EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: gerrysweeney on May 28, 2013, 10:11:37 am
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Hi, does anyone have a readable schematic for any of the timebase option for the HP 531xxA counters? I can see that there is an SPI bus going to the module but the schematic in the manual published from the Agilent site for the timebase module is not readable because its a low-res scan of the schematic. The document I am talking about is here: http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6308EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6308EN.pdf)
I am guessing that the SPI bus is used to provide the voltage control so that the OCXO can be calibrated from the front panel or GPIB bus, it might also be used to sent ready status information from the OCXO to the counter - not sure, I am guessing. Seeing the schematic and the components on it would help figure it out.
If anyone can help out I would appreciate it.
Thanks,
Gerry
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I just checked the component list and found that the SPI bus is driving an AD7243 (http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD7243.pdf (http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD7243.pdf)) 12-bit DAC which I guess is what is used to trim the OCXO. The rest of the schematic would appear to be output buffers and local PSU's. It would still be useful to see a detailed schematic though....
Gerry
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Search for the clip. That one has readable schematics in it.
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Hi @free_electron I did try to search, I found a couple of documents directly from the Agilent site (link in the previous post) and the schematics are very readable apart form the one page that has the frequency reference option which is scanned in and very low res - this is why I posted the question - I was hoping someone might have a printed version they could scan in at a more workable res.
Gerry
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Get the clip for the 131, not the 132. The schematics are much more readable.
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@FreeElectron I tried that, I have both documents. Problem is, the 53131A manual (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6307EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6307EN.pdf)) does not include the schematic for the optional timebase module, the manual for the 53132A (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6308EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6308EN.pdf) ) does....but the OCXO module schematic page is unreadable, thats why I asked the question in the first place... |O
Gerry
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Bump...anyone? please.... :-//
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I built my own timebase now: http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-010-high-stability-timebase-option/ (http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-010-high-stability-timebase-option/)
Gerry
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I am going to get some PCB's made and possibly make some of these timebases up, if anyone is interested please post a comment on blog page so I can get a sense of the number of people interested either in a blank board or a ready made and ready to install 010 High Stability Timebase option
http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-010-high-stability-timebase-option/ (http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-010-high-stability-timebase-option/)
Thanks,
Gerry
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Meeee ! Two boards please...
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I have cloned the third channel ... Got the special amplifiers and the divider. I just need to send the board to itead to have it made.
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I have cloned the third channel ... Got the special amplifiers and the divider. I just need to send the board to itead to have it made.
I (correction Andy but I am re-laying out in Dip trace and am probably going to make a few) have also cloned the 3rd Channel, see here: http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-030-3ghz-channel-3-option-board/ (http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-030-3ghz-channel-3-option-board/)
Gerry
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Meeee ! Two boards please...
Would you mind posting a comment on the blog page link above, that way I have all interested folk in one place for counting.
Thanks
GErry
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I am going to get some PCB's made and possibly make some of these timebases up, if anyone is interested please post a comment on blog page so I can get a sense of the number of people interested either in a blank board or a ready made and ready to install 010 High Stability Timebase option
http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-010-high-stability-timebase-option/ (http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-010-high-stability-timebase-option/)
Thanks,
Gerry
Gerry ...
Any idea about the approx. price for a kit or a pcb ?
/Bingo
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I am going to get some PCB's made and possibly make some of these timebases up, if anyone is interested please post a comment on blog page so I can get a sense of the number of people interested either in a blank board or a ready made and ready to install 010 High Stability Timebase option
http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-010-high-stability-timebase-option/ (http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-010-high-stability-timebase-option/)
Thanks,
Gerry
Gerry ...
Any idea about the approx. price for a kit or a pcb ?
/Bingo
Hi Bingo,
It depends on volume, until I know how many its hard to know price-wise. This is not my living, its just a means to help fund the blog activity so they should not be too expensive.
Gerry
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I have cloned the third channel ... Got the special amplifiers and the divider. I just need to send the board to itead to have it made.
I (correction Andy but I am re-laying out in Dip trace and am probably going to make a few) have also cloned the 3rd Channel, see here: http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-030-3ghz-channel-3-option-board/ (http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-030-3ghz-channel-3-option-board/)
Gerry
andy's design is not a clone. it is modified. i have the real parts ( most of the real parts are obsolete but i managed to track em down. )
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I have cloned the third channel ... Got the special amplifiers and the divider. I just need to send the board to itead to have it made.
I (correction Andy but I am re-laying out in Dip trace and am probably going to make a few) have also cloned the 3rd Channel, see here: http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-030-3ghz-channel-3-option-board/ (http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-030-3ghz-channel-3-option-board/)
Gerry
andy's design is not a clone. it is modified. i have the real parts ( most of the real parts are obsolete but i managed to track em down. )
Thats correct, its not a direct "copy" of the HP one, its an implementation - as is my OCXO board. I see no issue with building a variation of a design and calling it a "clone" though, my first computer was an IBM AT Clone but it was not a chip-for-chip copy of an original IBM AT so I guess we are talking semantics, while its not a "clone" in the dictionary sense of the word, its an "alternative" equivalent functional option.
Gerry
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Oh.. Hmm i will need to look at your schematic then to see what you altered. I have the real hp oscillator module 11801. I thought you made aboard replicating the entire circuit.
For the rf front end , andy's board doesnt fit the machine properly. It doesnt have the holes in the right spot to mount it, the flatcable is 'messy'. Has a test been done if it is just as sensitive and works over the same range as the original ? Can it handle the same overload as the original ?
I don't mind that the circuit is not 100% identical, as long as it performs the same, or better..
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Oh.. Hmm i will need to look at your schematic then to see what you altered. I have the real hp oscillator module 11801. I thought you made aboard replicating the entire circuit.
For the rf front end , andy's board doesnt fit the machine properly. It doesnt have the holes in the right spot to mount it, the flatcable is 'messy'. Has a test been done if it is just as sensitive and works over the same range as the original ? Can it handle the same overload as the original ?
I don't mind that the circuit is not 100% identical, as long as it performs the same, or better..
Hi,
I am not sure about the performance exactly to be honest - I made a test (you can see in my video) to 1GHz and the board worked down to about 25Mhz and down to -26dbm so I am not sure how that compares to the original, the performance seems reasonable to me but I am no RF expert. Does that sound far off?
Fair point about the mounting holes, thats one of the reasons why I wanted to re-lay the board agin with all the right mounting holes.
As for the OCXO board, I did not re-create the HP board with e edge connector - I laid the board out to work with the OCXO's I had to hand. If I had an original I would have tried to accommodate it but I am not sure the edge connector is common and available now days.
The flat cable was a problem in Andy's board layout because he followed the pin numbering convention for IDC pin headers but HP did not! the ensuing messy wiring was the work-around for that. Again, another reason to re-lay the board.
Gerry
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Gerry/Andy,
If you guys decide to run a batch of 3Ghz option boards, count me in for one of those also!
Thanks
Andy (lots of Andy's around here :D)
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Gerry/Andy,
If you guys decide to run a batch of 3Ghz option boards, count me in for one of those also!
Thanks
Andy (lots of Andy's around here :D)
Sure thing, I will post here if we do. I will make the OCXO boards first though.
Gerry
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Gerry,
Not sure if this has already been addressed, but the schematic for the option 030 RF boards on your homepage has a serious drawing error: The MMICs needs to have a current limiting resistor in series with the RF choke. I suspect you must already be doing this, as running them directly from 12V will make them go *Poof* rather immediately. :D
Trying to decide whether to sign up for this project. :)
Edit: There may be another nitpick on that schematic: The DC blocking cap at the RF input ought to be between the protection diodes and the MMIC input. Otherwise one of the diodes are likely to be forward biased by the resistors inside the first MMIC, offsetting the DC bias point.
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Gerry,
Not sure if this has already been addressed, but the schematic for the option 030 RF boards on your homepage has a serious drawing error: The MMICs needs to have a current limiting resistor in series with the RF choke. I suspect you must already be doing this, as running them directly from 12V will make them go *Poof* rather immediately. :D
Trying to decide whether to sign up for this project. :)
Hi there, yes I knew about that, I was drawing it more block diagram style to explain the basic operating principle, I did not include the resistors although I was aware they should be there. I did not update the hand-drawn schematic because thats what I used in the explanation in the video. I will put a note on the blog page to avoid any confusion.
Thanks
Gerry
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Gerry,
Not sure if this has already been addressed, but the schematic for the option 030 RF boards on your homepage has a serious drawing error: The MMICs needs to have a current limiting resistor in series with the RF choke. I suspect you must already be doing this, as running them directly from 12V will make them go *Poof* rather immediately. :D
Trying to decide whether to sign up for this project. :)
Edit: There may be another nitpick on that schematic: The DC blocking cap at the RF input ought to be between the protection diodes and the MMIC input. Otherwise one of the diodes are likely to be forward biased by the resistors inside the first MMIC, offsetting the DC bias point.
Blog page updated...
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Hi
Does anyone have schematics options 050, 124?
The challenge is particularly option 124
Auctions are not available.
At the dealer is better not to ask (probably cost well over $ 1,000).
Maybe someone has pictures? these options?
Marcin
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Hi
Does anyone have schematics options 050, 124?
The challenge is particularly option 124
Auctions are not available.
At the dealer is better not to ask (probably cost well over $ 1,000).
Maybe someone has pictures? these options?
Marcin
Those would be interesting to see, I suspect they are much the same, just higher rated MMC's and a different pre-scaller, or perhaps even two pre-scalers.
Gerry
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I think so too
If I get guidance - specifications J2 connector, I just can undertake the design of such a module.
It will not be easy (availability of items) but you can take a chance?
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Gerry,
I have sent a PM to you!
EV
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Hi,
The document “Agilent 53132A Component Level Information” (5989-6308EN.pdf) contains partial information about the 12,4 GHz Prescaler (page 38-42).
This module consists of two subassemblies:
-Subassembly with front panel N connector, protection, input amplifier and 1st prescaler
-Base board with power supply + filtering for input amplifier/1st prescaler and 2nd prescaler
Unfortunately, only the second subassembly is documented… :'(
I have never seen this option and I couldn’t find any decent picture of it, so I have no idea about what components were used in the first subassembly.
Based on the 2nd prescaler specs and configuration, it’s easy to figure out the divide ratio of the 1st prescaler. It’s also not that hard to design a suitable amplifier and input protection, so it should be possible to design a “clone” 12 GHz prescaler for this family of HP/Agilent counters.
Some time ago, facing the need to accurately measure a 5 GHz signal, I thought about building a prescaler for my 53131A, so I searched the web for some useful information – All I could find was a couple of posts (time-nuts IIRC) about a non-successful attempt to build a working clone of 12 GHz prescaler…
The problem seems to be the recognition of the prescaler – apparently, in addition to the physical installation of the module, some kind of “SW activation” or HW modification is needed.
Analyzing the schematics, prescaler option connector at the main board contains 2 signals apparently used to identify the connected module (CH3CODE0 and CH3CODE1). I don’t know if the person who tried to clone the prescaler “played” with these ID bits.
It also seems that a 0 ohm resistor will have to be installed in the main board to have +5V present on the connector.
In summary:
Too many open questions and few answers + missing information. :(
I’ve just ditched the idea of building a clone and ended up building an external “divide by 1000” 12 GHz prescaler that works perfectly. :-+
This prescaler is based on Hittite’s HMC363S8G and is very cheap to build.
I have no idea about the sensitivity of this prescaler, but it should be close to HMC363S8G specs, degraded only by the connector + PCB attenuation.
This is my “home made” 12 GHz Prescaler:
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Gerry,
I have sent a PM to you!
EV
Just replied :)
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Hi,
The document “Agilent 53132A Component Level Information” (5989-6308EN.pdf) contains partial information about the 12,4 GHz Prescaler (page 38-42).
This module consists of two subassemblies:
-Subassembly with front panel N connector, protection, input amplifier and 1st prescaler
-Base board with power supply + filtering for input amplifier/1st prescaler and 2nd prescaler
Unfortunately, only the second subassembly is documented… :'(
I have never seen this option and I couldn’t find any decent picture of it, so I have no idea about what components were used in the first subassembly.
Based on the 2nd prescaler specs and configuration, it’s easy to figure out the divide ratio of the 1st prescaler. It’s also not that hard to design a suitable amplifier and input protection, so it should be possible to design a “clone” 12 GHz prescaler for this family of HP/Agilent counters.
Some time ago, facing the need to accurately measure a 5 GHz signal, I thought about building a prescaler for my 53131A, so I searched the web for some useful information – All I could find was a couple of posts (time-nuts IIRC) about a non-successful attempt to build a working clone of 12 GHz prescaler…
The problem seems to be the recognition of the prescaler – apparently, in addition to the physical installation of the module, some kind of “SW activation” or HW modification is needed.
Analyzing the schematics, prescaler option connector at the main board contains 2 signals apparently used to identify the connected module (CH3CODE0 and CH3CODE1). I don’t know if the person who tried to clone the prescaler “played” with these ID bits.
It also seems that a 0 ohm resistor will have to be installed in the main board to have +5V present on the connector.
In summary:
Too many open questions and few answers + missing information. :(
I’ve just ditched the idea of building a clone and ended up building an external “divide by 1000” 12 GHz prescaler that works perfectly. :-+
This prescaler is based on Hittite’s HMC363S8G and is very cheap to build.
I have no idea about the sensitivity of this prescaler, but it should be close to HMC363S8G specs, degraded only by the connector + PCB attenuation.
This is my “home made” 12 GHz Prescaler:
Thanks useful info, thank you. I am pretty sure that the ID bits should define the pre-scaller ratio, with four bits I will guess its 1.3Ghz, 3Ghz, 5Ghz and 12Ghz. Next time I have a counter apart I will have a play around and find out.
As for building a 12Ghz prescaller, even if I wanted to I have nothing that can generate 12Ghz so I could not verify it - I am not an RF guy :(
Gerry
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As for building a 12Ghz prescaller, even if I wanted to I have nothing that can generate 12Ghz so I could not verify it - I am not an RF guy :(
Maybe one of these used rubidium standards from eBay can help you there? There is a microvave signal, applied to the resonance cell. If the RB oscillator is locked, that frequency should be about 6.834... GHz.
The FE-5680A are on eBay for cheap sometimes, i paid around 60 Euros for mine about 2 years or so ago.
Greetings,
Chris
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I am also trying to build a divider up to 12 GHz
The information in this case is described on page Gerry.
http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-010-high-stability-timebase-option/ # comments (http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-010-high-stability-timebase-option/ # comments)
The description is also on my website
http://www.rflab.pl/projekty/DIVIDER12GHZ/DIV12GHZ.htm (http://www.rflab.pl/projekty/DIVIDER12GHZ/DIV12GHZ.htm)
If anyone has suggestions, please write them
I'm open to any comments.
Assumptions:
Work for 12-13 GHz
The divider /128
Sensitivity -35 dBm
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There's a 3GHz prescaler on ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3GHz-Prescaler-for-Agilent-53131A-53132A-Counters-/111185036171?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e325038b (http://www.ebay.com/itm/3GHz-Prescaler-for-Agilent-53131A-53132A-Counters-/111185036171?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e325038b)
Not sure if it's original..
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Doesn't look original - no HP / Agilent logo. Seems to use a linear regulator instead of zener. Also doesn't use a pcb connector for the RF.
So if I was bidding on that - I'd like to know the details of the components , mmic , clamp diodes , prescaler. I'd also like to know the performance specs.
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for $ 100 like the original? HP Agilent?
without exaggeration
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Does anyone can give me a PCB dimensions and spacing of holes? (sized PCB)
Please :)
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Hi
Updated the diagram
There is also a PCB design
http://www.rflab.pl/projekty/DIVIDER12GHZ/DIV12GHZ.htm (http://www.rflab.pl/projekty/DIVIDER12GHZ/DIV12GHZ.htm)
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Correction of ideas ...
One.
Service manual HP (Agilent) is a joke.
On each side of something else....
See pages 8, 20, 39, numbering pin connector J2 on each side of the other :)...
Two.
The divisor to 3 GHz by 128
But it's 12 GHz should be 512, the meter detects this by J2-9 J2-10 (I think)
and ...
Apply so different divider instead HMC394 will use uPB1505. This is a divide by 64
So the divider (I assume input frequency 12 GHz) HMC363 (/ 8) will be 1.5 GHz, then the divider uPB1505 (/ 64) is the frequency of 23 .. MHz
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The site is the Latest Version PCB, if anyone has any comments on this?
At the moment there are no?
http://www.rflab.pl/projekty/DIVIDER12GHZ/DIV12GHZ.htm (http://www.rflab.pl/projekty/DIVIDER12GHZ/DIV12GHZ.htm)
Now I took care of the execution of the PCB.
I have a little problem with getting laminate or RO4003C Rogers RO4350.
But somehow it'll get
If it would work,(all materials will be made ??available for free of course), if anyone is interested ?
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Hi
Does anyone know how to force the division by 512 meter HP 53131 (2)?
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Does anyone is going to build this in Italy?
A made a check with it.rs-offline.com and the list (with all minimal order quantity) is something like 70€ shipped (with no connectors and flat cable).
Any advice to get "all" those parts cheaper here?
D.
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(http://www.rflab.pl/projekty/DIVIDER12GHZ/res/DIV_12GHZ_07_resize.jpg)
(http://www.rflab.pl/projekty/DIVIDER12GHZ/res/DIV_12GHZ_06_resize.jpg)
(http://www.rflab.pl/projekty/DIVIDER12GHZ/res/DIV_12GHZ_04_resize.jpg)
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Last update operation divider
http://www.rflab.pl/projekty/DIVIDER12GHZ/DIV12GHZ.htm (http://www.rflab.pl/projekty/DIVIDER12GHZ/DIV12GHZ.htm)
And a new project divider to 26 GHz
http://www.rflab.pl/projekty/DIVIDER26GHZ/divder%20up%20to%2026%20GHz.htm (http://www.rflab.pl/projekty/DIVIDER26GHZ/divder%20up%20to%2026%20GHz.htm)
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What is the current status of these 030 option clones?
I can see there are two guys selling these on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-53131A-52181A-53132A-Clone-Option-030-3GHz-Frequency-Counter-/171761138421 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-53131A-52181A-53132A-Clone-Option-030-3GHz-Frequency-Counter-/171761138421)
and
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3GHz-Prescaler-for-HP-Agilent-53131A-53132A-53181A-Counters-/111756351935 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/3GHz-Prescaler-for-HP-Agilent-53131A-53132A-53181A-Counters-/111756351935)
The first seems little bit more professionally done (soldering and the SMA connector). Also somewhat more sensitive according to "specs" there..
Has anybody bought these?
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Hi
I was wondering if anyone here has a 53132A that could provide a good Hi-Res Photo of the main board.?
Or if anyone happened to have a totally trashed board I could get from them that would also work.
I've got one photo but not very good. Just been trying to compare and see what would be required to hack a 53131A board to a 53132A
Now if anyones knows if it's possible or not and could save me time investigating that would be helpful as well
I know 2xAD7580JP, 1xXC3042A-7PC84C are the main differences but I'm sure there are others.
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What is the current status of these 030 option clones?
I can see there are two guys selling these on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-53131A-52181A-53132A-Clone-Option-030-3GHz-Frequency-Counter-/171761138421 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-53131A-52181A-53132A-Clone-Option-030-3GHz-Frequency-Counter-/171761138421)
and
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3GHz-Prescaler-for-HP-Agilent-53131A-53132A-53181A-Counters-/111756351935 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/3GHz-Prescaler-for-HP-Agilent-53131A-53132A-53181A-Counters-/111756351935)
The first seems little bit more professionally done (soldering and the SMA connector). Also somewhat more sensitive according to "specs" there..
Has anybody bought these?
I purchased three of the clone 030 boards from the first link - two for work and one for home. All worked perfectly.
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What is the current status of these 030 option clones?
I can see there are two guys selling these on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-53131A-52181A-53132A-Clone-Option-030-3GHz-Frequency-Counter-/171761138421 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-53131A-52181A-53132A-Clone-Option-030-3GHz-Frequency-Counter-/171761138421)
and
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3GHz-Prescaler-for-HP-Agilent-53131A-53132A-53181A-Counters-/111756351935 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/3GHz-Prescaler-for-HP-Agilent-53131A-53132A-53181A-Counters-/111756351935)
The first seems little bit more professionally done (soldering and the SMA connector). Also somewhat more sensitive according to "specs" there..
Has anybody bought these?
I purchased three of the clone 030 boards from the first link - two for work and one for home. All worked perfectly.
Thanks for the heads-up! I noticed that Signal Path vlog had reviewed the 030 option board from the second link and he was happy with it, so I guess they both are ok.
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On another note, I purchased Gerry's OXCO option and it works great. Very easy to install and get going and Gerry was very helpfully and replied very quickly to messages
I highly recommend getting the OXCO from Gerry.
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Yeah Gerry is great... another happy customer here (not for the OXCO thow). Anyway I am planning just for fun to put a Rubidium 10Mhz OXCO in the 53132A... it is just a nice idea in my head... I didn´t designed nothing yet... so it could be a jump in nothing.
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I purchased Gerry's High Stability Oscillator and it works very good. Also purchased the 030 prescaler option for Poland and it also seems to work fine up to as high as my sig gen can operate.
Gary K8IZ
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Hi
I was wondering if anyone here has a 53132A that could provide a good Hi-Res Photo of the main board.?
Or if anyone happened to have a totally trashed board I could get from them that would also work.
I've got one photo but not very good. Just been trying to compare and see what would be required to hack a 53131A board to a 53132A
Now if anyones knows if it's possible or not and could save me time investigating that would be helpful as well
I know 2xAD7580JP, 1xXC3042A-7PC84C are the main differences but I'm sure there are others.
I had my 53132A open to replace the timebase (again), and took some pictures. Sorry, the quality isn't great.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5y8psm4keqcvqlr/AAA82ApH-6AeUKMqwPnYpKOPa?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5y8psm4keqcvqlr/AAA82ApH-6AeUKMqwPnYpKOPa?dl=0)
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@max-bit
what happened with your 12 and 26 ghz boards.
I've checked your site and last update was in 2013, did you ever produce the boards? I'd love to try the 12ghz board out though I can't get that high. I've got a R&S SMIQ for 6ghz but currently can test to 3 ghz (actually about 3.1 works)