Help needed, helping a beginner friend get set up with basic test equipment.....

[Aldo22]

It is not really the total failure of the switch that is the main problem, it is that sometime you get unreliable measurements due to the switch. I have seen that frequently when using cheap meters, a quick turn of the range switch usually fixes it.

I've heard of this before, but it's never happened to me.
Nobody claims that these cheap meters are as durable as the expensive ones, but for the case at hand they are probably sufficient.

[BeBuLamar]

Hioki, Advantest, Yokogawa, etc are all premium brands with prices to match, unless we find something second hand (which is perfectly fine!)

I don't think Brymen is easy to get in Japan without shipping (I haven't seen it around, but then I haven't been looking for it).. Aliexpress has cheap shipping for cheap brands, but shipping from elsewhere can be pricey.

I which case I think it's a good idea to buy used quality made in Japan meters. Since know meters you can determine for her if the meter is in good condition. I guess the situation in Japan is the same as USA where Brymen doesn't sell in Japan.

[AVGresponding]

Hioki would be my first choice for a handheld DMM.

I'm sure Hioki makes good professional devices, but it really has nothing to do with “entry level”.
The cheapest Hioki that can measure current costs over 200€.
Even Fluke has more to offer in the "entry level" range.

  buy once, cry once, as the saying goes.

No mention of current capability in the OP, but I did specifically say, "to try and find local brands at decent prices", and that "Hioki would be my first choice for a handheld DMM", and not that they would be my only choice.

I would also point out to those arguing about durability wrt hv on the input, that the ability to manage 230VAC in resistance mode in a country that uses 100VAC is less relevant than what happens when someone tries to measure the resistance of a relay coil, while it's being switched on and off, without a snubber network.

[TERRA Operative]

My friend won't be going anywhere close to mains voltages... She will be sticking to logic level and DC voltages to maybe 24V maximum for motors and the like.
So any discussion of 230V (which doesn't exist in Japan anyway) is moot.

She isn't going to pay the price for premium brands, she doesn't even know if she will continue with electronics at this stage or stick with software. So a low cost to dabble is all she wants to spend, as long as she isn't buying complete crap...



I do like the look of the Zoyi ZT-255 meter linked before, I'll check it out a bit and see.

[nctnico]

Do you have a budget in mind?
There is something in almost every price range, it just depends on what you want to spend.
So for $600 you can get something better than for $200, but even that is possible.

I'll check to see if she has a number in mind. For now cheap is good (but not toooo cheap....)

I'll check out the Korad PSU, they look to be about what's needed.. but Fluke might be a little more than the budget allows, maybe.. Will check as above.

When on a budget, I'd get a Korad PSU. Just be sure to buy a fully linear PSU. The noise pushed into the outputs of a switching PSU can obscure measurements and can put a novice on the wrong track while trying to check a circuit.

[BeBuLamar]

I don't know if they would ship to Japan but this power supply seems quite inexpensive
https://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Quick-Charge-Overcurrent-0-30V-0-10A/dp/B0CN989377/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=20WJHQVDBMS8O&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.pXch1yDAJnHAQqMHoyvZID7LdJZz_N1t4EpcvbEiMMn5w8v-KZheZ2p_pRDwTRR7DAogLI9H6XHbeZ1ouOO82e1ebC6y4YPmU5hzfViGu0b3FiK1QrzMnLGeHpDH9GEo0WoKCp_nJfI7JbHaZGunuJysi6vEBwl6nZeiZ8V_jbbnHG-C6qplNU4kzmVaXESU2guXju4KKgYEppsAK0D6lRgNhUKvPyyFLuW_h2CsH5g.1N3FRP1v93Z1z2hSoozPMH54bytq-UAvvZN-1FmnegY&dib_tag=se&keywords=12v%2Bdc%2Bbench%2Bpower%2Bsupply&qid=1746500851&sprefix=12v%2Bdc%2Bbench%2Caps%2C169&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

[Fungus]

So a low cost to dabble is all she wants to spend, as long as she isn't buying complete crap...

It's usually good to say that in the first post. 

I do like the look of the Zoyi ZT-255 meter linked before, I'll check it out a bit and see.

Zoyi are among the best "cheapo" meters. Do they sell them in Akihabara?

The full range is here:

https://zotektools.com/products/

[robert.rozee]

for tinkering with small stuff a couple of ultra-cheap 3.5 digit manual ranging DMMs are great, with the one caveat that the modern ones are so light that they skate around on the desk. it is a pity no one makes a DT830-style meter that is just a tiny bit better:
- all current ranges on their own socket,
- no transistor tester,
- powered by 6x AA cells,
- in a bench meter format.

some other opinions:
- get your friend a half dozen or so wireless breadboards - they cost next to nothing.
- also a couple of packets of jumper leads (crocodile clips at each end), but replace the crimped copper-plated steel wires with soldered decent quality copper wires.
- a couple of USB to TTL serial converters - handy for talking to GPS receiver modules, etc.
- a selection of AA battery holders - a super easy way to power small things and keeping them isolated.


cheers,
rob   :-)

[Aldo22]

I do like the look of the Zoyi ZT-255 meter linked before, I'll check it out a bit and see.

There's simply no good reason not to buy a ZT-225 with the requirements description you have.
It may cost $15 more than a very basic meter. But for the difference you get one that leaves almost nothing to be desired for the Arduino hobbyist.

However, you have to be aware that it is relatively large and heavy. But it won't fall off the table and with 3xAA batteries it runs “forever”.

[TERRA Operative]

Zoyi aren't sold in Akihabara, but shipping is free from the official Zoyi store on Aliexpress, so that's no problems.

The ZT-225 is now on the short list.


I discovered that I have a HP E3611A in my pile of stuff here, which I think is working. That'll sort one PSU out, pending testing, which is good.

[timeandfrequency]

Hello BeBuLamar,

I don't know if they would ship to Japan but this power supply seems quite inexpensive

Yes, these are the new cheapos we see everywhere. Appealing at first sight but it's a SPS.
Outputs probably as much voltage noise as power. Acceptable for makers and other DIY experiencers.
Probably not a good choice to fulfill TERRA Operative's requirement. The HP E3611A he dug out will do it for sure : linear, not to powerful (30 W), repairable, SM available. That's what we want.
It becomes actually difficult to find a new PS having similar features.

This one is a true linear : 4.3 kg  2mVrms (20 Hz - 20 MHz)

[Anthocyanina]

i would recommend the analog discovery 3 + one of those 20$ multimeters, and one of those korad power supplies. (and the power supply would be only if she plans to do higher power and higher voltage than what the AD3's supplies can do, so she might as well skip the power supply at first while working with sensors and LEDs and the usual beginner arduino projects)

the AD3 has a good logic analyser, a good pattern generator, it can decode basically any digital protocol, it has 2 oscilloscope channels, 2 waveform generators, positive and negative low power power supplies up to 5V(positive and negative 5V so you could do up to 10V combining them). the software is great and you can set up the interface for whatever you're working on at the moment: digital logic? bring up the logic analyser and pattern generator only. want to see how the digital signal looks like in the analog domain? add the oscilloscope to the screen and hook it up. doing op amp stuff? bring up the power supplies, wave gen and scope.

the AD3 is plenty for arduino and on its own it's basically a full basic lab the size of your palm. the support digilent offers is great. if you suggest a feature and it's reasonable enough, they'll reply a few days later with a link to download the new waveforms beta with that feature implemented.

it also has a really good resale value in case she decides to not do electronics again, and much easier to store and sell a single small thing than a bunch of separate instruments. 

i have good dedicated benchtop instruments but i still mainly use my AD2 if what i'm working on is within its capabilities

[adam4521]

But the AD, if well featured, is not especially low cost. I think there is something to be said for getting a bench oscilloscope, for the tactile drive and to be able to ‘see’ the circuits easily. When I use my Pico oscilloscope, I use it for its features, not its ergonomics.

The usual recommended oscilloscopes from Siglent and Rigol might look pricey to an uncertain beginner but the investment is secure I think with a resale market that wants these.

At the lower end I think Owon seem to ‘do what they claim’ but the Achilles heel with those low priced machines - even if you don’t need any decoding or fancy trigger features - is short memory depth.

[nightfire]

Ok, so the specs are something like:

- will work at voltages <50V
- mains will not be the main part of work
- work mainly done on breadboard, probably soldering some stuff
- gear should be decent and give reliable values, but nothing fancy/industrial professional grade
- space probably is limited in Japan, so size does matter

Thoughts:
- Enter the stuff with one decent multimeter, later stock up as you need more or better quality. Sometimes you need more than one DMM.
Tips: New stuff in the 50$ Range, like the mentioned zoyi model, or some equivalent Uni-T or Aneng stuff. That is ok to get your feet wet and is not too crappy to use later on. Alternatively some used Fluke handheld from ebay, if that is ok- like the 101 is great value if you do not have to measure Amps. Or, still smaller, some pocket DMM like [HIOKI] 3244-60 Card HiTester Pocket Digital Digital Multimeter- 40$ on ebay Japan as new product.

- Soldering Iron: This is a "one-shot" to get it right- and therefore it should fit. Hakko is nice, I have myself one. alternatively, if only small stuff gets soldered, she could go for a USB-powered iron like the pinecil oder some things like iFixit soldering station that gots reviewed by Dave:
The advantage here might be that it can be powered by an USB-C power supply- those could also be used (when bought at the right sizes and models) to power the rest of the gear, and/or use some frontend to a fixed voltage power supply like: https://www.conrad.de/de/p/joy-it-jt-ps360-labornetzgeraet-einstellbar-0-60-v-0-6-a-schmale-bauform-3203105.html?hk=SEM&WT.mc_id=google_pla&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=DE+-+PMAX+-+Nonbrand+-+Learning&utm_id=20402606569&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20392975386&gclid=Cj0KCQjwlYHBBhD9ARIsALRu09pAZKNqNxL-94TDxR5i--YpiONoqxPsf2jCxVWG9BnifXSbkUcI-CMaAi-DEALw_wcB&refresh=true#productTechData
Those can be powered by standard cheap fixed voltage supplies, like notebook PSU etc. you might get cheap from ebay or recycle from defective notebooks.

-scope: Question is here, if the scope only has to check the quality of the signal, or if you have to do precision work- there are lots of el cheapo options available, or use an integrated multimeter/scope solution.
Those are also quite compact and should be sufficient to check for signals on Arduino etc. - no need to go for a full size scope like Rigol 1054 or so.

[nctnico]

I discovered that I have a HP E3611A in my pile of stuff here, which I think is working. That'll sort one PSU out, pending testing, which is good.

That E3611A looks kind of nice. From my experience a lab PSU should have at least 10mV display resolution for the voltage. For many modern devices the maximum voltage is just a couple of hundred mV above the normal operation voltage. 100mV resolution isn't going to cut it.

[timeandfrequency]

Hello nctnico,

I discovered that I have a HP E3611A in my pile of stuff here, which I think is working. That'll sort one PSU out, pending testing, which is good.

That E3611A looks kind of nice. From my experience a lab PSU should have at least 10mV display resolution for the voltage. For many modern devices the maximum voltage is just a couple of hundred mV above the normal operation voltage. 100mV resolution isn't going to cut it.

Your requirement is more demanding than what TERRA Operative asked for. Hence, prices are not the same.
You may find linear PS (or SPS + linear end stage) with mV resolution from Aim-TTI. Also check out these. If a precise voltage delivery is required, using the Kelvin sense lines is compulsory(*). Prefer the programmable version if it's an option.

If one or several additional digit(s) is required (100 µV or better), you need to switch from PS to SMU.
Really cool stuff. Significant financial power is adviced .
Same gear, but made by the competitors.


(*) Corollary: small (USB-C or mains powered) PS with mV or even 10 mV display resolution that do not feature Kelvin sense lines is not a good choice. At 3 A, there's a 200 mV voltage drop in the wires that cannot be dynamically compensated . So payng for the extra digit without sense lines is just sqandering your money.

[TERRA Operative]

When I need precision, I use my Advantest R6161....

The E3611A will be mostly powering the usual modules on 0.1" headers for Arduino/Raspberry-Pi/Breadboard stuff and the like, probably through one of the breadboard power supply modules linked to earlier, so super accuracy isn't toooo critical, but if greater accuracy than the PSU display is needed then that's what the multimeter is for. (The E3611A has 10 turn pots, so it's not too bad to dial in)

[Aldo22]

From my experience a lab PSU should have at least 10mV display resolution for the voltage. For many modern devices the maximum voltage is just a couple of hundred mV above the normal operation voltage. 100mV resolution isn't going to cut it.

That's one reason why I like the little DPS-150.
You can adjust it in 10mV or 1mA steps and it's amazingly accurate.

[nctnico]

Hello nctnico,

I discovered that I have a HP E3611A in my pile of stuff here, which I think is working. That'll sort one PSU out, pending testing, which is good.

That E3611A looks kind of nice. From my experience a lab PSU should have at least 10mV display resolution for the voltage. For many modern devices the maximum voltage is just a couple of hundred mV above the normal operation voltage. 100mV resolution isn't going to cut it.

Your requirement is more demanding than what TERRA Operative asked for. Hence, prices are not the same.
You may find linear PS (or SPS + linear end stage) with mV resolution from Aim-TTI. Also check out these. If a precise voltage delivery is required, using the Kelvin sense lines is compulsory(*). Prefer the programmable version if it's an option.

You are mistaking resolution with precission.  The 10mV resolution is needed to see 100mV of precission (which is easy to achieve on a cheap PSU).

[Fungus]

it is a pity no one makes a DT830-style meter that is just a tiny bit better:

They do... 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/trashy-meters-redux/

[David Hess]

I would start off with two multimeters, which could be the same or different models.

[timeandfrequency]

Hello @nctnico,

Hello nctnico,

I discovered that I have a HP E3611A in my pile of stuff here, which I think is working. That'll sort one PSU out, pending testing, which is good.

That E3611A looks kind of nice. From my experience a lab PSU should have at least 10mV display resolution for the voltage. For many modern devices the maximum voltage is just a couple of hundred mV above the normal operation voltage. 100mV resolution isn't going to cut it.

Your requirement is more demanding than what TERRA Operative asked for. Hence, prices are not the same.
You may find linear PS (or SPS + linear end stage) with mV resolution from Aim-TTI. Also check out these. If a precise voltage delivery is required, using the Kelvin sense lines is compulsory(*). Prefer the programmable version if it's an option.

You are mistaking resolution with precission.  The 10mV resolution is needed to see 100mV of precission (which is easy to achieve on a cheap PSU).

You asked for 'at least 10 mV display resolution' and never talked about precision. What I suggested are PS that feature mV resolution that totally fulfill the requested requirement, so I don't know what you have to complain.
If your are not happy with my suggestion, why don't you do the search by yourself ?

[Aldo22]

As to Lab PSUs have a look at the Korad range. Just recently bought a U203.

The Korad U203 is an SMPS, right?
I've looked at the data sheet, but I'm not sure.
Why is this not openly communicated?
You always have to deduce it somehow via the ripple (≤20mVrms) or the weight (2.5kg).
I actually thought KORAD was known for linear PSUs.

[Messtechniker]

Yes. But what's the problem?  I use it to operate notebooks
with missing power brick. And with a diode inserted in the + line
to revive Lion Batteries from deep discharge state. Charging
these at 0.1 C for 30 mins usually does the trick.
The Korad U-series is quite new.

[Aldo22]

Yes. But what's the problem?

No problem. I just had in mind that Korad is known for linear PSUs, so I wasn't sure and the datasheet doesn't say it clearly.

Thanks!