Poll

Are you interested in seeing more handheld meters tested?

This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
3 (6.4%)
 Yes, I would like to more meters tested.
44 (93.6%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.  (Read 509159 times)

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Offline 3db

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2350 on: January 28, 2018, 09:18:44 am »
Nice one Joe.
Thanks for the time and effort.
3DB  ;D
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2351 on: February 03, 2018, 11:29:53 pm »
Oh, no! You know now that you are mandated by TEA law to amend your warning statements, right?  "Warning: multimeters AND probes were harmed in the making of this video. TEA viewer discretion is advised."

I remember very well the HV probe discussion as I was interested in making one as well and even got the parts, etc. One thing lead to another and i still didn't find the time to finish this project...  :palm:

Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2352 on: February 04, 2018, 11:15:37 am »
Oh, no! You know now that you are mandated by TEA law to amend your warning statements, right?  "Warning: multimeters AND probes were harmed in the making of this video. TEA viewer discretion is advised."

I remember very well the HV probe discussion as I was interested in making one as well and even got the parts, etc. One thing lead to another and i still didn't find the time to finish this project...  :palm:

As a hobbyist, I enjoy designing and building projects like this and have respect for anyone who attempts them.   Making a DC probe is one thing but add over 10KV to the mix and top it off with AC responses in the MHz, it turns into several hours of play time. 

We are back in business.
https://youtu.be/kWOe803atvg

 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2353 on: February 16, 2018, 11:19:00 am »
With the HV probe repaired and checked out, it's time to look at another meter.    I offered to let people pick the meter at 2000 subscribers and everyone wanted to see the 121GW.  Sadly the meter is still not available.   But I can offer to run another Fluke 87V which was peoples third pick after the Gossen.

We know the 87V I looked at could not come close to the performance of any of the the Chinese made Flukes I have looked.   I was asked about the revision of the meter I last ran and it was not the most recent.    What  I am thinking is to buy a brand new one, directly from Fluke and repeat all of the transient tests.  Maybe run a temperature sweep on it. 

I am not so sure where the 87V is made anymore.  The US laws on what it means to be made in the USA are pretty relaxed.  I would have to see the assembly line, here in the USA with this meter being made to know what it means anymore.    Danaher always seems to be listed in the top companies for unrepatriated profits.  It is what it is.   If China is doing the majority of the work now, it may prove to be a more robust meter.    Even that its a later design that the last one I looked at, maybe they improved it. 

The Fluke 17B+ is still the best performer from my life cycle testing.  I have been wanting to run another Fluke and it seems only fitting that the king pin of Fluke, the meter that all others are ranked against, gets a shot at that as well.   Not a 50,000 half stroke test , but the full rotation for 50K cycles that all of the other meters have been tested to.     

It may seem I have an axe to grind with Fluke.  I don't.  I am more than willing to give a brand new one a fair shake and let the data once again stand on it's own.   

So stay tuned.... 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2354 on: February 16, 2018, 12:02:00 pm »
Looking forward to it, Joe. I don't think you have any axes to grind. Even if you did, it ends up generating interesting videos. So, onward with the tests.
I TEA.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2355 on: February 16, 2018, 12:50:25 pm »
Joe, I think the 87V was one of the most controversial and surprising results you got. Definitely worth testing it again. IMHO the 121GW should be given a year or so given it is still being polished.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2356 on: February 16, 2018, 01:21:34 pm »
I am pretty sure that the most down voted video I made was the first run of the UT139.  Just looked, oh yea, 43 up, 56 down.  Of course, I repeated that test and the meter failed pretty much where we would have expected but the video ended up with 155 up and 10 down votes.   I guess the UNI-T fans felt I did not give their meter the respect it deserved.   :-DD 

So far, any time I have repeated a test, we get the expected results.  It shows that some of these companies have some level of quality process controls.  In the case of the Fluke however, we know they changed the PCB so it's a little different.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2357 on: February 17, 2018, 01:20:34 am »
You've been so long on Youtube and still believe in measuring things by up/down ratings? I have a bridge to sell to you... :-DD

In a more serious tone, I suspect you are right. Remember my comment about Uni-T snowflake owners?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/worst-handheld-multi-meter-still-available/msg1337635/#msg1337635
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2358 on: February 17, 2018, 05:00:54 am »
I've been on YT long enough to know it's not just the UNI-T owners. 

I was reading through this old thread about the 87V and change in quality  and may compare an older 87V with the new one.  Maybe there are other differences beyond what was mentioned in the thread. 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-87v-(2017)-lacking-quality-control/200/

Read through the FTC documents to see what was involved.  It may help explain some of the changes on how they are marked. 
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2359 on: February 17, 2018, 07:26:31 am »
I was reading through this old thread about the 87V and change in quality  and may compare an older 87V with the new one.  Maybe there are other differences beyond what was mentioned in the thread. 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-87v-(2017)-lacking-quality-control/200/
Yes, I remember this thread - a good read after you skim through the trollery. There was some indications of production/material differences but IIRC nothing really conclusive towards declining quality.

Read through the FTC documents to see what was involved.  It may help explain some of the changes on how they are marked. 
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard
Thanks for sharing. The FTC does a similar thing as it used to be done in Brazil: assembly must be done in country to be considered "Made in <country>". The issue is that it does not necessarily guarantee the quality of the supply chain, but I personally am pretty sure Fluke would never risk their reputation by skimping on that. 

(off-topic) Did you see this?

https://youtu.be/QSmiMlWEpy0
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 02:52:54 am by rsjsouza »
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2360 on: February 17, 2018, 10:33:51 am »
I've been commenting about his 50,000 cycle test in the sticky 121GW discussion tread.  I understand the fixture is working well and they plan to add a resistance measurement to it.   Currently they define a cycle to be what Brymen and I consider a half cycle.   It would be great if they would read the switch resistance for each cycle and run the same number of cycles.   We could then compare the data they collect with the other meters I have looked at.    I don't think the small difference in the speed his is cycling would make much, if any difference. 

I like the Panavise for a few reasons.  I don't plan on testing very many meters and this was zero investment, plus it gets used for other things.  It's a very flexible setup for running various meters.  I can see the meter while it is cycling and note any problems.   

I like using a PC for automating test.  It's easy to get something setup and collecting and post processing the data is a snap.

Looking forward to seeing how their testing comes out. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2361 on: February 18, 2018, 10:11:00 am »
Center stage, a brand new Fluke 87V hot off the production line.  No bias and no excuses.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2362 on: February 18, 2018, 11:26:23 am »
Woohoo! New toys. :-DMM
I TEA.
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2363 on: February 19, 2018, 07:39:59 pm »
The Fluke 87V Part I.

https://youtu.be/DA77DYGE6IM
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2364 on: February 19, 2018, 07:56:23 pm »
But I can offer to run another Fluke 87V which was peoples third pick after the Gossen.

We know the 87V I looked at could not come close to the performance of any of the the Chinese made Flukes I have looked.   I was asked about the revision of the meter I last ran and it was not the most recent.

Revision, shmevision. If it had a "V" in the name then it's had plenty of time to be revised by Fluke. Anything else is just people looking for excuses.

What  I am thinking is to buy a brand new one, directly from Fluke and repeat all of the transient tests.

Has anybody at Fluke shown any interest in your work?

Send them the latest video of the Brymen - the one where you mention that Brymen send you a box of free meters.  :popcorn:
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2365 on: February 19, 2018, 08:10:59 pm »
Intro.   

https://youtu.be/3dxEmi4FGT0?t=817

When the wire touching the edge of the beaker glowed red hot I was waiting for the beaker to crack and water to flood across a big table full of electricity...

« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 08:18:35 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2366 on: February 19, 2018, 08:55:53 pm »
I'm sure the rubber shoe on the Fluke 87 will soon "age" to match the color of the kickstand.

 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2367 on: February 19, 2018, 11:52:18 pm »
Has anybody at Fluke shown any interest in your work?

Send them the latest video of the Brymen - the one where you mention that Brymen send you a box of free meters.  :popcorn:

No they have never expressed any interest. 

I'm sure the rubber shoe on the Fluke 87 will soon "age" to match the color of the kickstand.

I highly doubt it.  I watched the video and it's difficult to see the color difference so I have attached a few pictures of the new and older meter.  I tried to get a closeup of the surface finish of the boot as well.  With them being so interested in the Fluke colors, I would never expect to see this poor of quality on what I understand is their number one selling meter, the one all meters are compared against, not to mention about $400. 

Then again, I am more curious to see why this switch is grinding.   I am interested in seeing the effects of the life cycle test.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2368 on: February 20, 2018, 12:23:00 am »
Regarding the Fluke's "yellow", just took this recently, its on Sun's light and with manual white balance compensated.

They're just different, at least to my eyes when saw them physically, and also at my monitor at this photo below.


Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2369 on: February 20, 2018, 04:11:43 am »
"...I'll use the Brymen here to try to troubleshoot the 87V..." Ouch!

I guess the 87V falls into the category of "electrically snowflaked meter"TM.

The mechanical properties (color and silk, mechanical switch) are most probably due to the growing pains of adjusting to a new supplier and/or manufacturing house. 

Regarding Fluke apparently not paying attention to your tests, I have a hunch they are. Just not admitting it.

The change in certifications seems to have removed the listing at UL - I know that a listed product requires long term commitments regarding quality inspections and other details, which is a continuous stream of negative revenue.

This and the cheapening of the product may indicate many things, ranging from the influence of the bean counters at Danaher to the market analysts that are planning a sunset of this product. This theory may be solid if other brand new Fluke models still have listed markings on them, which isolates this model as the "ugly duck". On the other hand, setting up a new manufacturing plant for something that is being phased out looks like a bad move. Without sales figures over time, it is impossible to know for sure.

At any rate, I suspect the market for 20000 count industrial meters may be shrinking - I wouldn't be surprised if electricians are choosing simpler and cheaper meters (even from Fluke), as they rarely require the resolution and only a few of the additional features of an 87V. As for the electronics market, the competition is quite fierce nowadays especially given the liability in this market is severely reduced.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2370 on: February 20, 2018, 07:42:56 am »
I also think 87V is a meter with identity crisis... Too fancy to sit on the bottom of tool case in oil and dirt and a hammer on top, and not really best electronics meter out there.. I also think 189 was much better meter for electronics.. For electrician, likes of BM257, and simpler Flukes are much cheaper and excellent choice..

I noticed that new one is missing one very important mark: TUV GS certification mark.  It shows TUV SUD, meaning that TUV did testing (probably they did CE certification for them). But no GS mark.
TUV GS mark signifies that product is safety tested to higher standards than basic minimums for CE.....

I'm really sad to see Fluke is slipping. I have been using it for many years, privately and professionally, from model 8020B, 8060A, 73 III, 87 in few incarnations, 189 and Scopemeter 97...  They were good quality and innovative.. Not any more.. Now they are simply decent, for too much money...

And 87 V on this test is not even decent... It's in a UNI-T class... and in EU it is cca 500€..

For that money I could get BM869S and BM525 with logging and PC cable instead ...
Oh wait, I DID ....   :-)

As always, nice work Joe, looking forward to the rest of the test.

Regards,

Sinisa
 
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Online joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2371 on: February 20, 2018, 01:28:47 pm »
Found the problem with why the 87V would display an open above 470 degrees C and have made a change to my circuit to support the 87V's unique feature.  Personally, I think they could have done a better job integrating the high res mode to make it more transparent.   

https://youtu.be/iEo1W4tWjEM
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2372 on: February 21, 2018, 06:05:42 am »
Quite interesting is how the 87V deals with the "hi-res" mode - does that stay enabled after the meter is power cycled? If not, that would greatly detract from a usability standpoint.

Just :horse:, even the UT61E comes with 0.01\$\Omega\$ resolution by default.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2373 on: February 21, 2018, 09:40:10 am »
Regarding "Made In" vs "Assembled In", this can be due to evolving regulatory regimes or if they haven't evolved yet, minimizing regulatory risk.  This has already happened to other industries.  For example, what do you mean by "Made in America?"  Certainly the silicon wasn't fabbed there, and if you're buying parts how can you be sure your suppliers won't change part of it's manufacture to overseas?
Compounding the issue is perhaps you want to sell the same product in several markets all with their aligned but have separate regulatory regimes.  Maybe one of them tightens up the "Made In" meaning.  Best to avoid the whole situation and say what's true, that you at least assembled it in the USA.

The change in certifications seems to have removed the listing at UL - I know that a listed product requires long term commitments regarding quality inspections and other details, which is a continuous stream of negative revenue.

The UL-CSA mark is equivalent to a UL mark.  There's no need to have both any more as both agencies can cross certify by agreement.  Fluke moved to CSA many years ago for no doubt good reasons which have nothing to do with "long term commitments regarding quality." 
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2374 on: February 21, 2018, 12:30:03 pm »
Back about 10 posts, I linked the FTC document describing the requirements for the various markings.

Someone posted about how I had zero'ed out the 87V causing the large error in the reading.  Pictures showing my old HP in 4-wire, not zero'ed with leads shorted and leads attached to the common leads of the 4-wire 1% 0.1 ohm resistor. 

The 87V manual only seems to show the 0.1ohm res, so I would assume +/-0.2% FS + 2*0.1 ohms, rather then 2*0.01 ohms.  Not the best manual for a meter so mature and with such a high price tag.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 


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