If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?

[pjwum]

Nothing wrong with remaining 'loyal' to a trusted brand, but ignorance of the market is nothing to be proud of.

Some might say that spending time and effort to constantly re-evaluate the market to find the current best value meter is nothing to be proud of either. Just keep buying what works and spend your efforts on more important things.

One of the best arguments so far.
An increased range of options does not necessarily lead to higher satisfaction with the outcome of a decision. If anything, choice may in fact impede our ability to enjoy and appreciate what we have.

Constantly searching for the market's best option, even if you already have a decent tool, means you are a maximizer. Maximizers are prone to experiencing a sense of 'buyer's remorse' following a decision, doubting whether it was correct, and envisaging how life would have been had they made a different choice. Whether it's multimeters or the purchase of a chocolate bar, maximizers are prone to the fear that a better choice was, or is, available.

[Monkeh]

Nothing wrong with remaining 'loyal' to a trusted brand, but ignorance of the market is nothing to be proud of.

Some might say that spending time and effort to constantly re-evaluate the market to find the current best value meter is nothing to be proud of either. Just keep buying what works and spend your efforts on more important things.

One of the best arguments so far.
An increased range of options does not necessarily lead to higher satisfaction with the outcome of a decision. If anything, choice may in fact impede our ability to enjoy and appreciate what we have.

Constantly searching for the market's best option, even if you already have a decent tool, means you are a maximizer. Maximizers are prone to experiencing a sense of 'buyer's remorse' following a decision, doubting whether it was correct, and envisaging how life would have been had they made a different choice. Whether it's multimeters or the purchase of a chocolate bar, maximizers are prone to the fear that a better choice was, or is, available.

Yes, thank you for the two cent psych eval based on the most extreme assumption possible.

Remaining aware of options on the market not branded 'Fluke' is not the same as searching for something better all day.

[Fungus]

I don't know. Recently I do a bit a research on DMM and if I don't buy a Fluke (as they may be resting on their laurels) I would consider Hioki, Yokogawa, Gossen and even Keysight before Brymen.

All very expensive brands, even more expensive than Fluke!

What do they do that Brymens (or Flukes) don't?

[BeBuLamar]

Just by looking at them I don't like the Brymen.

[rsjsouza]

I don't know. Recently I do a bit a research on DMM and if I don't buy a Fluke (as they may be resting on their laurels) I would consider Hioki, Yokogawa, Gossen and even Keysight before Brymen.

All very expensive brands, even more expensive than Fluke!

What do they do that Brymens (or Flukes) don't?

Track record. Apart from Keysight, these brands are tens of years ahead of Brymen.

[Fungus]

Track record. Apart from Keysight, these brands are tens of years ahead of Brymen.

Yeah, yeah, but that's not good reason for an EEVBLOG reader not to buy one. 

Just by looking at them I don't like the Brymen.

As good as reason as any, I guess.

I admit I don't really like the look of the curvy ones myself. I went for a square 'industrial' one when I got mine.

(Not as ugly as the Keysights though)

[coromonadalix]

And wayyyyy overpriced .... to my taste

I had an Brymen 859s, it was rock solid and fast, made a mistake to sell it,   had a mastech 22000 count dmm (sorry cant recall the model)  i loved it too, no need to completly dismantle the dmm to change the fuses.

Now i have Gossen 28 and 29s, incredible meters, but 2 meas a sec, they are sloooow,  costed me a fortune to get them and their accessories are way overpriced.

Tried the bulky 289 at my job, damn this thing is huge on a desk, not impressed if you don't do logging, i always get the impression to start a computer.
I have at my job the 83 series "I" and III, and 87 III series,  tried a 87 serie V   totally hated it,   it start in ac, you have to switch it in dc ...

Now i'm running 2x Fluke 189 and 1x Amprobe 140, i'm happy with them. Simply love the Fuses access for the 189.


In the end  there is always something you need and other things you wont need, 50,000 counts are practical or me, a 310,000 count dmm maybe overkill  loll 
I calibrate a lot under 5 volts dc, i need resolution, not always the precision (big debate here loll)


Now i think  Fluke is overdue and over hypped, they "sits on their lauriers" (french term). Tons of low end models for nothing.

Gave an Beckman Industrial HD160 to a friend, still working as new and rock solid  after many many years. Loved the variable tone function, was very helpful to find intermittent problems, crackling potentiometers....


My perfect meter would be a blend of all i had or have at the moment.

[HKJ]

What do they do that Brymens (or Flukes) don't?

Track record. Apart from Keysight, these brands are tens of years ahead of Brymen.

They may have made multimeters for more years, that do not mean their meters are inherent better. Brymen meters have their strong sides, the other brands have theirs.
Earlier in the tread somebody talked about using a lot of time to find the best meters, that is a very silly notation, there is no best meter. The mid range meters may be fairly similar between some brands, but in high-end meters each brand has their very obvious advantages and disadvantages. One example is the Fluke 289, it is a very competent meter, but I would not like it out in the field. It is slow to turn on and the display can be hard to read due to the low contrast. If you look on Keysight or Gossen, it would be a very good idea to give a new technician a manual if he has to do any advanced measurements with them.
The Gossen has one obvious advantage over most other meters on the bench: You will very seldom blow the fuse, even if you make mistakes. Why? It only has a 10A fuse, no 0.4A fuse and in most cases a bench power supply can shut down before the fuse blows (It measured uA as well as any other meter).

[Fungus]

Tried the bulky 289 at my job, damn this thing is huge on a desk, not impressed if you don't do logging, i always get the impression to start a computer.

Yep? A meter that has to "boot up" just to do a simple measurement? It's not going to get used if there's anything else on the bench.

no need to completly dismantle the dmm to change the fuses.
...
Simply love the Fuses access for the 189.

I try not to blow the fuses. 

I'm a quick learner when they're $12 each.

Now i think  Fluke is overdue and over hypped, they "sits on their lauriers" (french term). Tons of low end models for nothing.

I think it's because people don't want them to change. The Fluke 87 IV was a big change and everybody complained so much they went backwards with the 87V.

The 87 IV was renamed as the 187 and the 87V is the same as the 87 III with a few changes (eg. default to AC mode on current ranges)

[ralphrmartin]

Track record. Apart from Keysight, these brands are tens of years ahead of Brymen.

Engineers come and go at these companies, and sometimes a lot of the smart ideas leave with the engineer.

Managers also come and go, and set different goals (perhaps financially rather than engineering oriented).

I'm not suggesting it has happened to any of these companies, but its a well known way to make money - buy a respected brand, and start selling cheap junk under that name at the original prices, until people finally realise what's going on.

So - is a name really worth anything? Evaluate the product, don't just rely on the name.

[rsjsouza]

What do they do that Brymens (or Flukes) don't?

Track record. Apart from Keysight, these brands are tens of years ahead of Brymen.

They may have made multimeters for more years, that do not mean their meters are inherent better. Brymen meters have their strong sides, the other brands have theirs.

"Better" is a very relative term depending on the person using it, but this is not my point. The track record is entirely dependent on the number of years a brand or model is present on the market with one or more successful products. Brymen is building their reputation in handheld meters, but the other brands have been building their reputation not only for handhelds but instrumentation in general.

Track record. Apart from Keysight, these brands are tens of years ahead of Brymen.

Engineers come and go at these companies, and sometimes a lot of the smart ideas leave with the engineer.

Managers also come and go, and set different goals (perhaps financially rather than engineering oriented).

So - is a name really worth anything? Evaluate the product, don't just rely on the name.

I agree with the two top statements, but the last one was debated many times around here. Features and specifications are one of the parameters to choose an equipment - other things usually come into play such as service, warranty, contracts, etc.

[ralphrmartin]

Engineers come and go at these companies, and sometimes a lot of the smart ideas leave with the engineer.

Managers also come and go, and set different goals (perhaps financially rather than engineering oriented).

So - is a name really worth anything? Evaluate the product, don't just rely on the name.

I agree with the two top statements, but the last one was debated many times around here. Features and specifications are one of the parameters to choose an equipment - other things usually come into play such as service, warranty, contracts, etc.

Good point. I should have said "Evaluate the complete package you are getting". But one thing to be wary of is promises. Buying stuff with promised improvements in later firmware releases, stuff with a lifetime guarantee (= until the company shuts up shop), and so on can end up badly too. Even here the company's track record can mislead, under new management.

[Fungus]

Fluke has changed hands a couple of times, most recently in 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluke_Corporation#History

It's logical that management will have had changes during those transitions.

Has anybody seen any changes to their 87Vs after 2016?

[BeBuLamar]

Not really somebody stole my 87V recently.

[rsjsouza]

Good point. I should have said "Evaluate the complete package you are getting". But one thing to be wary of is promises. Buying stuff with promised improvements in later firmware releases, stuff with a lifetime guarantee (= until the company shuts up shop), and so on can end up badly too. Even here the company's track record can mislead, under new management.

Indeed. In these times of severe consolidation, buyer beware.

Fluke has changed hands a couple of times, most recently in 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluke_Corporation#History

It's logical that management will have had changes during those transitions.

Has anybody seen any changes to their 87Vs after 2016?

I am not sure if you remember but there is a very long thread here where people talked about the minute changes in quality control of 87Vs. This is a thread that people hate when I bring it up due to the catfights in it (now, where was that link again?)

(edit) Found it!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-87v-(2017)-lacking-quality-control/

[Fungus]

I am not sure if you remember but there is a very long thread here where people talked about the minute changes in quality control of 87Vs. This is a thread that people hate when I bring it up due to the catfights in it (now, where was that link again?)

Yeah, I remember one but I can't find it. There were meters that were no longer "Made in USA", some dodgy binding posts, worse probes, etc.

(edit) Found it!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-87v-(2017)-lacking-quality-control/

That wasn't it. That's only a single page and is mostly about a single defective meter.

[Microdoser]

Well personally, as someone who doesn't abuse their DMM, who will only use it on the bench (which is over a carpet on floorboards), and doesn't want to spend hundreds of pounds more to get essentially the same meter with a different brand on the front, I went with a Brymen 867s.

I am very happy with it. I feel it is a good chunk of meter for the money.

Regarding other meters, my view is this. Johnny Vegas is quoted recently as saying "So you love me? I can't put that in the bank". Similarly (and to torture a common saying), decades of company experience in a bucket, that doesn't change anything in the real world when you are using the meter, is worth a bucket. For me, that is the extra cost to making the meter rugged and a lifetime warranty. I still have every meter I ever bought, all in working order. I have my UT33B, ST-920, UT60A, and now my BM867s and the only reason I got that was because my youngest meter is well over a decade old and I found myself using my scope as a multimeter.

If I wanted a meter to take on the road, to unknown parts, that I wanted to be able to get repaired for free when it inevitably succumbed to the damage it got every day, I would get one with a lifetime warranty because that would have value. I would also buy Snap-On tools which also have a lifetime warranty and cost a lot more than other tools if I was a mechanic, but any mechanic will tell you there are far better tools out there for much less money. The reason you see them in every garage to visit is because you can give them to a complete meathead mechanic, knowing they will break them, and you can just get them replaced. They make business sense, but they are not the best buy for anyone else.

Some might say that spending time and effort to constantly re-evaluate the market to find the current best value meter is nothing to be proud of either.

Of course, but personally, I evaluate the market once when I am buying something. To constantly evaluate a changing market is to constantly be unhappy with your choice. To check out the best option when it is time to replace means you are (should be) happy with whatever you choose because you made the best choice you could.

It's not so all or nothing/black and white as 'never evaluate' vs 'constantly evaluate', IMO the sensible option is to evaluate when you need to. Also, as I say above, the best choice for work is not necessarily the best choice for a lab or at home. They have different criteria.

[Fungus]

If I wanted a meter to take on the road, to unknown parts, that I wanted to be able to get repaired for free when it inevitably succumbed to the damage it got every day, I would get one with a lifetime warranty because that would have value.

I don't think Fluke's warranty covers damage to the meter, only factory defects.

[BeBuLamar]

Correct! The Fluke lifetime warranty covers a lot less than I thought. So it's not the reason why I would buy a Fluke.

[rsjsouza]

(edit) Found it!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-87v-(2017)-lacking-quality-control/

That wasn't it. That's only a single page and is mostly about a single defective meter.

The link points to a 9 page thread..

Well personally, as someone who doesn't abuse their DMM, who will only use it on the bench (which is over a carpet on floorboards), and doesn't want to spend hundreds of pounds more to get essentially the same meter with a different brand on the front, I went with a Brymen 867s.

(...)
It's not so all or nothing/black and white as 'never evaluate' vs 'constantly evaluate', IMO the sensible option is to evaluate when you need to. Also, as I say above, the best choice for work is not necessarily the best choice for a lab or at home. They have different criteria.

Precisely. When we use our own devices and take good care of them, the time spent on the research for maximum bang per buck in features and quality is quite rewarding. For a business, not so much.

[Fungus]

Correct! The Fluke lifetime warranty covers a lot less than I thought. So it's not the reason why I would buy a Fluke.

There may be enough cases of a Fluke rep giving somebody a replacement meter (or cheap TL75 leads) to have created that myth but there's no way they could do it in real life. They'd make exponentially less money as time went by.   

The link points to a 9 page thread..

Ummm... maybe my browser went somewhere else... 

But yeah, that's the one I was thinking of.

[ralphrmartin]

There may be enough cases of a Fluke rep giving somebody a replacement meter (or cheap TL75 leads) to have created that myth but there's no way they could do it in real life. They'd make exponentially less money as time went by.   

Many years ago there was a company in the UK that claimed that other incandescent light bulb manufacturers gave their products a deliberately short life to increase sales. The new company made and sold a bulb with a "forever" guarantee (or maybe just many years, I forget now). It seems they were not in business for very long...

[BeBuLamar]

There may be enough cases of a Fluke rep giving somebody a replacement meter (or cheap TL75 leads) to have created that myth but there's no way they could do it in real life. They'd make exponentially less money as time went by.   

I don't know what kind of myth you're talking about but my original 87 (87 version 1), 189, 289 all came with what Fluke called "Limited Lifetime Warranty" and I have used it and I will list all the incidents.

My original 87 (I think I bought it in 89) after a few years had bad display and I sent it to Fluke and they fixed it for free. Second time it happened in 2004 they said they can't fix it and give me $100 credit toward a new meter. So I bought the 189 with the credit.
Around 2017 my co worker 189 broke and I sent it to Fluke they fixed it for free. In 2018 the same meter broke again and I sent it to them and they said no more warranty.
My 87V I have at work had bad current banana jacks so it beeps all the time thinking the test lead is in. I sent it to Fluke and they fixed it free.
My co worker 187 has the metal clip in the battery compartment broke and I sent it to Fluke and they replace the battery holder free. The second time he broke it they said it's not warranty.
I purchased a couple of the IR3000-FC to have Fluke connect with the 287 and 289. One of them work. I returned the other 3 times and couldn't get one that works. Fluke rep came to see me and update the firmware. He did it with my working one first and managed to render it non working. He couldn't get any of them work. I returned all of the IR3000-FC units. The rep gave me a Fluke a3001FC amp meter free for my trouble.

So my experience with Fluke is both good and bad. Still I think I would buy a Fluke instead of a Brymen.

[Fungus]

So my experience with Fluke is both good and bad. Still I think I would buy a Fluke instead of a Brymen.

You throw around terms like "co worker" and "Fluke rep came to see me". Is this a corporate account? How many Fluke meters do you have around?

It wouldn't surprise me that anybody who buys enough meters to have a "rep" gets better warranty treatment than the average joe.

You also say things like "in 2004". Fluke has changed hands since then so I'd have to wonder if it's still the same today.

[floobydust]

Brymen is an OEM, although they sell their own brand-name products. They have no dealers/distribution in Canada. Only under a rebadge name GreenLee (which electricians do respect).
Otherwise, there's no end-user or after-sale support that I can see.
Fortive/Fluke at least has local customer service, instead of getting some orphaned product, you can get support.