Poll

Are you interested in seeing more handheld meters tested?

This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
3 (6.4%)
 Yes, I would like to more meters tested.
44 (93.6%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.  (Read 531460 times)

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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3000 on: November 29, 2018, 09:29:43 pm »
malagas, I am almost sure that CAT II in this case is probably arbitrary to restrict the usage scenario to low voltage environments.


I have a Fluke LVD2 and it says straight CAT IV 600V


Although it has several usage warnings.


I would imagine they are common here as well in the electrical world.  They would be much safer than jamming metal probes in things.  John Ward had made a video titled "Proving Dead - Mains Electricity".    May be worth watching.   Not being an electrician, I will leave the training videos to much more qualified people. 
I watched this video when it was out and John got a lot of flak due to his dissing of screwdriver testers. I agree with the criticisms; the contactless testers can be quite unreliable (if not more) than the screwdrivers. I have encountered zillions of scenarios where false negatives were given by the contactless.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3001 on: November 29, 2018, 09:40:37 pm »
Thanks for the enlightment.  I'm using this at the sockets, power cords from appliances and a project development..

I have heard about false positives which for proving live shut off can be inacurate, but has the safety aspect of the non contact. Again i liked the fluke t110 and John Ward did a video about the recalls of this device, when he probes the live with the main probe without any contact.  :

https://youtu.be/F_Hqp5gSYrU?t=470

I'll see if i can get some information about the tests in safety regarding to this devices
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 09:52:26 pm by malagas_on_fire »
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3002 on: November 29, 2018, 10:09:42 pm »
Thanks for the enlightment.  I'm using this at the sockets, power cords from appliances and a project development..
For this usage the contactless should be fine. Just beware if you are trying to probe through very thick or shielded connections - the contactless may not catch the voltage.

I have heard about false positives which for proving live shut off can be inacurate, but has the safety aspect of the non contact.
Since you mentioned, all my contactless gadgets (the LVD2, the Keysight U1282A, the Surpeer AV4) flicker/beep when I move them over or towards a metal surface - a disturbance in the magnetic field probably causes an induced current on its sensor.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3003 on: November 29, 2018, 10:25:11 pm »
i belived i've posted that in a comment above and yes it doesn't work on the F type sockets here. I have to use the G type ( UK) adapter to do a proper test. But thanks to remember.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2001089/#msg2001089

The other pen testers recommends previous probation before testing and yes NCV relies on change on magnetic field.. not 100% accurate indeed.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3004 on: November 29, 2018, 11:19:47 pm »
This looks like a decent forum to join if you are interested in electrical work and safety.  Reading through some of the threads, looks like many are professionals.   Then again, this thread has pictures of cats.  Hard to beat that.

https://brainfiller.com/arcflashforum/index.php

First hit on Google: https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/70/70de1fda-51a3-4ca1-bc53-53b45618926a.pdf
Looks like they are held to the same set of standards.   I have no idea how they actually conduct the tests.

Here is a good read:
https://brainfiller.com/arcflashforum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2203

« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 11:27:26 pm by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online IanB

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3005 on: November 29, 2018, 11:40:33 pm »
I've had no problems using non-contact volt alert sticks when doing home electrical work. I touch the detector to live conductors and it lights up and beeps. I isolate the circuit and the same conductors no longer beep, thus verifying that I have opened the right breaker.

False alerts don't bother me. For example my iPhone detects positive when it is plugged in and charging. But this is not a relevant use case for the voltage detector so I see no reason to worry about it.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3006 on: November 30, 2018, 12:12:04 am »
Didn know they called wiggies... and the impact on the semiconductors... PLC's from that forum and i subjected the project to that pen  :palm:

And exploding wiggies. ??? yeah that makes me question more the CAT ratings :P or photoninduction work ..
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 12:16:01 am by malagas_on_fire »
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3007 on: November 30, 2018, 12:17:46 am »
I thought a wiggy was the old clacker with a solenoid in it. 

**********

Yep.  Amazed what you can find with a modern search engine and a couple of  words.

https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-Wiggy-Tester-differ-from-a-multimeter
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 12:21:31 am by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3008 on: November 30, 2018, 12:35:23 am »
If you search for images or catalogues ohh man... it goes to home depot.. and finally we got some wiggies:

http://dicimo.com/blog/remodeling-your-kitchen-should-you-get-a-dishwasher-pretty-tips-ideas/

This looks like the one that was on the head.... Or maybe this one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Klein-69115-Solenoid-Voltage-Tester/dp/B000KII9SM

[More Editing...]

At least the product above says wiggy :P
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 12:47:59 am by malagas_on_fire »
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Offline Towger

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3009 on: November 30, 2018, 08:23:06 pm »
It is easy to destroy a Fluke Voltalert, you just use the batteries which came with it.  They will eventually leak without warning (but still work) ending in a dead Fluke.

Phontonic is still around, but pulled his last couple of videos.

https://youtu.be/vlO5Hugwn2A
 
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3010 on: November 30, 2018, 08:57:15 pm »
Well the battery leak also applies to other aparatus or drop it from higher place :or water divingP Very impressed with the video of king and taylor...  :-DD , looks like a salesman :P

Let's see if there is any information about CAT testing on this NCV's Pens...

By the way no manual in pdf for my specific pen from the seller, but the one from the klein tools serves well.
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3011 on: December 07, 2018, 10:03:50 pm »
Hi

Is this multimeter also under your test Surpeer AV4?

"Vbe 048: 20000 contagens por $13?"

20000 counts for $13 ? It's not going to take much longer in the video  :-DD

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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3012 on: December 07, 2018, 10:10:53 pm »
joeqsmith would have a field day with this meter; starting at about 33:30 I put the non-volt ranges through a ring generator (90VAC, 20Hz, but the load probably took it down to about 40VAC) and the meter goes completely haywire.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3013 on: December 07, 2018, 10:25:01 pm »
I have one pocket meter ( UT120C) which trips in Hz mode when plugging the lead suddenly or do any tiny friction in the 230V 50Hz AC socket or even in isolation transformer, same voltage , freq, 6VA . Thankfully this was an offer...
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3014 on: December 07, 2018, 10:39:58 pm »
Well this one doesn't do that and doesn't work well on my sockets . I have to use a UK to EU(Type G to F ??? blob:https://www.dropbox.com/1b062708-409e-4ccc-b9c3-485785168d62 )  adapter to work on the plugs  :-DD It doesn't trip with DC voltages... Now its time to perform a test on a Isolated transformer , 220 VAC 6VA .

I've found the manual of the model i've purchased. it is a VoltAlert 1AC-D :

http://www.avtechtrading.info/uploads/TOOACV01%20AC%20Voltage%20Tester.pdf

« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 10:46:50 pm by malagas_on_fire »
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3015 on: December 08, 2018, 11:28:02 am »
joeqsmith would have a field day with this meter; starting at about 33:30 I put the non-volt ranges through a ring generator (90VAC, 20Hz, but the load probably took it down to about 40VAC) and the meter goes completely haywire.
I have not seen any other reviews for this meter.  Someone had pointed it out to me in a YT comment.  They had a 3D drawing of the meter and I could see it was similar to other low end meters I have looked at and figured why bother.   

I don't know your language but I watched your video anyway.  It's funny how the brain will put a story together just based on your voice and gestures.  There is not much to these handheld meters which also helps in following along. 

Yes, that input trace to what appears to be the ground plane looks bad.  The large fuse you show appears to be the same that was in the Meterk. The end caps will just pull off on that one.  You should find it is filled.  On the Meterk, the smaller fuse was NOT filled.  Contrary to what Fungus believes, not all ceramic fuses are filled safety fuses.   You would need to pull it apart and have a look.    It took a while before I figured out that you were using a telephone ring generator.  Google pictures to the rescue.   :-DD

In the end, I get the feeling there was not a lot of praise coming from you.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3016 on: December 08, 2018, 11:57:00 am »
I still haven't managed to blow the fuses in that meter yet. The other day I used it to measure the current flowing through a 20,000V CO2 laser tube, but no luck. 

(18mA)

When I do I'll be sure to pull them apart and look inside.  :popcorn:

 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3017 on: December 08, 2018, 02:11:26 pm »
The fuses are filled with air or sand and of course the fillament :p  :-DD

Just kidding.
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3018 on: December 08, 2018, 08:47:07 pm »
Well at least we know with a lot of volts and amps they will break :





From photoninduction :P Big fat capacitor

« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 08:49:43 pm by malagas_on_fire »
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3019 on: December 08, 2018, 10:28:54 pm »
Some details about the testing but not much...

https://youtu.be/9kcHAnGOhxo?t=30
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3020 on: December 08, 2018, 10:42:27 pm »
A little higher energy test setups than what I use to benchmark the meters.   Here they talk about the filler and it being packed.   I think there is a bit more to it than what you see posted here.  Just add some sand, its free sort of posts....

https://youtu.be/Uj0oHUSSW_8?t=13
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3021 on: December 08, 2018, 10:50:09 pm »
joeqsmith would have a field day with this meter; starting at about 33:30 I put the non-volt ranges through a ring generator (90VAC, 20Hz, but the load probably took it down to about 40VAC) and the meter goes completely haywire.
I have not seen any other reviews for this meter.  Someone had pointed it out to me in a YT comment.  They had a 3D drawing of the meter and I could see it was similar to other low end meters I have looked at and figured why bother.   

I don't know your language but I watched your video anyway.  It's funny how the brain will put a story together just based on your voice and gestures.  There is not much to these handheld meters which also helps in following along. 

Yes, that input trace to what appears to be the ground plane looks bad.  The large fuse you show appears to be the same that was in the Meterk. The end caps will just pull off on that one.  You should find it is filled.  On the Meterk, the smaller fuse was NOT filled.  Contrary to what Fungus believes, not all ceramic fuses are filled safety fuses.   You would need to pull it apart and have a look.    It took a while before I figured out that you were using a telephone ring generator.  Google pictures to the rescue.   :-DD

In the end, I get the feeling there was not a lot of praise coming from you.
Thank you; that is truly an honor to have you watching something from me - I learned so many nuggets from your videos. I would love to have the energy and time to create decent captions, but unfortunately this is a full time job on itself. I could do dubbing as well, but unfortunately this means almost re-doing the video. Oh, well...

Regarding the details, you are right that I had a bit of trouble with the input traces and their lack of creepage, but I was very impressed by the quality of the PCB material - the copper is quite thick for your regular cheapie meter, and the amount of via stitching is impressive. I had my suspicions about the fuse, their lacking specs (less than nominal 1kV) and their ludicrous 100kA claim (although it may be mildly possible at the rated 380V).

I also commented on the very lonely PTC to protect the inputs, which is located after the switch (something you mention in your videos and I learned to pay attention), as well as the vias on the middle of the wiper contacts, which may wear out after years of very intense use.

I have been using the ring generator (a BlackMagic module scavenged from an ancient Gandalf ISDN modem) for quite some time when testing the AC range of my meters. However, it was the first time I put it to try to break a meter - it has low enough energy to not blow it on my face, but high enough to show my audience the reason why protection is important. I make a statement on a caption of what would happen if a user accidentally connects the probes in an outlet, considering it was behaving so badly with such low energy.

Overall I think you can put this meter to very good use in electronics if you are on a shoestring - that is the case of most of the audience, given that import taxes in Brazil are ludicrous and an A-brand can easily go to 2~3x the price. With that scenario, folks tend to be a lot more forgiving of a meter's issues and may take some dangerous risks. But you are right that I wasn't much cheerful due to all the issues shown.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3022 on: December 09, 2018, 12:17:55 am »
Funny, I wasn't thinking you were trying to damage the meter with the phone ring generator.   You could get a piezo grill starter if you wanted to try and zap one.  The problem I see is that they are not consistent from unit to unit.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3023 on: December 09, 2018, 12:45:59 am »
Funny, I wasn't thinking you were trying to damage the meter with the phone ring generator.   You could get a piezo grill starter if you wanted to try and zap one.  The problem I see is that they are not consistent from unit to unit.
Well, a manner of speaking. I wasn't necessarily trying to damage the meter but instead putting to test if their claimed 550V of overvoltage protection was actually true.

I think a distinction between the grill starter and the ring generator is that the latter is closer to the scenario where someone has the wrong range - it takes several seconds to realize the meter is under duress of a continuous voltage. The grill starter and all the tests you do are similar to a true transient hitting the equipment completely at random.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3024 on: December 09, 2018, 12:23:24 pm »
Some details about the testing but not much...

https://youtu.be/9kcHAnGOhxo?t=30

Nice one, the switch is activated mechanically by remote wire to blow thats fuses. Not much details on what load they were indeed...
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