Hobbie multimeter

[Fungus]

I'm sure there's thousands of American probing their mains feed with free Harbor Freight meters as we speak.

[tooki]

Well eating is a bit much, but alligators have been seen in Switzerland in 2019.

Actually, no.

1. It was initially suspected of being a caiman, which is related to an alligator, but is not an alligator.
2. It was later determined to not be a reptile at all, but a wels catfish: https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/raetsel-geloest-das-ist-der-kaiman-vom-hallwilersee-662416332905

[Aldo22]

That's a quibble (“Wortklauberei, Spítzfindigkeit”).

No, it isn't. Words matter in discussions, especially in arguments, and even more so in a forum full of engineering pedants!

"Fantasy" is not a technical word and your concept of it is too narrow.
Perhaps something is lost in translation, but there is, for example, the term “suicide fantasy”. Based on this, I used the term “death fantasy” - half-jokingly.

“Suicide fantasy” doesn't mean that suicide doesn't exist, but that the thought of it haunts me.
Just as certain people are apparently haunted by the idea that the DMM wants to kill them. 

But we'll leave it at that. It's more psychology than electronics.

[Fungus]

Just as certain people are apparently haunted by the idea that the DMM wants to kill them. 

There's a lot of those here.

It's nice to know that a meter is robust because inductive spikes are real and we don't want to kill our meters just by connecting them to a few turns of wire at 5V but there are many people here who think buying less than an industrial-plant rated meter is a death wish.

[wasedadoc]

In the UK only an authorised engineer working for or on behalf of the supply company should be able to probe the supply side of the main fuse.  In my case that is a 63 Amp one.  Both sides of that fuse and the subsequent live and neutral connections to the consumption meter are totally enclosed requiring the breaking of seals to gain access.  No right-minded hobbyist would be trying to measure before the supply company's fuse when there are easily available places after the fuse.

In Canada (Ontario), you have access to the line coming in directly from the meter.  In fact, I wired it up myself (the whole house, actually).  The only requirement is that you take out a permit and have it inspected by the electrical safety authority.  There is an additional cover over that end of the panel, but there are not any seals or restricted access.  Just 4 screws away.

I especially like to get in there a start probing around with a cheap meter when there are lighting storms.   

Yes, basically the same in the UK and I expect most countries.  No access at any point before the customer side of the usage meter. (Otherwise bypassing the meter and stealing electricity would be too easy and tempting.)  The main fuse is on the supplier side of the meter.  So no way a hobbyist at home should be exposed to the full unfused capability of the supply network.

[BillyO]

The main fuse is on the supplier side of the meter.  So no way a hobbyist at home should be exposed to the full unfused capability of the supply network.

Here the main breaker is on the customer side of the meter.  Since circa 1980 I think, all new detached homes were fitted with 200A service.  I built my house in 1990 and was required to put in a 200A service @220V CT.  It comes in through a 200KVA pole mounted transformer which feeds 3 other properties.

[Fungus]

In the UK only an authorised engineer working for or on behalf of the supply company should be able to probe the supply side of the main fuse.  In my case that is a 63 Amp one.  Both sides of that fuse and the subsequent live and neutral connections to the consumption meter are totally enclosed requiring the breaking of seals to gain access.

It's the same here in Spain.

Anecdote: A while back my neighbor called me because the lights didn't work. Turns out a circuit breaker had tripped so it was an easy fix but while I was inside the breaker box I noticed the twisted-wire seal was missing from the cover of the "big breaker". Go figure.

[Aldo22]

Instead of scaremongering, how about we define in which situations this whole “safety” story is relevant at all?
In other words, for whom is it worth buying an expensive fluke or similar and for whom is it a waste of money?

Let me start (RFC)
- For those who only sit behind their 30V/10A power supply, all these considerations are irrelevant.
- Anyone who does anything with cables coming from the socket should watch where he has his fingers. Whether Fluke or Zotek makes no difference in terms of life expectancy.
- Anyone working in hazardous areas should have the training of a professional and use professional tools.

Right?

[Fungus]

Anybody who pokes around in dangerous places should wear at least one glove and eye/ear protection but I bet very few people here do.

(look at the photos on the Fluke web site - they all wear PPE)

Yes, my big complaint is that the people here telling others not to buy "unsafe" meters always fail to mention safety procedure. It's as if the meter itself will save you.

It's almost safer to buy a cheap meter and be afraid of the wires than use an expensive meter with overconfidence.

[HKJ]

Cheap meters are safe when working with low voltage (i.e. 12-30V).
Cheap meters are mostly safe at mains voltage (120-230V) at domestic current levels.
Cheap meters are unsafe at industrial settings, i.e. lots of amperes (50+) with voltage at 230 and above.

A industrial installation with 100's of amps and 600V will easily kill you if yo make a mistake (that is also true for a safe meter, but a smaller mistake are not as serious as with a cheap meter).

[joeqsmith]

Instead of scaremongering, how about we define in which situations this whole “safety” story is relevant at all?
In other words, for whom is it worth buying an expensive fluke or similar and for whom is it a waste of money?

Let me start (RFC)
- For those who only sit behind their 30V/10A power supply, all these considerations are irrelevant.
- Anyone who does anything with cables coming from the socket should watch where he has his fingers. Whether Fluke or Zotek makes no difference in terms of life expectancy.
- Anyone working in hazardous areas should have the training of a professional and use professional tools.

Right?

I don't want them for their safety.  I want them because they are electrically and mechanically more robust.

Sitting behind a 30V @ 10A power supply, then to my DC-DC at 4000V @ 50mA.  Safe to touch?  Its behind the power supply so I guess it is safe.   I then use that to  charge my 100uF capacitor bank.   1/2CV^2...  800Joules.  Safe to touch?   Sounds like it should be.  After all it is behind that safe power supply.   Personally, I am not going near it no matter what you claim. 

In other words, I want a meter that may actually survive if I do something stupid.   

***
Stupid, like using it to discharge my microwave oven's capacitor.

[bdunham7]

Instead of scaremongering, how about we define in which situations this whole “safety” story is relevant at all?
In other words, for whom is it worth buying an expensive fluke or similar and for whom is it a waste of money?

Start by not presuming that Fluke customers are primarily concerned with being incinerated by arc-flash.  We, or at least I, are not contesting that your ZT-225 is reasonably safe for use on low-voltage up to and including single-phase household mains that don't exceed the 250VAC rating of the fuse.  The CAT rating would imply it is suitable for much more but I don't think I'd like to rely on that.  I would especially recommend that you avoid using it on any HVDC solar systems and maybe think carefully before probing any mains-powered SMPS units.  And, of course, microwave ovens are to be avoided unless you have the proper tools (I do) and some idea of what you are doing.  Beyond that it is more a case of what is going to kill your meter rather than what might kill you. 

[Zoli]

...
Sitting behind a 30V @ 10A power supply, then to my DC-DC at 4000V @ 50mA.  Safe to touch?  Its behind the power supply so I guess it is safe.   I then use that to  charge my 100uF capacitor bank.   1/2CV^2...  800Joules.  Safe to touch?   Sounds like it should be.  After all it is behind that safe power supply.   Personally, I am not going near it no matter what you claim. 

In other words, I want a meter that may actually survive if I do something stupid.   

***
Stupid, like using it to discharge my microwave oven's capacitor.

Over 1kV you should use a HV probe; so if you do something like described above, you can only blame yourself.

[EEVblog]

Instead of scaremongering, how about we define in which situations this whole “safety” story is relevant at all?
In other words, for whom is it worth buying an expensive fluke or similar and for whom is it a waste of money?

I see the whole CAT rating thing as serving two purposes:
1) as a nice rule of thumb.
If you do anything mains rated regularly, or would like your meter to stand a better chance of surviving some random incident either dumb or unknown, then it's best to get at least a (genuine) CAT III rated meter. Not essential, but nice.

2) For companies that need a known minimum standard so their arse is covered. For most people this doesn't apply, even the likes of professional electricians. It's not like an electrican can't get insurance if they aren't using a CAT IV rated Fluke meter for example.

This is why the new 61010 standard has removed the CAT I and CAT II ratings frm the front panel of meters, so you aren't potentially confused when you glance at that CAT rating on the front of the meter.
Only CAT III/IV meters are now allowed to have CAT printed on the front of them.

If you really really really care about robustness and high voltage then you'll get one of the newer high voltage rated meters that are now being made for the solar industry. And even then you are likely using special probes for stuff.

[Aldo22]

I don't want them for their safety.  I want them because they are electrically and mechanically more robust.
...
In other words, I want a meter that may actually survive if I do something stupid.   

Beyond that it is more a case of what is going to kill your meter rather than what might kill you. 

I understand, but these are considerations that primarily concern professionals or "hardcore hobbyists" who use the devices in hard, daily use.
I have about seven inexpensive meters, some of which have been around for decades and all of them still work. At most, a mA fuse blows once in a while.

For example, if you buy a ZT-225 or an AN870 for $27, the DMM probably costs less than the fuse on a “decent” meter.

Why should I care as a hobbyist who doesn't venture into dangerous areas?
It makes no sense to me economically or in terms of event probability.

[EEVblog]

Why should I care as a hobbyist who doesn't venture into dangerous areas?
It makes no sense to me economically or in terms of event probability.

I'm a multimeter dealer, I've sold 10's of thousands of them.
The number that have been returned due to external electrical overload damage is zero.

[Muttley Snickers]

I blew up a meter recently just checking the point contact on my old Scott Bonnar lawn mower.       It happened in an instant when I put the meter in low ohms range and without thinking slowly rotated the flywheel which induced a voltage from the ignition coil and destroyed the meter. This was the first multimeter I ever bought so I've had it since 1990, and one of the very few meters I own which had no input protection whatsoever. RIP Dick Smith Q1425   

[Traceless]

I'm sure there's thousands of American probing their mains feed with free Harbor Freight meters as we speak.

Which is not necessarily a good idea.

Anybody who pokes around in dangerous places should wear at least one glove and eye/ear protection but I bet very few people here do.

(look at the photos on the Fluke web site - they all wear PPE)

Yes, my big complaint is that the people here telling others not to buy "unsafe" meters always fail to mention safety procedure. It's as if the meter itself will save you.

It's almost safer to buy a cheap meter and be afraid of the wires than use an expensive meter with overconfidence.

But a good meter has its merits and absolutely can save you under certain circumstances as demonstrated in the video below.

PPE/safety measures are important, however I've yet to see an electrician wearing gloves and safety glasses working on household mains. I also doubt that most people put on safety glasses or gloves when changing a light bulb. I think one of the most important safety measures in this case is to turn off the breaker *and* then double check that there is no power present which is best done with a "safe" meter. The Harbor Freight freebie style meter doesn't seem to be one of those.

https://youtu.be/OEoazQ1zuUM?feature=shared&t=375

The video also demonstrates joeqsmith's point - with a "proper" meter you may get away with making a stupid mistake.

Also on the original topic and the Uni-T 61E which seems to be over budget - maybe a Brymen BM231 is a decent choice closer to the OPs budget.

[Fungus]

I think one of the most important safety measures in this case is to turn off the breaker *and* then double check that there is no power present which is best done with a "safe" meter. The Harbor Freight freebie style meter doesn't seem to be one of those.

I like putting on the lights (and/or plug in a lamp) and make sure they go off.

[Aldo22]

The Harbor Freight freebie style meter doesn't seem to be one of those.
...
The video also demonstrates joeqsmith's point - with a "proper" meter you may get away with making a stupid mistake.

OK, but this is clearly Fluke advertising.
The fact that they apparently have to compare the absolute cheapest junk to show the superiority of their devices is not exactly praiseworthy either.
There are enough videos that show that a Zotek (Zoyi, Aneng, Richmeters, Kasuntest...) can withstand quite a lot.

[Traceless]

I like putting on the lights (and/or plug in a lamp) and make sure they go off.

The bulb is off because it is broken, to do the lights test you'd need to get a new one in first - so that test only works when you're done with the potentially dangerous procedure. Testing some other outlet is not safe it might be on a different breaker. You test the socket you're working on.

[Fungus]

I like putting on the lights (and/or plug in a lamp) and make sure they go off.

You test the socket you're working on.

That'll be the "plug in a lamp" part.

The bulb is off because it is broken

You make sure they go "on" first. You can even turn them on/off a couple of times with the breaker. There's really not much need to use a multimeter at all.

How do you trust your multimeter without a proving unit?

[Aldo22]

ZT-225 and AN870 have NCV.
This is good for testing if there is power on it and it is safe unless you fall off your chair... 

[Traceless]

Yes, my big complaint is that the people here telling others not to buy "unsafe" meters always fail to mention safety procedure. It's as if the meter itself will save you.

It's almost safer to buy a cheap meter and be afraid of the wires than use an expensive meter with overconfidence.

For someone who was so adamant about safety procedure you really try to weasel around safe procedure.

That'll be the "plug in a lamp" part.

I don't know how things are in the area you live but here ceiling lights have a socket usually E27 or E14. So you can not plug in a bulb you have to screw it in. Unlike Power outlets those sockets are big an you can get your fingers in really easy. So that is why you deactivate power before changing the bulb.

How do you trust your multimeter without a proving unit?

Taking a measurement at a socket before turning off the breaker and make sure it shows 240 VAC. Then turn the breaker off and make sure there is no voltage present. If the meter breaks between those two measurements - tough luck.

[Fungus]

I don't know how things are in the area you live but here ceiling lights have a socket usually E27 or E14. So you can not plug in a bulb you have to screw it in. Unlike Power outlets those sockets are big an you can get your fingers in really easy. So that is why you deactivate power before changing the bulb.

You don't wear gloves?