Author Topic: Help running this 220v machine in my house  (Read 5810 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline administr4torTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 34
  • Country: ca
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2023, 04:48:01 pm »
yes, it does, I have this smaller version of the steam cleaner for last 2 years, using it without any issues but its not that good/hot enough and the power seems too less for the cleaning I want to do :(

I have 110v version of this.

 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2023, 06:10:41 pm »
I don't share the concern some have about these cheap machines. A heating element is not a complex device, even the cheap ones tend to work fine. I see no reason to believe that it uses anything other than a standard off the shelf element of the sort used in instant hot water heaters and such. I would open the lid and inspect the assembly and make sure the earth ground is connected but other than that just use it. I've rigged up far more sketchy/dangerous stuff for my own use.
 

Offline IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12537
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2023, 06:17:50 pm »
Not to mention, China has been known to execute people who sell dangerous products on the domestic market, so there is that too...
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2023, 06:22:19 pm »
I'm actually tempted to buy one of these things myself, I was not aware portable domestic machines even existed. Looks like it might be handy for spot cleaning underneath cars to remove the sludge and grime that accumulates from oil leaks and such.
 

Offline administr4torTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 34
  • Country: ca
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2023, 06:55:08 pm »
exactly the reason i bought small yellow one for.  I like things to be clean
 

Offline mjkuwp

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
  • Country: us
  • mechanical engineering defector
    • The Mz Lab
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2023, 08:07:59 pm »
how will it work? the AC in those NEMA are two single phase 120v right? and the AC the device would work on single 230v AC.

....

no, there are not really two phases in a USA house, it is split phase.  I am not 100% certain of what the nominal voltage is but in my house (USA) I often measure 125VAC.   We have two sides to our electrical box and various circuits are taken from one side of the box or the other at random (or maybe somebody plans it).  if I were to measure voltage between the two Hot wires of circuits taken from opposite sides of the main box, then I will get 240VAC or maybe even 250VAC. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2023, 08:45:41 pm »
no, there are not really two phases in a USA house, it is split phase.  I am not 100% certain of what the nominal voltage is but in my house (USA) I often measure 125VAC.   We have two sides to our electrical box and various circuits are taken from one side of the box or the other at random (or maybe somebody plans it).  if I were to measure voltage between the two Hot wires of circuits taken from opposite sides of the main box, then I will get 240VAC or maybe even 250VAC. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

The nominal voltage in the USA has varied over the years but for at least the past several decades it has been 120/240V. I forget what the allowable tolerance percentage is, but 125V is near the upper end IIRC and back in the incandescent era that would result in a significant lifespan reduction but increased efficiency of the bulbs.

To sum up split phase power in a nutshell, houses are fed by a 240V transformer with a center tapped secondary and this center tap is connected to ground and neutral. This gives you 120V from either side to ground and 240V between them.
 

Online J-R

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1319
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2023, 02:38:21 am »
IMHO, whether you call 240V or even 208V single phase or two/dual phase really should come down to whether the neutral is part of the load's circuit or not.

Three phase grid/commercial is "blatantly" three phase because there are three separate AC waveforms on three separate wires, 120 degrees out of "phase".  We can easily view this because we can pick an independent reference point when making our voltage over time graphs.  This definition hasn't changed since the 1800s.

For residential, we center-tap the secondary of the grid's step-down transformer to split 240V into two 120V outputs, each 180 degrees from each other.  If we graph our voltage over time for this using neutral (& ground to some extent) as our reference point, we see the SAME sine waves as the three phase, with the ONLY difference being that there are only two phases 180 degrees from each other, instead of three phases at 120 degrees from each other.

So while it's true that for N.A. residential there is only a single grid phase feeding your house transformer, we are essentially creating another "phase" by splitting the transformer.

Older electrical codes allowed 240V outlets with NO neutral.  In this case, there can be only one phase as far as the load is concerned, because it can't use ground as part of the circuit.  When graphing voltage over time, there is only a single sine waveform visible.
However, if I come along and reference ground with my two test equipment probes, I will see two waveforms, one on each wire, 180 degrees from each other, AKA two phase.
Newer electrical codes add a neutral back in to the 240V outlets, so again in this case you have two phases/waveforms.  There is just no getting around it.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2023, 03:00:57 am »
IMHO, whether you call 240V or even 208V single phase or two/dual phase really should come down to whether the neutral is part of the load's circuit or not.

Three phase grid/commercial is "blatantly" three phase because there are three separate AC waveforms on three separate wires, 120 degrees out of "phase".  We can easily view this because we can pick an independent reference point when making our voltage over time graphs.  This definition hasn't changed since the 1800s.

For residential, we center-tap the secondary of the grid's step-down transformer to split 240V into two 120V outputs, each 180 degrees from each other.  If we graph our voltage over time for this using neutral (& ground to some extent) as our reference point, we see the SAME sine waves as the three phase, with the ONLY difference being that there are only two phases 180 degrees from each other, instead of three phases at 120 degrees from each other.

So while it's true that for N.A. residential there is only a single grid phase feeding your house transformer, we are essentially creating another "phase" by splitting the transformer.

Older electrical codes allowed 240V outlets with NO neutral.  In this case, there can be only one phase as far as the load is concerned, because it can't use ground as part of the circuit.  When graphing voltage over time, there is only a single sine waveform visible.
However, if I come along and reference ground with my two test equipment probes, I will see two waveforms, one on each wire, 180 degrees from each other, AKA two phase.
Newer electrical codes add a neutral back in to the 240V outlets, so again in this case you have two phases/waveforms.  There is just no getting around it.


It's still called single phase power, a single split phase, not 2 phase. It's derived from one of the three phases that are present outside on the utility pole, though often a residential neighborhood will only have one phase run to it off of the arterial.

As far as I know you're still allowed to have 240V outlets without neutral. The change to the code mandates a neutral if you have any 120V loads on it. For example electric ranges used to typically use ground as neutral for the oven light and the clock and such, clothes dryers did the same with the interior light and timer. Modern dryers and ranges need a 4 prong plug and ground is used ONLY as a safety feature.
 

Online J-R

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1319
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2023, 03:48:22 am »
You can call it what you want, but it's still two phases.

208V created from two grid phases is called single phase, for the reason I stated, which is because there is no neutral.

So it has nothing to do with whether the grid is providing you one, two or three phases.

Ultimately, Sparky can't have it both ways, either 208V is two phase, and residential is single phase because of the grid connection, or 208V is single phase and residential is two phase because of the output waveforms present.

I don't see the logic in referencing some invisible upstream supply when talking about what is sitting in front of you.  You have what you have...
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2023, 04:18:41 am »
No, it's not, when it's 180 degrees of separation it cannot create a rotating field and it's considered a single phase, calling it whatever you want creates confusion. Talk to any electrician and they'll tell you it's single phase. 2 phase power distribution did exist at one point, but it was replaced by 3 phase which can carry more power over the same wires.

https://ctlsys.com/support/two-phase_electrical_service/

"Residential electric service in the United States (120/240 Vac) is sometimes called two-phase service but this is NOT correct. It is only single-phase, since both line voltages are derived from a single phase of a distribution transformer with a center tapped neutral and are 180° out of phase with each other."

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/611732/why-is-north-american-residential-power-called-single-phase


 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Offline DavidKo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 308
  • Country: cz
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2023, 05:13:20 am »
There was a lot of talking about 220V vs. 230V during the switching period from 220V -> 230V and it was said that it should be not an issue since the devices were made for 220V +-10%. I do not want to say that this is a common praxis nowadays, but as rule of thumb it can be taken since the voltage in the network changes during the day and week day (cooking on Sundays vs. nights in working days) and usually some compromises on power lines are done.
 

Offline IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12537
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2023, 05:31:23 am »
"Residential electric service in the United States (120/240 Vac) is sometimes called two-phase service but this is NOT correct. It is only single-phase, since both line voltages are derived from a single phase of a distribution transformer with a center tapped neutral and [the two voltages] are 180° out of phase with each other."

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/611732/why-is-north-american-residential-power-called-single-phase

If you divide the unit circle into thirds, you get three vectors 120° apart, giving three phases (and three phasors).

If you divide the unit circle into halves, you get two vectors 180° apart, giving two phases (and two phasors).

For electricians and power engineers it is a split phase supply, but for physicists and mathematicians there are two phases 180° apart. Trying to pretend this is not true is like trying to re-define pi as being equal to 3.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2023, 05:35:58 am »
"Residential electric service in the United States (120/240 Vac) is sometimes called two-phase service but this is NOT correct. It is only single-phase, since both line voltages are derived from a single phase of a distribution transformer with a center tapped neutral and [the two voltages] are 180° out of phase with each other."

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/611732/why-is-north-american-residential-power-called-single-phase

If you divide the unit circle into thirds, you get three vectors 120° apart, giving three phases (and three phasors).

If you divide the unit circle into halves, you get two vectors 180° apart, giving two phases (and two phasors).

For electricians and power engineers it is a split phase supply, but for physicists and mathematicians there are two phases 180° apart. Trying to pretend this is not true is like trying to re-define pi as being equal to 3.

I'm not saying that isn't true, I'm saying it's called single phase power. Physicists and mathematicians aren't really relevant to this particular discussion. The topic isn't mathematical theory, it's practical application. In practical application, the correct name is single phase, the panel will say single phase, the distribution transformers will be labeled single phase, in this context 2 phase means something different.
 

Online Nusa

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2418
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2023, 06:20:30 am »

As far as I know you're still allowed to have 240V outlets without neutral. The change to the code mandates a neutral if you have any 120V loads on it. For example electric ranges used to typically use ground as neutral for the oven light and the clock and such, clothes dryers did the same with the interior light and timer. Modern dryers and ranges need a 4 prong plug and ground is used ONLY as a safety feature.

Existing installs are grandfathered (3-pin dryer plugs are common in older houses), but haven't been legal for new installs since the mid-90's.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2023, 06:25:50 am »
Existing installs are grandfathered (3-pin dryer plugs are common in older houses), but haven't been legal for new installs since the mid-90's.

But that's because dryers universally (or nearly so) have 120V loads that require a neutral. Can't you still have a 240V receptacle without neutral for something like an air compressor or welder that is purely 240V? The 240V EV chargers I wired up for a friend a few years ago didn't have a neutral, they came with 3 pin 30A plugs.
 

Offline IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12537
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2023, 06:49:08 am »
Existing installs are grandfathered (3-pin dryer plugs are common in older houses), but haven't been legal for new installs since the mid-90's.

But that's because dryers universally (or nearly so) have 120V loads that require a neutral. Can't you still have a 240V receptacle without neutral for something like an air compressor or welder that is purely 240V? The 240V EV chargers I wired up for a friend a few years ago didn't have a neutral, they came with 3 pin 30A plugs.

I have a NEMA 6-20 receptacle for my 240 V appliances. I can't think of a reason why that would be a problem for anything that doesn't require 120 V internally.
 

Online J-R

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1319
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2023, 07:26:16 am »
It's just never going to be logical to call N.A. residential "single" phase, because you would need to differentiate between that and a 230V/240V single phase service with only a SINGLE hot, for example as found in some countries.

However, "split-phase" seems like a reasonable compromise to both "parties" involved.  I'm sure that is why it came into being.
 

Online Nusa

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2418
  • Country: us
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2023, 07:42:31 am »
Existing installs are grandfathered (3-pin dryer plugs are common in older houses), but haven't been legal for new installs since the mid-90's.

But that's because dryers universally (or nearly so) have 120V loads that require a neutral. Can't you still have a 240V receptacle without neutral for something like an air compressor or welder that is purely 240V? The 240V EV chargers I wired up for a friend a few years ago didn't have a neutral, they came with 3 pin 30A plugs.

I have a NEMA 6-20 receptacle for my 240 V appliances. I can't think of a reason why that would be a problem for anything that doesn't require 120 V internally.

It's not, since that's two hots and a ground. And I bet your dryer isn't one of those appliances.

The now-banned dryer receptacles (NEMA 10-30) are two hots and a neutral -- the 3-wire dryer cord typically connects the neutral to the dryer chassis to double as a less-safe safety ground. In what is often a wet area. The lack of an independant earth ground is the issue.
 

Offline administr4torTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 34
  • Country: ca
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2023, 05:12:01 pm »
The seller has replied that the machine can work between 220v and 240V

 

Offline administr4torTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 34
  • Country: ca
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2023, 07:38:55 pm »
I got the machine today.

i connected it and its running at 13.5A out of nema 14-50 plug.
I also connected it to 120v receptacle and it started running at 6A

 

Offline jonpaul

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3656
  • Country: fr
  • Analog, magnetics, Power, HV, Audio, Cinema
    • IEEE Spectrum
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2023, 08:51:57 pm »
dangerous Chinese appliances, bad record of fire, poor wiring unsafe insulation

I would not use  such junk in my house.

Check out the approval of the Chinese appliances, the safety compliance trademark may be counterfeit

Thus no valid UL, ETL, CE safety test.

Incase of any incident you will be responsible and liable

Be safe!

j
An Internet Dinosaur...
 
The following users thanked this post: administr4tor

Online themadhippy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3264
  • Country: gb
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2023, 09:02:33 pm »
Quote
i connected it and its running at 13.5A out of nema 14-50 plug.
I also connected it to 120v receptacle and it started running at 6A
Well theres a surprise,  ole ohms law still works
 

Offline shapirus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1721
  • Country: ua
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2023, 09:22:24 pm »
What a useful thread. Now I know that if I ever move to N.A., I can bring in some of my 230V home made equipment and be able to use it without a step-up transformer, provided that the house or apartment has a split-phase wall socket, which it is supposed to have if it has a washing and (or?) drying machine, is that correct? :)
 

Offline Bud

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7276
  • Country: ca
Re: Help running this 220v machine in my house
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2023, 09:29:35 pm »
Yes, you can conveniently set up your lab in the kitchen or in the laundry room.  :-+
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf