Handheld meter robustness testing

[joeqsmith]

... an Uni-T meter would be less robust than a Fluke/Brymen/Klein, but without testing no one can really know.

From my spreadsheet,  I looked at a Klein MM2000 which was damaged with a 2kV transient .  I also looked at an MM500 which was damaged at 5kV (much shorter FWHH).    The MM500 was never exposed to any ESD transients.   

The second UNI-T UT139C I tested where I crept up on it also failed at 5kV with the 100us FWHH but it survived the ESD tests. 

From an electrical robustness standpoint,  I wouldn't place Klein in the same class as Fluke and Brymen.   Maybe Klein rebrands some better products that I have not looked at.  Still we have looked at Fluke and Brymen's low end products and the results speak for themselves. 

**
Which Klein product do you feel competes?  Maybe we can have a look at that.   

[rsjsouza]

... an Uni-T meter would be less robust than a Fluke/Brymen/Klein, but without testing no one can really know.

From my spreadsheet,  I looked at a Klein MM2000 which was damaged with a 2kV transient .  I also looked at an MM500 which was damaged at 5kV (much shorter FWHH).    The MM500 was never exposed to any ESD transients.   

The second UNI-T UT139C I tested where I crept up on it also failed at 5kV with the 100us FWHH but it survived the ESD tests. 

From an electrical robustness standpoint,  I wouldn't place Klein in the same class as Fluke and Brymen.   Maybe Klein rebrands some better products that I have not looked at.  Still we have looked at Fluke and Brymen's low end products and the results speak for themselves. 

**
Which Klein product do you feel competes?  Maybe we can have a look at that.

Thanks for the highlights. I haven't heard good things about older Klein DMMs - the MM2000 is an older design, although the MM500 seems somewhat newer, albeit both are discontinued.

I heard good things about the newer line, especially the MM600 (averaging) and MM700 (TRMS) - obviously that, not having the same testset as yours nor the meters themselves, I can only speculate.

[joeqsmith]

... I can only speculate.

   It funny how we see things so differently.   I look at the following ad and notice the same super cheap leads and thermocouple  I've found with so many low end meters our of China that I have sent to the recycle bin.   I think, this meter has no chance of surviving to the same levels as the Flukes or the Brymens I have looked at.  It would be lucky to survive ESE and maybe the low voltage transient generator.    As you said earlier,

... but without testing no one can really know.

 
 
https://www.amazon.com/Multimeter-Auto-Ranging-Klein-Tools-MM700/dp/B018CMKWSC/ref=sr_1_5?crid=1ZO9XQWDLIVVM&keywords=MM700&qid=1642989106&sprefix=mm700+%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-5

[Fungus]

From an electrical robustness standpoint,  I wouldn't place Klein in the same class as Fluke and Brymen.

Maybe more interesting to look at something like these:

https://www.amprobe.com/product-category/multimeters/industrial-multimeters/

Looking at the claims... they ought to be the most robust meters out there.   

[joeqsmith]

From an electrical robustness standpoint,  I wouldn't place Klein in the same class as Fluke and Brymen.

Maybe more interesting to look at something like these:

https://www.amprobe.com/product-category/multimeters/industrial-multimeters/

Looking at the claims... they ought to be the most robust meters out there.   

They state:

AC Volts (45 Hz to 2 kHz) transient protection:    12 kV impulse (1.2 µS/50 µS) based on EN 61010-1:2001 impulse requirement for at CAT IV 1000 V product. This product should not be used in installations where transients exceed 12 kV.

   but I don't just test the ACV mode.    I used an Amprobe to set the cutoff of what I consider a robust meter.  You may remember I ran a higher end Amprobe and it did very poorly.   

If we wanted to find meters that were as robust as what I have seen with Fluke and Brymen,  I would look at Gossen and Hioki.  Both of these meters held up very well against my transient testing.   

[Fungus]

They state:

AC Volts (45 Hz to 2 kHz) transient protection:    12 kV impulse (1.2 µS/50 µS) based on EN 61010-1:2001 impulse requirement for at CAT IV 1000 V product. This product should not be used in installations where transients exceed 12 kV.

   but I don't just test the ACV mode.    I used an Amprobe to set the cutoff of what I consider a robust meter.  You may remember I ran a higher end Amprobe and it did very poorly.   

Amprobe are big rebadgers. The meter you tested could be made by a completely different company than their "heavy duty" meters.

There's some pics with the back off here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/any-experience-with-an-amprobe-hd160c/msg170810/#msg170810

Check out the fuse:

If we wanted to find meters that were as robust as what I have seen with Fluke and Brymen,  I would look at Gossen and Hioki.  Both of these meters held up very well against my transient testing.   

Sure, I'd like to see a Hioki DT4282 go under the hammer. Not only for robustness but to see how well it works ingeneral.

[joeqsmith]

The link you provided was from 2012 and

It's a wavetek original design ....

.   Wavetek hasn't been around for a long time.  I wonder how old this meter is.  Early 90s? 

I watched the video of the two guys dropping and and driving over it.   No transient tests....

Sure, I'd like to see a Hioki DT4282 go under the hammer. Not only for robustness but to see how well it works ingeneral.

That channel is getting close to 20k subscribers.  Like when it hit 2k, it seems like we should have a look at something special if it ever makes it up that high.   Last time we had a lot of fun with a high end Gossen.   

I listed it on the poll last time.  Not at all apposed to running it. 

[rsjsouza]

... I can only speculate.

   It funny how we see things so differently.   I look at the following ad and notice the same super cheap leads and thermocouple  I've found with so many low end meters our of China that I have sent to the recycle bin.   I think, this meter has no chance of surviving to the same levels as the Flukes or the Brymens I have looked at.  It would be lucky to survive ESE and maybe the low voltage transient generator.    As you said earlier,

... but without testing no one can really know.

 

Indeed we see it differently. The thermocouple is visually similar to the Amprobe AM530 I had, the Agilent/Keysight U123x/U127x and a few others; the probes might be the cheaper models indeed, but the manufacturer sells replacements, so they are not necessarily a totally no-brand quality-uncontrolled product. The meter itself is quite well put together mechanically speaking (I had a MM700 once in my hands), and the manual is thorough enough with relevant specifications (RH%, Altitude, etc.) including drop test and independent verification.

Yes, we both agree that paper accepts anything and the extents of the agency testing can potentially leave lots of gaps but Klein is probably covering their asses on the "safety" part of it.

They state:

AC Volts (45 Hz to 2 kHz) transient protection:    12 kV impulse (1.2 µS/50 µS) based on EN 61010-1:2001 impulse requirement for at CAT IV 1000 V product. This product should not be used in installations where transients exceed 12 kV.

   but I don't just test the ACV mode.    I used an Amprobe to set the cutoff of what I consider a robust meter.  You may remember I ran a higher end Amprobe and it did very poorly.   

And here is where the difference between robustness and safety relies. The last sentence is covered by the EN61010 but does not mean the meter will survive.

If we wanted to find meters that were as robust as what I have seen with Fluke and Brymen,  I would look at Gossen and Hioki.  Both of these meters held up very well against my transient testing.   

Sure, I'd like to see a Hioki DT4282 go under the hammer. Not only for robustness but to see how well it works ingeneral.

Sanwa as well... The PC7000 is super nice and probably terribly expensive...

[joeqsmith]

The last sentence is covered by the EN61010 but does not mean the meter will survive.

We covered this a few times here.  I've gone so far as to site various sections from the standards and contacting a few of the manufactures.   As I have stated, I could not get a consensus.   If you know (know meaning with 100% certainly) what 61010 means, your are way ahead of me. 

[rsjsouza]

The last sentence is covered by the EN61010 but does not mean the meter will survive.

We covered this a few times here.  I've gone so far as to site various sections from the standards and contacting a few of the manufactures.   As I have stated, I could not get a consensus.   If you know (know meaning with 100% certainly) what 61010 means, your are way ahead of me.

Indeed we both agree that it is wide open for interpretation - if it was the most stringent requirement (i.e., the meter survives) we would probably know by now. As I also said before, this perhaps is deliberate to cater to lower cost manufacturers - after all, these standards are frequently decided and agreed on committees comprised of representatives of various manufacturers.

[joeqsmith]

I've never had enough interest in the subject to contact the agencies.  Have you?   I doubt these agencies follow the EEVBLOG so I am not sure how we could know unless someone were to contact them.   Otherwise, it's just a rinse and repeat cycle.  We may even get a consensus on the forums of what we believe, but that's not data.   As I stated, I went so far as to contact the manufactures and read the standards.  I've provided feedback from both.   If you have done anything further, I would like to hear your findings.   

[Fungus]

I think the only requirement is "fail safely". If the meter was required to survive then it would say so in the standard.

This leaves the final decision in the hands of the manufacturers. If a manufacturer wants to build a reputation for "bomb proof" then they try to make their meters survive transients (and charge accordingly). If they don't want that reputation, then... whatever.

[joeqsmith]

I think the only requirement is "fail safely". If the meter was required to survive then it would say so in the standard.

This leaves the final decision in the hands of the manufacturers. If a manufacturer wants to build a reputation for "bomb proof" then they try to make their meters survive transients (and charge accordingly). If they don't want that reputation, then... whatever.

Exactly my point. Rinse and repeat is all. No data.

[joeqsmith]

To celebrate reaching 20k subscribers, the following list of handheld meters will be considered. 

Brand model, requested by, link to manual
 
Hioki DT4282, Fungus,  https://www.hioki.com/euro-en/products/testers/dmm-4/id_5803
Sanwa PC7000,  rsjsouza,  https://overseas.sanwa-meter.co.jp/download/index.html
AEMC MTX  3293B, Bogdan Oliver,  https://www.aemc.com/userfiles/files/resources/usermanuals/Multimeters/MTX3292B-3293B_EN.pdf
Gossen Metrawatt  Metrahit Prime M248A, joeqsmith  (was it ever improved as someone suggested or was that a bunch of BS?)
Brymen BM857S , Fungus, https://brymen.eu/wp-content/uploads/biall/102020/102020.KARTA_EN..2015-07-08.1.pdf
Testo 760-3 , Remco Van Triest,
UNI-T UT61E+,  jspencerg,  New unit to attempt to repeat the transient tests without any modifications

[GuidoK]

To celebrate reaching 20k subscribers, the following list of handheld meters will be considered. 

Brand model, requested by, link to manual
 
AEMC MTX  3293B, Bogdan Oliver,  https://www.aemc.com/userfiles/files/resources/usermanuals/Multimeters/MTX3292B-3293B_EN.pdf

That Metrix MTX3293B is also available under the Chauvin Arnoux brand, Chauvin Arnoux CA5293-bt
https://catalog.chauvin-arnoux.com/fr_en/c-a-5293.html
But it's the same meter (available with and without bluetooth)

I'd love to see that meter get tested as it's not a very common brand outside France and it's terratories.
High count expensive premium logging/graphing multimeter. Will it be as buggy as the Gossen metrawatt ultra, or as easy to kill with the grill starter as the UT181a, or as slow with displaying logging graphs as the Fluke 289? 
Or is it that one hidden gem as the bm869s turned out to be? 

That sanwa pc7000 looks feature and specwise very much like the BM896s (save the dual temp measurement), however significantly more expensive.
It's usb interface is also very similar. I think with the Ts Digital Multi Meter Viewer software (free generic dmm view software), there even was a remark about this in an older version using this setting, so I wonder if Sanwa makes this meter themselves or if it's partially a brymen? (or a joint venture or so?)

I love your video's/tests.
For me it's not just the electrical robustness testing, the quirks you find in the meters are the ones that I find most interesting. That is something other reviewers usually don't find. Maybe because they're sponsored, or maybe it requires that you have to spend real time with the meter going through everything and keep being alert. I think you have a real talent for that.

[2N3055]

1+ for Metrix MTX3293B...

[joeqsmith]

I've added the Gossen just out of my own curiosity if they actually did do anything besides rename from Ultra to Prime. 

[GuidoK]

I've added the Gossen just out of my own curiosity if they actually did do anything besides rename from Ultra to Prime.

You're willing to buy another ~$1000 meter just to see if they added some shielding? 
That's some dedication 

The software and the usb interface (if you dont have the BT version) are also ridiculously expensive. (although fluke software is also pretty expensive)

[mqsaharan]

To celebrate reaching 20k subscribers, the following list of handheld meters will be considered. 

Brand model, requested by, link to manual
 
Hioki DT4282, Fungus,  https://www.hioki.com/euro-en/products/testers/dmm-4/id_5803
Sanwa PC7000,  rsjsouza,  https://overseas.sanwa-meter.co.jp/download/index.html
AEMC MTX  3293B, Bogdan Oliver,  https://www.aemc.com/userfiles/files/resources/usermanuals/Multimeters/MTX3292B-3293B_EN.pdf

I am sorry, I couldn't resist. And I am also sorry in advance if my post is going to be wrongly interpreted.

Hioki DT4282:
Its younger brother gave great performance in your tests. I doubt it will be any different. Some of its quirks have already mentioned by some members here.

Sanwa PC7000:
After looking at its teardown, I am sure it is manufactured by Brymen since it is using Brymen branded chips. Even though these are lower specs models, I doubt they'll behave badly. If they do, it will be a slap in Brymen's face. MJLorton did a review and a teardown of this meter.

AEMC MTX 3293B:
Weirdly shaped but a very nice battery powered, handheld form factor benchtop multimeter, very capable, has math functions that are not normally found on handheld meters.
If my memory is serving me right, Joe, it has event counting function that you were looking for, a few years back.
Other than that, even though it is the next iteration, B model, its specs are almost the same. In a glance, the only difference I could spot is that the number of measurement records has been increased to 30,000 measurements as well as the records can be better managed in different files.
If they haven't installed any shield inside this B model as well, you better buy that sheet metal you used to shield Gossen Ultra before ordering this meter.
Its only my guess that it is using the same Hycon front end as 121GW. Perhaps someone who owns this or the previous non B model can confirm it.
As per their manual:
Has much more detailed specs than most meters. The only rival here is Gossen.
IP67 rated.
Has math functions.
Has 200kHz ACV bandwidth.
Has comparatively low burden voltage for current measurement.
Can measure voltage and current simultaneously.
I know nothing about its PC software capabilities. Must be great.
Has ability to use J, Pt100/Pt1000 in addition to K type thermocouple.

Operating temperature range is 0 to 40 degree C.
Battery life specified for 6V 2400mAh batteries is approximately 80 hours.
Specifications are guaranteed only after 30 minutes warm up.
The recovery time for the PTC thermistor is quoted as 10 minutes.
Does not have conductance function.
Bar graph update rate is still 5 times/sec, same as the display.
Capacitance measurement is slow in 1mF and 10mF ranges. Also, in capacitance function, resolution drops down to 1000 counts??? Am I reading it right?
Temperature coefficient is worse in some functions than Fluke 189. I don't know if anybody has practically checked the Fluke claimed temperature coefficient of 189 or other meters.

In the end, its your money, man. My suggestion is to get some other more popular meter, test it to death, show others how to improve it (like you did with UT61E) and soon you'll be celebrating 50k subscribers. I thought you don't care how many subscribers you get.
Or how about UT60BT: Its cheap, 9999 count, has better build than Anang 9999 count meters, has bluetooth. And hopefully, will die with the first hit of the grill starter just to keep its reputation that it is made by Uni Trend. But it will be way less burden on your pocket.

For me it's not just the electrical robustness testing, the quirks you find in the meters are the ones that I find most interesting. That is something other reviewers usually don't find. Maybe because they're sponsored, or maybe it requires that you have to spend real time with the meter going through everything and keep being alert. I think you have a real talent for that.

Well said. Me too.

[Fungus]

Hioki DT4282:
Its younger brother gave great performance in your tests. I doubt it will be any different.

It's not just about robustness, it's also about finding quirks and checking the performance at the edges.

Clarification: If I were to ever drop that much money on a meter then I'd like to know all that other stuff. I'd want it to be the best all-round meter possible, eg. does it handle the edge cases as well as a Fluke 289?

[joeqsmith]

I just want to say I appreciate the feedback. 

You're willing to buy another ~$1000 meter just to see if they added some shielding? 

Indeed.  I'm surprised anyone would even question my insanity at this point!   I waited a few years for the 121GW to mature before reviewing it.   Seems we have givin Gossen more than enough time. 


I doubt I will ever use the channel to

.... show others how to improve it ....

.  As an adult it seems irresponsible, not to mention potential liability.  That is unless you are referring to my offering feedback to the manufactures to improve their products.  There's a big difference when it comes to working with a group of professionals to solve problems.       

I thought you don't care how many subscribers you get.

  I don't or I would do things much differently.  Maybe just create some actual content once in a while.  Still it seems fitting to celebrate that there are so many of you crazy people out there.   

[rsjsouza]

I've never had enough interest in the subject to contact the agencies.  Have you?   I doubt these agencies follow the EEVBLOG so I am not sure how we could know unless someone were to contact them.   Otherwise, it's just a rinse and repeat cycle.  We may even get a consensus on the forums of what we believe, but that's not data.   As I stated, I went so far as to contact the manufactures and read the standards.  I've provided feedback from both.   If you have done anything further, I would like to hear your findings.

Unfortunately I don't. I might have access to contacts on the cert agencies again later this year but, since liability about information is a critical part of their business, they tend to keep information quite compartmentalized across testing groups and therefore might not share anything that pertains to other class of products.

Sanwa PC7000:
After looking at its teardown, I am sure it is manufactured by Brymen since it is using Brymen branded chips. Even though these are lower specs models, I doubt they'll behave badly. If they do, it will be a slap in Brymen's face. MJLorton did a review and a teardown of this meter.

Interesting; I wasn't aware of (or perhaps forgot about) the PC7000 teardown - indeed it uses a BTC device inside. The other one I knew was the PC700.

[GuidoK]

If they haven't installed any shield inside this B model as well, you better buy that sheet metal you used to shield Gossen Ultra before ordering this meter.

There is indeed a short teardown topic here on the forum:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/metrix-mtx3293-quick-teardown/

No shielding looks like it in the non b model.
And as it has no rotary dial, a whole row of relays that might be messed about with a magnet... 

That processing chip looks interesting though. BGA by the looks of it.

[joeqsmith]

Some time ago a few others had asked about looking at Benning and Testo.  Dave also showed the company who makes the 121GW had came out with their new top of the line meter.   That may be another option as well.   

[Fungus]

I should probably add the BM857S to the shortlist because that's the one I own. 

(Old-school Brymen goodness)