Poll

Are you interested in seeing more handheld meters tested?

This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
3 (6.4%)
 Yes, I would like to more meters tested.
44 (93.6%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Handheld meter robustness testing  (Read 648769 times)

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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1850 on: August 21, 2017, 12:47:06 am »
The ANENG AN8008.  Enjoy.

How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline kalel

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1851 on: August 21, 2017, 01:04:50 am »
The ANENG AN8008.  Enjoy.



Thanks for the vid. Will check it soon.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1852 on: August 21, 2017, 11:48:28 am »
Does that mean I owe you a meter?
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1853 on: August 21, 2017, 12:10:42 pm »
Does that mean I owe you a meter?

I think it's past the statute of limitations for meter testing. 

Hard to believe this thing can't read 10M and up and what's up with that 200MHz susceptibility?  This is the first meter I have seen that you could not even power the thing up.  Too bad they dropped the temperature input.  Personally, I would have more use for that than the signal generator.  The other things I don't like are the fuse size, the creepage/clearances around the fuses, the shared current input (may not be a problem except the clearance/creepage), putting the PTC on the backside of the switch.     Just moving the PTC would have been a step in the right direction.   That's a lot of copper.  Would like to see one of these run through the real IEC surge test for the 600V CAT III levels. 

On the plus side, they at least fixed the rectified AC line problems I saw and it does hold up to Dave's insulation tester!   :-DD
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline kalel

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1854 on: August 21, 2017, 02:45:26 pm »
Too bad they dropped the temperature input.  Personally, I would have more use for that than the signal generator.

It reminds me of my little DT830D, it also has an output, but it's less useful being fixed at ~50 Hz (or something around that). Even with those meters, there's a model that has the more useful temperature input (DT838).
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1855 on: August 21, 2017, 03:27:43 pm »
Does that mean I owe you a meter?

I think it's past the statute of limitations for meter testing. 

And technically, it did survive the ESD test.  :popcorn:
 

Offline MacMeter

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1856 on: August 21, 2017, 08:15:28 pm »
The ANENG AN8008.  Enjoy.



Nice slow motion fireworks Joe!

Can you explain why there are two different HZ switch settings on the ZT109, one under the "VOLT" switch selection, and another in its own dedicated HZ switch position? Are they the same or do they show different results? Confused. TKS.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1857 on: August 22, 2017, 12:58:16 am »
Does that mean I owe you a meter?
I think it's past the statute of limitations for meter testing. 
And technically, it did survive the ESD test.  :popcorn:
Nothing gets past you, well almost nothing.   After seeing the meter unable to power up with the 200MHz 3V signal applied, I was concerned it was going to have problems with the ESD but like the 8002, no problems at all.   

I was not too surprised that it was damaged at 2.5KV.  Right in the ballpark of the 8002 I looked at which was damaged at 3KV.   Spreadsheet has been updated BTW. 

Need to decide what to do with the second 8002. I was thinking to try and harden the design.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1858 on: August 22, 2017, 01:06:19 am »
The ANENG AN8008.  Enjoy.
Nice slow motion fireworks Joe!
Can you explain why there are two different HZ switch settings on the ZT109, one under the "VOLT" switch selection, and another in its own dedicated HZ switch position? Are they the same or do they show different results? Confused. TKS.

The manual states to measure high voltage low frequency, select the DC voltage mode.  For low voltage high frequency, use the Frequency mode.   As far as what constitutes high/low voltage/frequency, I have no idea.  I could have ran tests for you had you asked a few days ago but sadly, the meter will never run again.

As far as why, vs the 8002 which only has the one setting, maybe marketing?  People like features.  Personally, I would rather have a meter with less but very solid features. 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 11:42:02 pm by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline MacMeter

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1859 on: August 22, 2017, 01:52:27 am »
I'm aware you toasted your ZT109 for the sake of science. Mark H. (Who reviewed this meter as well) mentioned: "The AN8008/ZT109 has that auto-ranging bug with frequency in the voltage position that isn't present in the dedicated Hz position, for what that's worth."
 

Offline Crumble

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1860 on: August 22, 2017, 11:21:18 am »
Yet another informative review/test IMO, good work joe! :-+

I kinda like these small Anengs to be honest. They have their flaws, and I think you covered them all. For electronics an AN8002/8008 combi covers 99% of my needs (and together only about $35) and I use them on my bench quite often for projects.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1861 on: August 23, 2017, 11:37:14 am »
Grear video for the AN8008, Joe! Thanks for sharing. Nothing unexpected, of course, but at least we got an actual run on this.

One detail: be careful with these screeen polishers! They almost revealed your face to the camera, which would be dangerous as the haters can identify you and come to your house with pitchforks and torches - the 7.7% of the voters above, the Dave fanboys pissed at your 121GW tests or the clueless that think you are shoving discharged caps at inputs. :DD
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1862 on: August 24, 2017, 04:13:30 pm »
Grear video for the AN8008, Joe! Thanks for sharing. Nothing unexpected, of course, but at least we got an actual run on this.

One detail: be careful with these screeen polishers! They almost revealed your face to the camera, which would be dangerous as the haters can identify you and come to your house with pitchforks and torches - the 7.7% of the voters above, the Dave fanboys pissed at your 121GW tests or the clueless that think you are shoving discharged caps at inputs. :DD

Glad you enjoyed it.   I was surprised when I could not get the meter to power up and that it could not read 10M.  For electronics hobby work, I use > 10M often.   

I've had videos up in the past of my face.  One was a full month of me not shaving for November.   It had some music in it so YT flagged it so I pulled it.

The companies may be more upset than the fans.  Then again, not much point as anyone could repeat the tests I run.   It would be better to focus on making better products if that was their goal.  I guess they could attempt to discredit me or the tests I perform but even that seems unproductive.  Fans would be better served by contacting the manufactures with what ever concerns they have.  There is really nothing I can do from my end to improve a released product.   I wonder how Gossen is making out with the Ultra.       

I've had various manufactures and distributors ask me about doing reviews now. For me the cost of the product is nothing compared with the time involved.  I have turned them all down except for when Dave offered to send the pre-production 121GW.  As Dave mentioned and I tend to agree that in hindsight, that was not such a great idea due to the confusion that it apparently caused viewers.     

Recently, UNI-T contacted me about doing a review of one of their new meters.  I was floored and asked them to spend some time looking at specific videos I have made using their products.  I'm sure someone in marketing was thinking free advertisement, which it would be but if the meter does poorly, that's a lot of bad publicity.  I can't see any benefit for a company to provide me with products unless they are VERY confident that it will do well in the tests and does not have other problems.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1863 on: August 24, 2017, 05:56:22 pm »
Grear video for the AN8008, Joe! Thanks for sharing. Nothing unexpected, of course, but at least we got an actual run on this.

One detail: be careful with these screeen polishers! They almost revealed your face to the camera, which would be dangerous as the haters can identify you and come to your house with pitchforks and torches - the 7.7% of the voters above, the Dave fanboys pissed at your 121GW tests or the clueless that think you are shoving discharged caps at inputs. :DD

Glad you enjoyed it.   I was surprised when I could not get the meter to power up and that it could not read 10M.  For electronics hobby work, I use > 10M often.   

I've had videos up in the past of my face.  One was a full month of me not shaving for November.   It had some music in it so YT flagged it so I pulled it.

The companies may be more upset than the fans.  Then again, not much point as anyone could repeat the tests I run.   It would be better to focus on making better products if that was their goal.  I guess they could attempt to discredit me or the tests I perform but even that seems unproductive.  Fans would be better served by contacting the manufactures with what ever concerns they have.  There is really nothing I can do from my end to improve a released product.   I wonder how Gossen is making out with the Ultra.       
I agree with you and don't think they would go after you: as you always say, it is just data. If any one of them is willing to reproduce the tests then they can feel free to either create their own jig or politely ask you for the design information to faithfully re-create your setup.

That said, it may take a lot of time to improve a product after it hits the shelves - minimal changes can get past quite quickly as a "rev" update but significant ones may need recert and that on itself is a pain in the rear end. That is very hard to say if Gossen is either doing soul-searching or actually going through the motions to improve their product.

Recently, UNI-T contacted me about doing a review of one of their new meters.  I was floored and asked them to spend some time looking at specific videos I have made using their products.  I'm sure someone in marketing was thinking free advertisement, which it would be but if the meter does poorly, that's a lot of bad publicity.  I can't see any benefit for a company to provide me with products unless they are VERY confident that it will do well in the tests and does not have other problems.
I can. A company like Uni-T would benefit from an "official" review from you in a few ways:
- if all is well they get a Joe certified toughness sealTM
- if it goes bad, they get free training for their design engineers and still have a chance to review the design and present you with a tougher unit later on (wouldn't you review an UT181B or C if you could?)
- if it does ok, they can still brag about being better than an 87V


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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1864 on: August 25, 2017, 12:15:08 am »
I agree with you and don't think they would go after you: as you always say, it is just data. If any one of them is willing to reproduce the tests then they can feel free to either create their own jig or politely ask you for the design information to faithfully re-create your setup.

The easiest way would be just to use an off the shelf surge generator.  A large company could afford it, it could also be certified.  It may take longer to run the tests as you would have to be MUCH more careful.  My setup is very low energy so there is not a lot of risk running the meters in the open.  I would construct some sort of containment system.  Maybe a way to remotely turn the selector without exposing the operator.  Fun stuff for sure.  End result may have a lot more drama. 

That said, it may take a lot of time to improve a product after it hits the shelves - minimal changes can get past quite quickly as a "rev" update but significant ones may need recert and that on itself is a pain in the rear end. That is very hard to say if Gossen is either doing soul-searching or actually going through the motions to improve their product.

I agree about the time.  IMO, it would go along way for them to post that they have not forgotten and are continuing to work on it. Such a small thing may go a long way to help them.  Then again, their communication has not been a strong point. 

Recently, UNI-T contacted me about doing a review of one of their new meters.  I was floored and asked them to spend some time looking at specific videos I have made using their products.  I'm sure someone in marketing was thinking free advertisement, which it would be but if the meter does poorly, that's a lot of bad publicity.  I can't see any benefit for a company to provide me with products unless they are VERY confident that it will do well in the tests and does not have other problems.
I can. A company like Uni-T would benefit from an "official" review from you in a few ways:
- if all is well they get a Joe certified toughness sealTM
- if it goes bad, they get free training for their design engineers and still have a chance to review the design and present you with a tougher unit later on (wouldn't you review an UT181B or C if you could?)
- if it does ok, they can still brag about being better than an 87V

I doubt I carry much weight when it comes to reviews.  mjlorton, eevblog would be a better choice with their larger followings and IMO better presentation skills.   There are also very few meters that reach those upper levels.  They fail where they fail and that's what you get in the videos and spreadsheet.  There is little I can do to put a positive spin on a bad design.     

If UNI-T came out with a 181B, especially if they have it certified to the EMC standards, you know I am going to run it.  If it survived and they did not screw anything else up in the process and they address a few other small issues, that meter would be excellent for the electronic hobbyist.  My advice to them is just don't cut costs.       
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1865 on: August 26, 2017, 05:17:58 am »
Time to decide what to do with the Kasuntest ZT102 that I bought to compare against the AN8008.  A quick search to see what other had done and I came across this review of the AN8002 which makes reference to my original video. 
http://www.markhennessy.co.uk/budget_multimeters/aneng_an8002.htm

Quote
Astonishing, it had no problems going to 80MHz (yes, mega-Hz). Joe Smith's video (see below) suggests it'll go higher, but beyond that frequency the +17dBm (~1.6V) from my RF generator isn't enough for it. Joe doesn't mention the signal level used for his test.
In the first video I show the meter reading 201.5MHz.   The second meter was almost as good.   That was with the generator set to 20dBm.  Obviously, I never looked at the loading effects.

Quote
That was rather surprising, but shows that you can only predict so much from appearances. Remember, this meter has no MOVs or similar, and just a single PTC for protection.
To be clear, there is a clamp after the PTCs.  The other leg is protected by the two 5M series resistors.  The current input feeds through a two series switches and has a diode from the center node to the common.  These are the pads you see arc in Dave's video and the ones that get vaporized in mine. 

Quote
It took 3kV to damage it slightly, and ~6kV to kill the IC.
Not true.  The IC was damaged at 3KV.

Quote
And when it was hit with some seriously high energy afterwards, the case remained intact - which is really what safety is about (personal protection, not necessarily surviving electrically undamaged).
These are the kind of comments that make me cringe. I can't disagree that the OP may very well consider the half cycle simulator seriously high energy.  I have stated many times that the energy levels in these generators are quite low compared with the actual IEC standards.  I've also talked about how my goal was never to run safety tests.  The problem I see with the comment is someone not knowing any better may read this and think the meter is well protected for safety and surly it is not.   If you want to see case splitting energy levels, my channel is not the place. 

Quote
Obviously, this is for low energy electronics work only, but having said that, this meter performed really well in Joe's tests, so in reality it appears to be more rugged than you might assume.
I will agree that it is certainly more robust than many of the meters I have tested on my jig.  I imagine if the fuse were pulled (from the mA side) the meter would do worse as the switch is breaking down at a very low voltage and that circuit absorbs much of the energy.  Removing the fuse, you would increase the gap.    Again, breakdowns like this look fine on my little test setup because the energy levels I run at are so low that meters like this and some of the pocket meters actually survive to higher levels that they would with higher energy levels available.  The UNI-T UT90A is a great example of how a really bad front end design can act as a clamp and save the sensitive parts.  I have tried many times to destroy that meter and because of the limited energy level I test to, it continues to function.

Some off video comments about the AN8002/8.
Quote
The LCD is one of the best I've seen in terms of contrast and viewing angle.
Quote
This is interesting.  When I turned on my second ZT102, the first thing I noticed was how poor the LCD looked.  I also noticed that the switch did not feel near as smooth as the first one.   I swapped the LCD from the original meter which had no effect so something else has changed.  I also took apart both switches and noticed that they had changed the springs.  One set are silver, the other copper colored. I saw no other difference. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline kalel

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1866 on: August 26, 2017, 05:36:06 am »
Time to decide what to do with the Kasuntest ZT102 that I bought to compare against the AN8008.  A quick search to see what other had done and I came across this review of the AN8002 which makes reference to my original video. 
http://www.markhennessy.co.uk/budget_multimeters/aneng_an8002.htm

If it's still in good shape, maybe you might want to have it to compare with a future meter, I'm sure a new AN/ZT/DM will appear sooner or later. Might even look the same.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1867 on: August 26, 2017, 02:56:04 pm »
Time to decide what to do with the Kasuntest ZT102 that I bought to compare against the AN8008.  A quick search to see what other had done and I came across this review of the AN8002 which makes reference to my original video. 
http://www.markhennessy.co.uk/budget_multimeters/aneng_an8002.htm

If it's still in good shape, maybe you might want to have it to compare with a future meter, I'm sure a new AN/ZT/DM will appear sooner or later. Might even look the same.

It's basically brand new.  I'm thinking to get the dremel tool out and make a few changes.

Was not able to find a schematic for it.  If anyone is aware of one, please post a link.     
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1868 on: August 27, 2017, 12:50:35 am »
Someone had asked about adding a MOV to the meter to improve it's robustness.   

The Kasuntest ZT102, running against the big dogs now... 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline kalel

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1869 on: August 27, 2017, 01:12:11 am »
Someone had asked about adding a MOV to the meter to improve it's robustness.   

The Kasuntest ZT102, running against the big dogs now...

The black substance helps prevent sparking over? It might be common knowledge to most here, but I'm curious about how that works. 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 01:35:58 am by kalel »
 

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1870 on: August 27, 2017, 01:32:22 am »
The black substance helps prevents sparking over? It might be common knowledge to most here, but I'm curious about how that works.
Joe has previously used it in a few repairs and uses the term Corona dope.
Google finds several similar products, many of which are clear not black and if I'm not mistaken this is what Joe uses:
http://www.newark.com/gc-electronics/10-4702/corona-dope-2-oz-bottle/dp/90H9237

Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1871 on: August 27, 2017, 03:43:33 am »
The black substance helps prevents sparking over? It might be common knowledge to most here, but I'm curious about how that works.
Joe has previously used it in a few repairs and uses the term Corona dope.
Google finds several similar products, many of which are clear not black and if I'm not mistaken this is what Joe uses:
http://www.newark.com/gc-electronics/10-4702/corona-dope-2-oz-bottle/dp/90H9237
Yes, that is the product I use.  Make sure you download and read the MSDS (material safety data sheet) for it before you order it.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline kalel

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1872 on: August 27, 2017, 05:06:39 am »
The black substance helps prevents sparking over? It might be common knowledge to most here, but I'm curious about how that works.
Joe has previously used it in a few repairs and uses the term Corona dope.
Google finds several similar products, many of which are clear not black and if I'm not mistaken this is what Joe uses:
http://www.newark.com/gc-electronics/10-4702/corona-dope-2-oz-bottle/dp/90H9237
Yes, that is the product I use.  Make sure you download and read the MSDS (material safety data sheet) for it before you order it.

Yes, it does say hazardous item in the link - might have something to do with it. Is it safe to touch?

I was asking what it was only because I haven't seen those before (also in commercial products).
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1873 on: August 27, 2017, 06:27:30 am »
Safe is rather relative.  I can say that I have used some form of it for several decades and am still alive.  Of course, I am not afraid to use leaded solder with my bare hands as well.  It's always best to read the MSDS for any chemicals you plan to use. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1874 on: August 27, 2017, 06:35:07 am »
My highly modified Kasuntest ZT102.


How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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