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HP 5335A Timer / Counter - Anything i should know?

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tkamiya:
Ah, thank you. 

I have naked rubidium oscillators as well as cased ones from Efratom.  On one version, adjustment hole wasn't available as it was completely covered with heatsink (without an access hole!)  So I did the same thing.  Glued a multi-turn pot to inside and punched a small access hole on top cabinet.  Just for a good measure, put a sticker on it.

I need to do your modification to my 5335... 

0culus:

--- Quote from: Dr. Frank on February 21, 2019, 03:51:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: tkamiya on February 21, 2019, 03:30:24 pm ---I might have exponent expression wrong.  My measurement was : 10,000,000,00x where x changes.  That's 10^-9? or 10^-10?  Input is 10MHz.  I always mess this up!

The GPS I have is PRS-10 and FRS-C.  I intend to use former and slave it to GPS.  To avoid any interactions, power supply will be linear and external.  So it'll be shielded from temp change and magnetic field.   

I am revamping my house standard.

I was also surprised how much Rb drifts.  It took good 24 hours to completely stabilize.

--- End quote ---

That change would be x * 10-10.
The un-modified 5335A has 4s max. Gate Time, so only 10-9 will be displayed/resolved.
So maybe you should have a 2nd look, what you really measured.

My FRS-C needs about one week, until it has stabilized to parts in 10-11.. that drift-time always depends on the limit criterion used.
I have provided an external potentiometer to adjust the Rb to 2*10-12, but drifts are on the order of 1*10-11.

--- End quote ---


You can open the gate manually to get the full digit capability. I think there might be a way to control that over HP-IB?

Dr. Frank:
Yeah, both ways work.

It was a pleasure for me to discuss and measure, as I learnt a lot new about the  behaviour of the 10811.

PS.. and my 5335A now got a genuine Cal Sticker, as it's now freshly adjusted to 3*10-10

tkamiya:
You had me confused for half a day....

The reason I have 10 digit number is because my setup is as follows.

DUT is HP5335A with 10811.  It's clock out is connected to ANOTHER COUNTER
This ANOTHER COUNTER gets its clock from redundant GPSDO OXCO and/or Rb

So I am just treating HP5335A as an oscillator. 

I've also done the other way around as well.  But I gain an extra digit doing it the way I described it.  Also it's newer and faster. 

I've never ever looked into behavior of oscillator this much, and witness its drift.  Case open/close thing was an eye opener.  Surprising how sensitive it is!  So, Dr. Frank, are you satisfied with performance of my 10811 now that we know it's actually 10^-10, not -9?  Should I pursue this further?  Like I said earlier, in a week or so, I'll have another HP5335A.  It will be fun to compare responses side-by-side.  Also in planning stage is Rb with GPS.  I'll have to do something with ambient temperature changes.  My lab is the hottest room in the house.  I'll have to make a small compartment and insulate it to see what it will do.

Thank you very much for your instructions.  It helped great deal.

Dr. Frank:

--- Quote from: tkamiya on February 22, 2019, 12:56:12 am ---You had me confused for half a day....

The reason I have 10 digit number is because my setup is as follows.

DUT is HP5335A with 10811.  It's clock out is connected to ANOTHER COUNTER
This ANOTHER COUNTER gets its clock from redundant GPSDO OXCO and/or Rb

So I am just treating HP5335A as an oscillator. 

I've also done the other way around as well.  But I gain an extra digit doing it the way I described it.  Also it's newer and faster. 

I've never ever looked into behavior of oscillator this much, and witness its drift.  Case open/close thing was an eye opener.  Surprising how sensitive it is!  So, Dr. Frank, are you satisfied with performance of my 10811 now that we know it's actually 10^-10, not -9?  Should I pursue this further?  Like I said earlier, in a week or so, I'll have another HP5335A.  It will be fun to compare responses side-by-side.  Also in planning stage is Rb with GPS.  I'll have to do something with ambient temperature changes.  My lab is the hottest room in the house.  I'll have to make a small compartment and insulate it to see what it will do.

Thank you very much for your instructions.  It helped great deal.

--- End quote ---

Sorry, that I confused you, I was not aware of that.  :-//

Anyhow, your 10811 is definitely working fine, as thermal drift is down in the 10-10 ballpark. At that resolution it was more or less a go/nogo test of the oven, what we have discussed so far, and a bit beyond, very interesting also for me!

If you want to dig deeper into the performance, you'll have to use different techniques and evaluations.. It's then all about 'Stability'.
So you might compare the 10811 against the GPSDO or Rb, using Allan Deviation (ADEV) statistics. This gives you the relative stability figures on different timescales.
"Relative" is important, because on short time scales, most free running OCXO are superior over GPSDO, and even Rb, due to the high jitter of the GPSDO signal, and of the noisy Rb signal. See ADEV diagrams from different time-nuts, how the different standards perform, relative to MASER or Cs standards.

http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/manyadev.gif
http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/adev-avg/

The residual x*10-10 variance might also arise from GPSDO instability, instead from the 10811 itself, if you were using effective Gate time of 1sec, or less, only.

You may instead use time interval methods, on 1pps signals derived from these standards, and a resolution of 1ns for T.I. (like the 5335A) is already  sufficient for that.

Do you have a Fluke /  Philipps counter, or an agilent 53131/132A, or even a KS 53220/230A? These feature better interpolation techniques, like 100ps, or down to even 20ps single shot, like the very old HP5370B, or the SR620.. That would improve / speed up the ADEV measurement.

Oh yes, again, TimeLab from kfe5x is highly recommended for that. There you'll find also several ADEV graphs for various standards.
http://www.ke5fx.com/timelab/readme.htm

Looking forward to your next 5335A, and picture of this mysterious 10811 3010 series.
Frank

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