Hp 16500A logic analyzer info

[vaualbus]

Since i begin the digital eletronic at school my idea was to make a microcomputer. Eventually this year i development but i was stuck very early. At that time don't have a scope and  logic analyzer either.
Eventually i bought an repair my tds540. Now i'm looking for a logic analyzer.
I come up  finding a old HP16500A logic analazyer for less than 200 bucks including the shpping.
The analyzer come with all the disks all the probe and another special cable for debug something.
So guys what do you think about the analyzer and the price?
 Best regards Alberto.

[PaulAm]

The 16500 line was a modular system; there were a bunch of different boards you could plug in to build a system to your  liking.  Pattern generators, state/timing boards and DSO cards, among others.  You need to find out what boards are in the one you're interested in and determine if they meet your needs.  Make sure it has the pods and grabbers; they get pricey if you have to track them down separately.

The B with the LAN card and the C models let you control the system remotely over a network if you have an X terminal.  The C version is still a bit on the high side, price wise.  The B with the LAN card and the C version are close in capability, but the C is the fastest, has the most memory and there were a number of other improvements.

This is a relatively cheap way to get a 2 GS/s DSO with a 32K buffer and a 7 inch color screen if you get the right DSO card.  You could actually put 4 cards in the chassis and get 8 channels if you wanted.  I'm not sure if the A version supports the top end card, though.

Not supported, obsolete, but still useful as long as you're not looking at serial protocols, or stuff over 100 MHz.

The manuals, in physical form, will take up a 2m bookshelf.

Some cards are compatible with the 16700 follow on, some not.

[kevinpt]

The 16500 and 16700 series are nice but the early models have the problem that they boot from 720k LIF format floppies and lack a hard drive. That's going to be a pain to maintain heading into the future. I have a fondness for the little brother 1660 and 1670 analyzers which have essentially the same operating system with a more usable front panel in place of the touch screen. Their big weakness is slow waveform redraw when zoomed out. This is noticeably bad on the later deep memory models in the series. Still, with the LAN interface present, you have lots of options to access the data on board via NFS, FTP, or GPIB commands over telnet, serial port, or the GPIB port for offline analysis on a modern computer. These instruments were ahead of their time in terms of network connectivity.

[free_electron]

The 16500 and 16700 series are nice but the early models have the problem that they boot from 720k LIF format floppies and lack a hard drive.

Not correct. Only the 16500a boots from two floppies. The B amd C version have built in harddisk. It is easy to replace these old ide harddisk using a simple 4Gbyte compactflash card and compactflash to ide adapter. Boot from floppy , format drive and copy the files over. Done.
The machine will boot fast.
Usability is limited to the 9 inch touchscreen unless you eother get the network card or the 16505 prototype analyser. That machine is essentially an x-server running on a pa-risc processor. It has its own ide drive and boots a hp-ux installation. It can drive a standard vga screen up to 1600x1200. It interfaces over the scsi (hp cals it the fast acquisition bus) but it is scsi to the 16500b or c. Then the machines are really usable.
The 16700 do away with the old motorola 68k as in the 16500 and put a Pa-risc at 150mhz running hp-ux directly in the machine. 16700 requires external monitor. 16702 have built in for version A and even touchscreen for B. there are ram upgrades (option 003) to allow for 1600x1200 on an external display.

The 16500 series uses hpil keyboard and mouse and are hard to find. The 16700 is ps/2 but not all ps/2 keyboards work. Get an old hp keyboard (the curved ones). If the machine does not want to boot then the keyboard is incompatible.

The 16700 and 16702a needs an external scsi1 cdrom to recover it. The 16702b has a built in one.
All the 167xx run the same firmware. It looks like windows 3.1 but is actually hp-ux. the machine has an x-client. So you run an x- server on the pc and remote control it. Works perfectly fine.

Alle 165xx cards work in the 167xx

The 16900 series is a different animal. That is pc based and runs win xp or win 7. It uses a coprocessor board. In pci busmaster to translate the RIO (that is what the backplane bus for the analysers is called. Essentially a very wide data and address bus)  into pc memory space. I have posted a teardown of my 16900.

Only a few select 167xx series cards work in the 169xx series. Notably the 16750 and 16760 work. The rest doesnt. 169xx are -very- expensive even used on ebay.

The 1680 and 1690 are stripped down 16900 with two or four channels in it . Not modular.

The 16500, 16700 and 16900 can be expanded using an expansion chassis (each type has its own) for a total of 10(165xx and 167xx) or 12 blades(16900)

There exists a timing correlator box for the 167xx and 169xx. This allows an infiniium scope and the logic analyser to be time synced. Either the scope or the analyser can fire the common trigger. The scope and analyser run in lock-step so you can capture analog and digital domain synchroneously. You connect both analyser and scope to the network, give them each others ip address and the logic analyser will clone the captured data from the scope so you can visualise it on the same waveform viewer. Most of the infiniium scopes with software 3.7xx or later can do it. Although it works best with the deep memory infiniums like the 54631 54632 and later machines.

A 16500a chassis can be found for 50$... Plus expensive shipping. These beasts weigh a ton... A b version goes for around 100$. A 16700 can be had for about 200 to 250$ while a 16900 will set you back 500 to 600. (Without blades).
Blades for a 165xx start at about 100$. The 167 series blades is 500$ and more while 169 blades sit well above a few thousand $...

[vaualbus]

So what model at the end you suggest, also can you suggest me some other logic analyzer for the same price around 300$, I still go for old model because it is less expensive.

[free_electron]

Either a 16500B or 16500C or a 167xx
DO NOT BUY AN 16500A.
That machine is horribly slow since it needs ro start from the two floppies. Since they are in lif format they are hard to create. There is a tool to write lif from a pc but it only works underdos! (Real dos! Not a dosbox in windows...) and you need 720k floppies....
The floppy drives inside the machine are special. If they die it is game over. You can't get them. Only some old atari used the same drives. Or was it the mac lisa ? Can't remember. Its a drive that was commonly used in the motorola world. Not in pc land...

At least the b has a harddisk.
You can still download the latest firmware from agilent. If the internal harddisk works then there is no problem , if it doesnt , slap in an old ide drive of a few hundred megabyte or go the compactflash/ide adapter way. The systems firmware is like 5 megabyte.

There is no installer. Simply create a folder called System and copy all the files in there . When done , powercycle and it will boot.

[PaulAm]

16500As are cheap, but go for either the B or C.  There was an upgrade kit that essentially changed out the processor board to turn an A or B into the C model.  If you have a choice, pick a C, although I've been pretty happy with my B.

The 16505 prototype analyzer is amazing.  I have the pieces for one but haven't had the time to put it together.  You need an obsolete HPUX computer for that along with the software load.  Find the HP blurb sheet on that; it's worth looking at.

I was working on a SCSI comm link for a while to let me control the system from a Linux box.  That was interesting.

I've kept my eyes open for an expansion chassis, but I haven't seen any available.

[free_electron]

The 16505 prototype analyzer is amazing.  I have the pieces for one but haven't had the time to put it together.  You need an obsolete HPUX computer for that along with the software load.  Find the HP blurb sheet on that; it's worth looking at.

no you dont. the 16505 has a floppy drive and you boot and reload the system from there. you can either load the entire system thru floppy or using a scsi-1 cd rom drive at address 3

the 16505 is essentially an x-client. it allows you to connect to the x-server in the 16500b and create viewports. max resolution is 1600x1200 and it will work with most lcd monitors.
you can open graphical viewers, listers and other style viewers. you can also control the main chassis completely. some software post-processing options were avaialble as well.

the 16700 series is esssnetially a 500 with a 505 built in.

the 16500A cannot talk to the 16505 . it is too slow. the A is a 68K , the B a 68K10 and the c an 68K20 processor. processor boards are interchangeable. the network adapter card only works on b or C ( and they are specific per type )

there are a number of 167xx chassis on ebay right now starting at like 50$. forget the 16500's altogether.

if you really want a 16500 i hav a 16500B fully restored with latest firmware. i'll throw in a 16550 acquisition board with cables and pods. if you pay the shipping you can have it. it's occupying space in my lab ... since i got the 16900 i don't need it anymore.

i will eventually release my 16702b as well but i first need to get the pattern generator for the 900 ... i have the pattern generator for the 702 but it is not transportable to the 900 series...

[Electro Fan]

The 16500 and 16700 series are nice but the early models have the problem that they boot from 720k LIF format floppies and lack a hard drive.

Not correct. Only the 16500a boots from two floppies. The B amd C version have built in harddisk. It is easy to replace these old ide harddisk using a simple 4Gbyte compactflash card and compactflash to ide adapter. Boot from floppy , format drive and copy the files over. Done.
The machine will boot fast.
Usability is limited to the 9 inch touchscreen unless you eother get the network card or the 16505 prototype analyser. That machine is essentially an x-server running on a pa-risc processor. It has its own ide drive and boots a hp-ux installation. It can drive a standard vga screen up to 1600x1200. It interfaces over the scsi (hp cals it the fast acquisition bus) but it is scsi to the 16500b or c. Then the machines are really usable.
The 16700 do away with the old motorola 68k as in the 16500 and put a Pa-risc at 150mhz running hp-ux directly in the machine. 16700 requires external monitor. 16702 have built in for version A and even touchscreen for B. there are ram upgrades (option 003) to allow for 1600x1200 on an external display.

The 16500 series uses hpil keyboard and mouse and are hard to find. The 16700 is ps/2 but not all ps/2 keyboards work. Get an old hp keyboard (the curved ones). If the machine does not want to boot then the keyboard is incompatible.

The 16700 and 16702a needs an external scsi1 cdrom to recover it. The 16702b has a built in one.
All the 167xx run the same firmware. It looks like windows 3.1 but is actually hp-ux. the machine has an x-client. So you run an x- server on the pc and remote control it. Works perfectly fine.

Alle 165xx cards work in the 167xx

The 16900 series is a different animal. That is pc based and runs win xp or win 7. It uses a coprocessor board. In pci busmaster to translate the RIO (that is what the backplane bus for the analysers is called. Essentially a very wide data and address bus)  into pc memory space. I have posted a teardown of my 16900.

Only a few select 167xx series cards work in the 169xx series. Notably the 16750 and 16760 work. The rest doesnt. 169xx are -very- expensive even used on ebay.

The 1680 and 1690 are stripped down 16900 with two or four channels in it . Not modular.

The 16500, 16700 and 16900 can be expanded using an expansion chassis (each type has its own) for a total of 10(165xx and 167xx) or 12 blades(16900)

There exists a timing correlator box for the 167xx and 169xx. This allows an infiniium scope and the logic analyser to be time synced. Either the scope or the analyser can fire the common trigger. The scope and analyser run in lock-step so you can capture analog and digital domain synchroneously. You connect both analyser and scope to the network, give them each others ip address and the logic analyser will clone the captured data from the scope so you can visualise it on the same waveform viewer. Most of the infiniium scopes with software 3.7xx or later can do it. Although it works best with the deep memory infiniums like the 54631 54632 and later machines.

A 16500a chassis can be found for 50$... Plus expensive shipping. These beasts weigh a ton... A b version goes for around 100$. A 16700 can be had for about 200 to 250$ while a 16900 will set you back 500 to 600. (Without blades).
Blades for a 165xx start at about 100$. The 167 series blades is 500$ and more while 169 blades sit well above a few thousand $...

Hi free_electron,

Wow - Thanks for posting this excellent summary.  It would probably take several to many hours for most people to do the research to put all that together so succintly.  Very nice work.  EF

[Electro Fan]

Just came across this - looked interesting:

http://martin-jones.com/category/hp-16500ab/

Really beautiful looking from the displays and boards to the chassis extrusions - back in the day it must have been extra exquisite.

~20 years later it looks like it might take some extra work to get this stuff going to the point where you can use it for looking at yet other gear.

[PaulAm]

Re 16505a

From the Jun 96 HP Journal:

The HP 16505A prototype analyzer is the next-generation user interface for logic analysis.  It is an X11/Motif application running on an HP 9000 Model 712 PA-RISC workstation directly tied to the HP 16500 logic analysis mainframe.  This system is a managed, or closed, system.  From boot until power-down this system is solely dedicated to extending the prototype debug paradigm from the nine-inch touchscreen of the HP 16500 to a multiple-window, high-resolution interface.

The design uses the X11/Motif graphical user interface (GUI).  This was done to accomplish several goals.  First, using an existing state-of-the-art GUI allowed us to focus on our own contributions.  Second, with the distributed X11 interface, we can make the application available over a network to any X-compliant computer, including PCs.  The software was written in C++ for the Model 712 workstation platform.  This gave our application affordable MIPS, which were needed because debugging one-megasample logic analyzer traces across hundreds of channels will tax any computer.

Here's a link to an article on the 16505A architecture in the HP journal:
www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/96jun/jun96a2.pdf

 
I think you might be confused here; there's no way you can boot and run an HPUX 712 with X11 from a floppy.  The 712s I have don't even have floppies.  They talk to the 16500 mainframe through the SCSI port.  And the analyzer code won't run on anything other than a PA-RISC system.  Being X, of course, you can use any display on your network.

You don't need a 16505 to connect a B or C to an X display.  If it has a network card, just configure it and point it to your display.

[nctnico]

But make sure the X-server on your PC understands the protocol. On Linux it may be a bit easier. I used to have a Tektronix DAS9200 that needed an external X-server and at some point the X-servers for the PC didn't support the old protocol. Oh and in X-windows the computer running the software is the client and the computer doing the display bit is the server. Client applications connect to the X-server over the network to send their output and receive keyboard/mouse data.

[vaualbus]

So thanks for the very helpull information.
To summerize: the 16500a is a pain in the ass
The b and c module are ok.
The 16505 is very good but difficult to configure.
If i want to look to the next models 16700, 800 and 900 series what is my best choice?
Best regards alberto

[free_electron]

Re 16505a

 
I think you might be confused here; there's no way you can boot and run an HPUX 712 with X11 from a floppy.  The 712s I have don't even have floppies.  They talk to the 16500 mainframe through the SCSI port.  And the analyzer code won't run on anything other than a PA-RISC system.  Being X, of course, you can use any display on your network.

You don't need a 16505 to connect a B or C to an X display.  If it has a network card, just configure it and point it to your display.

we're not talking 16712. The 16505 HAS a floppy ! the 505 is  a custom built PA-risc workstation running an X-client (there is a lot of confusion about this on : an x-client is the entity that CONSUMES the X commands and visualises the screen . The x-server is the entitity that generates X-commands. so the 16500 is the x-server. the 16505 is the x client.

It is perfectly possible to re-image a 16505 with nothing but the install floppies. i have done it multiple times. plop in new drive, launch the system manager from rom (the system manager is actually a full fledged hp-ux core system. these machines have the operating system in rom), format the disk and then load the system and apps. powercycle and hpux will now boot from harddisk.

you don't need a 16505 if all you are after is x-windows. but, the 16505 has additional software to allow manipulating the analyser.
it does NOT communicate over a lan interface but goes directly through the scsi port so it is a lot faster at moving huge datasets.

[vaualbus]

Ok but where to get the software? The unit i've saw on ebay have no disk. So the unit are linked together with normal lan?

[free_electron]

the 500b and 500c have the software on harddisk. so does the 505

only the 500a needs starting from 2 floppies

disc images can be found on the agilent ftp site. i have all of em

[vaualbus]

Ok, I have search a little bit on the ftp but I can't find nothink about the software, I've only found the manuals. Can you send me the files at alberto.vaudagna@gmail.com given the fact that you have those?
Best regards, ALberto Vaudagna.

[rf-loop]

All is here:

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?k=16500A&neighborhood=ETM&kt=1&cc=US&lc=eng&homesearch=Search

If link do not work
go to Agilent usa side
in search select Electronic Test & measurement  (right field)
Left field write just: 16500A 

there is list of manuals etc including also this:
Version 6.00  Operating system software files for the 16500A logic analysis system.

(also you find instructions (inside downloadable) how to make these LIF disks.
(normally you can use normal HD/DD 3.5" disks. There is software for do these disks. As free-electron before told it need run in pure DOS.  Result is best if first can format disks in 16500A drive.)

Btw, typical problem in these drives is that they are dirty and head movement mechanics grease/oil is dry. Sometimes disk does not rotate at all.  (it need carefully clean and insert then lubricate these with small amount of right oil/grease. I have been lucky and all more than 10 of failed drives works perfect after careful cleaning service. For this it need of course open. And care that head adjustemnt do not change. (it can adjust of course but this work need right tools and knowledge. I have not finded these disk drives service and adjusting manual) . These drives are really made different than today 5$ crap and cheap 1.4M 3.5" drives.

(I have more than one 16500A, one 16500B, one 16500C, all working perfect or first need some small service + some failed 16500A. Some I have sold out)

[vaualbus]

ya but now I'm thiking to buy the C version, any one have idea where there are their softwares?

[vaualbus]

I've found them. Thanks for the helps.

[rf-loop]

yes for C version there is 16500C_v1.09.exe what produce disk images and readme

[free_electron]

i believe the b and c can actually read dos formatted floppies. the LIF format is for the A only ... but i'm not sure about that.

[Watermelon]

I've just picked up an 16700a with 2 16715a logic analyzer cards and option 003 for about 70$. Too bad it comes without pod's and grabbers... Any hints on this one? Where to get the cables and pod's?

[rf-loop]

i believe the b and c can actually read dos formatted floppies. the LIF format is for the A only ... but i'm not sure about that.

Yes, B and C support both,  LIF and DOS.  When format disk there in 16500 menu can slect LIF or DOS.
( A only LIF)

[mopar5150]

I realize this thread is a bit old but for what it is worth,  The 16500b/c machines have the advantage of being able to use the earlier scope cards 16530/31 and 16532 and these are very cheap.  If you are using the 16505A with your 16500 B/C you have to use the 16534 scope card $350-450.

The 16700 series requires the 16534 as well. The 16700 uses SVGA monitor and PS2 keyboard and mouse, the 16702 have a built in LCD and keyboard but the LCD is 800x600 and makes looking at multiple windows a pain.  Cheep 20" LCDs work well with both the 16505 and 16700.

I have all three of these systems and prefer the 16700 as it and parts are cheep on ebay.  It is as big as a 16500 but you can locate it off the side of the bench and just have the monitor, keyboard and mouse in the way.

I love the 16505, but I have not been able to find the system disk/CD for it in case the hard drive dies.   If anyone has the 16505 software please let me know!