Poll

Are you interested in seeing more handheld meters tested?

This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
3 (6.4%)
 Yes, I would like to more meters tested.
44 (93.6%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.  (Read 532176 times)

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Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3025 on: December 09, 2018, 12:25:20 pm »
A little higher energy test setups than what I use to benchmark the meters.   Here they talk about the filler and it being packed.   I think there is a bit more to it than what you see posted here.  Just add some sand, its free sort of posts....

https://youtu.be/Uj0oHUSSW_8?t=13

Yes but they talk about "specific" quartz sand and also special care about compression.
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Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3026 on: December 09, 2018, 12:30:55 pm »
Funny, I wasn't thinking you were trying to damage the meter with the phone ring generator.   You could get a piezo grill starter if you wanted to try and zap one.  The problem I see is that they are not consistent from unit to unit.
Well, a manner of speaking. I wasn't necessarily trying to damage the meter but instead putting to test if their claimed 550V of overvoltage protection was actually true.

I think a distinction between the grill starter and the ring generator is that the latter is closer to the scenario where someone has the wrong range - it takes several seconds to realize the meter is under duress of a continuous voltage. The grill starter and all the tests you do are similar to a true transient hitting the equipment completely at random.

The lots of residue of flux and poorly soldered jacks would be bad on a 230V diy circuit such as a triac driver, when for example you do some friction on the electric plugs and causes arcs. It ill buzz a little bit, but also trip the meters as beeping and OL. Thats when it is needed to cut power ASAP and redo connections. Not sure if would arc in the flux residue or the bad soldering.   
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3027 on: December 09, 2018, 03:50:48 pm »
I have seen much worse solder flux residue around jacks and HV resistors that did not arc when the regular 1kV is applied. A triac dimmer could see some problems if the temperatures become very high- although to melt flux I suspect the dimmer would be toasted a long time before.

When I give my verdict of a cheap meter I take into consideration also what I have seen before from the bottom of the barrel: loose metal (springs, solder blobs, wiper contacts) and other "creative work" on solder joints and components. This meter was well put together for the price.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3028 on: December 09, 2018, 04:29:10 pm »
Some of the later low cost meters I have looked at from ANENG, MeterK are actually assembled well compared with my much higher cost Extech that I use.   The new revision of the Harbor Freight meters still don't have very good construction.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3029 on: December 10, 2018, 12:54:43 am »
I've openend the broken anengish meter and had also some flux residue on the front side:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1924219/#msg1924219

Yes it is very good built quality and lots of features if considering the price .

Is it possible to create some sort of capacitive controlled, load to test the breakdown current of the HRC fuses ? That would require to test under the maximum voltage has well... lots of energy envolved.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3030 on: December 10, 2018, 01:49:03 am »
I've openend the broken anengish meter and had also some flux residue on the front side:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1924219/#msg1924219

Yes it is very good built quality and lots of features if considering the price .

Is it possible to create some sort of capacitive controlled, load to test the breakdown current of the HRC fuses ? That would require to test under the maximum voltage has well... lots of energy envolved.

We can see the size of some of that test equipment in those videos.  I wonder if we found the standards they mention, if they describe in more detail what sort of waveforms they use, how the equipment is calibrated and such.   I wonder just how many Joules we are talking about.   

Nothing anyone would ever attempt at home, we except ProtonicInduction.   I think it was in the very last video he made he shows the large capacitor bank that he put together.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3031 on: December 10, 2018, 09:52:39 am »
Nothing anyone would ever attempt at home, we except ProtonicInduction.   I think it was in the very last video he made he shows the large capacitor bank that he put together.   

Did he make no more videos after that? Has he vanished from the internet?
 

Online bd139

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3032 on: December 10, 2018, 10:14:14 am »
He said something bad (and correct) about the mess that immigration services make in the UK, then removed the video and disappeared. He's probably banged up in some dungeon somewhere.
 

Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3033 on: December 10, 2018, 10:17:19 am »
He said something bad (and correct) about the mess that immigration services make in the UK, then removed the video and disappeared. He's probably banged up in some dungeon somewhere.

Not in some dungeon...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2003621/#msg2003621

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Online bd139

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3034 on: December 10, 2018, 10:38:00 am »
Ahha! Well spotted whoever found that.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3035 on: December 10, 2018, 10:01:41 pm »
joeqsmith
Please what was the verdict on your new Fluke 87V ? If I understand right it passed the high voltage test according to CAT rating but there was some wear on the rotary switch?
Is Fluke 87V worth buying when compared to Hioki and Keysight??
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 10:09:13 pm by Hydrawerk »
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Offline IanB

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3036 on: December 10, 2018, 10:30:59 pm »
Is Fluke 87V worth buying when compared to Hioki and Keysight??

"Worth buying" is a very subjective opinion. The facts are that the 87V is a somewhat old design and the price is rather high for an item where the design costs have (presumably) been amortized many times over. That makes the value proposition (the "worth") a tricky decision.

If you are an industrial or commercial electrician who needs an industry standard tool, then maybe it is worth it.

If you work with electronics on the bench in an R&D or hobby context then probably there are much better choices than the 87V for your needs.
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Online rsjsouza

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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3038 on: December 11, 2018, 12:17:32 am »
joeqsmith
Please what was the verdict on your new Fluke 87V ? If I understand right it passed the high voltage test according to CAT rating but there was some wear on the rotary switch?
Is Fluke 87V worth buying when compared to Hioki and Keysight??

Let's ignore the CAT rating part of your question as I really have no way of evaluating any meter's safety rating.   I ran a few of these.  The new one (SN 490xxxxx) survived all the way up to 10KV, 2 ohm source, 50us FWHH.  It was finally damaged at 12KV.   That's a pretty big hit and only a few meters have survived to this level.   At one time I ran a very old one (SN 105xxxxx) which was damaged at 1.5KV.    I've ran a fair number of Flukes and this one stuck out like a sore thumb.  I had rebuilt it and decided to have a closer look into why it failed at such a low voltage to the extent of making a model of the front end.  I really could not come up with any reason why it was damaged.  In the end I reran this meter and using my smaller transient generator, the meter survived to it's maximum setting which is just under 6KV with a 100us FWHH.  IMO, you make it to this level, you have a pretty robust meter.   

As for the switch, yes I cycle tested one.   50,000 full cycles, from one dead stop, to the other and back being one cycle.  The same as I have every other meter I have looked at.  Non stop.  No cleaning the contacts during the test.   The meter was grinding really bad and when the test was finished, the pads appear to have chatter marks (if you are a machinist).  This seems to be the source of the grinding.   

The Fluke 17B+ is still king of the cycle testing.  Both of these meters were reassembled after inspection without any cleaning.  At some point I plan to do something with them.  Maybe use them as a banchmark for other meters. 

I only ran that one Keysight and HIOKI meter.   The Keysight was a big let down.  They appeared to have used a glass filled plastic for the detent spring for the switch.  All four prongs cracked early on in the cycle testing.   The meter, even with it's GDTs did not prove to be very robust.  I do like my old HP bench meters but lets just say I am not itching to get another Keysight meter.   Keep in mind, a different model could do very well.  I have no idea. 

HIOKI, well  let's just say I have some bias there.  I use some HIOKI equipment for work.  If I am working in CAT III, that is what I am using.  That meter is a bit on the pricey side but has more than paid for itself.     For my tests, I bought something lower end.  More like Fluke's 115. 
It didn't let me down.  At 10KV the meter started to arc around the plastic insert but had no electrical damage.  I added a bit of plastic to extend it a bit further through the slot and tool the meter to 14KV!  It was rock solid.   

Again to be clear because you mention the CAT ratings, these are NOT the waveforms used for the IEC surge test.  Those tests are conducted using a combo generator.  In other words they have two waveforms, current and voltage.   Because my goal has never been to look at safety, I was not concerned with the current waveform.  I used the voltage waveform as the base for my test sort of but limit the energy to about 20 Joules.  Hardly enough to do any damage at all.  I just want enough to cause a meter to fail but not come apart.  So you will NEVER see the explosions with my setup like you could with an actual arc flash event.   

I don't make recommendations.  Everyone will have different needs for their tools.  I can tell you that personally for my hobby use, of all the Flukes I have, I use that 97 scope meter and the 189s from time to time.  My handheld meter of choice is still the Brymen BM869s.  My second choice is the Fluke 189.  It's old but I like it.   If UNI-T would get off their butts and make a better version of the UT181A, I would be all over it.  It's a nice replica of the Fluke 289 with some improvements.   Then there is that Gossen Ultra.  So much potential destroyed by marketing and sales.  It does seem to have a lot of hype.  I use both of these meters from time to time but they have both been modified to better fit my needs.       

If you look in my trailer, you would still find my beat up old Mastech meter on it's last legs.  I plan to replace it with the BM319s.       
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3039 on: December 16, 2018, 10:43:24 pm »
Dead camera batteries have prolonged the life of another meter. 

The choice of meters should provide a clue.  Looks about the size of a popular meter..... 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 01:45:31 am by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3040 on: December 17, 2018, 12:31:57 am »
The disposal of the meters and the types reminds this video:


 
Maybe the 121GW but all meters in the pack have bargraph so it could be the hioki DT4252 has well.  :-DMM

[Edit] Could be a Surpeer AV4???
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 12:38:09 am by malagas_on_fire »
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3041 on: December 17, 2018, 01:57:23 am »
Those are some fairly low end meters in that video except for one.  Some may say that in the real world, things like this don't matter.  I have a much different opinion about such things. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3042 on: December 17, 2018, 02:49:16 am »
Dead camera batteries have prolonged the life of another meter. 

The choice of meters should provide a clue.  Looks about the size of a popular meter.....
121GW with the latest mods ?  :popcorn:
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Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3043 on: December 17, 2018, 10:49:50 am »
Those are some fairly low end meters in that video except for one.  Some may say that in the real world, things like this don't matter.  I have a much different opinion about such things.

Well it depends the field were it is going to be applied , at home , industrial harsh enviroment or heavy use on electrical instalations.

So the video about magnetic sensibility doesn't quite well matches the photo.. but it was a tryout video for a clue of course :P So that could leave to the 121GW as the meter in the bag , being the one that is not low end and it's not the cem / extech .


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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3044 on: December 17, 2018, 01:25:16 pm »
For me, having a meter this sensitive to a magnetic field would be a problem.  With my hobby it would be less of a problem.  I would more apt to spend some time understanding the problem and trying to come up with a fix.  At work my solution would be "lesson learned", "never again" and chuck it.  In the field I would never risk anything other than name brand equipment.  The equipment has to work without question.  When I brought in that first HIOKI for a trial, I asked the sales people if I could test it (for real).  They agreed and I ran several potentially destructive tests on it.  Some with their sales present.   Not the little waveforms I play with at home to benchmark the handhelds.   We bought two of them as a result.  The one is now over 10 years old. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline stj

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3045 on: December 17, 2018, 02:06:10 pm »
magnetic resistance is important IMO,
you cant trust a meter if you cant use it near a transformer or other large Q coil.
 

Online malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3046 on: December 17, 2018, 02:25:47 pm »
Sensitive multimeter than it could be the 121GW the one on the bag, Hioki then may be out of the bag, due to the testimonial of survival. It's sad that the meters  Gossen Metrawatt Metrahit and 121GW showed that sensibility at first try and  had the potential to be great meters. Mayble a revision / recall would do the job.

 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3047 on: December 17, 2018, 06:47:14 pm »
Dead camera batteries have prolonged the life of another meter. 
This tells me it survived the spark and (perhaps) the "lower" (2kV, 4kV) voltages. Better than a throwaway.

The choice of meters should provide a clue.  Looks about the size of a popular meter.....
This gives a lot of room for speculation, given you are not saying anything about the actual popularity of the meter (only about its size) - it could be a 121GW, a Surpeer AV4 or even a more obscure brand such as... The one we talked about before.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3048 on: December 18, 2018, 03:54:24 am »
The meter is blue if that helps and it is still in fully working order.  It's also far from the worse meter I have ever looked at.   That should narrow things down a bit.  :-DD
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3049 on: December 18, 2018, 12:16:43 pm »
Ahn... I see someone has been taking advantage of a fire sale from a certain popular internet sensation... 

Well, that or a Tektronix TX3... Oh, wait... that wouldn't fit on the photo...  :-DD
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 


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