Author Topic: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer  (Read 9011 times)

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Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2024, 01:59:25 am »
Thank you, I'm sure they do. I might try the software out eventually, but I don't have the meter connected via USB; it's only connected via LAN.

I do like the graphs that come from the analyzer. It's interesting to see the frequency sweeps. It seems to me that it makes the valid test frequency range more obvious. The funny thing is that I thought it was slow, and then I remembered I have avg set to 16 still, and apparently that carried over to the analyzer. Next time I'm going to try either less samples, or no averaging and see how fast the sweep from 20Hz to 5MHz goes.

Have you seen the IM9000 firmware option? That's also interesting, with more plot types available. I don't have that option currently.
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2024, 07:24:35 pm »
BTW check out the large protection range the IM3536 has, expect the same for the IM3570 :-+

Best,
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Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2024, 08:49:37 pm »
That's cool. My manual didn't have that graph, but it did have this:

« Last Edit: August 24, 2024, 08:52:26 pm by KungFuJosh »
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Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2024, 11:49:19 pm »
I was right about correction timing. 1:26 for the Hioki. ~1:25 for the ST2832.
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Offline The Electrician

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2024, 04:11:06 am »
I´m deaf and got space... ;D
Nice catch !!!  :-+

 :-DD

It's not that loud...just louder than everything else on my bench. 😉

It might be very slightly smaller than the 3532-50. ETA: Deeper, but a little less wide.
Congrats on the score!

I've had my Im3570 for over 10 years.  Search for "hioki" under my handle.  I've posted a lot showing IM3570 results like these:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/capacitor-measurements-on-an-impedance-analyzer/msg178362/#msg178362

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/measuring-very-low-esr/msg1313277/#msg1313277
 
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2024, 01:24:06 pm »
The IM3570 was what we wanted but had to settle for the IM3536 a few years back. We needed traceability, so a used 3570 would need to have a valid Full Instrument Calibration or we would need to have this done before use, putting the cost above our limited budget.

So we've just resolved to creating custom PC and RPi plotting routines to assist the IM3536 (and TH2830) in creating nice plots like the IM3570 can directly produce.

Best,
« Last Edit: August 27, 2024, 01:27:31 pm by mawyatt »
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Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2024, 01:38:55 pm »
Congrats on the score!

I've had my Im3570 for over 10 years.  Search for "hioki" under my handle.  I've posted a lot showing IM3570 results like these:

Thanks! It's a wonderful tool and a joy to work with so far.

Now that you mention it, I've actually seen those threads. I remember the SRF conversation lol.

Thanks,
Josh
"Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before." - Steven Wright
 
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Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2024, 11:43:52 pm »
I guess it was only a matter of time, but here's the inside of the L2000 fixture. Looks like exceptional quality and design to me. I'm not taking apart the clips. 😉
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Offline Martin72

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2024, 12:00:48 am »
Quote
Looks like exceptional quality and design to me.

You can see it in the second picture.
Shaken, not stirred...ehhh...crimped, not soldered. ;)
 
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2024, 03:12:15 pm »
Josh,

Can you tell if the Kelvin wire shields follow down the clip handles, or the unshielded blades like the Tonghui Kelvin Clips?

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2024, 03:20:06 pm »
Can you tell if the Kelvin wire shields follow down the clip handles, or the unshielded blades like the Tonghui Kelvin Clips?

I can't tell. There's no way to peak inside without disassembling the clips. They're fully insulated for sure (see photo), which makes me want to believe they're fully shielded too. For the retail price, they sure as hell should be.
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2024, 12:30:11 am »
Can you tell if the Kelvin wire shields follow down the clip handles, or the unshielded blades like the Tonghui Kelvin Clips?

I can't tell. There's no way to peak inside without disassembling the clips. They're fully insulated for sure (see photo), which makes me want to believe they're fully shielded too. For the retail price, they sure as hell should be.

Setup the Kelvin Clips measuring a leaded 1~10pF Mica cap at 100KHz, then slide hand around on clips "H" handle and remove hand while watching readings. Do this test with the Tonghui and Hioki Kelvin Clips and note the effects of the hand around the clip "H" handles.

If the Hioki are significantly less sensitive to hand placement than the Tonghui, then likely the shields extend down the Clip handles. We know the Tonghui is sensitive as it has the connection blades unshielded extending up thru the Clip handles like the cheap Kelvin Clips you see everywhere.

These work fine at DC or very low frequencies, but not as frequency increases, and why we prefer the various other type fixtures available or by custom design/construction/modification.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2024, 12:49:58 am »
I can do that test with the Hioki, but the Tonghui is packed up to be sold.

The L2000 is rated DC to 8MHz, I sincerely doubt that it's not shielded in the clip handles. I just read the (attached) manual, and I never noticed the arrows for correction before. Oops.
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2024, 01:11:10 am »
Hopefully they are shielded to the tip. Even coming from Hioki we wouldn't put much faith in Kelvin Clip measurements at 5MHz, much less 8MHz. Just too many almost uncontrollable variables at play :o

Do take note of the data sheet and how Hioki recommends the Short Compensation, so many folks don't pay attention to the actual Kelvin Tip Identification (all our Kelvin Clips have Identification on each Tip, Hc, Hp, Lc, Lp wether from OEM or we added such.

If you carefully trace the LCR Meter currents thru the Kelvin Clips you'll see why this is important for very low Z measurements and this applies to 4 wire DMM measurements as well.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
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Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2024, 01:16:45 am »
I feel like at some point I need to let you borrow them to put them through some tests. 😉
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Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2024, 01:36:52 am »
Setup the Kelvin Clips measuring a leaded 1~10pF Mica cap at 100KHz, then slide hand around on clips "H" handle and remove hand while watching readings. Do this test with the Tonghui and Hioki Kelvin Clips and note the effects of the hand around the clip "H" handles.

The closest Mica that (I can remember) I stock is 50pF.

Here's the results with that:
100kHz:
50.4969pF (normal)
50.4591pF (touched)

500kHz:
50.5012pF (normal)
50.4378pF (touched)

1MHz:
50.6144pF (normal)
50.5695pF (touched)

2MHz:
51.1630pF (normal)
51.1161pF (touched)

5MHz:
54.0836pF (normal)
54.0478pF (touched)


When I say touched, I mean I squeezed one of the H handles in my hand. The effect wasn't that different across the board. Also should note there was maybe 10 minutes of warmup time.

Thanks,
Josh
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2024, 01:45:40 am »
See if you can find something under 10pF, you want the DUT impedance to be high to "see" the hand effects. A C0G 10pF leaded ceramic should work.

Make measurements with no hands, then holding Kelvin Clips.

Ideally the shield should make your hand effects minimal. The less the shield follows down the Clip handle to the tip, the more influence your hands have.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2024, 01:48:09 am »
See if you can find something under 10pF, you want the DUT impedance to be high to "see" the hand effects. A C0G 10pF leaded ceramic should work.

Can I use them on my LCR Cal Test PCB? I have 1pF or 10pF on there I can test the clips with if that's okay.
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2024, 02:15:58 am »
See if you can find something under 10pF, you want the DUT impedance to be high to "see" the hand effects. A C0G 10pF leaded ceramic should work.

Can I use them on my LCR Cal Test PCB? I have 1pF or 10pF on there I can test the clips with if that's okay.

Sure, you are just looking for the effects of your hands on the Kelvin Clips Handles. Small effect likely they are well shielded!!

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
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Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2024, 02:24:03 am »
Sure, you are just looking for the effects of your hands on the Kelvin Clips Handles. Small effect likely they are well shielded!!

Here's 10pF. The larger values are untouched, and the lower values are with my palm lightly pressed against the H handle.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2024, 03:05:09 am by KungFuJosh »
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Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2024, 02:24:57 am »
And here's 1pF. I was generally careful to avoid pushing the handle too hard, but ya know how it goes. 😉
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2024, 02:31:51 am »
That's more than we expected if the handles hosted shielded wires. If you have any other type Kelvin Clips would be worth a comparison.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
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Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2024, 02:53:53 am »
TH26011CS 10pF...
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Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2024, 02:55:14 am »
TH26011CS 1pF...
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Offline KungFuJoshTopic starter

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Re: Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2024, 02:56:44 am »
That's more than we expected if the handles hosted shielded wires. If you have any other type Kelvin Clips would be worth a comparison.

Looks a little better than the TH26011CS. The L2000 was also more stable with the values on screen.

Average changes:
L2000: 0.11805pF
TH26011CS: 0.3906pF

It's not quite 4 times better, but pretty close.

ETA: Even though the TH26011CS wasn't as stable, it still it did surprisingly well in the 1MHz range considering it's only rated officially up to 100kHz.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2024, 11:08:25 pm by KungFuJosh »
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