87V is a better meter. The only reason I have a set of 87Vs though is because you can get them on Ebay for much less, due to their popularity.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: sreeb on July 16, 2015, 12:15:34 pm
From a safety perspective, it unclear to me how much value there is in a test that introduces a transient without the underlying mains voltage.

My understanding, dating from some companies long ago mandatory safety training, is that the serious danger is that the transient establishes an arc and the underlying voltage sustains it.  The video tape backed this up with lots of electrical road kill photos.

I never ended up working with high power and have never experienced transient induced arcing in real life though.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on July 16, 2015, 02:31:11 pm
From a safety perspective, it unclear to me how much value there is in a test that introduces a transient without the underlying mains voltage.

My understanding, dating from some companies long ago mandatory safety training, is that the serious danger is that the transient establishes an arc and the underlying voltage sustains it.  The video tape backed this up with lots of electrical road kill photos.

I never ended up working with high power and have never experienced transient induced arcing in real life though.
Welcome to the forum.

There has been much discussion on Joe's thread and techniques but it all comes down to tests that satisfy Joe, based on his past and overall exerience with DMMs so that HE is happy to use a particular brand/model.
The real outcome is a new CAT standard, Joes standard, a standard that means more to him than anyone else.

CAT joeqsmith  :-+


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on July 17, 2015, 03:58:36 am
Its a bit late but I hadn't the time until now to read in detail, but I suspect Fluke designs its DMM to far exceed IEC impulse test voltages to allow margin for error in production, be it component quality, to assembly.  We should consider that when producing a batch of devices, a range of performance can be expected due to parts and construction tolerances, but if the Fluke design criteria far exceeds required IEC criteria, then we can expect nearly if not all production to pass IEC criteria, with individual devices being more or less robust than a sibling. 

In the JQS video, the 87V malfunctions in ohms at 13kV, but that impulse is still above its 8kV rating and other functions appear normal.  Alas, there was no function test at under 13kV.  The Fluke educational video posted earlier in this thread shows an 87V dying at 17kV in volts mode, again far above the IEC requirement, but they did not show how well it functioned between each kV impulse test.

I think the clearest take home message is the lowly entry level Fluke 101 DMM, which appears to have only CE Fluke safety certification, no 3rd party safety certification,  is likely to take surge's well, and likely meets CAT III 600V criteria.  Chances are the 101 was designed like other Fluke DMMs, to survive far over the required IEC surge voltage.

That prompted me to search if indeed the 101 and other non-sold in the US Fluke meters have had 3rd party testing, as I noticed some 101 have a CSA mark, others do not. I found the CSA listing for the 101 and several other Fluke meters not marked CSA, which means these Flukes were tested to a point independently.  The devices made it far enough in the certification processes [safety issues] to receive a listing.  Why Fluke doesn't mark them after they've been granted a listing can be due to many speculative reasons, e.g. not paying recurring fees to keep production costs low, not completing less critical items in the CSA procedures, etc.,



I expect low.  But we can't know for sure unless we try a surge test and demonstrate it, then its not just an educated guess.  Many things can change over time and cause problems in new DMMs versus prior runs of the same model.  A test of just one meter can be criticized, but its better than nothing.

This is one reason in the past, say in the US military, samples of a procurement were tested per batch by independent military labs to insure they live up to their specification, but I don't know if they still do this.

The 87V is a defacto standard in that class DMM, so these tests will attract attention from a lot of professionals, particularly if it fails  :o
What are the chances of failure?  :-//


This is an excellent point.   I was very happy when another member took it upon themselves to run similar tests on the 101 (Well, that is until I stepped things for that last round  :-DD).  I would like to see a second 87V tested as well just so we have two data points.     Even then, that's too small of a sample size.     I'm sure Fluke already has the answer as that video made it sound like they test every design to failure. 
From what I understand from all of the posts I have read about the amount of money Fluke has invested in making their designs robust, and the 87V being a very popular meter and how long they have had to improve their designs, and again we are talking about it just doing as well as the lowest cost meter Fluke offers.  It doesn't even have to exceed it!   I assume the chances of a failure are very low.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on July 19, 2015, 03:49:51 am
As clarification, IIRC, a transient in single phase mains voltage can propagate into an arc flash if the transient can ionizes the surrounding medium enough to reduce the impedance to allow the mains voltage to conduct.  This is were creepage, clearances and pollution degree ratings matter now, too. 

The IEC transient test is very similar as JQS demonstrates, 0V to kV and later 0 to -kV.  Its not the entire CAT test, but a key part of it. 

Quote from:  link=topic=48998.msg711016#msg711016 date=1437012934
From a safety perspective, it unclear to me how much value there is in a test that introduces a transient without the underlying mains voltage.

My understanding, dating from some companies long ago mandatory safety training, is that the serious danger is that the transient establishes an arc and the underlying voltage sustains it.  The video tape backed this up with lots of electrical road kill photos.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 04, 2015, 11:22:06 am
Many of you are aware that TechnologyCatalyst or 5ky, purchased several handheld meters out of his own pocket in order to run another $50 shootout.    The thread may be found here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-$50-multimeter-shootout-15-dmms-compared/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-$50-multimeter-shootout-15-dmms-compared/)  His Youtube channel  may be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYVMnw_W7-Rq-yJk80vprug/videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYVMnw_W7-Rq-yJk80vprug/videos)

One of the things that was brought up was testing these meters with some sort of electrical transient.   5ky has graciously accepted my offer to run them however with a slight twist.   

After running the first set of meters and now knowing roughly how they fail and what sort of energy is needed, I plan to start over from scratch and build a new transient generator.   The reason for the new generator is simple.  It will be programmable and allow me to automate some of the testing.   This will allow me to repeat tests and hopefully not spend near the time.  The last time, the UNI-T came in late from China and was just throne  into the mix and was damaged beyond repair.   I never knew just how poor of a design it was compared with the other meters.   The same for the Fluke 87V.   It would have been nice to know just where it failed at.     

Don't expect to see and covers blowing off the meters.   New generator does not mean more energy and 20J does not do the same damage as a KJ.   Like before, I plan to keep things at levels just high enough to stress the meters input protection circuits.   So if you are looking for a lot of fire and exploding parts, look else where.   I will keep the old generator just in case one of 5ky's meters does so well I think it could pass that test.       

I purchased a new Brymen BM869s as my basic home meter (huge step up for me).   A few members have asked about how robust this meter is.   My plan is to put this meter along with the 101 into the batch.   

5ky and I have not yet spoke.  I have a lot of work to do before I will be ready.    I may do some quick videos as I start to make some progress. 

In the mean time, here is an old 80's article on surge testing to kick things off ....
http://pml.nist.gov/spd-anthology/files/Dont_kid-kill.pdf (http://pml.nist.gov/spd-anthology/files/Dont_kid-kill.pdf)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 01:09:59 pm
No rush, the meters are all in a plastic tote awaiting your word  :-+
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 07, 2015, 12:06:52 am
Video describing the new transient generator and initial testing of the power stages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wD7Q1N1XY4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wD7Q1N1XY4)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 08, 2015, 01:37:20 am
Thinking about the AC wall socket test Dave shows during some of his meter videos....

Originally I had a 2M resistor in series with the output that I injected a voltage on to see if the meter was working.   Often, I had an AC wavefrom (wall transformer) in series with a DC supply so I could check both AC and DC modes without changing the setup.

With this test jig, I was thinking to have some sort of higher power bias that could substitute for the AC wall socket test Dave shows.    I had thought about just using a transformer but I loose the DC.   In the last video, this is why I showed the rectified signal.     

I know when I was testing with my 1KV high voltage supply (good for about 1mA) it was not enough current to overcome the protection circuits in the meters.    This is why I tested using the antique Drake radio's plate supply.  This is good for 300mA average.   None of the meters I looked at presented enough load to make that supply droop.     

Can't see making an arbitrary generator that can supply KVs at 100's of mA just to stress some meters....   So leaning towards a fixed transformer with rectifier like I showed.


 :blah: :blah: :blah:
For those crappy meters that actually get damaged when connected to the 220 line,  how much current was actually required to get them to fail?   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 08, 2015, 10:11:29 am
Have the Teflon spacers installed now and finally put a probe on it.   5.5KV pulse from new generator into an open.    110us FWHH can be set shorter.     Seemed to work fine down to 600 volts.   Very repeatable.   Ran into a couple of snags.  Noticed the new Brymen BM869s can't check the high voltage diodes I am using.   Is 14 volts drop too much to ask?  :-DD   The other problem is the relay I am using to trigger the generator welded the contacts after maybe 100 cycles.     Some good progress.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 09, 2015, 01:59:30 pm
Relay problem is solved.  Also after damaging the voltage sense, added protection for the amplifier.   Output stage now seems bullet proof.

I now have several damaged 25W bulbs.  This may not seem like a big deal, but while the voltage is lower than the old generator, it will put out roughly the same energy.  More than double what I damaged every meter I tested, except for that Fluke 101.    It will be very interesting to see how this new batch holds up..... 

Made up the test cable for it.   Attached picture compares new one with the original and how it fits to the Brymen.    Want to make sure that we get all that energy into the meter.....

Have a small isolation transformer on order now.   Because I have never actually seen a meter fail this outlet test,  I plan to design the system to handle
500mA.   Plan to rectify the AC to get my DC and AC bias when running the transient tests.  Will have a way to turn off this supply. 

The last major part is the controller for it.  Watching Dave's last video on the old Fluke, I was thinking to use an MC6801.   Another option I am thinking about is to run the thing headless and just use a PC with Labview.     
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Vgkid on September 09, 2015, 03:15:30 pm
Looking firward to more tests.
 :-BROKE  :bullshit:  >:D
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 05:43:06 pm
The last major part is the controller for it.  Watching Dave's last video on the old Fluke, I was thinking to use an MC6801.   Another option I am thinking about is to run the thing headless and just use a PC with Labview.   

Not sure what you mean by "use an MC6801" - build your own microcontroller?

These days almost everything is done with Arduinos.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 09, 2015, 09:46:35 pm
The last major part is the controller for it.  Watching Dave's last video on the old Fluke, I was thinking to use an MC6801.   Another option I am thinking about is to run the thing headless and just use a PC with Labview.   

Not sure what you mean by "use an MC6801" - build your own microcontroller?

These days almost everything is done with Arduinos.

The Fluke used an old Hitachi 63xx.   They had an OTP 6301 for a while.  I think there was a lawsuit over it.   Being a bit of a nostalgic buff, it may be fun to wire wrap one last board.   Maybe put a GAL on there.  :-DD   

The 6801 is a microcontroller.  No USB, CAN, Ethernet, FLASH, ADC, DAC, EEPROM.....     Does have some digital ports, serial port and PWM.    :-DD    There was talk of contest using a 1K device.   Maybe this will be my entry.   :-DD
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 11, 2015, 08:37:52 am
Made some progress on the new generator.   I cut and squared the parts to make the case.   These are 1/4 inch thick plate aluminum (in case she blows up!!).   I'll machine the front and back once I sort out the controller for it.    The Brymen does not appear all that concerned yet.....
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 11, 2015, 11:11:55 am
Unopened tube of Motorola MC68701CLs with quality guaranteed by Cristine.   



Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 11, 2015, 11:45:23 am
The original Motorola parts were typically masked at the factory.   Hitachi came out with their clone which was CMOS and they had an OTP version. 

Second picture shows my homemade programmer  for the Motorola parts.   This was the 3rd programmer I had made.   Basically is emulates a SEEQ 2816AH device.  Has a dual ported Cypress part and a Lattice GAL for the logic.   Put you 68701 in the socket and hit the switch.   LCD

The transient generator does not need too many features.  Maybe a handful of switch inputs, couple of 8-bit ADC channels,  a few digital outputs a DAC and an LCD.   Maybe a little EEPROM to store some settings.   Nothing the most basic of PIC parts would have.    This transient generator needs something a little more classic....  :-DD

Time to see if the tools will still run.... 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 11, 2015, 12:25:17 pm
Dang tools will run without DOSBOX.   

Hunting in my box of old displays, most are 16X2.  The largest one I had was damaged.   The one in the back I think is an old plasma unit.   I remember these looked pretty nice but it's way too large.    When the unit is running, I would like to have everything displayed on a single menu.   Getting it all to fit in 32 characters is going to be very cryptic.     Modern technology has spoiled me....

More searching in the junk pile and I uncovered an old Noritake VFD which will be perfect for this project.

Time to wire up something.       

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 12, 2015, 02:38:36 pm
Once I tried to talk to some hardware, Windows helped me out.     :--   Then DOSBOX saved the day.   :-+   

I now have a 6801 talking with the display so I went ahead and ordered the push buttons.    All the hardware is now on order to finish it.   It's starting to come together but still thinking about 2-3 weeks out before I will try it out on a meter....       
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on September 12, 2015, 04:16:44 pm
I love me some dosbox.   :-+

I'm digging the retro components.  This is going to be a slick build!
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 13, 2015, 09:24:09 am
Spent the day working some more on the wire wrapping and relearning the 6801 instruction set.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on September 13, 2015, 09:28:34 am
I am impressed. I haven't touched wire wrap since 1985?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on September 13, 2015, 09:45:22 am
Spent the day working some more on the wire wrapping and relearning the 6801 instruction set.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/?action=dlattach;attach=170892)
Nice rats nest.  :-+
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 13, 2015, 10:50:36 am
I wasn't sure as to the best place to leave these pictures so I will just plonk them here for now, found the listing on ebay au and this meter does have something about it that appeals, the overall look seems familiar and possibly the enhanced safety aspect after all if you cant plug in your probes then it's about as safe as it gets.

On the other hand if people that are unfamiliar with multimeter operations and procedures are in some way guided by the input jack shield as to the correct placement of the leads and that shield fails to work as intended as seen in the picture then they are better off without it.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 13, 2015, 03:33:21 pm
Sold my Ziftel (??) Slit wrap gun many years ago.   Would have made this job easier.    I think the wire wrapping is done as long as I don't add any more features.   :-DD    The basic software is now all in place and I have checked the hardware out.     

The biggest problem I see is that my basic code now takes up 2263 bytes and the MC68701CL only has 2048.   I would guess it's about 80% done and I was thinking to add a current probe with some sort of auto shutdown as well.   It's going to be tight!

Shown reading the high voltage input along with my very safe Weston meter and 500A shunt.





Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 14, 2015, 10:18:13 am
Recessed the front cover to give it a bezel look.   Drilled and tapped the holes so I could assemble it and start thinking about how I want to start mounting parts inside once they all get here.   Its a fair bit larger than the original generator and is going to be fairly packed. 


   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on September 15, 2015, 02:42:47 pm
That's going to be quite a bit larger than your old rig.  Did you make that new case?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 15, 2015, 07:48:06 pm
That's going to be quite a bit larger than your old rig.  Did you make that new case?

I looked into buying a case but yes, I am making the case for it from scratch.  The rest of the parts should be here tomorrow.   I hope to have the whole system assembled next weekend.   Then it's just finishing the code for it, make the cover for the case and figure out how I am going to letter it. 

Won't be much longer.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 17, 2015, 09:49:49 am
Remember ISP Expert and CUPL?   I am turning the hands of time back further to PALASM.   :scared:   Now where is that tube of 22V10's.....

I wound the current sense and tried it out.  Looks pretty good.   Not sure if is going to do anything to help the testing.  Hard to believe a meter would actually fail in ohms mode (or any mode) when stuck across the mains.  We will see. 

I have been working on the code and am now very close with 27 bytes left over.  2K will force you to have to think.   I just need to get the logic in there to run the tests and then start debugging. 

To top it off, the last of the parts arrived today.   The little step-up transformer looks pretty good.   I'll make a second video once I get things mounted in the case.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 17, 2015, 11:17:27 am
PALASM sort of works in a DOSBOX.  The menus seem to screw up but it will compile.    Found a tube of PALs and one GAL.   Was able to get the old parallel port programmer working under Windows.   All that for a few FFs.  One more thing done.   




Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 21, 2015, 02:41:09 am
Retro Porn. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yIKw0YGpHk
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yIKw0YGpHk)

Maybe teak walnut or a nice cherry....   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on September 21, 2015, 06:00:52 am
Man you're putting some work into this thing and it shows!  :-+
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 21, 2015, 02:24:28 pm
Thank you sir.      I made the mounts and plastic spacers for the HV section today and wired it in to try it.  First hit, the CPU reset.  :palm:   A few changes to the grounding seems to have taken care of that.   Captured several transients with the DSO and its very repeatable.    Another week and it should be ready for a trial run.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on September 21, 2015, 02:30:47 pm
Impressive work.  :-+
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 22, 2015, 03:25:34 am
Impressive work.  :-+

Thanks!   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 23, 2015, 01:56:03 pm
More retro porn...

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: fpliuzzi on September 23, 2015, 02:36:37 pm
Wow... you've created a real stunner there - literally and figuratively. Looking forward to seeing this beauty in action.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 23, 2015, 10:30:42 pm
 
Wow... you've created a real stunner there - literally and figuratively. Looking forward to seeing this beauty in action.

 :-DD

Thanks.  It's a pretty big step up from the first generators.   

I plan to make one last video showing it in operation before I start running 5ky's meters.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on September 24, 2015, 01:52:17 am
what is the case? Not the wood part but the body. It looks REALLY nice.

Edit: The WHOLE thing looks really nice, I can't wait to see it destroy some meters.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 24, 2015, 03:25:49 am
what is the case? Not the wood part but the body. It looks REALLY nice.

Edit: The WHOLE thing looks really nice, I can't wait to see it destroy some meters.

Thanks.  If you look back a page or so, you will see some pictures as I was making the case.  It is 1/4" thick plate aluminum.  After I had machined the face plate, I buffed it.   

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 25, 2015, 07:51:04 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJTJJodEuyA
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJTJJodEuyA)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 25, 2015, 10:13:57 pm
Making that last video I discovered a small design flaw in my code.   If you put out say a 5KV pulse, then aborted the run, then set the generator to say 1KV, the capacitors may have been charged anywhere from 0 to 5KV.   I had assumed that once the trigger threshold was met,  send out a pulse.    I had also wanted to add another feature anyway so the generator came back apart.     Now it checks to make sure the bank has discharged below the trigger before turning on the high voltage.   

While the cover was off, I gave it a light sanding with some 600, then another coat of clear.   


I have now been in contact with 5ky about his meters from the shootout he did.   Sounds like they will arrive next week.   We all owe him a big thanks for buying these meters out of pocket, taking the time to do the reviews, then be willing to have them destroyed!   :-+  :-+   His channel is here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYVMnw_W7-Rq-yJk80vprug/videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYVMnw_W7-Rq-yJk80vprug/videos)

Will it come down to the AMPROBE 530 and the Fluke 107???     And how does my new Brymen BM869s fit in there?   Stay tuned...... :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on September 26, 2015, 06:41:03 am
what is the case? Not the wood part but the body. It looks REALLY nice.

Edit: The WHOLE thing looks really nice, I can't wait to see it destroy some meters.

Thanks.  If you look back a page or so, you will see some pictures as I was making the case.  It is 1/4" thick plate aluminum.  After I had machined the face plate, I buffed it.

Nice work, would make a really nice design for a SFF PC case. Ever since my old CoolerMaster ATCS case that I had, I have loved thick aluminum front panels. I was hoping that it was some commercially available case. Oh well, at some point maybe I will make my own.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 27, 2015, 03:03:23 am
Thanks.   I looked at buying a case but they were so expensive if you wanted anything a little fancy. 

Last night, while testing the generator, I was able to damage one of the FETs.   I added some additional protection for these parts, added some copper foil for a better ground plane on the wire-wrap board and added another Ferrite bead.    Tried several more times to get the unit to fail or see if I could find any more software bugs.  It's looking very solid.   

I picked up a Cen-Tech 90899 7 function meter from Harbor Freight and was planning to use it for a baseline.   When I ran the last meter like this, it died on the first hit and I wanted to make sure I could dial things down far enough were it would survive.     I took it apart and the PCB layout has changed.   They have a small fuse for the low current settings.   The mA is shared with the volt ohm input so I removed the fuse and did a quick functional test on it.   I then connected the thing  to the generator, turned on the AC to the meter, no problems.   Then I turned the knob from AC 750 with the power on and bang....   Of course, I continued to rotate the knob with more bangs and pops.  The generator detected the over current and turned off.   The control IC appears to still function somewhat.   There are a few resistors that failed.       

This is the first meter I have ever seen fail this test.   So it looks like the 500mA step-up transformer will do nicely.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 27, 2015, 10:37:46 am
Looked like P2 and 5R4 were also damaged.  Did a quick swap but appears the IC was damaged too.   

Plugged it back in and removed the IC's encapsulation with one hit. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on September 27, 2015, 02:17:12 pm
I'm liking the damage I see. Lets hope for more kaboom

Sent from my LG-ls990 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on September 29, 2015, 01:32:39 pm
5ky's meters are on there way and should arrive this week. 

I'm liking the damage I see. Lets hope for more kaboom

My wife saw it run for the first time tonight on that cheap Harbor Freight meter.   Gave it a 5 nice 700V hits.   It's very quite except for the beep at the end of the test.  She was not impressed but thought the case looked nice.   Then I turned it up to kill all meters mode........... CRACK!!!!  She jumped. I jumped.   I think we have the kaboom thing down.  :-DD

After killing the HF meter (which was not my intent)  I removed the protection I had added to the UNI-T UT90.   This meter made it into the final 4 before the first failure with it.   It's basically stock now except my wire trace repair may hold up a little longer.   Because the waveform is different with the new generator, this should give us some idea how the new meters compare with the old.   

Rather than using the clamp to hold the meters, I bent up a holder which is then grounded to the generator.   I did this to see if any of the cases would arc through.   Doubtful.

My plan is to do a quick functional check of the meters and replace any of the blown fuses.   
Static test them all with the grill starter
Run them at their rated DC input voltage. 
Run them off the rectified AC signal (that killed the HF meter) in all of the modes.
The Brymen BM869s will be put through these same tests along with them.   The UNI-T UT90 and Fluke 101 already have survived these tests and will not be retested.   

The meters that make it through this basic testing with no damage (other than blown fuses) will get ran with the new generator.   The Fluke 101, UNI-T and the Brymen will be tested with them as well.     

When I tested the first meters, I used a source of 50, 14 a 2 ohms.  This time, I plan to keep the source at 2 ohms throughout the entire test. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 01, 2015, 12:17:37 pm
Just a quick update.   5ky's meters arrived today in good shape.    Thanks again for sending these.   I think we will learn a lot from them. 

Of the 18 meters I started with, 4 are all ready damaged and of those, one will no longer power up.    :palm:     It's good to weed out those meters that are on par with Harbor Freight's free meters.   

My bet is the Fluke 107, AMPROBE AM530 are going to be there to the end, along with my Brymen BM869s.   

Stay tuned for the first of many videos.......
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 01, 2015, 03:02:21 pm
I didn't bother packing them very well, but I figured they each survived three drops from 1 meter, so light padding would probably suffice.  The ones with the three input jacks instead of three are all of the ones with blown mA range fuses.

Let the games begin!  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 02, 2015, 12:07:04 pm
No problems at all with shipping. 

I have the first video edited and will post it in the next day after I review it. 

The second round did not go as planned at all.   I started out using the UT90A thinking if that passed surely all of the other meters would pass and we could go on from there.   What happened was five more meters were damaged.   Meters I thought would have had no trouble died.  Meters I thought for sure would fail earlier lived.    :palm:

The generator is working out very well.   The testing is going much faster. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 03, 2015, 08:57:53 am
Round 1 results showing all of the meters getting the grill starter treatment, then subjected to a KV of DC in the DC range.  Then selecting all of the modes with rectified 220VAC applied.    Sorry for you people who want to see some sparks.   I'll see if I can do something about that in the next video.... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohk2dqsq7dM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohk2dqsq7dM)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 03, 2015, 11:15:07 am
Awesome!  Not super surprised the uni-t's met their fate.  It also goes to show how crap those EX series Extechs are.  If I buy another, it'll be the E series (the rebranded Brymens).   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 03, 2015, 11:16:03 am
Also, I'm really surprised that Fluke 107 is a different size from the 101.  I figured they'd reuse the same chassis to save costs, but I guess not!  That's fluke for ya: they don't cut costs to please their accountants.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 03, 2015, 11:15:50 pm
Whoah! Great magic trick at 0:52!

Can you do it backwards - turn Uni-Ts into flukes?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 04, 2015, 07:35:00 am
After that 87V was damaged during my initial testing,  I would like to make a video of nothing but Fluke meters to see how much their protection varies.   For now, I think just seeing how 5ky's 107 holds up compared with the 101 will be interesting.   I am just expecting the 107 will survive everything the 101 does, but I thought that about the 87V too, but now know better.   

Awesome!  Not super surprised the uni-t's met their fate.  It also goes to show how crap those EX series Extechs are.  If I buy another, it'll be the E series (the rebranded Brymens).   :popcorn:

You have too many meters as it is!!   :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD  I am trying my best to thin your heard! >:D

Hope you enjoy it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YG6FjEkyXs
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YG6FjEkyXs)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 04, 2015, 07:40:18 am
Also, I'm really surprised that Fluke 107 is a different size from the 101.  I figured they'd reuse the same chassis to save costs, but I guess not!  That's fluke for ya: they don't cut costs to please their accountants.
Adding amps measurement means it needs fuses inside.

And maybe bigger track gaps ... although that wouldn't make it much bigger.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 04, 2015, 11:52:13 am
From the pictures I have seen of the 101 and 107, they don't look at all the same.   One look at the 101 and you can understand why it can survive the tests I have put it through.   

Again, this was a VERY good call on your part.   I doubt I would have bought this meter had you not recommended it.  I wonder if any of the new meters can survive this same amount of punishment.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 04, 2015, 02:55:17 pm
From the pictures I have seen of the 101 and 107, they don't look at all the same.   One look at the 101 and you can understand why it can survive the tests I have put it through.
Yep. The 101 obviously has much more input protection. It will be interesting to see if the 107 survives as well as the 101.


Again, this was a VERY good call on your part.   I doubt I would have bought this meter had you not recommended it.
Aw, it was nuthin'  :-[

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 04, 2015, 03:21:12 pm
I'm curious to see how the Amprobe holds up because Uni-T is the OEM of that specific model.  (take it apart along-side one of the Uni-T and you'll see a lot of similarities)  I assume Amprobe has them made to order so I'd imagine sufficient input protection is added.  We'll find out soon enough!

It was interesting to see that all of the CEM OEM ones (extech, circuit-test, southwire) all took damage.

How many are left completely unscathed now, seven or so?  They're dropping like flies  :-DD
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 05, 2015, 02:26:03 am
I think you will be very surprised by what has survived.  Of the eighteen I started with only five are unscathed.   Consider the new generator is running about 30% capacity,  I'm sure I can narrow it down. 

I am seeing a lot of what I call 87V damage where they are still usable.   My plan is to run these separately.     

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWClLK587v0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWClLK587v0)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 05, 2015, 03:03:31 am
Second half of the 1.5KV tests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIDc91JeuAY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIDc91JeuAY)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 05, 2015, 06:08:14 am
Excellent!  I'm rooting for that radioshack one.  You can get it for $25 on ebay/amazon brand new.  If it weren't for its pathetic 100 uF max capacitance range, it would be a really good all around meter WITH true RMS.  I'm actually quite surprised it's gone this far.

I have a feeling that 107 will go the distance like your 101 did.   :popcorn:

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on October 05, 2015, 10:25:22 am
The unpopulated spots on the UT61E make me wonder how the European TUV tested version of the UT61E handles. It has those spots fully populated and has beefed up fuses if I remember correctly.

Sent from my LG-ls990 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 05, 2015, 12:49:20 pm
joeqsmith:

I am rather impressed at the work and time you have put into these tests. Thank you very much for the time and effort, and cost! These tests certainly are weeding out meters that can't survive normal abuse, and not even abuse in some cases. Like I keep trying to tell people, the UT61E was capable of dying merely from walking around, and your tests kind of demonstrate that.

I am glad you like the BM869S so much and I hope it ends up at the end as one of the survivors.

5ky:

Thanks for throwing your money into the mix to get destroyed. This is a great service to all to learn what really is worth buying.

These tests certainly will demonstrate to people why they should consider spending money on good meters and not junk. From the tests so far, some meters will appear to be working right in some function but will be way off in other ways. This is a dangerous condition.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 05, 2015, 02:16:20 pm
Excellent!  I'm rooting for that radioshack one.  You can get it for $25 on ebay/amazon brand new.  If it weren't for its pathetic 100 uF max capacitance range, it would be a really good all around meter WITH true RMS.  I'm actually quite surprised it's gone this far.

I have a feeling that 107 will go the distance like your 101 did.   :popcorn:

 :popcorn:

If I were to pick from the meters you purchased in this group, it would be that one meter that you kept that I said I would not test even if you sent it.   :-DD

The unpopulated spots on the UT61E make me wonder how the European TUV tested version of the UT61E handles. It has those spots fully populated and has beefed up fuses if I remember correctly.

Really??!!

joeqsmith:

I am rather impressed at the work and time you have put into these tests. Thank you very much for the time and effort, and cost! These tests certainly are weeding out meters that can't survive normal abuse, and not even abuse in some cases. Like I keep trying to tell people, the UT61E was capable of dying merely from walking around, and your tests kind of demonstrate that.

I am glad you like the BM869S so much and I hope it ends up at the end as one of the survivors.

5ky:

Thanks for throwing your money into the mix to get destroyed. This is a great service to all to learn what really is worth buying.

These tests certainly will demonstrate to people why they should consider spending money on good meters and not junk. From the tests so far, some meters will appear to be working right in some function but will be way off in other ways. This is a dangerous condition.

I hope that the videos I made showing the generator and talking about the amount of energy I am using were helpful to you and others as well.   

It may have been interesting to have another UNI-T 139C in this mix as well just to see how it would do against the 61s.     

The only bad thing about putting the Brymen through all of these tests is it didn't have an 87V sitting there with it.   However, I do have a way to reproduce these tests now and have everything documented as to what I did.  So, nothing says that if an 87V happens to show up that it wouldn't get some special treatment.    :-DD

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2015, 08:36:17 pm
I have a feeling that 107 will go the distance like your 101 did.   :popcorn:
The 101 appears to have more input protection:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-101-multimeter-teardown/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-101-multimeter-teardown/)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-first-impression-of-the-fluke-107-multimeter/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-first-impression-of-the-fluke-107-multimeter/)

Most of the big components look identical but the 101 has an extra chain of seven resistors on the input. I can't see that in the 107.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/?action=dlattach;attach=174497;image)


I'm in the camp that damaged meter is a as-good-as-dead meter. If you know for a fact that some of the ranges are broken then how far can you trust the other ranges?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 05, 2015, 09:04:54 pm
That chain forms the 10MOhm impedance on the voltage range.
7x 1.433MOhm precision resistor. The 107 must have it too, probably on the other side of the PCB.
Protection is the same on both (1 fusible resistor, 1 PTC and 2 MOVs). 101 may have an advantage on wider trace separation.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2015, 09:15:44 pm
That chain forms the 10MOhm impedance on the voltage range.
7x 1.433MOhm precision resistor. The 107 must have it too, probably on the other side of the PCB.

Yep, I wondered if it has it them the other side of the PCB...can't find a photo though. Anybody have one they can open up and take a peek?


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 06, 2015, 12:12:55 am
I'm in the camp that damaged meter is a as-good-as-dead meter. If you know for a fact that some of the ranges are broken then how far can you trust the other ranges?

I'm not following--did the 107 already take damage or something?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 06, 2015, 12:19:20 am
That chain forms the 10MOhm impedance on the voltage range.
7x 1.433MOhm precision resistor. The 107 must have it too, probably on the other side of the PCB.

Yep, I wondered if it has it them the other side of the PCB...can't find a photo though. Anybody have one they can open up and take a peek?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2015, 12:23:27 am
I'm in the camp that damaged meter is a as-good-as-dead meter. If you know for a fact that some of the ranges are broken then how far can you trust the other ranges?

I'm not following--did the 107 already take damage or something?

No...just talking in general about the half-dead ones.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2015, 12:38:27 am
The 107 must have it too, probably on the other side of the PCB.
Yep, I wondered if it has it them the other side of the PCB...can't find a photo though.
...pic of 107
:-+

OK, so the 107 is going to survive as well! We'll have a joint winner!!

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 06, 2015, 03:12:49 am
Yeah, I concur.  Injured is as good as dead.

That being said, is there a difference between keeping the user safe and dying in the process, versus keeping the user safe AND surviving the incident?  I feel like one is safety, and the other is safety AND robustness. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 06, 2015, 04:13:38 am
I would prefer that if a meter is going to fail, it fails completely and is obvious that it has failed. A situation where the meter still appears to work on some function but shows incorrect values on another or another range is just asking for someone to get hurt or for damage to occur. This is why it is always a good idea to have two reliable meters, and check them against each other regularly. If you are going to measure something potentially hazardous then you should always cross check before trusting the reading.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 06, 2015, 10:43:25 am
Very few of the meters tested have failed 100% when they were damaged.   I am looking at seven of them now that have one or more features that still work correctly (but I doubt for much longer). 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 06, 2015, 11:46:40 am
I stand corrected.  There are only three meters with partial damage...  >:D
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on October 06, 2015, 12:42:28 pm
I stand corrected.  There are only three meters with partial damage...  >:D
I'm very sure you will fix that.  >:D
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 06, 2015, 03:35:42 pm
I put together the next video showing the meters being ran at 2KV, 100us FWHH, 1us rise, 2 ohm source.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gJ161tTBiI&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gJ161tTBiI&feature=youtu.be)


While the UNI-T UT90A was damaged during testing,  I pulled it apart and found my repaired trace was damaged but no other parts were taken out.  I repaired this area again.  Being it is the only meter that I has played Van Halen's Eruption, I figured I owed it one last life.   
     



Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 07, 2015, 11:45:14 am
The 87V clones are tested at 2.5KV.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uIA6KIuH0k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uIA6KIuH0k)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 07, 2015, 12:16:43 pm
The remaining working meters are tested at 2.5KV 100us FWHH 1us rise 2 ohm source.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=friMJg9E7MY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=friMJg9E7MY)

The next video will show testing at 3 and 4KV.     
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 08, 2015, 04:00:19 am
3 and 4KV testing...

This video is VERY long and there is not a lot of action (none).  You have been warned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgwmCG9z9zw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgwmCG9z9zw)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 08, 2015, 08:50:13 am
The damaged meters are ran at 4KV...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT1a3LaKCkI&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT1a3LaKCkI&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Vgkid on October 08, 2015, 09:29:04 am
That was entertaining.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 08, 2015, 10:18:34 am
That was entertaining.

I tried to make up for what could very well be the most boring YouTube video ever created.   :-DD   

I knew if I didn't post that test data, someone would ask about why I skipped over it.   For those who have not watched that long 45 minutes of nothingness, skip to the last 2 minutes and you will know all you need to or just watch the last video.

Next up, 5KV.      5ky asked I return any of the working meters when I was done.  I am trying my best to save on shipping costs!

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on October 08, 2015, 10:28:34 am
5ky asked I return any of the working meters when I was done.  I am trying my best to save on shipping costs!
:-DD
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 08, 2015, 01:46:03 pm
The new generator is running full tilt tonight.  All the stops are off.   This test will be much harder for the meters to survive than the transient used during the finals between the Fluke 101 and the AMPROBE AM-510.    IMO, any meter that passes this is pretty robust.   

If anything does survive, that meter/s will then be ran on the original generator.  Only one meter has survived on that test fixture and that's the Fluke 101.  Even Fluke's own 87V could not survive that test.   

....

First meter has been tested and actually PASSED!!!!  We have at least one meter that has a chance to take on the 13KV waveform!!!
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Vgkid on October 08, 2015, 02:14:16 pm
Looking forward to a possible video.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 09, 2015, 04:06:30 am
I expect to make three more videos.   One for 5KV, one for 6KV and then the finals using the original transient generator.   

With the Fluke 101 need to share the spotlight?  Will it just be the two Flukes or does the 101 really only pass because of it's lack of a current input?    Many have asked why buy a Fluke if others are just as good.   We know Flukes own 87V could not survive the final test.   What will people think if the Radio Shack meter survives what the 87V can't?   And what about the Brymen??   Am I really going to put my own $230 Brymen meter on this generator just to see if it passes a test where the 87V failed?   

 :popcorn:

Get your popcorn and soda's because we are nearing the end....
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on October 09, 2015, 05:56:11 am
I expect to make three more videos.   One for 5KV, one for 6KV and then the finals using the original transient generator.   
:clap:  >:D

Quote
What will people think if the Radio Shack meter survives what the 87V can't?
:wtf:  :o


Quote
And what about the Brymen??   Am I really going to put my own $230 Brymen meter on this generator just to see if it passes a test where the 87V failed?   
The cost of the Brymen and the Fluke 87V is miniscule compared to the time and effort you have put into this project thus far and because of that I'd be shocked if you didn't give them a taste of the evil lady. >:D

Do it Joe, do it.  :box:
 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: marber on October 09, 2015, 07:54:41 am
With the Fluke 101 need to share the spotlight?  Will it just be the two Flukes or does the 101 really only pass because of it's lack of a current input?    Many have asked why buy a Fluke if others are just as good.   We know Flukes own 87V could not survive the final test.   What will people think if the Radio Shack meter survives what the 87V can't?   And what about the Brymen??   Am I really going to put my own $230 Brymen meter on this generator just to see if it passes a test where the 87V failed?   

Where is that 87V now anyway? :)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 09, 2015, 02:15:40 pm
Where is that 87V now anyway? :)

Where it gets much better care than it ever did in my hands. 

Do it Joe, do it.  :box:

 :-DD   You're not the only one wanting to see this. 


Not to spoil the outcome, I have not run the high voltage test yet but I have ran the AMPROBE AM-530 all the way up to 5.9KV (max output).  Keep in mind that the AM-510 was in the finals with the Fluke 101.  Both companies owned by Danaher so I was not too surprised.   But as I continued to test the 530 at higher voltage levels, it never gave any signs of an arc.    Also, once it was damaged, it never really got any worse like all of the other meters.   It still read DC and AC voltages just fine.   So rather than try and finish it off, I thought it may be more helpful to some of you if I actually attempted to repair it.

I did a quick check and when in ohms, I could see the output was working but the input was loaded.   There is only one part in this node, Q9.   This is an H1A.   I pulled it and sure enough, it was damaged.   Installed a new one and all of the modes appeared to work.   The meter was never all that accurate, so I went ahead and aligned it.   From what I could tell:

VR1 sets the DC offset
VR9 sets the AC
VR6 sets the temperature
VR7 sets the capacitance

So if you happen to over voltage your AMPROBE AM-530 by accident and the ohms, diode and capacitance modes no longer work, check Q9. 


And for the few of you actually following this thread, here is the 5KV testing.  It's long but there is some damage for everyone to enjoy.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPAIIqxnRj4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPAIIqxnRj4)



Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 09, 2015, 11:19:35 pm
The first of the meters are subjected to the new generator's maximum level.   This included the AMPROBE AM-530.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzxH6HHsuLQ&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzxH6HHsuLQ&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 10, 2015, 10:54:37 am
The computer is compressing the last video and I will upload it tonight.   Then I am all caught up and am free to focus on the final video.   

Sorry for the length of some of these.  I sped things up further in this last video when the actual transients are being applied.   


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 10, 2015, 01:43:05 pm
Glad to see fluke and amprobe living up to their names!  I hope Extech gets a new OEM in the near future because their EX series meters are a complete fail.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 10, 2015, 02:55:18 pm
For the record, the MM series by Extech are the Brymens.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 10, 2015, 04:07:40 pm
For the record, the MM series by Extech are the Brymens.

Indeed.  Aren't there a good 4+ companies that relabel those?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 11, 2015, 02:34:40 am
Finally, the last video is uploaded and I am all caught up!!  Watch as the Brymen BM869s, RadioShack 2200087 and the Fluke 107 are tested at 6KV, 100us FWHH, 2 ohm source.  Much worse than the AMPROBE AM-510 saw in the finals!     

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MjyoJx2Rnw&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MjyoJx2Rnw&feature=youtu.be)

Next up, we may not be able to answer the question, "If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?"   People buy what they buy.   But we can get an idea if the Brymen BM869s can handle high level transients than Fluke's popular 87V.   

Found my original Fluke in a magazine.    $299 or roughly $1445 in today's dollars.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 11, 2015, 04:53:28 pm
I might have to pick up one of those Brymens.  They look legit.  The price is what's crazy.  You could almost buy three of those for the price of a Fluke 87V.  Don't get me wrong, I love my 87V, but when you start looking at the list of things the Brymen can accomplish for 1/3 the cost, it's really impressive.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 11, 2015, 06:29:04 pm
Which Brymen are you referring to?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 11, 2015, 09:05:12 pm
Which Brymen are you referring to?

Whatever the flagship one is. 869s, correct?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 11, 2015, 09:32:35 pm
The Fluke 87 V (lifetime warranty) costs 405$ in the US. The Greenlee DM-860A (Brymen 869S) costs 417$. Where do you get a third of the price from?
The Brymen 869S (12 month warranty only) costs 227$ in Europe, plus import duties in the US if any, and postage ($10.00)
A multimeter has an import duty rate of 1.7% into the US (About 5$ in this case).

http://www.alliedelec.com/greenlee-dm-860a/70160647/ (http://www.alliedelec.com/greenlee-dm-860a/70160647/)
http://www.tequipment.net/FlukeDigital87VMultimeter.html (http://www.tequipment.net/FlukeDigital87VMultimeter.html)
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/ (http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 12, 2015, 03:27:08 am
I agree a third of the price is not comparing best prices. Usually it is more like 2/3 the price.

FYI a Greenlee DM-860A can be had for much less than $417.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GREENLEE-DM-860A-DMM-500K-COUNTS-DM-860A-/131599331392?hash=item1ea3ee7040 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/GREENLEE-DM-860A-DMM-500K-COUNTS-DM-860A-/131599331392?hash=item1ea3ee7040)

The BM869S is closer to $250 with shipping included. The only difference is the lifetime warranty with the Greenlee.

Some people think the lifetime warranty with Fluke is worth the money. I am not here to argue about personal preferences as it is pointless. I am only stating facts.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 12, 2015, 04:10:43 am
eBay is hardly a reliable outlet. 3 meters available.  ::)
Return policy 14 days. Greenlee warranty may not apply.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 12, 2015, 04:31:55 am
http://www.westwayelectricsupply.com/dm-860a-dmm-500k-counts-dm-860a.html (http://www.westwayelectricsupply.com/dm-860a-dmm-500k-counts-dm-860a.html)
http://www.valuetesters.com/greenlee-dm-860a-digital-multimeter.html (http://www.valuetesters.com/greenlee-dm-860a-digital-multimeter.html)
http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/tools/test-measurement/Metrs-HVAC-R/dm-860a-industrial-digital-multimeter (http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/tools/test-measurement/Metrs-HVAC-R/dm-860a-industrial-digital-multimeter)
 :box:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 12, 2015, 04:53:44 am
I don't like the Brymen red color. People might think I own a Uni-T or something.   >:(

Greenlee Green is a bit better, but a lot more expensive than Brymen Red. :-//

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 12, 2015, 04:57:16 am
http://www.westwayelectricsupply.com/dm-860a-dmm-500k-counts-dm-860a.html (http://www.westwayelectricsupply.com/dm-860a-dmm-500k-counts-dm-860a.html)
http://www.valuetesters.com/greenlee-dm-860a-digital-multimeter.html (http://www.valuetesters.com/greenlee-dm-860a-digital-multimeter.html)
http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/tools/test-measurement/Metrs-HVAC-R/dm-860a-industrial-digital-multimeter (http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/tools/test-measurement/Metrs-HVAC-R/dm-860a-industrial-digital-multimeter)
 :box:
1. No stock? $325.00 is a good price, if available.
2. Very low stock $313.00
3. Unknown stock $366.00 ($40 less than the Fluke)

Big price differences between US retailers ($417.00~$313.00). Doesn't make much sense to me.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 12, 2015, 04:58:56 am
I don't like the Brymen red color. People might think I own a Uni-T or something.   >:(

Greenlee Green is a bit better, but a lot more expensive than Brymen Red. :-//
Lifetime warranty, whatever that means at Greenlee.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 12, 2015, 05:35:04 am
I don't like the Brymen red color. People might think I own a Uni-T or something.   >:(

Greenlee Green is a bit better, but a lot more expensive than Brymen Red. :-//

 :-DD Multimeters as fashion accessories....
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 12, 2015, 05:35:35 am
Oh, it's come down in price. I remember the 87V being a lot more when I bought mine.  Good to see it drop in price.  Half the price would be more accurate then.

However, if we're talking people in EU or AU getting getting an 87V versus the brymen, I'd say that's probably every bit of 1/3 the price for the brymen.

EDIT: I lied, just found my invoice.  Paid $314.  I bought it with Fluke's leather bag / probe set which was what jacked the entire order's price up.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 13, 2015, 12:19:08 pm
The Brymen BM869s from TME was shipped to the USA in under a week for $235 US.   They are in-stock.   When I last looked on Amazon, the 87V was about $412 with shipping.   To be honest, I really was not too concerned about the price.  I knew what I wanted the meter for and what features I wanted.  Even at the same price, I would have picked the BM869s over the 87V.   

So many reviews on the BM869 but no one takes it apart.  Sure, they pop the cover but no one was willing to go further.   :palm:  That won't be a problem.   If I am willing to put 13KV to it, you know I am willing to take it apart.   Stay tuned....
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 13, 2015, 01:16:51 pm
I was starting to think that you might have touched the business end of your new rig or something because we hadn't heard from you in a couple days  :-DD

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on October 13, 2015, 01:18:28 pm
The Brymen BM869s from TME was shipped to the USA in under a week for $235 US.   They are in-stock.   When I last looked on Amazon, the 87V was about $412 with shipping.   To be honest, I really was not too concerned about the price.  I knew what I wanted the meter for and what features I wanted.  Even at the same price, I would have picked the BM869s over the 87V.   

So many reviews on the BM869 but no one takes it apart.  Sure, they pop the cover but no one was willing to go further.   :palm:  That won't be a problem.   If I am willing to put 13KV to it, you know I am willing to take it apart.   Stay tuned....

I actually have one fully written up and proof-reading now. Full teardown and some performance analysis (no 13kV testing though lol), will post it soon Finally, got around to fixing my laptop so I can post it.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 13, 2015, 01:43:54 pm
The Brymen BM869s from TME was shipped to the USA in under a week for $235 US.   They are in-stock.   When I last looked on Amazon, the 87V was about $412 with shipping.   To be honest, I really was not too concerned about the price.  I knew what I wanted the meter for and what features I wanted.  Even at the same price, I would have picked the BM869s over the 87V.   

So many reviews on the BM869 but no one takes it apart.  Sure, they pop the cover but no one was willing to go further.   :palm:  That won't be a problem.   If I am willing to put 13KV to it, you know I am willing to take it apart.   Stay tuned....

I actually have one fully written up and proof-reading now. Full teardown and some performance analysis (no 13kV testing though lol), will post it soon Finally, got around to fixing my laptop so I can post it.

 :-+ Looking forward to it. 

I was starting to think that you might have touched the business end of your new rig or something because we hadn't heard from you in a couple days  :-DD

Yea, I think you know first hand that 15 meters is a pretty big project to take on.    :-DD  PM'ed you about the meters.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 14, 2015, 03:44:21 pm
THE FINALS!!!!    With the RadioShack, Brymen BM869s and Fluke 107 taking on the 13KV generator.    Again, big thanks to 5ky for making this happen!!   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dchy-0u-W7A&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dchy-0u-W7A&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on October 14, 2015, 05:18:35 pm
Hats off to you Joe.  :-+
What a great series.  :clap:

Your drop test.  :o 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 14, 2015, 05:31:33 pm
Awesome!  I loved the supercut of the discharges at the end.

Also, the meters handled the 3 floor drop test better than I thought they would have.  Did any come out without damage outside of scuffs/scratches/cracks?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 14, 2015, 06:47:32 pm
You seem full of praise for the Brymen and scorn for the Fluke 87V.
If I understand correctly, they both failed at 13kV on the Ohms range only and were both fixed by replacing a couple of transistors.
Can you explain the reason for the dichotomy?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: poida_pie on October 14, 2015, 09:27:00 pm
Joe,
Thanks for doing all this work, showing how to safely test these meters.
After all this, I am now interested in how the Flukes were designed so that they survive the 12kV pulse.
Time to search for teardown photos of the input protection and maybe also schematics...
This is the result of your work: it's made me start thinking and looking for myself about how and why.

Brillant effort
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 14, 2015, 11:59:43 pm
Thanks for doing this. It's been a long slog but a lot of good data was produced.

I might have to get me a Fluke 107...

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2015, 12:01:51 am
After all this, I am now interested in how the Flukes were designed so that they survive the 12kV pulse.

I don't think the secret is in the schematic.

A lot of the meters have the same level of protection but the MOVs and PTCs blew apart. The ones inside the Fluke didn't. Higher quality/better rated components in the Flukes...?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 15, 2015, 02:11:29 am
You seem full of praise for the Brymen and scorn for the Fluke 87V.
If I understand correctly, they both failed at 13kV on the Ohms range only and were both fixed by replacing a couple of transistors.
Can you explain the reason for the dichotomy?
Yes, I was wondering too.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: poida_pie on October 15, 2015, 07:37:17 am
After all this, I am now interested in how the Flukes were designed so that they survive the 12kV pulse.

I don't think the secret is in the schematic.

A lot of the meters have the same level of protection but the MOVs and PTCs blew apart. The ones inside the Fluke didn't. Higher quality/better rated components in the Flukes...?
Exactly, I wonder what happens to the various MOVs PTCs ect when fed 12kV. It may be a simple gross overload, or possibly something more sinister such as leakage like non ideal behaviour that permits overload into sensitive areas.
It's time for me to learn about MOVs and the other protection device's real properties.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 15, 2015, 06:03:53 pm
Thanks for the kind comments.   

Also, the meters handled the 3 floor drop test better than I thought they would have.  Did any come out without damage outside of scuffs/scratches/cracks?
It would be very hard to say just how much damage was done during drop as the meters had all been pretty much destroyed beyond repair by this stage of testing.   There was one meter that it tore an IC off the board during drop.  Many of the LCDs were damaged.    That Circuit-Test was the only somewhat working meter I dropped.  It cracked the kickstand in half but really that meter held up very well which was why I gave it its own little segment.      I really thought the the INNOVA would do nothing in the drop because it is so light but that was not the case.   
 
I might have to get me a Fluke 107...

5ky has offered to allow me to continue to test the Fluke 107.   Don't be too surprised to see in a later video.   The things I did not like about the 101, like the ultra slow continuity test, lack of a backlit LCD were addressed, plus you can measure AC and DC currents.    Still not a very feature rich meter but hard to argue how electrically robust it is.   

After all this, I am now interested in how the Flukes were designed so that they survive the 12kV pulse.

I don't think the secret is in the schematic.

A lot of the meters have the same level of protection but the MOVs and PTCs blew apart. The ones inside the Fluke didn't. Higher quality/better rated components in the Flukes...?
Exactly, I wonder what happens to the various MOVs PTCs ect when fed 12kV. It may be a simple gross overload, or possibly something more sinister such as leakage like non ideal behaviour that permits overload into sensitive areas.
It's time for me to learn about MOVs and the other protection device's real properties.


Take it for what its worth, I have now put 23 meters to the recycle bins.  It's not a lot of data but worth a high level rundown of the types of failures I have seen from running these tests.   


I would say the highest failures that cause the meters to be non-repairable, the control IC is damaged.  This happens a lot.  To be clear, I am not at all suggesting that the IC is the problem with the designs where they fail. 

Transistors/diodes.    This is been a very common theme.  In these cases, most appear to be setup as a clamp.  In many cases, these parts will blow apart and become an open.  Then the transient will continue to the next part.  Normally the control IC.   In most cases where the IC was damaged, a clamp was damaged too.   Most, but not all.   In some rare cases I suspect the IC was damaged with no other damaged parts. 

PTCs have taken their fair amount of damage.  I most cases, they still work even though they arc over.  The arc will often damage the outside coating assuming it has one.  Parts that do not have this layer just arc around the outside.  Of course, this nice low impedance arc will go to the next thing down the chain, normally the clamp.    In some rare cases the PTCs were damaged beyond the point where they would function.

MOVs  Well, my own experience with MOVs is they degrade and short.  Their cases will catch fire and crack.   For the meter's I have damaged, I have never seen an MOV fail.    This does not surprise me at all nor should it surprise anyone here.   The MOVs used are normally behind a PTC and are going to handle a fair amount of energy.   Again, the amount of energy I am using to test these meters is VERY small.   Enough hits' I would expect to see them degrade.     This again is why I get confused when people talk about correlating these tests with meter safety.  That's just stupid.  There just is not enough stored energy to do anything like explode a meter.   And again, that was never a goal of mine....   Sorry for beating the dead horse, yet again....

Resistors  I was going to post HV resistors but that may confuse a few people.  In several cases, I have seen the front end built with 1206s and other small packages.   Some meters will use little MF 1/4 axial parts.   This is not always a problem but there was a meter in this last set of tests that used 1 pc of a 1/4 MF resistor in series with a PTC then to a MOV.    :palm:    Worse, I think that meter had footprints for some HV parts!!   Again, everyone wanting to make their profits.   Like the Brymen, this particular meter had two different circuits, each with their own single 1/4 MF resistor, going to the Vin jack.   Both of those resistors opened up. 

Circuit boards   There are two things I see happen.  Traces will not handle the surge and become damaged.   In some cases, this has caused even more damage to other circuits once they open up.    The other problem has been lack of creepage distance. 

Other  Let's stop using lead in solder again  :palm:   Here's an idea, make reliable products that don't end up in land fills!   I have seen more than one solder joint fracture.   Some are just poor hand soldering.    Normally, problems like this I just fix and move on with the testing.   That said, most of these are now lead free and look good.   Time will tell how this plays out.

So I stated in the video that I thought it would not take a whole lot to get the Brymen to pass that last test.  While the Brymen BM869s was damaged, the two transistors still sort of worked.  In most cases, when the diodes or transistors like this have failed, there was enough going through them to make the damage very visible.  :-DD   Take that Danaher 87V for example.  Three diodes damaged and the transient cracked every case.    As you saw from my video, that Brymen can read in the pf.   So shoving a MOV across the input with 2000pf may not be such a smart idea but in some cases this may not be critical.    I don't think you will find a single one size fits all fix.

If we wanted to talk about safety, I think you need to consider that in some cases what I wrote about the failures may have been by design to prevent a hazard.   Take for example the meter that I mentioned from 5ky that had the two 1/4W MF parts.   Sure I bitched about the pads allowing for a larger package.  However, that fact that they opened my have been by design to prevent a hazard.     :-//   I don't know, nor do I care as I have no interest in using a meter like this in a high voltage high energy applications.    I am interested in a meter that is robust as well as feature rich.   The Brymen BM869s is the best I have seen for my use.   

Sorry for the long post.  Hope it helps tie things together.   


You seem full of praise for the Brymen and scorn for the Fluke 87V.
If I understand correctly, they both failed at 13kV on the Ohms range only and were both fixed by replacing a couple of transistors.
Can you explain the reason for the dichotomy?
Yes, I was wondering too.

Fluke, what can I say that has not already been written in the history of Fluke and Danaher. 

"At Danaher, our vision is that associates and customers will demonstrate extraordinary loyalty; that we will be respected and admired by all who come into contact with us;...."

I admire the way the $400+ 87V is tested in your labs but blew the backs off of three diodes during a test that your $50 meter withstood!  A $50 meter that you do not even mention on your US website nor offer in the US.    Good Job Danaher, you have my respect!!    And really, isn't the fact that I have taken the opportunity to post videos about my very first digital meter that I have kept over three decades, demonstrate my extraordinary loyalty to the brand?     You have placed yourself on a pedestal for all to admire.   

Brymen, what can I say.  I am impressed with your website!   :palm:   I know you wrote that the BM869s would not survive my 6KV hit by design,  but you were willing to back me up and push ahead.   When the BM869s was damaged, did you back out knowing very well I had just hit the meter with far more than it was ever designed to handle?   No, you held up your end.   And when I offered to have a look at the meter to see what had happened, did you say that would void the deal.  No, you hung right in there.    That is trust!  You are an engineering company for engineers not some princess on a pedestal!  I have no doubt reading the history of your company where you are heading.   

If I wanted to buy a Danaher/Tektronix scope to put on a pedestal I would but I am surrounded by old LeCroy scopes for a reason!
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on October 15, 2015, 06:16:54 pm
Hard to argue with that Joe.

Companies that will stand behind the user are few these days.  |O
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2015, 11:06:00 pm
I might have to get me a Fluke 107...

5ky has offered to allow me to continue to test the Fluke 107.   Don't be too surprised to see in a later video.   The things I did not like about the 101, like the ultra slow continuity test, lack of a backlit LCD were addressed, plus you can measure AC and DC currents.    Still not a very feature rich meter but hard to argue how electrically robust it is.   

I like the size. Small is good.

I'm after something small that will fit in my little suitcase along with a bunch of Arduinos and stuff but people will stay say "Oh, a Fluke!"  when I pull it out :-DMM
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 16, 2015, 12:12:19 am
Seems to me you resent having been snubbed by Fluke for not paying any attention to your multimeter 'killing fields'.
I admire the way the $400+ 87V is tested in your labs but blew the backs off of three diodes during a test that your $50 meter withstood!
That 'test' is of your own invention. It is not required by IEC regulations, who should know a thing or two about multimeter safety. The Fluke and the Brymen only require a set of crowbar transistors to protect that range up to 1000V, not 13kV.
A $50 meter that you do not even mention on your US website nor offer in the US.
A very basic cheap CAT III 600V averaging meter for the Asian market. Surely Fluke has the right to release some meters in specific markets, as they see fit.
Brymen is a smaller company trying to make it big in foreign markets. It is understandable that they would be more receptive to unusual requests coming out of the US.

For the record, I got stellar service from Fluke in China, being invited and escorted to their main office in Shanghai. I was allowed to try out several replacement sets of TL910 electronic test probes, until I was satisfied with their quality.
When I bought a Fluke 101 in Malaysia, I was given a good quality Fluke polo shirt, which was probably worth more than the meter!
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 16, 2015, 07:08:44 am
So Fluke is a big company and Joe didn't get attention for something he thought was important. The tests are well thought out and actually very informative to us and, more importantly, to Joe. It is his criteria for what makes a good company and/or good multimeter. This is what Joe relates and states emphatically.

The Brymen BM869S failed in a similar way to the Fluke 87V. So is it equal to Fluke? It doesn't mean that necessarily. It means that with Joe's tests, and in this case it failed in a similar way. Joe had more help and response from Brymen. It is reasonable to feel that a company is more interested in the customer when they respond and support the customer. This is not just Joe's experience, but also that of Wytnucls with Fluke in China. Does this make the experiences equal? No. Does this make them both invalid? No. They are data points to be considered.

Joe prefers the BM869S over the Fluke 87V for his reasons and from his experiences. He has stated his reasons clearly and without obfuscation. Some people will prefer Fluke over anything else based solely on their history and reputation. No problem with that.

Should you select a multimeter based solely on the tests of Joe and nothing else? That is up to you but Joe has his criteria and you might have your's that are in conflict. That is what choice is about. It is ironic that one of the cheapest meters from the models available from one of the most respected brands in the world bested the highest regarded model in these tests.


Many thanks Joe and 5KY for your contribution to our knowledge.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 16, 2015, 07:44:12 am
I wouldn't dream of using my Fluke 101 on anything above CAT III 600V as per its highest rating, confirmed by a CSA safety listing.
I would have no qualms using a Fluke 87 V in a CAT III 1000V environment.
Nothing I have seen in these high voltage tests is going to change that position.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 16, 2015, 09:11:08 am
So would you use a CATIV/1000V rated meter, tested and confirmed by UL, over a CATIII/1000V meter, confirmed again, in a high energy situation?  :box:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 16, 2015, 09:41:31 am
Not particularly. In a CAT III situation, any properly rated meter for that environment would be fine. The Fluke 101 too, if not more than 600V.
If I need autohold, the Fluke 87 or the Gossen 26S, if in a cramped space, the 101.
When did you last work in a CAT IV 1000V environment?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 16, 2015, 12:09:58 pm

I like the size. Small is good.

I'm after something small that will fit in my little suitcase along with a bunch of Arduinos and stuff but people will stay say "Oh, a Fluke!"  when I pull it out :-DMM


It's not too much larger than the 101.     I have often wondered just how much the 101 could take.   These are some very impressive meters!


I hope I made it clear that I have never asked for anything free from any of these companies.   I have provided them with the opportunity to be involved with the testing I have done.   It's no hair off my back if they take me up on it or not.    I have only reached out to three companies about these tests.   Obviously both Fluke and Brymen were included.   From the beginning, I stated I would be running the survivor of the low cost meters against some high cost meter to see how they compare.    When we look at Brymen, the cost was $240.  No where near the $410 for the Fluke 87V.  A fair amount of money for what I would pay for a meter.   So it's good to see where these companies stand on their warranties.     In the case of both Fluke and Brymen, I disclosed my intent and wanted to know if they felt their product would survive and if they would warranty them if damaged during the test.     That's it.     

Fluke not wanting to answer these questions is not that big a deal as obviously I went ahead and ran the tests anyway because I wanted to know the outcome.   

I have been clear about the goal for the tests from the beginning.   Nothing there has changed.   

The one thing that the Fluke fan boys are always going to hang their hat on is the fact that the 87V failed at 13KV.   No matter how I attempt to explain that the 87V was only tested at 13KV and I have no idea where it really would fail is ignored by the fan boys.    I had actually thought about blowing up some other cheapo meter at 13KV in the final video and just say "there Brand X didn't fail until 13KV, just like the 87V".   But there was already too much time invested (and it was not going to clear this matter up)

So, for the Fluke fan boys, you want to know just where the 87V fails?   The intent of building a programmable generator like the new one was to answer just this question!   

So get your popcorn out and get ready for the clash of the titans as the Fluke 87V takes on the Brymen BM869s.     
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 16, 2015, 07:51:15 pm
The crowbar transistor circuit on the Ohms range isn't meant to survive any voltage above 1000V. If you showed that it failed below that level, then that would be interesting!
Many cheap meters don't have such a circuit and instead, rely on the MOV/PTC for sole protection.

Brymen fan boys always brag about the low price, never about the 1 year only warranty. If the meters are so good, why don't you talk to your pals over there and find out why they don't offer a lifetime warranty? Now that would be interesting!
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 16, 2015, 09:06:48 pm
The crowbar transistor circuit on the Ohms range isn't meant to survive any voltage above 1000V.

Why not? :-//

I'd expect a Fluke to survive intact up to it's marked rating, not need to be sent off for repair. Isn't that the main reason I'm paying $400 for a meter with less functionality than competitors at half the price?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 16, 2015, 09:34:53 pm
Well, its marked rating is 1000V. High voltage transients on the Ohms range are extremely unlikely, unless done on purpose and no circuit protection is required under IEC 61010 above that, except for the blanket 'no harm to the user'.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 16, 2015, 10:07:21 pm
Well, its marked rating is 1000V.
But as you know, "CAT III 1000V" rating requires an 8000V transient.

http://www.ni.com/white-paper/5019/en/ (http://www.ni.com/white-paper/5019/en/)

I'm sure this is deliberate design by Fluke but it seems disappointing that their flagship meter is designed like that. Voltages over 1000V aren't that unusual, even in hobby work.

no circuit protection is required under IEC 61010 above that, except for the blanket 'no harm to the user'.

But...aren't we always saying Fluke are expensive because they're above the very basic requirements.  :-//

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 16, 2015, 10:39:21 pm
Fluke was not willing to provide details on what would be considered abuse and would never give me an answer if they would warranty the 87V if it failed during my tests.   That's their lifetime warranty.     Brymen with their 1 year warranty stated they felt the meter would not survive the 6KV test but they would warranty it anyway, taking part of the risk.    One looks good on paper, the other good in practice.   

To be clear, Brymen has never provided me with any products for free or for evaluation.   

I for one was very interested in seeing how this test would go, so I ran it last night.   If I sound tired in the video, that's the reason.  Without further delay....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Dg1QA71wU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Dg1QA71wU&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 16, 2015, 11:44:36 pm
Well, its marked rating is 1000V.
But as you know, "CAT III 1000V" rating requires an 8000V transient.

http://www.ni.com/white-paper/5019/en/ (http://www.ni.com/white-paper/5019/en/)

I'm sure this is deliberate design by Fluke but it seems disappointing that their flagship meter is designed like that. Voltages over 1000V aren't that unusual, even in hobby work.
.
no circuit protection is required under IEC 61010 above that, except for the blanket 'no harm to the user'.

But...aren't we always saying Fluke are expensive because they're above the very basic requirements.  :-//
You said that, not Fluke. There is no point protecting a meter against imaginary threats, pushing up the price and bulk of a meter. Besides, IEC would have come up with more stringent recommendations, if they felt it was necessary, like they do, once in a while.

8000V transients have been applied to the meter, with no threat to the user, as the UL, CSA and other listings confirm.
Voltages above 1000V are another ballgame and are not covered by the IEC low voltage regulations.

Do not apply more than the rated
voltage, as marked on the Meter,
between the terminals or between any
terminal and earth ground.


Measuring Resistance
Caution:
To avoid possible damage to the Meter or to
the equipment under test, disconnect circuit
power and discharge all high-voltage
capacitors before measuring resistance.


Measuring Capacitance
Caution:
To avoid possible damage to the Meter or to
the equipment under test, disconnect circuit
power and discharge all high-voltage
capacitors before measuring capacitance.
Use the dc voltage function to confirm that
the capacitor is discharged.


Specifications:
Maximum Voltage between any Terminal and Earth Ground: 1000 V rms
Overload protection mV, Ohm, Diode ranges: 1000V rms


The warranty does not cover damage from neglect, misuse, contamination, alteration, accident or abnormal conditions of operation or handling, including failures caused by use outside of the product’s specifications
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 17, 2015, 05:13:56 am
Brymen fan boys always brag about the low price, never about the 1 year only warranty. If the meters are so good, why don't you talk to your pals over there and find out why they don't offer a lifetime warranty? Now that would be interesting!

From Merriam Webster:
"Definition of FANBOY
:  a boy or man who is an extremely or overly enthusiastic fan of someone or something "

others
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fanboy (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fanboy)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fanboy (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fanboy)

I guess then that there are UT71D fanboys, Vici 99 fanboys, Fluke fanboys. Hard to tell what really counts if insults start flying.

A warranty is only as good as the manufacturer's intent to back it up. A warranty is one part of the buying decision equation. How it is weighted in that decision is up to the individual and his personal criteria. Is it more important than dual temperature function? Probably the answer is "yes" to many people. Is it more important than 50,000 count?  :-// Would I prefer a lifetime warranty in addition to every function I would want. Of course! Hmm, it is offered by another brand name but is it worth the extra money?  :-//
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 17, 2015, 05:43:55 am
Greenlee new 1 year lifetime warranty:  ::)

http://www.greenlee.com/support/warranty.html (http://www.greenlee.com/support/warranty.html)

(http://greenlee.ebizcdn.com/5f11b27f131494a1c014fcced2f13165)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: mtdoc on October 17, 2015, 05:50:11 am
Any test engineer or working scientist knows that you can't draw any meaningful conclusion from testing with an n=1 (or 2) - so all this teeth gnashing about exactly what these tests ultimately prove is misplaced IMHO.  They are certainly interesting and entertaining and make for a good discussion. I say well done Joe! (even though I know he has not tolerated my critique in the past).  Joe's biases come through but that is not a criticism - we all have our biases.  Any strongly held opinions about the  87V based on these tests are unfounded IMO but that's ok - we all have opinions..

As far as Fanboyism.  My favorite and most used meter is my Brymen 257.  I have stated this several times on this forum and it's the meter I continue to recommend to others here as well.    I own several meters of various brands including a Fluke 87V (bought for $200 on eBay).    That said if I was in the market for a full featured high resolution multimeter, I would buy a Brymen 869 simply because on a bang/buck basis it far outshines the overpriced 87V IMO.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 17, 2015, 07:45:29 am
Greenlee new 1 year lifetime warranty:  ::)

http://www.greenlee.com/support/warranty.html (http://www.greenlee.com/support/warranty.html)

(http://greenlee.ebizcdn.com/5f11b27f131494a1c014fcced2f13165)

If you are going to insult people and try to prove them wrong, at least find the right information instead of just that which appears to support your point of view:
http://www.greenlee.com/products/DMM-500K-COUNTS-(DM%2540d860A).html?product_id=19551 (http://www.greenlee.com/products/DMM-500K-COUNTS-(DM%2540d860A).html?product_id=19551)

It clearly states for that product, that it has a lifetime warranty.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 17, 2015, 08:14:38 am
Joe:

I was sincerely surprised to see the 87V fail on the ohms at 1.5kV. Was this the one that you repaired or a new one? This does not remove my confidence in Fluke in any way, but it was a surprise. It is not likely a test condition that the vast majority of people will come across so I don't see it as any negative against the 87V. A person making this error in real life tests should be to blame and maybe shouldn't be working with a multimeter unsupervised.

The fact that the BM869S failed at a higher voltage doesn't mean much neither. I would suspect variation in component manufacturer could have as much to do with the difference as the circuit design.

What was nice to see in both cases is that they were so easily reparable for so little expense.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 17, 2015, 08:24:14 am
in·sult
speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.
synonyms: abuse, be rude to, slight, disparage, discredit, libel, slander, malign, defame, denigrate, cast aspersions on, call someone names, put someone down.

I don't know why you feel insulted. I referred everybody to a new Greenlee warranty of 12 months for all their products . Maybe I should feel insulted for being wrongly accused of insulting people.
A limited lifetime warranty can be anything the manufacturer wants it to be, even 12 months.
If you have tangible information that the limited lifetime warranty for the Greenlee meters is longer, I'd be glad to modify my previous post with the exact number of years. I don't have a point of view. I'm only interested in facts.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on October 17, 2015, 08:29:25 am
Joe:

I was sincerely surprised to see the 87V fail on the ohms at 1.5kV. Was this the one that you repaired or a new one? This does not remove my confidence in Fluke in any way, but it was a surprise. It is not likely a test condition that the vast majority of people will come across so I don't see it as any negative against the 87V. A person making this error in real life tests should be to blame and maybe shouldn't be working with a multimeter unsupervised.

The fact that the BM869S failed at a higher voltage doesn't mean much neither. I would suspect variation in component manufacturer could have as much to do with the difference as the circuit design.

What was nice to see in both cases is that they were so easily reparable for so little expense.
Rubbish.

The Fluke (and argueably the Brymen also) is just not robust enough.......do some power electronics with contactors or large inductors and subject a meter to back EMF and poof.  :wtf:

Robust protection of a meter for this work is REQUIRED.
For entry level meters to survive and flagship models not.  :wtf:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 17, 2015, 09:13:31 am
No, the meters did not fail in an unsafe manner. The tests that Joe did couldn't even show that. Both Fluke and Brymen meet the safety requirements as spelled out by the IEC for their CAT ratings.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on October 17, 2015, 09:28:50 am
No, the meters did not fail in an unsafe manner. The tests that Joe did couldn't even show that. Both Fluke and Brymen meet the safety requirements as spelled out by the IEC for their CAT ratings.
I agree of course, but Joes tests were never about meter safety, only meter robustness.

That is, will a meter likely fail in real world usage with the transients that Joe defines.
Are those transient levels unreasonable? I don't think so.
Maybe some of the meters were never designed for use in such environments, only bench electronics.  :-\ Wouldn't we expect price to reflect the robustness of meters, we do but Joes tests show this thinking to be fatally flawed.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 17, 2015, 09:49:59 am
The Fluke (and argueably the Brymen also) is just not robust enough.......do some power electronics with contactors or large inductors and subject a meter to back EMF and poof.  :wtf:
Yep. I was messing about with some little Neon lamps the other day and when there's no load on my little 5V->150V transformer the output goes over 1000V, no problem.

(As measured with a $5 meter set to 1000V mode. It survived the spark...)

Yes, you have to set the Fluke 87V to Ohms mode to kill it that way, but still...not good.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 17, 2015, 09:53:41 am
I hope Fluke is watching this thread...  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 17, 2015, 09:59:06 am
Use a high voltage probe when voltages above 1000V are likely to be encountered (Overvoltage Category I only).

40,000V DC 28,000V AC
Division ratio 1,000:1
60$

(http://www.elexp.biz/test/hvp40.jpg)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on October 17, 2015, 10:05:36 am
I hope Fluke is watching this thread...  :popcorn:
Does it matter?

What matters is, are there mid priced meters out there that ARE electrically robust and WHO will donate them to Joe for further tests?

Daves EEVblog DMM's?

Where's my popcorn?  ;D
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on October 17, 2015, 10:13:51 am
Use a high voltage probe when voltages above 1000V are likely to be encountered.
+1
But how do the inexperienced know when to do this?

We've all made DMM range selection errors and subjected our meters to all sorts of abuse, sometimes it is just supidity, other times unexpected voltages. That the meter should protect you as per CAT or IEC ratings is a given, but simple user errors should not result in a  :-BROKE  :-DMM
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 17, 2015, 10:30:55 am
There are usually plenty of warning labels on appliances with high voltages inside.
I don't have to tell you that electricity is dangerous and a fair amount of knowledge is required to avoid accidents.
Multimeters are not entirely foolproof and should be used with a minimum of caution.
For what it's worth, I can't think of any high-end meter that has an overvoltage protection above 1000V on the Ohms range. And I've read a lot of manuals to compile the multimeter lists.

This is what Gossen says about their multimeters:
Be absolutely certain that the measuring ranges are not overloaded beyond their allowable capacities.
Limit values are included in the overload capacity table (600V for the Ultra, with a 10 second limit)


Agilent's overload protection on the Ohm range (U1271):
1000 Vrms for short circuits with <0.3 A current.

Amprobe overload protection on the Ohm range (HD160C):
Overload protection, all ranges: 1500 V dc or 1000 V ac rms
Transient protection on voltage ranges only:
12 kV impulse (1.2 uS/50 uS) based on EN 61010-1:2001 impulse requirement for at CAT IV 1000 V/1500V dc product.
This product should not be used in installations where transients exceed 12 kV.

 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 17, 2015, 03:01:07 pm
in·sult
speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.
synonyms: abuse, be rude to, slight, disparage, discredit, libel, slander, malign, defame, denigrate, cast aspersions on, call someone names, put someone down.

I don't know why you feel insulted. I referred everybody to a new Greenlee warranty of 12 months for all their products . Maybe I should feel insulted for being wrongly accused of insulting people.

Sorry for the delay in answering, but I wanted some time to think about what you said. I wanted to think if there was another way you were approaching this other than an attack against me, or Brymen, or Joe, or whatever.

Well you did say there are "Brymen fan boys" in an earlier post. That is an insult, I don't know who you were directing it at, but it IS an insult according to the definition you posted. How can you be insulted for doing what you have proven to have done by your own definition that you have provided?

A limited lifetime warranty can be anything the manufacturer wants it to be, even 12 months.
If you have tangible information that the limited lifetime warranty for the Greenlee meters is longer, I'd be glad to modify my previous post with the exact number of years. I don't have a point of view. I'm only interested in facts.

I am also interested in facts. If I insult someone or post information that is incorrect I expect to jumped on. I also post opinions and try to make it clear they are opinions instead of facts. I don't claim to be only interested in facts. People's opinions are also interesting. Are you claiming you don't post opinions?  :-DD

So you then admit that Fluke's lifetime warranty is only what Fluke wants it to be, or are they a special case? I only have the word of Fluke and Greenlee that their warranty is lifetime. Do you have special information? Discount the warranty of Greenlee at the expense of Fluke's. Do you have proof that Greenlee does not honor their warranty and everyone who has had a Fluke has always had their meter fixed without problems or exceptions? I remember evidence on this forum that Fluke decides what is a warranty issue or not even if the fault is obviously not that of the customer's. The 289 supercap corrosion problems are one example. I think I sided with Fluke on that issue but I think they could have handled it better. I remember there are other examples but I can't remember exactly what threads mention them at this point.

I really don't understand why you attack those who think that Brymen is a better buy for them. Do you have a vendetta? You have attacked me for having a bad experience with Uni-T, my experience with Brymen, and now attack Joe for having a well articulated position in favor of Brymen. He has his reasons and has spelled them out.

Amprobe (same parent company as Fluke) uses Brymen for some of its meters, as does Extech, as does Greenlee, as does some others.

You seem to find fault with anything Brymen. Why? Please explain how the legal wording in the warranty of Fluke is superior to Greenlee. Please explain how Brymen has ever let down its customers, show examples. If you read the manuals of everything that you have put in your spreadsheet, then you would have seen the warranty for Greenlee.

"Lifetime Limited Warranty
Greenlee Textron Inc. warrants to the original purchaser of these goods for use that these
products
will be free from defects in workmanship and material for their useful life, excepting normal wear and
abuse. This warranty is subject to the same terms and conditions (my emphasis)  contained in Greenlee Textron Inc.’s
standard one-year limited warranty.
For all Test Instrument repairs, contact Customer Service at 800-435-0786 and request a Return
Authorization.
For items not covered under warranty (such as items dropped, abused, etc.), a repair cost quote is
available upon request"

The conditions being, in bold:

"Goods manufactured by Greenlee Textron will be free from defects in workmanship and material for a period of one year from the date of user purchase, provided such goods are installed, operated, used and maintained in accordance with Greenlee's written instructions."
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 17, 2015, 07:42:33 pm
I wanted to think if there was another way you were approaching this other than an attack against me, or Brymen, or Joe, or whatever.
Well you did say there are "Brymen fan boys" in an earlier post. That is an insult, I don't know who you were directing it at, but it IS an insult according to the definition you posted. How can you be insulted for doing what you have proven to have done by your own definition that you have provided?


Mmm....strong accusations on very weak evidence. Don't you have better things to do? I have never attacked Joe or yourself personally in any way. As for Brymen, they make good meters, but they are not perfect and I will point out their weak features, when people just gloss over their shortcomings. AFAIK, Dave's blog still allows free speech and I won't seek your permission before I post anything about Brymen and their products. I just happen to disagree with the way Joe is conducting tests on multimeters and inferring from them that the Fluke 87 is a lesser meter than the Fluke 101.  The term 'Fluke fan boy' (his spelling) was used by Joe in an earlier post than mine (post 496)(1). Did you feel insulted? I didn't think so; it just characterizes people who are passionate about a particular item. Dave himself used the term UNI-T fanboys, referring to people who defend their meters, like myself. If anything, I have a lot of respect for Joe for being able to build a quality high voltage tester at such short notice and for fixing multimeters as fast as I can tie my shoelaces. He certainly didn't convey to me that he felt insulted by anything I said.

(1) 'The one thing that the Fluke fan boys are always going to hang their hat on is the fact that the 87V failed at 13KV.'

So you then admit that Fluke's lifetime warranty is only what Fluke wants it to be, or are they a special case? I only have the word of Fluke and Greenlee that their warranty is lifetime. Do you have special information?

Fluke's lifetime warranty is spelled out unequivocally on the first pages of their manuals:
Each Fluke DMM will be free from defects in material and workmanship for its lifetime. As used herein,
“lifetime” is defined as seven years after Fluke discontinues manufacturing the product, but the warranty period shall be at least ten years from
the date of purchase.
This warranty does not cover fuses, disposable batteries, damage from neglect, misuse, contamination, alteration,
accident or abnormal conditions of operation or handling, including failures caused by use outside of the product’s specifications, or normal
wear and tear of mechanical components. This warranty covers the original purchaser only and is not transferable.

Greenlee should have such a statement to qualify their limited lifetime warranty, but they don't. You haven't found one either, it seems. I take it as being 1 year only, based on their new warranty conditions. If you think it is longer, give them a call and find out.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 17, 2015, 10:14:53 pm
Wytnucls:

Fair enough. You are right in that I was being selective on who to call out on the use of "fan boy". It just has been my perception, perhaps wrongly, that you jump on anyone who likes Brymen. I apologize without qualification.

As far as the Greenlee warranty, I did call them. I even made thread about it. They said that lifetime meant lifetime, not one year, "lifetime" as stated in their text. The text I quoted from their website is legally binding and specifically states that it is lifetime for the multimeter using the conditions stated in the one year warranty. This means that the lifetime period is to be substituted for the one year period. The one year warranty is superseded by lifetime by that clause.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 17, 2015, 10:19:33 pm
Lifetime by itself doesn't mean anything. It has to be qualified for the product. Is it 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years after purchase? Is it transferable from one owner to the next?
Word of mouth is not legal, they should refer you to their proper lifetime definition on their multimeter documents.

Gossen warranty: (3 years)
https://www.gossenmetrawatt.com/english/seiten/warrantyconditions.htm (https://www.gossenmetrawatt.com/english/seiten/warrantyconditions.htm)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 18, 2015, 04:54:50 am
I have never attacked Joe or yourself personally in any way.   .................
The term 'Fluke fan boy' (his spelling) was used by Joe in an earlier post than mine (post 496)(1). Did you feel insulted? I didn't think so; it just characterizes people who are passionate about a particular item. Dave himself used the term UNI-T fanboys, referring to people who defend their meters, like myself.  ................ He certainly didn't convey to me that he felt insulted by anything I said.

It was not my intent to insult anyone with the Fluke fan boy comments and I certainly would not take any comments directed towards Brymen fan boys as an insult towards me.      As you state " characterizes people who are passionate about a particular item" was the intent of the comment.   

Quote
If anything, I have a lot of respect for Joe for being able to build a quality high voltage tester at such short notice and for fixing multimeters as fast as I can tie my shoelaces.

If my trouble shooting abilities make things seem simple, it is only because I have damaged so much stuff over the years!!!    :-DD  But, thanks.   


I treated all brands with equal prejudice (as far as the testing).  Sure I may be biased against Fluke and made that clear from the start but the reality is that all meters are tested the same.   Or at least I attempted to test them all the same.    In the end, twice now I have had to eat crow as I watched yet another Fluke out survive fifteen additional meters.   Even worse, again watching my favorite, shinny new Brymen, that came all the way from Poland,  which cost much more, being damaged in the name of science. 

The Fluke (and argueably the Brymen also) is just not robust enough.......do some power electronics with contactors or large inductors and subject a meter to back EMF and poof.  :wtf:

We've all made DMM range selection errors and subjected our meters to all sorts of abuse, sometimes it is just supidity, other times unexpected voltages. That the meter should protect you as per CAT or IEC ratings is a given, but simple user errors should not result in a  :-BROKE  :-DMM

For entry level meters to survive and flagship models not.  :wtf:

Yep. I was messing about with some little Neon lamps the other day and when there's no load on my little 5V->150V transformer the output goes over 1000V, no problem.

(As measured with a $5 meter set to 1000V mode. It survived the spark...)

Yes, you have to set the Fluke 87V to Ohms mode to kill it that way, but still...not good.

What you both are talking about has everything to do with why I am running these tests.   Watch a review and the meters may be taken apart and plugged into a wall socket at best.  Don't get me wrong, these people doing these reviews provide some very helpful data.   But if I buy a meter I want to know that the thing will survive some basic mistakes.   I would expect for many people, this will not be important.   It's hard to damage a meter looking at digital logic and car electrical system and maybe plugging it into your household wall socket now and then.  Sad that some meters I tested could not even survive this! 
 
Quote
I just happen to disagree with the way Joe is conducting tests on multimeters and inferring from them that the Fluke 87 is a lesser meter than the Fluke 101.

Quote
Any test engineer or working scientist knows that you can't draw any meaningful conclusion from testing with an n=1 (or 2) - so all this teeth gnashing about exactly what these tests ultimately prove is misplaced IMHO.  They are certainly interesting and entertaining and make for a good discussion. I say well done Joe! (even though I know he has not tolerated my critique in the past).  Joe's biases come through but that is not a criticism - we all have our biases.  Any strongly held opinions about the  87V based on these tests are unfounded IMO but that's ok - we all have opinions..

In the first series of meters I mentioned that I had only tested one of each meter and that this was not much of a sample size.  Obviously, we are never going to be looking at large same sizes for any of these reviews.    Many benchmarks are performed with minimal sample sizes and in some cases, even one sample  but it does not mean they are completely invalid or that we can not learn anything from them.   Statisticians are rolling there eyes now..... 

Let me start by saying that these products were obtained through normal channels.  In most cases they were procured through Amazon.   Why does this matter?  Well, if say the manufacture sent me meters directly for these tests, how would we know that these products were not special in some way in order to bias the tests?  So to be clear, in no case did Fluke or Brymen supply me with product for these reviews.   This is what I don't like about regulatory groups.  The companies ship the products to be evaluated.  Many times these may not be the final production parts.   They may need to make some changes and go back and forth a few times before they are certified.    In the end, do we really know the product that was certified is what will be supplied to you and me?  Or, will a MOV be removed to increase profits by some accountant.   Maybe a part was changed out for a cheaper part of what they think is the same quality and the product was not re-certified because of cost, time, etc.     So, because I obtain the meters my some means that the average person could,  I am making some assumption that the meters I test represent the average meter.     

Now this makes for another assumption.  I assume that the manufacturer has their process under control.    They may not and then my first assumption that my one meter represent the mean goes out the window.      So we could say for example, the 87V I tested does not represent the average 87V.  It was some outlier.  Then we also say that Fluke does not have control of their process.    Now I doubt they have a process control problem, but I don't know.  I would more guess that the meter just does not handle the transient by design in these other modes besides voltage.   It's a pretty old design when compared with the 101.  I am sure they have learned a few things and have improved their designs.   I have no data to back that up and am just giving them the benefit of the doubt. 

In the case of the 101 being the only meter to survive my first round of testing, we had a member repeat these tests using a different meter and commercially available transient generator.    The results were the same.   Even at 12KV they could not damage the 101.   I went further and increased the FWHH and added 1KV and still could not damage it.    I have some level of confidence that the 101 is very robust.   That said, I was not too surprised that the 107 survived this same test.     

Now had say the Fluke 87V failed at 2KV and the Brymen BM869s at 2.5KV, I would say we are well withing the margin of error of my tests and the meters them selves (what brand of components, date codes, etc).  But this is not at all what happened.   We have one meter living at 6KV and one failing at 1.5KV.    That's a pretty big window.   I bet if I tested 100 pcs of each meter we could find some 87Vs that would live to 1.7KV and some Brymens that fail at 5.5KV.      If the windows were much wider, I would really question their process and quality control. 

The problem in gaining confidence in the tests is that we are no longer talking about low cost meters.   I doubt that our members are going to run out and buy an 87V and BM869s knowing the 87V may be damaged at 1.5KV just to repeat the test and see which is more robust.     

I don't believe I have skewed the results or biased the test towards one brand or another.     Again, take it for what it is worth or feel free to step up to the plate and take a swing.   I am open to what ever tests the group can come up with to help determine which meters are more electrically robust than others.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2015, 08:28:38 am
For what it's worth, I can't think of any high-end meter that has an overvoltage protection above 1000V on the Ohms range. And I've read a lot of manuals to compile the multimeter lists.

So...if you're poking around unknown devices (even battery powered ones) it's better to use Flukes cheapest meter instead of their flagship.  :-//

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: 5ky on October 18, 2015, 11:42:51 am
So much salt, and no popcorn!
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 18, 2015, 12:57:40 pm
Lifetime by itself doesn't mean anything. It has to be qualified for the product. Is it 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years after purchase? Is it transferable from one owner to the next?
Word of mouth is not legal, they should refer you to their proper lifetime definition on their multimeter documents.

I agree with you, it is not clear. The definition of "useful life" can be defined as the period over which a capitol purchase is discounted to zero value for the purposes of tax write offs. This still doesn't help much but most companies would write off a multimeter after 5 years. I don't think that this is the definition that Greenlee is using based on my conversation with their service rep.

I am sorry, but the clearest answer I got from Greenlee service is that they will replace almost anything as long as it has failed not by fault of the user. A verbal agreement is as good as a written contract if you can prove the verbal agreement occurred, with a recording for example. I suppose that some boss at Greenlee could say that their employee overstepped his bounds and they will not honor his agreement.

The point is, IMHO, that Greenlee does have a lifetime warranty and it might not be as clear as some others, but the others also have lots of room to deny the claim also as has happened to some here. The room to avoid a warranty claim also exists in the Gossen link you showed. I have no vested interest in Greenlee.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: oldway on October 18, 2015, 06:19:39 pm
I have several Fluke multimeters and a 87V.
It is my favourite multimeter but I use it only as a bench meter.
For field service, I am using an old Fluke 73 that I bought in 1993.
There is a good reason for this.

Fluke 87V is far too expensive in Europe (more or less 500€). :--
Even used, it's hard to find one cheaper than 250€

My first 87V has been stolen during field service...It is highly risky because his high value. :scared:

If you don't need to have all the features of a 87V, the 101 seems to be a better option for field service.
Another option is the Brymen 869S that is not as well known as the Fluke 87V and is a lot cheaper for the same safety and features.

To be a real winner in Europe, Fluke should sell his 87V at the same price range as the Brymen 869S, I mean between 200 and 250€  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 18, 2015, 09:34:13 pm
Lifetime by itself doesn't mean anything. It has to be qualified for the product. Is it 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years after purchase? Is it transferable from one owner to the next?
Word of mouth is not legal, they should refer you to their proper lifetime definition on their multimeter documents.

I agree with you, it is not clear. The definition of "useful life" can be defined as the period over which a capitol purchase is discounted to zero value for the purposes of tax write offs. This still doesn't help much but most companies would write off a multimeter after 5 years. I don't think that this is the definition that Greenlee is using based on my conversation with their service rep.

I am sorry, but the clearest answer I got from Greenlee service is that they will replace almost anything as long as it has failed not by fault of the user. A verbal agreement is as good as a written contract if you can prove the verbal agreement occurred, with a recording for example. I suppose that some boss at Greenlee could say that their employee overstepped his bounds and they will not honor his agreement.

The point is, IMHO, that Greenlee does have a lifetime warranty and it might not be as clear as some others, but the others also have lots of room to deny the claim also as has happened to some here. The room to avoid a warranty claim also exists in the Gossen link you showed. I have no vested interest in Greenlee.
This is Brymen's warranty terms. I don't see much difference compared to the limitations of Fluke's or Gossen's limited warranties. I expect Greenlee's warranty will follow the same guidelines. No company will cover the cost of repair for an item that has been misused by the user, unless by prior arrangement or goodwill on their part. (UNI-T fixed my multimeter under their 3-year warranty, even though I had modified it extensively):

LIMITED WARRANTY
BRYMEN warrants to the original product purchaser that each product it manufactures will be free
from defects in material and workmanship under normal use and service within a period of one year
from the date of purchase. BRYMEN's warranty does not apply to accessories, fuses, fusible
resistors, spark gaps, batteries or any product which, in BRYMEN's opinion, has been misused,
altered, neglected, or damaged by accident or abnormal conditions of operation or handling.
To obtain warranty service, contact your nearest BRYMEN authorized agent or send the product,
with proof of purchase and description of the difficulty, postage and insurance prepaid, to BRYMEN
TECHNOLOGY CORPORATION. BRYMEN assumes no risk for damage in transit. BRYMEN will,
at its option, repair or replace the defective product free of charge. However, if BRYMEN
determines that the failure was caused by misused, altered, neglected, or damaged by accident or
abnormal conditions of operation or handling, you will be billed for the repair.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 19, 2015, 02:50:56 am
So much salt, and no popcorn!

It seems you are not satisfied with the damage I have inflicted on your meters and I would hate to think I had an unhappy customer.   So, last night I tore the old generator apart and rebuilt some of the circuits to handle even higher levels.   Today I will find the limits of your Fluke 107.

That's a 20KV 50us FWHH wave there with about 15J available..   


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 19, 2015, 03:24:13 am
Today I will find the limits of your Fluke 107.

Are we placing bets...?  :popcorn:

That's a 20KV 50us FWHH wave there with about 15J available..

Does it go up in steps or are we going straight to 20kV?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 19, 2015, 04:05:22 am
This will be all up to the MOVs (2x K575 13 26 7mm). Should be able to handle 35 Joules @ 8/20uS, clamping at 600V.
Overvoltage protection is set at 600V on voltage only. No mention of protection on other ranges.
Unfortunately, the clamping ability deteriorates with each transient pulse.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on October 19, 2015, 06:20:38 am
I hate working with lead free solder.
Then why on earth do you? It's muck.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 19, 2015, 06:31:51 am
Because everything is built with that crap now, including this 107.   On the bright side, if I have the heat gun out, you know something didn't go so well for 5ky's Fluke. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on October 19, 2015, 06:37:44 am
Because everything is built with that crap now, including this 107.   On the bright side, if I have the heat gun out, you know something didn't go so well for 5ky's Fluke.
Oh dear.  :o  :-DD
Your improved evil lady is truly wicked.  >:D

Will the 101 survive and be top of the heap?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 19, 2015, 07:15:56 am
I don't understand why anyone would use lead free solder for hobby work.  :scared:

I am interested in seeing the new beast at work. I wish I could get parts here easily to build something too. In Chile, the parts supplies are sparse and delivery times from around the world take months.

Upon reflecting on all the testing, I have a couple of comments if I may. (I know, when have I asked permission before? :) )

The Digitek/Tekpower has a space for an MOV. This would have definitely saved the meter from some damage IMHO, but it would not save the user in a real life big fault. It would be across the inputs directly without current limiting and could make a BIG bang if the meter was subjected to a high voltage surge while connected to a CAT III condition. Maybe that is why it was left out. It exists in my DT2843R meters and it would be interesting to see what would happen.

The title of this thread is "Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests." This could mislead people to think that these are proper CATIII surge tests. Joe has already said many times in the thread that this is not the case, but it still remains in the title.

It is still in dispute whether a meter needs to survive and function after the fault conditions as spelled out in the IEC requirements for multimeters, or if they only need to not cause harm to the user when the fault occurs. ( Yes Joe, your tests are not to prove this nor anything other than your criteria for what is a robust meter).

From Joe's tests, no meter can be said to pass or not pass the IEC requirements since we do not know whether the meter needs to still function or only protect the user from harm as mentioned above. It probably can be said that certain meters would certainly fail the IEC requirements from the damage incurred by Joe's tests, which would predict a big flash over.

An lastly, Joe has spent a huge amount of time and some considerable expense to do this testing. 5KY has also spent some real money. They are electronics nerds to be respected! :)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 19, 2015, 07:19:25 am
Because everything is built with that crap now, including this 107.   On the bright side, if I have the heat gun out, you know something didn't go so well for 5ky's Fluke.

That doesn't mean you need to continue to use lead free. Dilute the lead free with lead containing solder and be done with it!
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 19, 2015, 11:52:55 am
Because everything is built with that crap now, including this 107.   On the bright side, if I have the heat gun out, you know something didn't go so well for 5ky's Fluke.
Oh dear.  :o  :-DD
Your improved evil lady is truly wicked.  >:D

Will the 101 survive and be top of the heap?

I doubt I will run the 101 until I find another brand that I feel will outperform it.   One thing is for sure, that Fluke 107 is one tough little meter.  If you are blowing these up on your hobby bench, tell us all about it!    Even if you just blew up your Brymen BM869s, I would like to hear details about what you did.     No need to tell us you damaged your 87V playing on your bench.  :-DD   
 
I don't understand why anyone would use lead free solder for hobby work.  :scared:

That doesn't mean you need to continue to use lead free. Dilute the lead free with lead containing solder and be done with it!

:palm:  No offense but I find how you derive conclusions very fascinating.  :-DD  The next video may help you understand my comment. 

I hope to have it up in a couple of hours.   Poor little Fluke never stood a chance....
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 19, 2015, 01:36:15 pm
I don't understand why anyone would use lead free solder for hobby work.  :scared:

That doesn't mean you need to continue to use lead free. Dilute the lead free with lead containing solder and be done with it!

:palm:  No offense but I find how you derive conclusions very fascinating.  :-DD  The next video may help you understand my comment. 

I hope to have it up in a couple of hours.   Poor little Fluke never stood a chance....

I meant to quote this:
Quote
Quote from: joeqsmith on Today at 06:06:44 AM

    I hate working with lead free solder.

Then why on earth do you? It's muck.

I only was agreeing with Tautech.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 19, 2015, 02:14:55 pm
Most anything now days is some form of lead free.  If you watched my last couple of videos, you may have noticed I will at times use a Weller heat gun.  Some of the lead free solders have a pretty high transition temp that require me to throw heat to the PCB longer than I would like.   This is where my comment came from.   Putting the parts back is no problem but I don't mix lead free and lead solders.  Nor do I mix no clean and rosin.   :blah: :blah: :blah:

But I do damage meters..
5ky's Fluke 107 takes a  hit for science and somehow, I feel real good about watching it die!   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5GrYPBjSDs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5GrYPBjSDs)

THIS IS ONE TOUGH METER!!!!! 

Now that I have an idea where the 107 fails, I would love to put a 28 and 298 on the chopping block.     
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 19, 2015, 03:05:55 pm
I would be interested to see a 28IIEX put through these tests, as well as the Amprobe HD160C. Maybe we can come up with a group donation to add more meters to the junk pile.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on October 19, 2015, 03:56:42 pm
I would be interested to see a 28IIEX put through these tests, as well as the Amprobe HD160C. Maybe we can come up with a group donation to add more meters to the junk pile.
+1
Fluke 15B is the meter I'd like to see play with the evil lady.
I can get one to Joe for USD75 and happily pay half.
Any takers?

15B, 17B same internals.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 19, 2015, 07:48:29 pm
It is still in dispute whether a meter needs to survive and function after the fault conditions as spelled out in the IEC requirements for multimeters, or if they only need to not cause harm to the user when the fault occurs.
From Joe's tests, no meter can be said to pass or not pass the IEC requirements since we do not know whether the meter needs to still function or only protect the user from harm as mentioned above. It probably can be said that certain meters would certainly fail the IEC requirements from the damage incurred by Joe's tests, which would predict a big flash over.

I suspect that, after reading several manufacturer's operating manuals, meters with a proper CAT rating should still operate correctly after the relevant high voltage transient tests, but applied on voltage ranges only. Other ranges should survive a voltage equal to their highest CAT rating voltage.
The final test may consist of subjecting all ranges to transients also (to check for damage containment), but it is not confirmed yet.
Amps ranges are tested for creepage, with ruptured fuses in place, while double the CAT rating max voltage is applied for 1 minute.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 19, 2015, 08:50:28 pm
Fluke 15B is the meter I'd like to see play with the evil lady.
I can get one to Joe for USD75 and happily pay half.
Any takers?

15B, 17B same internals.

I was thinking the same thing (but one of the newer 15B+ and 17B+ versions...)

Also ... one of those old-school Fluke 27s. They're supposed to be pretty tough but I wonder if they'd hold up or not.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 19, 2015, 11:39:04 pm
The Amprobe HD160C won't fare any better. Overvoltage protection 1500Vdc or 1000Vac on all ranges. Transient protection on voltage ranges only:

Transient protection: 12 kV impulse (1.2
uS/50 uS) based on EN 61010-1:2001 impulse
requirement for at CAT IV 1000 V/1500V dc
product. This product should not be used in
installations where transients exceed 12 kV.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 20, 2015, 12:12:48 am
This is the overload protection layout for the Fluke 87 (Early 1989 model):

For Volt/Ohm/Diode ranges:
2 MOVs 910V (RV1 RV2)
3 current limiting resistors R1(1kOhm 2W fusible opens for high energy signal) R2(909K 2W)  RT1(1.5K PTC goes to high impedance for sustained voltage overload for mVdc/Ohm/Diode)
1 spark gap (E1) 1500V

For Ohm/Diode ranges:
1 voltage clamp circuit: 3 NPN transistors (Q1 Q2 Q6) 2 diodes (CR7 CR8) 1 resistor (R58) 120kOhm
limits the overload current to U4(ADC) to a maximum of 10mA.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/?action=dlattach;attach=177428;image)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 20, 2015, 05:01:32 pm
If people are really interested in testing more meters, maybe we could do a Paypal account or kick start for each meter people want to run.
Paypal would be OK.

Kickstart takes ages and takes a big comission.

We need to know how many people are interested though. Let's have a show of hands...

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on October 20, 2015, 08:16:30 pm
Fluke 15B is the meter I'd like to see play with the evil lady.
I can get one to Joe for USD75 and happily pay half.
Any takers?

15B, 17B same internals.

I was thinking the same thing (but one of the newer 15B+ and 17B+ versions...)

Also ... one of those old-school Fluke 27s. They're supposed to be pretty tough but I wonder if they'd hold up or not.
Nobody but Fungus seems to want to play.  :--

But we must ask Joe first if he wants to be inundated with meters to fry.  >:D
 :popcorn:

Joe?


This is the one I had in mind and Fungus, it is the latest plus model:
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Fluke-15B-F15B-Digital-Multimeter-Auto-Manual-Range-AC-DC-1000V-10A-40M-ohm-Capacitance-100uF/917544_1187715988.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Fluke-15B-F15B-Digital-Multimeter-Auto-Manual-Range-AC-DC-1000V-10A-40M-ohm-Capacitance-100uF/917544_1187715988.html)
I know this seller and he may want to play along,  :-\ especially if he can link this thread to his products.  :-DMM

If people are really interested in testing more meters, maybe we could do a Paypal account or kick start for each meter people want to run.
Paypal would be OK

We need to know how many people are interested though. Let's have a show of hands...
Paypal fine with me and I'll put some money where my mouth is.  :D

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 21, 2015, 12:30:48 am
Nobody but Fungus seems to want to play.  :--

Give it a chance...it's only been a few hours.

As a reference: The last video in this series got 64 views.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 21, 2015, 02:02:31 am
I said I was interested, I kind of started the idea no?

A Fluke 15B+ would be good, as would a UT71D, UT171B, a Keysight, Hioki, Gossen, Yokogawa, and Ideal.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 21, 2015, 04:29:40 am
Planning to willfully damage a whole bunch of mainly very safe and expensive meters. And this to prove what again? You guys have gone mental.  ::)
Thankfully, not too many takers.

It would be far more useful (and cheaper) for everybody, if meters with suspected bogus CAT ratings, were subjected to transients in accordance with the IEC regulations, to separate acceptable meters from the dangerous ones.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 21, 2015, 08:42:25 am
Mental?

I think that Joe is not mental, nor was 5KY. I might be.

The point is more data on where a multimeter fails? Maybe to educate and illuminate the differences between protection schemes and how a specific multimeter might be a better buy in the case of error in use? How a bottom of the line multimeter might be better suited to a newbie who could make some mistakes instead of a higher end one? Have we learned nothing from Joe's tests?

Wouldn't it be interesting if a Gossen couldn't take 1000V on the ohms range for example?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 21, 2015, 10:27:21 am
You stand more chances of getting pregnant than experiencing high transients on the Ohms range. That's why meters aren't built to withstand that abuse. 1000V is the maximum required and, like all Gossen DMMs, have already been tested to comply with their CAT rating.
Multimeter protection is not rocket science. Most high-end multimeters have the same kind of layout. PTC, MOV and crowbar circuit. As expected, they will fail safely eventually, if pushed above their safety rating.
The message to beginners should be to only acquire meters which have been tested by approved independent agencies.
There is no need to muddy the waters with indiscriminate destruction on all ranges.


Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 21, 2015, 02:06:00 pm
If you haven't seen it yet, DextersLab2013 posted a video using his new generator.    Looks like it does a nice job on them. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glzLlPO6CjY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glzLlPO6CjY)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 21, 2015, 03:34:42 pm
Planning to willfully damage a whole bunch of mainly very safe and expensive meters. And this to prove what again? You guys have gone mental.  ::)
Maybe...but if it's only a few $$$ then it's entertainment. People go to the cinema every day to watch them wreck nice cars, etc. :popcorn:

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 21, 2015, 03:37:05 pm
You stand more chances of getting pregnant than experiencing high transients on the Ohms range.
The protection isn't just there for transients, it's there for when operators make mistakes.

Would you lend somebody your Fluke 87 at an electronics club meeting if you could lend them a 107 instead?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 21, 2015, 04:21:18 pm
Well, the mistake is to test resistance on a live circuit, hence the 1000V protection. You may have to wait a few months before you get any transients.
If you play with higher voltages without a high voltage probe, you deserve that Darwin award.
As for the entertainment value, watching grass grow comes to mind. Maybe if you happen to live on the Atacama plateau:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Atacama_Desert_between_Antofagasta_and_Taltal.jpg)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 21, 2015, 04:51:34 pm
OK, Wytnucls, keep baiting. I am going to ignore you from now on. I just thought perhaps we had a different point of view, but you have now proven you are trying to troll me.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 21, 2015, 07:40:02 pm
Stop taking everything so seriously Personal information of another member removed by moderator, please "don't do that"!, that was meant as a teasing joke. I'm surprised you reacted that way because my Canadian friends usually have a good sense of humor.
I'm really sad you're going to ignore me. I enjoyed the few multimeter skirmishes we've had so far.
I'll get so bored and lonely now that I might watch a few Gossen DMMs getting blown up.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 21, 2015, 09:16:41 pm
Wytnucls,  I have no problems with you trolling this thread. 

It would be far more useful (and cheaper) for everybody, if meters with suspected bogus CAT ratings, were subjected to transients in accordance with the IEC regulations, to separate acceptable meters from the dangerous ones.

But again, while I had thought about using a standard transient generator to run the meters using the standard IEC waveforms,  it was never my intent to validate CAT ratings.   Forget that for now and lets talk about the "and cheaper" comment.   I have a fair amount of experience using outside labs for testing although it has been several years.   What does lab time cost there?   Do you pay by the day, hour, job?    I would also be very interested in how much time you feel it would take to validate one meter to the IEC standards?    It sounds like you have a lot of experience in this area, so please fill us in.


The protection isn't just there for transients, it's there for when operators make mistakes.
...
Would you lend somebody your Fluke 87 at an electronics club meeting if you could lend them a 107 instead?

That 107 is very hardened and I would have no problems at all about giving one to someone as a basic meter.   

I can see from Wytnucls perspective why none of this makes any sense.   If all you are doing with your time besides trolling is looking up specs for meters (paperwork) and putting all of this information into a spreadsheet (more paperwork) , you will never damage a meter.  Safety is still a huge concern for these people as I understand some paper cuts can get infected if not treated.    These people will never make any mistakes in the lab other than maybe forgetting to change their meter's battery.   


I said I was interested, I kind of started the idea no?

A Fluke 15B+ would be good, as would a UT71D, UT171B, a Keysight, Hioki, Gossen, Yokogawa, and Ideal.

Sorry, but I see no point in testing another UNI-T.   None of the four tested survived any where near what the majority of meters tested did.   The only good use I have found for one was this and really, a cheap set of ear buds did much better.  :-DD   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svJXiMMZzcQ   (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svJXiMMZzcQ)



Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 21, 2015, 09:54:13 pm
The protection isn't just there for transients, it's there for when operators make mistakes.
...
Would you lend somebody your Fluke 87 at an electronics club meeting if you could lend them a 107 instead?

That 107 is very hardened and I would have no problems at all about giving one to someone as a basic meter.   

I also like the fact that there's no 250mA fuse that costs $12+shipping to replace.

Not one person had a working fuse on the 250mA range last time I did a 'bring your multimeter' day at the club.

If they blow the 10A fuse, well ... something else was probably going to blow anyway. The fuse might pay for itself by saving that thing.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 21, 2015, 10:11:06 pm
Joe, you're not interested in IEC regulations testing. I get that. Not much fun as meters don't fail so spectacularly under those. If you change your mind, we can discuss it constructively, like I did for a couple of years with Lightages, Dave and others.
By cheaper, I meant acquiring cheaper meters as the expensive ones have a proper CAT rating already. There is no point retesting a Brymen CAT IV 1000V meter which has a UL listing. Your testing wouldn't validate the CAT rating by any means, but offer some valid guidelines for people who can't afford meters with recognized CAT ratings.
I have damaged a couple of meters actually, but that wasn't by playing carelessly with high voltages. I don't pretend to have your level of knowledge and skills, but paper cuts still hurt!
As for trolling, if it means not agreeing with someone publicly, then I guess I am trolling. Live with it.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 21, 2015, 10:52:48 pm
Actually, I am very interested in IEC regulations testing but not when it comes to handheld meters.     Under those standards the meters would fail much more spectacularly than what I show.    But that's ok,  I understand, between playing with spreadsheets, reading meter specs and trolling all day gives you little time to do anything else.  And that's fine. 

Yea, I figured you had no idea what it took to test a meter under IEC or what the lab costs would be.  Actually, that's too bad as I was hoping to see how they would compare around the world.   Maybe it's something you could research rather than trolling?  This way you can still spend time reading specs and playing with spreadsheets.   

Quote
There is no point retesting a Brymen CAT IV 1000V meter which has a UL listing. Your testing wouldn't validate the CAT rating by any means, but offer some valid guidelines for people who can't afford meters with recognized CAT ratings.

I don't see how anyone would ever draw a conclusion about a meters CAT rating from my testing.   Maybe you could explain this?    Most of my testing is under 10J.  The video from Dexterslab was 250ish?    Again, because you are special, I will repeat myself yet again,  I am just looking for robust meters.     If you have other test interests, you could always step to the plate and take a swing.   Keep in mind that playing with real hardware can be addictive!   :-DD

As for trolling, if it means not agreeing with someone publicly, then I guess I am trolling. Live with it.

I'm surprised you reacted that way because my (fill in the blank) friends usually have a good sense of humor. :-DD  Hang in there.  I can't afford to damage too many more Flukes.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 21, 2015, 11:16:54 pm
OK, Joe, keep baiting. I am going to ignore you from now on. I just thought perhaps we had a different point of view, but you have now proven you are trying to troll me.  :-DD




Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on October 21, 2015, 11:23:00 pm
The protection isn't just there for transients, it's there for when operators make mistakes.
...
Would you lend somebody your Fluke 87 at an electronics club meeting if you could lend them a 107 instead?

That 107 is very hardened and I would have no problems at all about giving one to someone as a basic meter.   

I also like the fact that there's no 250mA fuse that costs $12+shipping to replace.

Not one person had a working fuse on the 250mA range last time I did a 'bring your multimeter' day at the club.

If they blow the 10A fuse, well ... something else was probably going to blow anyway. The fuse might pay for itself by saving that thing.

It is useful. Some meters have a polyswitch instead to protect the mA range. The 107 doesn't seem to have one. Just as well, as they tend to fail if subjected to high voltages.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 21, 2015, 11:30:53 pm
OK, Joe, keep baiting. I am going to ignore you from now on. I just thought perhaps we had a different point of view, but you have now proven you are trying to troll me.  :-DD
:-DD

Lightages, no more Mastechs as well.  I'm not sure how many we have checked now with the re-branding BS but like the UNI-Ts they never seem to hold up very well.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on October 22, 2015, 12:05:02 am
Yeah, I have yet to see a Mastech that I would buy at any price,let alone recommend even they would pass any kind of test. They all seem to be very poorly made. The Uni-Ts were just ideas to show the difference, if any between the old and new high end models.

I am still up for donating towards the testing of other meters.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on October 22, 2015, 02:29:19 am
Great job Joe. :clap:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: dexters_lab on October 22, 2015, 04:30:18 am
If you haven't seen it yet, DextersLab2013 posted a video using his new generator.    Looks like it does a nice job on them. 

 :-+ >:D

thats just shy of 1700v, 185uF

it's a bit of a sledgehammer in comparison to your generator Joe, but it's good to show how well the blast protection might work  :-DD
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on October 22, 2015, 07:28:16 am
That 107 is very hardened and I would have no problems at all about giving one to someone as a basic meter.   
I also like the fact that there's no 250mA fuse that costs $12+shipping to replace.
It is useful.

Sure, but very delicate.

And in Fluke's case, very expensive.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on October 22, 2015, 08:56:59 am
Of concern to this thread is the sample size of n =1 for each meter and any generalizations to the rest of the production runs of each meter.

If a manufacturer does tight quality control, and Fluke makes public it follows a form of six sigma manufacturing, then the probability of product defect hover about 3 ppb. 

Thus, a single test device can be representative of the entire population, as any product in this batch is expected to be effectively defect free and made to perform as designed.  You could say the chance the single device doesn't represent the population its from is ~ 3 ppb.

Note, this holds only for a manufacturer that has a strict QC method like six sigma.  So for the other meters where the quality control is unknown, one cannot not say they failed or survived due to sample bias, or chance, a 'fluke'  :palm: ;).
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 22, 2015, 09:58:13 am
Saturation,

I believe what you wrote to be true as well and had posted on this subject a few pages back in an attempt to address mtdoc's comments.  See below.   Thanks for posting.   


Interesting and entertaining videos.  Well done.

That said however, I would hardly call a one-off test of this sort any definitive test of a meter's robustness. 

Sure, if the Fluke 87 had failed spectacularly at a relatively low voltage that might say something, but that's not what happened.

If 100 fluke 87s had been compared to 100 101s across a variety of controlled tests then you might be able to make a valid conclusion about their relative "robustness".

I do think the Fluke 87V is a bit overpriced at $400 compared to its competitors but that's a different issue.

In the end, any test with an n=1 is just anecdotal in nature and not evidence. But it does make for fun viewing an interesting discussion.

Any test engineer or working scientist knows that you can't draw any meaningful conclusion from testing with an n=1 (or 2) - so all this teeth gnashing about exactly what these tests ultimately prove is misplaced IMHO.  They are certainly interesting and entertaining and make for a good discussion. I say well done Joe! (even though I know he has not tolerated my critique in the past).  Joe's biases come through but that is not a criticism - we all have our biases.  Any strongly held opinions about the  87V based on these tests are unfounded IMO but that's ok - we all have opinions..


In the first series of meters I mentioned that I had only tested one of each meter and that this was not much of a sample size.  Obviously, we are never going to be looking at large same sizes for any of these reviews.    Many benchmarks are performed with minimal sample sizes and in some cases, even one sample  but it does not mean they are completely invalid or that we can not learn anything from them.   Statisticians are rolling there eyes now..... 

Let me start by saying that these products were obtained through normal channels.  In most cases they were procured through Amazon.   Why does this matter?  Well, if say the manufacture sent me meters directly for these tests, how would we know that these products were not special in some way in order to bias the tests?  So to be clear, in no case did Fluke or Brymen supply me with product for these reviews.   This is what I don't like about regulatory groups.  The companies ship the products to be evaluated.  Many times these may not be the final production parts.   They may need to make some changes and go back and forth a few times before they are certified.    In the end, do we really know the product that was certified is what will be supplied to you and me?  Or, will a MOV be removed to increase profits by some accountant.   Maybe a part was changed out for a cheaper part of what they think is the same quality and the product was not re-certified because of cost, time, etc.     So, because I obtain the meters my some means that the average person could,  I am making some assumption that the meters I test represent the average meter.     

Now this makes for another assumption.  I assume that the manufacturer has their process under control.    They may not and then my first assumption that my one meter represent the mean goes out the window.      So we could say for example, the 87V I tested does not represent the average 87V.  It was some outlier.  Then we also say that Fluke does not have control of their process.    Now I doubt they have a process control problem, but I don't know.  I would more guess that the meter just does not handle the transient by design in these other modes besides voltage.   It's a pretty old design when compared with the 101.  I am sure they have learned a few things and have improved their designs.   I have no data to back that up and am just giving them the benefit of the doubt. 

In the case of the 101 being the only meter to survive my first round of testing, we had a member repeat these tests using a different meter and commercially available transient generator.    The results were the same.   Even at 12KV they could not damage the 101.   I went further and increased the FWHH and added 1KV and still could not damage it.    I have some level of confidence that the 101 is very robust.   That said, I was not too surprised that the 107 survived this same test.     

Now had say the Fluke 87V failed at 2KV and the Brymen BM869s at 2.5KV, I would say we are well withing the margin of error of my tests and the meters them selves (what brand of components, date codes, etc).  But this is not at all what happened.   We have one meter living at 6KV and one failing at 1.5KV.    That's a pretty big window.   I bet if I tested 100 pcs of each meter we could find some 87Vs that would live to 1.7KV and some Brymens that fail at 5.5KV.      If the windows were much wider, I would really question their process and quality control. 

The problem in gaining confidence in the tests is that we are no longer talking about low cost meters.   I doubt that our members are going to run out and buy an 87V and BM869s knowing the 87V may be damaged at 1.5KV just to repeat the test and see which is more robust.     

I don't believe I have skewed the results or biased the test towards one brand or another.     Again, take it for what it is worth or feel free to step up to the plate and take a swing.   I am open to what ever tests the group can come up with to help determine which meters are more electrically robust than others.   



Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 22, 2015, 10:08:39 am
If you haven't seen it yet, DextersLab2013 posted a video using his new generator.    Looks like it does a nice job on them. 

 :-+ >:D

thats just shy of 1700v, 185uF

it's a bit of a sledgehammer in comparison to your generator Joe, but it's good to show how well the blast protection might work  :-DD

If we call what you have a sledgehammer, I would say mine is a tack hammer.    And what PhotonicInduction has is a pile driver.  :-DD   

I bet the Fluke 101 and 107 would survive on your generator all day long.   Much of the time I monitor the voltage to see what to meter is doing and many of them don't draw much until they get ready to fail.   I would NOT hook your 87V to it!!   That 1.7KV may be enough to push it over the edge.    :-DD 

I look forward to seeing more videos of it doing some meter damage and getting that thing to put out is maximum blast.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: dexters_lab on October 22, 2015, 07:23:34 pm
If we call what you have a sledgehammer, I would say mine is a tack hammer.    And what PhotonicInduction has is a pile driver.  :-DD   

I bet the Fluke 101 and 107 would survive on your generator all day long.   Much of the time I monitor the voltage to see what to meter is doing and many of them don't draw much until they get ready to fail.   I would NOT hook your 87V to it!!   That 1.7KV may be enough to push it over the edge.    :-DD 

I look forward to seeing more videos of it doing some meter damage and getting that thing to put out is maximum blast.

have both the 101 and 107 plus a couple of other older Mastech jobs

happy to put anything on it, well apart from my own  ;D
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 22, 2015, 10:57:39 pm
You know you want to try that 101 on it!!   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 31, 2015, 01:46:28 am
I would like to get somewhere in the maybe a quarter cycle of a home feed.   Say, 220v 200A 60Hz or just to see the effects on these dead meters before I recycle them.     

:-+ >:D

thats just shy of 1700v, 185uF

it's a bit of a sledgehammer in comparison to your generator Joe, but it's good to show how well the blast protection might work  :-DD

Let's assume that is 267J at the connector with no sort of network and you can double that at the connector.   I think this is roughly what I would like to see.

If I target say 1/4 cycle of a 440 line at 200A, that's 366J.   

Because some of the meters do not arc until much higher voltage than what you have,  my plan is to have a second low voltage high energy generator that is triggered from the high voltage transient of the first generator.     Staying with a stored system and keeping the voltages low should keep it very small and somewhat safe.   

I know it is still no where near the energy of what you could see in real life but it may provide some insight as to how these meters would handle a higher energy transient.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 31, 2015, 10:52:44 am
It's a start...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ii55eHfUWY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ii55eHfUWY)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on October 31, 2015, 12:56:23 pm
Damn that looks promising. I love how when you hit that CEM, you can actually see lights cascading behind the board. A lot longer lived than I expected.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on October 31, 2015, 01:34:08 pm
Damn that looks promising. I love how when you hit that CEM, you can actually see lights cascading behind the board. A lot longer lived than I expected.

I felt it was good enough to move forward with it.   It's too bad that all the other modes failed.  Really it was a pretty tough meter compared with most of them.   

All of the parts arrived from Digikey today.  Here it is for it's first tryout with the throttle all the way open. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPXizuSZACs&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPXizuSZACs&feature=youtu.be)

This things still just a toy.   Imagine what a real arc flash is like.   If a meter comes apart with this little thing, I would guess you have some problems.   

I need to get it into a box and make up some sort of safety glass cover for the meter holder.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: crispy_tofu on October 31, 2015, 01:38:09 pm
Wow, packs quite a punch  :box:  :-+
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 01, 2015, 04:08:35 am
If it can explode a light bulb what will it do to 5KY's Circuit-Test DMR-6550?   Watch and find out. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE2tl8NHIgM&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE2tl8NHIgM&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on November 01, 2015, 06:54:50 am
Is it bad that I am actually laughing at this? The power is a HUGE step up.  :box:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 01, 2015, 07:35:18 am
Is it bad that I am actually laughing at this? The power is a HUGE step up.  :box:

Can't blame you for laughing.   It is pretty entertaining to see up close.   

I'm not sure what if anything we can learn from it as the energy is way too low to simulate a real world condition.    Still, it's not something I would recommend the novice try as a starter project.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 02, 2015, 10:06:15 am
I spent some time on the case for the new generator.   1/4" thick plate aluminum with a phenolic back plate.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 02, 2015, 12:49:34 pm
Sanded out the machine marks and started working on the cover for the case.  Hope to have it finished by the end of the week.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on November 02, 2015, 02:28:43 pm
Beautiful start to the case! Those binding posts though, hot damn.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Vgkid on November 02, 2015, 02:39:05 pm
Those are some beefy lugs.
Where did you get those rack handles.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 03, 2015, 02:06:52 am
Beautiful start to the case! Those binding posts though, hot damn.

Thanks.   Glue set, some sanding, stain and first coat of poly is on. 

Those are some beefy lugs.
Where did you get those rack handles.

I don't remember what those handles came off of but would guess it was some old gear I scrapped.   

When I started this project, I was thinking BIG cables with very low inductance.   So far I have only been using some test lead wire and may just go with that.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 04, 2015, 02:02:47 pm
Finished up the new transient generator today and tried it out on some of 5kys meters.   I had a different knob picked out for it, but seem to have lost it.  So the small black one is there until I find it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fYVaXz8lVk&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fYVaXz8lVk&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 05, 2015, 06:19:58 am
Well, she died today.  Wasn't even a fire ball of death.  Actually it wasn't even turned on.   The margins were just too tight on the diodes.   Was running about 80% and suspect the stray inductance caused enough back emf to wipe them out.   Ordered some new parts and will add protection for them.   Shouldn't take much to solve it.   On the up side, the diodes seem to handle the forward currents just fine.   Also the protection for the capacitor bank seems to have worked.   

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: dexters_lab on November 05, 2015, 09:13:32 am
I would like to get somewhere in the maybe a quarter cycle of a home feed.   Say, 220v 200A 60Hz or just to see the effects on these dead meters before I recycle them.     

:-+ >:D

thats just shy of 1700v, 185uF

it's a bit of a sledgehammer in comparison to your generator Joe, but it's good to show how well the blast protection might work  :-DD

Let's assume that is 267J at the connector with no sort of network and you can double that at the connector.   I think this is roughly what I would like to see.

If I target say 1/4 cycle of a 440 line at 200A, that's 366J.   

Because some of the meters do not arc until much higher voltage than what you have,  my plan is to have a second low voltage high energy generator that is triggered from the high voltage transient of the first generator.     Staying with a stored system and keeping the voltages low should keep it very small and somewhat safe.   

I know it is still no where near the energy of what you could see in real life but it may provide some insight as to how these meters would handle a higher energy transient.   

just catching up on your new build Joe, you  really do finish off projects! Your new generators look beautiful, nice work... can we see inside the new higher energy unit, what volts/capacitance do you have in there? :-+

i still have not figured out the point where the magstim fires, a load of 100k ohm and it wont, but 1k does, i can put a coil in parallel with the DUT but then i am wasting energy in the coil. Your approach to use low energy high voltage to trigger the main charge is interesting... much like a xenon flash tube circuit in a way

i am taking the magstim over to a friend tomorrow, see if we can figure out why i am only getting 1700v instead of 2800v on the cap... i am sure we'll get around to making some things expire too, maybe i should try the fluke 101? >:D
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 05, 2015, 11:21:32 pm
Thanks.   
just catching up on your new build Joe, you  really do finish off projects! Your new generators look beautiful, nice work... can we see inside the new higher energy unit, what volts/capacitance do you have in there? :-+

i still have not figured out the point where the magstim fires, a load of 100k ohm and it wont, but 1k does, i can put a coil in parallel with the DUT but then i am wasting energy in the coil. Your approach to use low energy high voltage to trigger the main charge is interesting... much like a xenon flash tube circuit in a way

i am taking the magstim over to a friend tomorrow, see if we can figure out why i am only getting 1700v instead of 2800v on the cap... i am sure we'll get around to making some things expire too, maybe i should try the fluke 101? >:D
,
Thanks.   Yes, I really "finished this project off" yesterday.    :-DD

There's not much in them both.    The new unit has a power supply, capacitor bank with some protection for it, an output network and a trigger circuit.    I originally thought about making the bank using different voltage/capacitance values  and then having a waveform with multiple breakpoints.   But I already had the generator that could produce several KV, so it was easier to just use the lower voltage caps and design a way to trigger it.   The problem I see is that some of the meters I have tested did not break down even with 6KVish.   If they don't break down, the second generator is not going to cause any damage.

Are you sure that your generator does not fire?  Are you putting a scope across the outputs and looking at them or still using the loop?         

With your generator being designed for one specific purpose, they may not have a network like a typical combo generator would have.   For a combo, they spec an open and short condition for voltage and current.   In the generators I have made, I am keep the open circuit voltage  tamed to something like the IEC waveform.  But for a short, I don't have the energy available (for good reason).   And again, even with the new generator, while I can output a 200V+ volt AC wave while I am injecting the transient, the two are not in sync and the transient is coupled to ground not riding on top of the AC.   And, I limit the AC to typically < 50mA but can only go as high as 500mA (for good reason).    All that to say, in open circuit mode, the majority of the energy is dissipated in the output network.    With a short (or a meter breaking down) some of the energy is dissipated in the output network.   

The following paper may be of interest to you.
http://www.denverpels.org/Downloads/Denver_PELS_20070918_Hesterman_Voltage_Surge_Immunity.pdf (http://www.denverpels.org/Downloads/Denver_PELS_20070918_Hesterman_Voltage_Surge_Immunity.pdf)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 07, 2015, 04:54:24 pm
Increase the margins and added a couple of layers of protection for the diodes.  Ran several tests with it and it seems very robust now.   

Video showing 5ky's UTL meter along with some of the fuses that were used in these meters.    Why a company would put glass in a modern meter, I'm not sure.     

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWKoRxNEsXk&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWKoRxNEsXk&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 09, 2015, 02:45:26 pm
5ky's Fluke 107 is ran with the new setup.    Keep in mind it had been damaged during my previous tests.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h27MP58P4pg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h27MP58P4pg)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 16, 2015, 03:56:20 am
Cen-Tech 90899 meter with test leads on the new generator. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHWb0kjrIY0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHWb0kjrIY0)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on November 16, 2015, 05:23:57 am
Nice test with the centech. Unacceptable to have the test less blow out like that

Sent from my LG-ls990 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 16, 2015, 11:14:18 am
Agree!  I would not want a live probe flailing around in front of me.     I tossed out most of the probes that came with the meters I first tested.  I think 5ky did the same.  It may have been interesting to pulse test these as well. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 18, 2015, 03:13:29 pm
I made a viewing window using 1/2" Lexan.   Also shown is a new connector I made that ties the two generators to the meter.   I can use the standard banana cable shown, or I can also plug the meters test leads into this as well without using the test lead to banana adapters.       
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 20, 2015, 03:31:04 pm
Looks like  I can get it through Amazon.   They also offer the 17B with a few more features.

http://www.amazon.com/SSEYL-Fluke-Digital-Multimeter-F15B/dp/B00SEZU4KO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1447992356&sr=8-4&keywords=fluke+15b%2B (http://www.amazon.com/SSEYL-Fluke-Digital-Multimeter-F15B/dp/B00SEZU4KO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1447992356&sr=8-4&keywords=fluke+15b%2B)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on November 20, 2015, 05:25:12 pm
Finally got around to looking at this link showing the 15B+.   That's a step up over the 101 and 107.    I wonder if it is as robust. Any idea what it would take to get it sent to the US?

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Fluke-15B-F15B-Digital-Multimeter-Auto-Manual-Range-AC-DC-1000V-10A-40M-ohm-Capacitance-100uF/917544_1187715988.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Fluke-15B-F15B-Digital-Multimeter-Auto-Manual-Range-AC-DC-1000V-10A-40M-ohm-Capacitance-100uF/917544_1187715988.html)
Just money Joe.
As I've said I'll put up USD50.

Looks like  I can get it through Amazon.   They also offer the 17B with a few more features.

http://www.amazon.com/SSEYL-Fluke-Digital-Multimeter-F15B/dp/B00SEZU4KO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1447992356&sr=8-4&keywords=fluke+15b%2B (http://www.amazon.com/SSEYL-Fluke-Digital-Multimeter-F15B/dp/B00SEZU4KO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1447992356&sr=8-4&keywords=fluke+15b%2B)

The only difference betwen the 15 and 17 is the front case and keypad membrane with the extra buttons.
AFAIK they have the same PCB.

Note, the newer + versions have a backilght now.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on November 22, 2015, 06:40:23 am

Would it be better to run the 115 or the 15B+?    It seems like the 115 would be more common but the 15B+ may be a newer design.
I'm not aware if the 15B is available directly from Fluke internationally. AFAIK the 15B is a China market unit only, those that I have got have no warranty outside China.
Despite this I've found them a quite good DMM for basic bench work and I have some confidence in their safety ratings as the Chinese also have 230VAC mains like here in NZ.

The 115 on the other hand is an international product, probably more widely used  :-// but it's hard to beat the 15B or the never plus model for price.

As we know any unit that you get and expose to your lady devil  >:D wil not be much good for further use so I'll put up USD50 if somebody adds the extra USD25 to get a 15B for you to test in the name of science.  ;)

Tell us what you'd like Joe.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2015, 08:16:31 am
Finally got around to looking at this link showing the 15B+.   That's a step up over the 101 and 107.    I wonder if it is as robust.  Any idea what it would take to get it sent to the US?
It's an Asian model, so... you have to buy on eBay/aliexpress/whatever.

On the plus side: That means shipping is included!
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 22, 2015, 08:50:12 am
It looks like I can get the 15B+ through Amazon but if people would rather see the 115 or 117 ran, I have no problem getting one of them.    I haven't looked into Paypal yet.  So don't worry about it.   

As we know any unit that you get and expose to your lady devil  >:D wil not be much good for further use so I'll put up USD50 if somebody adds the extra USD25 to get a 15B for you to test in the name of science.  ;)

Tell us what you'd like Joe.

 :-DD   Not all of them die.    The 101 is still in great condition as far as I know.  I have never had it apart.   Even 5KY's 107, AM530 and my AM510 are all in good working condition.   The UT90 still works after damaging the traces twice (may need to do something about this).   Then there is the BM869s which is really proving to be a good little meter.   


After putting together the spreadsheet and reviewing the videos, one thing that is interesting is that both the Fluke 87V and the UNI-T 139C had the most thumbs down.   I assume both are popular meters is partly why.   Also that I did not increment the energy to see at what level these failed at compared with the other meters.   Hard to say. 

I had reran an 87V to find where it actually fails as a few people had asked about it.   No one has ever asked about the 139C but   now that I have a way to repeat the tests it may be interesting to see where it falls in.   

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 27, 2015, 04:03:00 am
It's a little late to roast them for Thanksgiving but the the 17B+ is on it's way along with a few other meters.  I like the features the 17 has and the cost was a wash.

 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: vinicius.jlantunes on November 27, 2015, 04:16:16 am
It's a little late to roast them for Thanksgiving but the the 17B+ is on it's way along with a few other meters.  I like the features the 17 has and the cost was a wash.

 :-+
I own a 17B+ and am curious to see how it goes.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 27, 2015, 04:47:43 am
It's a little late to roast them for Thanksgiving but the the 17B+ is on it's way along with a few other meters.  I like the features the 17 has and the cost was a wash.

 :-+
I own a 17B+ and am curious to see how it goes.

Do you like it?   Looks like a nice little meter. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: vinicius.jlantunes on November 28, 2015, 12:10:52 pm
It's a little late to roast them for Thanksgiving but the the 17B+ is on it's way along with a few other meters.  I like the features the 17 has and the cost was a wash.

 :-+
I own a 17B+ and am curious to see how it goes.

Do you like it?   Looks like a nice little meter.

Yeap! Pretty solid, The only thing I think could be better is the continuity test. But still a very good meter.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on November 28, 2015, 12:27:20 pm
It's a little late to roast them for Thanksgiving but the the 17B+ is on it's way along with a few other meters.  I like the features the 17 has and the cost was a wash.

 :-+
I own a 17B+ and am curious to see how it goes.

Do you like it?   Looks like a nice little meter.

Yeap! Pretty solid, The only thing I think could be better is the continuity test. But still a very good meter.
That's a broad statement, don't you just mean it could be faster?

In this thread the 15/17B stack up pretty well against others in terms of voltage and current specs for continuity test:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-with-low-continuity-test-voltage/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-with-low-continuity-test-voltage/)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 28, 2015, 05:41:46 pm
There's fast, then there is Van Halen Eruption fast!  :-DD     

I did play with the continuity test on the 17B+ and it is a bit on the slow side.   I'll get some real numbers off it.   I plan to update the spreadsheet as I go now and may add the continuity testing I have done as well.   

Quote
"Pretty solid"
  :-DD  This thing feels very solid compared with most of the meters I have looked at.    It's not at all what I was expecting.   

Side tracked a bit today trying to catch on things.   Took about an hour to take my Laptop apart, fix a connector and put it back together.   My old HP6285A died about a month ago.  This is the third time I have been into it.   This time was a real bugger.   These have a dual SCR pre-regulator.  This section was not working.  I thought I may have damaged something in the over voltage fault circuit but everything checked out.   After about an hour, finally found that the trigger transformer had a bad solder joint on the primary side.  I am watching it bake for a while before calling it quits for the day.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: vinicius.jlantunes on November 28, 2015, 11:12:59 pm
That's a broad statement, don't you just mean it could be faster?

Yes that's what I mean, that it could be a bit faster. The rest is fine indeed. But it's nitpicking really, I think it's a great meter, I'm even thinking about getting one more for the lab!
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 29, 2015, 03:53:34 am
After letting the meter sit at room temp after shipping (winter is setting in), I checked it for calibration.   For the most part, seems alright but the DC voltage is out more than I would have expected.   

At 10V 17B+ reads 9.95, or -50mV error
At 1V, 17B+ reads 0.994, or -6mV error

The specs state +/-0.5% of reading + 3 counts. On the 40V scale, the res is 10mV.   So if I am reading it right, a 10V signal could be off by +80/-20mV.     On the 4V scale, it's 1mV res, or +8/-2mV.   

Maybe I am not reading the spec right, or my math is wrong.  Seems like this meter is out on DC volts.  The rest of it looks good.  Maybe one of their DC calibration standards is off where the meters are being aligned.  :-//

My reference was last checked for cal last summer.   

Someone had posted that the 17B and 17B+ were the same board.  This is not the case at all.   The 17B+ is aligned digitally, not with pots. 

I would expect most of the higher end meters are aligned this way today.   I wonder with these meters, does Fluke make the tools available to align them?

At a glance, the layout looks alright.  All the basic parts in place you would expect.   They used a lot of grease on this one.  It was coming out of the vias and the center shaft of the rotary switch has so much it covers the back case half.   

Here are a few pictures of the 17B+ PCB and what I am calling excessive grease, along with a picture of my Fluke reference standard and HP34401 (both in cal)...
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on November 29, 2015, 05:14:01 am
When it specified +3 counts, it is a bit confusing. It really means ±3 counts. Why they don't say it that way I don't know. So it really is ±80mv allowable error on the 40V scale when reading the 10V source.(edited for clarity)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Wytnucls on November 29, 2015, 05:19:49 am
Fluke 17B+ manual:

Accuracy Specifications
Accuracy is specified for 1 year after calibration, at operating temperatures of 18 °C to 28 °C, relative humidity at 0 % to
75 %. Accuracy specifications take the form of: ±([% of Reading] + [Number of Least Significant Digits]).
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: DG5SAY on November 29, 2015, 06:01:58 am
Hi,
I have a 15B+ also with too much error.

At 10VDC, my 15B+ reads 9.87, or -130mV error
At 40VDC, my 15B+ reads 39.52, or -480mV error, thats nearly a half a Volt!! :--

The specs state for the 15B+ is also +/-0.5% of reading + 3 counts, like the 17B+.   

And yes, the 15B+ is also aligned digitally, not with pots, the older 15B has a pot to align.

Has anyone a tool to make a digital alignment?

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2015, 06:17:07 am
Someone had posted that the 17B and 17B+ were the same board.  This is not the case at all.   The 17B+ is aligned digitally, not with pots. 
Not I, but I did state the 15B and 17B have the same board, maybe you got you wires crossed Joe.  :-DD

This has been mentioned in threads in the past, the only differences being a different front panel and 2 additional buttons on the rubber membrane for the extra functins of the 17B.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the 15 and 17 B plus models shared the same PCB too.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 29, 2015, 06:55:21 am
Someone had posted that the 17B and 17B+ were the same board.  This is not the case at all.   The 17B+ is aligned digitally, not with pots. 
Not I, but I did state the 15B and 17B have the same board, maybe you got you wires crossed Joe.  :-DD

This has been mentioned in threads in the past, the only differences being a different front panel and 2 additional buttons on the rubber membrane for the extra functins of the 17B.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the 15 and 17 B plus models shared the same PCB too.

 :-DD So, I hunt down what  I had searched for and behold, it was your post  :-DD

Taken from the following:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-17b-%28plus%29/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-17b-%28plus%29/)

Thank you all for the replies so far. Does anyone know if the continuity test on the new 17B+ latches on good or is still scractchy like what Dave tested on the review of the old 17B??
AFAIK the internals are the same as a 15B and the continuity test is excellent for a cheap DMM

The way I read this, your claim is the 17B+ has the same internals as the 15B.    No problem if I misunderstood.  Just wanted to make it clear that it is a new design.

When it specified +3 counts, it is a bit confusing. It really means ±3 counts. Why they don't say it that way I don't know. So it really is ±80mv allowable error on the 40V scale.

I guess the ink for the  "/-" added too much cost to the manual.  I saw it was +3 counts on their website as well.  So, let's then assume this meter is within their spec.   Still surprised it is off by this much.   I was thinking it would be right down the center.    Fairly deadly on all other modes.   

Hi,

Has anyone a tool to make a digital alignment?

I thought about getting the 15B+ to test.   It was a little less expensive.    If the boards really are the same, I would assume the 15B+ will fail around the same level as the 17B+.   

Seems like Fluke would make this tool available to the cal houses.   I was going to look into if Brymen offers the tools as well.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: retiredcaps on November 29, 2015, 10:13:16 am
At 10VDC, my 15B+ reads 9.87, or -130mV error
At 40VDC, my 15B+ reads 39.52, or -480mV error, thats nearly a half a Volt!! :--
1) What are the specifications for your 10V and 40V reference? 
2) Are you using a variable power supply set at 10V and 40V for comparison to the Fluke?
3) If you hook another meter to the same 10V and 40V reference source, what readings do you get?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on November 29, 2015, 06:27:26 pm
If lightages is correct and the spec is wrong (which makes more sense), at 40 volts you could have as much as +/- 230mV. 

Using my bench meter as a reference, I set the supply to 40 volts and measure it with the 17B+ and got 39.83 or about 170mV of error not including the HP's contribution.   It seems alright but still surprised it is this far out.   Sorry about the dog hair.....
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: DG5SAY on November 30, 2015, 06:51:50 pm
At 10VDC, my 15B+ reads 9.87, or -130mV error
At 40VDC, my 15B+ reads 39.52, or -480mV error, thats nearly a half a Volt!! :--
1) What are the specifications for your 10V and 40V reference? 
2) Are you using a variable power supply set at 10V and 40V for comparison to the Fluke?
3) If you hook another meter to the same 10V and 40V reference source, what readings do you get?

1): 0.005% at VDC, good enough for a 15B+
2): no, the voltage is comming direct out of a Fluke 5100A
3): see pictures
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2015, 07:05:30 pm
And yes, the 15B+ is also aligned digitally, not with pots, the older 15B has a pot to align.

Has anyone a tool to make a digital alignment?

It wouldn't surprise me if Fluke deliberately doesn't calibrate them perfectly. It would really eat into 87V sales if they did.  :popcorn:

PS: I was just searching the web and can't find anybody reverse engineering the calibration.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 01, 2015, 01:39:53 am
1): 0.005% at VDC, good enough for a 15B+
2): no, the voltage is comming direct out of a Fluke 5100A
3): see pictures

Wow!   I am curious how tight it is in the other modes.   By far, the DC volts was off the furthest with the 17B+ I have. 

And yes, the 15B+ is also aligned digitally, not with pots, the older 15B has a pot to align.

Has anyone a tool to make a digital alignment?

It wouldn't surprise me if Fluke deliberately doesn't calibrate them perfectly. It would really eat into 87V sales if they did.  :popcorn:

PS: I was just searching the web and can't find anybody reverse engineering the calibration.

I doubt it would hurt the sales of the 87V too much.   The 87V has a bar graph and RMS which the 17B+ does not.   Even so, people are going to buy what they want.  The 87V is popular.  You want to be part of the crowd don't you?   

Testing for the 17B+ has started.   Because I have only the one meter to test, I hope to do a better job with the video.  Taking a little more time with it and making it more of a review.     
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: retiredcaps on December 01, 2015, 09:54:27 am
3): see pictures
Wow, the 15B+ is way out of spec (0.5% + 3 digits) at 9.84 and 39.40.  Definitely  :--

4) Was the 15B+ out of spec since day 1, brand new, or has this meter drifted over time?

off topic: I like the bigger digits compared to the 87V.

PS. I had to ask regarding your references because I had no idea what you had.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 01, 2015, 05:39:14 pm
Well, it's been a long two day blitz of nothing but 17B+ testing.  The video is being uploaded now.   I made it more of a review and compared it with what I think would be a similar product from a different brand.   All in all, it's not a bad meter. 

I found a mistake in the spreadsheet as well that I have corrected when I added the results for the 17B+.   I have also added a second page for the continuity tests I have done.     

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 01, 2015, 06:11:03 pm
Before I forget, I thought I saw a very strange condition when using the 17B+.   It was after one of the tests and I was verifying that the meter was functional.   What I though I had happen was I had it get into a state where the the RED warning light came on and stuck with a very small signal applied.   I tried to reproduce it with no luck.   Maybe not enough coffee or not enough sleep.   :-// 

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: DG5SAY on December 01, 2015, 06:52:37 pm
3): see pictures
Wow, the 15B+ is way out of spec (0.5% + 3 digits) at 9.84 and 39.40.  Definitely  :--

4) Was the 15B+ out of spec since day 1, brand new, or has this meter drifted over time?

off topic: I like the bigger digits compared to the 87V.

PS. I had to ask regarding your references because I had no idea what you had.

4): it was out of spec "since day 1"! I own it now for 6 months and it has not changed since then.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 02, 2015, 12:10:57 am
Here is my 17B+ review/test.   It's long....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvC5woDYGd4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvC5woDYGd4&feature=youtu.be)

DG5SAY, are all of the other functions in-cal?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on December 02, 2015, 01:34:19 am
Here is my 17B+ review/test.   It's long....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvC5woDYGd4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvC5woDYGd4&feature=youtu.be)

DG5SAY, are all of the other functions in-cal?

Starts the video saying, I'm not going to do a full review....

Does a full review :-DD

That being said, nice review so far. Still watching/listening to it as I work on a document for work.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: DG5SAY on December 02, 2015, 02:55:59 am
Here is my 17B+ review/test.   It's long....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvC5woDYGd4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvC5woDYGd4&feature=youtu.be)

DG5SAY, are all of the other functions in-cal?

ACV is also out of spec (see my attachment in reply # 618), the other functions I have not yet thoroughly checked
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: retiredcaps on December 02, 2015, 03:25:21 am
4): it was out of spec "since day 1"! I own it now for 6 months and it has not changed since then.
I'm surprised you didn't ask for a replacement or refund from seller if it was out of calibration since day 1?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: DG5SAY on December 02, 2015, 06:40:34 am
4): it was out of spec "since day 1"! I own it now for 6 months and it has not changed since then.
I'm surprised you didn't ask for a replacement or refund from seller if it was out of calibration since day 1?

Sure, I did. But first, they don´t believe me. When I sent them my measurements, they offered me to exchange the multimeter. I should have sent it, however, at my own costs to China, clearly that I neither the device nor the money would have seen again! So I made a negative review and will never buy anything again from this eBay-Shop. End of the story.  :--

It is a multimeter produced exclusive for the chinese market. F... these chinese multimeter. I will buy from a german dealer with german guarantee only. From an offical german Fluke dealer this cheap 15/17B+ models are not available.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: vinicius.jlantunes on December 02, 2015, 10:08:09 am
Well not only China I can assure you. Other non prime markets such as Brazil as well. That's how I got mine from the authorized distributor, and it came with a cal certificate. And most surprisingly, it is made in USA as far as I can tell!
So long story short, yours could be bad but it doesn't make all of them bad. It's still a fluke and miles ahead at least of all other crap available around here.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 02, 2015, 04:18:56 pm
Here is my 17B+ review/test.   It's long....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvC5woDYGd4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvC5woDYGd4&feature=youtu.be)

DG5SAY, are all of the other functions in-cal?

Starts the video saying, I'm not going to do a full review....

Does a full review :-DD

That being said, nice review so far. Still watching/listening to it as I work on a document for work.

Thanks.   Dave and 5Ky's meter reviews go into other areas that I choose not to.  If there is something you would like to see that I did not cover, let me know.     

Had the the 17B+ had a crest feature or a bar graph, I would have shown them off as well.  I did not show the manual but there was not an English version included.  I also did not give a conclusion in the end.   I thought about just putting the original generator back to when it was used to test the Fluke 101 but if the 17B+ failed, we would not know how close it was.   So give me some time to sort out my next move and then I will do a part 2.     

In the mean time, look what showed up.   I know I swore I would not waste my time on another UNI-T.  When I was updating the spreadsheet and I saw number of thumbs down was about the same as the thumbs up for this video.   I see the thumbs down as a good thing as it means it's a popular meter.  Sadly, there was no good feedback.  However,  it was the only other meter besides the 87V where I was not sure at what level it failed.   Just for completeness, I decided to rerun the test using the new setup.   

The last two that 5KY sent were the UT61D and E.  These meters could not even survive the piezo  grill ignitor test.   You should see some of the ESD we get when winter comes and the house is dry...  So I am not sure yet what I am going to do with this one.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2015, 05:04:35 pm
Sure, I did. But first, they don´t believe me. When I sent them my measurements, they offered me to exchange the multimeter. I should have sent it, however, at my own costs to China, clearly that I neither the device nor the money would have seen again! So I made a negative review and will never buy anything again from this eBay-Shop. End of the story.  :--

Sounds like you and the seller both had bad luck. What would you have done if you were the seller trying to sell multimeters with only one or two dollars profit margin?

PS: What happens if you turn the little trimmer next to the calibration connector? Does anybody know?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: DG5SAY on December 02, 2015, 06:42:40 pm
Sure, I did. But first, they don´t believe me. When I sent them my measurements, they offered me to exchange the multimeter. I should have sent it, however, at my own costs to China, clearly that I neither the device nor the money would have seen again! So I made a negative review and will never buy anything again from this eBay-Shop. End of the story.  :--

Sounds like you and the seller both had bad luck. What would you have done if you were the seller trying to sell multimeters with only one or two dollars profit margin?

PS: What happens if you turn the little trimmer next to the calibration connector? Does anybody know?

And yes you´re right, that´s why I don´t struggle with them. It is not worth my time.

There is NO trimmer total in a 15B+! Only the 17B+ has a trimmer, I think it´s for temperature calibration.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 04, 2015, 03:14:09 pm
Well, the 17B+ failed tonight.   I was pushing it pretty hard.   It looks like I may be able to repair it but will need to order parts.   I am impressed with how robust all three of the low end Fluke meters I have looked at.     
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 05, 2015, 06:02:06 pm
I just finished the video showing the conclusion of my 17B+.   I'll upload the new spreadsheet later on in the day. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiiii0gdcbM&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiiii0gdcbM&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 07, 2015, 03:42:00 am
Ah.... The smell of good coffee and burnt UNI-T parts in the morning...   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on December 07, 2015, 06:10:56 am
Ah.... The smell of good coffee and burnt UNI-T parts in the morning...
:-DD
Oh dear, at least they're consistant.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 07, 2015, 02:35:51 pm
Return of the UT139C.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFvuigSS2Xk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFvuigSS2Xk)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 09, 2015, 12:41:34 pm
Second half of my 139C testing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-VaE1Gn1Nw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-VaE1Gn1Nw)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 11, 2015, 02:03:35 pm
When I got the Brymen BM869s, I made a few videos where I was comparing  it with a few Flukes.  One was the 115.  I did not know it was made in China until it arrived and I looked at the packaging.  With it being a little older, I wonder if it will be less robust.       

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on December 11, 2015, 02:48:25 pm
When I got the Brymen BM869s, I made a few videos where I was comparing  it with a few Flukes.  One was the 115.  I did not know it was made in China until it arrived and I looked at the packaging.  With it being a little older, I wonder if it will be less robust.     
Will a 115 be next on the bench Joe?
Check to see if it too has that Gawd awful calibration connection like the 17+  :-- , you want to be able to tweak your DMM too, don't you?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 11, 2015, 03:23:40 pm
When I got the Brymen BM869s, I made a few videos where I was comparing  it with a few Flukes.  One was the 115.  I did not know it was made in China until it arrived and I looked at the packaging.  With it being a little older, I wonder if it will be less robust.     
Will a 115 be next on the bench Joe?
Check to see if it too has that Gawd awful calibration connection like the 17+  :-- , you want to be able to tweak your DMM too, don't you?
Yes, my plan is to run the 115 to failure next.  If people find it helpful, rather than just running the tests I'll continue to do some sort of mini review of them to at least show how they compare against some of the surviving meters.

As long as the equipment does not drift too much, or the factory has a way to align them in this country, no big deal.  It is sort of funny that the one adjustment the 17B+ has is in the temperature circuit.  And what failed, the temperature circuit.  They knew I was going to need to tweak it. :-DD   

I will give you that the reason the Mastech and AMPROBES are so tight is because I took the time to align them.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 13, 2015, 11:38:20 pm
The Fluke 115, Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB0K5p7CgtE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB0K5p7CgtE)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 14, 2015, 12:44:33 am
Oops..... :palm:.....I haven't yet subscribed but we can soon fix that, a brilliant informative sequence of great videos, many thanks.... :-+

I have a couple of 117s and will need to check them again to see if there was any off mode current draw, I did test them once but cant remember and I religiously pull out the batteries when not in regular use, your 115 appeared to recover once the battery was removed and reinstalled the first time around but it may have been just a coincidence and something else altogether.

Kind regards.... :)

Muttley
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on December 14, 2015, 06:24:07 am
Hey Joe, I have several people on another forum that want to know the EXACT specs of your HF test that blew the leads off. Specifically, FWHM, source impedance, was it the HV spike only or did it include the AC load as well, etc. Any details you can provide would be great. I have already been told I have an axe to grind because I panned the HF meter  |O
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 14, 2015, 10:42:41 am
Oops..... :palm:.....I haven't yet subscribed but we can soon fix that, a brilliant informative sequence of great videos, many thanks.... :-+

I have a couple of 117s and will need to check them again to see if there was any off mode current draw, I did test them once but cant remember and I religiously pull out the batteries when not in regular use, your 115 appeared to recover once the battery was removed and reinstalled the first time around but it may have been just a coincidence and something else altogether.

Kind regards.... :)

Muttley

Thanks.   I have no idea what happened with the 115 during the testing.  If I were to guess, I think it caused a latchup condition in the control IC.   I would not be surprised at all if removing the battery is not was what caused it to recover.

To be clear, I wonder if they do not use for example safe state machines and the discharge caused it to go to an undefined state and hang, or if the device when metastable.  :-//   The way it somewhat still worked, I suspect it put it into an undefined state.   


Hey Joe, I have several people on another forum that want to know the EXACT specs of your HF test that blew the leads off. Specifically, FWHM, source impedance, was it the HV spike only or did it include the AC load as well, etc. Any details you can provide would be great. I have already been told I have an axe to grind because I panned the HF meter  |O

 :-DD I saw someone had asked about in the comments for the video as well.   They are always welcome to join the group.  You know what is funny about this?  When someone asked me to run another one, I had cut apart one of the probes from the other  ones to make my shorting stick for the first generator.   You see it in many of the videos.  It was very poorly made.   This made me think, I should run this meter with the leads.   I think this was the only time I really tried the leads that came with any meter.    Part of me was glad I did as it shows just what can happen with poor quality leads.    Imagine some high voltage wire flapping around in front of you!!   

I'm not sure why this would ever be a question.    As I said in the videos where I was making the second generator, I was targeting 400 joules.   I explained how I came up with that number as a goal.   All three generators use 2 ohms.  I pretty much gave up on the higher resistance values after the first rounds of testing.   Photonicinduction would laugh at that amount of energy but it's way higher than the sub 20 I had been using to test the meters.   

What would be fun is to put one on a real generator and see what happens!   Oh yea...... I think Fluke has some videos like that!  :-DD :-DD

At this time I have not added any testing with the line simulator to the spreadsheet.   All of the meters I have been looking at would not have a problem with it (well there is that UNI-T  >:D)

i like the details on the Hz response of the continuity and the hysteresis. +99pts ! :P

Thanks!  It makes a lot more sense to me as well versus just rubbing the leads together. 

The second half of the video is uploading and will be available shortly...
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 14, 2015, 11:15:05 am
The Fluke 115 part 2 of 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BOH4bapUnI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BOH4bapUnI)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 15, 2015, 10:33:46 am
I was looking at the two Fluke 115s I used for my reviews.   They look the same at a glance.... 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 15, 2015, 10:42:24 pm
It's more than the color....   Notice the ratings and serial numbers. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 15, 2015, 10:54:29 pm
Both "DESIGNED IN USA" but maybe they changed where they were made and corporate did not want to invest in having to re-certify them.    :-//       
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on December 15, 2015, 11:27:03 pm
Both "DESIGNED IN USA" but maybe they changed where they were made and corporate did not want to invest in having to re-certify them.    :-//     
I think it's possibly because they changed the regulations and they didn't want to change their input v protection to recertify. That would be my guess.

Either way, that is VERY disappointing for Fluke to do.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on December 16, 2015, 03:35:47 am
Compare the PCBs side by side and check revision numbers.  IMHO, its likely they'll be identical.  Fluke likely dropped certification marks of other agencies to save money; a mark cost about $5,000-10,000 each per year per model in production. 

With IEC specifying standards and worldwide testing agencies harmonized to IEC, one agency mark is good as another effectively, but government entities may be slow to recognize other marks.

In North America, CSA is preferred over UL now, as it costs ~ 1/2 of UL.  Drop UL, no need for both.

VDE and TUV are redundant for the EU market, and can't hurt to put a free CE mark.  So drop at least one.

TUV is recognized in North America, so TUV and CSA are redundant but CSA may not be recognized in the EU.

The 'check ' mark is for AUS/NZ use.

Noticeably absent are marks for sale in PRChina, and Korea.





It's more than the color....   Notice the ratings and serial numbers. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 16, 2015, 12:32:04 pm
If Fluke made a meter with the features and battery life of the BM869s, electrical robustness of the 107,  designed and made here in the USA and under 1K, I would be the first in line.   That's coming from someone who would never have owned another Fluke until I started trying to damage them.   :-DD   Hard to believe Fluke would not mark them over money but then again, times change.

Here's the donated Greenlee.   Looks like there are a few positive reviews on it:

http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-20-Ranging-Digital-Multimeter/dp/B000FRQO6C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450227983&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-20\
 (http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-20-Ranging-Digital-Multimeter/dp/B000FRQO6C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450227983&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-20\)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on December 16, 2015, 01:09:32 pm
If Fluke made a meter with the features and battery life of the BM869s, electrical robustness of the 107,  designed and made here in the USA and under 1K, I would be the first in line.   That's coming from someone who would never have owned another Fluke until I started trying to damage them.   :-DD   Hard to believe Fluke would not mark them over money but then again, times change.

Here's the donated Greenlee.   Looks like there are a few positive reviews on it:

http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-20-Ranging-Digital-Multimeter/dp/B000FRQO6C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450227983&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-20\
 (http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-20-Ranging-Digital-Multimeter/dp/B000FRQO6C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450227983&sr=8-1&keywords=greenlee+dm-20\)

An interesting looking meter, whats the COO?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 16, 2015, 01:28:47 pm
An interesting looking meter, whats the COO?

Cost?  I have no idea.  Looks like the next higher up that replaced it is around $30.   I assume it's a rebranded.  Made in China, but looks like they could afford a UL listing. 

What's interesting is that the fuse is still good.   

Will have to test it with their leads.  Last time I tried that with a cheap meter, it did not work out so well for the meter.    :-DD Should be interesting.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on December 16, 2015, 01:53:22 pm
An interesting looking meter, whats the COO?

Cost?  I have no idea.  Looks like the next higher up that replaced it is around $30.   I assume it's a rebranded.  Made in China, but looks like they could afford a UL listing. 

What's interesting is that the fuse is still good.   

Will have to test it with their leads.  Last time I tried that with a cheap meter, it did not work out so well for the meter.    :-DD Should be interesting.

COO = Country of Origin (which you answered).

I am intrigued to see a teardown and testing of this meter. It looks VERY different than anything out there. Kinda fat and chunky in a weird way.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: ModemHead on December 16, 2015, 03:04:36 pm
Here's the donated Greenlee.   Looks like there are a few positive reviews on it:

2000 count manual ranging, with the lowest ACV range being 200V, means the basic design is the same as your average "830" cheapie with a 7106 COB, maybe an extra opamp for continuity tester.  Interesting, I see that Greenlee de-rated the high ACV range down to 300V, most cheapies are marked 500, 600 or even 750V.  And omitted the usual hFE test socket.  Did they beef up the input protection as well?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 17, 2015, 12:15:57 am
COO = Country of Origin (which you answered).

I am intrigued to see a teardown and testing of this meter. It looks VERY different than anything out there. Kinda fat and chunky in a weird way.

I figured COO = Cost of Ownership.  In the end you had to spell it out anyway.   ROTFLMAO

2000 count manual ranging, with the lowest ACV range being 200V, means the basic design is the same as your average "830" cheapie with a 7106 COB, maybe an extra opamp for continuity tester.  Interesting, I see that Greenlee de-rated the high ACV range down to 300V, most cheapies are marked 500, 600 or even 750V.  And omitted the usual hFE test socket.  Did they beef up the input protection as well?

I looked at the manual last night.  Its available on Greenlee's site.  I saw that 300V max and laughed.   I like the 300 and 200 volt ranges.  :-DD   I assume the 300 was originally marked at the higher level.   

My plan going forward is to follow the same sort of format as the last few videos I made.  So I will go ahead and remove the board so we can see what it looks like before.   Any bets on the input? 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on December 17, 2015, 12:25:36 am
Here's the donated Greenlee.   Looks like there are a few positive reviews on it:

That thing looks horrible.  Awful screen. Range switch too small. Captive probes.   :scared:

I predict the insides will be terrible and it will fail on the barbecue-lighter test.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on December 17, 2015, 01:38:42 am
As a side story, I use DMMs often on metal hulled ships.  AC, even DC, is typically transient heavy enough to kill or severely injure DMMs, and I've experienced in use failures, but not explosions, with non-Fluke DMMs doing a typical measurement.  Fluke DMMs tend to dominate use on steel hulled vessels.  After Joe's test I've rerun some test myself and put the 101 seagoing conditions and its working very well, plus easier to pocket.  Equipment has to be very reliable if depended on and one is in the middle of the Pacific for stretches of time.  I've never seen side by side tests like Joe does here with different brands and models, and it clearly shows what you pay for. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on December 17, 2015, 01:58:05 am
As a side story, I use DMMs often on metal hulled ships.  AC, even DC, is typically transient heavy enough to kill or severely injure DMMs, and I've experienced in use failures, but not explosions, with non-Fluke DMMs doing a typical measurement.  Fluke DMMs tend to dominate use on steel hulled vessels.  After Joe's test I've rerun some test myself and put the 101 seagoing conditions and its working very well, plus easier to pocket.  Equipment has to be very reliable if depended on and one is in the middle of the Pacific for stretches of time.  I've never seen side by side tests like Joe does here with different brands and models, and it clearly shows what you pay for.
The Fluke 100 series seems quite unbeatable for reliable, safe, everyday usage (ie. non-EE work).

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on December 17, 2015, 02:19:10 am
Yes, my 101 does 90% of what I need in the field.  The 10% is mostly modified sine wave converters that are way off on averaging meters then I have to macgyver the measurement.

Joe easily shows Fluke's secret sauce, they will scrimp on functions, but they don't on surge protection even for their cheapest cataloged DMM [ I think as of this writing, its the 101].

The Fluke 100 series seems quite unbeatable for reliable, safe, everyday usage (ie. non-EE work).
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on December 17, 2015, 02:36:13 am
Joe easily shows Fluke's secret sauce, they will scrimp on functions, but they don't on surge protection even for their cheapest cataloged DMM [ I think as of this writing, its the 101].

Yep. They're ideal for 'electrician' work. They're also only about $43 (delivery included!) so there's no excuse.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 17, 2015, 05:21:02 am
As a side story, I use DMMs often on metal hulled ships.  AC, even DC, is typically transient heavy enough to kill or severely injure DMMs, and I've experienced in use failures, but not explosions, with non-Fluke DMMs doing a typical measurement. 

This is very interesting.  Could you provide more details about the cause of these transients and have you ever tried to characterize them? 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: saturation on December 17, 2015, 08:16:52 am
Yes!  Marine electricals need DMMs made for industrial settings.  Electric motors power cranes,lift, tools, equipment and the power inverters, alternators or generators supplying AC or DC are common culprits.  Modern ones start out fine, but they quickly deteriorate from the seaborn environment and start to pollute the surroundings fairly soon.  While the supplies are all isolated in ships noise can be coupled inductively to all the power wirings or radiated, and on older ships deteriorating insulation from accelerated wear from environmental exposure increase their noise potential: UV, hot sunlight mostly.  Common environmental killers are distant lightning strikes traveling on the top of the water column and heavy static from the environment, when in very dry air.  Radios, radar like systems have high pulse demands for power causing a lot of switching transients, if not RF noise in the general area.

Metal hulls act a bit like Faraday cages and help protect from noise, in practice its less that perfect and worst top side, and best when you're deep in the vessel.  Typical civilian vessels are fiberglass and offer less protection other than the conduits.

Note, ships are cleanest when at dock, most of the system could be shut off and many ships get AC from dockside connections, like an RV in a camp.  Its at sea when noise is greatest and need for reliability, highest.  Military ships with electronic warfare gear and carriers are even worse.

More details:

http://www.cedrat.com/fileadmin/user_upload/cedrat_groupe/Publications/Publications/2006/06/en51_Power_Quality_on_Electric_ships_PSCAD.pdf (http://www.cedrat.com/fileadmin/user_upload/cedrat_groupe/Publications/Publications/2006/06/en51_Power_Quality_on_Electric_ships_PSCAD.pdf)


The pdf is a brochure for a simulator of shipboard electrical system but it highlights the issues in more detail.

As a side story, I use DMMs often on metal hulled ships.  AC, even DC, is typically transient heavy enough to kill or severely injure DMMs, and I've experienced in use failures, but not explosions, with non-Fluke DMMs doing a typical measurement. 

This is very interesting.  Could you provide more details about the cause of these transients and have you ever tried to characterize them? 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 17, 2015, 10:17:02 am
Just finished reading it.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 17, 2015, 02:25:37 pm
hi joeqsmith
can i suggest doing a sideshow, to try whipping the surges at some protection components with your gear, the aim is that by modding say the UNI-T with additional tested MOV or TVS, it then passes your surge test ?

Do you have a circuit in mind?  If so, post the schematic and I'll see what I can do.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 17, 2015, 02:27:22 pm
So there I was tonight playing with this Greenlee meter and I notice that it appears to has some sort of backlight for the yellow knob.   It only comes on every now and then and I can't find details about it in the manual..   >:D
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 17, 2015, 04:03:26 pm
no i dont have circuit in mind. its just an idea because the UNI-T PCB always come with unpopulated MOV. if say by putting in the MOV, and it can stand up to some more surge, it could be good news for some DIY-ers who are interested to mod it but do not know the result for a real surge.

There are a few things you should consider.....

There are many many different MOVs in the world.   I would doubt they put it right across the inputs for example.  So even if you knew the MFG and PN for the MOV, hooking it to the generator is not going to tell you much.   

Even if you traced out that part of the circuit of the meter you are wanting to test, clearances would not be the same if I just threw something together.  If your goal is to test a specific meter with some changes, I think to really know what is going to happen we would use the real meter.   

Next is your statement about "...DIY-ers who are interested to mod it but do not know the result for a real surge."
First, let's talk "real surge".   Let's just assume that the IEC standards represent a real surge.  I have been involved with these tests from time to time.  Believe me, if something goes wrong there it can be a real thrill.   Even my little half cycle line simulator does not come close to the amount of energy we test to.   And believe me, with all the comments people have talked about safety and how the meters have never been shown to be unsafe during my tests, the last thing you want is for someone who has no clue to modify their own meter and then think it would survive these tests or worse, somehow be safe.    None of us want that.   This is why there are real labs that run these tests.

Its fun to look at some of the mods people have done to their handheld meters.  Some of those rat nests would light up on a real test and worse, after cutting holes in the case, may actually come apart.   No thanks...

If the goal is to "harden" the meters front end, I tried to show how to make an attenuator for a meter.  Once again, people started talking about safety, which was never the goal.  It is a good way to protect the meters front end.  That may be a better approach. 

That said, believe me, I know what you are getting at and you are not the first person to ask me about this. My advice is just buy a better meter if you are concerned about it.


Here's the donated Greenlee.   Looks like there are a few positive reviews on it:

That thing looks horrible.  Awful screen. Range switch too small. Captive probes.   :scared:

I predict the insides will be terrible and it will fail on the barbecue-lighter test.



 :-DD :-DD :-DD  You sir are a psychic!!!  I have finished my testing on the Greenlee and hope to have the video and updated spreadsheet in the next day or so.    Now about that backlight feature.....

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 18, 2015, 03:09:52 pm
I was looking at a Newport HHM290 meter today.  What caught my eye was it measures inductance.  Then I noticed the two thermocouple inputs plus IR temperature.   Strange that they did not autorange everything.  It make the BM869s look small if that's even possible. 
 
http://www.newport.ca/Pdf/HHM290.pdf (http://www.newport.ca/Pdf/HHM290.pdf)

For those who are interested in knowing how the Greenlee DM-20 held up during my tests, enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIQuk0E6wdU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIQuk0E6wdU&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on December 19, 2015, 02:38:21 am
I was looking at a Newport HHM290 meter today.  What caught my eye was it measures inductance.  Then I noticed the two thermocouple inputs plus IR temperature.   Strange that they did not autorange everything.  It make the BM869s look small if that's even possible. 
 
http://www.newport.ca/Pdf/HHM290.pdf (http://www.newport.ca/Pdf/HHM290.pdf)

For those who are interested in knowing how the Greenlee DM-20 held up during my tests, enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIQuk0E6wdU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIQuk0E6wdU&feature=youtu.be)

Proved to be an interesting test.

SL is the circuit board manufacturer, according to UL the E234156 (http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=ZPMV2.E234156&ccnshorttitle=Wiring,+Printed+-+Component&objid=1076390468&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073814637&sequence=1) references "SHEN ZHEN SUN & LYNN CIRCUITS CO LTD". That would be your SL. Unfortunately, they are just the board maker, not the designer of the instrument. 94V-0 is a safety marking related to flammability (or lack thereof) if I remember correctly.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 19, 2015, 10:52:55 pm
Good info Pedro.   It's just a guess that it was re-branded. 

I was a bit surprised by the amount of sparks that came out of it.  I did not mention it during the video but I did check the leads after the last test and they were fine.  Held up better than the HF meter's leads.   

It would be good to know if the meter had a problem.  The continuity test threshold being so high and that the diode check did not work, I suspect there was a problem with the source.  The original owner told me he used used it for a volt meter only, so I doubt very much that these features are something that was ever used.   May have been bad from the factory.

The spreadsheet has been updated to include this meter.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on December 21, 2015, 05:50:25 pm
Joe, after downloading your spreadsheet, it is not clear just what each of the cell pass/fails represent.  :-//
Does it need a tweak or must we refer to your vids to understand what each test is?

Members often ask of DMM recommendations, must they watch all your vids?
Maybe a short further vid in the OP to just explain your methodology and spreadsheet results.

Can I also say it seems obvious (at least to me) that the thread title has many overlook the excellent work you have done, but maybe not so with the addition of DMM in the title.  :-\

Tell me to F off if you must, it is YOUR thread.  ;)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on December 21, 2015, 06:20:18 pm
Joe, after downloading your spreadsheet, it is not clear just what each of the cell pass/fails represent.  :-//

"Fail" = Magic smoke escaped at the specified voltage.

Members often ask of DMM recommendations, must they watch all your vids?

You could try watching one of them...  :-//

PS: They're not 'recommendations'. It only measures one tiny aspect of a multimeter (resistance to sparks).
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on December 21, 2015, 07:25:08 pm
Joe, after downloading your spreadsheet, it is not clear just what each of the cell pass/fails represent.  :-//

"Fail" = Magic smoke escaped at the specified voltage.

Members often ask of DMM recommendations, must they watch all your vids?

You could try watching one of them...  :-//

PS: They're not 'recommendations'. It only measures one tiny aspect of a multimeter (resistance to sparks).
|O  :palm:
When I opened the spreadsheet FIRST time the Column titles DID NOT appear, hence the reason for my post.
All good now.  :-+

I've watched them ALL.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on December 21, 2015, 08:17:18 pm
|O  :palm:
When I opened the spreadsheet FIRST time the Column titles DID NOT appear, hence the reason for my post.
All good now.  :-+

 :-DD
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 22, 2015, 02:32:34 am
 :-DD   Glad you figured it out. 

I will be the first to admit there may be a better way to present the data in the spreadsheet.    If anyone has a way to format it that they feel would make things more clear to the reader, feel free to post it.   I am not at all apposed to changing it.

I had though about moving the original round I tests to it's own page so the main page just has the format that I plan to use moving forward.

Can I also say it seems obvious (at least to me) that the thread title has many overlook the excellent work you have done, but maybe not so with the addition of DMM in the title.  :-\
This has came up from time to time but no one has offered what they feel is a better suited title. 


PS: They're not 'recommendations'. It only measures one tiny aspect of a multimeter (resistance to sparks).

One?

1) Continuity, short detection resistance
2) Continuity, open detection resistance
3) Continuity, short circuit current
4) Continuity, open circuit voltage
5) Continuity, max frequency using a 50% duty cycle before meter misses beats
6) Continuity, min pulse width the meter can detect
7) ESD, 5 +/- transients in each mode using a piezo grill ignitor
8) DC withstand voltage, meter is supplied its maximum specified DC voltage, sometimes higher  :-DD
9) 220 VAC line, meter is supplied with a full wave rectified 220V signal with the mode switch being rotated
10) Low voltage low energy surge test, up to 5KV 100us FWHH 2 ohm source, limited to less than 20J
11) High voltage low energy surge test, up to 12KV 50us FWHH 2 ohm source, limited to less than 20J

If I stay with the current format, there are other tests going on as well like basic accuracy, comparing them with other meters in their class or price range.   I showed the NCV feature of the UT139C for example.   If I continue to test meters, I am sure the test methods will improve along with the tests performed.     

And if that is not enough, now we get to see what can happen when some of these crappy meters breakdown with a higher energy source attached.  It does not answer the question if a meter is safe or not but for the people who post that the meters were not shown to be unsafe during the tests at sub 20 joules, it does give viewers some indication of what a small amount of energy could do to a meter.   

Just an FYI, testing one meter like the 115 where it survives takes about 10 hours not including the editing time.   :palm:   The Greenlee still took about 8 hours from start to finish. 

There are many tests others have done that really do not interest me.  Two tests I would like to run are DC temperature drift and RF susceptibility.  Both way outside of what I could do at home.   

This may help you with your counting skills
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtiMNzGAl6w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtiMNzGAl6w)

 :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on December 22, 2015, 05:47:10 am
Joe, I thought just the addition of "DMM" would enable more hits from a forum search:

Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld DMM surge tests.

Anyway, I'll butt out now, please carry on with what history will show as magnificent work.  :-+
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 22, 2015, 06:43:19 am
Joe, I thought just the addition of "DMM" would enable more hits from a forum search:

Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld DMM surge tests.

Anyway, I'll butt out now, please carry on with what history will show as magnificent work.  :-+

 :-+

One member mentioned they could not read the entire title due to screen wraps.  I think I made it even longer when I added the DMM part.   We call that being customer led.  :-DD

A few people have asked about why it's not sticky and the fact that it is not I believe is the answer to how it is perceived.

Consider that even if the meters were being supplied to me for free (which thanks to 5ky / TechnologyCatalyst many were), they can not be resold after they are tested and have no value.  I would not even risk giving the working ones away after they have been stressed. 

So believe me, this has never been about making a profit!  :-DD   Even if I turned on the youtube ads, maybe I could buy a new Harbor Freight free meter?  :-DD   Its more been interesting for me to see just how wide of a spectrum there is in the robustness of the meters, even within the same brand.   

So don't look for it to go down in the history books unless you're looking on the basement floor in a back corner somewhere.  :-DD 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 27, 2015, 08:49:14 am
After six years of use, my Mastech MS9508 / Cen-tech P37772 LCD was starting to become intermittent. 

Notice that the LCD is starting to pop out.  The On and Hold buttons are letting some photons escape.  Sparks are coming from the transistor test socket.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: tautech on December 27, 2015, 09:32:41 am
After six years of use, my Mastech MS9508 / Cen-tech P37772 LCD was starting to become intermittent. 

Notice that the LCD is starting to pop out.  The On and Hold buttons are letting some photons escape.  Sparks are coming from the transistor test socket.
:-DD
No holidays for you and your surge tester.  >:D
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 27, 2015, 12:22:12 pm
:-DD
No holidays for you and your surge tester.  >:D

Consider the video a gift.

It's amazing just how complicated this meter is.  I got a lot of use out of this meter over the last six years and if the display wasn't becoming intermittent again,  I would have kept using it.   

It's a manual range meter and would take a fair amount of time to run a full test, so instead I just did a quick teardown, functional and hit it with the half cycle line simulator.   

What meter to fun first in 2016?   Would like to see that Keysight GDT protection in action

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKgK8qbuREk&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKgK8qbuREk&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: rsjsouza on December 27, 2015, 02:00:27 pm
joe, thanks for sharing - great christmas gift. One small detail that may increase your audience: on the video title, change the model of the meter from MS9508 to M9508.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Stupid Beard on December 27, 2015, 09:17:17 pm
What meter to fun first in 2016?   Would like to see that Keysight GDT protection in action

Maybe not the first meter, but it'd be nice to see a BM257 run at some point. You've run a lot of lower end Flukes and compared them to your BM869 as a comparison to Brymen meters, but it seems to me that a BM257 or similar would be a fairer comparison in terms of price range / size / etc.

Thanks for the videos. I've been watching them from the beginning and it will be interesting to see what survives in 2016.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on December 28, 2015, 12:24:33 am
I just was thinking that instead of blowiing up a bunch of more meters, why not run a video on the protection devices that can be found inside. Run a PTC or two, some MOVs, gas discharge tubes, etc. This would give easy subjects to video, and some fun fireworks perhaps. It would also be much cheaper and easier to video. This would help illustrate the actual safety of the safety devices themselves.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: SeanB on December 28, 2015, 01:02:34 am
I have a feeling the larger GDT devices will survive the test, but the other protective devices will certainly fail. The more common larger GDT devices will absorb enough energy to clamp a spike down to 1kV even if the spike is a direct lightning hit. The traces will vapourise, but the GDT will still be there unbroken in the carnage. Seen that in plenty of telecoms applications, where you find the green module blackened and burned, with nothing left of the incoming wiring, the IDC Krone socket, the PCB holding the GDT units or the earth wire, unless you used 10mm cable for it. About 10% chance the PBX after it has survived unscathed, they generally blow all the line cards, power supply and any extension card that ran into the incoming frame. The phones however typically will survive, unless they were in use when the lightning hit.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 28, 2015, 04:22:21 am
What meter to fun first in 2016?   Would like to see that Keysight GDT protection in action

Maybe not the first meter, but it'd be nice to see a BM257 run at some point. You've run a lot of lower end Flukes and compared them to your BM869 as a comparison to Brymen meters, but it seems to me that a BM257 or similar would be a fairer comparison in terms of price range / size / etc.

Thanks for the videos. I've been watching them from the beginning and it will be interesting to see what survives in 2016.

Brymen makes some nice looking meters.   I looked at the manual for this one.   It's not very expensive.     

I have a feeling the larger GDT devices will survive the test, but the other protective devices will certainly fail. The more common larger GDT devices will absorb enough energy to clamp a spike down to 1kV even if the spike is a direct lightning hit. The traces will vapourise, but the GDT will still be there unbroken in the carnage. Seen that in plenty of telecoms applications, where you find the green module blackened and burned, with nothing left of the incoming wiring, the IDC Krone socket, the PCB holding the GDT units or the earth wire, unless you used 10mm cable for it. About 10% chance the PBX after it has survived unscathed, they generally blow all the line cards, power supply and any extension card that ran into the incoming frame. The phones however typically will survive, unless they were in use when the lightning hit.

Looking at the Keysight, if the waveform has a fast leading edge, will it damage other components before the GDT responds?  I would have expected to see something like small MOVs or transorbs on the Keysight meter to handle this.  Maybe they are there or maybe they are not needed.   The other thing I don't like is how they latch until the energy dissipates.   In Dave's video (again hard to tell for sure) looked like they have two stages.   If the first R fails short and the GDT is tuned on we now have a very low impedance path.  All that energy from the line is would now be going through the meter and leads.   Once it starts to breakdown, seems like it could go bad fast.   Normally when I have damaged MOVs with a surge (not my toy setup) they will short, then open up.   :-//     Would really like to see a schematic of the front end and run it against the other meters. 

Keysight may not care if the meter is damaged as long as it does not present a hazard.   Personally, I would want the meter to survive the 6KV like all of the low cost Flukes, the Brymen BM769s and 5KYs Radioshack.   

I just was thinking that instead of blowiing up a bunch of more meters, why not run a video on the protection devices that can be found inside. Run a PTC or two, some MOVs, gas discharge tubes, etc. This would give easy subjects to video, and some fun fireworks perhaps. It would also be much cheaper and easier to video. This would help illustrate the actual safety of the safety devices themselves.


I am still open for ideas.   My response is below.   

no i dont have circuit in mind. its just an idea because the UNI-T PCB always come with unpopulated MOV. if say by putting in the MOV, and it can stand up to some more surge, it could be good news for some DIY-ers who are interested to mod it but do not know the result for a real surge.

There are a few things you should consider.....

There are many many different MOVs in the world.   I would doubt they put it right across the inputs for example.  So even if you knew the MFG and PN for the MOV, hooking it to the generator is not going to tell you much.   

Even if you traced out that part of the circuit of the meter you are wanting to test, clearances would not be the same if I just threw something together.  If your goal is to test a specific meter with some changes, I think to really know what is going to happen we would use the real meter.   

Next is your statement about "...DIY-ers who are interested to mod it but do not know the result for a real surge."
First, let's talk "real surge".   Let's just assume that the IEC standards represent a real surge.  I have been involved with these tests from time to time.  Believe me, if something goes wrong there it can be a real thrill.   Even my little half cycle line simulator does not come close to the amount of energy we test to.   And believe me, with all the comments people have talked about safety and how the meters have never been shown to be unsafe during my tests, the last thing you want is for someone who has no clue to modify their own meter and then think it would survive these tests or worse, somehow be safe.    None of us want that.   This is why there are real labs that run these tests.

Its fun to look at some of the mods people have done to their handheld meters.  Some of those rat nests would light up on a real test and worse, after cutting holes in the case, may actually come apart.   No thanks...

If the goal is to "harden" the meters front end, I tried to show how to make an attenuator for a meter.  Once again, people started talking about safety, which was never the goal.  It is a good way to protect the meters front end.  That may be a better approach. 

That said, believe me, I know what you are getting at and you are not the first person to ask me about this. My advice is just buy a better meter if you are concerned about it.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: SeanB on December 28, 2015, 05:01:21 am
A little info on GDT and usage and turn on.

http://www.citel.us/gas_discharge_tubes_overview.html (http://www.citel.us/gas_discharge_tubes_overview.html)

Littelfuse datasheet, they are probably the devices installed.

http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/product_catalogs/littelfuse_gdt_catalog.pdf.pdf (http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/product_catalogs/littelfuse_gdt_catalog.pdf.pdf)

they are rated to handle a pulse with a risetime of 1kV/us, so turn on is pretty fast. Failure is by going open circuit on the 2 terminal devices, though you do get safety ones that have a shorting bar that fails the device as a short circuit when it is ruptured.

Page 10 shows that it pretty much is turning on after around 300ns of the transient being applied, most of this probably due to lead inductance. They tend to stay on until the voltage drops below the holding voltage of around 140V, though they can easily clamp at over 1kV on a high energy pulse limiting the downstream side to that. Probably that is why they use 2 in series, so the voltage is clamped hard by the second stage to the breakover voltage of the second device.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 28, 2015, 06:28:46 am
A little info on GDT and usage and turn on.

http://www.citel.us/gas_discharge_tubes_overview.html (http://www.citel.us/gas_discharge_tubes_overview.html)

Littelfuse datasheet, they are probably the devices installed.

http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/product_catalogs/littelfuse_gdt_catalog.pdf.pdf (http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/product_catalogs/littelfuse_gdt_catalog.pdf.pdf)

they are rated to handle a pulse with a risetime of 1kV/us, so turn on is pretty fast. Failure is by going open circuit on the 2 terminal devices, though you do get safety ones that have a shorting bar that fails the device as a short circuit when it is ruptured.

Page 10 shows that it pretty much is turning on after around 300ns of the transient being applied, most of this probably due to lead inductance. They tend to stay on until the voltage drops below the holding voltage of around 140V, though they can easily clamp at over 1kV on a high energy pulse limiting the downstream side to that. Probably that is why they use 2 in series, so the voltage is clamped hard by the second stage to the breakover voltage of the second device.
:-+

Can't imagine having a GDT directly across the inputs of a handheld.   While many devices are rated to handle the surge test, you would need to look at the whole system not just one component.   In Dave's video on the Keysight meter, it looks like they have it in the divider as you would expect.    I have no idea what parts they used.  They may switch at under 100 volts for all I know.   While a  few hundred ns may not seem like a lot of time, consider what it takes to protect the down stream circuits.   One thing the GDTs have going for them is very low capacitance.   

While you are doing your research, you may want to have a look at the Bourns application notes as well for GDTs.  These are pretty good from what I remember.   

This paper gives some general information on protection. 
http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/TND335-D.PDF (http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/TND335-D.PDF)

Looking at the meters I have tested, the one thing you can't count on is the PCB.  I have seen a lot of what I would consider unintentional spark gaps in the layouts.  :-DD   Looking at 5ky's Innova, I doubt they ever thought about clearance from the circuitry on the PCB to the shield.   But, it seems like it could be important.   :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3fYVaXz8lVk#t=254 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3fYVaXz8lVk#t=254)

This was another one of 5ky's meters where the PCB was doing a very good job protecting some of the circuitry while I was testing at lower energy levels.   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9ii55eHfUWY#t=378 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9ii55eHfUWY#t=378)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: SeanB on December 28, 2015, 07:22:44 am
The series resistance on the input does look like it will at least attenuate the pulse, though the survival of the resistor is not guaranteed, so it has a blast shield to keep the pieces more or less together. Then they cascade that again so it is likely it will safely absorb the pulse without blowing up, though the chances of it surviving are not that good it will at least absorb the test pulse. Low capacitance is a major advantage over a MOV, and the residual capacitance will likely help as well.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on December 28, 2015, 09:12:17 am
PS: They're not 'recommendations'. It only measures one tiny aspect of a multimeter (resistance to sparks).

One?

OK, more than one...  :-[
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 28, 2015, 09:28:10 am
The series resistance on the input does look like it will at least attenuate the pulse, though the survival of the resistor is not guaranteed, so it has a blast shield to keep the pieces more or less together. Then they cascade that again so it is likely it will safely absorb the pulse without blowing up, though the chances of it surviving are not that good it will at least absorb the test pulse. Low capacitance is a major advantage over a MOV, and the residual capacitance will likely help as well.

Agree, it has to help.  At least it will limit the current.  I would have expected that second stage to have a small MOV.  My guess is they have some other clamps further down the chain to protect the sensitive parts.   

I thought about getting their low end U1232A.  It's CAT III 600 and I would hope would survive at least as well as the Brymen.  When you look at this review, they have some small package GDTs in there.   From all of my tests I have not seen an MOV fail however, some of the PTCs and in rare cases the high voltage resistors have.
I doubt these smaller package GDTs would fail.  My concern would be ICs, diodes, transistors that are down stream from it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RYFlHDNA1aA#t=1040 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RYFlHDNA1aA#t=1040)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 28, 2015, 09:33:28 am
PS: They're not 'recommendations'. It only measures one tiny aspect of a multimeter (resistance to sparks).

One?

OK, more than one...  :-[

Just having a little fun with you.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 31, 2015, 11:55:50 am
Looking closer at Dave's video, I am not sure what the GDTs they used are.  Appear to be marked 2000 1411.  Littlefuse has a SL1411A series but they are not rated for the sort of voltage needed.  They also don't use blue lettering on white from what I have seen.   Maybe it's custom.   2000 maybe a 2KV breakdown.  This would be in the  ballpark.   Dave did a video showing a insulation tester.  He could use that to at least determine where the tube fires.   

Looks like two separate circuits.  Both use an R, PTC, GDT.   Makes sense.   Would really like to have some values for the R and PTC as well.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on December 31, 2015, 10:49:55 pm
Video showing a simple protection circuit based on a production meter using a R, PTC and MOV.    The MOV is then replaced with a GDT.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYCGnYglRjY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYCGnYglRjY)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: SeanB on December 31, 2015, 11:36:08 pm
I would guess they put in some secondary protection, to handle the initial pulse and either clip it using a series resistor further down, with a SMD MOV that is going to handle the limited energy easily, or a simple diode clamp to either a power rail or a zener clamp. Once the spike has been clamped the residual low voltage will be easy to handle.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 01, 2016, 12:45:06 pm
Every meter I have looked at that has survived has some type of down stream protection.   With the Keysight meter,   we don't know what the entire circuit is nor do we know how it would stack up against all of the other meters.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 04, 2016, 11:18:21 am
http://www.amazon.com/Morris-59050Vage-Continuity-Tester-12-300V/dp/B005BH6HRM (http://www.amazon.com/Morris-59050Vage-Continuity-Tester-12-300V/dp/B005BH6HRM)

So your touching the side metal contact with your body and jamming it into a live circuit? 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on January 04, 2016, 11:31:48 am
Yup, just like those neon lamp live circuit testers.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 04, 2016, 12:08:17 pm
I see an opening and excuse to post these pictures, no teardown was required as it seemed to be an incorporated feature..... :palm:

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 04, 2016, 01:01:57 pm
I see an opening and excuse to post these pictures, no teardown was required as it seemed to be an incorporated feature..... :palm:
  Nice!   I bet where the leads solder in would jump.  Maybe if we were lucky, it would go from the red trace to the neon bulb first, then to the black for some added excitement.    :-DD     Then the leads look like they would light up.   

Sound like Lightages has one that uses the humans body to complete the circuit rather than the leads.  Any pictures of this one?

The one I have is marked P-85.  Its rated for 12 - 440 volts AC/DC.   The Morris Products 59050  looks like it and is rated for 440 as well.   

It uses a couple of A76 button batteries.  No power switch.   It detects continuity around 6Meg.  Solid on at 2Meg.  Short circuit current is about 500nA.   If you supply 220VRMS to the across the inputs, the current is about 4.9uA   I tried the piezo grill starter then maxed out the new generator on it but it would not breakdown.   :--  That was with nothing in series.     So I used the old generator set to 12KV and it still works.     

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 05, 2016, 05:01:50 am
While looking for something with neon bulbs that goes through the human body, I came across this UNI-T CAT IV 600V rated and another banned member.    :-DD 

Could this be the 1st UNI-T that can actually survive on the new generator?   I think we will find out..
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/%28-product-review-%29-uni-t-ut15c-volt-stick-ip65-cat-iv-600v/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/%28-product-review-%29-uni-t-ut15c-volt-stick-ip65-cat-iv-600v/)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 05, 2016, 12:23:13 pm
I had been asked about running a Vichy VC99. Unless anyone is aware of a Vichy meter that is CAT III 600 rated, I can't see a reason to try one.  I would need to change the impedance and have a new section just for CAT II class or just run it with the 2 ohm source.  The CAT III meters have a hard enough time surviving. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 08, 2016, 01:33:30 pm
2016 is starting out on a good note.  A new camera has been added to the mix.    A GGT (glass gas discharge tube) has been added to the test jig.   Will it survive the half cycle line test?  Will it even survive the basic test?  Sure looks pretty delicate. 

The first of three new meters arrived today.  Hint, it's a brand I have never ran,  costs more than a shot of Dewars 18 year old scotch at the bar,  uses gas discharge tubes and you know the plan is to see what it takes to damage it. 

So stay tuned. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: fanOfeeDIY on January 08, 2016, 02:36:15 pm
So stay tuned.

I will. :)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 13, 2016, 03:16:52 pm
Finally trying out the new camera.  My plan is to make up my own opto-coupled trigger cable that will be driven from the transient generator.   To start, I plan to use the signal generator to output a burst of 1KHz pulses into a counter.  The signal generator's trigger out will trigger the camera that will be pointed at the counter.  Then I should be able to determine the trigger jigger and latency.     

This video shows a glass type gas discharge tube at low speed.  Then I setup the counter at 1KHz and recorded at 240 and 960 fps.  Looks like it can almost keep up at 960 as expected.   Picture looks pretty poor.   Guessing it's an operator problem...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXPnqfkgAzo&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXPnqfkgAzo&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Stupid Beard on January 13, 2016, 04:02:57 pm
This video shows a glass type gas discharge tube at low speed.  Then I setup the counter at 1KHz and recorded at 240 and 960 fps.  Looks like it can almost keep up at 960 as expected.   Picture looks pretty poor.   Guessing it's an operator problem...

The picture quality issue might be insufficient light. You generally need a lot more light at faster frame rates. I am by no means knowledgeable in that area but that's what it looked like to me.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 16, 2016, 02:36:58 pm
This video shows a glass type gas discharge tube at low speed.  Then I setup the counter at 1KHz and recorded at 240 and 960 fps.  Looks like it can almost keep up at 960 as expected.   Picture looks pretty poor.   Guessing it's an operator problem...

The picture quality issue might be insufficient light. You generally need a lot more light at faster frame rates. I am by no means knowledgeable in that area but that's what it looked like to me.

I am guessing you are right.  The old Cannon I use will get real grainy like this even with stills in low light.   The parts to make the trigger for the camera are now all on order.  I had not realized the mini-USB they use is actually a 10-pin until after I had ordered some standard 5 pin ones.    But the two connectors for the transient generator are here so I can get started making changes to that.   One connector will be a standard 50 ohm output, the other will be an isolated type for the camera.   

In retrospect, attempting to build the generator on old technology was not the brightest idea I have had.   There are about 50 bytes if code space left and no I/O pins to make this programmable trigger.   :palm:   

I have a 22V10 on the board with one unused input that I plan to use to make a multiplexer with a few of the other signals and hope to somehow cram it all in there.   

The other two meters I wanted to run also arrived.  Lots to do.....
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 17, 2016, 02:05:24 pm
FFE7 to FFEF is still free....   :-DD    Just to be clear, the ROM starts at F800, or 2K total.   

I ended up putting two trigger outputs on the generator.  One is a programmable pre-trigger that will drive the high speed camera, the other is at the time the transient is fired.   Both are just 5V 50 ohm outputs.  I'll make a separate circuit for the camera. 

trigger1: two additional BNCs for the pre-trigger and trigger
trigger2: added pre-trigger  to display, shown at 200ms
trigger3: trigger outputs.   bottom trace rising edge is the pre-trigger.  200ms to trigger rising edge (top trace) 

Joined a camera forum and asked about the Sony's remote.   May have to modify the camera to make this work.   :palm:   Hope to have the Sony remote and a few other parts next week and I can start playing with it. 


01506                         *  INVALID INTERRUPT REQUIESTED
01507                         *
01508  A ffe6 3b              INVALID_IRQ RTI         

M6801 Portable Cross Assembler  0.05  Page 31
 Sat Jan 16 20:16:13 2016 
Options - MD,MC,NOG,NOU,W,NOMEX,CL,FMT,O
 
LINE   S PC   OPCO OPERANDS S LABEL    MNEMO OPERANDS COMMENT
01509                         *
01510                         * INTERRUPT VECTORS
01511                         *
01512  A fff0                          ORG   IRQ_VEC  FFF0 - ROM
01513  A fff0      ffe6     A          FDB   INVALID_IRQ SCI
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 19, 2016, 11:53:16 am
Strange UNI-T ad where they go after Fluke. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fFjiLU5bF0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fFjiLU5bF0)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on January 19, 2016, 03:06:33 pm
Strange UNI-T ad where they go after Fluke. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fFjiLU5bF0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fFjiLU5bF0)

Wow, that is truly truly weird.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 19, 2016, 03:30:52 pm
I need to drill a few more holes in my custom made camera mount.      The last parts for the trigger should be in tomorrow.  Won't be long now.....

In the mean time, finally some fire and smoke....  In this video, I put the meter proto board the test again and capture the results with the new camera.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUSIf3QOEA8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUSIf3QOEA8)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 21, 2016, 12:35:39 pm
Finished up the remote and tested the camera's trigger delay.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNF-j2B8caU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNF-j2B8caU&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 21, 2016, 03:35:53 pm
And finally, the new camera with modified remote is connected to the surge generator for the very first auto trigger....   And it works!!!  :phew:

I'm thinking it's time to look at a meter with some GDTs in it!  >:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms5OIBnQ_ig (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms5OIBnQ_ig)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 23, 2016, 12:24:08 pm
One of the meters I wanted to run was the UNI-T UT15C VoltStick.   The UNI-Ts have been some of the worst meters I have looked at and this one in particular has a CAT IV 600 rating and it basically just reads voltage so you would think it would be very robust.

There is a review of it on this site
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/%28-product-review-%29-uni-t-ut15c-volt-stick-ip65-cat-iv-600v/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/%28-product-review-%29-uni-t-ut15c-volt-stick-ip65-cat-iv-600v/)

Will it overthrow 5Ky's Fluke 107??? 

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 23, 2016, 08:44:31 pm
I like the picture they used for the packaging of the UT15C.  Hope you enjoy the review.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8pRlvgJw-o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8pRlvgJw-o)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on January 24, 2016, 12:01:36 am
I thought the continuity test would be the failure point but it's the only thing that survived.  :-//

Quite a surprising amount of components inside it for such limited/low-accuracy functionality.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 24, 2016, 09:20:39 am
I thought the continuity test would be the failure point but it's the only thing that survived.  :-//

Quite a surprising amount of components inside it for such limited/low-accuracy functionality.  :popcorn:



Hey there Mr Fungus.   I really thought this was going to be the first UNI-T that survived beyond 5ky's Fluke 107 or at least hung in there with the low end Flukes.   Mainly because of the CAT IV 600V rating on it and the it appears to be purpose built to measure  AC line voltage.    There were no reviews I could find that were in English so I thought I would run one.   I agree, it is very complex for what it does.   

I have updated the spreadsheet to include the UT15C.  No other changes were made.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: ehuesman on January 25, 2016, 05:36:23 am
Hi Joe,

Your videos and this thread have been extremely helpful in my decision making about buying a budget multi-purpose multimeter, so thank you very much for the work you put in. I've posted my own thread concerning a couple models I've narrowed it down to, based in large part on your information. My question here has to do with your spreadsheet attached to this thread. Is there a way to annotate or color-code the headings so that I know the CAT rating each test applies to? Meaning, if one of the tests was "3.0KV 2 ohm", which CAT protection level would that fall under? I can look at the spreadsheet now and see where certain models failed, but I can't tell if the failure was before or after their supposed CAT rating (unless I'm missing something, which is totally possible, and in that case I apologize).

I'm specifically interested in the two Amprobe models and the Greenlee model you tested. The AM-510 and AM-530 are both supposed to be CAT III and the DM-20 was labeled a CAT II.

Thanks in advance!

- Eric
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 25, 2016, 08:21:11 am
Hi Joe,

Your videos and this thread have been extremely helpful in my decision making about buying a budget multi-purpose multimeter, so thank you very much for the work you put in. I've posted my own thread concerning a couple models I've narrowed it down to, based in large part on your information. My question here has to do with your spreadsheet attached to this thread. Is there a way to annotate or color-code the headings so that I know the CAT rating each test applies to? Meaning, if one of the tests was "3.0KV 2 ohm", which CAT protection level would that fall under? I can look at the spreadsheet now and see where certain models failed, but I can't tell if the failure was before or after their supposed CAT rating (unless I'm missing something, which is totally possible, and in that case I apologize).

I'm specifically interested in the two Amprobe models and the Greenlee model you tested. The AM-510 and AM-530 are both supposed to be CAT III and the DM-20 was labeled a CAT II.

Thanks in advance!

- Eric


Eric,  I'm glad you found the videos helpful.   Yes, I can easily color code the spreadsheet to show the CAT rating each test applies to.   In every case, THEY DON'T!!   :-DD   
There are two big differences.   Because IEC is concerned with safety and I am only concerned with robustness, the meters NEVER see the energy levels they could if tested to the IEC standard.      The real generators will meet both the open and short circuit waveform requirements.   I limit the shorted energy to less than 20 Joules. 

For tests below 6KV, I now test with a open circuit, 100us FWHH.   6KV and above are now ran with a 50us FWHH, more like the IEC standard.     

Now........  Consider if the meter would not break over and had a 10M input.  It will not matter what the short circuit waveform looks like.    It's hard to push a few thousand amps through an open.    This is only going to come into play when something goes wrong.

I have not been buying meters that are lower than CAT III.   So I always test with a 2 ohm source now.   

For the 2nd edition of the standard, CAT III & IV 1.2/50us open waveform peaks are:
CAT III 50, 800 V peak
CAT III 100, 1500 V peak
CAT III 150, 2500 V peak
CAT III 300, 4000 V peak
CAT III 600, 6000 V peak
CAT III 1000, 8000 V peak
 
CAT IV 50, 1500 V peak
CAT IV 100, 2500 V peak
CAT IV 150, 4000 V peak
CAT IV 300, 6000 V peak
CAT IV 600, 8000 V peak
CAT IV 1000, 12000 V peak

A meter that is rated to CAT III 1000 does not mean it is also rated to CAT IV 600!!!!   So don't read more into this than what it is!

Obviously, I have been playing around with some higher energy levels but nothing that has been added to the spreadsheet and even then, these energy levels are still far below what we would test for with the IEC standards.   

Hope this helps.


   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: ehuesman on January 25, 2016, 08:58:29 am
I'm sure your answer would be helpful if I had the slightest clue as to what you were talking about, lol. I should've paid more attention to what you were saying in your videos. Based on some of your remarks and the title of the thread, I made the assumption (I know...) you were checking the multimeters against their claimed safety standard. I don't understand what you just told me, but I do understand my assumption was wrong.  |O

Either way, your testing was still a good guide for me and definitely was crucial in my decision to only go with independently tested models, so thank you.
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 25, 2016, 09:51:29 am
 :-DD  Yea, sorry about that.  I know my videos tend to be dry and my monotone voice can put you to sleep.   So I won't blame you your not following along real close.   

I am currently playing with my first ever Keysight handheld meter.  Planning on a two part video like the last few.   More of a review.   

Maybe Keysight with it's fancy gas discharge tubes will dethrone the Flukes...   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 27, 2016, 03:10:46 pm
I am amazed how susceptible some of the handheld meters are to RF.   You would think they would be stable with a 10v/m h/v gigish.   Somehow I doubt it. 

Funny, I have never had the need to put a meter in a chamber.  Any of you ever look into this? 

Almost forgot, the first half of my Keysight meter review is uploading now for those of you interested in a little GDT action.  So stay tuned....

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 28, 2016, 12:00:27 pm
Part 1 of the Keysight U1231A.  I have not yet ran any of the surge transients yet and am hoping to get to it this weekend.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjYPyuS8uhM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjYPyuS8uhM)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 31, 2016, 03:45:39 am
That was quick.   :box:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Lightages on January 31, 2016, 06:51:35 am
That was quick.   :box:

 :-//
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 31, 2016, 07:44:36 am
That was quick.   :box:

 :-//

From above:
Quote
I have not yet ran any of the surge transients yet and am hoping to get to it this weekend.   
The weekend is here.  Can I interest you in a slightly used Keysight meter?
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 31, 2016, 10:46:47 am
Keysight's gas discharge tubes in action. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE5CKaLzvqU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE5CKaLzvqU)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on January 31, 2016, 11:45:49 am
As a side note, I downloaded the datasheet for the controller IC and then tacked a couple of leads to the supply pins.   The device will pull about 60ma (should be below 5) and will begin to heat up.    All those surrounding parts could not save it. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 01, 2016, 11:11:30 pm
Keysight meter is ran on the half cycle line simulator.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju9JcAzgOeo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju9JcAzgOeo)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Muttley Snickers on February 02, 2016, 12:23:01 am
Well that's a shame Joe, I really did like the look, form factor and feature set of these meters and if the other meter that is currently very popular wasn't out yet then I was looking to grab a few of the U1232A's whilst Keysight still had the bonus deal in place, I would imagine that a warranty claim is out of the question but you never know until you try.

Thank you for your fine efforts...... :-+


Muttley
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 02, 2016, 03:36:33 pm
If the meters do what you want, I see no reason not to get them just because of the results from this test.   I was not at all surprised this Keysight meter was damaged beyond repair and was actually expecting it was going to fail at a much lower level.   Seeing that switch breakdown shows just how slow those things are to turn on.   It wouldn't have taken much to harden that design but seems that is always the story.   

I have yet to try to get any of the meters that have failed repaired under warranty.  Imagine the poor service tech.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on February 02, 2016, 10:45:50 pm
If the meters do what you want, I see no reason not to get them just because of the results from this test.

Yep.

eg. The UT61E has a very capable 22000 count chipset and plenty of features. It's a very good meter for the price from a capability point of view. It even does data logging via serial cable.

It failed Joe's first test but there's no reason not to get one if you're a hobbyist who mostly works with low voltage DC stuff.

PS: You can get a UT61E and a super-robust Fluke 101 for less than $100. Two meters is always better than one and that's a very capable combination. It covers just about everything you'll ever need a multimeter for. If I was just starting out and had $100 to spend I could do a lot worse than buy those two.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 03, 2016, 01:48:11 pm
It's too dry here to own a 61D or E.   Would hate to have a meter fail because I walked across the carpet without my wrist strap on and touch the leads.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 04, 2016, 03:35:55 pm
I picked up a UNI-T UT210E clamp meter.   I had read some of the reviews on this site for it and a friend on mine was looking for a clamp so I thought we could check it out.   A few of us played with it today (just for the AC/DC current) and it's actually not a bad little clamp for the price.  More accurate than I was expecting.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on February 04, 2016, 07:32:05 pm
It's too dry here to own a 61D or E.   Would hate to have a meter fail because I walked across the carpet without my wrist strap on and touch the leads.

In that case you leave the 61E on your bench (which must be grounded or you wouldn't be able to do anything) and you only carry the Fluke 101 around the house. :-)

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 04, 2016, 10:55:11 pm
It's too dry here to own a 61D or E.   Would hate to have a meter fail because I walked across the carpet without my wrist strap on and touch the leads.

In that case you leave the 61E on your bench (which must be grounded or you wouldn't be able to do anything) and you only carry the Fluke 101 around the house. :-)

I will be the first to admit at home I rarely practice proper ESD handling.  I actually only have a couple of square feet of grounded mat on my bench where I solder and it's rare I use a strap.  As bad as it sounds, I would guess many hobbyist do not use anything for ESD.       
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 07, 2016, 01:29:46 pm
Looking at the current inputs on a couple of meters. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x9yV2ah4fg&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x9yV2ah4fg&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 08, 2016, 11:32:54 am
It turns out there was not a second spark gap as I stated in the video.  Well, there was but I doubt it was an intended one.   The trace that routed to the current input was gone to about half way up the board.   I suspect this is when the control IC lost it's lid. 

In gap2, you can see how the arc jumped all the way to the common pads and started to erode them.   This is a fairly wide gap compared to what I am suspecting is an actual spark gap in gap1.   







Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 08, 2016, 11:42:13 am
Just because a meter uses a large fuse in the current does not mean that the layout is any better.   

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: crispy_tofu on February 08, 2016, 12:10:52 pm
The images don't seem to work...  :-[
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 08, 2016, 01:16:21 pm
The images don't seem to work...  :-[

For some reason, when I pull from the camera directly it does not always copy. :-//    Fixed.

Here is the Fluke 17B+.   Note that they use an inner plane. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 08, 2016, 02:42:33 pm
From another one of Danaher's divisions, 5ky's AM530.   Nice slit for the mA range and again, a fair amount of clearance. 
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 10, 2016, 11:18:04 pm
I was looking at Dave's video with Doug Ford where they put the Fluke 28II on Doug's generator.   At the start of the video Doug states:  4.2-4.3KV, <1ms discharge and 400J for the small generator.    I suspect this would be a fair bit different as he talks about charging the cap.    It appears they ran it with the selector in DC mode.   

My setup only puts at most in the 20J range at under 6KV.  Even when I test with the old generator at higher voltages, the generator is below 20J.  The pulse on the low voltage generator can be as wide as 100us FWHH and up to 50us on the high voltage generator.    This is why I never see the level of damage shown in Dave and Doug's video.   

Dave talks about the meter failing safe and is what he would expect.   I would assume the resistor shown lifted was in place or the MOVs would not have cut loose.    Based on how poorly the 87Vs I looked at performed, it makes sense to me that the 28II would see a fair amount of damage.   It would have been interesting to see the Fluke 101, 107, 17B+ and 115 on this same generator and then compare the results with the 28II.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=M-FZP1U2dkM#t=653 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=M-FZP1U2dkM#t=653)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 11, 2016, 12:09:44 pm
Two new meters are on order.   Maybe in a week or so I'll have something to show....
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on February 11, 2016, 07:34:57 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/?action=dlattach;attach=199811;image)

 :palm:

What meter is that?

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: Fungus on February 11, 2016, 07:38:06 pm
Two new meters are on order.   Maybe in a week or so I'll have something to show....

A blue one...?  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 12, 2016, 10:30:05 am
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/?action=dlattach;attach=199811;image)

 :palm:

What meter is that?

It was 5ky's dt-9962T (rebranded Southwire)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbZQx0SD7-Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbZQx0SD7-Y)
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 12, 2016, 10:39:07 am
Two new meters are on order.   Maybe in a week or so I'll have something to show....

A blue one...?  :popcorn:

I would like to get one of his new meters when it becomes to see how it fairs with the others I have tested.   Maybe we will finally see one that holds it's own with the Flukes.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 16, 2016, 01:00:11 pm
The first of the two meters made it in today. 

The attached picture shows the old and new test leads I plan to start using.   The new generator is fairly low risk to use.  Once it is down with the five transients, it turns off the HV supply.  Still, it's possible to touch the exposed ends of the banana connectors and have the generator fire.   The new ends are made by Multi-Contact.   I also made up a new set of leads for the scope probe, so there is now no exposed contact area.   

The new leads are the same length and gauge so it should not make a difference when testing.  I'll keep the original leads for meters that do not support the new ends or when using the alligator clips.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 17, 2016, 12:55:37 pm
Second meter arrived today.   One is blue.   

I picked up the UNI-T UT210E a few weeks back and took it to work where it was passed around and abused for a few days.   I don't think anyone had a bad word to say about it.   No one used anything other than the current clamp.   This is the first UNI-T product I decided to keep, for now anyway.    My plan is to see what sort of BW it really has then maybe modify it.   

Hope to start testing again soon.   
Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 23, 2016, 02:42:19 pm
A few people has asked me about running the Vici VC99 meter.   At first glance, I saw it was only rated for CAT II 1000 and did not plan to run it.   However it seems like a fairly popular meter for some reason.   Looking at the packing, they mention Fluke.   My guess is the printing would have been "Compared".   Maybe suggesting this is some how like a Fluke?  They have the color very close but that transistor socket would need to go. 

Looking at page 1 of the manual, its a 3 7/6 digit meter.  Or 4 1/6.   

The last statement on page 1 states "Please don't modify the circuitry arbitrarily, it may cause safety problem."   It's a good point.

My plan for this meter will be to review it like the last few I have looked at, then run it with the 2 ohm source rather than the 12 ohms called for by CAT II.   
   

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on February 28, 2016, 11:48:08 am
I wanted to make a couple of enhancements to my test jig before running these next meters.  During the shakedown run, I appear to have created a new rocket engine by accident.

Title: Re: Hear kitty kitty kitty, nope not that kind of cat. CAT III handheld surge tests.
Post by: joeqsmith on March 01, 2016, 05:30:44 am
The VICI VC99 takes on the Flukes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q23eArAsXmo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q23eArAsXmo)
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: tautech on March 01, 2016, 11:04:14 am
Spreadsheet has been updated.   The blue meter is next.
:scared:

I'll get my  :popcorn: ready, it's all gone watching the Vichi fry.  >:D



BTW, Joe, the thread title change is great.  :-+
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: rsjsouza on March 01, 2016, 02:44:32 pm
Great review on the VC99, Joe! Waiting for the smurf meter... ;)
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: joeqsmith on March 03, 2016, 12:06:33 am
Great review on the VC99, Joe! Waiting for the smurf meter... ;)

Thanks.   Hopefully making more of a review, showing more how the meters are built and looking at the current inputs will be helpful to a few people.   

Just to be clear, the smurf meter is not the EEVBLOG rebranded Brymen.   A few people have asked about running a Hioki.  I am interested in it because it uses gas discharge tubes as part of its input protection like the Keysight meter.   
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: rsjsouza on March 03, 2016, 09:07:44 am
Great review on the VC99, Joe! Waiting for the smurf meter... ;)

Thanks.   Hopefully making more of a review, showing more how the meters are built and looking at the current inputs will be helpful to a few people.   

Just to be clear, the smurf meter is not the EEVBLOG rebranded Brymen.   A few people have asked about running a Hioki.  I am interested in it because it uses gas discharge tubes as part of its input protection like the Keysight meter.
Either the Hioki, the Davymen or a Itinlu (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B018IJBQPM/ref=sxr_pa_click_within_right_aps_sr_pg1_1?psc=1) DMM should be an interesting review.

BTW, I really loved your experiments with GDTs: I always had the impression nothing else in the world was better than GDTs for protection and the only reason they weren't used more was simply cost.

This idea was etched in my brain due to the massive GDT panels in telco distribution boxes, which probably made sense to protect kilometers of cables and their comparatively large reactance - a very different scenario inside a tiny and sensitive equipment such as a DMM.

Hopefully the Hioki fares better than the Agilent. Looking forward for this one.
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: joeqsmith on March 03, 2016, 10:54:07 am
I saw where Martin?? did a review and talked about running a test like this using various parts.  Apparently he never got around to it or decided it was beyond his skill/comfort level.  It would have been interesting to see EEVBLOG put out a video like this as part of how the meter protection works.   Both of these guys could do a much better job than I have.    It's just hard to draw any conclusion from these tests.  My only goal was to show the difference in clamping speeds.   

The GDTs have their place for sure.   I think they would work very well in a meter if designed correctly but looking at how the Keysight  had no other clamp, I knew it was not going to fair well.   

Davymen?  Never heard of it.  Looked that the Itinlu, it's CAT II like the VICI and unfused.  Send a link for the other one and I will have a look at it.   
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: blacksheeplogic on March 03, 2016, 11:34:05 am
The GDTs have their place for sure.   I think they would work very well in a meter if designed correctly but looking at how the Keysight  had no other clamp, I knew it was not going to fair well.   

I don't think you can really say it was not designed correctly. The design meets the relevant safety requirements as intended, failed in a safe manner and although non-functional it presented no safety risk in that failed condition.

As a user of that meter, we may prefer that it continued to operate but we really don't know what the designers thought process on this was. It may be that they felt a meter which sustained this kind of an event should be withdrawn or serviced/checked before being put back into the field in which case remaining functional after the event was not important to them.

Also, if the meter was sent back after it failed in the field due to this kind of non-dellibrate event it would very probably be replace under warranty without a great deal of fuss.
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: joeqsmith on March 03, 2016, 12:10:53 pm
I don't think you can really say it was not designed correctly.

You may not think so but I stand by what I wrote. 

I have no idea if any of the meters I have looked at would fail in a safe manner or not if tested to the IEC standards.  These tests are about the electrical robustness of the meters.  If you want to know if a meter is safe or not, have it tested by an accredited lab.   

Do you feel the GDTs, MOVs, PTCs and secondary clamps are all there for safety alone?   
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: rsjsouza on March 03, 2016, 01:03:56 pm
I saw where Martin?? did a review and talked about running a test like this using various parts.  Apparently he never got around to it or decided it was beyond his skill/comfort level.  It would have been interesting to see EEVBLOG put out a video like this as part of how the meter protection works.   Both of these guys could do a much better job than I have.    It's just hard to draw any conclusion from these tests.  My only goal was to show the difference in clamping speeds.   
I too always wanted to do an evaluation with GDTs and equivalent protection devices (I did one on varistors). The main issues are the controlled high voltage generator and the companion probe - so yes, so far you are the best equipped of all of us.

Davymen?  Never heard of it.  Looked that the Itinlu, it's CAT II like the VICI and unfused.  Send a link for the other one and I will have a look at it.
Sorry, I thought I had edited the "Davymen" out as soon as I had realized it was an extremely lame attempt to brand Dave's Brymen. This should have never surfaced.
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: RobertoLG on March 03, 2016, 02:09:57 pm
@joeqsmith

are you going to test the Digitek DT-2843R too? or you already did it?
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: joeqsmith on March 03, 2016, 02:16:46 pm
I saw where Martin?? did a review and talked about running a test like this using various parts.  Apparently he never got around to it or decided it was beyond his skill/comfort level.  It would have been interesting to see EEVBLOG put out a video like this as part of how the meter protection works.   Both of these guys could do a much better job than I have.    It's just hard to draw any conclusion from these tests.  My only goal was to show the difference in clamping speeds.   
I too always wanted to do an evaluation with GDTs and equivalent protection devices (I did one on varistors). The main issues are the controlled high voltage generator and the companion probe - so yes, so far you are the best equipped of all of us.

The probe is IMO one of the more useful things I made during this little adventure.   I never use my old Tektronix probe anymore.   It would not take a lot to build a generator.   I think the biggest mistake I made was not using modern parts.  But it was fun to wire wrap one last board and attempt to cram all that code in 2K.  Most of these tests are run below 10J.  Not something you want to mess with, but really I have a fair amount of safety built in to the system.   For example, covered leads now so there is nothing really exposed.  The generator turns off the power supplies once it is done and discharges them.  Of course I have my shorting stick.   And now the door that covers the meter if I am doing something stupid like looking at glass fuses.   I really only get concerned now when I play with that half cycle system.  When I use it, I arm it then walk away..   :-DD 


Davymen?  Never heard of it.  Looked that the Itinlu, it's CAT II like the VICI and unfused.  Send a link for the other one and I will have a look at it.
Sorry, I thought I had edited the "Davymen" out as soon as I had realized it was an extremely lame attempt to brand Dave's Brymen. This should have never surfaced.

That completely went over me!  :-DD :-DD  I would like to get a couple of the meters he is involved in working out the specs for.  One to benchmark and one for my own.    Last I looked they were still making changes to the specs.   Looking forward to seeing what they come up with.   
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: joeqsmith on March 03, 2016, 02:25:51 pm
@joeqsmith

are you going to test the Digitek DT-2843R too?

You two just like seeing those glass fuses pop don't you?! :-DD   Looks like there is an 102KD14 MOV right across the input leads? Can anyone confirm this?
 

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digitek-dt-2843r-acdc-true-rms-multimeter-mini-review-and-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=37357;image)
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: RobertoLG on March 03, 2016, 03:04:06 pm
yes, there is a MOV, a picture of mine, sory for the bad quality
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: blacksheeplogic on March 03, 2016, 03:18:17 pm
I don't think you can really say it was not designed correctly.

You may not think so but I stand by what I wrote. 

I have no idea if any of the meters I have looked at would fail in a safe manner or not if tested to the IEC standards.  These tests are about the electrical robustness of the meters.  If you want to know if a meter is safe or not, have it tested by an accredited lab.   

Do you feel the GDTs, MOVs, PTCs and secondary clamps are all there for safety alone?

It's OK and I understand you are only testing robustness, but that is irrelevant to the point made. You are using your robustness criteria and passing a judgment on their design as being incorrect. My point was that their design criteria was possibly different to yours and based on their design requirement requirements it was designed correctly.

You don't have to like it, or buy their meter because of it, and it's perfectly valid to complain or criticize the electrical robustness of the meter that did not meet your expectations. But it's not correct to say it was not designed correctly based on your design criteria.
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: joeqsmith on March 03, 2016, 09:08:06 pm
I don't think you can really say it was not designed correctly. The design meets the relevant safety requirements as intended, failed in a safe manner and although non-functional it presented no safety risk in that failed condition.

It's OK and I understand you are only testing robustness, but that is irrelevant to the point made.

You come on here and want to post about safety on a meter that was tested at sub 20J.   Now you post you understand.   I doubt you have any clue what is going on in the videos which explains why you failed to answer my question.   

You are using your robustness criteria and passing a judgment on their design as being incorrect.
I have not edited my original post and stand by it.   
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: joeqsmith on March 03, 2016, 09:13:17 pm
yes, there is a MOV, a picture of mine, sory for the bad quality

Thanks.   I have seen a placeholder for what appeared to be a MOV across the inputs on another meter.   I believe this is the first meter I have seen with a MOV on the front side of the PTCs. 
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: joeqsmith on March 09, 2016, 12:12:44 am
For all of you Hioki fans, thanks for being patient.   Watch as their DT4252 is put to the test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCQCmhr5AYQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCQCmhr5AYQ)
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: Fungus on March 09, 2016, 12:47:06 am
Measure down to 10A...?  :-//
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: joeqsmith on March 09, 2016, 10:28:07 am
Measure down to 10A...?  :-//

Maybe down was correct and the "0" was supposed to be an "m"?   
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: joeqsmith on March 11, 2016, 05:33:04 am
The Hioki DT4252 part 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acqktm1fgHo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acqktm1fgHo)
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: RobertoLG on March 11, 2016, 10:05:02 am
tuff meter, huh?   :-+
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: joeqsmith on March 11, 2016, 10:22:44 am
tuff meter, huh?   :-+

If it had just a small amount more plastic in that guard I would not be surprised if I could not damage it.   

I have updated the spreadsheet for those interested.
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: RobertoLG on March 11, 2016, 10:46:42 am
tuff meter, huh?   :-+

If it had just a small amount more plastic in that guard I would not be surprised if I could not damage it.   

I have updated the spreadsheet for those interested.

hehe, I really would like to have one of these...but heh "just dreams" nevermind

and thanks for the nice testing videos  :-+
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: quarks on March 11, 2016, 12:46:47 pm
Great work and very informative :-+ :-+ :-+
Title: Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
Post by: saturation on March 14, 2016, 03:59:21 am
Great work, Joe, as always on this entire series.

Hioki builds great devices, but this Hioki DMM series continues to have 2 shortcomings. 

First, the creepage distances are a bit close [ as Joe points out too] in other areas.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-hioki-multimeer-and-first-project/msg736814/#msg736814 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-hioki-multimeer-and-first-project/msg736814/#msg736814)

Why is there no NRTL safety rating beyond CE or KCC [ the are not recognized in the USA by OSHA ]?  It may be because of what Joe shows.

From the slow motion, where the creepages are too close, added areas of arcing occur. If all the arcing is stopped by the plastic spacer it would be best to reshoot the video showing no added arcing occurs. 

The basic Hioki design out of box however, has a fault, and it allows arcs to propagate despite the GDT input protection at the 8kV impulse, which is the CAT III, 600V rating.

You can see the GDT glowing in the videos.  the GDT is simply not fast enough for this application.

http://blog.circuitprotection.com/communications/movs-vs-gdts-which-one-do-i-use/ (http://blog.circuitprotection.com/communications/movs-vs-gdts-which-one-do-i-use/)

It would be better to use both the MOV and GDT at the inputs or MOV alone.  The GDT acts to prolong the life of the MOVs particularly in high energy overvoltage.

Recall, this is a test impulse.  The real world worse case is that the impulse rides atop high energy AC, such as line voltage, and if the arcing occurs, it provides the pathway for an arc blast.

In this screen grab, one arc extended around the plastic shield from V+ terminal.  Another extends from the center GND terminal from one of end of the fuse and from the fuse end to the ground plane.  You can also see the GDT glowing.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/?action=dlattach;attach=208195;image)

In this grab, the corona post arcing lights up the fault areas.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/?action=dlattach;attach=208197;image)

The meter surviving the arc is a good thing, but that could be because so much energy is shunted across the inputs nothing appears to the more high impedance DMM circuitry.

However, the point of the protective devices is to protect the user first, not the DMM, for the specific CAT rating of the meter.




The Hioki DT4252 part 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acqktm1fgHo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acqktm1fgHo)
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