Poll

Are you interested in seeing more handheld meters tested?

This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
3 (6.4%)
 Yes, I would like to more meters tested.
44 (93.6%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.  (Read 530459 times)

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Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2450 on: March 10, 2018, 02:48:40 am »
Smoke was rolling out of the 87V tonight and I'm not even to the fun stuff yet....
:scared: That was bait and you know it..
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2451 on: March 10, 2018, 03:54:41 am »
Smoke was rolling out of the 87V tonight and I'm not even to the fun stuff yet....
:scared: That was bait and you know it..
Just keeping you in the loop.    I thought people on this forum liked getting the second by second updates....  :-DD   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline geekGee

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2452 on: March 10, 2018, 06:10:39 am »
I don't know about all of that.  My channel is tiny.  About 10% of the followers will view it.  Of those, about 10% will rate it.  It's down in the noise floor somewhere, where it belongs.   

Well I guess that makes me 10% of the 10%.  I thoroughly enjoy your videos.  I will admit when I watch them I often think to myself that I should be bored but I find them fascinating.

And I am not an EE... I'm a lowly 30 year veteran in IT with a recent interest in electronics.

I do own an 87V I purchased in 2014 so am looking forward to your next installment.  I bought it to supplement my 83 (no suffix) which I think I bought around 1990.

Keep up the good work Joe!!!
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2453 on: March 10, 2018, 09:15:51 am »
Smoke was rolling out of the 87V tonight and I'm not even to the fun stuff yet....

It failed the AC line test?
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2454 on: March 10, 2018, 12:16:36 pm »
Smoke was rolling out of the 87V tonight and I'm not even to the fun stuff yet....
It failed the AC line test?
To be clear, I wouldn't necessarily consider smoke rolling out a failure.   They should have seen the smoke when the meter was certified.  If the agencies are all fine with it, so am I.    Of course I have done far worse to meters during this particular test and no smoke.  Possible feature. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2455 on: March 10, 2018, 01:35:59 pm »
....  Possible feature. ....

ROLFMAO  :-DD

Fluke 87 VI  NAE (Native American Edition) with built in smoke signals...........
 
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Offline ProBang2

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2456 on: March 10, 2018, 01:48:08 pm »
Smoke was rolling out of the 87V tonight and I'm not even to the fun stuff yet....
:scared: That was bait and you know it..
Just keeping you in the loop.    I thought people on this forum liked getting the second by second updates....  :-DD   

If anyone is out there who don´t know the meaning of the german expression "Salami Taktik" - that´s the perfect example to explain it...    :-DD
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2457 on: March 10, 2018, 02:41:12 pm »
Smoke was rolling out of the 87V tonight and I'm not even to the fun stuff yet....
:scared: That was bait and you know it..
Just keeping you in the loop.    I thought people on this forum liked getting the second by second updates....  :-DD   
If anyone is out there who don´t know the meaning of the german expression "Salami Taktik" - that´s the perfect example to explain it...    :-DD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salami_tactics
Quote
Salami tactics, also known as the salami-slice strategy or salami attacks,[1] is a divide and conquer process of threats and alliances used to overcome opposition. With it, an aggressor can influence and eventually dominate a landscape, typically political, piece by piece. In this fashion, the opposition is eliminated "slice by slice" until one realizes (too late) that it is gone in its entirety. In some cases it includes the creation of several factions within the opposing political party and then dismantling that party from the inside, without causing the 'sliced' sides to protest. Salami tactics are most likely to succeed when the perpetrators keep their true long-term motives hidden and maintain a posture of cooperativeness and helpfulness while engaged in the intended gradual subversion.

Quote
a gradual attack on an opposing position, group, etc.

That's your perspective.  I was fully content to say the 87V was just not a very robust meter.  Anyone who does a search just on this website would see a fair number of damaged 87Vs.  But for what ever reason, that was not good enough for a fair number of people who asked that I look at one more.   

I fully admit to showing the data in small increments or slices.  If I were getting paid by YT, it would be one way to raise more money but seeing I don't use ads and such there is nothing to be financially gained.   What it does do is provide the people who wanted to see another one,  an opportunity to digest the data and ask questions.   

I really have no long term hidden agenda beyond just seeing how the various meters perform to some standard method of testing and maybe helping educate people about how the meters are designed and not to do stupid things with them.     Hard to say if I made any dent in the later. 

(really poor wording, spelling.....)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 04:13:53 pm by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2458 on: March 10, 2018, 04:11:37 pm »
Part 4,  Looking at the shield problem, testing the current inputs and ESD testing.  I also answer another question.     

https://youtu.be/ar23yj3YOHw
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline ProBang2

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2459 on: March 10, 2018, 04:15:41 pm »
No offense intended.  :-//

But giving informations slice by slice, probably leading to a big surprise (at least for some fanboys), that is "Salami Taktik".
Hence the last postings in this thread are a far, far better example for the explanation of this expression as it is used in the dayly language than a wiki article (reduced to the strict military meaning). 

Enough OT, I assume. Back to topic:
Time for the next slice of information???

PS.: I´m obviously not up to date. Happy to see your new video. Oh, this suspense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2460 on: March 10, 2018, 05:14:37 pm »
No offense intended.  :-//

But giving informations slice by slice, probably leading to a big surprise (at least for some fanboys), that is "Salami Taktik".
Hence the last postings in this thread are a far, far better example for the explanation of this expression as it is used in the dayly language than a wiki article (reduced to the strict military meaning). 

Enough OT, I assume. Back to topic:
Time for the next slice of information???

PS.: I´m obviously not up to date. Happy to see your new video. Oh, this suspense...
That is very interesting.   I could not find the exact match "Salami Taktik" but the military origins is what came up. 

Transient tests, the life cycle the switch, long term MOV test and drop are still to come. 

The transient tests could take a full day, or just a few seconds.   Life cycle is 2.5 days.  MOV will be another week.   

I have been thinking about the MOV test and am still on the fence if I just want to record the leakage before and after or maybe measure it over time using the PC.  Maybe have some yellow sticky notes with formulas and let you guess the actual conversions...   :-DD    Any suggestions on what you would like to see is fine. 

My guess is we won't see anything happen at the 1.2KV level.  If we do, maybe I will run that BM869s that Brymen sent.  I have been thinking about other ways to test it against the F87V anyways because it seems that is what the following discussion boiled down to.  That's what I took away from it.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/if-brymen-bm869s-is-cheaper-and-as-good-why-people-would-still-buy-fluke/     
 


How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline ConnorGames

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2461 on: March 10, 2018, 07:37:20 pm »
With all of the love that the BM869s seems to be getting here, I figured you might want to investigate a potentially dangerous failure mode I encountered with mine about a year ago. The metal locking ring came loose from the back of the range switch shaft and was left floating around the inside of meter. I don't know exactly how much of an impact a piece of metal this size would have on the safety of the meter, but it was certainly worrying.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2462 on: March 10, 2018, 08:01:09 pm »
With all of the love that the BM869s seems to be getting here, I figured you might want to investigate a potentially dangerous failure mode I encountered with mine about a year ago. The metal locking ring came loose from the back of the range switch shaft and was left floating around the inside of meter. I don't know exactly how much of an impact a piece of metal this size would have on the safety of the meter, but it was certainly worrying.
While I normally try to steer this blog away from safety, surely any loose metal would be a concern for anyone.   We have nothing to go by other than what you wrote.  I can offer that I have taken mine apart a few times and that clip was a pain to get off of there.  It's the first I have heard of one coming off, on any meter.  Did you buy the meter new?  Had you taken it apart before?  I assume you reinstalled it.  Did it lock into place or was it loose?  Did you take pictures to document this and then contact Brymen about it and if so, what was their response?   I would appreciate hearing their response and any other details you care to share about it.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2463 on: March 11, 2018, 11:22:45 pm »
Attempting to overcome the lack of equations with more post-its.    No doubt this test will go very smoothly. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2464 on: March 12, 2018, 12:24:22 am »
A person had posted the attached bone to pick with me after posting my last video.   This is in regards to my cutting open the HRC fuse.  I've attempted to look at the clearance and creepage for the current inputs before.  I don't have a 500VA supply as the standard calls for but I am really just interested in seeing if anything starts to breakdown at the 2X level.    In the case of the 87V, I really don't like that sleeved battery wires running between the fuse holders, however at least at 2KV it does not seem to have a problem with it. 

That said, one comment they made I found of interest:
Quote
You performed a completely useless test by emptying the fuse out. It's simulating a fault which would not exist. In the field you either have an intact fuse, or a blown one.

Does a fuse really only have two state?   For fun, if I take say an inch of some 30 AWG wire and connect it to my 20A power supply, then slowly increase the current until the wire opens you may find that the point where it breaks that the wires are still very close to one another.   This is how I opened up the fuse that I used for these tests and when I cut open the fuse, the filament was still mostly there.  No molten filler and such.   So when I attempted to apply a few KV to it, it would light up. 

Had I connected this same fuse to my half cycle simulator, I suspect there would be nothing left of the filament and the fuse would not have broke over at the 2KV test voltage.  I've made a few videos showing various fuses being blown with various levels of energy.   I doubt anyone here would believe connecting my fuse powered rocket to a 100A, 2V power supply would get it to lift off.   It may actually be possible to get it to be an open to the 2V supply but still be able to launch.   Similar to how I test the meters, if I apply a 5KV pulse and it arcs over, then feed the energy from the half cycle simulator into it....  Well, maybe.

Anyway, I don't believe there are just two states.   

https://youtu.be/xLDok9Sm07Q?t=117
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online tautech

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2465 on: March 12, 2018, 12:38:35 am »
It's alright Joe, it was as plain as day (to me) what you were trying to accomplish......that sleeved battery cable running through the fuse holder would give me the heebie jeebies too !  :scared:
IMO, it's a desperate design repair bodge.

My Dr. EE lecturer (retired) mate would describe it as 'gawd awful' !


He didn't so much carry just one bone to pick with you, he was carrying a whole graveyards's worth.  ::)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 12:40:44 am by tautech »
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Offline IanB

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2466 on: March 12, 2018, 12:41:15 am »
I can confirm that those fuses don't always blow with a high energy mistake.

I broke my duck the other week and blew a multimeter fuse for the first time in my life. To my intense annoyance it was one of the expensive fuses in my BM869s. That'll teach me to be careless with my measurements  :)

Anyway, to cut a long story short I was measuring the current in various lamps to compare with the reading from a Kill A Watt clone I bought, testing for accuracy. Looking at various LED and CFL lamps, I was using the 500 mA range. Then I moved over to some incandescent lamps, and I connected what I thought was a 60 W lamp. Unfortunately it was a 100 W lamp and pop went the fuse  :(

I did not enjoy having to spend $8 to replace the fuse, but I doubt the fuse wire was vaporized or had much of a gap in it. I suppose I could break open the fuse to find out...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 12:45:47 am by IanB »
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2467 on: March 12, 2018, 01:29:30 am »
I have seen a few cases where a similar sleeve has been used.   The attached is showing my CEM meter where they use it to route the common return for the high current mode.  Good layouts are works of art. 

I did not enjoy having to spend $8 to replace the fuse, but I doubt the fuse wire was vaporized or had much of a gap in it. I suppose I could break open the fuse to find out...

In the name of science, I would and then post a few pictures.  The woven fuse I show could be cut with my wife's shears with ease.  Maybe just a sharp knife to reduce damaging the evidence.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Daruosha

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2468 on: March 12, 2018, 11:31:13 am »
No offense intended.  :-//

But giving informations slice by slice, probably leading to a big surprise (at least for some fanboys), that is "Salami Taktik".
Hence the last postings in this thread are a far, far better example for the explanation of this expression as it is used in the dayly language than a wiki article (reduced to the strict military meaning). 

Enough OT, I assume. Back to topic:
Time for the next slice of information???

PS.: I´m obviously not up to date. Happy to see your new video. Oh, this suspense...

He's doing a very comprehensive and detailed series of test and I think we all understand these tests take time. Chemical test, assembly analyze, detailed functional test, trying each and every feature and compare to other equivalent competitors and so on.

What I admire about joeqsmoth is his sophisticated approach to test the meters. As far as I remember, no one in the industry has done such a set of massive experiments and tests over the broad range of multimeters.

In fact I'd love more detailed tests like what he's doing with fluke 87V, and I find huge learning values in each episode (it's me and how I see the EE world).


BTW, i took 5 fluke 87V's apart, purchased from many years ago to last month, and all of them had bent shields. I guess no one in the assembly line gave a toss about it.

Thanks Joe and please keep up the good work.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 01:06:36 pm by Daruosha »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2469 on: March 12, 2018, 12:10:05 pm »
BTW, i took 5 fluke 87V's purchased from many years ago to last month, and all of them had bent shields. I guess no one in the assembly line gave a toss about it.

The only way that's possible is if there's been:
a) no quality control at all for five years (and the exact same stubborn worker putting them together),
or
b) It's by design.

Neither of those makes any sense to me.  :-//
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2470 on: March 12, 2018, 12:26:20 pm »
Or it was being put in by automated process (machine)  that is not setup right.  And there is tendency not to do detailed QC in that  case because machines don't make mistakes 😒
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2471 on: March 12, 2018, 02:44:43 pm »
Or it was being put in by automated process (machine)  that is not setup right.  And there is tendency not to do detailed QC in that  case because machines don't make mistakes 😒

When I say "worker" I include machines.  :)

("robot" comes from the Czech word for "worker")
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2472 on: March 12, 2018, 03:56:24 pm »
Or it was being put in by automated process (machine)  that is not setup right.  And there is tendency not to do detailed QC in that  case because machines don't make mistakes 😒

When I say "worker" I include machines.  :)

("robot" comes from the Czech word for "worker")

I know :-)    "rabota" is valid word in Croatian ...... Kind of archaic, but valid...

Anyways, my experience is that managers tend to skimp on QA if it was assembled on robots.... They rely on hope that automated process is well tuned and will produce within parameters...
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2473 on: March 12, 2018, 04:20:03 pm »
or
b) It's by design.

This is somehow looking more likely. Maybe it's a "tamper evident" feature? Anyone who takes the meter apart is likely to reassemble it "properly" and therefore leave evidence that they disassembled it. Stranger things have happened...
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2474 on: March 12, 2018, 05:27:26 pm »
or
b) It's by design.

Maybe it's a "tamper evident" feature? Anyone who takes the meter apart is likely to reassemble it "properly" and therefore leave evidence that they disassembled it.

LOL! A trap for engineers.
I TEA.
 


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