Poll

Are you interested in seeing more handheld meters tested?

This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
3 (6.4%)
 Yes, I would like to more meters tested.
44 (93.6%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.  (Read 543061 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3125 on: February 18, 2019, 02:43:51 pm »
i know there was a vid by "voltlog" testing meter fuses from another company that used test currents and timed the speed it tripped.

There have been some here, too:


 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3126 on: February 18, 2019, 02:45:01 pm »
It appears it came with the the Keysight meter.

What do you mean by "appears"? Did you personally unbox a new/sealed Keysight meter and remove that fuse from it?

 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3127 on: February 18, 2019, 03:08:37 pm »
It appears it came with the the Keysight meter.

What do you mean by "appears"? Did you personally unbox a new/sealed Keysight meter and remove that fuse from it?
I bought the Keysight meter from Keysight, brand new.  Yes I unboxed it and proceeded to test it to failure.  Very few meters I have looked at came with SIBA branded fuses.  Most that did, used the small body style.   The Keysight meter I bought did have a 10A large body and I had pulled the fuses when I scrapped the meter.  The pulled fuses get tossed into a bag.  There is only one 10A SIBA fuse in the bag.   But, I've ran many meters over the last couple of years and it's possible there was some other meter that came with SIBA branded fuses that I scrapped.   So I use the word appears because there is a chance that it came from something else.  I'm not sure what I would have done with the fuse from the Keysight though.   

i dont think breaking them will tell you much, even if they are fake they can still be sand-filled.

i know there was a vid by "voltlog" testing meter fuses from another company that used test currents and timed the speed it tripped.
If you take the time to watch those videos you linked and read the comments, you will find he based those tests off of mine.  He had some problems with the first setup and you will see where I posted some details to try and help him sort it out.   

Again, if anyone has a known SIBA 10A, and would like to do some sort of comparison, feel free to ask.  I doubt we would get any support from SIBA on this matter.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3128 on: February 18, 2019, 03:31:32 pm »
No comment on the third one I posted?

I'm not sure about that one. On the one hand I don't see why SIBA would have two types of markings but on the other I know that when you make a comment like that it's a trap.

There's a distinct lack of pictures of fuses on SIBA's web site to compare anything with.  :-//

:-DD :-DD   

I really don't have a lot of information on counterfeit fuses.  I am not aware of a SIBA distributor here so I would need to lean on people who have access to genuine components to compare them with.   I don't have any data on SIBAs printing process.  It's possible it could be a metric we could use to determine if they are counterfeit but we would need an SIBA expert to help out with that.

Pulling them apart may provide some indication but then again, it's possible they have multiple factories and may have changed the design over the years.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3129 on: February 18, 2019, 05:02:47 pm »
Here are two HRC 400mA  fuses suitable for the BM235. The one on the left was purchase online  and the right it is the stock that it came. Lettering may be different but looking with eye position is the same if viewed from right to left endcap.

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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3130 on: February 18, 2019, 05:27:06 pm »
It appears it came with the the Keysight meter.

What do you mean by "appears"? Did you personally unbox a new/sealed Keysight meter and remove that fuse from it?
I bought the Keysight meter from Keysight, brand new.  Yes I unboxed it and proceeded to test it to failure.  Very few meters I have looked at came with SIBA branded fuses.  Most that did, used the small body style.   The Keysight meter I bought did have a 10A large body and I had pulled the fuses when I scrapped the meter.  The pulled fuses get tossed into a bag.  There is only one 10A SIBA fuse in the bag.   But, I've ran many meters over the last couple of years and it's possible there was some other meter that came with SIBA branded fuses that I scrapped.   So I use the word appears because there is a chance that it came from something else.  I'm not sure what I would have done with the fuse from the Keysight though.   

I had made a series of videos where I modified a UT61E.  One of the things I had done was to replace the small fuse with the larger one using this SIBA fuse.  However, later changed out the shunt to allow using the meter at 20A and replaced the 10A fuse and back into the bag it went.   I can't seem to find any other videos showing the 10A fuse and am fairly confident of it's history.   

https://youtu.be/d6LTsaOqk30?list=PLZSS2ajxhiQDrk4o1Y45auwK7LomjnNBU&t=274
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3131 on: February 18, 2019, 06:43:34 pm »
It appears it came with the the Keysight meter.

What do you mean by "appears"? Did you personally unbox a new/sealed Keysight meter and remove that fuse from it?
I bought the Keysight meter from Keysight, brand new.  Yes I unboxed it and proceeded to test it to failure.  Very few meters I have looked at came with SIBA branded fuses.  Most that did, used the small body style.   The Keysight meter I bought did have a 10A large body and I had pulled the fuses when I scrapped the meter.  The pulled fuses get tossed into a bag.  There is only one 10A SIBA fuse in the bag.   But, I've ran many meters over the last couple of years and it's possible there was some other meter that came with SIBA branded fuses that I scrapped.   So I use the word appears because there is a chance that it came from something else.  I'm not sure what I would have done with the fuse from the Keysight though.   

I had made a series of videos where I modified a UT61E.  One of the things I had done was to replace the small fuse with the larger one using this SIBA fuse.  However, later changed out the shunt to allow using the meter at 20A and replaced the 10A fuse and back into the bag it went.   I can't seem to find any other videos showing the 10A fuse and am fairly confident of it's history.   

https://youtu.be/d6LTsaOqk30?list=PLZSS2ajxhiQDrk4o1Y45auwK7LomjnNBU&t=274

Looking at the pictures I have taken over the years, the Gossen and CEM meters used the large SIBA 10A fuse.  However the Keysight meter does NOT!!!!   :-DD   It's a good thing I take pictures.  I forgot that meter does not even have current.   :-DD   I may need to retire from meter testing.

I still have these meters and could take high resolution pictures of each fuse if you like.    You would expect a Gossen meter would have a genuine SIBA fuse.  See attached.

So,  now that we know the fuse in question did not come from Keysight, where did this fuse come from?  I think there are two possible answers.  I had ran another CEM at one time and I think there was a Klein meter that may have had a large fuse as well.  I did not take pictures of these meters and would need to see if the videos show anything.

The ones I had purchased that I suspected were counterfeit were clearly marked different than the ones supplied with the meters.  They also behaved different when I compared the two.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3132 on: February 18, 2019, 06:48:53 pm »
No comment on the third one I posted?

I'm not sure about that one. On the one hand I don't see why SIBA would have two types of markings but on the other I know that when you make a comment like that it's a trap.

There's a distinct lack of pictures of fuses on SIBA's web site to compare anything with.  :-//

I find Siba USA very responsive to any questions.
It takes a while to get to the particular product manager and sometimes ends up bouncing around Germany.
They will micro-section to find any fakes or other issues. I guess it's something they do all the time, the only way to really check a fuse inside.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3133 on: February 18, 2019, 07:03:40 pm »
Here are the original SIBA HRC 10kA fuses that came with my U1273A purchased new.

The printing is radically different between them.

The metallic ends are scrapped and scuffed both from factory and from my attempts to remove them from the meter (they are fit incredibly tight).

And sorry, I will not destroy them to see if they are fake.  ;D
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3134 on: February 18, 2019, 07:13:32 pm »
Here are the original SIBA HRC 10kA fuses that came with my U1273A purchased new.

The printing is radically different between them.


No kidding.

Food for thought...
 

Offline stj

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3135 on: February 18, 2019, 09:14:24 pm »
rolled on with a stamp, maybe it's more reliable than ink-jets.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3136 on: February 18, 2019, 09:30:15 pm »
At home I will check the Fluke ones I got many years ago (11A and 440/1000). I wonder if their printing is equally uneven.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3137 on: February 18, 2019, 09:57:36 pm »
And here are the fuses for the UT 139A , purchased on a store, still packed ... not much difference from the 400mA on the markings


Edit: Ooppss time delay fused... crap...
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 10:00:53 pm by malagas_on_fire »
If one can make knowledge flow than it will go from negative to positve , for real
 
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Offline stj

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3138 on: February 19, 2019, 02:54:26 am »
At home I will check the Fluke ones I got many years ago (11A and 440/1000). I wonder if their printing is equally uneven.

dont Fluke use LittleFuse? i think LittleFuse use printed labels stuck to the fuse.
 

Online HKJ

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3139 on: February 19, 2019, 07:25:51 am »
dont Fluke use LittleFuse? i think LittleFuse use printed labels stuck to the fuse.

On the two I have reviewed it is printed labels on the fuse:
289:

17B:


Both from Bussmann

 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3140 on: February 19, 2019, 11:06:26 am »
At home I will check the Fluke ones I got many years ago (11A and 440/1000). I wonder if their printing is equally uneven.

dont Fluke use LittleFuse? i think LittleFuse use printed labels stuck to the fuse.
Looking at photos of the new ones I have looked at, the larger style fuse appears to be Mexican made Bussman's with a printed label and woven tube.  Some of the very old Flukes I've looked at had USA made Cooper Bussman Limitron's in them.  These also have a printed label and woven tube.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3141 on: February 19, 2019, 11:46:18 am »
At home I will check the Fluke ones I got many years ago (11A and 440/1000). I wonder if their printing is equally uneven.

dont Fluke use LittleFuse? i think LittleFuse use printed labels stuck to the fuse.
Looking at photos of the new ones I have looked at, the larger style fuse appears to be Mexican made Bussman's with a printed label and woven tube.  Some of the very old Flukes I've looked at had USA made Cooper Bussman Limitron's in them.  These also have a printed label and woven tube.
Yes, that is the 44/100 I have here (the 11A is gone)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 11:48:04 am by rsjsouza »
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3142 on: February 20, 2019, 01:02:19 am »
One thing I never understood is how they get away with putting a fuse only rated for 10KA in a CAT III and up meter?   I don't know of many fast blow fuses besides these from SIBA that are rated to 30KA.   

For me personally, it's not a big deal as the HIOKI meter I use in this environment does not use fuses. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline stj

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3143 on: February 20, 2019, 01:28:49 am »
so you have the one with the external current clamp?
i do like that feature.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3144 on: February 20, 2019, 01:56:10 am »
The one I use is like that, yes but clamps.  I've shown a picture of it here somewhere.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online IanB

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3145 on: February 20, 2019, 02:03:17 am »
One thing I never understood is how they get away with putting a fuse only rated for 10KA in a CAT III and up meter?   I don't know of many fast blow fuses besides these from SIBA that are rated to 30KA. 

That would be a robustness test which would be interesting to see. Basically, what happens if you take a meter on the 10 A current range and place the probes across the bus bars in the service panel of a typical house before the circuit breakers? (Academically of course, not suggesting to do it, unless someone has already put it up on YouTube...). Also, curious what would happen if this blew the supply company's service fuse? What would they charge to come out and fix it? And would they ask how it got blown? So many questions. Also, how long would the poles have to be to keep the operator at a safe distance from the meter?
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3146 on: February 20, 2019, 02:30:42 am »
Photonicinduction had made some pretty good videos on the high break current fuses using that huge cap he has.  It keeps the test off the lines and it's much harder to break the DC.     

All the CAT III rated meters I have looked at should be safe, right across the bus bars of a home, right??   Maybe have the head of marketing and a top manager from each company hold the meters while the test is performed with no PPE.   :-DD   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3147 on: February 20, 2019, 03:00:10 pm »
I was going to say that there's a video of a guy at fluke connecting a meter to 660V and twisting the selector dial back and forth, but AFAICT it's a meter with no current ranges:




 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3148 on: February 20, 2019, 05:47:16 pm »
I was going to say that there's a video of a guy at fluke connecting a meter to 660V and twisting the selector dial back and forth, but AFAICT it's a meter with no current ranges:

 :-DD :-DD

I watched that AEV (AVE?) video where he looks at the non-contact Fluke fork and rants about how bad it is for an hour while trying to use a current monitor with it.  Lots of drama and just stupid.  Then I see him post about a cheap meter and compares it with a Fluke.  No big deal but he is talking about how safe the Fluke is, all the while with some fuse that he pulled from the local hardware store stuck in it.  If you are going to promote safety, seems like you would at least use a fuse rated for the AC/DC voltages and proper break currents....  |O 

I make mistakes in pretty much every video I put out but IMO these go beyond a simple mistake. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3149 on: February 20, 2019, 07:06:50 pm »
Yes, AvE (Arduino vs. Evil).
I TEA.
 


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