Poll

Are you interested in seeing more handheld meters tested?

This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
3 (6.4%)
 Yes, I would like to more meters tested.
44 (93.6%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Handheld meter robustness testing  (Read 649089 times)

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Offline joeqsmith

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If you haven't seen it yet, DextersLab2013 posted a video using his new generator.    Looks like it does a nice job on them. 

 :-+ >:D

thats just shy of 1700v, 185uF

it's a bit of a sledgehammer in comparison to your generator Joe, but it's good to show how well the blast protection might work  :-DD

If we call what you have a sledgehammer, I would say mine is a tack hammer.    And what PhotonicInduction has is a pile driver.  :-DD   

I bet the Fluke 101 and 107 would survive on your generator all day long.   Much of the time I monitor the voltage to see what to meter is doing and many of them don't draw much until they get ready to fail.   I would NOT hook your 87V to it!!   That 1.7KV may be enough to push it over the edge.    :-DD 

I look forward to seeing more videos of it doing some meter damage and getting that thing to put out is maximum blast.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline dexters_lab

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If we call what you have a sledgehammer, I would say mine is a tack hammer.    And what PhotonicInduction has is a pile driver.  :-DD   

I bet the Fluke 101 and 107 would survive on your generator all day long.   Much of the time I monitor the voltage to see what to meter is doing and many of them don't draw much until they get ready to fail.   I would NOT hook your 87V to it!!   That 1.7KV may be enough to push it over the edge.    :-DD 

I look forward to seeing more videos of it doing some meter damage and getting that thing to put out is maximum blast.

have both the 101 and 107 plus a couple of other older Mastech jobs

happy to put anything on it, well apart from my own  ;D
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
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http://dexterslab2013.blogspot.co.uk/
 

Offline joeqsmith

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You know you want to try that 101 on it!!   :popcorn:
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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I would like to get somewhere in the maybe a quarter cycle of a home feed.   Say, 220v 200A 60Hz or just to see the effects on these dead meters before I recycle them.     

:-+ >:D

thats just shy of 1700v, 185uF

it's a bit of a sledgehammer in comparison to your generator Joe, but it's good to show how well the blast protection might work  :-DD

Let's assume that is 267J at the connector with no sort of network and you can double that at the connector.   I think this is roughly what I would like to see.

If I target say 1/4 cycle of a 440 line at 200A, that's 366J.   

Because some of the meters do not arc until much higher voltage than what you have,  my plan is to have a second low voltage high energy generator that is triggered from the high voltage transient of the first generator.     Staying with a stored system and keeping the voltages low should keep it very small and somewhat safe.   

I know it is still no where near the energy of what you could see in real life but it may provide some insight as to how these meters would handle a higher energy transient.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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It's a start...

How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Damn that looks promising. I love how when you hit that CEM, you can actually see lights cascading behind the board. A lot longer lived than I expected.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Damn that looks promising. I love how when you hit that CEM, you can actually see lights cascading behind the board. A lot longer lived than I expected.

I felt it was good enough to move forward with it.   It's too bad that all the other modes failed.  Really it was a pretty tough meter compared with most of them.   

All of the parts arrived from Digikey today.  Here it is for it's first tryout with the throttle all the way open. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPXizuSZACs&feature=youtu.be

This things still just a toy.   Imagine what a real arc flash is like.   If a meter comes apart with this little thing, I would guess you have some problems.   

I need to get it into a box and make up some sort of safety glass cover for the meter holder.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Wow, packs quite a punch  :box:  :-+
 

Offline joeqsmith

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If it can explode a light bulb what will it do to 5KY's Circuit-Test DMR-6550?   Watch and find out. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE2tl8NHIgM&feature=youtu.be
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Is it bad that I am actually laughing at this? The power is a HUGE step up.  :box:
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Is it bad that I am actually laughing at this? The power is a HUGE step up.  :box:

Can't blame you for laughing.   It is pretty entertaining to see up close.   

I'm not sure what if anything we can learn from it as the energy is way too low to simulate a real world condition.    Still, it's not something I would recommend the novice try as a starter project.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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I spent some time on the case for the new generator.   1/4" thick plate aluminum with a phenolic back plate.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Sanded out the machine marks and started working on the cover for the case.  Hope to have it finished by the end of the week.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Beautiful start to the case! Those binding posts though, hot damn.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline Vgkid

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Those are some beefy lugs.
Where did you get those rack handles.
If you own any North Hills Electronics gear, message me. L&N Fan
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Beautiful start to the case! Those binding posts though, hot damn.

Thanks.   Glue set, some sanding, stain and first coat of poly is on. 

Those are some beefy lugs.
Where did you get those rack handles.

I don't remember what those handles came off of but would guess it was some old gear I scrapped.   

When I started this project, I was thinking BIG cables with very low inductance.   So far I have only been using some test lead wire and may just go with that.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Finished up the new transient generator today and tried it out on some of 5kys meters.   I had a different knob picked out for it, but seem to have lost it.  So the small black one is there until I find it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fYVaXz8lVk&feature=youtu.be
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Well, she died today.  Wasn't even a fire ball of death.  Actually it wasn't even turned on.   The margins were just too tight on the diodes.   Was running about 80% and suspect the stray inductance caused enough back emf to wipe them out.   Ordered some new parts and will add protection for them.   Shouldn't take much to solve it.   On the up side, the diodes seem to handle the forward currents just fine.   Also the protection for the capacitor bank seems to have worked.   

How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline dexters_lab

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I would like to get somewhere in the maybe a quarter cycle of a home feed.   Say, 220v 200A 60Hz or just to see the effects on these dead meters before I recycle them.     

:-+ >:D

thats just shy of 1700v, 185uF

it's a bit of a sledgehammer in comparison to your generator Joe, but it's good to show how well the blast protection might work  :-DD

Let's assume that is 267J at the connector with no sort of network and you can double that at the connector.   I think this is roughly what I would like to see.

If I target say 1/4 cycle of a 440 line at 200A, that's 366J.   

Because some of the meters do not arc until much higher voltage than what you have,  my plan is to have a second low voltage high energy generator that is triggered from the high voltage transient of the first generator.     Staying with a stored system and keeping the voltages low should keep it very small and somewhat safe.   

I know it is still no where near the energy of what you could see in real life but it may provide some insight as to how these meters would handle a higher energy transient.   

just catching up on your new build Joe, you  really do finish off projects! Your new generators look beautiful, nice work... can we see inside the new higher energy unit, what volts/capacitance do you have in there? :-+

i still have not figured out the point where the magstim fires, a load of 100k ohm and it wont, but 1k does, i can put a coil in parallel with the DUT but then i am wasting energy in the coil. Your approach to use low energy high voltage to trigger the main charge is interesting... much like a xenon flash tube circuit in a way

i am taking the magstim over to a friend tomorrow, see if we can figure out why i am only getting 1700v instead of 2800v on the cap... i am sure we'll get around to making some things expire too, maybe i should try the fluke 101? >:D
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/user/DextersLab2013
http://dexterslab2013.blogspot.co.uk/
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Thanks.   
just catching up on your new build Joe, you  really do finish off projects! Your new generators look beautiful, nice work... can we see inside the new higher energy unit, what volts/capacitance do you have in there? :-+

i still have not figured out the point where the magstim fires, a load of 100k ohm and it wont, but 1k does, i can put a coil in parallel with the DUT but then i am wasting energy in the coil. Your approach to use low energy high voltage to trigger the main charge is interesting... much like a xenon flash tube circuit in a way

i am taking the magstim over to a friend tomorrow, see if we can figure out why i am only getting 1700v instead of 2800v on the cap... i am sure we'll get around to making some things expire too, maybe i should try the fluke 101? >:D
,
Thanks.   Yes, I really "finished this project off" yesterday.    :-DD

There's not much in them both.    The new unit has a power supply, capacitor bank with some protection for it, an output network and a trigger circuit.    I originally thought about making the bank using different voltage/capacitance values  and then having a waveform with multiple breakpoints.   But I already had the generator that could produce several KV, so it was easier to just use the lower voltage caps and design a way to trigger it.   The problem I see is that some of the meters I have tested did not break down even with 6KVish.   If they don't break down, the second generator is not going to cause any damage.

Are you sure that your generator does not fire?  Are you putting a scope across the outputs and looking at them or still using the loop?         

With your generator being designed for one specific purpose, they may not have a network like a typical combo generator would have.   For a combo, they spec an open and short condition for voltage and current.   In the generators I have made, I am keep the open circuit voltage  tamed to something like the IEC waveform.  But for a short, I don't have the energy available (for good reason).   And again, even with the new generator, while I can output a 200V+ volt AC wave while I am injecting the transient, the two are not in sync and the transient is coupled to ground not riding on top of the AC.   And, I limit the AC to typically < 50mA but can only go as high as 500mA (for good reason).    All that to say, in open circuit mode, the majority of the energy is dissipated in the output network.    With a short (or a meter breaking down) some of the energy is dissipated in the output network.   

The following paper may be of interest to you.
http://www.denverpels.org/Downloads/Denver_PELS_20070918_Hesterman_Voltage_Surge_Immunity.pdf
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Increase the margins and added a couple of layers of protection for the diodes.  Ran several tests with it and it seems very robust now.   

Video showing 5ky's UTL meter along with some of the fuses that were used in these meters.    Why a company would put glass in a modern meter, I'm not sure.     

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWKoRxNEsXk&feature=youtu.be
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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5ky's Fluke 107 is ran with the new setup.    Keep in mind it had been damaged during my previous tests.   

How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Cen-Tech 90899 meter with test leads on the new generator. 

How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Nice test with the centech. Unacceptable to have the test less blow out like that

Sent from my LG-ls990 using Tapatalk

The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Agree!  I would not want a live probe flailing around in front of me.     I tossed out most of the probes that came with the meters I first tested.  I think 5ky did the same.  It may have been interesting to pulse test these as well. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 


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