EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: fishandchips on May 07, 2017, 01:28:21 pm
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Any opinion on this?
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The probes are very low quality and sensitive to temperature. So you will have to calibrate the probe over and over.
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Thanks for your experience. I am consider the new Keysight 1000x series, GW Instek GDS-2204E and the Rigol DS1054Z. How are they compared?
I think I read a post mentioning that the new Keysight 1000x series could be hacked like the 1054Z. What extra features will that bring? Is it easy to hack? If I intend to hack it to get better and more features for free, is it better to buy it as soon as possible while Keysight still allows that? Some people think that this is done intentionally by Keysight but who knows for sure?
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I'd add the MicSig TO1104 to the list with choices as well. Probes can be replaced so meh but what could become a problem is the extremely short memory in the Keysight 1000X series and the fact it only has 2 channels.
What do you need in an oscilloscope? What kind of circuits do you work on?
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I'd add the MicSig TO1104 to the list with choices as well. Probes can be replaced so meh but what could become a problem is the extremely short memory in the Keysight 1000X series and the fact it only has 2 channels.
What do you need in an oscilloscope? What kind of circuits do you work on?
Extremely short memory even after the Keysight scope is hacked?
I do motor control, simple filters, Op Amp, mechatronics, arduino/maker kind of stuffs.
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which hack?
IMHO short memory is relative, when you're used to work with 2.5 kpts and 48 kpts.
you have listed scopes in very different price ranges and with different capabilities. for example, the rigol doesn't decode nor trigger can bus, if at some point you'll need it you're out of luck. the keysight while beying pricey and with a shorter memory does have a buil-in waveform gen and the FRA app. If you don't care for it you may want to instead invest in another scope
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As a rule of thumb you can use only up to 25% of the memory Keysight specifies and it gets less with reference traces and digital channels enabled. For 1Mpts that comes down to 250kpts per channel. I don't think you can hack more memory into the 1000X series and even if it would be possible in the future then there will be a hard limit of 4Mpts in total (1Mpts per channel) because the hardware simple doesn't have more memory.
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Thanks for your experience. I am consider the new Keysight 1000x series, GW Instek GDS-2204E and the Rigol DS1054Z. How are they compared?
I don't have the scope myself, but read about a lot of issues in another thread on this forum.
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As a rule of thumb you can use only up to 25% of the memory Keysight specifies and it gets less with reference traces and digital channels enabled. For 1Mpts that comes down to 250kpts per channel. I don't think you can hack more memory into the 1000X series and even if it would be possible in the future then there will be a hard limit of 4Mpts in total (1Mpts per channel) because the hardware simple doesn't have more memory.
The 1000X doesn't have digital channels (unless the trigger input channel counts -- it can be used for SPI protocol decoding so maybe it counts here? Dunno), so I wouldn't think that would be much of a concern.
So if you stop the scope, or the scope stops automatically in one-shot trigger mode, you only get 250K points worth of buffered memory with the 1000X? Does someone here have a 1000X that they can verify this with? This should be straightforward to verify.
Also, I'm amused that this scope has "a lot of issues", seeing how it's an A-brand scope from a well-respected manufacturer, not some Chinese B-brand scope that is usually the target of ridicule...
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Unfortunately the actual memory depth is well hidden on Keysight scopes and probably for a good reason. Deep memory is a very nice feature to have. Sure you can make do with less but IMHO deep memory is a feature which serves so many purposes that it should have a high priority when choosing an oscilloscope.
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The 1000X doesn't have digital channels (unless the trigger input channel counts -- it can be used for SPI protocol decoding so maybe it counts here? Dunno), so I wouldn't think that would be much of a concern.
DSOX1000-X series has 1 digital channel that is shared with the external trigger BNC port. It is not a simple external trigger, you can visualize the signal and add it to the analog BUS with CH1 and CH2. EDUX1000-X does not have the same capability, but can be modded.
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Thanks for your experience. I am consider the new Keysight 1000x series, GW Instek GDS-2204E and the Rigol DS1054Z. How are they compared?
I don't have the scope myself, but read about a lot of issues in another thread on this forum.
Can you list the issues, besides the ones already commented on this thread?
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And let's not forget that the probe compensation issue was one person, my probes are fine. They do feel cheap, like $15/pair cheap, but they do the job - and the lead is silicone.
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And let's not forget that the probe compensation issue was one person, my probes are fine. They do feel cheap, like $15/pair cheap, but they do the job - and the lead is silicone.
I also posted that I experienced a similar problem with the probe compensation, but I could not reproduce the problem. I think I experienced the problem when I used a metallic pointed probe compensation tool, but I compensated again using the tool provided by Keysight and has been working fine.
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I'd add the MicSig TO1104 to the list with choices as well. Probes can be replaced so meh but what could become a problem is the extremely short memory in the Keysight 1000X series and the fact it only has 2 channels.
What do you need in an oscilloscope? What kind of circuits do you work on?
Extremely short memory even after the Keysight scope is hacked?
I do motor control, simple filters, Op Amp, mechatronics, arduino/maker kind of stuffs.
The EDUX can gain the most by hacking (it requieres adding some HW components as well), but on the DSOX the only hack possible is 70MHz to 100MHz bandwidth improvement (I think it was tested up to 200MHz by Dave Jones).
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Unfortunately the actual memory depth is well hidden on Keysight scopes and probably for a good reason. Deep memory is a very nice feature to have. Sure you can make do with less but IMHO deep memory is a feature which serves so many purposes that it should have a high priority when choosing an oscilloscope.
The actual usable memory depth should be trivial to determine. You know your timebase and your sample rate, and you can see when the scope is stopped how much of the capture is visible on the screen -- and if you zoom out enough once the scope is stopped, you can see how much of the screen the entire capture occupies. Then you just do the math.
You won't get any argument from me about the usefulness of deep memory. It's why I've argued that capture memory really should be much deeper than it is, given the cost and availability of DDR3 memory.
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I read that the DS1054Z's fan is very noisy and the GDS-2204E is a bit quiet. How about the Keysight 1000x series? In terms of the GUI, looks like the Keysight 1000x series is the best. Do we see slow motions and lags in the 1000x series? I read that there were lags with the DS1054Z but the problem seems to have been fixed.
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I read that the DS1054Z's fan is very noisy and the GDS-2204E is a bit quiet. How about the Keysight 1000x series? In terms of the GUI, looks like the Keysight 1000x series is the best. Do we see slow motions and lags in the 1000x series? I read that there were lags with the DS1054Z but the problem seems to have been fixed.
Keysight (Agilent, HP) scopes are the best in terms of UI responsiveness
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I'd add the MicSig TO1104 to the list with choices as well. Probes can be replaced so meh but what could become a problem is the extremely short memory in the Keysight 1000X series and the fact it only has 2 channels.
What do you need in an oscilloscope? What kind of circuits do you work on?
Extremely short memory even after the Keysight scope is hacked?
I do motor control, simple filters, Op Amp, mechatronics, arduino/maker kind of stuffs.
The EDUX can gain the most by hacking (it requieres adding some HW components as well), but on the DSOX the only hack possible is 70MHz to 100MHz bandwidth improvement (I think it was tested up to 200MHz by Dave Jones).
The hardware is definitely capable of 200MHz, but I suspect some software hacks will be needed to make it work properly.
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Unfortunately the actual memory depth is well hidden on Keysight scopes and probably for a good reason. Deep memory is a very nice feature to have. Sure you can make do with less but IMHO deep memory is a feature which serves so many purposes that it should have a high priority when choosing an oscilloscope.
The actual usable memory depth should be trivial to determine. You know your timebase and your sample rate,
And where does Keysight show the samplerate? Last time I used a Keysight scope that was well hidden as well so it isn't easy to 'just do the math'. And why should I need to do the math in the first place? Setting up segmented recording without knowing length per segment and samplerate is a real PITA because you need to know the samplerate to sample a signal at a high enough rate and the length to know how long each segment is.
BTW: I find the GDS2204E a lot easier to drive compared to the Keysight scope I used to have. The buttons at the bottom and side on the GDS2204E make it much easier to setup compared to going several levels deep into sub menus on the Keysight.
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Unfortunately the actual memory depth is well hidden on Keysight scopes and probably for a good reason. Deep memory is a very nice feature to have. Sure you can make do with less but IMHO deep memory is a feature which serves so many purposes that it should have a high priority when choosing an oscilloscope.
The actual usable memory depth should be trivial to determine. You know your timebase and your sample rate,
And where does Keysight show the samplerate? Last time I used a Keysight scope that was well hidden as well so it isn't easy to 'just do the math'. And why should I need to do the math in the first place? Setting up segmented recording without knowing length per segment and samplerate is a real PITA because you need to know the samplerate to sample a signal at a high enough rate and the length to know how long each segment is.
BTW: I find the GDS2204E a lot easier to drive compared to the Keysight scope I used to have. The buttons at the bottom and side on the GDS2204E make it much easier to setup compared to going several levels deep into sub menus on the Keysight.
On the 1000X series, sample rate is shown on the right side of the screen, under Acquisition
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But once you exit that menu it is gone and thus not available when you need to know it to setup something else :palm:
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And where does Keysight show the samplerate? Last time I used a Keysight scope that was well hidden as well so it isn't easy to 'just do the math'.
That was apparently answered as I type this.
And why should I need to do the math in the first place?
You mean as opposed to having the scope tell you how much total memory is being used? Yeah, I prefer the scope tell me these things as well.
But when you're using the scope, what are you really interested in as regards the memory depth? The actual amount of memory used? Or the amount of time captured?
Setting up segmented recording without knowing length per segment and samplerate is a real PITA because you need to know the samplerate to sample a signal at a high enough rate and the length to know how long each segment is.
Yep.
In Keysight's defense, at least they're now transparent about how and when memory is reduced. From page 80 of the user manual (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/54612-97001.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/54612-97001.pdf)):
The maximum number of data points depends on these things:
• Whether acquisitions are running. When stopped, data comes from the raw
acquisition record. When running, data comes from the smaller measurement
record.
• Whether the oscilloscope was stopped using [Stop] or [Single]. Running
acquisitions split memory to provide fast waveform update rates. Single
acquisitions use full memory.
• Whether only one channel of a pair is turned on. (Channels 1 and 2 are one
pair.) Acquisition memory is divided among the channels in a pair.
• Whether reference waveforms are on. Displayed reference waveforms consume
acquisition memory.
• Whether segmented memory (available on DSOX1000-Series models) is on.
Acquisition memory is divided by the number of segments.
Of course, that doesn't make your main point any less valid in the slightest.
BTW: I find the GDS2204E a lot easier to drive compared to the Keysight scope I used to have. The buttons at the bottom and side on the GDS2204E make it much easier to setup compared to going several levels deep into sub menus on the Keysight.
I do wish I could comment on this (the GDS2204E looks like a really nice scope, and I wish someone would do a video review of it to show what it's really capable of). :(
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I do motor control, simple filters, Op Amp, mechatronics, arduino/maker kind of stuffs.
I would definitively go for a 4-channel if you intend to work on BLDC, PMSM, ACIM or any kind of brushless motors.
Having one channel per phase is a very good thing.
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But once you exit that menu it is gone and thus not available when you need to know it to setup something else :palm:
You have that back to front, the menu is always there showing the default "summary" information about the channels and the horizontal mode and sampling rate:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lZULfMz9nlI/maxresdefault.jpg
Its covered by menus when you are changing something more detailed, unlike the larger 2000/3000/4000/6000 x series which have their soft buttons along the bottom and keep the summary pane on the right visible under more conditions.
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I read that there were lags with the DS1054Z but the problem seems to have been fixed.
fixed in the sense that by enabling something like decode it's not awfully slower than it usually is? kind of. almost. it's still _very_ slow
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I do motor control, simple filters, Op Amp, mechatronics, arduino/maker kind of stuffs.
I would definitively go for a 4-channel if you intend to work on BLDC, PMSM, ACIM or any kind of brushless motors.
Also for "Arduino" - two channels isn't enough for that.
The hardware is definitely capable of 200MHz, but I suspect some software hacks will be needed to make it work properly.
And probably some hardware hacks as well.
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I do motor control, simple filters, Op Amp, mechatronics, arduino/maker kind of stuffs.
I would definitively go for a 4-channel if you intend to work on BLDC, PMSM, ACIM or any kind of brushless motors.
Also for "Arduino" - two channels isn't enough for that.
The hardware is definitely capable of 200MHz, but I suspect some software hacks will be needed to make it work properly.
And probably some hardware hacks as well.
I don't think so. Simply by changing the option links you can get ch1 fully working at 200MHz but ch2 has issues - this is clearly to do with how the firmware is configuring the hardware, so it should be possible to tweak it to set the hardware up correctly for 200mHz
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And let's not forget that the probe compensation issue was one person, my probes are fine. They do feel cheap, like $15/pair cheap, but they do the job - and the lead is silicone.
Really?
Just do measurement with next settings on warmed up scope.
ANALOG
Ch 1 Scale 100mV/, Pos 300.00mV, Coup DC, BW Limit On, Inv Off, Imp 1M Ohm
Probe 10.000000 : 1, Skew 0.0s
TRIGGER
Sweep Mode Normal, Coup DC, Noise Rej Off, HF Rej Off, Holdoff 60.0ns
Mode Edge
HORIZONTAL
Mode Normal, Ref Left, Main Scale 200.0us/, Main Delay 0.0s
ACQUISITION
Mode Averaging, # Avgs 8, Realtime On, Vectors On, Persistence Off.
Take are screen shot your compensation signal.
Give your scope rest couple hours.
Then start up again and make new screen shot after cold start.
For this money scope itself really cool, menu very fast, no lags, no delay. All functions work well.
But included probes - bull shit. I can make photo how probe's tips was scratched by their included hook tips after two week of use. Right place for this probes in trash.
As for fan, yes, it's probably noisy, I cant compare with Rigol right now, because I don't have it for side by side comparison, so I think this is compatible by noise based in my past experience, may be slightly less.
While I work with serial buses, I also do not feel any inconvenience with 1 Mpts memory in my scope, could be great if follower of "huge deep memory" and long single mode acquisition time, will explain me for what in 70/100 mHz scopes them need more. Use it as logic analyzer?
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Deep memory is handy to look at details in long captures. No need to try and figure out how to trigger on part of a signal and retry several times. Also data in one long capture can be related and two seperate captures may not be so useful. I'm currently working on an RFID system. Being able to capture the entire write transaction in great detail is very helpful.
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For this money scope itself really cool, menu very fast, no lags, no delay. All functions work well.
But included probes - bull shit. I can make photo how probe's tips was scratched by their included hook tips after two week of use. Right place for this probes in trash.
Can we get a better/much better pair of probes at a cost of under US$100?
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While I work with serial buses, I also do not feel any inconvenience with 1 Mpts memory in my scope, could be great if follower of "huge deep memory" and long single mode acquisition time, will explain me for what in 70/100 mHz scopes them need more. Use it as logic analyzer?
You have a cpu, a power supply current sense signal a program and a serial port and want to know what and where is using how much energy. So you put a bunch of printf()s to the serial port here and there and voila, can correlate on the scope screen power in and code execution.
Typical case the cpu wakes up does something and goes back to sleep, max sample rate would then be mem depth/capture time in seconds, so you'd only have 333kSa/s (or worse) max for a say 3 seconds capture which may very well be too few data points per baud to decode properly the serial data => decoding doesn't work.
Most things these days use 115200 baud by default, for that you'd better have 115200*16= 1.8 MPoints per second of capture to be safe or at least half that (8 samples per bit slot might be enough perhaps, idk).
Those infiniivisions have a hardware decoder so (I guess) none of this applies :)
But even so, 100 Kpts mem depth nowadays such as in the EDU1000X is a :--
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How long you'll be rewind all your captured data for looking for something interesting you?
I have CCTV cameras that can do 24/7 capture, but I use movement detector on it ;D Do you know why? I prefer do not spend my time when I need focusing on the problem.
Yes, I use trigger, I like trigger. It let me focusing on the problem with signal, it let me compare fast and slow changing signal at same point, and I don't want to wait 5 second to fill my scope memory, then rewind all tape, then change setup of my scope and repeat this procedure again and again till I'll not looking for something really important in the signal..
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For long time capture, I prefer to use an USB logic analyzer with protocol analyzer.
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And let's not forget that the probe compensation issue was one person, my probes are fine. They do feel cheap, like $15/pair cheap, but they do the job - and the lead is silicone.
Really?
You are right, on those settings my probes are not properly compensated. I will recompensate the two sets of probes I have and check them again in a few hours.
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How long you'll be rewind all your captured data for looking for something interesting you?
The thing is you don't look at everything but if you have enough data you can dig straight into a problem area without needing to recapture data. It simply is a much more efficient way of working.
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How long you'll be rewind all your captured data for looking for something interesting you?
The thing is you don't look at everything but if you have enough data you can dig straight into a problem area without needing to recapture data. It simply is a much more efficient way of working.
If you don't look at everything, why you need everything then? :-//
Setup right trigger, use segmented memory and etc..
Ok,... What memory use Rigol 1054z from all available memory at 1 GSa/s (I suppose It not support 2 Gsa/s)?
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How long you'll be rewind all your captured data for looking for something interesting you?
The thing is you don't look at everything but if you have enough data you can dig straight into a problem area without needing to recapture data. It simply is a much more efficient way of working.
If you don't look at everything, why you need everything then? :-//
Setup right trigger, use segmented memory and etc..
Why do things in a complicated way? Also it is not always easy/possible to redo the same test. BTW some oscilloscopes have a search function where you can let the oscilloscope look through the captured waveform to loop for anomalies.
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How long you'll be rewind all your captured data for looking for something interesting you?
The thing is you don't look at everything but if you have enough data you can dig straight into a problem area without needing to recapture data. It simply is a much more efficient way of working.
If you don't look at everything, why you need everything then? :-//
Setup right trigger, use segmented memory and etc..
Why do things in a complicated way? Also it is not always easy/possible to redo the same test. BTW some oscilloscopes have a search function where you can let the oscilloscope look through the captured waveform to loop for anomalies.
What anomalies you talking about? If you know nature of this anomalies, you'll able to setup trigger. If you don't know what you looking for, you'll seat front of th scope and discover all recorded data oneself. What is difference? 1-20 Mpts... We talking about nothing. All this 14-54 Mpts seems like toys when we talking about 1-2GSa/s scopes.
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In the past, many forum users recommended the Rigol DS1054z when somebody asked for suggestions to purchase a scope. Given that the new Keysight 1000x is out, which one is a better choice? It seems to me that the GDS-2204E is better than the DS1054Z. If 2-channel is OK for me, which do you recommend?
If we could hack the Keysight to get 200MHz and more features, shall I get the cheapest version like the 50MHz and hack to 200MHz?
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There is no hack yet to get to the full option 1000X buying the cheapest EDUX 50MHz scope. The most you can get from the EDUX 50MHz is to DSOX with 70MHz and you need to switch a couple of resistors and purchase and solder some components to the EXT INPUT section.
Also if you need WAVEGEN, you need to purchase the EDUX-G or DSOX-G model, you cannot get the WAVEGEN later if you purchase the EDUX-A or DSOX-A models, as the WAVEGEN components are not populated in the PCB. Bode Plot is only available on the G models, as you need the Wavegen functionality.
Here is the 1000X hack thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-978-keysight-1000x-hacking/msg1154923/#msg1154923 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-978-keysight-1000x-hacking/msg1154923/#msg1154923)
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There is no hack yet to get to the full option 1000X buying the cheapest EDUX 50MHz scope. The most you can get from the EDUX 50MHz is to DSOX with 70MHz and you need to switch a couple of resistors and purchase and solder some components to the EXT INPUT section.
Also if you need WAVEGEN, you need to purchase the EDUX-G or DSOX-G model, you cannot get the WAVEGEN later if you purchase the EDUX-A or DSOX-A models, as the WAVEGEN components are not populated in the PCB. Bode Plot is only available on the G models, as you need the Wavegen functionality.
Here is the 1000X hack thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-978-keysight-1000x-hacking/msg1154923/#msg1154923 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-978-keysight-1000x-hacking/msg1154923/#msg1154923)
Thanks. I have a function generator already. Is there a point to have the WAVEGEN component?
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There is no hack yet to get to the full option 1000X buying the cheapest EDUX 50MHz scope. The most you can get from the EDUX 50MHz is to DSOX with 70MHz and you need to switch a couple of resistors and purchase and solder some components to the EXT INPUT section.
Also if you need WAVEGEN, you need to purchase the EDUX-G or DSOX-G model, you cannot get the WAVEGEN later if you purchase the EDUX-A or DSOX-A models, as the WAVEGEN components are not populated in the PCB. Bode Plot is only available on the G models, as you need the Wavegen functionality.
Here is the 1000X hack thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-978-keysight-1000x-hacking/msg1154923/#msg1154923 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-978-keysight-1000x-hacking/msg1154923/#msg1154923)
Thanks. I have a function generator already. Is there a point to have the WAVEGEN component?
The only point I can think of is to use the built in Frequency response analyzer (Bode Plot) on the G models
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In the past, many forum users recommended the Rigol DS1054z when somebody asked for suggestions to purchase a scope. Given that the new Keysight 1000x is out, which one is a better choice? It seems to me that the GDS-2204E is better than the DS1054Z. If 2-channel is OK for me, which do you recommend?
The Siglent.
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The Siglent.
No way. Not unless/until they fix the (too many) bugs in the FW. I've had one sds1kx and it's a pleasure to use (not more than the keysights though) but you can't rely on something that refuses to work properly all too often. So I had to return it.
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The probes are very low quality and sensitive to temperature. So you will have to calibrate the probe over and over.
Hmm, that's weird. I wonder if good probes use an air dielectric trimmer for compensation but cheap probes use something very sensitive to temperature changes?
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The Siglent.
No way. Not unless/until they fix the (too many) bugs in the FW. I've had one sds1kx and it's a pleasure to use (not more than the keysights though) but you can't rely on something that refuses to work properly all too often. So I had to return it.
The Keysight firmware isn't much better and that's on your list, so... :-//
PS: The Rigol firmware is quite good now. :popcorn:
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The probes are very low quality and sensitive to temperature. So you will have to calibrate the probe over and over.
Hmm, that's weird. I wonder if good probes use an air dielectric trimmer for compensation but cheap probes use something very sensitive to temperature changes?
There's plenty of cheap probes that aren't affected by temperature. It looks like this is purely Keysight trying to save $0.02 on their new models.
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The Keysight firmware isn't much better and that's on your list, so... :-//
Miles better, I know for sure I use them daily.
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The Keysight firmware isn't much better and that's on your list, so... :-//
You are talking complete bollocks.
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This is my list (in order of preference):
- Keysight DSOX1102 (own)
- Micsig TO1102 / TO1104 (own)
- Rigol DS1054Z (sold because of slow UI)
- Siglent SDS1202X-E (If you need 200MHz and serial decode for under $400)
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One thing I can say for the Keysight scopes is that they enjoyable to use, and that's rare.
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How come they don't make a 4-channel version for the new 1000 x series?
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How come they don't make a 4-channel version for the new 1000 x series?
If you need 4 channels, go for Micsig or Rigol. The 1000X (DSOX) actually has 2 analog channels + 1 digital channel
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Four channels is very nice for decoding SPI. It sometimes comes to pass that CS' is raised before the last bits have shifted out (programming error) and this is easy to see when you can see all 4 signals.
My thoughts on decoding: I don't need to see very long packets of data. I can use printf() for that. What I want to see is just a few chars that are correct and whether the signals are clean. In other words, does any data pass over the link. I am not trying to decode a serial version of "War and Peace",
Four channels is a luxury. It is the primary reason I bought the DS1054Z as I already had a Tek 485 with 350 MHz bandwidth. All the other gadgets, like measurements, decoding and FFT (such as it is) are just frosting on the cake. Except for Single shot mode - that is now a requirement. I never had that before.
Probably the only other scope in that price range is the Siglent SDS1202X-E and from reading a bit about the scope, it appears there may be some glitches in the firmware. Siglent doesn't seem to have a reputation for expediting upgrades so I'm going to wait and see. I could envision buying a 200 MHz scope. There are times when bandwidth is really important. For the moment, that idea is on back burner.
DS1054Z: Yes, the fan is noisy but not all that bad compared to other equipment, including my 485. Yes, it is well understood how to fix it. The thing is, after having changed the fan, I find my scope being left on for long periods of time. The scope is on a bench on my right and slightly behind my head. I don't see it unless I go looking.
Yes, the selection encoder is twitchy as it is on many other scopes. The fix for this is also well understood. I consider the fan mod to be optional but changing out the encoder seems like a requirement. Having done this, I find the menu system to be a lot easier to use. Yes, I wiped out the warranty the second day I had the scope. So?
Whatever bugs are left in the firmware are truly obscure, except for the spelling error and I suspect this is becoming an inside joke at Rigol.
In my view, the DS1054Z owns the entry level scope market. Maybe the SDS1202X-E takes a piece, maybe not. Sure, there are better scopes but those that are markedly better tend to cost at least twice as much, sometimes 3 times. But, in the end, the scope is still an entry level model. Those scopes in the multiples of tens of thousands of dollars really are better.
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There is no plan to decode SPI. I probably choose between DS1054Z, Keysight 1000x and GDS-2204E.
I cannot stand the lag in scope. Is it true that the Keysight 1000 x is buggy? Can we get a better pair of probes for the scope at below US$100? Giving the uncertainty of hacking to max out the scope, which model do you recommend, In case of choosing the Keysight 1000x, which model do you recommend?
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There is no plan to decode SPI. I probably choose between DS1054Z, Keysight 1000x and GDS-2204E.
I cannot stand the lag in scope. Is it true that the Keysight 1000 x is buggy? Can we get a better pair of probes for the scope at below US$100? Giving the uncertainty of hacking to max out the scope, which model do you recommend, In case of choosing the Keysight 1000x, which model do you recommend?
Keysight 1000X firmware is not buggy. You can get decent pair of probes for around $20 on eBay. I recommend the DSOX1102 and not the EDUX1002. EDUX can still be hacked to behave like a DSOX (more memory, segmented memory, 70MHz...) but you need to replace 2 SMD resistors that will void the warranty and it can break the user calibration process. And if you want it to be like a DSOX including the digital channel, then you need to add some 10-15 extra components. If you are OK with 2 channels, then just the 2 resistor swap is OK.
EDUX is very limited (only 50MHz, I think it has 128Kpoints memory depth, no segmented memory)
In summary, the Keysight 1000X looks and feels like a professional scope (like a little brother of Keysight 2000X and 3000X)... same UI, same responsiveness (not the same features)
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There is no plan to decode SPI. I probably choose between DS1054Z, Keysight 1000x and GDS-2204E.
I cannot stand the lag in scope. Is it true that the Keysight 1000 x is buggy? Can we get a better pair of probes for the scope at below US$100? Giving the uncertainty of hacking to max out the scope, which model do you recommend, In case of choosing the Keysight 1000x, which model do you recommend?
Keysight 1000X firmware is not buggy. You can get decent pair of probes for around $20 on eBay. I recommend the DSOX1102 and not the EDUX1002. EDUX can still be hacked to behave like a DSOX (more memory, segmented memory, 70MHz...) but you need to replace 2 SMD resistors that will void the warranty and it can break the user calibration process. And if you want it to be like a DSOX including the digital channel, then you need to add some 10-15 extra components. If you are OK with 2 channels, then just the 2 resistor swap is OK.
EDUX is very limited (only 50MHz, I think it has 128Kpoints memory depth, no segmented memory)
In summary, the Keysight 1000X looks and feels like a professional scope (like a little brother of Keysight 2000X and 3000X)... same UI, same responsiveness (not the same features)
Thanks. So, the DSOX1102A and the DSOX1102G are the remaining choices. I have a function generator already. Trying to figure out if it is better to get the 1102G rater than the 1102A. Is the Bode plot test function in the 1102G useful? Can the 70MHz and 100MHz versions be easily hacked to allow higher bandwidth?
Is it highly recommended to get another set of probes? Is there a recommended band and model number?
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For the function generator, it depends on what you're doing. I use the built in function generator all the time for my side project stuff even though I have a stand-alone function generator on my bench because it's so convenient. But, my stand-alone FG has better specs and bandwidth. The 70 MHz and 100 MHz DSO versions are the same hardware, and Dave's hack does appear to work the same on both models. But, the hack is definitely not Keysight supported and will void your warranty. Also, we didn't test the scope to 200 MHz, just 100 MHz so it's an at-your-own-risk thing.
For probes, the oscilloscope will come with two of the passive probes, but it never hurts to have backups. I can't say much about non-Keysight probes because I don't have much experience there, but I do trust the ones that come with the 1000 X-Series.
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For probes, the oscilloscope will come with two of the passive probes, but it never hurts to have backups. I can't say much about non-Keysight probes because I don't have much experience there, but I do trust the ones that come with the 1000 X-Series.
Well, what you can say about Keysight probe?
We waiting information about issue with Keysight N2140A probes included with this scope.
I ordered Keysight N2843A 500 MHz Passive Probe for testing with this scope and will compare it with N2140A. Hope next week I'll receive my new probe and will do some measurement.
When your testing will be ready Daniel?
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There is no plan to decode SPI. I probably choose between DS1054Z, Keysight 1000x and GDS-2204E.
I cannot stand the lag in scope. Is it true that the Keysight 1000 x is buggy? Can we get a better pair of probes for the scope at below US$100? Giving the uncertainty of hacking to max out the scope, which model do you recommend, In case of choosing the Keysight 1000x, which model do you recommend?
Keysight 1000X firmware is not buggy. You can get decent pair of probes for around $20 on eBay. I recommend the DSOX1102 and not the EDUX1002. EDUX can still be hacked to behave like a DSOX (more memory, segmented memory, 70MHz...) but you need to replace 2 SMD resistors that will void the warranty and it can break the user calibration process. And if you want it to be like a DSOX including the digital channel, then you need to add some 10-15 extra components. If you are OK with 2 channels, then just the 2 resistor swap is OK.
EDUX is very limited (only 50MHz, I think it has 128Kpoints memory depth, no segmented memory)
In summary, the Keysight 1000X looks and feels like a professional scope (like a little brother of Keysight 2000X and 3000X)... same UI, same responsiveness (not the same features)
Thanks. So, the DSOX1102A and the DSOX1102G are the remaining choices. I have a function generator already. Trying to figure out if it is better to get the 1102G rater than the 1102A. Is the Bode plot test function in the 1102G useful? Can the 70MHz and 100MHz versions be easily hacked to allow higher bandwidth?
Is it highly recommended to get another set of probes? Is there a recommended band and model number?
I decided on the DSOX1102A which I recently bought, I have no regrets. The Bode Plot is mostly a gimmick the way it's implemented in the current firmware, low resolution and few steps. I guess it's fine for introducing students to the idea, but the practical uses are very limited in my opinion.
For simple waveform demonstration purposes you have the built-in training signals. For using a function generator on the bench I'd rather get dedicated one, the $200 price difference gets you a function generator with better specifications. And it's much more practical to adjust while doing measurements than going into menus on the scope to change things (dedicated knobs for everything ftw!).
The probes are just fine, nothing exceptional, but perfectly usable. If I remember correctly the scope is supplied with 2 probes, so you will want a third for the digital channel.
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For probes, the oscilloscope will come with two of the passive probes, but it never hurts to have backups. I can't say much about non-Keysight probes because I don't have much experience there, but I do trust the ones that come with the 1000 X-Series.
Well, what you can say about Keysight probe?
We waiting information about issue with Keysight N2140A probes included with this scope.
I ordered Keysight N2843A 500 MHz Passive Probe for testing with this scope and will compare it with N2140A. Hope next week I'll receive my new probe and will do some measurement.
When your testing will be ready Daniel?
The team is still working on testing it out. The preliminary results are that the variable cap appears to change with temperature, so we're working on characterizing a larger sample size in a controlled temperature environment. My earlier recommendation still stands - warm up the scope + probe together if making sensitive measurements.
The Bode Plot is mostly a gimmick the way it's implemented in the current firmware, low resolution and few steps. I guess it's fine for introducing students to the idea, but the practical uses are very limited in my opinion.
The probes are just fine, nothing exceptional, but perfectly usable. If I remember correctly the scope is supplied with 2 probes, so you will want a third for the digital channel.
It's very, very likely that the Bode plot points-per-decade setting will get increased in the next firmware update. I'm not sure if I can commit 100% to that at this point, but the overall consensus here from both planning and R&D is that it should be improved.
And yes, it comes with 2 probes, so if you want to use a passive probe with the digital channel you'll need to get a 3rd.
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Hi Daniel, what is the chance of releasing a 4-channel version of the new 1000x series? I am also considering 4-channel scopes of other brands.
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Usually I supply the circuits with a test signal from a function generator. Then, observe how the respond of one node of a circuit is like. I have both the input and output on display at the same time. In case I need to observe how the respond of other nodes, can I have the input and respond signals staying on the screen. Then, display the respond of other nodes for comparison?
Can I save the data to a computer or usb drive using the Keysight 1000 x series scopes? Do I need to buy extra cable/module?
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Usually I supply the circuits with a test signal from a function generator. Then, observe how the respond of one node of a circuit is like. I have both the input and output on display at the same time. In case I need to observe how the respond of other nodes, can I have the input and respond signals staying on the screen. Then, display the respond of other nodes for comparison?
Can I save the data to a computer or usb drive using the Keysight 1000 x series scopes? Do I need to buy extra cable/module?
You can store the test signal as a reference (you can store 2 reference signals on 1000X scopes) and display one of them at a time independent of the CH1 and CH2 inputs.
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Thanks. How come the curves are fuzzy looking?
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How come the curves are fuzzy looking?
Because it is a DSO.
Watch these:
https://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/10/eevblog-601-why-digital-oscilloscopes-appear-noisy/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/10/eevblog-601-why-digital-oscilloscopes-appear-noisy/)
https://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/27/eevblog-610-why-digital-scopes-appear-noisy-part-2/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/27/eevblog-610-why-digital-scopes-appear-noisy-part-2/)
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How come the curves are fuzzy looking?
Because it is a DSO.
Watch these:
https://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/10/eevblog-601-why-digital-oscilloscopes-appear-noisy/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/10/eevblog-601-why-digital-oscilloscopes-appear-noisy/)
https://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/27/eevblog-610-why-digital-scopes-appear-noisy-part-2/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/27/eevblog-610-why-digital-scopes-appear-noisy-part-2/)
So, the GDS-2204E and DS1054Z also have this issue? I am trying to decide among these three scopes.
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How come the curves are fuzzy looking?
Because it is a DSO.
Watch these:
https://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/10/eevblog-601-why-digital-oscilloscopes-appear-noisy/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/10/eevblog-601-why-digital-oscilloscopes-appear-noisy/)
https://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/27/eevblog-610-why-digital-scopes-appear-noisy-part-2/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/27/eevblog-610-why-digital-scopes-appear-noisy-part-2/)
So, the GDS-2204E and DS1054Z also have this issue?
It is not an issue, some noise, furriness or thick waveforms are part of life with DSO's.
Study the methods used to clean up waveforms or just know they are this way and work with it. ;)
The noise is information, some of which you may need to know, some you may not.
Experience tells us what we need to take notice of and what we can ignore.
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For the Keysight 1000 x series scopes, can I save the data to a storage device or to a computer without the need to purchase extra hardware?
In case of going for the 1000 x series rather than the GDS-2204E or DS1054Z, is it better to wait for Keysight to fix the issue with the probes first?
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For the Keysight 1000 x series scopes, can I save the data to a storage device or to a computer without the need to purchase extra hardware?
In case of going for the 1000 x series rather than the GDS-2204E or DS1054Z, is it better to wait for Keysight to fix the issue with the probes first?
If you explain what you need to accomplish (I read your post asking about the difference between an oscilloscope and a data logger) you will receive a more specific recommendation.
The probe drift is not an issue, really... if it is a problem for you, you can get decent scopes on eBay for around $30 the pair.
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For the Keysight 1000 x series scopes, can I save the data to a storage device or to a computer without the need to purchase extra hardware?
In case of going for the 1000 x series rather than the GDS-2204E or DS1054Z, is it better to wait for Keysight to fix the issue with the probes first?
The 1000X probes are a total non-issue. If you don't like them then throw them away and spend $30-$40 to buy new ones. Personally I never use the probes which come with a scope anyway. I have a whole bunch (10 or so) of identical probes from Testec.
I'm not sure what you mean by extra hardware but the GDS-2204E has an internal flash drive and the ability to safe screendumps directly to a Windows network share over the network. Otherwise I'm quite sure the 1000X can save data to a USB stick.
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I'm not sure what you mean by extra hardware but the GDS-2204E has an internal flash drive and the ability to safe screendumps directly to a Windows network share over the network. Otherwise I'm quite sure the 1000X can save data to a USB stick.
Fishandchips was asking on another thread about the difference between an oscilloscope and a data logger. I guess he/she is needing to save the captured data in excel or text format, a bunch of data, not just a screenshot. He/she indicated that a post processing is needed on the PC. That is why I asked what is the exact project description to be able to help.
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I'm not sure what you mean by extra hardware but the GDS-2204E has an internal flash drive and the ability to safe screendumps directly to a Windows network share over the network. Otherwise I'm quite sure the 1000X can save data to a USB stick.
Fishandchips was asking on another thread about the difference between an oscilloscope and a data logger. I guess he/she is needing to save the captured data in excel or text format, a bunch of data, not just a screenshot. He/she indicated that a post processing is needed on the PC. That is why I asked what is the exact project description to be able to help.
The GDS2204 can also save raw data to a PC or USB stick by using the buttons on the front panel or automatically in data logging mode. I think the 1000X should be able to save raw data onto a USB stick as well.
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The 1000X probes are a total non-issue. If you don't like them then throw them away and spend $30-$40 to buy new ones. Personally I never use the probes which come with a scope anyway. I have a whole bunch (10 or so) of identical probes from Testec.
Even if it is cheap to replace the probes, it's a matter of principle:
One is not supposed to replace the probes of a brand new oscilloscope up front.
And if decent quality probes are really so cheap, how come Keysight has choosen to deliver the 1000X with the most crappiest probes on Earth?
Current product management at Keysight in a nutshell:
Lack of quality control.
Lack of responsibility.
Lack of accountability.
Lack of respect.
No long-term vision.
Key-sightless.
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The 1000X probes are a total non-issue. If you don't like them then throw them away and spend $30-$40 to buy new ones. Personally I never use the probes which come with a scope anyway. I have a whole bunch (10 or so) of identical probes from Testec.
Even if it is cheap to replace the probes, it's a matter of principle:
One is not supposed to replace the probes of a brand new oscilloscope up front.
On a low cost scope? Ofcourse! If you buy a new car you have to pay extra for decent tyres as well otherwise you'll get the cheapest crappy tyres the dealer can get their hands on.
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The 1000X probes are a total non-issue. If you don't like them then throw them away and spend $30-$40 to buy new ones. Personally I never use the probes which come with a scope anyway. I have a whole bunch (10 or so) of identical probes from Testec.
Even if it is cheap to replace the probes, it's a matter of principle:
One is not supposed to replace the probes of a brand new oscilloscope up front.
And if decent quality probes are really so cheap, how come Keysight has choosen to deliver the 1000X with the most crappiest probes on Earth?
Current product management at Keysight in a nutshell:
Lack of quality control.
Lack of responsibility.
Lack of accountability.
Lack of respect.
No long-term vision.
Key-sightless.
Do you own any Keysight scope? You seems to be more concerned than the actual owners of 1000X scopes.
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The 1000X probes are a total non-issue. If you don't like them then throw them away and spend $30-$40 to buy new ones. Personally I never use the probes which come with a scope anyway. I have a whole bunch (10 or so) of identical probes from Testec.
Even if it is cheap to replace the probes, it's a matter of principle:
One is not supposed to replace the probes of a brand new oscilloscope up front.
On a low cost scope? Ofcourse! If you buy a new car you have to pay extra for decent tyres as well otherwise you'll get the cheapest crappy tyres the dealer can get their hands on.
We are talking about Keysight here. An A-brand if I recall correctly.
Note that Rigol and Siglent probes are much better quality!
Your statement about cars is incorrect.
I happen to know from a friend that a Dacia Duster SUV comes standard with high quality Continental tyres.
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Have you contacted Keysight directly about the problem? Perhaps ask them to replace your probes. Some people don't seem to notice the issue so they might not all be as bad as yours.
The 1000X probes are a total non-issue. If you don't like them then throw them away and spend $30-$40 to buy new ones. Personally I never use the probes which come with a scope anyway. I have a whole bunch (10 or so) of identical probes from Testec.
Even if it is cheap to replace the probes, it's a matter of principle:
One is not supposed to replace the probes of a brand new oscilloscope up front.
And if decent quality probes are really so cheap, how come Keysight has choosen to deliver the 1000X with the most crappiest probes on Earth?
Current product management at Keysight in a nutshell:
Lack of quality control.
Lack of responsibility.
Lack of accountability.
Lack of respect.
No long-term vision.
Key-sightless.
-
I also do not understand why I should spend extra money for additional set of probes when I buy Brand Name scope. :-//
When I bought my Fluke DDMs I alway have excellent leads included and use it many years.
And I do not need go to the shop for new one leads for my new one DMM's that cost hundreds USD.
Probably nctnico love cheap Chinese tools and think that all included accessories should be relapsed after new tool been unpackaged (including power cord) :-//
I'm not.
And I do not want to warm up my scope 30 minutes before measurement. I keep it under stable room temperature and it should work after power on with no issue.
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I also do not understand why I should spend extra money for additional set of probes when I buy Brand Name scope. :-//
When I bought my Fluke DDMs I alway have excellent leads included and use it many years.
And I do not need go to the shop for new one leads for my new one DMM's that cost hundreds USD.
Probably nctnico love cheap Chinese tools and think that all included accessories should be relapsed after new tool been unpackaged (including power cord) :-//
I'm not.
And I do not want to warm up my scope 30 minutes before measurement. I keep it under stable room temperature and it should work after power on with no issue.
Sidenote: All instruments need to warm up because they get warm internally which causes drift. There is no way around that and usually it takes 15 to 30 minutes on an oscilloscope. Some equipment may even require a 12 hours warm up period.
You have to have realistic expectations and many acessoires which come with equipment are there to get started but they are definitely not the highest end/most useful ones. You are not going to get $500 worth of probes together with a $600 oscilloscope. Same with DMMs. Keysight and Fluke may throw in a decent pair of probes but if you want better probes you have to buy them seperately. I'm also not using the probes which came with most of the DMMs I bought (including the ones which came with my Keysight 34461) because I have better ones. Also the 34461 didn't come with Kelvin probes for 4 wire resistance measurements so I needed to buy that seperately.
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To come back to the original question:
Compared with other low-cost scopes, the Keysight 1000 X series is more expensive. :P
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I also do not understand why I should spend extra money for additional set of probes when I buy Brand Name scope. :-//
When I bought my Fluke DDMs I alway have excellent leads included and use it many years.
And I do not need go to the shop for new one leads for my new one DMM's that cost hundreds USD.
Probably nctnico love cheap Chinese tools and think that all included accessories should be relapsed after new tool been unpackaged (including power cord) :-//
I'm not.
And I do not want to warm up my scope 30 minutes before measurement. I keep it under stable room temperature and it should work after power on with no issue.
Sidenote: All instruments need to warm up because they get warm internally which causes drift. There is no way around that and usually it takes 15 to 30 minutes on an oscilloscope. Some equipment may even require a 12 hours warm up period.
You have to have realistic expectations and many acessoires which come with equipment are there to get started but they are definitely not the highest end/most useful ones. You are not going to get $500 worth of probes together with a $600 oscilloscope. Same with DMMs. Keysight and Fluke may throw in a decent pair of probes but if you want better probes you have to buy them seperately. I'm also not using the probes which came with most of the DMMs I bought (including the ones which came with my Keysight 34461) because I have better ones. Also the 34461 didn't come with Kelvin probes for 4 wire resistance measurements so I needed to buy that seperately.
Really?
For calibration or for daily use? For calibration - sure. For daily use - not!
If your tools highly dependent from internal temperature changing that is mean that your tools has been poor projected.
What you mean $ 500 passive probes?
I bought $ 200 probes, have you seen my report (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/msg1220152/#msg1220152)?
Relax please
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I also do not understand why I should spend extra money for additional set of probes when I buy Brand Name scope. :-//
When I bought my Fluke DDMs I alway have excellent leads included and use it many years.
And I do not need go to the shop for new one leads for my new one DMM's that cost hundreds USD.
Probably nctnico love cheap Chinese tools and think that all included accessories should be relapsed after new tool been unpackaged (including power cord) :-//
I'm not.
And I do not want to warm up my scope 30 minutes before measurement. I keep it under stable room temperature and it should work after power on with no issue.
Sidenote: All instruments need to warm up because they get warm internally which causes drift. There is no way around that and usually it takes 15 to 30 minutes on an oscilloscope. Some equipment may even require a 12 hours warm up period.
You have to have realistic expectations and many acessoires which come with equipment are there to get started but they are definitely not the highest end/most useful ones. You are not going to get $500 worth of probes together with a $600 oscilloscope. Same with DMMs. Keysight and Fluke may throw in a decent pair of probes but if you want better probes you have to buy them seperately. I'm also not using the probes which came with most of the DMMs I bought (including the ones which came with my Keysight 34461) because I have better ones. Also the 34461 didn't come with Kelvin probes for 4 wire resistance measurements so I needed to buy that seperately.
Really?
For calibration or for daily use? For calibration - sure. For daily use - not!
If your tools highly dependent from internal temperature changing that is mean that your tools has been poor projected.
What you mean $ 500 passive probes?
I bought $ 200 probes, have you seen my report (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/msg1220152/#msg1220152)?
Relax please
If you think waiting for calibration is OK, why do you think waiting to take measurements is not OK? What is the difference? The instrument, to operate at specifications level, needs a warmup period. But the instrument is yours, use it as you wish.
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Lack of quality control.
Lack of responsibility.
Lack of accountability.
Lack of respect.
No long-term vision.
Key-sightless.
Rigol lawyers will be in contact with you shortly for stealing attributes that belong to their products.
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I also do not understand why I should spend extra money for additional set of probes when I buy Brand Name scope. :-//
When I bought my Fluke DDMs I alway have excellent leads included and use it many years.
And I do not need go to the shop for new one leads for my new one DMM's that cost hundreds USD.
Probably nctnico love cheap Chinese tools and think that all included accessories should be relapsed after new tool been unpackaged (including power cord) :-//
I'm not.
And I do not want to warm up my scope 30 minutes before measurement. I keep it under stable room temperature and it should work after power on with no issue.
Sidenote: All instruments need to warm up because they get warm internally which causes drift. There is no way around that and usually it takes 15 to 30 minutes on an oscilloscope. Some equipment may even require a 12 hours warm up period.
You have to have realistic expectations and many acessoires which come with equipment are there to get started but they are definitely not the highest end/most useful ones. You are not going to get $500 worth of probes together with a $600 oscilloscope. Same with DMMs. Keysight and Fluke may throw in a decent pair of probes but if you want better probes you have to buy them seperately. I'm also not using the probes which came with most of the DMMs I bought (including the ones which came with my Keysight 34461) because I have better ones. Also the 34461 didn't come with Kelvin probes for 4 wire resistance measurements so I needed to buy that seperately.
Really?
For calibration or for daily use? For calibration - sure. For daily use - not!
If your tools highly dependent from internal temperature changing that is mean that your tools has been poor projected.
What you mean $ 500 passive probes?
I bought $ 200 probes, have you seen my report (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/msg1220152/#msg1220152)?
Relax please
If you think waiting for calibration is OK, why do you think waiting to take measurements is not OK? What is the difference? The instrument, to operate at specifications level, needs a warmup period. But the instrument is yours, use it as you wish.
Why you perform calibration for your passive probes, mm..?
Why my N2843A calibration solid like are rock and N2140A not?
What reason of your question?
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Current product management at Keysight in a nutshell:
Lack of quality control.
Lack of responsibility.
Lack of accountability.
Lack of respect.
No long-term vision.
Key-sightless.
Rigol lawyers will be in contact with you shortly for stealing attributes that belong to their products.
Correction: Keysight should pay licensing fees to use attributes that Rigol and Siglent are no longer using already for a long time, and therefore have decided to license out.
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[...]
:=\
-
Current product management at Keysight in a nutshell:
Lack of quality control.
Lack of responsibility.
Lack of accountability.
Lack of respect.
No long-term vision.
Key-sightless.
Rigol lawyers will be in contact with you shortly for stealing attributes that belong to their products.
Correction: Keysight should pay licensing fees to use attributes that Rigol and Siglent are no longer using already for a long time, and therefore have decided to license out.
Yes, attributes that they stole from big scope manufacturers to start their business...
-
Current product management at Keysight in a nutshell:
Lack of quality control.
Lack of responsibility.
Lack of accountability.
Lack of respect.
No long-term vision.
Key-sightless.
Rigol lawyers will be in contact with you shortly for stealing attributes that belong to their products.
Correction: Keysight should pay licensing fees to use attributes that Rigol and Siglent are no longer using already for a long time, and therefore have decided to license out.
Did you know that Rigol started as a contract manufacturer for low end Agilent/Keysight scopes?
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Please stick with the main subject: Keysight 1000X series and the reported quality issues on that model.
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Please stick with the main subject: Keysight 1000X series and the reported quality issues on that model.
You didn't answer my question - have you contacted Keysight directly about this problem and asked for a set of replacement probes?
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Please stick with the main subject: Keysight 1000X series and the reported quality issues on that model.
You didn't answer my question - have you contacted Keysight directly about this problem and asked for a set of replacement probes?
I don't think he even owns the 1000X
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Please stick with the main subject: Keysight 1000X series and the reported quality issues on that model.
You didn't answer my question - have you contacted Keysight directly about this problem and asked for a set of replacement probes?
Replacement to what? If you following thread about probes issue, it still under Keysight investigation...
Have you any experience (been employment) with company like this one? Probably no.
Simple issue be stuck on bureaucracy between support team and marketing team.
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Please stick with the main subject: Keysight 1000X series and the reported quality issues on that model.
You didn't answer my question - have you contacted Keysight directly about this problem and asked for a set of replacement probes?
Replacement to what? If you following thread about probes issue, it still under Keysight investigation...
Have you any experience (been employment) with company like this one? Probably no
TheSteve was asking pascal_sweden... You should contact keysight and request new probes, as no one else seems to have the same problem or not as bad as yours
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Please stick with the main subject: Keysight 1000X series and the reported quality issues on that model.
You didn't answer my question - have you contacted Keysight directly about this problem and asked for a set of replacement probes?
Replacement to what? If you following thread about probes issue, it still under Keysight investigation...
Have you any experience (been employment) with company like this one? Probably no
TheSteve was asking pascal_sweden... You should contact keysight and request new probes, as no one else seems to have the same problem or not as bad as yours
You should bought DSOX series scope instead EDUX and try to hack it up to DSOX, right?
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I am just looking for a general scope for use in projects in electronic/mechanical/control/mechatronic engineering at university level. Possible uses include checking the response of filter and sensor circuits, checking the outputs of motor controllers to see what signals are sent to the motors, checking if the receiver of a remote controller is receiving the same signals as signals sent from the sender, measuring the power consumption and current of the motors, etc.
I just out a few labs in several universities. It seems that 300MHz is the popular bandwidth. The ability to save the data either via a memory card inserted into the scope or via connection to a PC is important as I need to do post-processing to analyze the data and for plotting for reports.
Is it better to get 300MHz just in case? After hacking, what is the max bandwidth for the Rigol DZ1054Z?
Do the other two scopes have problem with discontinuity like the one described at 5:53 in the video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwZTZzYVzQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwZTZzYVzQ)
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After hacking, what is the max bandwidth for the Rigol DZ1054Z?
I think it is around 130MHz. If you need 300MHz, you are talking about mid range scopes ($3-6K), not the low cost ones.
Do the other two scopes have problem with discontinuity like the one described at 5:53 in the video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwZTZzYVzQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwZTZzYVzQ)
The other scopes do not have a Wave Generator, so the problem you are asking does not apply. The keysight 1000X G models are the only ones with Wave Generator.
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Thanks. What is around 130MHz? Do you mean for things that I want to do, a scope with a bandwidth of 130MHz should be sufficient?
I have a function generator. If I get the keysight scope, I may get the one with a Wave Generator if the educational training materials require it. So, that discontinuity problem is caused by the built-in Wave Generator?
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Thanks. What is around 130MHz? Do you mean for things that I want to do, a scope with a bandwidth of 130MHz should be sufficient?
I have a function generator. If I get the keysight scope, I may get the one with a Wave Generator if the educational training materials require it. So, that discontinuity problem is caused by the built-in Wave Generator?
I think the discontinuity (actually is the frequency step granularity, but you have a frequency fine setting that allows you to work in smaller steps) is not an issue or problem, it is the way you set the frequency of the wave generator. It makes a jump at 1 KHz (and probably at different points as well) to make the data entry faster. Adding the capability to enter directly the frequency is a feature Keysight might consider in future firmware upgrades.
If you get the keysight scope, get one with the wavegen as it will give you FRA (Frequency Response Analysis) tool and the education training signals.
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I just out a few labs in several universities. It seems that 300MHz is the popular bandwidth. The ability to save the data either via a memory card inserted into the scope or via connection to a PC is important as I need to do post-processing to analyze the data and for plotting for reports.
300MHz is about as high as you can go with normal probes. Universities get massive discounts, I don't think I'd want to buy a 300MHz 'scope with my own money though.
Is it better to get 300MHz just in case? After hacking, what is the max bandwidth for the Rigol DZ1054Z?
You don't need anything like 300Mhz for the things you've mentioned.
A Rigol's bandwidth after hacking is 100MHz (although it's more like 130MHz in practice). Plenty for what you want to do.
Do the other two scopes have problem with discontinuity like the one described at 5:53 in the video?
They don't have a built-in function generator, so, "no". :-)
(nb. This also means they don't do bode plots)
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(nb. This also means they don't do bode plots)
I would like to add that not all the scopes with built-in function generator does bode plot, not even keysight 2000X with function generator does bode plot currently, only 1000X AFAIK
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The 1000X probes are a total non-issue. If you don't like them then throw them away and spend $30-$40 to buy new ones. Personally I never use the probes which come with a scope anyway. I have a whole bunch (10 or so) of identical probes from Testec.
Even if it is cheap to replace the probes, it's a matter of principle:
One is not supposed to replace the probes of a brand new oscilloscope up front.
And if decent quality probes are really so cheap, how come Keysight has choosen to deliver the 1000X with the most crappiest probes on Earth?
Current product management at Keysight in a nutshell:
Lack of quality control.
Lack of responsibility.
Lack of accountability.
Lack of respect.
No long-term vision.
Key-sightless.
Do you own any Keysight scope? You seems to be more concerned than the actual owners of 1000X scopes.
What you are basically hearing is the whining of a Keysight hater. A fan boy of brands, which by most measures, are considered inferior by the majority of professional users. Take his uninformed, terribly biased criticism with an enormous pinch of salt.
The overarching advantage of Keysight are things not readily expressed in spec sheets. Responsiveness of the UI is second to none in this price range (and at much higher price points as well), construction as experienced through things like quality rotary encoders, and support is excellent as well, should you ever need it. If you're going to get something other than the Keysight, do yourself a favor and DO NOT try it out. You'll remain forever frustrated with the overall unpolished nature of the scopes competing in this range.
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I own the DSOX1102G (100MHz wis the wave gen). No issues whatsoever with probe compensation drifting in regular day to day use. This is an overblown and/or isolated issue. I also have plenty of other quality Tek probes to choose from, but have not felt the need.
Very fast, responsive UI.
Excellent firmware.
Excellent help system.
Built in training signals are helpful to learn the scope.
No crashes.
No bugs.
Built in wave gen is very useful and has built in triggering.
I wish there was a faster way to choose the trigger source. I am used to switches on analog scopes.
As mentioned Bode plot needs improvement.
MegaZoom is very nice and easy to use.
My fan is pretty darned quiet.
Excellent customer service with Daniel around here to help solve issues.
Smells like that new electronics smell. Like it *really* smells like that new electronics smell.
Wish it had some sort of probe holder clips rather than a handle, would be more useful.
Overall winner, winner, chicken dinner.
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I own the DSOX1102G (100MHz wis the wave gen). No issues whatsoever with probe compensation drifting in regular day to day use. This is an overblown and/or isolated issue. I also have plenty of other quality Tek probes to choose from, but have not felt the need.
"Happy Keysight user that has no clue whatsoever about the inferior quality of the probes that are delivered with the 1000X series".
This is definitely not an overblown and/or isolated issue!
Did you look at the pictures of the probes inside?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/msg1220323/#msg1220323 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/msg1220323/#msg1220323)
Imagine that all the signal measurements in your fancy lab experiments on your new smelling scope have to pass through that ugly wire!
These pictures confirm black on white, that Keysight has choosen to deliver the 1000X with the most crappiest probes on Earth.
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The overarching advantage of Keysight are things not readily expressed in spec sheets. Responsiveness of the UI is second to none in this price range (and at much higher price points as well), construction as experienced through things like quality rotary encoders, and support is excellent as well, should you ever need it. If you're going to get something other than the Keysight, do yourself a favor and DO NOT try it out. You'll remain forever frustrated with the overall unpolished nature of the scopes competing in this range.
Now you are sugar coating things. I sold my Agilent DSO7104A and kept the GW Instek GDS2204E because amongst other things the latter is easier to use.
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I own the DSOX1102G (100MHz wis the wave gen). No issues whatsoever with probe compensation drifting in regular day to day use. This is an overblown and/or isolated issue. I also have plenty of other quality Tek probes to choose from, but have not felt the need.
"Happy Keysight user that has no clue whatsoever about the inferior quality of the probes that are delivered with the 1000X series".
..so get some other probes. Cheap scopes are always shipped with cheap probes. You're not forced to use them. I've almost never used a scope with the probes it came with.
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"Happy Keysight user that has no clue whatsoever about the inferior quality of the probes that are delivered with the 1000X series".
Do you really believe that is only the probes?
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Do you really believe that is only the probes?
You are probably right! Most likely they have cut corners on the hardware inside as well.
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I am just looking for a general scope for use in projects in electronic/mechanical/control/mechatronic engineering at university level. Possible uses include checking the response of filter and sensor circuits, checking the outputs of motor controllers to see what signals are sent to the motors, checking if the receiver of a remote controller is receiving the same signals as signals sent from the sender, measuring the power consumption and current of the motors, etc.
I just out a few labs in several universities. It seems that 300MHz is the popular bandwidth. The ability to save the data either via a memory card inserted into the scope or via connection to a PC is important as I need to do post-processing to analyze the data and for plotting for reports.
Is it better to get 300MHz just in case? After hacking, what is the max bandwidth for the Rigol DZ1054Z?
Do the other two scopes have problem with discontinuity like the one described at 5:53 in the video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwZTZzYVzQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwZTZzYVzQ)
Regardless to the number of channels and cost, how do you rank the Keysight DSOX1102G 100 MHz, GW Instek GDS-2204E and the Rigol DS1054Z (I will probably hack it) in order of suitability to the usages described above? Of course, being able to measure things accurately is the 1st priority. This is followed by nice and smooth GUI (don't like the lags in responsiveness). The ability to store data is also important.
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Has anyone apart from pascal_sweden had problems with the Keysight probes? Mine seem fine. It might seem like a common issue, but you'll find the hundreds of comments about it are from just one person.
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"Happy Keysight user that has no clue whatsoever about the inferior quality of the probes that are delivered with the 1000X series".
Do you really believe that is only the probes?
Any evidence to the contrary?
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Regardless to the number of channels and cost
"Regardless of cost"? How does that work?
Do you also compare things like cars on that basis?
, how do you rank the Keysight DSOX1102G 100 MHz, GW Instek GDS-2204E and the Rigol DS1054Z (I will probably hack it) in order of suitability to the usages described above?
All will do it...
Of course, being able to measure things accurately is the 1st priority. This is followed by nice and smooth GUI (don't like the lags in responsiveness). The ability to store data is also important.
...but the Keysight/Instek will cost you double/triple money to get a bit better UI response.
Your call.
(And if cost isn't an issue, why stop there? Why are you looking at toy oscilloscopes like these?)
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Regardless to the number of channels and cost, how do you rank the Keysight DSOX1102G 100 MHz, GW Instek GDS-2204E and the Rigol DS1054Z (I will probably hack it) in order of suitability to the usages described above?
If you disregard the items where the KeySight is at a disadvantage (namely channels and cost), the KeySight -- surprise! -- looks quite good in this comparison. ;)
It seems like you are already "emotionally invested" in the KeySight. So if what you expect from this thread is confirmation that buying the KeySight is fine, then by all means go ahead and buy it. It is a nice scope, and you have just redefined your criteria to exclude the items that might raise doubts.
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Regardless to the number of channels and cost, how do you rank the Keysight DSOX1102G 100 MHz, GW Instek GDS-2204E and the Rigol DS1054Z (I will probably hack it) in order of suitability to the usages described above?
If you disregard the items where the KeySight is at a disadvantage (namely channels and cost), the KeySight -- surprise! -- looks quite good in this comparison. ;)
It seems like you are already "emotionally invested" in the KeySight. So if what you expect from this thread is confirmation that buying the KeySight is fine, then by all means go ahead and buy it. It is a nice scope, and you have just redefined your criteria to exclude the items that might raise doubts.
The "emotional investment" is clearly on the side of the perpetual Keysight bashers. No evidence needed, they "just know" that terrible compromises have been made at the board level, for sure. We don't need any evidence.Yes, Keysight gear will always be at a premium over its Chinese knockoff competitors, like any company that provides decent support and a good user experience.
There's really no difference between this and the angry defenders of bargain priced cell phones or cheap cars. The value segment has its merits, but I've become intolerant of crap companies and their ameteur hour support systems and attention to things not appearing on spec sheets, like the UI experience.
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Regardless to the number of channels and cost, how do you rank the Keysight DSOX1102G 100 MHz, GW Instek GDS-2204E and the Rigol DS1054Z (I will probably hack it) in order of suitability to the usages described above? Of course, being able to measure things accurately is the 1st priority. This is followed by nice and smooth GUI (don't like the lags in responsiveness). The ability to store data is also important.
Can you elaborate on what kind of data you want to store and how you want to process it? I think your first concern should be memory depth. How much data do you need to collect? Then come things like connectivity (LAN, USB or local storage) and the transfer speed you need.
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If you disregard the items where the KeySight is at a disadvantage (namely channels and cost), the KeySight -- surprise! -- looks quite good in this comparison. ;)
It seems like you are already "emotionally invested" in the KeySight. So if what you expect from this thread is confirmation that buying the KeySight is fine, then by all means go ahead and buy it. It is a nice scope, and you have just redefined your criteria to exclude the items that might raise doubts.
The "emotional investment" is clearly on the side of the perpetual Keysight bashers. [...]
Have you actually read my post, GlowingGhoul? It was not that long...
I found it a bit amusing that fishandchips, in his most recent post, defined a set of assessment criteria which seem to specifically exclude those areas where competing scopes have advantages. Hence, my slightly tongue-in-cheek comment. But I actually assume that fishandchips has aready made up his mind -- he seems to value the usability higher than those other aspects, hence favors the Keysight. (Which clearly has advantages in usability, UI responsiveness etc.)
No "bashing" in that comment; and I do not want to be associated with any "perpetual Keysight bashers", thank you very much.
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It seems like you are already "emotionally invested" in the KeySight. So if what you expect from this thread is confirmation that buying the KeySight is fine, then by all means go ahead and buy it. It is a nice scope.
The "emotional investment" is clearly on the side of the perpetual Keysight bashers.
.... I've become intolerant of crap companies and their ameteur hour support systems and attention to things not appearing on spec sheets, like the UI experience.
You didn't actually read the post you quoted before going all ballistic, did you? :palm:
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Topicstarter, just go to Amazone and buy any scope that like you.... one month you thinking....
Ready to wait tons updates and still have bugs? Buy Chinese scope.
Just want to use it and enjoy it? Buy Keysight
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I own the DSOX1102G (100MHz wis the wave gen). No issues whatsoever with probe compensation drifting in regular day to day use. This is an overblown and/or isolated issue. I also have plenty of other quality Tek probes to choose from, but have not felt the need.
"Happy Keysight user that has no clue whatsoever about the inferior quality of the probes that are delivered with the 1000X series".
Wow! Ad hominem attacks calling me clueless? You, sir, have likely never even touched one of these scopes. You do not own one. You seem to have some vendetta against Keysight. That is your prerogative. But do not insult me and claim to have any clue about my knowledge about the quality of a product I actually own and use.
Please state for the record if you own one of these scopes. You have been avoiding this question for five pages of posts.
Please state for the record if you personally have ever even touched one of these 1000 series scopes. All you have done is linked other threads.
If you do not answer these questions I can't see how anyone can take you seriously with hearsay "evidence." Your relevance to the conversation is pretty much nil if you have no experience with the product. I think it is clear to everyone else that someone who does not own and use a product must be clueless about that product. I *am* likely clueless about whatever brand of cheap scope of which you are an acolyte (unless it is Tek).
I get that fanbois will be fanbois, but there is no need to insult people here. Take that to other forums. I understand the quality of the probes. As I stated previously I own multiple high quality Tek probes. Do I think the probes that came with the scope are high quality? No. They are adequate quality for most uses. Would I take free high end replacement probes from Keysight? Who wouldn't. I understand that scopes that are less than a grand or two USD are low end scopes. I don't expect perfection from them.
I stated that in day to day measurements I am not having any issues with drift of the probe compensation. That is true. Perhaps my lab has more stable temperature than yours. Perhaps you technique is somehow flawed. Perhaps mine is.
But take your insults elsewhere, and please disclaim your comments with your lack experience with the product in question. This is a very common issue online, where people come in a repeat things they hear about brand X or product Y, often lacking a grasp of those products due to an utter lack of experience with said product. These "me too" parrot like postings are not useful to anyone. To your credit you did link the source of you parrot posting in at least one case. Please don't claim to be an authority on a product you have likely never touched. I own this scope. I use it most days. I own other scopes as well, and pick the right scope for the job to the best of my ability.
I am not a Keysight fanboy. I own two Keysight products (lots of older HP stuff). The scope is very good for the money. It is a joy to use for anyone coming from zero-lag analog scopes. The Rigols and such are just too sluggish. They drive me nuts. If you are used to slow electronics, where turning a knob has a delay before you see anything then it might be fine for you. If you are the kind of person who likes how there is a huge delay before it takes a picture when you press the button on your camera phone then you may like it. If you are used to the instant picture when you press the button like on a pro SLR then get the Keysight. Note: I have not used a Rigol every day, only demoed one for a couple of days. So you must discount my opinions on Rigol.
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Topicstarter, just go to Amazone and buy any scope that like you.... one month you thinking....
Ready to wait tons updates and still have bugs? Buy Chinese scope.
Just want to use it and enjoy it? Buy Keysight
...and pay twice (or three times) the price. For less channels.
nb. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, I'm just pointing out the elephant in the room.
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Topicstarter, just go to Amazone and buy any scope that like you.... one month you thinking....
Ready to wait tons updates and still have bugs? Buy Chinese scope.
Just want to use it and enjoy it? Buy Keysight
...and pay twice (or three times) the price. For less channels.
nb. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, I'm just pointing out the elephant in the room.
If he considering two channels scope, that this is enough for him task. If him need more analog channels simultaneously, that Keysight out of game for this budget
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The lack of four channels can be an issue. I just cascade to other scopes to see a lot of waveforms at once.
Note that if you get the wave gen option then you can trigger off the wave gen internally and still see the external trigger "pseudo-channel" along with the other two real channels. So you do not have to use up the trigger channel just to get a sync to your waveform source.
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The lack of four channels can be an issue. I just cascade to other scopes to see a lot of waveforms at once.
Two Keysights is better than one! You can never have enough Keysights! :popcorn:
(and if you have no bread you can simply eat cake instead!)
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Please state for the record if you own one of these scopes. You have been avoiding this question for five pages of posts.
Please state for the record if you personally have ever even touched one of these 1000 series scopes. All you have done is linked other threads.
I don't own a Keysight 1000X scope, and neither have touched it. I have worked over many years with many different scopes though at the university (both analog and digital, Keysight, Tektronix, Hameg, Rigol, etc.).
I don't see the need for owning one personally, given the detailed pictures available of the probe insights, and the detailed reports on the drift issue.
Why I am pushing so hard for getting a resolution on this probe compensation drift issue:
The issue has been reported since April 28th, and Keysight has even acknowledged that they managed to reproduce the issue. But after they haven't provided any updates. We are now more than 6 weeks further, and still no resolution. It almost looks like they have dropped the investigation.
You Keysight fanboys keep bragging about the excellent support from Keysight. Where is that excellent support from your favorite A-brand now? They haven't put any focus on this issue to come up with a resolution, after they acknowledged the issue. More than 6 weeks lead-times is not what one expects from an A-brand. Or what do you Keysight fanboys understand under "good support from Keysight"?
Please elaborate on this!
Pictures have been provided about concerns of the quality of the probe. Keysight has deliberately choosen not to answer on this. They are just ignoring the question.
Now a question back to you: Have you looked at the pictures of the probe insights? Really? Hard to believe! Low quality probe is even an understatement if you look at the picture.
Both Keysight and Keysight fanboys are all hypocrites IMO. Living in their own world, and denying that it is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE to deliver such a crappy probes. Even a 10 year old kid would agree on that.
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Both Keysight and Keysight fanboys are all hypocrites IMO. Living in their own world, and denying that it is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE to deliver such a crappy probes. Even a 10 year old kid would agree on that.
FFS get over it. It's only the probe, and it's only 100MHz.
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Both Keysight and Keysight fanboys are all hypocrites IMO. Living in their own world, and denying that it is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE to deliver such a crappy probes. Even a 10 year old kid would agree on that.
Perhaps your time is better spend with banging on Rigol's and Siglent's doors: their firmware doesn't even work right especially on new products. A probe is easy to replace but buggy firmware is a far more severe problem.
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Do I get a free pair of nice probes if I jump on the hate-train? If so..
It's also a complete non-issue for me. And I do own the scope!
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Regardless to the number of channels and cost
"Regardless of cost"? How does that work?
Do you also compare things like cars on that basis?
, how do you rank the Keysight DSOX1102G 100 MHz, GW Instek GDS-2204E and the Rigol DS1054Z (I will probably hack it) in order of suitability to the usages described above?
All will do it...
Of course, being able to measure things accurately is the 1st priority. This is followed by nice and smooth GUI (don't like the lags in responsiveness). The ability to store data is also important.
...but the Keysight/Instek will cost you double/triple money to get a bit better UI response.
Your call.
(And if cost isn't an issue, why stop there? Why are you looking at toy oscilloscopes like these?)
Sorry for not being clear. I think the cost of the Keysight and Instek scopes I mentioned are similar while the Rigol one is about 1/3 the price. Certainly cannot afford to pay over $2500.
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If you disregard the items where the KeySight is at a disadvantage (namely channels and cost), the KeySight -- surprise! -- looks quite good in this comparison. ;)
It seems like you are already "emotionally invested" in the KeySight. So if what you expect from this thread is confirmation that buying the KeySight is fine, then by all means go ahead and buy it. It is a nice scope, and you have just redefined your criteria to exclude the items that might raise doubts.
The "emotional investment" is clearly on the side of the perpetual Keysight bashers. [...]
Have you actually read my post, GlowingGhoul? It was not that long...
I found it a bit amusing that fishandchips, in his most recent post, defined a set of assessment criteria which seem to specifically exclude those areas where competing scopes have advantages. Hence, my slightly tongue-in-cheek comment. But I actually assume that fishandchips has aready made up his mind -- he seems to value the usability higher than those other aspects, hence favors the Keysight. (Which clearly has advantages in usability, UI responsiveness etc.)
No "bashing" in that comment; and I do not want to be associated with any "perpetual Keysight bashers", thank you very much.
No. I am open to all three scopes. From what I read, the Instek seems to be better than the Rigol. Not sure how the Keysight DSOX1102G 100 MHz and the GW Instek GDS-2204E are compared. Perhaps the Keysight scope has only two channels but better GUI while the Instek scope has four channels but the GUI is not as responsible and nice looking as the Keysight scope?
Can anybody who has used both the Keysight DSOX1102G 100 MHz and the GW Instek GDS-2204E please do a comparison?
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If you are willing to spend ~€1300 on the Instek, there are many options for you.
I'm certain Keysight would accept that offer for their DSOX2024A http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-DSOX2024A-Oscilloscope-4-channel-200MHz-Agilent-/172727327642 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-DSOX2024A-Oscilloscope-4-channel-200MHz-Agilent-/172727327642)
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The Instek GDS-2204E offers more features and deeper memory. It sits at a higher level than the Keysight 1000X which is after all is an entry level scope (a quick user interface only goes so far).
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Do I get a free pair of nice probes if I jump on the hate-train? If so..
It's also a complete non-issue for me. And I do own the scope!
But Pascal_Sweden and his ilk thinks you're an idiot, who doesn't know what's good for you, lol! Doesn't that keep you up at night?
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Do I get a free pair of nice probes if I jump on the hate-train? If so..
It's also a complete non-issue for me. And I do own the scope!
But Pascal_Sweden and his ilk thinks you're an idiot, who doesn't know what's good for you, lol! Doesn't that keep you up at night?
Of course I'm disappointed the probes don't match the quality of the scope itself, but I have a bunch already - and they are not that bad. They just drift a bit more than my other ones.
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The Instek GDS-2204E offers more features and deeper memory. It sits at a higher level than the Keysight 1000X which is after all is an entry level scope (a quick user interface only goes so far).
Looking at the long list of glitches, incorrect specifications, crappy customer service, and the palpable "sigh of relief" each time Instek releases a new version of the firmware, obviously knowing that's no sure thing, leads anyone making a purchase decision to ask if there time is worth slogging through this, along with wondering how long Instek will continue to put effort into supporting this scope.
Again, if you're counting pennies, it's nice to have a tool that can get the job done in exchange for putting up with loads of bullshit, minor and major. For those whose time has value, they would be better off looking at a professional piece of equipment. The pain of the cost premium will fade, while the stench of cheapness will never dissipate.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/)
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The Instek GDS-2204E offers more features and deeper memory. It sits at a higher level than the Keysight 1000X which is after all is an entry level scope (a quick user interface only goes so far).
Looking at the long list of glitches, incorrect specifications, crappy customer service, and the palpable "sigh of relief" each time Instek releases a new version of the firmware,
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/)
I think you should read where a link points to before making statements which aren't true. Now you are just making a fool out of yourself!
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If you are willing to spend ~€1300 on the Instek, there are many options for you.
I'm certain Keysight would accept that offer for their DSOX2024A http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-DSOX2024A-Oscilloscope-4-channel-200MHz-Agilent-/172727327642 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-DSOX2024A-Oscilloscope-4-channel-200MHz-Agilent-/172727327642)
The last time I tried they rejected an offer that was only $100 down... and they charge sales tax in the US and they do not include accessories and probes (if you are lucky you get them, but they cannot confirm). That particular unit has warranty active until 3/22/2022
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Of course I have looked at the pictures of the probes. Even better, I have looked at the actual probes. Of course I don't think the interior construction looks high quality. Honestly, they don't feel bad in the hand, but probe feel is absurdly subjective and meaningless between users. However, I only expect marginally better given the price point. You don't get a Mercedes for the price of a Kia.
However, since I have actually used the scope I can say that the probes have been a non-issue in practice.
If one looks at pascal_sweden's umpteen posts in this and the other 1000X threads all he or she will find is complaint after complaint, attacks on Keysight's customer service, etc. all about a product he has never even put a finger on. Do you like to constantly complain to Fluke about how the 87V should default to DC amps instead of AC amps in current mode? They have known about this for years, but haven't even acknowledged it. They are horrible... no service. :blah:
It gets old, and contributes absolutely nothing.
Again more ad hominem attacks on Keysight users even. This sounds like a Mac/PC flame war or something, except the guy arguing about it uses a Commodore and has never touched a Mac or a PC.
Daniel acknowledged the issue immediately. At least Keysight *has* a representative here. It takes more than a week or two to redesign or remanufacture a large scale product. If you think the probes are useless than take into the account the cost of a better pair when purchasing. You will likely want to have at least three probes anyway.
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Of course I'm disappointed the probes don't match the quality of the scope itself, but I have a bunch already - and they are not that bad. They just drift a bit more than my other ones.
While I prefer my set of Tek probes, I have used the N2140A probes on the DSOX1102G. They are OK and I had no problems with them. About what I would expect to get with the scope.
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I think somebody suggested to stay away from Tektronix's scopes. Am I correct?
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I think somebody suggested to stay away from Tektronix's scopes. Am I correct?
Yes, you are correct that someone suggested this. :P
Seriously, the consensus seems to be that Tek's mid-range scopes have lacked innovation over many years now, and are lagging behind the competition. Their new four- to eight-channel high end platform, which was just released earlier this month, seems to be a big step forward. But I assume it will be years until that new generation of technology percolates down to the mid-range and entry level scopes which most of us can afford.
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both correct, but tek's probes are... uuuugh. fantastic.
every few months a lot of NOS tek probes of various flavours comes up on ebay (europe). That's how i got my high frequency / low capacitance probes for like 30€ each
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both correct, but tek's probes are... uuuugh. fantastic.
+1 to that. It's not about the performance, but the ergonomics. I've always used the P6131 /P6139 type probes - the cable is thin and very flexible, the probe is short and light, with a small pin, so you can just hang the probe in a through-hole, draping the cable over the bench light, for hand-free probing without clips or test points on the PCB.
Also for high-frequency probing, the small diameter of the barrel makes it easier to make nice grippy ground contacts by winding some tinned-copper wire round it.
AFAICS there's no reason that cheaper probes couldn't be made the same way, but everyone seems to just copy the traditional big, clunky form factor.
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and all the accessories and goodies that come in the bag!
and the 100 pages long manuals for older probes :D
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WTF did Farnell just bump the price of the 100MHz DSOX1102A from 609 euros just a few days ago to now 825 euros?!?
:palm:
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http://it.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/dsox1102a/osc-archiv-digitale-70mhz-2-ca/dp/2690192 (http://it.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/dsox1102a/osc-archiv-digitale-70mhz-2-ca/dp/2690192)
632 eur
1102G is 825 though
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http://it.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/dsox1102a/osc-archiv-digitale-70mhz-2-ca/dp/2690192 (http://it.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/dsox1102a/osc-archiv-digitale-70mhz-2-ca/dp/2690192)
632 eur
1102G is 825 though
Do those prices include VAT, or does it come on top?
The Farnell website is surprisingly unclear in that respect; it says "VAT: unknown" for me (in Germany).
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ex-vat of course
so he either clicked on the wrong product page, or he is seeing prices with VAT, or farnell had a temporary senile moment
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The 1000X probes are a total non-issue. If you don't like them then throw them away and spend $30-$40 to buy new ones. Personally I never use the probes which come with a scope anyway. I have a whole bunch (10 or so) of identical probes from Testec.
Even if it is cheap to replace the probes, it's a matter of principle:
One is not supposed to replace the probes of a brand new oscilloscope up front.
And if decent quality probes are really so cheap, how come Keysight has choosen to deliver the 1000X with the most crappiest probes on Earth?
Current product management at Keysight in a nutshell:
Lack of quality control.
Lack of responsibility.
Lack of accountability.
Lack of respect.
No long-term vision.
Key-sightless.
control yourself lady. its not an active probe you moaning about.
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The 1000X probes are a total non-issue. If you don't like them then throw them away and spend $30-$40 to buy new ones. Personally I never use the probes which come with a scope anyway. I have a whole bunch (10 or so) of identical probes from Testec.
Even if it is cheap to replace the probes, it's a matter of principle:
One is not supposed to replace the probes of a brand new oscilloscope up front.
And if decent quality probes are really so cheap, how come Keysight has choosen to deliver the 1000X with the most crappiest probes on Earth?
Current product management at Keysight in a nutshell:
Lack of quality control.
Lack of responsibility.
Lack of accountability.
Lack of respect.
No long-term vision.
Key-sightless.
control yourself lady. its not an active probe you moaning about.
Try opening up an active probe and looking at the soldering, these low volume boards with low numbers of components as used in the matching networks (termination) are usually hand assembled and look just like the pictures posted so far. Unwashed flux? thats the recommended application for many fluxes!
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I tried out the Tektronix TDS 3032B scope. It is very very noisy. How the Keysight 1000x series, GW Instek GDS-2204E and the Rigol DS1054Z ranked when comparing their noise level with respect to the TDS 3032B? Thanks
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I tried out the Tektronix TDS 3032B scope. It is very very noisy. How the Keysight 1000x series, GW Instek GDS-2204E and the Rigol DS1054Z ranked when comparing their noise level with respect to the TDS 3032B? Thanks
Can you post the settings used as well as the signal source? Do you have any pictures to share?
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I tried out the Tektronix TDS 3032B scope. It is very very noisy. How the Keysight 1000x series, GW Instek GDS-2204E and the Rigol DS1054Z ranked when comparing their noise level with respect to the TDS 3032B? Thanks
Can you post the settings used as well as the signal source? Do you have any pictures to share?
Sorry for the misunderstanding. By noisy, I meant the sound level rather than the signal noise.
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Try opening up an active probe and looking at the soldering, these low volume boards with low numbers of components as used in the matching networks (termination) are usually hand assembled and look just like the pictures posted so far. Unwashed flux? thats the recommended application for many fluxes!
Not to push one brand over another here, but I opened up my Lecroy 2.5GHz active probe a while back and it was pristine on the inside. I'm sure any of the $3000 keysight probes would be the same.
Last week I opened one of the Keysight N2843A 500MHz probes that came new with my 3000T, and it was pretty messy. Not quite as bad as sergio's pics, but close. Pretty disappointing. Clearly it was made CHEAP.
But hey, it works and is up to spec so what can I really complain about?
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Does anyone know if Keysight will take late model Agilent scopes as trade ins? If yes how can this be done.
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Does anyone know if Keysight will take late model Agilent scopes as trade ins? If yes how can this be done.
http://tradein.em.keysight.com/en/KTI-0130 (http://tradein.em.keysight.com/en/KTI-0130)
Also, the N2843A passive probes and a multi-GHz active probe will use dramatically different manufacturing techniques and tolerances.
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Thanks Daniel, it seems like the discounted Keysight store on eBay may offer better value though.
[Edit] A thought, if the scope was purchased from the Keysight store on eBay, would it qualify for the free DSOX1102G offer?
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[Edit] A thought, if the scope was purchased from the Keysight store on eBay, would it qualify for the free DSOX1102G offer?
I don't know, I'd recommend sending them a quick message and see what they say. I don't work closely with the Keysight eBay store folks.
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Hello All, I ended up buying the Micsig tBook mini TO1104. Thank you all of you for your replies.
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Are there any competitive model with frequency response analyzing function as with Keysight DSOX1102G ?
I cannot find any in $1000 price range.
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AD2 to 10MHz:
"Network analyzer – Bode, Nyquist, Nichols transfer diagrams of a circuit. Range: 1Hz to 10MHz"
https://reference.digilentinc.com/reference/instrumentation/analog-discovery-2/reference-manual
PicoScope 2000 mostly to 1MHz, 3rd party software:
https://bitbucket.org/hexamer/fra4picoscope/wiki/Home
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Are there any competitive model with frequency response analyzing function as with Keysight DSOX1102G ?
I cannot find any in $1000 price range.
To my knowledge, there aren't any benchtop scopes with this capability, but some USB scopes do (See MrW0lf's comment).
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Thank you, both, for info.
In meantime I found another interesting (8 in 1) USB solution with Frequency Response Analyzer in $1000 price range:
http://www.analogarts.com/products/8-in-1-frequency-response-analyzer/sf880-high-performance (http://www.analogarts.com/products/8-in-1-frequency-response-analyzer/sf880-high-performance)
Not really cheap but according factory data pretty capable.
Seem no Analog Arts instruments tested on eevblog yet?
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Wouldn't it make more sense to use a spectrum analyzer with a tracking generator output for that price tag?
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That SF880 has some pretty extraordinary specs for the price. Interesting.
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Wouldn't it make more sense to use a spectrum analyzer with a tracking generator output for that price tag?
Not sure.
I would prefer Keysight DSOX1102G great Frequency Response Analyzing function over double priced (say Rigol) frequency analyzer.
But seems that Analog Arts SF880 is even more capable, at least according factory data
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I've started another thread on the AA SF880 to help keep things on topic here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/analog-arts-sf880/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/analog-arts-sf880/)
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I've started another thread on the AA SF880 to help keep things on topic here
Thanks and sorry for little mess here.
Question to "Keysight DanielBogdanoff":
Are there any delay in plot finalizing with Keysight DSOX1102G Frequency Response Analyzing presentation, or it is plotted in time with measured parameter changing?
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Go to around 19:00 in this video and you can see it in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwZTZzYVzQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwZTZzYVzQ)
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Keysight released a patch with better FRA resolution after the video was published.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-1000-x-series-oscilloscope-fra-patch-coming/msg1220002/#msg1220002 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-1000-x-series-oscilloscope-fra-patch-coming/msg1220002/#msg1220002)
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A little surprised with slow speed FRA plot.
FRA should be very resource consumptive in processing?
Are there way to speed up FRA plotting response (by lower resolution, sampling)?
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A little surprised with slow speed FRA plot.
FRA should be very resource consumptive in processing?
Are there way to speed up FRA plotting response (by lower resolution, sampling)?
By changing the points-per-decade setting, to a lower number of points the FRA will plot faster (and have lower resolution). We put a lot of engineering effort (and secret sauce) into making sure we get the best possible FRA plot, so there are a lot of other factors that contribute to the test time. But, if you want a quicker plot you can just lower the resolution.
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Please state for the record if you own one of these scopes. You have been avoiding this question for five pages of posts.
Please state for the record if you personally have ever even touched one of these 1000 series scopes. All you have done is linked other threads.
I don't own a Keysight 1000X scope, and neither have touched it.
{ lengthy rant / fanboyism deleted }
Both Keysight and Keysight fanboys are all hypocrites IMO. Living in their own world, and denying that it is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE to deliver such a crappy probes. Even a 10 year old kid would agree on that.
Ahh.
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Do I get a free pair of nice probes if I jump on the hate-train? If so..
It's also a complete non-issue for me. And I do own the scope!
It's strange. The people who seems to have the biggest problem with them, are those who do not own the probes (and in some cases never ever has tested or touched them).
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The thread was bumped from 2017?
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Do I get a free pair of nice probes if I jump on the hate-train? If so..
It's also a complete non-issue for me. And I do own the scope!
But Pascal_Sweden and his ilk thinks you're an idiot, who doesn't know what's good for you, lol! Doesn't that keep you up at night?
Reading Pascal´s endless trolling and religious hate campaign against brand name manufactures (any hyping cheap Chinise brands as the salvation the worlds all problems) really makes me feel ashamed for also being Swedish. :-[
Do I get a free pair of nice probes if I jump on the hate-train? If so..
It's also a complete non-issue for me. And I do own the scope!
But Pascal_Sweden and his ilk thinks you're an idiot, who doesn't know what's good for you, lol! Doesn't that keep you up at night?
Of course I'm disappointed the probes don't match the quality of the scope itself, but I have a bunch already - and they are not that bad. They just drift a bit more than my other ones.
Looking for maybe buying a four channel version in the 1000x series, as one possible option (also considering R&S, Siglent and others), I also look for buying a good set of probes regardless which scope I go with (in my price range they all tend to come with not so good probes). Been looking at probes from Testec like these;
https://www.testec.de/en/products/product-categories/standard-probes/ (https://www.testec.de/en/products/product-categories/standard-probes/)
Anyone who has used them and can come with an opinion on them (would like at lest 200MHz probes with silicon leads and good firm gold tips)?
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Of course I have looked at the pictures of the probes. Even better, I have looked at the actual probes. Of course I don't think the interior construction looks high quality. Honestly, they don't feel bad in the hand, but probe feel is absurdly subjective and meaningless between users. However, I only expect marginally better given the price point. You don't get a Mercedes for the price of a Kia.
However, since I have actually used the scope I can say that the probes have been a non-issue in practice.
If one looks at pascal_sweden's umpteen posts in this and the other 1000X threads all he or she will find is complaint after complaint, attacks on Keysight's customer service, etc. all about a product he has never even put a finger on. Do you like to constantly complain to Fluke about how the 87V should default to DC amps instead of AC amps in current mode? They have known about this for years, but haven't even acknowledged it. They are horrible... no service. :blah:
It gets old, and contributes absolutely nothing.
Again more ad hominem attacks on Keysight users even. This sounds like a Mac/PC flame war or something, except the guy arguing about it uses a Commodore and has never touched a Mac or a PC.
Daniel acknowledged the issue immediately. At least Keysight *has* a representative here. It takes more than a week or two to redesign or remanufacture a large scale product. If you think the probes are useless than take into the account the cost of a better pair when purchasing. You will likely want to have at least three probes anyway.
I wonder why some people like PascalSwede get to be so religious and brand zealots, to the point that they put their life time and effort in dissing some brands and hyping other brands?
Why can not both companies and products be assessed for what they are, on their own merits, without all that constant religious crap?
Do not understand such behaviour at all (regardless if scopes or computers).
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The thread was bumped from 2017?
Yes. Reading up on different scope threads in preparation for selecting a good scope, and new scopes introduced in 2017 is still valid for me to consider.
Keysight released new scopes in the series two years ago with some new black four channel versions, and just in this year (2020) they released new 2 channel versions in the 1000x series. Seems to be 2 channel versions based on the black four channel versions; i.e. including all serial decoding options that is very attractive for some of my usage (especially CAN bus).
Will consider many different brands and models, but might be that a scope in the Keysight 1000 x series will be one possible choice for me to consider.
BTW; what scope do you use yourself?
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For us amateurs main problems are prices not brands.