Author Topic: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard  (Read 52046 times)

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Offline schopi68

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2015, 07:54:33 am »
The distance from main board to the top is 33 mm. Distance to the side of case is 28 mm (the case is curved so this is the smallest distance.

great to hear that, the heat sink i use for the power regulator has a height of 25 mm. So my ocxo could also be used (but would need to replace the fuse on it by a resistor to keep power on-current under control - otherwise the cap on the counters main board would charge the cap on my board with a uncontrolled high current each time the power switch is depressed - but it looks as if there is no continous power available, so maybe an ocxo isn't the best choice for this device).

Have a question also. There are two main filter caps. Both of them have one negative lead and two positive leads. The 4700 uF axial has the two positive leads going to two two different traces, and the 2200 uF radial has the two positive leads going to a single trace (but on the schematic it does not indicate this). If I might want to replace these going forward, what is the designation to specify in the parts search engine of places like Mouser? I am not familiar with caps like these with two positive leads that aren't identified on the case as such. Does that means their are two complete capacitors inside them even though it does not specifically say so on the outside?

In most cases the third pin is just for mechanical stabilization of the cap (the one placed on the metal-plated side). Without it, the cap would move during soldering or fall of during vibrational tests. Interesting to see that even this stuff had a Patent some time ago: http://www.google.com/patents/US4763227

So if you need to replace the cap with a more modern one it wouldn't be a problem to use a 2-pin cap. If this is still very big in size it could easily be glued with a small amount of hot glue to get it mechanical stable.
 

Online xrunner

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2015, 12:09:27 pm »
In most cases the third pin is just for mechanical stabilization of the cap (the one placed on the metal-plated side). Without it, the cap would move during soldering or fall of during vibrational tests. Interesting to see that even this stuff had a Patent some time ago: http://www.google.com/patents/US4763227

Ah OK good to know that.

Was doing some testing yesterday, and found that even though the unit is spec'ed to 100 MHz it will go into the 2 meter ham bands very well, as shown in the pic (last digits were changing so they look messy). Transmitting on 144.000 MHz.

Also hooked a small antenna to the Osc. test point and was able to zero-beat the internal 10 MHz ref to WWV on same freq. using my ham/shortwave receiver, per the procedure used by W2AEW Was just a touch off but very close. If anyone wants a good freq, counter for the ranges this covers it's a very good piece of gear!



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Offline schopi68

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2015, 12:31:20 pm »
yes, these units are scaling up to a lot more than specified. From it's bigger brother, the 5316B i know that it scales up to 180 MHz (and more) - this is likely the same for the 5315a (input circuit is identical for both units). Only the input sensitivity may be completely out of spec. :)
 

Offline cpu_bach

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2016, 08:39:37 am »
amc184 kindly sent me his PCB for my HP-5316A. I had to mount OCXO slightly above the PCB surface, because original OCXO's leads were too short to directly solder on the board. I confirmed stable operation of the assembled module. I am waiting for the delivery of standoffs which are not popular in ISO standard country.
 Thanks a lot, amc184! 
 

Offline Smith

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2016, 03:17:11 pm »
I replaced mine with a stable high quality TCXO, works like a charm! I just used a standard header, some test PCB and 2 stand-offs to create my own PCB. Next time its open I'll take some pictures (Of course I forgot to).

It's a verry nice uit to work with. Lots of options for measurements, nice display. Only thing I dislike is it's enormous length. Oh well, gues it fits my HP 8116A function generator  ^-^
Trying is the first step towards failure
 

Offline cpu_bach

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2016, 02:49:57 pm »
 After receiving the stand-offs, I mounted OCXO board in my HP5316A. IC heatsink comes very close to HP-IB board, but there is a clearance.
 

Offline amc184Topic starter

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2016, 05:13:01 am »
Looks good, shame your OCXO came with such short legs.  I would have used a smaller heatsink for U101, but if it fits it works.  I'm in a metric country, so I would have rather used metric standoffs as well, but it's driven by the imperial threaded inserts in the mainboard.  I think at least one person used a smaller diameter metric standoff with a nut, using the inserts like a plain hole.

And yeah, for a half width unit it's really deep.
 
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Offline wmactor

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2016, 03:40:08 pm »

I have some spare PCBs as well, if you have a 5316A and want one PM me.  I think it should work in a 5316B as well.

---------

Thanks for sending me one of your boards, amc184 - much appreciated! I finally received the MV-85 OCXO module from China, and assembled the circuit.  It fit perfectly into my 5316B, calibrated well, and is running very stable.

Here are a few pictures...

The first photo shows the assembled board, and the second is a shot of it installed in my 5316B.  The third is an overall view of the 5316B with the module installed, running a self test - the original HP oscillator is on the table to the left of the unit.  The fourth photo is my 3336C generator (with its original HP OCXO installed) sending a signal of 59,932,416.9 Hz to the 5316B, and the counter displaying it accurately!

Thanks again, Anton, for all of your effort on this project!

Regards,

Wayne
Toronto, Canada
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 07:29:38 pm by wmactor »
 

Offline kj7e

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2018, 11:49:10 pm »
Thought I would add some photos of a recent addition, although its the B version.  I found a clean 5316B with option 003 (1GHz Channel C) and a parts only 5316B with option 004 (High Stability OCTX).  The Oven and voltage regulator in the parts unit worked perfectly so they where transplanted.  Even though the original blue Sprague power supply caps seemed okay, I replaced then with some slightly higher capacity Nichicon caps, Digikey part numbers below;
1   1   493-1312-ND   UVZ1E223MRD   CAP ALUM 22000UF 20% 25V RADIAL      0   4.25000   $4.25
2   1   493-1326-ND   UVZ1V682MRD   CAP ALUM 6800UF 20% 35V RADIAL      0   3.14000   $3.14







Did they really have to make it so long?


Option 004;










Power supply caps replaced;




Input and option 003 board;



 
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Online xrunner

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2018, 02:09:52 am »
Nice 5316B. I got one last year and it's a great unit.  :-+
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Offline Robby

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2019, 09:30:56 am »
While on the subject, what of the availability of any more of these OCXO boards?
Got a 5316a in need of an upgrade.
Please shoot me a message or a post - please?
Thanks!
Just a Yank living in Silicon Valley, California

Cool Test Gear: Hp 8656B, Tektronix 465, Fluke 1900A, Hp 5316A, and a 10mhz Rubidium clock standard
 

Offline Luthor2k

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2020, 05:02:17 am »
PCBs incoming. Am fixing up my 5316B and have just ordered five of amc184's Morion MV103a boards made up by PCBWay. The remaining four are up for grabs if anyone is interested. Will post when I've got them on hand and tested.

Cheers!
 

Offline Luthor2k

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2020, 08:50:57 pm »
PCBs arrived and installed, works great. Thanks amc184! I've got four boards spare now if anyone wants one.
 

Offline pinpassion

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #63 on: June 09, 2020, 09:17:24 am »
Hi,

I'm new to EEVBlog and I'm trying to purchase one of the spare OCXO boards you have. I got the board files from Anton, and will have them made if i need to, but I would prefer to purchase one of your spares if i can. I sent a previous message to you, but did not hear back. i don't know if you received it.

Thanks for your consideration.

Mike
 
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Offline Luthor2k

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2020, 07:35:04 pm »
I am shipping a pcb out today, still have three up for grabs though no more trim pots on hand.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 12:44:47 am by Luthor2k »
 
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Offline Luthor2k

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2020, 12:45:38 am »
A second PCB is going out tomorrow. There are two remaining and parts minus the trim pot.
 

Offline Luthor2k

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2020, 10:19:45 pm »
Only two boards remaining now!
 

Offline Luthor2k

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2020, 02:21:33 am »
I received a questing from someone about the TCXO board install in my counter and thought I'd repost here for all:

"I have a question about  mounting and using the OXCO board in the HP 5316B. Many of the users of the board were using them in a 5316A. There are significant differences in that earlier model. I know you have a "B" model too, and your posted photo is in that unit. Apparently the "A" model had an external factory oscillator, so it was a matter of removing that board, and plugging in the replacement. In my unit, (and I assume yours) there is a crystal oscillator soldered on to the main board that supplies the 10MHZ reference sinewave. I don't know if the replacement board will mount over that factory crystal, or if I need to desolder it from the main board prior to installing the new board in the socket. I'm not sure if the firmware detects the oscillator and switches to it, ignoring the on board oscillator?

My on board crystal actually has a zip tie holding it down tightly to the main board , in addition to the fact it is soldered to the PC board. Did you desolder your factory crystal prior to installing the OXCO board, or is yours mounted over the on board crystal?"

My answer to this is; nope, nothing desoldered! I did however remove an oscillator board from my counter. A photo of the board I removed is attached. During the process I also replaced the two large electrolytic power supply caps. Nothing else was changed.
 
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Offline pinpassion

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2020, 02:30:52 pm »
Hi Gang,

There is something I wanted to clarify on my particular HP 5316B counter. I think I may have a later unit then some or all of the posters so far wishing to add a OCXO oscillator board to their unit for added accuracy and stability. My "B" model does not have a daughter board as a factory internal oscillator. It has an on-board crystal soldered and secured to the main board with a zip tie. To the best of my knowledge, this is a factory installed crystal, and my unit never had an oscillator as an external board to the main unit. I am including pictures of this crystal on the main unit in both top and bottom photos. Seeing is believing..My unit serial number is 3005A07XXX.

I am wondering if I need to desolder this crystal to remove the 10MHZ signal, or if the firmware will recognize the external board plugged into the  6 pin connector and switch to it's signal for calibration? The crystal is mounted directly over one of the mounting holes for the daughter board, but i could use an alternate mounting arrangement if needed for the replacement OCXO. I will remove the crystal if i have to, but would prefer to leave it there if I can.

Also, if anyone has the feet that were mounted to the cabinet bottom and are willing to part with them, please let me know. My unit was rack mounted, so they are missing. I especially would like the front feet that had the swing down bail for elevating the front off the bench.

Thanks,

Mike
 

Offline Luthor2k

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2020, 05:25:45 am »
Hey Pinpassion, attached is a photo of my counter, no 10mhz crystal to be found. Perhaps chase the trace? Those 4-pin XOs have low Z outputs IIRC...
 
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Offline amc184Topic starter

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2020, 10:59:45 am »
Hi Mike,

That's interesting, it seems your unit is different to the others.  Looking at Luthor's unit, it looks like the large DIP packaged crystal oscillator might be socketed using individual pin receptacles.  This would also explain why it is zip tied down.  It should be easy to remove (no desoldering needed), which is good because I think you'll need to.

I've attached this section of the circuit below.  J2 at the left is the connector that you'll plug the OCXO board into.  Pin 2 is the output of that board.  Y1 is the crystal oscillator installed in your mainboard, and after the buffer this joins into the same net used by the OCXO output (which I've highlighted yellow).  You wouldn't want both clock sources driving the same net, so Y1 must go.

Besides that, I think you need to use the hole right underneath Y1 to mount the OCXO board, right?
 
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Offline pinpassion

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2020, 12:01:14 pm »
Hi Luthor2K,

Thanks for removing your board and taking a picture. Very interesting! You have the circuitry for the on-board crystal (Y1) but not the crystal! It's place on the mainboard can be seen, so the pads are there, and the same holes that are on my board where the zip tie is holding it down. You even have the oscillator adjust trimpot. What I think may explain this is when they introduced the "B" counter model, HP wanted to exhaust the supply of the external boards that were used on the "A" model, and when that was done, they soldered the crystal to the main board to replace the daughter board entirely. This must have been the plan when the PC board was manufactured and that explains the pads and circuitry.

I downloaded a service manual scan online for the 5316B, and had a look at the schematic. The on-board crystal is shown. Examining the schematic, it looks like I will have to desolder my crystal to take advantage of the OCXO board before I install it in J2 on the mainboard. If I didn't, both 10MHZ signals would be injected. There are ways around doing it, like lifting pin 2 from the OXCO board and running that into the external input and keeping the rear panel switch in the external position, but I think I will just bite the bullet and remove the crystal. If I did wire the OCXO into the external input, the one interesting benefit is i would be able to switch back and forth to the on-board crystal and the OCXO board easily to compare both references..Nah...I know the OCXO board is going to be a lot better.

Thanks for taking the picture. It helped me to understand the whole external oscillator issue.

Mike
 

Offline pinpassion

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2020, 12:16:46 pm »
Hi AMC184,

Wow..Our posts crossed!! You came to the same conclusions as me! I was hoping the crystal was socketed on the mainboard, but as you can see in the board bottom photo, it is soldered...OR, is that the pins to the socket that are soldered...? I don't know!! I am hoping it is a socket!! We will see after I remove the zip tie. Unfortunately, there is an explanation as to why HP may have used the zip tie outside of securing it to a socket. From what I understand, crystals are mechanically vulnerable, and can even be influenced by their relative position. The zip tie could have been used to stabilize it on the cheap. I hope it is your assumption that prevails! Then I could just pop it out.

Any yes, the crystal does get in the way of one of the daughter board mounting holes. Removing it would solve the mounting problem as well!

Thanks again for your help!!! I have a board and some components on the way from Luthor2K. The MV85 I have coming from Ebay. Once I have the board ready, I will cut the zip tie, and the soldered or socketed question will be answered. I will let you know!

Mike
 

Offline amc184Topic starter

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #73 on: July 04, 2020, 08:40:06 am »
Mike has asked me for a better bill of materials for the PCB, and I thought I'd post it here so anyone building this PCB in the future can see it.

C101 and C105: 330µF 35V Ø10mm THT low impedance electrolytic capacitor
Nippon Chemicon EKZE350ELL331MJ16S
Element14, Mouser, Digikey

C102, C104 and C106: 100nF 100V THT 5mm pitch metalised PET capacitor
Wima MKS2D031001A00KSSD or MKS2D031001A00MSSD
Element14, Mouser, Digikey

C103: 10µF 63V Ø5mm THT general purpose electrolytic capacitor
Nippon Chemicon EKMG630ELL100ME11D
Element14, Mouser, Digikey

C107: 1nF 400V THT 5mm pitch metalised PET capacitor
Wima FKS2G011001A00KSSD or FKS2D011001A00MSSD
Element14, Mouser, Digikey

J101: 2.54mm pitch THT pin header, 10.8mm total length, 6 way
Amphenol 68000-204HLF
Element14, Mouser, Digikey

R101 and R105: 100R DIN0204 size THT metal film resistor
Welwyn MFR3-100RFC or Vishay MBA02040C1000FCT00
Element14, Mouser, Digikey

R102: 680R DIN0204 size THT metal film resistor
Welwyn MFR3-680RFC or Vishay MBA02040C6800FCT00
Element14, Mouser, Digikey

R103: 560R DIN0204 size THT metal film resistor
Welwyn MFR3-560RFC or Vishay MBA02040C5600FCT00
Element14, Mouser, Digikey

R104: 20kR 25 turn THT potentiometer with staggered leads and side adjustment screw
Bourns 3296Z-1-203LF
Element14, Mouser, Digikey

U101: LM1084, LM1085 or LM1086 type TO220 adjustable linear voltage regulator
ST Micro LD1086BV
Element14, Mouser, Digikey

X101: Morion MV85A C20F-5V-SIN
I bought mine on eBay, at the time these were a compact, cheap and power efficient option with the right output type and level.

Other things you'll need:
  • Two UNC6-32 threaded spacers, male to female type with a 7/16" body length to mount the board.  You'll also need a couple of 6-32UNC machine screws.
  • An M3x10mm machine screw and two M3 nuts.
  • A TO-220 heatsink, such as a Wakefield 274-2AB Element14, Mouser, Digikey.

When mounting the heatsink the M3 machine screw should go through from the underside of the board, then have the following stack; PCB, M3 nut, heatsink, TO-220 voltage regulator, M3 nut.  The first nut is important, it spaces the heatsink off the PCB.  Make sure the head of the screw isn't so large that it's bigger than the diameter of the area clear of groundplane on the PCB.  You don't need to use insulating hardware to isolate the voltage regulator from the heatsink unless it's touching something conductive, which it shouldn't be.
 
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Offline amc184Topic starter

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Re: HP 5316A Teardown and Frequency Standard
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2020, 11:22:27 pm »
In the bill of material I previously posted I used an adjustable voltage regulator, but it's possible to use a fixed one as well.

In the original design an adjustable LM1086 is used, which needs a resistive divider to set its output voltage.  R101 and the parallel combination of R102 and R103 form this divider - I used 560 and 680R in parallel to make a divider for 5V without having to use anything other than standard E12 series resistors.  C103 is optional, improving ripple rejection.  The ability to add C103 is one of the advantages of an adjustable regulator - most fixed regulators do not give access to the feedback node to add this capacitor (though some do).

When using a fixed voltage regulator R101, R102, R103 and C103 are not needed.  Pin 1 of U101 should also be connected to ground, the neatest way to do that is to fit a zero ohm jumper to the R102 pattern.  So the changes to the bill of materials would be:

C103: do not fit.

R101 and R103: do not fit.

R102: DIN0204 size jumper
Vishay MBA02040Z0000ZCT00
Element14, Mouser, Digikey
Or use a piece of wire, but the jumper will look neater.

U101: LM1084, LM1085 or LM1086 type TO220 fixed 5V linear voltage regulator
Texas Instruments LM1086CT-5.0
Element14, Mouser, Digikey


A couple of things to note about voltage regulator choice in this circuit:
  • Both the fixed and adjustable versions of LM1084 / LM1085 / LM1086 regulators use the same pinout; 1: adjust or ground, 2: output, 3: input.  This is the same pinout as many adjustable resistors (such as the LM317), but is not the same pinout as most fixed regulators.  For example, the LM7805 uses 1: input, 2: ground, 3: output.
  • Most linear voltage regulators are damaged if the voltage at the output becomes higher than the input voltage.  In this circuit this may happen if something was shorted on the input rail, taking it down to 0V while C105 is still charged.  An LM1084 / LM1085 / LM1086 regulator builds a protection diode in to avoid this situation, but many regulators do not.  When using an LM317 or similar these need to be provided externally.  This board does not include reverse bias diodes, so for this reason I would avoid using the LM317 or similar here.

 
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