Author Topic: HP Logic Analyzer buyers guide-Sorting the wheat from the chaff.  (Read 3060 times)

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Offline djsbTopic starter

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HP Logic Analyzer buyers guide-Sorting the wheat from the chaff.
« on: February 05, 2023, 07:02:12 pm »
I've just been reading the post about the Inverse assembler use in various HP Logic Analyzers. Is there some kind of model reference somewhere where the various models can be compared? Which ones is it best to stay clear of because of either not being repairable or because of poor feature sets. Which model would you most recommend to someone who does reverse engineering on old equipment?
Thanks.
David
Hertfordshire, UK
University Electronics Technician, London, PIC16/18, CCS PCM C, Arduino UNO, NANO,ESP32, KiCad V8+, Altium Designer 21.4.1, Alibre Design Expert 28 & FreeCAD beginner. LPKF S103,S62 PCB router Operator, Electronics instructor. Credited KiCad French to English translator
 

Offline artag

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Re: HP Logic Analyzer buyers guide-Sorting the wheat from the chaff.
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2023, 09:00:53 pm »
The main failing of older ones is lack of memory depth.
The main failing of cheap modern ones (USB streamers) is lack of width.

For looking at old machines, you want enough width to get data, address and control bits captured in state analyser mode. Some chips with multiplexed address and data bits can be used with narrower capture, provided the analyser allows you to acquire the same pins with different clocks.

I'd say the usable HP ones start with the 1630. They're big and nopisy but not as bad as the others of their day - Dolch etc. and they have enough width and depth to capture a useful instruction stream. 1650 / 16500  is a nice update but still a bit shallow depth for serial data - in fact, I'd use a cheap USB analyser for that. The 16500 A is floppy only. B adds hard disk (network optional). C adds network. Note that some of the plugin cards will only work in certain combinations - you need the later scope timebase to use with the later acq cards. Also note the analogue capture is only 6 bit. 16500 is a single knob and a touchscreen, the others have proper panels. As a result, it's much nicer to use with a mouse and keyboard.

1660 and onwards I'd think of as modern. Lots of other people here won't, and they're right :).  I don't know much about the later ones.

All the above are CRT based. Not sure when LCD started. Also, at some point they started using Windows. Those tend to date faster imho.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2023, 09:10:53 pm by artag »
 
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Offline gslick

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Re: HP Logic Analyzer buyers guide-Sorting the wheat from the chaff.
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2023, 09:45:19 pm »
From 4 years ago:


One of the main limitations of the HP 1650 series is a 1K sample depth per channel, and on the HP 1660 series it is 4K sample depth per channel.

The HP 1670 series have at least 64K sample depth per channel, and up to 2M sample depth per channel. It is 1M sample depth an all 1670E while the 1670A, 1670D, and 1670G and sample depth options. A 1670E would be better than a 1670G without any options.
  • HP 1670A mono CRT, 64K sample depth standard, 500K sample depth with Opt 030 (1996)
  • HP 1670D mono CRT, 64K sample depth standard, 1M sample depth with Opt 30 (1997)
  • HP 1670E color LCD, 1M sample depth standard (1999)
  • Agilent 1670G color LCD, 64K sample depth standard, 256K sample depth with Opt 001, 2M sample depth with Opt 002, Scope with Opt 003, PatGen with Opt 004 (2000)
  • 1670A, 1670D, 1670E, 1670G 136 channels
  • 1671A, 1671D, 1671E, 1671G 102 channels
  • 1672A, 1672D, 1672E, 1672G 68 channels
  • 1673G 34 channels
For the 16500 series, the main limitation of the 16500A is that it is dual floppy based, with no hard drive. That excludes support for the 16554A, 16555A/D, 16556A/D, 16557D with 1M or 2M sample depth. There is the 1K sample depth limitation of the 1650 series using 16510A/B modules, or the 4K sample depth limitation of the 1660 series using 16550A modules. (There are the 16540D and 16541D modules with 16K sample depth, and the 16542A module with 1M sample depth, but those are much less common than 16550A modules). The 16500A also does not have a LAN option. Both the 16500B and 16500C have hard drives. LAN is optional on the 16500B and standard on the 16500C.

If you are not local to pick up a 16500 series, the cost to pack and ship the system may exceed the value of a 16500A system. Shipping relative to the overall value should be lower on a 16500B or 16500C system depending on the modules and accessories included with the system.

Depending on your location you might even find better deals on a 16700 series system. Someone local to me has listed a bare 16700A on eBay for $20 a few times with no takers. Even at that low price I don't need another 16700A to make it worth my time to pick up that one.

If you don't have a lot of bench space then a 1670 series would be better than the larger and heavier 16500 and 16700 series, if you can find one available in your price target.

These days a lot of it depends on where you are located, and what is available near you, as the cost of shipping can be significant.

My personal favorite of the old school traditional HP / Agilent / Keysight logic analyzers now are the 168xxA / 16901A series.
 

Offline Chernobyl

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Re: HP Logic Analyzer buyers guide-Sorting the wheat from the chaff.
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2023, 10:42:53 pm »
One user's data point: I have a 102 channel HP 1661C (with the Ethernet option) which hasn't failed me yet for any testing that I've needed. As others noted above I wouldn't use it for decoding USB or serial bit streams (it's just not intended for that and modern tools are much better). But for 80X86, 6809, Z80, 6502, etc. debugging it is excellent. Honestly, I haven't found the 4K depth (actually 8K if used in half channel mode) to be a limitation at all because of the very comprehensive triggering capabilities (you only capture what you need). I wouldn't want to have to page through that much disassembled code in any case. The network interface is extremely useful though and I wouldn't recommend getting an analyzer without it. I can quickly download the complete capture (and disassembled code) and import it into MS Excel for the quick search/scroll capabilities.

My two bits.
 

Offline alm

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Re: HP Logic Analyzer buyers guide-Sorting the wheat from the chaff.
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2023, 10:07:54 am »
Great summary, gslick from 4 years ago :) !

My personal favorite of the old school traditional HP / Agilent / Keysight logic analyzers now are the 168xxA / 16901A series.

Something to be weary of is that most of the logic analyzer boards for the 169xx series take 90 pin pods, which are really expensive on eBay. Older analyzers, from 1650/16500 up to 16753A 16752A  (which does work in 16900) plus the 16910A/16911A, took the much cheaper 40 pin pods.

Still, if you want lots of channels than pods are a substantial cost if not included, so be sure to include that in your budget.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 12:47:08 am by alm »
 

Offline gslick

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Re: HP Logic Analyzer buyers guide-Sorting the wheat from the chaff.
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2023, 08:40:47 pm »
Something to be weary of is that most of the logic analyzer boards for the 169xx series take 90 pin pods, which are really expensive on eBay. Older analyzers, from 1650/16500 up to 16753A (which does work in 16900), took the much cheaper 40 pin pods.

I got a reasonably decent deal on the last 16902A that I picked up a couple of months ago. For right around $200 including shipping it included a 102-channel 32M-sample 16910A analyzer module, which still uses the 40-pin pods. The 16910A analyzer modules are my favorite for the 16900 series, especially for the 16901A which only has 2 module slots.

(Also included with that 16902A to make it a decent deal were a 16720A pattern generator module, and a 16950A analyzer module, which does use the 90-pin pods).
 

Offline MarkL

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Re: HP Logic Analyzer buyers guide-Sorting the wheat from the chaff.
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2023, 11:31:25 pm »
Great summary, gslick from 4 years ago :) !

My personal favorite of the old school traditional HP / Agilent / Keysight logic analyzers now are the 168xxA / 16901A series.

Something to be weary of is that most of the logic analyzer boards for the 169xx series take 90 pin pods, which are really expensive on eBay. Older analyzers, from 1650/16500 up to 16753A (which does work in 16900), took the much cheaper 40 pin pods.

Still, if you want lots of channels than pods are a substantial cost if not included, so be sure to include that in your budget.
One minor correction is that the 1675x cards are all 40-pin up to the 16752A.  The 16753A and up plus 16760A are all 90-pin.  I share the same sentiment that the 90-pin cards are going to cost more than the 40-pin to outfit them with the same number acquisition channels.

Also, the 167xx cards can be hacked to have maximum memory and other features (as described in another thread).  The 169xx cards are software license limited, which to my knowledge, has not been hacked.  So you are stuck with the card options dictated by license keys provided.

I like the 16700/16702 chassis because they run Unix (HP-UX) and can be remoted via X11 (per window) or VNC (for the whole screen).   Unfortunately they are slow machines by almost any modern comparison, but I'm willing to put up with it.
 

Offline gslick

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Re: HP Logic Analyzer buyers guide-Sorting the wheat from the chaff.
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2023, 12:42:05 am »
Also, the 167xx cards can be hacked to have maximum memory and other features (as described in another thread).  The 169xx cards are software license limited, which to my knowledge, has not been hacked.  So you are stuck with the card options dictated by license keys provided.

Hmm, all of my 168xx / 169xx analyzer modules are somehow maximally licensed.  :-DD
 

Offline MarkL

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Re: HP Logic Analyzer buyers guide-Sorting the wheat from the chaff.
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2023, 01:08:36 am »
Also, the 167xx cards can be hacked to have maximum memory and other features (as described in another thread).  The 169xx cards are software license limited, which to my knowledge, has not been hacked.  So you are stuck with the card options dictated by license keys provided.

Hmm, all of my 168xx / 169xx analyzer modules are somehow maximally licensed.  :-DD
A fortunate happenstance, or did I miss something?
 

Offline MarkL

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Re: HP Logic Analyzer buyers guide-Sorting the wheat from the chaff.
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2023, 09:00:06 pm »
Also, the 167xx cards can be hacked to have maximum memory and other features (as described in another thread).  The 169xx cards are software license limited, which to my knowledge, has not been hacked.  So you are stuck with the card options dictated by license keys provided.

Hmm, all of my 168xx / 169xx analyzer modules are somehow maximally licensed.  :-DD
A fortunate happenstance, or did I miss something?

I'll answer my own question... Yes, I did miss it (brain full).

Start here:

  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hpagilent-1675x-logic-analyzer-card-memory-up-hack/msg3575712/#msg3575712
 

Offline rcjoy

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Re: HP Logic Analyzer buyers guide-Sorting the wheat from the chaff.
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2023, 07:36:17 am »
I recently picked up an Agilent 1671G and I'm quite happy with it.

Key features:
  • Compact
  • Nice bright and crisp LCD display
  • Boot fast from ROM/flash - no need to boot from floppy or hard disk
  • Has Ethernet, so you can use FTP to transfer files back and forth
  • RS-232 and GPIB for remote control
  • 102 channels and 2M samples (option 002), overkill for most use cases
  • 150 MHz state analysis speed, more than fast enough for older CPUs and microcontrollers
  • 2GB hard drive for storing data, setups, inverse assemblers, etc.
  • Fully controllable from the front panel, but can also use a PS/2 keyboard & mouse (no USB)
  • The user interface can be a little slow sometimes, but not a deal breaker

It seems to be ideal for home use on 8 and 16 bit CPUs.

You do have to get used to dealing with 8+3 character filenames again, though.
 


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