Worth buying a HP 16500B with Failed ROM test? -> Yes for me ;-)

[davorin]

Hello

I've seen a HP 16500B listed with a screen shot saying:

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failed    ROM Test
failed    Hard Disk Test
The failed harddrive test might be caused by a bad harddrive or an unformatted harddrive as I read it somewhere...
I haven't just found any pointers to the "failed ROM test" anywhere...just in the service manual: "Replace faulty CPU board" (o;
At least it seems to boot up, where the bootup code is surely in a ROM somewhere (o;


Ah yeah...almost forgot...can this model be easily changed to 230V AC?

[davorin]

Hmm...seems that there are even no schematics for the CPU board nor any ROM images available....

[nctnico]

If the price is right just take it. The ROM error may be nothing more than a poor contact.

edit: typo

[davorin]

Meanwhile I looked up some CPU boards on Ebay...

Funny though the CPU board with item nbr. 16500-69509 can't be found anywhere...only 16500-66509.

Does the 16500-69509 mean the spare part and the 16500-66509 the original CPU board?

[free_electron]

DONT spend money on a 500 system. they are worthless now. unshiftable. and cost more in shipping than they are worth.

Go for at least a 700 series. if you must have a 500 make sure it is a C version ( with ethernet built in and more memory )
you're better off getting a 167x or 1680x all-in-one than the 16500 series chassis with blades.

I've been sitting on a fully loaded 16500 series for years. ended up giving it away for free cause i needed space. Still sitting on a very nice 16702B.

[davorin]

Is there like a compatibility matrix, which analyzer card can be used in which 165xx model?

[davorin]

Well...too late now (o;

Currently have a Tektronix 1241....with no cables and pods (o;

So sort of minimal upgraded now to a 16500B with 3 * 16555A with cables for around US$ 50...not planning to use it for high sophisticated circuits...but also to see how programmable it would be via GPIB and Python...

Well...ROM failure it shows..but hopefully it is fixable easy...So far I was lucky in the past repairing HP equipment :-)
And if I can learn something during the repair process and let others here know...why not (o;

[DIPLover]

If you ever replace the hard drive, I have a floppy with the 16500B Symbol Utility on it I could image if you need to restore it.

[helius]

Is there like a compatibility matrix, which analyzer card can be used in which 165xx model?

http://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/MainframeModuleCompatibilityMatrixMay2009.pdf?&cc=US&lc=eng

[davorin]

Just received my 16500B this morning....and indeed...swapping the CPU board shows no more the ROM error....

Now waiting for some CF disks and CF-IDE adapters (o;

[PaulAm]

There was a LAN option for the 16500B.  Did yours come with it?

[davorin]

Surprisingly it did come with the LAN option....10BaseT (o;

Now have to look how to read out the 4 PLCC 27H256-45 ROM contents and compare them..might be a CRC issue here....

Apparently Mouser still sells this kind of OTP EPROM used in the CPU board manufacturedd by Atmel with item number: AT27C256R-45JU

[davorin]

After a long search I finfally found a floppy disk which could be formatted (o;

Now booted up first disk and trying the LAN method for bringing the IDE disk back to life...

Hmm...from the IP configuration it seems the former holder of the 16500B was NXP semiconductor ;-)


...okay...hard disk seems really to be broken..or even non-existent...as I haven't opened it up yet (o;

[davorin]

Definitively the ROMs gone bad....well...actually...when I compare the ROM images from the broken and the good CPU board I see that 16500-80016 and 16500-80017 differ...

Just created a TAR file containing the ROM images of a working 16500-66509 16500B CPU board ;-)
Don't be confused by the "_good.bin" file endings...


And before I forget....those small chinese USB Minipro TL866CS programmers are nice for such work....especially when you ordered one with the PLCC adapters as well...
Just a simple:

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minipro -p "AM27H256 @PLCC32" -y -r 16500-80017_good.bin
..under Linux to read out....write takes a "-w" obviously...

[davorin]

Hah....got my IDE/CF adapter today.....and after some several try and errors I got it working now :-)

Main problem was with the poor documentation for the IDE/CF adapter...saying that master was on bottom, and slave on top of the adapter...
Turned out it is the other way around when I testwise put in two CF cards (o;

The CF card which runs fine is an old Apacer 64MB card....

Now testing some more old cards.... and maybe getting this nice adapter here from Switzerland:

http://www.pcengines.ch/cf5hs.htm

Maybe could be fitted directly onto the CPU board (o;

[davorin]

This post will hold now updated infos regarding compatible CF cards...

The IDE adapter I used is from Delock: http://www.delock.de/produkte/G_91644/merkmale.html?setLanguage=en

Current CF cards working:

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Canon 32MB, FC-32M
Apacer CF 64MB
Smart Modular Technologies 64MB, SM9FLACF64M5
takeMS 512MB High Speed
MaxFlash 1GB, CF1G80M-R
Non-working CF cards:

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Sandisk 128MB, labelled SDCFB © 99, formats fine, but then total system hangs
Sandisk 256MB, labelled SDCFB © 2000, format and install fine, after reboot read error
Maxflash 4GB x120, CF4G120M-R, system crash when formatting
Kingston 4GB 40x, CF/4GB, Disk timeout
SanDisk 4GB Ultra 25MB/s, SDCFHS-004G-G46, system hangs after formatting
All PCEngines cards (1GB, 2GB, 4GB) from [url=http://www.pcengines.ch]www.pcengines.ch[/url]
The procedure ot install the 5 disks onto the drive can be easier if you have the LAN option than mentioned at: http://www.philpem.me.uk/elec/testgear/hp16500b/reinstall/

Once you've booted with the first disk and formatted the drive configure the IP address, move all files from all 5 disks into one directoy, fire up "lftp" fpt client under Linux, and do:

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lftp -u control 10.0.0.100 (or whatever IP you have assigned to it
cd system/disk/hard
mkdir system
cd system
set passive-mode off
mput *
Remove floppy disk, power cycle and enjoy (o;

[mikeselectricstuff]

Surprisingly it did come with the LAN option....10BaseT (o;

Now have to look how to read out the 4 PLCC 27H256-45 ROM contents and compare them..might be a CRC issue here....

Apparently Mouser still sells this kind of OTP EPROM used in the CPU board manufacturedd by Atmel with item number: AT27C256R-45JU

You probably don't need new ROMs. Chances are some bits have drifted back to their erased state, so once you have a good image you should be able to just reprogram over the old contents.
Also, you may be able to recover the correct data by reading with a lower supply voltage, to reduce the read threshold.

[davorin]

Problem is that those ROMs in the CPU are of type OTP....and with OTP you just bluse fuses out giving a "0"....so no way it could be restored to a "1"...

But I already have good images from the second board...and cross checked them...bad ROMs in other CPU board....also same error.
Will anyway order some AT27H256-45 OTP EPROMs today from Mouser...probably need 50 of those to get free shipping as they are cheap (o;

[mikeselectricstuff]

Problem is that those ROMs in the CPU are of type OTP....and with OTP you just bluse fuses out giving a "0"....so no way it could be restored to a "1"...

These will be OTP EPROMS, not fuse PROMS
The erased state is a 1, and long-term leakage will turn 0 to 1, so can be reprogrammed as 0.
If you do a bit check between your good and bad set I suspect all the errors will be '1's where '0's should be.

[davorin]

Ah okay...wasn't aware of that.....so I will try now to reprogram those 2 failed ROMs now (o;

[helius]

OTP EPROMs are exactly the same as erasable EPROMs except for the package. They save money by leaving out the quartz window and using plastic instead of ceramic.

[davorin]

Interesting...just reprogrammed those two failed ROMs:

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klingler@nuc:~$ minipro -p "AM27H256 @PLCC32" -y -w 16500-80016_good.bin
Found Minipro TL866CS v3.62.2
Chip ID OK: 0x110
Writing Code... OK
Reading Code... OK
Verification OK
klingler@nuc:~$ minipro -p "AM27H256 @PLCC32" -y -w 16500-80017_good.bin
Found Minipro TL866CS v3.62.2
Chip ID OK: 0x110
Writing Code... OK
Reading Code... OK
Verification OK

But didn't work for the first ROM (o;

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klingler@nuc:~$ minipro -p "AM27H256 @PLCC32" -y -w 16500-80014_good.bin
Found Minipro TL866CS v3.62.2
Chip ID OK: 0x110
Writing Code... OK
Reading Code... OK
Verification failed at 0x40: 0x4e != 0x00


[macboy]

Interesting...just reprogrammed those two failed ROMs:

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klingler@nuc:~$ minipro -p "AM27H256 @PLCC32" -y -w 16500-80016_good.bin
Found Minipro TL866CS v3.62.2
Chip ID OK: 0x110
Writing Code... OK
Reading Code... OK
Verification OK
klingler@nuc:~$ minipro -p "AM27H256 @PLCC32" -y -w 16500-80017_good.bin
Found Minipro TL866CS v3.62.2
Chip ID OK: 0x110
Writing Code... OK
Reading Code... OK
Verification OK

But didn't work for the first ROM (o;

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klingler@nuc:~$ minipro -p "AM27H256 @PLCC32" -y -w 16500-80014_good.bin
Found Minipro TL866CS v3.62.2
Chip ID OK: 0x110
Writing Code... OK
Reading Code... OK
Verification failed at 0x40: 0x4e != 0x00


Did you erase with UV eraser first? The AM27H256 is not electrically erasable (EEPROM), it is good old UV-erasable EPROM.

[davorin]

I never said it is UV (o;

The AM27H256-45 type is a plain OTP EPROM with no windows...

[PA0PBZ]

Verification failed at 0x40: 0x4e != 0x00

Looks like you are out of luck there, the byte in the rom is 0x00, no way you are going to program that into 0x4E.
Maybe this is where the original error comes from, did you verify the other roms before re-programming?

[davorin]

Well...I already placed an order @ Mouser now for the new ROMs....if one fails...the other will fail soon (o;

The previous readout of the first ROM was exactly the same as compared to the good ROM....

I will see in two days if the readout of the good ROMs was okay or not (o;

[davorin]

Hmm....no luck with Atmel AT27C256R-45.....though I don't see any differences in specifications from the original AM27H256-45 or CY27C256-45 ROMs....

Doesn't even do anything after power up...dark screen, no floppy noise....

And yes...checked the programmed ROMs that they have the same content as the original ones...


Hmm..the only difference I see is in the /OE to output delay with 20sec for the new Atmel ROM and 15nsec for the original Cypress ROM.

[davorin]

Hahh....normally I prefer Linux over Windows...

But thought I try it under XP under VMWare under OSX (o;

First the programmer software reflashed the TL866 programmer.....read out the good ROMs and flashed another 4 AT27C256R-45...

Et voilà....have now a second working 16500B CPU board....which gets as well the CF adapter add-on board now :-)


Update: Uploaded the ROM images in a previous post here as it turned out minipro under Linux didn't read out ROM 16 and 17 correctly...

[BloodyCactus]

did the change to CF give you any speedup?

[davorin]

You mean speedup by means of booting I assume...after booting I guess the IDE bus won't be addressed anymore?

Takes around 12secs from power on until I see the base screen....

Attached some shots of the CF IDE adapters...one is for replacing a 3.5" drive...the other can be directly plugged onto an IDE connector...
The second picture shows the modification for supplying the 5V rail onto the CF adapter...some adapter already use pin 20 for +5V.

And finally how it looks like....the CF/ID adapter with 1GB Maxflash plugged onto the 16500B CPU board (o;

[davorin]

Okay..boot time heavily depends on number of cards installed....the 12secs was without any card inside...

Now with 3 * 16550A takes around 20secs....

[BloodyCactus]

mine is a 1670G it boots from flash and saves stuff to disk but if its apps are on disk it will load them from disk (symbols, analyzer, pattern gen etc). the 1670G is basically the 16500, its treated as as a 2 or 3 slot according to the system.

I wondered about replacing the 44pin 2.5" ibm IDE disk drive with a cf card, if it will speed it up or not anything noticeable

[davorin]

How long does yours take from power-on to main screen?

[BloodyCactus]

power on is instant, screen comes up straight away with the bootup screen, roms load, etc. probably all up to the analyzer screen in about 15-20 seconds.

there are some pics n stuff in this thread;

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hpagilentkeysomehing-1670g-logic-analyzer/

this is a little vid I made for a friend to show it working, think I posted it in your 16510B pod thread.

[davorin]

Yes...remember that video...helped me to configure the 16500A correctly to see some traces finally (o;

From the video it looks like you power it up at timestamp 12sec....but at 44secs it is still loading....so more than 30 seconds...

Maybe you wont gain much transfer speeds..but seek times is much better with CF...and it draws less power....

[davorin]

Just received some cheap EDO and FPM RAM modules from Ebay....and seems the 16500B CPU board accepts them all...

So you can go from a standard 8MB board to a 64MB (o;

[davorin]

Hmm..I remember that I read somewhere here which fan people used to replaced the two noisy fans inside a 16500B....but can't find it anymore...

Apparently they didn't talk about the Comair Rotron MD12B2X model I have inside the 16500B.....
All I can find on specs are 12V DC and 6W power....no noise or cfm details...

[PaulAm]

I have a couple of Panaflo FBA12G12V fans sitting on my bench to go in my 16500b one of these days.

There may have been a thread on the hp_agilent_equipment board a couple years ago talking about the correct replacement.  I think I got the part number from there.  Do a search on Panaflow hp1500b and the threads will turn up.

[davorin]

I knew the brand name sounds like a caugh medicine (o;

Got some specs from here: http://www.sharkyforums.com/showthread.php?134151-Need-Panaflo-fan-specs-Help

Looks that there are two versions, V = variable speed, U = unvariable (o;

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Panaflo FBA12G12U - 12Volts, 510mA, 6.12Watts, 2700rpm, 114.7 cfm, 45.5 dB-A
Seems like this model would fit the Panaflow:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/OD1238-12HTB/1053-1150-ND/2621055

[rastro]

Just received some cheap EDO and FPM RAM modules from Ebay....and seems the 16500B CPU board accepts them all...

So you can go from a standard 8MB board to a 64MB (o;

Do you have part number, vendor, model on the RAM modules you purchased on eBay?  I may at some point upgrade 16500C.
Thanks

[davorin]

Not sure if the same modules would work on the 16500C as its CPU runs at mich higher speed....isn't it some RISC CPU @ 150MHz?

[helius]

The 16500C has a MC68EC030 at 25MHz. (seems to be the same as 16500B)
The 16700 is the one with a PA-RISC.

[davorin]

Ah okay....then I wonder why some cards are only compatible with the 16500C but not B model...

Here some of the modules which work:

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Siemens HYB5117400BJ-60, 32MB FPM
CW417404-6, 16MB EDO
TMS418169DZ-60, 8MB EDO