Author Topic: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?  (Read 114763 times)

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Offline pascal_sweden

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I wanted to check why you still would want to buy Fluke, if Brymen is cheaper and as good.

Would it be because you have worked with Fluke many years, and want to stay with your brand?
Nostalgic reasons?

Or do you prefer American products over products made in Taiwan?

Would you stay with Fluke, as price is not an issue, because your employer pays the bill?

What other reasons?

Let the discussion round begin! Brymen versus Fluke: 1-0 to start with :)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 04:42:39 pm by pascal_sweden »
 

Offline Muxr

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Fuke has a better build quality and better resale value. Also you can't get a Brymen in the US through official channels. I got my 87-V brand new off Ebay for $275 2 weeks ago. So it was also cheaper than Brymen.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 04:49:02 pm by Muxr »
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Because Brymen offers:
-No waterproof multimeter
-No shockproof multimeter
-No gasproof multimeter

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/m2en/digital-multimeters/Specialty-Multimeters/Fluke-28-II-Ex-Intrinsically-Safe-True-rms-Digital-Multimeter.htm?PID=74148
Quote
Now there’s one intrinsically safe digital multimeter (DMM) you can use in IIC (gas), in Zone 1 and 2 and IIIC (dust), Zone 21 and 22. Whether you work in petroleum, chemical, or pharmaceutical environments, all the test and troubleshooting power you need is packed into the most rugged intrinsically safe (IS) DMM Fluke has ever built. The Fluke 28 II Ex is also waterproof, dust-proof and drop-proof. You’ll be equipped to handle any situation, inside and outside of hazardous zones, without compromising compliance or measurement performance.
The Brymen high end multimeters have quite a large display, that is not shockproof. No Brymen multimeter will withstand this.

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Offline Rolo

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Don`t expect to buy a new meter soon because my Fluke 175 is still performing well. So...would I buy Fluke again ? Yes if funds are no issue.
 

Offline Lightages

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Fluke has a long standing reputation of great build quality and reliability. Fluke also has a "lifetime" warranty on most of its multimeters whereas Brymen only offers one year. Greenlee gives lifetime on their re-badged Brymens but that is not Brymen directly. Fluke also offers ruggedized models as has already been mentioned. It is is also arguable that Brymen makes as good a quality meter as Fluke in some people's eyes.

So there are some real reasons and some psychological reasons people buy Fluke instead of Brymen. If I was going to buy a meter for a company and it was my reputation on the line I would buy a Fluke, that is before I had experience with Brymen.

 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Fluke really thinks about the every day adventures that the average electrician is confronted with :)

3 meters drop on concrete, 1 meter under water, Canyon trip, being frozen down to -15 degrees, 6 meters drop, 12 meters drop, 30 meters drop, being thrown from a car at 60 km/h.

Wow! Seems like Brymen didn't do their homework about every day adventures in the US :)



 

Offline dom0

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I guess you never saw how people in the field/industry treat the gear...
,
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Fluke has a pretty much spotless track record. And while the price is a bit higher, it really isn't that much higher. From a companies point of view: if paying an additional 50 or 100€ saves your employee 2 hours worth of work over a period of 30 years then that's money well spent.

With a Fluke you don't need to worry about "could it be the DMM" if you're troubleshooting. That's not a badge Brymen has deserved yet.

I'd also like to point out that stating "Brymen is cheaper and as good" and "Brymen - Fluke 1-0" is a bit premature and doesn't exactly help to get a good discussion going. It's like yelling "Justin Bieber is the best, that's just a fact!" and then asking for a discussion about why anyone else could be stupid enough to think The Beatles might be considered for the "The Best" spot.

EDIT: Also: a 3m concrete drop would seem more likely than you think it is...
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Offline Armxnian

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Fuke has a better build quality and better resale value. Also you can't get a Brymen in the US through official channels. I got my 87-V brand new off Ebay for $275 2 weeks ago. So it was also cheaper than Brymen.

The retail price of the 87v is $300-350. Doesn't matter what you got it for on eBay using buy it now when talking about regular price.

Also the bm869 is $230. http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/

Because Brymen offers:
-No waterproof multimeter
-No shockproof multimeter
-No gasproof multimeter

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/m2en/digital-multimeters/Specialty-Multimeters/Fluke-28-II-Ex-Intrinsically-Safe-True-rms-Digital-Multimeter.htm?PID=74148
Quote
Now there’s one intrinsically safe digital multimeter (DMM) you can use in IIC (gas), in Zone 1 and 2 and IIIC (dust), Zone 21 and 22. Whether you work in petroleum, chemical, or pharmaceutical environments, all the test and troubleshooting power you need is packed into the most rugged intrinsically safe (IS) DMM Fluke has ever built. The Fluke 28 II Ex is also waterproof, dust-proof and drop-proof. You’ll be equipped to handle any situation, inside and outside of hazardous zones, without compromising compliance or measurement performance.
The Brymen high end multimeters have quite a large display, that is not shockproof. No Brymen multimeter will withstand this.


Dave did that as a fun test...

Also the Fluke 28 II Ex was recalled a while back. Just because your meter says Fluke it doesn't mean you're safe from: "conductive dust may cause a short circuit that could ignite a dust explosive atmosphere surrounding the unit, potentially resulting in serious injury or death."
http://en-us.fluke.com/customer-service/safety-notices/fluke-28-ii-ex-digital-multimeter-recall.html
 

Online Fungus

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I wanted to check why you still would want to buy Fluke, if Brymen is cheaper and as good.
Why do people buy luxury cars when a high-end Ford is just as good?

 

Offline Smith

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I trust every Fluke at work, and at home. Cant say that about Brymen. We have Flukes of about 30 year old that still work perfectly. They get dropped, overloaded, zapped with several kilovolts and still stay within spec.
Trying is the first step towards failure
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Okey, I understand that the price delta is not a world apart... good to know.

But what about the delta in features/specs? Does the 87V have the same or better specs than the Brymen 869s?

I understand that Fluke is present in this business for many years. But it should be noted that sometimes newcomers can outperform old rookies.

Just to name a few examples in the electronics industry: Sega and Nintendo were doing consoles for 20 years, and then out of the blue comes Sony and outperforms them.

What about Motorola and Nokia Siemens Networks? These are old rookies in telecommunication equipment, and today Huawei, (yes Chinese) has wiped Motorola and Nokia Siemens Networks completely from the map.

Newcomers look at the design from a different perspective, and don't have the high-self esteem attitude that sometimes can kill entire multinationals, because they are getting too relaxed, even to the point where they become lazy. Really a shame that this can happen, but it is a reality unfortunately.

Thanks for sharing the info about the Fluke product recall. This actually confirms that Fluke really cares about its customers. I admit that Brymen would never initiate a voluntary product recall like this.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 07:51:21 pm by pascal_sweden »
 

Offline Howardlong

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"Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM".
 

Offline _Wim_

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The retail price of the 87v is $300-350. Doesn't matter what you got it for on eBay using buy it now when talking about regular price.

Also the bm869 is $230. http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/


I agree on the around 200€ for the Brymen, but here in Europe it as far as I know not possible to buy a Fluke 87 V for less then 500€, so that is a big price gap...
 
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Offline Armxnian

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Okey, I understand that the price delta is not a world apart... good to know.

But what about the delta in features/specs? Does the 87V have the same or better specs than the Brymen 869s?

Thanks for sharing the info about the Fluke product recall. This actually confirms that Fluke really cares about its customers. I admit that Brymen would never initiate a voluntary product recall like this.

Fluke would be the more responsible, but you can't say Brymen wouldn't do what is ethically correct.

The brymen has better specs for the majority of the categories and is CAT IV 1000V rated. I'm sure it meets the spec, but not sure if the UL listing confirms it. The 87v is based on a decade old design, it seems Fluke is currently investing their profits in the thermal imaging market to compete with Flir. The successor is the 287/289 but they cost more so it's not really a replacement. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. Both have specs that are good. If your job requires absolute precision then you're not going to debate the 87v and BM869, you're going to order an 8 1/2 digit Agilent  :-DMM
 
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Offline pascal_sweden

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I believe that I read somewhere that Brymen was the first company in the world to get the CAT IV rating. This confirms that they are ambitious players. Their PCB design is pretty clean as well. Giant leaps better than Vichy :)
 

Offline Muxr

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Fuke has a better build quality and better resale value. Also you can't get a Brymen in the US through official channels. I got my 87-V brand new off Ebay for $275 2 weeks ago. So it was also cheaper than Brymen.

The retail price of the 87v is $300-350. Doesn't matter what you got it for on eBay using buy it now when talking about regular price.
The guy I bought mine from sold 6 brand new 87-Vs on Ebay for $275. http://www.ebay.com/itm/191569718741?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT  I checked my serial and they are the latest revision too.

If I need to use Ebay to buy a Brymen I will check Ebay for Fluke deals, it's only fair.

The top Brymen listing for 869 is $309 (19 of them sold) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brymen-BM869s-Digital-Multimeter-500-000-count-Dual-Temp-AC-DC-TRMS-PC-Logging-/171272486755?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e0a2bf63

My point is, you can get a 87-V for about the same or less money if you shop around (also I don't have to wait for it to ship from China). If I am going to spend close to what Fluke costs might as well get the real thing, since I think it's a better meter. Even at $350 it's still a better deal since you get it in 3 days as opposed to waiting on the slow boat from China.

Fluke is a no brainer really unless you have something specific Brymen offers that you need.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 08:48:28 pm by Muxr »
 

Offline Armxnian

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Fuke has a better build quality and better resale value. Also you can't get a Brymen in the US through official channels. I got my 87-V brand new off Ebay for $275 2 weeks ago. So it was also cheaper than Brymen.

The retail price of the 87v is $300-350. Doesn't matter what you got it for on eBay using buy it now when talking about regular price.
The guy I bought mine from sold 6 brand new 87-Vs on Ebay for $275. http://www.ebay.com/itm/191569718741?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT  I checked my serial and they are the latest revision too.

If I need to use Ebay to buy a Brymen I will check Ebay for Fluke deals, it's only fair.

The top Brymen listing for 869 is $309 (19 of them sold) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brymen-BM869s-Digital-Multimeter-500-000-count-Dual-Temp-AC-DC-TRMS-PC-Logging-/171272486755?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e0a2bf63

My point is, you can get a 87-V for about the same or less money if you shop around (also I don't have to wait for it to ship from China). If I am going to spend close to what Fluke costs might as well get the real thing, since I think it's a better meter. Even at $350 it's still a better deal since you get it in 3 days as opposed to waiting on the slow boat from China.

Fluke is a no brainer really unless you have something specific Brymen offers that you need.

6 meters isn't enough stock to conclude that the 87v's street price is now $275. It costs $356 on Amazon, $347 on Tequipment. Once the listings on eBay are finished, the price is what actual retailers sell it for.

You don't need to use eBay to buy a Brymen. I linked a retailer that has it for $230, ships to the the U.S, and regularly gets more in stock.

So no, you can't get an 87v for the same price as a BM869. It costs $100 more if you're in the U.S, and as another member said, is more expensive in Europe.

Go ahead and spend more if you think it's a better meter. The specs tell a different story. "Track record" is a horrible justification to get the 87v. The 87 lineup has been out for 20 years. The BM869 has been out for two. You can't have a 20 year track record with an item that has existed for 2 years. If everyone bought the unit with the "proven" track record, no new items would ever exist. The multimeter itself has been out for half a century. They are all based on the same fundamental principles. It is not a new product. You can tell with 95% certainty how long a meter will last by looking at the build quality and schematics, which many have done for the 869, including Dave. Fluke has been selling most of their lineup solely on their name. There hasn't been much innovation, most likely because there is a greater margin of profit elsewhere, like Thermal Imaging devices as I mentioned before. If Fluke releases an 87VI with specs that match current meters, then I'll gladly give them the $350 they want. You don't get a reputation like Fluke or Agilent by putting out products that are simply built well. They have to be built well and perform better than all the cheaper brands.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 09:07:37 pm by Armxnian »
 
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Offline Muxr

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I'd rather not buy gear off some shady website. I couldn't even check what the shipping would be, their SSL cert is not trusted by Chrome (see attachment). Ebay at least has buyer protection.

I think 87-V is a better meter. Specs aren't everything and they shouldn't be blindly trusted.
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Let's throw in a nice picture of the Brymen BM869s and an overview of the features to make the Fluke rookies jealous about the Brymen pioneers :)

« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 09:18:11 pm by pascal_sweden »
 

Offline Armxnian

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I'd rather not buy gear off some shady website. I couldn't even check what the shipping would be, their SSL cert is not trusted by Chrome (see attachment). Ebay at least has buyer protection.

I think 87-V is a better meter. Specs aren't everything and they shouldn't be blindly trusted.

Many members have had good experiences with TME, I think Lightages had a problem though, but was eventually resolved. Anyway, can you tell me why the 87v is the better meter? I'm in the market for a handheld DMM but am waiting for the euro to further drop against the dollar to buy an 869. I don't have either, so I go based on specs and multiple videos/posts confirm the specs and praise build quality. Track record alone is a poor reason.
 

Offline Muxr

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I'd rather not buy gear off some shady website. I couldn't even check what the shipping would be, their SSL cert is not trusted by Chrome (see attachment). Ebay at least has buyer protection.

I think 87-V is a better meter. Specs aren't everything and they shouldn't be blindly trusted.

Many members have had good experiences with TME, I think Lightages had a problem though, but was eventually resolved. Anyway, can you tell me why the 87v is the better meter? I'm in the market for a handheld DMM but am waiting for the euro to further drop against the dollar to buy an 869. I don't have either, so I go based on specs and multiple videos/posts confirm the specs and praise build quality. Track record alone is a poor reason.
It's widely considered one of the best handheld meters ever built, for a good reason. The build quality is top notch, great protection, quality control, the ergonomics are great, fast operation, great accuracy, fastest continuity check buzzer speed, great specs and reputation to stay in spec even after being abused.

No brand has a better reputation than Fluke in terms of handheld DMMs, and 87-V is the iterative pinnacle of their half a century long leadership in the field. This is why Fluke has no qualms with offering lifetime warranty on it, as opposed to Brymen's 1 year for example.

I think Brymen has some great meters, and if you're looking for a specific feature Fluke doesn't offer they might serve you better, but no one builds a meter quite like Fluke.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 09:54:53 pm by Muxr »
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Good point about the warranty.

If Brymen is really serious about their product quality, they might want to consider to extend the warranty.

I wonder how their 1 year warranty would work out in Norway if they sell it through an official distributor. Note that Norway is not part of the European Union, and requires 5 year warranty on all consumer products :) Yes, all consumer products. That's why I bought my new vacuum cleaner in Norway instead of Germany. I usually buy abroad, as prices tend to be high in Norway, but sometimes you can score good deals at the retailers, and then the price is the same or even lower than in Germany or Belgium, plus you get the benefit of 5 years warranty, imposed by the consumer laws in the Norwegian Kingdom :)

 

Offline Electro Fan

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As long as we're talking Fluke and Brymen, anyone want to weigh-in with any experience with, or thoughts on, the Fluke 115 vs. the Brymen 257s?  Both about the same size but the Brymen is spec'd to be 210g lighter?  Brymen seems to be equivalent or wins on most specs.  Fluke is about $10 more ($145 vs $135).

Fluke 115
167x84x46mm, 550g

http://en-us.fluke.com/products/digital-multimeters/fluke-115-digital-multimeter.html#overview
http://en-us.fluke.com/products/digital-multimeters/fluke-115-digital-multimeter.html#techspecs

Brymen 257 (From Brymen's site; specs seem to be from 257, not 257s)
161x80x50mm, 340g?

http://brymen.com/product-html/cata250/Bm250L3.htm
http://brymen.com/product-html/cata250/Bm250L2.htm
http://brymen.com/product-html/cata250/Bm250L4.htm
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 10:24:31 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline dadler

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I've had 3 excellent experiences purchasing from TME.eu. As I've stated before, TME has been able to get all 3 Brymen meters to me in ~48 hours Poland->California (choose the ~$8 DHL shipping).

I am quite happy with my BM869s, BM257s, and BM27s.

That said, my Fluke 287 (the only Fluke product I own) is clearly of higher build quality. It just is. The plastics/molding seems to be of better quality than the Brymen. The Brymen meters feel plasticky, and I really, really prefer the Fluke function selector dial. The Brymen selector dials are clunky and difficult to turn.

If you are hobbyist (like I am), I think you'll get more value for your money with a Brymen. If you are purchasing for professional use, the Fluke is going to be easier to acquire, easier to maintain/warranty, and provide a better sense of "certainty" in measurement. A Brymen may indeed be more accurate than a given Fluke, but Fluke's reputation offers a level of confidence that Brymen just cannot match.
 

Offline Lightages

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You can also look for a Greenlee DM860A in the US. It is a re-branded BM869.

The 87V has a lifetime warranty, auto touch hold, faster peak hold, longer battery life, longer history, and the Fluke reputation. To some people the warranty and the reputation are enough to justify buying it over any other meter in the price class.

The BM869 has more counts, better accuracy, dual display, PC connection option, dual temperature, CATIV/1000V, dBm, and VFD. All of this for a lower price. Brymen also makes the meter in the AM-XXX series for Amprobe, the MM series for Extech, and some others. The Brymens seem to be rather well sealed against environmental contamination but they do not specify anything in regards to this.

Yes I had a problem with www.tme.eu but it was resolved in the end. Many others have had good dealings with them.

Edit:

Oh yes, I am offering a 3 year warranty on Brymens I sell even though Brymen only has 1. I cannot give a lifetime warranty on them as I am only a one man band right now and can't make that offer with good conscience. Greenlee has a lifetime on their Brymen re-brands.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 10:10:00 pm by Lightages »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Lightages, Dadler, or Others - Is a Greenlee 510A the same model as a Brymen 257s?  If they are the same model is there any reason to prefer one vs. the other (if a user is in the U.S.)?  Both are available in the U.S.  Thx
 

Offline Lightages

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It is the same as the BM257 yes. Actually you have an incentive to get it from Greenlee for their lifetime limited warranty.

One thing. The Greenlee might not be equal to the latest revision of the BM257, the BM257s, which is updated to match the latest IEC requirements for CAT ratings.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Brymen is good, but it has no drop or waterproof specification. For bench use it is OK. For industrial use, I would prefer Fluke.
Brymen should make a shock and waterproof multimeter in future.
BTW here you can see the Fluke 87 internals. https://plus.google.com/photos/104378593109746079667/albums/5886806334289971217/5962741548115509202?pid=5962741548115509202&oid=104378593109746079667
EDIT: This is not my gallery. I am not David Cada. I do not own that multimeter.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 07:52:05 pm by Hydrawerk »
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Offline mzacharias

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If the 869s is one of those with the curved display screen, like the Greenlee's and Extech's, I would suggest that the daily battle with reflections at any angle would be a source of constant frustration. Style over substance... simply a poor design choice.

I have an older Brymen 857 and it's a fine meter for general use but I still almost always reach for a Fluke.
 

Online EEVblog

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I wanted to check why you still would want to buy Fluke, if Brymen is cheaper and as good.

Trust.
 


Offline eas

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"Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM".
An old platitude. In Big Blue's heyday, did it say more about the quality of IBMs products and service, or their PR? When people say it today, are they, and the people who they are saying it to, considering that times change?
 


Online jadew

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First, I'd like to say that TME is extremely trustworthy. I've used them 10s of times and they're just great.

About the meters, I think people that were used to Fluke will tend to use Fluke in the future too. It comes down to commodity and not willing to take the risk with something new.

When I was looking for a meter I didn't even think about Fluke. I know there are particular areas of the field where a rugged meter is necessary, but most of us, most of the "electronics people" don't need them. Personally I never dropped a meter - I can't even imagine a situation in which that might happen, not to mention submerge it! Why would I need it to be water proof anyway? I don't keep buckets of water laying around my lab, that would be insane.

This is the reason I didn't consider Fluke, if you strip the ruggedness away, you're left with an overpriced meter with poor specs. I think most people realize this and I bet that a lot of old Fluke customers or new possible customers are choosing different brands now.

In my case, the choice was between Agilent and Brymen and went with Brymen because it had good specs and better price.

TL;DR: You want a Fluke if you work in the mines or if you're an existing customer and you don't feel like trying something new. For everything else there are better alternatives.

Edit: I rephrased something.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 12:43:51 pm by jadew »
 

Online Fungus

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This is the reason I didn't consider Fluke, if you strip the ruggedness away, you're left with an overpriced meter with poor specs.

Poor specs?
 

Offline Muxr

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Take away the ruggedness and protection of any meter and you're left with a cheap meter.
 

Online jadew

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This is the reason I didn't consider Fluke, if you strip the ruggedness away, you're left with an overpriced meter with poor specs.

Poor specs?


87 III:
Digital: 4000 counts updates 4/sec; (Model 87 also has
19,999 counts in 4½-digit mode, updates 1/sec.)

That's a 3½ meter in not painfully slow mode. With a 0.05% + 1 digit accuracy for DC Voltage. That's worse than both Agilent U1272A and Brymen 86x and costs a LOT more than any of them.

1 digit on a 3½ meter is 5 times worse than 2 digits on a 4½.

Edit: The brymen has 0.02% + 2 counts and it's a 50,000 counts meter.

Edit 2: My point is that Fluke didn't keep up with the times. What was great 10 years ago, is common sense territory these days. There's nothing wrong in selling old technology, but they're way too expensive for what they have to offer.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 01:15:49 pm by jadew »
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Just want to point out the Australian price for Fluke meters is ridiculous. I wouldn't buy them again until I could get one for a fair price.
Here in Aus we have to go through Australian distributors which are a rip off.
eg. http://www.qldcalibrations.com.au/fluke-87v-true-rms-multimeter That is $630 US. First one I found that wasn't EBay. So obviously we are paying for more than postage.

Cheaper on EBay but then it is grey market, no Australian warranty.
I did manage to buy one on TE electronics once and paid for it but then they said they weren't allowed to give it to me. Long story, no sale.
So if you live in Aus then I would go Brymen, unless someone else is paying for it. Even if someone else is paying for it.

 

Online jadew

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In Europe, the 87V is $760 after tax.
 

Offline iloveelectronics

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So if you live in Aus then I would go Brymen, unless someone else is paying for it. Even if someone else is paying for it.

Fun fact: Australia is indeed the most popular destination for the Brymen meters I sell.
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Offline Muxr

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This is the reason I didn't consider Fluke, if you strip the ruggedness away, you're left with an overpriced meter with poor specs.

Poor specs?


87 III:
Digital: 4000 counts updates 4/sec; (Model 87 also has
19,999 counts in 4½-digit mode, updates 1/sec.)

That's a 3½ meter in not painfully slow mode. With a 0.05% + 1 digit accuracy for DC Voltage. That's worse than both Agilent U1272A and Brymen 86x and costs a LOT more than any of them.

1 digit on a 3½ meter is 5 times worse than 2 digits on a 4½.

Edit: The brymen has 0.02% + 2 counts and it's a 50,000 counts meter.

Edit 2: My point is that Fluke didn't keep up with the times. What was great 10 years ago, is common sense territory these days. There's nothing wrong in selling old technology, but they're way too expensive for what they have to offer.
87-III is an old/discontinued meter. 20k count mode/high res mode on 87-V is 3 readings per second not 1.

You've never used the Fluke meter I take it?

I feel like you're missing the point of the 87-V. It was not built to impress you with the specs. It was built to provide a lifetime of accurate measurements. Weather it takes abuse or not. Fluke has a reputation of very little drift even after taking abuse. Jury is still out on the Brymen's longevity imo, how much does it drift for example?

Fluke has higher resolution meters. Yet many still prefer the 87-V. Why do you think that is?

The way I see it, if you're going to spend $200+ on a handheld, and you can get a Fluke, it makes little sense to buy anything else, unless you really feel you need a feature Fluke is missing. Or you want to try something different.

Quality matters, and a few meters are of higher quality if any. For precision measurements, you really want a bench meter, because DMMs lack the battery life to provide an accurate heated voltage ref. In other words the higher counts on hand held DMMs quickly become a gimmick. So why not go with quality over some theoretical spec no meter can live up to?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 02:01:20 pm by Muxr »
 

Offline XFDDesign

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What does Brymen offer in the 6.5 digit space?

I can only shop for what I can buy in the US.
 

Online jadew

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87-III is an old/discontinued meter. 20k count mode/high res mode on 87-V is 3 readings per second not 1.
Even if you replace the specs of the 87-III with 87-V, the point still stands.

You've never used the Fluke meter I take it?
I have to admit that I have not, I do have friends that own them and I've seen them using them. I didn't see anything impressive.

I feel like you're missing the point of the 87-V. It was not built to impress you with the specs. It was built to provide a lifetime of accurate measurements. Weather it takes abuse or not. Fluke has a reputation of very little drift even after taking abuse. Jury is still out on the Brymen's longevity imo, how much does it drift for example?
Point taken. Brymen is too young to know how well it performs in the long run, but I have feeling that they'll do just fine.

Fluke has higher resolution meters. Yet many still prefer the 87-V. Why do you think that is?
Commodity or not willing to risk testing something new. I don't disagree that at some point Fluke meters were great and that they're still decent. But I also don't think that it's unimaginable that new technology and/or newcomers can outperform them. Keep in mind that their next competitor is not Brymen, it's Agilent, the biggest fish in the sea.


The way I see it, if you're going to spend $200+ on a handheld, and you can get a Fluke, it makes little sense to buy anything else, unless you really feel you need a feature Fluke is missing. Or you want to try something different.

Quality matters, and a few meters are of higher quality if any. For precision measurements, you really want a bench meter, because DMMs lack the battery life to provide an accurate heated voltage ref. In other words the higher counts on hand held DMMs quickly become a gimmick. So why not go with quality over some theoretical spec no meter can live up to?
Even if we leave Brymen aside, I'd still go for Agilent instead of a Fluke. They're cheaper and I have more trust in Agilent designs.
 

Offline Muxr

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Even if we leave Brymen aside, I'd still go for Agilent instead of a Fluke. They're cheaper and I have more trust in Agilent designs.
That's a bold statement.
 

Online jadew

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Even if we leave Brymen aside, I'd still go for Agilent instead of a Fluke. They're cheaper and I have more trust in Agilent designs.
That's a bold statement.
Not saying that's a fact, that's my personal opinion, based on the fact that Agilent has a lot more experience in test and measurement. They've done so much it's silly to compare the two.
 

Offline paulie

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Yes, but does Agilent have experience with putting leaky supercaps in high end product? I understand Fluke provided the PCB corrosion and oxidation feature at no additional charge.
 

Offline Theboel

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can I trust brymen with my employee when they threat fluke like this ? I doubt it but maybe I am wrong who knows
 
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Offline poorchava

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Fluke tends to overpriced stuff.  For example their 2042 cable locator which retails for about 700Euro is a re-badge of some Chinese brand (I forgot which,  sorry).

Stuff like Brymen,  CEM and Applent does the job fine,  and in most cases you can buy one or two extra units for price of one fluke that does the same thing.
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Offline Tom45

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When the groundbreaking Fluke 8020A came out in 1977 I bought one. It was tough and reliable but eventually the LCD faded away and intermittently lost some segments. So I moved on. Not sure where my 8020A is now. I doubt that I threw it away. Wonder what would happen if I made a "lifetime" warranty claim.

I now have a Fluke 12 for my travel kit. An Agilent U1272 and Keysight 34465 serve for bench work.
 

Offline Muxr

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Yes, but does Agilent have experience with putting leaky supercaps in high end product? I understand Fluke provided the PCB corrosion and oxidation feature at no additional charge.
It's a Panasonic supercap, it's not like they skimped on a noname capacitor. Duds happen, one of the reasons 87-V is so popular is because it's proven.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Not saying that's a fact, that's my personal opinion, based on the fact that Agilent has a lot more experience in test and measurement. They've done so much it's silly to compare the two.
jadew, Agilent's T&M experience alone does not warrant good products, as several people reported their higher end portable meters have been plagued with several software bugs. Not saying that Fluke is infallible, but that alone shouldn't bias your opinion.

Edit 2: My point is that Fluke didn't keep up with the times. What was great 10 years ago, is common sense territory these days. There's nothing wrong in selling old technology, but they're way too expensive for what they have to offer.
I partially agree with you; Fluke did not keep up with the newer features in their mainline portable DMMs. However, they may have found that exploring other features that are not commodities on other brands may be more profitable, such as their wireless product line. Since we don't have a crystal ball, we can't tell for sure if this is paving the road for portable meters, but I see it as trying to keep up with times (as everything nowadays is touchscreen and wireless). 

On the other hand, they are (or were, I don't know anymore) owned by a parent company that mostly sought after profit (Danaher), therefore maintaining a captive market with their ruggedness at the expense of innovation of their main DMM products probably made sense for their owners...

Take away the ruggedness and protection of any meter and you're left with a cheap meter.
You are right. I can tell this market is highly sought after by the other manufacturers (perhaps another equally rugged contender would be Gossen). Most of the cheaper alternatives have been adding the low-hanging fruits (HRC fuses, PTCs, varistors, better PCB routing, etc.) but investing in research for better case materials, rotary switches, assembly and others is expensive and probably is enough to make up for the price difference. I have a Fluke 179 and a Brymen BM857, and I can tell the Fluke is a war tank (I did a teardown here).

All in all, I think it is the right tool for the job. My main reason to have spent the extra money on a Fluke was the peace of mind of having at least one safe and dependable meter around - also, the initial price would be dilluted throughout its lifetime. I got the BM857 due to other features (higher counts, 4-20mA measurements, etc.), which I use in my lab.

Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Lightages

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can I trust brymen with my employee when they threat fluke like this ? I doubt it but maybe I am wrong who knows

I think in  your case the question is should you trust your employee if he treats equipment like that!
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 08:32:21 pm by Lightages »
 

Online rsjsouza

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One correction about my previous post: I think I left the idea the Brymens are flimsy. Well, my BM857 is many steps above the average DMM offerings in the marketplace in terms of ruggedness: tight fit between the two halves of the cases with a rubber gasket all around, rubber gaskets on each screw in the back, excellent rubber protection cover, tight fit of the input jacks, tight fit of the rotary switch, etc. The stand is very flimsy, though, and broke with a few uses (although Brymen's excellent support came to rescue)
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline XFDDesign

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I think there will be a gap here because "as good" has not been qualified.

As good in what way? Many of the Fluke supporters are including field durability in their standard. The Brymen camp seems to dismiss this standard. When this is the case, it appears that the Brymen camp are merely shopping for justifications for their "team." If "as good" gets qualified, I expect it would fundamentally change the question.

 

Offline Muxr

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Dave summarizes it quite well:

https://youtu.be/whvSl_0p8e4?t=426
 

Offline m100

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87-V is the iterative pinnacle of their half a century long leadership in the field.

No, the '87-VI' could be that, if they made the default current measurement DC not AC   |O :palm:

(but despite that I've got an 87-V on my bench)

Fluke = Reputation + backup + quality = expensive at first glance but ultimately very cheap for something that last a generation in everyday service

Brymen  = ????  Unknown?   Who the f*ck are they?  =  The kind of thing that gets bought if money is tight or someone else is pulling the strings

From the reviews we sort of know Brymen have some essence of quality, in some countries they may even have the makings of some credible backup, in 30+ years or more they might have a reputation that people will turn to.  Until then all bets are off, for me it's Fluke every time for a portable DMM.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 10:00:24 pm by m100 »
 

Offline Lightages

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I would love to say that Brymens are as rugged as Flukes, but no one can. Brymen does not have the same time in the field nor do they have the same amount of meters in the field being abused like Fluke. For the build quality and design I would be comfortable saying they they can take quite a bit of abuse. Would I think that a BM829s can take the abuse that the Fluke 27 can take. Definitely no. I might say that it could take the same abuse as an Fluke 87V, but I don't have both to compare so I can't say that in good conscience.


I guess this will have to a subject of a video when I get video production back on track.
 

Offline Armxnian

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Dave summarizes it quite well:

https://youtu.be/whvSl_0p8e4?t=426

You're really just trying to justify your purchase at this point by linking a 6 year old video. The 87 had top of the line specs 10 years ago, that's not the case anymore.

The only pros we've seen so far are build quality and track record. The difference in build quality is highly exaggerated. The Brymen is rated to survive 12kV transients, you don't meet that spec by building a crap meter that falls apart in your hand. It also has a huge rubber case. We have tear downs of both meters, and both are built like rocks. Track record is fine to build trust in a product/brand but it is illogical to buy a product based solely on that. If everyone had that methodology, innovation would stop.

No one is bashing any Fluke products. If you bought your 87v a while ago and it still works then there isn't much point in buying a higher end meter unless you need it. But if you're buying new, I don't see much point in paying more for a lower spec'd unit. The 87v looks like a great meter, it's just old. The 289 looks like a better purchase if you have the cash. But even that is a bit old. Fluke has the rep and money to destroy the competition by building the ultimate meter, they just haven't done so.
 

Offline Muxr

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Dave summarizes it quite well:

https://youtu.be/whvSl_0p8e4?t=426

You're really just trying to justify your purchase at this point by linking a 6 year old video. The 87 had top of the line specs 10 years ago, that's not the case anymore.

The only pros we've seen so far are build quality and track record. The difference in build quality is highly exaggerated. The Brymen is rated to survive 12kV transients, you don't meet that spec by building a crap meter that falls apart in your hand. It also has a huge rubber case. We have tear downs of both meters, and both are built like rocks. Track record is fine to build trust in a product/brand but it is illogical to buy a product based solely on that. If everyone had that methodology, innovation would stop.

No one is bashing any Fluke products. If you bought your 87v a while ago and it still works then there isn't much point in buying a higher end meter unless you need it. But if you're buying new, I don't see much point in paying more for a lower spec'd unit. The 87v looks like a great meter, it's just old. The 289 looks like a better purchase if you have the cash. But even that is a bit old. Fluke has the rep and money to destroy the competition by building the ultimate meter, they just haven't done so.
Brymen has a 1 year warranty, 87V has a lifetime warranty. I am sorry if Brymen themselves don't agree with you.

As far as specs are concerned, there is so much not told in the specs. I am not convinced for instance that accuracy is in fact better, until I see some drift measurements for a given period of time, I am not sold. I am actually genuinely curious. Higher count is largely a gimmick if the accuracy isn't there. And like I stated, it is not easy to achieve the stability required in a handheld meter.

Besides if I cared for the count I would have gotten a 286 instead, not the 87V.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 10:11:49 pm by Muxr »
 

Offline Lightages

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Brymen has a 1 year warranty, 87V has a lifetime warranty. I am sorry if Brymen themselves don't agree with you.

Actually Brymen does not guarantee them for more than 1 year, but Greenlee does with exactly the same meter from Brymen. It just has different colors. I personally guarantee the Brymens I sell for 3 years. I can't do any more than that because a one man show can't guarantee anything for life. My guarantee is against any defect in manufacture, not against abuse or misuse. Fluke doesn't guarantee against misuse neither.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 05:43:30 am by Lightages »
 

Offline Muxr

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Brymen has a 1 year warranty, 87V has a lifetime warranty. I am sorry if Brymen themselves don't agree with you.

Actually Brymen does not guarantee them for more than 1 year, but Greenlee does with exactly the same meter from Brymen. It just has different colors. I personally guarantee the Brymens I sell for 3 years. I can't do any more than that because a one man show can't guarantee anything for life. My guarantee is against any defect in manufacture, not against abuse or abuse. Fluke doesn't guarantee against misuse neither.
I get that you are trying to defend Brymen, since you make a living from selling them. You obviously have a vested interest in this. But I am not convinced they are better meters, sorry.
 

Offline Lightages

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I am stating facts. I have not stated anything that is not demonstrable. I am only trying to educate on the facts and correct where things might be mistaken and have been.

I am making nothing on selling Brymen right now and don't expect make anything more than pocket change in the future. I actually point people to www.tme.eu and to Franky here on the forums for purchases most of the time because I only sell to a very small demographic here in SA. I probably have made more money for them than I will ever make from selling Brymen, especially to this audience. I am selling them because I like the product. I have been "defending" Brymen long before I became a distributor. I was a customer of three models before I decided to try and sell them. I also have been "defending" some Uni-T meters, I have a Fluke 27/FM which I consider one of the best buys I have ever made in a multimeter, some Digitek, and others. I have stated my ties to Brymen to make sure people did not think I was a shill or was hiding any possible bias.
 

Offline MisterBiscuit

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It amazes me how trivially people equate the economics of "warranty" with product quality.

"Warranty" is forced insurance, nothing more. You buy it when you buy the product. You pay for it in the purchase price of the product. The manufacturer makes additional profit off of it. You have no option to "opt out" or decline it and save the cost. Manufacturers, distributors, and retailers are more than delighted to sell you *more* insurance in the form of "Extended Warranties" at the time of sale. Why? Because its a huge money maker. "Lifetime Warranties" become sales tools for manufacturers ("Our product is so good, we guarantee it for life!") even though the customer bears the entire financial burden for that warranty. Manufacturers laugh all the way to the bank.

If you want to compare product quality, I'd recommend sticking to qualitative analysis. Warranty is a profit center, not a measure of quality. It is backed with sophisticated computer risk models that ensure profit for the insurer, uhhh, manufacturer and has little bearing on quality.

 

Offline Armxnian

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It amazes me how trivially people equate the economics of "warranty" with product quality.

"Warranty" is forced insurance, nothing more. You buy it when you buy the product. You pay for it in the purchase price of the product. The manufacturer makes additional profit off of it. You have no option to "opt out" or decline it and save the cost. Manufacturers, distributors, and retailers are more than delighted to sell you *more* insurance in the form of "Extended Warranties" at the time of sale. Why? Because its a huge money maker. "Lifetime Warranties" become sales tools for manufacturers ("Our product is so good, we guarantee it for life!") even though the customer bears the entire financial burden for that warranty. Manufacturers laugh all the way to the bank.

If you want to compare product quality, I'd recommend sticking to qualitative analysis. Warranty is a profit center, not a measure of quality. It is backed with sophisticated computer risk models that ensure profit for the insurer, uhhh, manufacturer and has little bearing on quality.

Yeah the Brymens cost less because they have 1 year warranty. The Greenlee re-badges, which are basically the same meter, have a life time warranty, but they are also considerably more expensive.
 

Offline nuno

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Brymen should work a bit on their website, and on English translations. Loved the "fire retarded casing" of the 869 :)
 

Online jadew

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As far as specs are concerned, there is so much not told in the specs. I am not convinced for instance that accuracy is in fact better, until I see some drift measurements for a given period of time, I am not sold. I am actually genuinely curious. Higher count is largely a gimmick if the accuracy isn't there. And like I stated, it is not easy to achieve the stability required in a handheld meter.

Besides if I cared for the count I would have gotten a 286 instead, not the 87V.

Well, let's explore that. I had the BM867 for 2 years and after I got it I made a little voltage reference and resistor reference board. Nothing fancy and I believe it drifted a bit (particularly the 5V reference which is different than the reference used for 1.2V and 2.4V. All the resistors are 0.1%. I stopped keeping track of my meters several months after I built it, but I made another measurement just now.

I have 3 meters, the BM867, an AXIO AX-594 and a very $5 DUWI 07975.

The first thing you will notice, is that low drift is nothing to be proud of when you have such low resolution. The DUWI has virtually no drift and it's been abused for the past few months by my son, being one of his toys now. This is a $5 meter.

The other thing you'll also note, is that the BM867 has less drift in 2 years, than the fluke 87 has counts to display it. And I bet a lot of that drift comes from my shitty reference than from the meter.

I really wish I had a better reference, but I didn't think I'll have this conversation at some point, otherwise I would have built a nicer one and would have calibrated my meters more often.

The data is attached. They're .csv files, but had to change the extension to .txt because I couldn't upload them otherwise.

Edit: Changed the year from the last record to 2015, since I made those measurements today.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 10:42:14 am by jadew »
 

Offline XFDDesign

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A shitty reference isn't a big deal. Getting measurement data on it, simultaneously, with the meters in question is.

LTD is a subject on how the measuring device ages and alters its reading over time. Keep in mind, just like Dave's videos on the LM399 or LTZ1000, the internal reference is the predominant dictator for LTD performance. Without actually going out and buying one of each meter new and then begin trying to sort out how to automate measurements every hour or so, you could look at the two meters' internals and identify their reference. If they have the same reference, it is _likely_ they will age similarly.

No one has told me if Brymen make a 6.5 digit bench meter that compares to the Fluke 8846A, so I'm confused as to how they can be equal without having a product.
 

Offline Muxr

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As far as specs are concerned, there is so much not told in the specs. I am not convinced for instance that accuracy is in fact better, until I see some drift measurements for a given period of time, I am not sold. I am actually genuinely curious. Higher count is largely a gimmick if the accuracy isn't there. And like I stated, it is not easy to achieve the stability required in a handheld meter.

Besides if I cared for the count I would have gotten a 286 instead, not the 87V.

Well, let's explore that. I had the BM867 for 2 years and after I got it I made a little voltage reference and resistor reference board. Nothing fancy and I believe it drifted a bit (particularly the 5V reference which is different than the reference used for 1.2V and 2.4V. All the resistors are 0.1%. I stopped keeping track of my meters several months after I built it, but I made another measurement just now.

I have 3 meters, the BM867, an AXIO AX-594 and a very $5 DUWI 07975.

The first thing you will notice, is that low drift is nothing to be proud of when you have such low resolution. The DUWI has virtually no drift and it's been abused for the past few months by my son, being one of his toys now. This is a $5 meter.

The other thing you'll also note, is that the BM867 has less drift in 2 years, than the fluke 87 has counts to display it. And I bet a lot of that drift comes from my shitty reference than from the meter.

I really wish I had a better reference, but I didn't think I'll have this conversation at some point, otherwise I would have built a nicer one and would have calibrated my meters more often.

The data is attached. They're .csv files, but had to change the extension to .txt because I couldn't upload them otherwise.
Thanks for that. I am assuming the last entry is 2015 (says 2013 in the file).

This basically either confirms what I've been saying, which is that the extra digit count is pointless as the meter will drift those digits anyways (or they will be noise), or that it's inconclusive because of the reference drift. Also 87-V is a 20k count meter. So the 5V reference would have shown the difference, but that's neither here or there because it's off by just one digit.

I remember someone distinctly complaining about the Brymen drift while back, which is why I brought it up in the first place. Here I found the post: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/brymen-bm869-short-review/msg553991/#msg553991

I am just not convinced that Brymen 869 actually offers any tangible accuracy advantage over the 87-V.

edit: this video kind of sucks, also warning turn your volume down, but it's an interesting anecdote for the 87-V

basically to summarize, some eastern european guy buys a used 87-V from ebay.. seller from the US sends it to Europe. He gets it and sends it to his local Fluke for calibration. They returned the meter with results of the calibration. Meter had some drift in other functions (all within the spec) But the DC had 0 drift on all the ranges in 5 years.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 03:42:35 am by Muxr »
 

Online jadew

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Yes, the last entry is 2015, thanks.

I think the 5V reference drifted. I'm using a 2.4V reference for the 1.2 and 2.4 voltages and a different one for the 5V. Given that everything else stayed pretty much the same, I'm inclined to believe the 5V drifted.

As for the noise, the display is very stable. On this reference, which I power from a 9V battery so the input is super clean, the last digit (in 500,000 counts mode) simply goes down as the battery discharges. It never jumps around - at most it goes up one count when it's between counts. I'll make a video.

Edit:
Here's a video of the meter measuring the input voltage of the reference: http://youtu.be/P93mj_xvguY

Edit 2:
@Muxr
The Fluke calibration was done in 6000 counts mode. My Brymen has 0 DC drift for that many counts too and again, my reference costs $3 total. If it was lab grade, I wouldn't be surprised if the brymen had 0 in the 50,000 counts mode too.

Edit 3:
The measurements I made were in 500,000 counts mode, which is why the numbers might look higher than they really are.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 04:11:15 am by jadew »
 

Offline Muxr

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Thanks! Doesn't look noisy, you're right.
 

Offline nanofrog

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Brymen has a 1 year warranty, 87V has a lifetime warranty. I am sorry if Brymen themselves don't agree with you.
Fluke does have a longer warranty, but do be aware their definition of "Lifetime" has to do with their product lifetime/cycle, not the lifetime of the purchaser (turns out it's 7 - 10 years depending on the date you buy it, when the meter is EOL'ed, and the availability of spare parts).

As far as specs are concerned, there is so much not told in the specs. I am not convinced for instance that accuracy is in fact better, until I see some drift measurements for a given period of time, I am not sold. I am actually genuinely curious. Higher count is largely a gimmick if the accuracy isn't there. And like I stated, it is not easy to achieve the stability required in a handheld meter.
I own both a Brymen BM857 and Agilent U1252B as my better meters (both are 50k counts). Had both for ~3 years IIRC. Make of it what you will, but checking the same sources, they're both still within spec. So either both are drifting at the same rate, or they're not drifting any appreciable amount, if at all.

I'd actually have to give ruggedness to the Brymen over the Agilent (their HH designs were acquired from Escort), but it really doesn't matter much for bench use IMHO (i.e. surviving a drop of 1m is sufficient; and environment = indoor use). The Agilent has the edge on features, and the display is much nicer to use (BM869 is more in line with the Agilent on features & display).

If things are going to get rough, I've also a Fluke 27/FM when the counts aren't critical (rugged as hell, but only 3200 counts & far fewer features). It's also the only Fluke I own ATM (could easily change if the right deal comes along).
 

Offline Marc M.

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Fluke really thinks about the every day adventures that the average electrician is confronted with :)

3 meters drop on concrete, 1 meter under water, Canyon trip, being frozen down to -15 degrees, 6 meters drop, 12 meters drop, 30 meters drop, being thrown from a car at 60 km/h.

Wow! Seems like Brymen didn't do their homework about every day adventures in the US :)
...the '87-VI' could be that, if they made the default current measurement DC not AC   |O :palm:
Folks, you have to keep things in perspective.  This is an electronics specific forum so most folks here are only thinking about these things from an electronics viewpoint.  What many are failing to realize is that the Fluke 87 series was designed specifically for needs of the Industrial Maintenance and Electrician fields, not the electronic engineer/tech sitting at a clean bench in a climate controlled room.  It is for this reason that it includes things like a low pass filter to enable accurate measurements when checking the output of VFD's.  It's also why it defaults to AC amps and not DC. 

By day, I'm a CNC tech. in a large production machine shop and I'm dealing with AC voltage measurements 85% of the time and AC current 99.9% of the time.  For the most part, the only DC I deal with on a day to day basis is 24vdc control voltage.  If there's a fault somewhere, it will load the 24v line and the voltage will drop.  When I've isolated the fault the 24v supply voltage will go back to normal - no need to check current.  In the few places where there's a current loop, we use a meter specifically designed for checking current loops.

Regarding the snarky "...everyday adventures in the US..." comment, the poster obviously has never worked in an industrial environment in any country.  When I have a machine down it's potentially losing hundreds or even thousands of dollars an hour. I can't be wasting time trying to bubble wrap and safeguard my $300 meter (btw, I paid for it, not the company). I need to get the machine running again as quickly as possible. A very common issue on CNC equipment is short/breaks in wiring to proximity and reed switches.  They are extensively used to make sure that commanded movements of things like hydraulic cylinders or mechanical parts of tool changers and pallet changers have completed before the next movement begins so their cabling is often continuously flexing.  Some of these machines are over 20 feet (about 7 meters) high and covered in a layer of dirt and oil and I'm precariously perched on a piece of 2" angle iron on top of it. I'm very careful about all equipment but in these sorts of situations things happen and it may get knocked off and fall down inside the machine bouncing off crap on the way down only to land in a pool of coolant.  I know that when I fish it back out and clean it up, chances are it will function correctly and accurately (it hasn't failed yet in 8 years of use).  Fluke understands the reality of working in these sorts of environments and designed their industrial meters to withstand the abuse they get exposed to.

I also work with 480v bus ducts and entry panels where the instantaneous current available is in the 10's of thousands of amps.  It is these places that a sub-par meter WILL KILL YOU.  If you sniff around the internet for Arc/Flash fatalities you'll start to gain an appreciation and respect for working in these areas.  Am I going to literally trust my life to the new kid on the block with very little experience?  No, I'm going to go with the proven veteran whose track record goes back decades.

On the other side of the coin, by night I'm a ham radio operator, repair electronic stuff for friends/family/coworkers etc., and design and build a wide variety of stuff for my multitude of interests, work, and a few things for sale.  All this at my clean, comfy, temp. controlled bench (OK, maybe not that clean  ;)) and what is my goto DMM?  Another 87V, primarily because I'm so familiar with it, but also because I trust it and its accuracy is more than enough.  There is a lot of volt-nut-itis on this forum and for 99% of folks, entirely overkill.  I do plan on picking up a bench DMM at some point (I'm still using a Heathkit VTVM for general work). Unlike Dave, I much prefer having a line powered, stable meter I can plug/unplug probes without having to hold on to the entire thing as my main meter and use the handheld for secondary measurements when needed.  And again, I will buy an HP/Agilent/Keysight (should have stayed HP  |O) because of trust and reputation for solid, dependable design.

Don't replace the cap, just empty the filter!
 
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Offline Terry Lingle

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I work underground in a Mine. Conditions are pretty harsh voltages are nominal 600 VAC from a 7.5 MW 4160 feed. 
I use an 87V and do  not prefer it for this work for the following reasons first it is by design an auto ranging meter  this feature can lead to a fatal belief that the power is off when in fact it is only compromised  with one or two of the phases open while the third is live from a welded contact in the supply breaker. second the low amp ranges are subject to false lead detection due to humidity induced leakage not terribly serious and easily fixed by putting duct tape over the ports.
That said there is no way I would consider any other brand working in my environment.

My first personal digital meter was an 8012A it is about 40 years old and still works perfectly'
I replaced it as my carry meter with an 8060A when it first became available for size and the built in frequency meter. I used that meter every day. In 2013 the battery door failed and I bought the 87V to replace it. The 8060A has 1000 volt rating on it but has no cat III or IV rating as it was built before the visible code was required so insurance and compliance rules prevailed.
For my personal use it is still my go to meter and much preferred over any auto ranging unit.
I also own a fluke 1504 Megger and ground tester it gets much use in fault detection in trailing cables and exposed teck cable troubleshooting.
Lets see how your meters are working in 40 years  then we can have a fair discussion of value vs price.
 
     
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Quote
I work underground in a Mine. Conditions are pretty harsh voltages are nominal 600 VAC from a 7.5 MW 4160 feed. 

That sounds like 600Vac CAT IV which means your nominal voltage is at the very edge of the specification. Maybe you need a higher rated meter.
 

Offline Terry Lingle

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The 87v is a cat IV rated meter.
 

Offline Lightages

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In a mine, you should be using an intrinsically safe meter like the Fluke 28EX. Brymen does not make anything that is ruggedized nor IP rated nor intrinsically safe. Brymen has made some modifications to one of their meters on request for some mines.

If I were to shop for one of those types of meters, I would buy a Fluke 28EX, or an Amprobe HD-160.
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Quote
The 87v is a cat IV rated meter.
Yeah but CAT IV rated to 600V which you said is your nominal voltage.
 

Offline Armxnian

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Lets see how your meters are working in 40 years  then we can have a fair discussion of value vs price.

Flawed logic. Just because a meter from one brand survives harsh conditions and lasts for a long time doesn't mean a meter from another brand won't. We have eyes, we can see build quality.

Also, who realistically uses a 40 year old multimeter? That's a long period for anything. Scientific advancements give the potential for everything to improve.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Lets see how your meters are working in 40 years  then we can have a fair discussion of value vs price.

Flawed logic. Just because a meter from one brand survives harsh conditions and lasts for a long time doesn't mean a meter from another brand won't. We have eyes, we can see build quality.

Also, who realistically uses a 40 year old multimeter? That's a long period for anything. Scientific advancements give the potential for everything to improve.

Not 40 years but about 30 or so years old and my GB GDT-200A piece of crap is still alive and well (The one on the right)


Not constructed well at all:


But I never did plug it into mains, maybe I should, 500V rated 10A and "unfused" but it's UL listed. I guess I'll have to make sure it's on it's right range ;)

No worries I won't!
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Lets see how your meters are working in 40 years  then we can have a fair discussion of value vs price.
Flawed logic. Just because a meter from one brand survives harsh conditions and lasts for a long time doesn't mean a meter from another brand won't. We have eyes, we can see build quality.

No, it is not flawed logic. Put a percentage on it. What are the chances of equipment from a reputed brand with a proven track record with puddles of experience going the distance against equipment from the new kid on the block? Even if you think the difference is marginal, you'd be dishonest if you did not agree on at least a score favoring the reputed brand.

And while "eyes" may be a primary tool for any engineer, it's hardly sufficient to call build quality. There are *so* much factors to consider. Even if Brymen did not cut any corners and did everything to the absolute best of their abilities and knowledge, it's hard to imagine Fluke hasn't picked up a thing or two along the way the other folks are not aware of...
eBay shop with all the gear you need!
FS: Agilent 54815A, 54825A, R&S CMU200, CRTU, SFU, SMIQ06L, Marconi 6201B, Lecroy WP 950, 9354TM, Tek THS720P, Anritsu MG3671A 2.75G I/Q RF gen, Keithley 238 SMU
 

Offline Armxnian

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No, it is not flawed logic. Put a percentage on it. What are the chances of equipment from a reputed brand with a proven track record with puddles of experience going the distance against equipment from the new kid on the block? Even if you think the difference is marginal, you'd be dishonest if you did not agree on at least a score favoring the reputed brand.

And while "eyes" may be a primary tool for any engineer, it's hardly sufficient to call build quality. There are *so* much factors to consider. Even if Brymen did not cut any corners and did everything to the absolute best of their abilities and knowledge, it's hard to imagine Fluke hasn't picked up a thing or two along the way the other folks are not aware of...

No one in this thread has said Brymen > Fluke. Brymen uses Fluke test equipment to calibrate their products...

Look at the title. We are arguing that the 87v is old and the BM869 is a better value, because it has improved specs, costs $100 less (more outside the U.S), and is built well to survive any lab use, and industrial use since it is also U.L listed and is praised by electricians. Prove us wrong.
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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No one in this thread has said Brymen > Fluke. Brymen uses Fluke test equipment to calibrate their products...

Look at the title. We are arguing that the 87v is old and the BM869 is a better value, because it has improved specs, costs $100 less (more outside the U.S), and is built well to survive any lab use, and industrial use since it is also U.L listed and is praised by electricians. Prove us wrong.

The title says "as good" and I'm sorry, that's something you have to earn. And your "eyes" do not qualify as sufficient grounds to qualify the unit as "as good".

And I don't have to prove you wrong. You may very well be right. I just don't know and neither do you. Which makes the Fluke a safer bet. I'd also like to point out that an U.L. listing does not make it an equal product. It just means it also meets a minimum design requirement and if it fails it will probably do so safely.

Common mistake. Qualified according to certain specs is not the same as quality or endurance.
eBay shop with all the gear you need!
FS: Agilent 54815A, 54825A, R&S CMU200, CRTU, SFU, SMIQ06L, Marconi 6201B, Lecroy WP 950, 9354TM, Tek THS720P, Anritsu MG3671A 2.75G I/Q RF gen, Keithley 238 SMU
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Flawed logic. Just because a meter from one brand survives harsh conditions and lasts for a long time doesn't mean a meter from another brand won't. We have eyes, we can see build quality.

Also, who realistically uses a 40 year old multimeter? That's a long period for anything. Scientific advancements give the potential for everything to improve.

If you're going to claim the logic is flawed, it's first best to show the inconsistency, and second it's better not to create a new argument to attack, let alone one which relies on something subjective as "eyes." 

Use your eyes, tell me which of these is a genuine Bugatti Veyron:



Just because something appears to be the same, does not make them the same thing.

Mean Time Between Failures is a thing. MTBF on one meter from each vendor doesn't mean jack. However, when one company has a product in the field, which racks up hours of service, and a specific failure rate they can identify MTBF. If another brand shows up and wishes to be considered an equal, it has to assert the same MTBF. The point of a "40 year old meter" is "this meter is built with an intrinsically long MTBF." This does not mean that there will not be a case where a user buys a new meter and it fails to turn on. It means that on an average, the long-term reliability has a degree of certainty (or as Dave put it, "Trust").

A certain company who develops Power station products in Pullman Washington prides themselves on the lifetime quality of their products. In order to have earned that pride, they set out to achieve the highest MTBF possible. They test all conditions they can to force their systems to fault. They concern themselves with bit-flipping due to charged particles. At the end of the day, their products have an MTBF of 80 years. Their certainty is so high, they give a lifetime warranty and free exchange. The buyers of their products have trust in the product.
 
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Online Fungus

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Just because something appears to be the same, does not make them the same thing.


Mean Time Between Failures is a thing. MTBF on one meter from each vendor doesn't mean jack.
Not unless it specifies the usage conditions.

Almost anything will last a long time if it mostly just sits on a table in a nice clean office. Flukes are designed to last a long time in coal mines with passing clouds of dust, dripping roofs, etc.

Flukes have stood the test of time, they've proved themselves, they've earned the brand recognition.

It sucks for Brymen, yes, but that's the way the world works.
 

Offline rolycat

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Use your eyes, tell me which of these is a genuine Bugatti Veyron:

Ford Cougar with a body kit.

Quote

Bugatti Veyron.
Although to paraphrase René Magritte, ceci n'est pas une Veyron.
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Sorry nearly off topic, but this is a real Bugatti, unfortunately I don't know the MTBF.

Maybe people buy Fluke for the Bugatti factor.
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Mean Time Between Failures is a thing. MTBF on one meter from each vendor doesn't mean jack.
Not unless it specifies the usage conditions.

But even if one meter sits in a box on a table, it's one meter. It's not a statistically significant sample. Fortunately for Fluke, most of their units are in the field as you mentioned.

:stuff:
Yes, you're wise to it. The point was to the person who was saying that eyes were good enough to judge. :)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 02:05:17 pm by XFDDesign »
 

Offline Muxr

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No, it is not flawed logic. Put a percentage on it. What are the chances of equipment from a reputed brand with a proven track record with puddles of experience going the distance against equipment from the new kid on the block? Even if you think the difference is marginal, you'd be dishonest if you did not agree on at least a score favoring the reputed brand.

And while "eyes" may be a primary tool for any engineer, it's hardly sufficient to call build quality. There are *so* much factors to consider. Even if Brymen did not cut any corners and did everything to the absolute best of their abilities and knowledge, it's hard to imagine Fluke hasn't picked up a thing or two along the way the other folks are not aware of...

No one in this thread has said Brymen > Fluke. Brymen uses Fluke test equipment to calibrate their products...

Look at the title. We are arguing that the 87v is old and the BM869 is a better value, because it has improved specs, costs $100 less (more outside the U.S), and is built well to survive any lab use, and industrial use since it is also U.L listed and is praised by electricians. Prove us wrong.
Brymen is obviously a decent meter, and no one is saying those who purchased it made a mistake either. Honestly outside of US if the difference is greater than $100 for a 87v I can see why someone would prefer it over Fluke as it's much cheaper.

People perceive value differently however. To me there is not much difference between $200 and $300 when it comes to a DMM. When you pay that much for a meter you're paying for something that will last you 20-30+ years. That's less than $5 difference per year, for something you use daily it's negligible.

And then there is the resale value, you look at the 20-30 year old 87s which can still fetch $150-$200 on ebay depending on the condition.

Specs: I don't get impressed by the specs. For one Fluke is very conservative about their specs. Everyone knows that the accuracy listed on the specsheet is only what they guarantee, and that it's often vastly better than what the actual spec sheet says. The same is true for your HP/Agilent/Keysight and Keithley gear for instance.

Fluke has no incentive to push their published specs, since they have an established credibility. So in that regard I don't think the specs are as relevant. Companies who order large quantities of meters know to buy Fluke so I don't think Fluke is worried. Readings per second and capability is, sure, but not the accuracy. Brymen scores nicely spec wise, but the specs and price are also their only chance to compete with Fluke's reputation. Historically Fluke has always had competition which competed on specs, Brymen isn't the first and I am sure they aren't the last.

And then there is the build quality of the product. Again Fluke has an established reputation, and while Brymen is also of a good quality many who have used both will admit Fluke is a notch above.

For me personally I could see myself getting a Brymen BM869 one day because I do think it's a good meter, and I like test gear (don't we all?) but for my main meter, 87V is it. I've been out of electronics for a few years so when I came back I bought non Fluke, but that only reminded me of how much I missed my 87. I used one at the job in the 90s and I just remembered how much I loved using it.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 03:05:33 pm by Muxr »
 

Offline Terry Lingle

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If all you work on is low voltage equipment then as long as you are satisfied with the features and specs  of any meter it will probably meet your requirements.
Once you enter the realm of higher voltage /power you need to pay more attention to track record.
when you are a long ways from a replacement you want a meter that will forgive basic user mistakes like 600 vac on the ohms range and keep working.
With 45 years in the power industry I have seen some glaring errors and a few fatal events  as well
Interestingly none involved measurements
What I do know is that the leads are by far the most dangerous part of any meter.
   
 

Offline Armxnian

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If you're going to claim the logic is flawed, it's first best to show the inconsistency, and second it's better not to create a new argument to attack, let alone one which relies on something subjective as "eyes." 


How are your eyes not a valid way to verify build quality. What's the point of reviewers doing teardowns then. Anyone one with experience can tell if something is built well by looking at it. Your eyes are almost as good as a way to judge electrical test equipment build quality as actually using it.

Your car analogy also makes zero sense. That's like judging a meter's build quality by looking at the case that has no brand name. Open the meter, or open the hood of your car and you can get a good idea.

Brymen is obviously a decent meter, and no one is saying those who purchased it made a mistake either. Honestly outside of US if the difference is greater than $100 for a 87v I can see why someone would prefer it over Fluke as it's much cheaper.

People perceive value differently however. To me there is not much difference between $200 and $300 when it comes to a DMM. When you pay that much for a meter you're paying for something that will last you 20-30+ years. That's less than $5 difference per year, for something you use daily it's negligible.

And then there is the resale value, you look at the 20-30 year old 87s which can still fetch $150-$200 on ebay depending on the condition.

Specs: I don't get impressed by the specs. For one Fluke is very conservative about their specs. Everyone knows that the accuracy listed on the specsheet is only what they guarantee, and that it's often vastly better than what the actual spec sheet says. The same is true for your HP/Agilent/Keysight and Keithley gear for instance.

Fluke has no incentive to push their published specs, since they have an established credibility. So in that regard I don't think the specs are as relevant. Companies who order large quantities of meters know to buy Fluke so I don't think Fluke is worried. Readings per second and capability is, sure, but not the accuracy. Brymen scores nicely spec wise, but the specs and price are also their only chance to compete with Fluke's reputation. Historically Fluke has always had competition which competed on specs, Brymen isn't the first and I am sure they aren't the last.

And then there is the build quality of the product. Again Fluke has an established reputation, and while Brymen is also of a good quality many who have used both will admit Fluke is a notch above.

For me personally I could see myself getting a Brymen BM869 one day because I do think it's a good meter, and I like test gear (don't we all?) but for my main meter, 87V is it. I've been out of electronics for a few years so when I came back I bought non Fluke, but that only reminded me of how much I missed my 87. I used one at the job in the 90s and I just remembered how much I loved using it.

I have no objections to wanting to go with the product that has been proven if your life could be in danger, like working with high voltage in a mine, I would do the same myself. But for other uses, I don't see why I should give my money to a brand that doesn't update their meters when there are competitive products. I can prove they are competitive because electricians and hobbyists and electronic engineers buy them.

If Fluke released an 87VI with modern specs I would buy it without question, and I bet you would be excited to buy one also, more than your 87v purchase. I'm not even saying the 869 is a better meter than the 87. That's nearly impossible to prove. I'm only saying it's a better value. It has better specs, is built well, and most of all is less expensive. Mechanical build quality and history isn't enough to consider it a better value for the average user of the product. The facts are laid out in front of us, there is no argument against what I'm saying.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 07:08:59 am by Armxnian »
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Just off the top of my head, many Brymens have a crap continuity test, and even the 869, which is not bad, still isn't latching. They also have a crap warranty...1 year, I think.  Fluke is Lifetime.  Hey, no biggie.  That doesn't make Brymen terrible meters, but the idea that it's somehow "just as good" as a Fluke fails miserably with only about a second's worth of thought.  I don't even need to look at construction, performance, probes, etc.

re: Fluke Warranty
It's not 7-10 years.  It's 7 years after it's discontinued, with a MINIMUM of 10 years from the purchase date.

In the US at least, the only legit source of Brymens off the top of my head is Greenlee, and the DM860A is a good bit more than a Fluke 87.  Off Ebay, we're still paying $310 for a Brymen, and I can get an Fluke 87 new for $370.  The Greenlee badged Brymen will cost over $400. If you're going to be priced this closely to Fluke, you really need to blow me away with specs AND give me warm fuzzies that you'll last 20+ years.  Selling re-badged products, and also having such a wide range of quality from lowest to best, already makes me feel like they don't really give a crap about their brand beyond making some money.

Again, I really don't have anything against Brymen meters.  I think they make a fine meter that will probably last a good long time.  For a few bucks more (or a few bucks less if you're buying a Greenlee  :-DD), I can buy a Fluke that I KNOW will most likely outlast me.  Like so many others, I've had my Fluke for a LONG time.  It's had the crap beat out of it in some harsh settings, and has never done anything but work perfectly and reliably.  It's hard to imagine why I would buy a Brymen, though I understand the pricing is much different outside of the US.  If the price difference were $200 or more, I'd be a lot more inclined to take a chance.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 08:47:15 am by John Coloccia »
 

Online Wytnucls

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Fluke provides a sturdy K-type temperature probe, worth about 25$, with all their meters (1 year warranty). Brymen DMMs are supplied with the cheapest probe available, which, in my experience, usually fall apart after a couple of uses.
Scratch that, the probe doesn't look all that bad actually and is a notch above the usual fare.



« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 08:50:12 am by Wytnucls »
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Selling re-badged products, and also having such a wide range of quality from lowest to best, already makes me feel like they don't really give a crap about their brand beyond making some money.

You actually have a point there! But maybe Brymen needs to keep these entry level models to keep overall profit, as the sales on their higher-end models is limited?

BTW: Brymen is a Taiwanese company. Do companies in Taiwan have to publish an annual report with yearly earnings? It would be interesting to see how good they are doing.


 

Offline Armxnian

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Just off the top of my head, many Brymens have a crap continuity test, and even the 869, which is not bad, still isn't latching. They also have a crap warranty...1 year, I think.  Fluke is Lifetime.  Hey, no biggie.  That doesn't make Brymen terrible meters, but the idea that it's somehow "just as good" as a Fluke fails miserably with only about a second's worth of thought.  I don't even need to look at construction, performance, probes, etc.

re: Fluke Warranty
It's not 7-10 years.  It's 7 years after it's discontinued, with a MINIMUM of 10 years from the purchase date.

In the US at least, the only legit source of Brymens off the top of my head is Greenlee, and the DM860A is a good bit more than a Fluke 87.  Off Ebay, we're still paying $310 for a Brymen, and I can get an Fluke 87 new for $370.  The Greenlee badged Brymen will cost over $400. If you're going to be priced this closely to Fluke, you really need to blow me away with specs AND give me warm fuzzies that you'll last 20+ years.  Selling re-badged products, and also having such a wide range of quality from lowest to best, already makes me feel like they don't really give a crap about their brand beyond making some money.

Again, I really don't have anything against Brymen meters.  I think they make a fine meter that will probably last a good long time.  For a few bucks more (or a few bucks less if you're buying a Greenlee  :-DD), I can buy a Fluke that I KNOW will most likely outlast me.  Like so many others, I've had my Fluke for a LONG time.  It's had the crap beat out of it in some harsh settings, and has never done anything but work perfectly and reliably.  It's hard to imagine why I would buy a Brymen, though I understand the pricing is much different outside of the US.  If the price difference were $200 or more, I'd be a lot more inclined to take a chance.

I wouldn't pay $400 for an 869 rebadge. The Brymen one costs $230 because it has 1 year warranty. Personally I've never used a warranty on anything. I either take care of my product, or somehow end up destroying it past warranty coverages. I don't really care about the specs either, they aren't that drastic of a difference, I have a bench meter for accuracy and precision. But looking at Fluke's handheld dmm lineup, pretty much everything seems to be overpriced for electronics use. They have $200 meters that don't even have a microamp range. Either their lineup is designed for industrial electricians use or they just haven't updated anything.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 09:18:13 am by Armxnian »
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Fluke is like Apple... huge profit margins, moderate specs.
 

Offline Armxnian

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Fluke is like Apple... huge profit margins, moderate specs.

The arguments in this thread are literally what Apple fanboys use to defend their products. You tell them you can get another laptop that is cheaper and faster, but by default they respond with "build quality". Am I buying a screw driver set or a computer?  Unless the BM869 or similar dies after a year of use then I think I've made my point, and it seems to be the most realistic one.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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A lot of Fluke meters don't have mind boggling specs, but for 99% of what I do, I don't need specs like that.  I use that same Fluke to do everything...work on vehicles/equipment, house wiring, electronics works on the bench, etc.  It's tough and reliable.  It's 20 years old and I still have the original probes (though I recently replaced them with some Pomonas that I like better).  Specs aren't everything.  If I have to buy a cheap meter 3 times because it can't hold up to daily use and abuse, then the Fluke is much cheaper in the long run.  We've all come to trust them.

Specs are nice, but most of the time I'm either checking rails or I'm checking continuity.  Maybe I'm testing a diode or checking a cap to see if it's leaky.  The most important things to me are reliability and a FAST, latching continuity test.  If I need more than basic accuracy/precision, I won't be fiddling around with a stupid handheld meter.  I'll have a proper bench meter.  This class of meter is marketed to pros, and I'm guessing most pros probably feel the same way.  We just simply don't need a whole of of precision most of the time.  It's really surprising how many meters, even very expensive ones, have really awful continuity tests. I think BK Precision is one of the few, including Fluke, that seem to have put any time into getting that right, even though I probably use that more than anything else!

Where did you see the Brymen for $239?  Cheapest I could find was over $300.

Frankly, I don't have to be a "fanboy" anything.  You guys asked why people buy the Fluke instead.  I don't think most of us really care if you buy a $.99 multimeter from Harbor Freight.  We're simply answering the question that was asked.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 09:58:44 am by John Coloccia »
 

Offline Armxnian

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Pomona is the definition of overpriced garbage. And IIRC they are owned by Fluke. I ordered some BNC and banana to alligator cables from them, paying a lot more than other brands, thinking I was getting quality goods. The BNC jacks aren't even machined properly. You can see the metal where the bnc ball rolls into is crooked and requires a lot of force to tighten and untighten them. My $3 Amphenol bnc terminator tightens like butter and is precision machined. Most of their other cables, including the ones I got, are pvc and rated to 3A instead of 10A and something stupid like 30V DC if touching the INSULATED cable...

Based on Dave's video, the 869 has a ridiculously fast continuity tester, and is basically latched. It's $224 now on TME, I linked it in the first page.

You don't need a 99 cent harbor freight meter to last a life time if probing mains. It's the last thing you'll ever do.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 10:30:50 am by Armxnian »
 

Offline rolycat

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Pomona is the definition of overpriced garbage.

Nah, this £5000 Damien Hirst "artwork" consisting of full ashtrays, half-filled coffee cups, empty beer bottles and old newspapers is the definition of overpriced garbage.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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My pomona  probes are very nice, and less than $20. What are you talking about? They're nicer than the ones that originally came with the Fluke, and they're cheap.  :-//
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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How are your eyes not a valid way to verify build quality. What's the point of reviewers doing teardowns then. Anyone one with experience can tell if something is built well by looking at it. Your eyes are almost as good as a way to judge electrical test equipment build quality as actually using it.

I'm calling UL, TÜV, Veritas, Dekra and all the other and tell them they can close shop now...
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Online jadew

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The car analogy was funny, but wrong. A better analogy would be comparing a Hummer 1 to a new town car.

One camp keeps mentioning that "But the hummer can take bullets, can step on a land mine and will still work in 40 years with no maintenance." while the other camp argues for a car that has low consumption, handles better, is faster, has mp3 player, double AC, heated seats, voice recognition, a 5 star crash test rating and costs 3 times less.

I think that if you pay MORE for a meter that offers something you don't need and has less of something you actually need, just because it's a cool "war machine", you're just like the guys who buy Hummer 1s.
 

Offline Muxr

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Just off the top of my head, many Brymens have a crap continuity test, and even the 869, which is not bad, still isn't latching. They also have a crap warranty...1 year, I think.  Fluke is Lifetime.  Hey, no biggie.  That doesn't make Brymen terrible meters, but the idea that it's somehow "just as good" as a Fluke fails miserably with only about a second's worth of thought.  I don't even need to look at construction, performance, probes, etc.

re: Fluke Warranty
It's not 7-10 years.  It's 7 years after it's discontinued, with a MINIMUM of 10 years from the purchase date.

In the US at least, the only legit source of Brymens off the top of my head is Greenlee, and the DM860A is a good bit more than a Fluke 87.  Off Ebay, we're still paying $310 for a Brymen, and I can get an Fluke 87 new for $370.  The Greenlee badged Brymen will cost over $400. If you're going to be priced this closely to Fluke, you really need to blow me away with specs AND give me warm fuzzies that you'll last 20+ years.  Selling re-badged products, and also having such a wide range of quality from lowest to best, already makes me feel like they don't really give a crap about their brand beyond making some money.

Again, I really don't have anything against Brymen meters.  I think they make a fine meter that will probably last a good long time.  For a few bucks more (or a few bucks less if you're buying a Greenlee  :-DD), I can buy a Fluke that I KNOW will most likely outlast me.  Like so many others, I've had my Fluke for a LONG time.  It's had the crap beat out of it in some harsh settings, and has never done anything but work perfectly and reliably.  It's hard to imagine why I would buy a Brymen, though I understand the pricing is much different outside of the US.  If the price difference were $200 or more, I'd be a lot more inclined to take a chance.

I wouldn't pay $400 for an 869 rebadge. The Brymen one costs $230 because it has 1 year warranty. Personally I've never used a warranty on anything. I either take care of my product, or somehow end up destroying it past warranty coverages. I don't really care about the specs either, they aren't that drastic of a difference, I have a bench meter for accuracy and precision. But looking at Fluke's handheld dmm lineup, pretty much everything seems to be overpriced for electronics use. They have $200 meters that don't even have a microamp range. Either their lineup is designed for industrial electricians use or they just haven't updated anything.
I agree on the low end. I think something like a Brymen BM257 makes a lot of sense. If you only wanted to spend just above $100 I would probably get a Brymen.

Yeah most of Fluke's low end meters are really more suited to an Electrician. And it kind of makes sense. When they set out to design a meter they first design in the protection, and there isn't much budget left for the low power features. They don't cut corners on safety. Those HRC fuses aren't cheap, and they are a big portion of the meter budget. But some of it is also definitely because they don't want to cannibalize their product line.

I will admit that some of my preference for Fluke isn't exactly rational, that's the thing with preferences. I like the way it feels and looks, the specs it has are way past the level of sufficiency for what I use it for. But I also think that the specs on the Brymen are overstated. If I need 5 1/2 digit + resolution I use my bench meter. That's why they have a heated voltage ref. Something I would never want in a DMM for battery reasons.

87V's dial is the best dial I've used. The way it clicks into place is just different from any other brand. And it exudes quality.

There is definitely a "Fluke tax". But I wouldn't exactly call it overpriced. They are one of the rare companies who still make meters inhouse (not in Asia, at least their higher end products) and that means it costs more to produce. The quality advantage is definitely there.

Don't get me wrong though I am not saying Brymen isn't potentially a better bang for your buck, it perhaps is. But I like Fluke. And for an instrument I use daily and a product which lasts for decades, $80 saved on an off brand makes little sense. To me at least.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 04:47:30 pm by Muxr »
 

Offline HKJ

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I can say why I buy Fluke meters, this is because I want DMM's I can trust and is easy to use.
I do also buy Agilent Keysight, they are cheaper and I do also trust them, but they are more complicated to use.

If I had to be very careful with the money I would probably not buy Fluke.
 

Offline Lightages

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$224 + $35 shipping, 1 year warranty
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/#td89215072647ba5bb06d6bee18487a6f
You don't pay for the lifetime warranty but still get the same meter that is sold with one. To each his own.

$414 +$9 shipping, includes calibration certificate, lifetime warranty
http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-860A-C-COUNTS-DM-860A-CALIB/dp/B007YUIOXO
Yes, more expensive than the 87V and I am sure if it were that way for Brymen I would buy a Fluke too. The difference is the features and specs might push the Brymen over the Fluke in some eyes. There are some here that would argue neither is worth the money and you should rely on your cheap multimeter's leads to be the fuses.

"Crap continuity"? That is in the eye of the beholder. Some people prefer non-latched and some prefer.

As I said, people will buy what makes them more comfortable and Fluke has a long standing reputation that no one else has.
 

Offline XFDDesign

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How are your eyes not a valid way to verify build quality? That's like judging a meter's build quality by looking at the case that has no brand name.

I didn't even have to do any work.
 

Offline Armxnian

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How are your eyes not a valid way to verify build quality? That's like judging a meter's build quality by looking at the case that has no brand name.

I didn't even have to do any work.

If you're going to rearrange my words out of desperation at least make it so they make sense to what you write under it. If you can't tell if a piece of test equipment is built well or not by looking at the circuit design and components then you either have no experience or are damaged in one or more sensory receptors. Dave and other reviewers do teardowns and analyze the build quality of a product by looking at it. Are you saying that method is invalid? Your last two posts in reference to my original statement included a nonsensical car analogy and no mention on why what I said was questionable.
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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$224 + $35 shipping, 1 year warranty
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/#td89215072647ba5bb06d6bee18487a6f
You don't pay for the lifetime warranty but still get the same meter that is sold with one. To each his own.

$414 +$9 shipping, includes calibration certificate, lifetime warranty
http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-860A-C-COUNTS-DM-860A-CALIB/dp/B007YUIOXO
Yes, more expensive than the 87V and I am sure if it were that way for Brymen I would buy a Fluke too. The difference is the features and specs might push the Brymen over the Fluke in some eyes. There are some here that would argue neither is worth the money and you should rely on your cheap multimeter's leads to be the fuses.

"Crap continuity"? That is in the eye of the beholder. Some people prefer non-latched and some prefer.

As I said, people will buy what makes them more comfortable and Fluke has a long standing reputation that no one else has.

You missed the one without Calibration:
http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-DM-860A-DMM-500K-COUNTS/dp/B00J9S1P8A/ref=sr_1_10?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1435074267&sr=1-10&keywords=DM-860A

$347.87 + $9 shipping from the same seller as the one you linked to.

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Offline pascal_sweden

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What is preferred? Latched or non-latched? How to recognize for sure?
 

Offline Lightages

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Some people prefer latched, if it is fast enough. The reason is that it can catch a transient connection and hold it long enough for you to hear it. If it is not implemented correctly it can hold on to a latched condition too long and you can miss an intermittent connection, or it can wait to long to wait and miss a quick transient connection.

Some people prefer non-latched because it gives you the naked truth. But in giving you an unfiltered indication of a connection it can sound scratchy and weak. If a transient connection is to short you might not hear it whereas a properly implemented latched continuity tester might see the connection and present a long enough tone for you to hear it.

Generally latched continuity tests I have experienced are either too slow, hold too long, smooth over intermittent connections, or all three. fluke has some of the best implementations and I would have no problems living with theirs, but I still prefer non-latched naked truth.
 

Online Fungus

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Generally latched continuity tests I have experienced are either too slow, hold too long, smooth over intermittent connections, or all three. fluke has some of the best implementations and I would have no problems living with theirs, but I still prefer non-latched naked truth.
I wonder why it isn't user-selectable...
 

Offline nukie

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How many of you on this thread actually own a Brymen and a Fluke of the same class? I don't have a Brymen but plenty of Fluke. This thread makes me want a Brymen.
 

Offline Lightages

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I have a Fluke 27/FM and a number of different models of Brymen. I would not say they the 27/FM and any of my Brymens are in the same class. The 27/FM is a ruggedized and water proof meter with good basic functions and good accuracy. I purchased it to have for this function, and it was a bargain with the HV probe, RF probe, and case it came with on ebay when I purchased it.

If I had a Fluke 87V then I would probably say it would match up well with a BM829s in features. They go back and forth on some features and accuracy on different functions. Other than the warranty difference and reputation for the Fluke and PC connection possibility for the Brymen they are close to being equal.

Fluke 87V: around $400
BM829s:  around $200 (shipped to your door) or Greenlee version with lifetime warranty: around $240

Edit:

If you consider the BM869s: It out features the Fluke 87V, and has better accuracy and 50000/500000 counts, it costs less than $310 shipped to your door. The Fluke has a couple of features the Brymen doesn't, like auto hold for example, but the total count puts the BM869s far over in feature count. This and the 829 and 869 are CATIV/1000V safety too.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 05:40:33 am by Lightages »
 

Offline Muxr

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Brymen's price is what makes it an interesting proposition, even though you have to order it from overseas if you live in the US, as the Greenly equivalent is more expensive, although you do get lifetime warranty with Greenly like you do with a new Fluke. On the other hand, there are great deals on 87V on ebay you can snatch all the time if you look around, since it's a much more popular meter. There are tons of Flukes on Ebay.

87V's feature set includes some must haves for me that BM lacks, auto hold is a big one (I use it often, even on your bench it's handy to be able to refer to the last reading while you're going through a service manual for the thing you're trying to troubleshoot), fast latched continuity (could probably live with scratchy continuity but that feels like using a $10 meter), Fluke is also smaller (more room on the bench), 400 battery life vs 100 on BM..

Few other things, 87V is better at: transient peak performance, you can test Zener diodes with Fluke with 7.9V voltage instead of 3.5, can withstand higher humidity. There are also small things like being able to center the bar graph, some other nifty power on features. Reputation to take abuse and perform in spec for decades.

Aside from the AC defaulting in the current measurement mode (there's a safety argument for this), Fluke is great to use ergonomically, and everything makes logical sense. For instance if you're measuring in min/max mode, the auto power off is disabled. It's the little things like these where you realize it's a well thought out product.

I own a  27/FM but the 87V is a notch above in build quality imo (not ruggedness). What I mean by that is that 87V just feels like it was made of better material. The dial is the best dial I've ever used.

The biggest feature BM offers imo is resolution. But I find myself rarely even taking the advantage of 20K resolution mode on my 87s (I have a 5 1/2 digit bench meter which I rarely use.), whereas I couldn't live without auto hold. So when I considered getting a BM869s I got a 2nd 87V instead.

But bottom line is if none of the features are a deal breaker for you: If you live in the US and have a limited budget and don't mind a 2nd hand ebay meter, there is very little reason to get a BM. As you can often score an 87V for less. If you want new and cheap, especially if you live outside of US, there are good reasons to go with Brymen. But if you want a good quality meter that will serve you for decades, you can't go wrong with an 87V.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 06:42:11 am by Muxr »
 

Offline retiredcaps

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I have searched in the past and recently, but I cannot find anywhere on Greenlee's website their definition in concrete terms what "lifetime" warranty means in terms of years.

For example, here is Fluke's warranty statement straight from the Fluke user manual.

Each Fluke 20, 70, 80, 170 and 180 Series DMM will be free from defects in material and workmanship for its lifetime. As used herein, “lifetime” is defined as seven years after Fluke discontinues manufacturing the product, but the warranty period shall be at least ten years from the date of purchase.

QUESTION.

What is Greenlee's equivalent statement in number of years in a clear statement like Fluke's above?
 

Offline Lightages

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From one of the Greenlee manuals:

Quote
Lifetime Limited Warranty
Greenlee Textron Inc. warrants to the original purchaser of these goods for use that these
products
will be free from defects in workmanship and material for their useful life, excepting normal wear and
abuse. This warranty is subject to the same terms and conditions contained in Greenlee Textron Inc.’s
standard one-year limited warranty
 

Offline Deckert

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Generally latched continuity tests I have experienced are either too slow, hold too long, smooth over intermittent connections, or all three. fluke has some of the best implementations and I would have no problems living with theirs, but I still prefer non-latched naked truth.

Fully agreed. I like Fluke's fast latched continuity test, but I had this one instance where it let me down:

I was diagnosing a problem an older function generator - it had an noisy amplitude on the output. I was checking continuity on the selector knob that handles the different amplitude intervals. Basically it has one ground-pin and 4 pins used for 0.01V, 0.1V, 1V and 10 V outputs. Testing with my Fluke 177 revealed no issued with the switch.

Eventually, testing with the Brymen immediately revealed a scratchy sound on the switch contacts when you fiddle with the knob - that meant they were dirty and required cleaning with some contact cleaner.

--deckert
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Generally latched continuity tests I have experienced are either too slow, hold too long, smooth over intermittent connections, or all three. fluke has some of the best implementations and I would have no problems living with theirs, but I still prefer non-latched naked truth.
I wonder why it isn't user-selectable...
Good point! Why not make it user selectable: latched or non-latched, and also make the interval width configurable to fine tune to user needs/wishes.
 

Offline Muxr

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Latched is supposed to make you hear a quick short, something you would miss on a non latched tester. Fast latched continuity is the way to go. Problem is most meters are slow at latching which gives latching a bad name. But fast continuity like on the 87 is superior to non-latching continuity testing.
 

Offline iloveelectronics

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Latched is supposed to make you hear a quick short, something you would miss on a non latched tester. Fast latched continuity is the way to go. Problem is most meters are slow at latching which gives latching a bad name. But fast continuity like on the 87 is superior to non-latching continuity testing.

A fast latched continuity tester is pleasant to listen to but how do you tell if you have a dirty contact?
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Online Wytnucls

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Because it is not necessary. Top-tier meters all have latched continuity and can detect shorts of minute duration. Often, the resistance threshold can be adjusted by the user. On the Gossen 26S for instance, sensitivity can be adjusted from 1 to 300 ohms.
 

Offline Muxr

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Latched is supposed to make you hear a quick short, something you would miss on a non latched tester. Fast latched continuity is the way to go. Problem is most meters are slow at latching which gives latching a bad name. But fast continuity like on the 87 is superior to non-latching continuity testing.

A fast latched continuity tester is pleasant to listen to but how do you tell if you have a dirty contact?
The same way it detects quick shorts it detects quick opens. So it should still work the same. It's latching so it won't change the state as fast but at least you won't miss really short opens or shorts.
 

Offline Marco

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Ideally a latched continuity tester would change it's latching condition based on it's output level. So it would detect minute shorts when not beeping and minute breaks when beeping (which it would only act on after the latching period obviously).
 

Offline Lightages

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Latched is supposed to make you hear a quick short, something you would miss on a non latched tester. Fast latched continuity is the way to go. Problem is most meters are slow at latching which gives latching a bad name. But fast continuity like on the 87 is superior to non-latching continuity testing.

A fast latched continuity tester is pleasant to listen to but how do you tell if you have a dirty contact?
The same way it detects quick shorts it detects quick opens. So it should still work the same. It's latching so it won't change the state as fast but at least you won't miss really short opens or shorts.

It is personal preference rather than a real benefit, IMHO.

Generally latched continuity tests I have experienced are either too slow, hold too long, smooth over intermittent connections, or all three. fluke has some of the best implementations and I would have no problems living with theirs, but I still prefer non-latched naked truth.

Fully agreed. I like Fluke's fast latched continuity test, but I had this one instance where it let me down:

I was diagnosing a problem an older function generator - it had an noisy amplitude on the output. I was checking continuity on the selector knob that handles the different amplitude intervals. Basically it has one ground-pin and 4 pins used for 0.01V, 0.1V, 1V and 10 V outputs. Testing with my Fluke 177 revealed no issued with the switch.

Eventually, testing with the Brymen immediately revealed a scratchy sound on the switch contacts when you fiddle with the knob - that meant they were dirty and required cleaning with some contact cleaner.

 

Offline Marco

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The same way it detects quick shorts it detects quick opens. So it should still work the same. It's latching so it won't change the state as fast but at least you won't miss really short opens or shorts.

If it's a simple latch&reset circuit the chance of detecting an intermittent open is small (it has to happen immediately after the reset period AND last long enough to be noticeable).
 

Offline Muxr

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The same way it detects quick shorts it detects quick opens. So it should still work the same. It's latching so it won't change the state as fast but at least you won't miss really short opens or shorts.

If it's a simple latch&reset circuit the chance of detecting an intermittent open is small (it has to happen immediately after the reset period AND last long enough to be noticeable).
I disagree, once latched it reacts to open just as fast, provided the reset period has passed (the point of a latch, so your human ears can detect fast changes). For instance I can take two perfectly clean probes and just swipe/rub them together, and I will get beeps, even though I was maintaining contact the entire time on perfectly clean probes. So this tells me it is a.) quick b.) very sensitive.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 06:07:31 pm by Muxr »
 

Offline Muxr

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Latched is supposed to make you hear a quick short, something you would miss on a non latched tester. Fast latched continuity is the way to go. Problem is most meters are slow at latching which gives latching a bad name. But fast continuity like on the 87 is superior to non-latching continuity testing.

A fast latched continuity tester is pleasant to listen to but how do you tell if you have a dirty contact?
The same way it detects quick shorts it detects quick opens. So it should still work the same. It's latching so it won't change the state as fast but at least you won't miss really short opens or shorts.

It is personal preference rather than a real benefit, IMHO.

Generally latched continuity tests I have experienced are either too slow, hold too long, smooth over intermittent connections, or all three. fluke has some of the best implementations and I would have no problems living with theirs, but I still prefer non-latched naked truth.

Fully agreed. I like Fluke's fast latched continuity test, but I had this one instance where it let me down:

I was diagnosing a problem an older function generator - it had an noisy amplitude on the output. I was checking continuity on the selector knob that handles the different amplitude intervals. Basically it has one ground-pin and 4 pins used for 0.01V, 0.1V, 1V and 10 V outputs. Testing with my Fluke 177 revealed no issued with the switch.

Eventually, testing with the Brymen immediately revealed a scratchy sound on the switch contacts when you fiddle with the knob - that meant they were dirty and required cleaning with some contact cleaner.
The advantages of a latched continuity test are self evident, beyond anecdotal evidence. So it's not just a preference.
 

Offline Marco

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I disagree, once latched it reacts to open just as fast, provided the reset period has passed (the point of a latch, so your human ears can detect fast changes).

That's how it would ideally work ... only latching shorts, but not opens, is a far more straightforward circuit to create though.
 

Offline Muxr

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I disagree, once latched it reacts to open just as fast, provided the reset period has passed (the point of a latch, so your human ears can detect fast changes).

That's how it would ideally work ... only latching shorts, but not opens, is a far more straightforward circuit to create though.
Yup, that's how it works on my 87V here. It fast latches on both shorts and opens.
 

Offline XFDDesign

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How many of you on this thread actually own a Brymen and a Fluke of the same class? I don't have a Brymen but plenty of Fluke. This thread makes me want a Brymen.

I would be curious to see what Brymen has to compete on the benchmeter space, but no one has suggested a thing. I actually have a few Fluke bench meters so I could do an A-to-B comparison.
 

Offline Lightages

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The advantages of a latched continuity test are self evident, beyond anecdotal evidence. So it's not just a preference.

Really? You discount the actual use of two types of continuity and the failure of one to solve the problem, while the other did? That is more than "self evident" as it is a real world example. It is not anecdotal, it is an empirical result. Belief does not overcome real world results....  :wtf:
 

Online Wytnucls

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Tell Keysight, Fluke or Gossen that you like their meters, but they've got it wrong with their continuity detection and you may raise a few eyebrows.
 

Offline Muxr

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The advantages of a latched continuity test are self evident, beyond anecdotal evidence. So it's not just a preference.

Really? You discount the actual use of two types of continuity and the failure of one to solve the problem, while the other did? That is more than "self evident" as it is a real world example. It is not anecdotal, it is an empirical result. Belief does not overcome real world results....  :wtf:
I didn't want to be rude, but I don't believe the evidence presented is actually a valid test. I challenge anyone to reproduce it. If I can rub two perfectly clean probes together without ever breaking contact and get consistent beeps, then I am confident a faulty contact would have beeped as well. I've never heard anyone complain about Fluke's continuity, it's generally considered one of the best in the industry.

Now it is possible the potentiometer he was testing may have been triggering different threshold regions and the two meters might have different thresholds (they probably do), but that's more of Brymen getting lucky than a valid comparison. On a different resistance, Fluke will detect what Brymen won't etc..

Brymen didn't implement some more advanced contact detection method. It's just a non latching continuity test, something Beckman and Fluke improved upon 30-40 years ago.

Fluke 87V's continuity test detects opens or shorts down to a single millisecond. A pulse 3 milliseconds long must have a level about 15dB higher to sound as loud as a 0.5-second (500 millisecond) pulse. Tones and random noise follow roughly the same relationship in loudness vs. pulse length. Something you would never hear out of a buzzer if the continuity test wasn't latching.

There is no question, fast latching continuity test is superior.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 11:17:36 pm by Muxr »
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Tell Keysight, Fluke or Gossen that you like their meters, but they've got it wrong with their continuity detection and you may raise a few eyebrows.

I cannot speak for Fluke or Gossen, but the guys are Keysight seem to really welcome feedback that may be dubious. They may ask questions to dig deeper and find out what it is you're really trying to get out of the thing and, if it's possible, show you how to do it with the existing product. If they can't, and they think their solution is better, they're very good at explaining why they came to the decision they did. It makes a very compelling case. Pretty good bunch of guys.
 

Online Wytnucls

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From Wikipedia:

There are times when a simple continuity test fails to reveal the problem. For example, vibration-induced problems in automobile wiring can be extremely difficult to detect because a short or open is not maintained long enough for a standard tester to respond.

In these applications a latching continuity tester is used. A more complex device, it detects intermittent opens and shorts as well as steady-state conditions.[3] These devices contain a fast acting electronic switch (generally a Schmitt trigger) forming a gated astable oscillator which detects and locks (latches) the indicator on an intermittent condition with a duration of less than a millisecond
 

Offline Lightages

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Tell Keysight, Fluke or Gossen that you like their meters, but they've got it wrong with their continuity detection and you may raise a few eyebrows.

I don't care whose eyebrows I raise. I stated a preference and did not say that one method was demonstrably and objectively better than another. If someone else likes latched better, who cares? I don't. I was merely answering a question why some like non-latched and why some prefer latched.
 

Offline Lightages

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The advantages of a latched continuity test are self evident, beyond anecdotal evidence. So it's not just a preference.

Really? You discount the actual use of two types of continuity and the failure of one to solve the problem, while the other did? That is more than "self evident" as it is a real world example. It is not anecdotal, it is an empirical result. Belief does not overcome real world results....  :wtf:
I didn't want to be rude, but I don't believe the evidence presented is actually a valid test. I challenge anyone to reproduce it. If I can rub two perfectly clean probes together without ever breaking contact and get consistent beeps, then I am confident a faulty contact would have beeped as well. I've never heard anyone complain about Fluke's continuity, it's generally considered one of the best in the industry.

Now it is possible the potentiometer he was testing may have been triggering different threshold regions and the two meters might have different thresholds (they probably do), but that's more of Brymen getting lucky than a valid comparison. On a different resistance, Fluke will detect what Brymen won't etc..

Brymen didn't implement some more advanced contact detection method. It's just a non latching continuity test, something Beckman and Fluke improved upon 30-40 years ago.

Fluke 87V's continuity test detects opens or shorts down to a single millisecond. A pulse 3 milliseconds long must have a level about 15dB higher to sound as loud as a 0.5-second (500 millisecond) pulse. Tones and random noise follow roughly the same relationship in loudness vs. pulse length. Something you would never hear out of a buzzer if the continuity test wasn't latching.

There is no question, fast latching continuity test is superior.

I simply stated why people might prefer one mode over another. A person jumped in to say that he actually had a case where my preference was justified. Now you call him a liar, incompetent or mistaken. You do this with what evidence?

Prefer latched or non-latched, I DON"T CARE. I was merely answering why some people prefer it and some don't. It was not a statement of a fact as to which was objectively better. I even said that latched could detect things that non-latched could not. I hate straw men.
 

Offline Lightages

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Generally latched continuity tests I have experienced are either too slow, hold too long, smooth over intermittent connections, or all three. fluke has some of the best implementations and I would have no problems living with theirs, but I still prefer non-latched naked truth.
I wonder why it isn't user-selectable...

I agree,that would be the best of both worlds!
 

Offline Muxr

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The advantages of a latched continuity test are self evident, beyond anecdotal evidence. So it's not just a preference.

Really? You discount the actual use of two types of continuity and the failure of one to solve the problem, while the other did? That is more than "self evident" as it is a real world example. It is not anecdotal, it is an empirical result. Belief does not overcome real world results....  :wtf:
I didn't want to be rude, but I don't believe the evidence presented is actually a valid test. I challenge anyone to reproduce it. If I can rub two perfectly clean probes together without ever breaking contact and get consistent beeps, then I am confident a faulty contact would have beeped as well. I've never heard anyone complain about Fluke's continuity, it's generally considered one of the best in the industry.

Now it is possible the potentiometer he was testing may have been triggering different threshold regions and the two meters might have different thresholds (they probably do), but that's more of Brymen getting lucky than a valid comparison. On a different resistance, Fluke will detect what Brymen won't etc..

Brymen didn't implement some more advanced contact detection method. It's just a non latching continuity test, something Beckman and Fluke improved upon 30-40 years ago.

Fluke 87V's continuity test detects opens or shorts down to a single millisecond. A pulse 3 milliseconds long must have a level about 15dB higher to sound as loud as a 0.5-second (500 millisecond) pulse. Tones and random noise follow roughly the same relationship in loudness vs. pulse length. Something you would never hear out of a buzzer if the continuity test wasn't latching.

There is no question, fast latching continuity test is superior.

I simply stated why people might prefer one mode over another. A person jumped in to say that he actually had a case where my preference was justified. Now you call him a liar, incompetent or mistaken. You do this with what evidence?

Prefer latched or non-latched, I DON"T CARE. I was merely answering why some people prefer it and some don't. It was not a statement of a fact as to which was objectively better. I even said that latched could detect things that non-latched could not. I hate straw men.
Never called him a liar. If you bothered to read my response you would have noticed I had a perfectly good explanation as to why different continuity thresholds may produce different results in a specific scenario when measuring at a certain resistance bias, this has nothing to do with latched vs unlatched continuity. You somehow used this one corner case to equate the technical merits between latched and non latched continuity tests, which is wrong.

Let me elaborate. Let's say Fluke has a 5 ohm threshold, and Brymen has a 10 ohm threshold when measuring continuity. If you're measuring a potentiometer which has a bad contact at the 10 ohm region, then Brymen is going to exhibit scratchiness. Because the potentiometer is exhibiting the issue right at the threshold Brymen happens to use for continuity. But that doesn't make it better. Because you could be measuring a faulty potentiometer which has issues at 5 ohms. And then Fluke would beep and indicate an issue and Brymen wouldn't. This has nothing to do with the continuity test functionality. As we're only talking thresholds here and neither is better, you can just get lucky with one or the other. So it's not a valid test.

You may prefer non latched continuity tests, but you're simply wrong. Properly implemented latched continuity tests are superior in every way.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 12:01:08 am by Muxr »
 

Online Wytnucls

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The thing is that there is no valid reason to prefer a non-latched over a latched system. The latched system is always better, when it is implemented properly. It's like saying you prefer dirt roads over paved ones.
Professional systems can latch on nano second transients, easily missed otherwise.
As for anecdotal evidence, there is one Canadian professional quoted in the Fluke app notes stating the complete reverse of what Deckert was saying. So, go figure.
 

Offline Lightages

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Never called him a liar. If you bothered to read my response you would have noticed I had a perfectly good explanation as to why different continuity thresholds may produce different results in a specific scenario when measuring at a certain resistance bias, this has nothing to do with latched vs unlatched continuity. You somehow used this one corner case to equate the technical merits between latched and non latched continuity tests, which is wrong.

Let me elaborate. Let's say Fluke has a 5 ohm threshold, and Brymen has a 10 ohm threshold when measuring continuity. If you're measuring a potentiometer which has a bad contact at the 10 ohm region, then Brymen is going to exhibit scratchiness. Because the potentiometer is exhibiting the issue right at the threshold Brymen happens to use for continuity. But that doesn't make it better. Because you could be measuring a faulty potentiometer which has issues at 5 ohms. And then Fluke would beep and indicate an issue and Brymen wouldn't. This has nothing to do with the continuity test functionality. As we're only talking thresholds here and neither is better, you can just get lucky with one or the other. So it's not a valid test.

You may prefer non latched continuity tests, but you're simply wrong. Properly implemented latched continuity tests are superior in every way.

If you bothered to read his post.... it was not a potentiometer, it was a switch. You don't want to be rude, but are willing to not even read the post correctly and are willing to make a whole argument based on the wrong assumption.

I cannot be wrong on a preference, silly assertion. I said, and let me restate, that a latched continuity test can capture events that you might miss without. Can you read? I said more than twice now.  |O
 

Offline Lightages

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The thing is that there is no valid reason to prefer a non-latched over a latched system. The latched system is always better, when it is implemented properly. It's like saying you prefer dirt roads over paved ones.
Professional systems can latch on nano second transients, easily missed otherwise.
As for anecdotal evidence, there is one Canadian professional quoted in the Fluke app notes stating the complete reverse of what Deckert was saying. So, go figure.

So one person supports the assertion that latched continuity was better in one situation, and that negates anything anyone else has to say about their experience in another situation? Really? You believe that? Because of that selective bias I can understand why you think you can assert that there is no valid reason. If you throw away data that contradicts your position, of course you have no valid reason (data) to support otherwise.
 

Offline Muxr

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The thing is that there is no valid reason to prefer a non-latched over a latched system. The latched system is always better, when it is implemented properly. It's like saying you prefer dirt roads over paved ones.
Professional systems can latch on nano second transients, easily missed otherwise.
As for anecdotal evidence, there is one Canadian professional quoted in the Fluke app notes stating the complete reverse of what Deckert was saying. So, go figure.

So one person supports the assertion that latched continuity was better in one situation, and that negates anything anyone else has to say about their experience in another situation? Really? You believe that? Because of that selective bias I can understand why you think you can assert that there is no valid reason. If you throw away data that contradicts your position, of course you have no valid reason (data) to support otherwise.
But we have data to support our claims. You have 2nd hand anecdotal evidence.
 

Offline Lightages

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Data, you have provided data?  :-//

Where?

I cannot provide evidence for a preference. A preference is a personal thing, not necessarily based on the same reasons as another person's. Again,for the fourth time, I have said that latched continuity can catch things that a non-latched might not. Have you read that enough times yet? Maybe you thought I was talking about potentiometers too.
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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I can't see any data that has already been presented in the thread either.
Please point it out.

Also when it comes to bad analogies, this one is up there.
Quote
The latched system is always better, when it is implemented properly. It's like saying you prefer dirt roads over paved ones.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 03:26:31 am by HackedFridgeMagnet »
 

Offline Muxr

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Calm down. Few posts back I've covered the effect of millisecond sounds on the human ability to hear them, the reason behind latching in the first place. 87V can detect 250 microsecond opens or shorts, which on an unlatched meter is inaudible. It's the only "data" on the topic, filled with hearsay and anecdotal evidence so I understand how you could miss it.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 03:29:16 am by Muxr »
 

Offline Lightages

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Calm down. Few posts back I've covered the effect of millisecond sounds on the human ability to hear them, the reason behind latching in the first place. 87V can detect 250 microsecond opens or shorts, which on an unlatched meter is inaudible. It's the only "data" on the topic, filled with hearsay and anecdotal evidence so I understand how you could miss it.

and you also said:

Quote
Fluke 87V's continuity test detects opens or shorts down to a single millisecond. A pulse 3 milliseconds long must have a level about 15dB higher to sound as loud as a 0.5-second (500 millisecond) pulse. Tones and random noise follow roughly the same relationship in loudness vs. pulse length. Something you would never hear out of a buzzer if the continuity test wasn't latching.

Which is correct? 1mS or 250uS? Your assertions on the audibility thresholds might be correct, but is not data. Do you have any references?

I am calm, just can't believe the blind assertions and the errors in logic.
 

Offline Muxr

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Calm down. Few posts back I've covered the effect of millisecond sounds on the human ability to hear them, the reason behind latching in the first place. 87V can detect 250 microsecond opens or shorts, which on an unlatched meter is inaudible. It's the only "data" on the topic, filled with hearsay and anecdotal evidence so I understand how you could miss it.

and you also said:

Quote
Fluke 87V's continuity test detects opens or shorts down to a single millisecond. A pulse 3 milliseconds long must have a level about 15dB higher to sound as loud as a 0.5-second (500 millisecond) pulse. Tones and random noise follow roughly the same relationship in loudness vs. pulse length. Something you would never hear out of a buzzer if the continuity test wasn't latching.

Which is correct? 1mS or 250uS? Your assertions on the audibility thresholds might be correct, but is not data. Do you have any references?

I am calm, just can't believe the blind assertions and the errors in logic.
Both are correct.

edit, also: https://sound.stackexchange.com/questions/28163/whats-the-shortest-sound-perceptible-to-the-human-ear
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 03:46:04 am by Muxr »
 

Offline Lightages

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Where did the first screen shot come from? I have seen the 1mS spec in the 87V manual, but I am not familiar with the 250uS spec.
 

Offline Muxr

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Offline Lightages

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Thank you.  :)
 

Offline Muxr

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No problemo  :-DMM
 

Offline Lightages

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No problemo  :-DMM

Is that an obscure reference to WKRP? if so  :-+ :-+ :-+
 

Offline Muxr

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No problemo  :-DMM

Is that an obscure reference to WKRP? if so  :-+ :-+ :-+
No, sorry, I say it all the time..  :)
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Interesting thread to read considering I have a Brymen BM869S coming in soon for review! I used to have an 87V but sold it a while back. It was a nice meter, solidly built but at the same time didn't feel like anything super special. If anything felt a bit dated. It's kinda like a 1990s Honda Civic. Nothing special stands out but you can run that bastard in to the ground and that is why it has the good reputation that it has. It doesn't feel like it was ever intended for real electronics work, more for industrial electrician work but there is nothign wrong with that.

As for latched/unlatched I wish there was a selectable option because there are times I like each.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline Muxr

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Interesting thread to read considering I have a Brymen BM869S coming in soon for review! I used to have an 87V but sold it a while back. It was a nice meter, solidly built but at the same time didn't feel like anything super special. If anything felt a bit dated. It's kinda like a 1990s Honda Civic. Nothing special stands out but you can run that bastard in to the ground and that is why it has the good reputation that it has. It doesn't feel like it was ever intended for real electronics work, more for industrial electrician work but there is nothign wrong with that.

As for latched/unlatched I wish there was a selectable option because there are times I like each.
87V's biggest strength is that it has a simple UI. For a day to day meter I'd take an 87V over a "modern" Fluke 287 exactly for that reason. Can't think of an outdated feature about it. The whole point of it is a great all around easy to use and fast meter with a 400 hour battery life. It's as dependable as it gets. Besides can't think of a single "modern" essential feature it lacks.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #158 on: August 18, 2015, 01:16:29 am »

The retail price of the 87v is $300-350. Doesn't matter what you got it for on eBay using buy it now when talking about regular price.

Also the bm869 is $230. http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/

Is there a distributor in the USA?  If not, any reason why?
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #159 on: August 18, 2015, 01:26:49 am »

The retail price of the 87v is $300-350. Doesn't matter what you got it for on eBay using buy it now when talking about regular price.

Also the bm869 is $230. http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/

Is there a distributor in the USA?  If not, any reason why?
Currently, there isn't a Brymen distributor in the US.

I'm not sure they actually have distributors at all. But there may also be non-compete agreement/s with their ODM customers that sell in the US, such as Greenlee and Mastech, that would prevent an someone selling them here under the Brymen label.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #160 on: August 18, 2015, 01:57:56 am »
Is there a re-branded version of this meter?   I looked and did not find one.   

Any problems with using TME? 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #161 on: August 18, 2015, 02:06:41 am »
Is there a re-branded version of this meter?   I looked and did not find one.   

Any problems with using TME?

Greenlee DM-860A is a rebranded Brymen BM869S. It is more expensive but it comes with a lifetime warranty.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #162 on: August 18, 2015, 03:46:45 am »
Thanks.   I see a new home meter in my future....
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline retiredcaps

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #163 on: August 18, 2015, 03:57:02 am »
Thanks.   I see a new home meter in my future....
I have brought this up before in other threads, but there is no quantifiable answer that has been given.  If you buy a Greenlee, ask the authorized dealer this.

In terms of years, what does Greenlee's multimeter lifetime warranty mean?  For example, with a Fluke 87V, you get a minimum of 10 years warranty.  This is clearly written right on the 87V manual.

Where on Greenlee's website is a written policy on the number of years?

Weasel wording, marketing brochures do not count.  What is it in number of years?
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #164 on: August 18, 2015, 04:49:23 am »
Quote
For questions regarding this policy, contact:
Customer Support · 1-800-435-0786

I assume you called them.  What did they say?     I also put in a request for that and along with a few other questions I have about this meter.  I'll let you know their response.   

Looks like about $100 increase from Greenlee using Amazon.   That's a pretty good profit.  I wonder if it is the exact same meter besides the case color and markings.   
More on par with what I was wanting from Fluke.   To get the basic AC+DC put me into the slow booting,  power starved unit.    Dave's review on it was helpful.   

« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 05:11:52 am by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Lightages

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Offline retiredcaps

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #166 on: August 18, 2015, 05:35:51 am »
Quote
For questions regarding this policy, contact:
Customer Support · 1-800-435-0786

I assume you called them.  What did they say?
A verbal response or written email response from one customer service support personnel is NOT the same as what should be clearly written on Greenlee's website.

Imagine calling Greenlee 15 months later for a problem and saying well customer support person xyz back in Aug 2015 told me it was "lifetime" and then being told by customer support person abc saying that xyz no longer works here and that he was wrong.

Customer support personnel should send/refer to a link on their public website that clearly states the warranty in terms on number of years.

My question to Greenlee is a simple one?  How many years is a Greenlee multimeter under warranty?  1? 5? 10?

Their manual states "useful life".  Useful life is subject to wide interpretation and IMHO weasel wording.

PS. I see a lot of misinformation regarding Fluke multimeters with respect to warranty.  Many people incorrectly assume/state how Fluke's warranty work and buy based on those incorrect assumptions.  These assumptions are also being made with Greenlee products.

PPS. I have no financial affiliation with Fluke and/or Greenlee.  All I'm trying to do is find a concrete answer so others can make an informed decision when choosing their multimeter.  I could care less what people buy as long as it meets their requirements.
 

Offline Robomeds

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #167 on: August 18, 2015, 05:37:41 am »
Way late to this party but why should that stop me. 

I've had a number of meters recently (buying and selling on ebay when I find deals really helps).  What I've found is the 87 just seems to be a meter that never disappoints*.  I have an 87-5 and had an 87-4, 87-3 and 87-1.  I've also had a number of other Flukes including several 11x series, 170 series and older models.  I have not used the current crop of larger Brymens like the 869.  Looks nice... looks big.  I have used the Brymen designed Amprobe AM-270 (older design) and the Greenlee 200a (smaller, current Brymen).  I have real trouble suggesting someone gets a Fluke over a Brymen if they are going out and paying sticker.  Even on ebay where deals can be had Brymen has been better for me.  I found a like new AM-270 for $40.  My Greenless 200a was almost free.  It was given to me because it didn't work.  Turns out the trace to the ground lug was blown.  A bit of solder and a wire later and the thing works again.**  So having used those as well as my Metrix and some others I just feel like Fluke, the 87 in particular seems to rarely disappoint.  The 87 just seems to work right.  The display seems to show just what I want to see and nothing else.  The bar graph seems to move quickly and in all modes.  The Greenless (small Brymen) seems to have a slow graph update speed.  The bends on the leads aways seem to stick out over the edge.  The switch doesn't feel as nice.  These are all trivial things and it's worth noting they don't require you to pull the case appear to replace fuses.  Still, the 87 just seems to feel right, the display works nicely in all modes.  It's all non-specific stuff but, and I hate to say this, it's a bit like Apple in that you get the feeling if a feature was left out it was because it wasn't needed. 

In comparing the electrician Flukes the Brymen I actually prefer the Brymens.  Cheaper and I feel like they do a bit more stuff for the same money.  The Fluke wins in build quality but the Greenlee's probes are better (that seems to be a reseller specific choice).  However, the Greenlee just seems to work well as an electricians meter.  Things change when we step up to the 87.  It's just such a good meter it's hard to pick something else... including the 87-4.  The Amprobe is a great deal at ~$120 on Amazon.  Great value but not quite as nice as the Fluke in many ways.  I recommend the Amprobe to people who want a "good" meter but wouldn't pay $300+ for a new 87-5.  If I had to buy a new (non-used) meter the Am-270 would top my list.  Still, it doesn't feel as nice.  The display is good but not quite as nice to read as the Fluke's.  All and all it's like getting a high end Toyota and then comparing it to a lower end Mercedes or Caddy.  The luxury brands are just nicer but they cost more for similar specs.  Part of that extra cost goes into the little things.  Things Fluke pays for and Amprobe doesn't.

Anyway, high risk safety aside, I think the 87 is no better on paper but just feels nicer to use in real life.  But there is a reason why I'm more likely to buy a top end Toyota vs a luxury brand car.  I just can't see spending the extra at retail prices. 

*Well almost.  The LCD's contrast was better on the 87-3, as was the bar graph.  Also the previously mentioned mA AC vs DC thing. 

** Clearly the meter was shorted.  The HRC fuse was blown but it appears that was not enough to protect the input trace.  Since short circuits are something that is almost to be expected it makes me wonder about what killed the meter and would a Fluke have walked away with only a blown fuse?
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #168 on: August 18, 2015, 07:22:40 am »
Any problems with using TME?
A number of members have bought from there without issues, including from the US.  :)
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #169 on: August 18, 2015, 07:39:36 am »
I've had a few problems with TME, minor ones though - and something you could expect from most suppliers. They will run out of stock of something I've ordered without telling me (even though it shows in stock on their website), and just ship my package with orders missing. They will reschedule a shipment for the missing orders awaiting stock, a couple of weeks will pass and they'll cancel the orders and refund the money for it. They've done this with plain resistors, so not something that became obsolete either.

It's a real PITA when you have a project and you need those parts!
I collect [corporate] mugs.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #170 on: August 18, 2015, 11:15:08 am »

My question to Greenlee is a simple one?  How many years is a Greenlee multimeter under warranty?  1? 5? 10?


So, you would rather rant on a public forum than try and solve it?   

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/greenlee-lifetime-warranty-an-answer-almost/msg710524/#msg710524

Already waiting for them to make it clearer.
:-+   


Good info on TME.  Thanks!   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #171 on: August 18, 2015, 12:13:36 pm »
I've had a few problems with TME, minor ones though - and something you could expect from most suppliers. They will run out of stock of something I've ordered without telling me (even though it shows in stock on their website), and just ship my package with orders missing. They will reschedule a shipment for the missing orders awaiting stock, a couple of weeks will pass and they'll cancel the orders and refund the money for it. They've done this with plain resistors, so not something that became obsolete either.

It's a real PITA when you have a project and you need those parts!
That would be annoying.

BTW, has this issue been with just parts, or has it extended to T&M gear in your experience?
 

Offline saturation

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #172 on: August 18, 2015, 02:05:14 pm »
There are no large scale comparisons published I can recall but in a past life, early 1990s, many thousands of DMM were bought by the US government over a 3-4 year span, including Fluke 70s, maybe 80s, Taiwan and Korean model re-brands, [Sperry, B&K, etc.,].  The idea then was any maker who met the specs of the bid, submitted a few samples for testing, were purchasable. 

These devices were rated to operated in harsh environments: year long treks at sea, deserts, jungles, ant/arctic,  at or above rated altitude, and other things.  They were used in electrically "dirty" conditions, working on life and death mission critical sort of things.  The same devices could travel to environmental extremes depending on the technician sent there, or the devices stayed in a harsh environment as part of a tool kit.

By late 1990s, the initially procured Fluke brand meters operated as specified, even those heavily abused.  Of other brands a good minority malfunctioned, over time the Fluke's remained and replacements were nearly all Flukes.  Of the non-Fluke procurement, some too malfunction, so by the mid 2000, nearly all DMM purchases are Fluke with little turnover of DMMs today due to malfunction.  Its unclear which non-Fluke models those were.

So, initial higher purchase price was recouped over the much longer operational use, low maintenance from ruggedness and calibration stability.   While that experience speaks for Fluke and not Brymen, a competitor would have to live to up a similar reputation that took decades to establish across a single large organization.


An 87V at McMurdo:

« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 03:43:23 pm by saturation »
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #173 on: August 19, 2015, 07:51:43 am »
If I were going to buy it for myself on my personal usage, I will probably buy Brymen but if I were going to buy it for earning money, then it depends on the situation for buying Fluke or Brymen but it is easily to imagine I will be buying Fluke on many occasion.

The test equipment like handheld DMM are used for both as own usage (hobby, your own projects and etc) and for the purpose for earning revenue and this makes situation complex.

I like Brymen and derivative of Bryman such as Amprobe (it is Sanwa PC7000 in Japan) because the price is better for the specs and built quality, input protection, quality of LCD, speed of auto range, speed of update rate, speed of continuity test, quality of test leads and etc are reasonable (may not be the best but it is reasonable) and it makes me feel that Brymen knows what they need to do to make a good multimeter, compare to many other cheaply made ones.

But if I have to select a multimeter for earning income or for the company then it is really depends on the situation.

For example,
(*)If I am an OEM factory owner and in the position to find the manufacture who is seeking for a good factory, then I have to promote or demonstrate the goodness of my factory. If my factory was using like Fluke which is well known top brand multimeter or using Brymen, then the later will probably consume my effort for explaining extra.
(*)If my organization bought heavy industry equipment like power plant or military equipment made in US (which is the case in Japan), then the almost all the manuals for maintenances will be written based on using Fluke. Then the selection becomes whether to buy Fluke 83/87 or translate all the manuals for the Bryman.
(*)If I was working as an engineer in the large electronic company and most of the top management is not engineering background, then I have to consider when making evaluation reports which will be less hustle if the data will be measured by Fluke or Brymen.
(*)If I were employee as a service engineer to frequently visit customer’s sites to measure very expensive machineries, then I have to consider which will be easier to have better credibility from the customer if I were using Fluke or Brymen.
(*)If I were in a position for procure department for the company and wanted to secure my job for my life as much as possible, then which will have less blames if anything happens on the mulimeters between Fluke or Brymen.

There must be more examples, so there are many reasons for selecting Fluke does have good reasons.
If it was for my *own* use, I will pick Brymen and ask my friends the Fluke 87V for a present for me because it is just a nice superb mutimeter want to have it someday. :)
(Am I asking too much?) :)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 12:13:18 pm by fanOfeeDIY »
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #174 on: August 22, 2015, 12:26:35 am »
No problems at all with TME.  Meter arrived today, was very well packed and delivered in less than a week to the USA.   And shipping was only $10 US!    Thanks for the advice on TME!

No plans to do a review of it.  A few of us did a little shootout with it against some Mastechs, Extech, Fluke and the 8.5 digit Agilent.   Meter holds it own very well. 

I noticed that they seem very conservative on some of specs.  For example with a 10dBm 50 ohm signal applied, the 3dB point is around 390KHz.  I was thinking it would be around 100KHz from the manual.     Freq input appears to work to around 13MHz, was expecting a MHz.   One thing I like right away is it stores the settings.   If you select 50 ohm calculations, next time you measure dB, it's at 50 ohms.   Overall, I'm impressed with it. 

Picture of the meter connected to -40dBm 50 ohm source.  Notice the counter won't trigger at this low of a signal.   
« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 12:30:43 am by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #175 on: August 22, 2015, 01:02:01 am »
As a side note, I had contacted Greenlee about their warranty.   They responded with "lifetime".   I tried to get some details on what this meant but they would not respond.   For me the warranty was not a big deal but the price difference really made me question it.    TME did ship the meter with their own written warranty.  Again, no big deal for me.   

The two temperature probe with difference calc. is kick ass!       

Picture showing the meter reading a 2 uv signal off my reference.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online Nerull

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #176 on: August 22, 2015, 02:08:16 am »
Fluke really thinks about the every day adventures that the average electrician is confronted with :)

3 meters drop on concrete, 1 meter under water, Canyon trip, being frozen down to -15 degrees, 6 meters drop, 12 meters drop, 30 meters drop, being thrown from a car at 60 km/h.

Wow! Seems like Brymen didn't do their homework about every day adventures in the US :)

I worked at a company that made lifesaving medical devices costing thousands of dollars. These devices would come back to the service department with giant holes knocked through the cases. Some looked like they had been tied to the back of a car and driven for a few hundred miles. One came back with a bullet hole.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #177 on: August 22, 2015, 03:17:42 am »
@joeqsmith:

I am very glad you like the Brymen. Are you going to give a wallop from your test rig? I would be very surprised if it didn't survive.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #178 on: August 22, 2015, 03:43:21 am »
I worked at a company that made lifesaving medical devices costing thousands of dollars.

Body armor vests ?

 ::)
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #179 on: August 22, 2015, 02:46:30 pm »
@joeqsmith:

I am very glad you like the Brymen. Are you going to give a wallop from your test rig? I would be very surprised if it didn't survive.

Broke my $50 rule, but actually a nice meter.  Came sealed, I assume for warranty.  I opened it up anyhow and the videos don't do it justice.  The design looks good.   Imagine you don't have to pull out the circuit board to change a fuse like the 87V.   It does AC+DC like the 289.   It can measure two temperatures like the Fluke???    Looks more robust than the 87V I damaged and the document mentions the 12KV 50us surge.     I think you could be right.  It may pass the same test I put the 101 through but that pulse is higher voltage and double the width.     

If TechnologyCatalyst decides to run the meters he reviewed, I plan to run it along with them.   If I had another 87V, I would toss it in there as well as I plan to make a new generator that will allow me to automate some of the testing.    The output will be programmable so I can go back and repeat a test.    Because of this we were unable to see how the Fluke 87V and the UNI-T 139 really compared with the other meters, only that they were not as robust as what I was testing to at the time.      Here's his channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYVMnw_W7-Rq-yJk80vprug/videos
 
Shorting the inputs, I measure 45dBm.  So I was pretty close to the limit.   I have attached some resistance measurements with it.   My home made high voltage probe is 200 Meg made with 1% 10W MOX parts.   This is outside the range of the resistance range, so the picture shows conductance (1/Gohm) or 1/0.2G or 5.0nS.   If interested, the probe can be seen here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/teledyne-lecroy-waverunner-64xi/75/

Really not seeing a down side to the meter yet but it's only been a day.     
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #180 on: August 23, 2015, 05:34:23 pm »
Used the meter all of yesterday.  There are a lot of features in each setting of the dial.  It can take a few button presses to get what you want.   This would normally be something that would bother me but with them storing the settings, it really enhances the meter.   It's almost like you can customize how you use the meter.    I really like the interface.   

So what's the downside IMO?

Hold, what's the point?   Rec works good.  I like that you can scroll through the settings.  It's not the fastest.  Using a 10Vp-p 1Hz pulse with a 30% DC (300ms) is not long enough to get the meter to detect the peak.  However, then there is Crest!  They spec it at 1ms but my meter can detect the peak on a 840us pulse.   Down side, you can't see what the input signal is doing.  The second display and bar graph won't help.  All you can do it turn off Crest and loose your data.  Why it does not scroll like Rec to see the input, I assume is because it is so fast.   Then again, I do own a scope.   I attached a picture of it in Crest mode. 

nS, Ok, so I like it can read the resistance of my high voltage probe accurately.   My old HP34401A can't even do this.   But, IMO it's like having a meter than can't do AC+DC.   Yea, you can carry a calculator to do the math but why would you?  Just give me the option to show the resistance.   

Where's the second temperature probe?  However, I am not a fan of these molded things anyway.   The nice thing is the adapters for the standard K type from Extech appear to work fine with it. 

I don't care for the probes.   Their quality looks good.  Gold plated.   They are just dull.   Not a big deal as I normally would use my own. 

I checked the continuity function against my other handhelds.  Data is attached.   I did go ahead an measure the pulse width until it stopped clicking. 

Like others have mentioned, would be nice to have a cover for the fuses but really, sure beats having to pull the circuit board out like the 87V. 

How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Robomeds

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #181 on: August 23, 2015, 06:14:28 pm »
Yeah, Fluke's touch hold function is one I really like and use frequently.  I seem to recall the hold function on the Brymen based meters I've tried wasn't very good.  It's not a huge thing but it would bother me. 
 

Offline jancelot

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #182 on: August 23, 2015, 06:29:35 pm »
Basically Fluke is very cheap in the U.S. and Brymen expensive. On europe for example is just the opposite.

Fluke 87-V: $501.23 (europe)
Brymen BM869s: $226.49 (europe)

Somebody post the prices in the U.S. please.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 06:32:05 pm by jancelot »
 

Offline Redeeman

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #183 on: August 23, 2015, 11:20:23 pm »
would be interesting to see brymen vs fluke 101 in your test :)
 

Online Nerull

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #184 on: August 24, 2015, 01:37:57 am »
I worked at a company that made lifesaving medical devices costing thousands of dollars.

Body armor vests ?

 ::)

Lets just say their use was often accompanied by a shout of "Clear!", at least on TV...
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #185 on: August 24, 2015, 04:48:41 am »
Basically Fluke is very cheap in the U.S. and Brymen expensive. On europe for example is just the opposite.

Fluke 87-V: $501.23 (europe)
Brymen BM869s: $226.49 (europe)

Somebody post the prices in the U.S. please.
Fluke 87V: $404.99 shipped (US)

The Brymen BM869s isn't officially sold with a Brymen label in the US, so it's either:
  • Order from Europe ($226.49 + shipping)
  • Get an overpriced rebadged unit, such as the Greenlee DM-860a ($356.87 shipped).
 

Offline 5ky

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #186 on: August 24, 2015, 05:35:22 am »
Basically Fluke is very cheap in the U.S. and Brymen expensive. On europe for example is just the opposite.

Fluke 87-V: $501.23 (europe)
Brymen BM869s: $226.49 (europe)

Somebody post the prices in the U.S. please.
Fluke 87V: $404.99 shipped (US)

The Brymen BM869s isn't officially sold with a Brymen label in the US, so it's either:
  • Order from Europe ($226.49 + shipping)
  • Get an overpriced rebadged unit, such as the Greenlee DM-860a ($356.87 shipped).

Holy cow they went up in price.  I paid $314 for mine a few years ago from amazon

EDIT: that was a little vague--I meant that I paid $314 for my 87V when I got it a few years ago
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #187 on: August 24, 2015, 12:04:50 pm »
would be interesting to see brymen vs fluke 101 in your test :)

I have no problems running the 101 again.  It has never been apart and is still sealed.   

I did some comparisons between it and two other Flukes against the Brymen that you may find of interest.    After owning the Brymen for a few days, I like it more than my Ex-tech which is about the same cost (if you consider the cost of the Brymen's serial interface).   

Enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-4L2JarVxA&feature=youtu.be
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #188 on: August 24, 2015, 06:31:57 pm »
That was an interesting take on doing a comparison. You did test I would not have thought of doing. I look forward to seeing the BM869s take the hit from your new rig, or old!
 

Offline TheBay

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #189 on: August 24, 2015, 09:50:51 pm »
Where can I get a BM869 or BM867, or even a rebadged version in the UK. I've been using a Fluke 77 Series II for years. I think I need an upgrade :)
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #190 on: August 24, 2015, 10:21:07 pm »
I know you are asking for something in the UK, but as Poland ships to the UK and their prices are really good I suggest you just get it from TME:
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #191 on: August 25, 2015, 12:53:09 am »
That was an interesting take on doing a comparison. You did test I would not have thought of doing. I look forward to seeing the BM869s take the hit from your new rig, or old!

Did you want to just measure some resistors and voltages and call it good?   Or just see if it spins on the table when I attempt to turn the dial?   :-DD    I figured I would show some of the modes that are normally overlooked.   To be fair to the 87V,  it was brought to my attention that is does have a crest feature that I was not aware of.   Looking at the manual, it should have easily detected a shorter pulse than the Brymen. 

I have started to look at the design of a new generator.  If I build it, I'm planning to stay in that max 20Jish range.   Just enough to stress the protection circuits.    You were going to design your own.  How is that coming along?     I would be interested in seeing your open and shorted output waveforms.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #192 on: August 25, 2015, 12:56:09 am »
Oh, that pulse tester is in the future, if I can get to it. I have some other things to get done first.
 

Offline Armxnian

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #193 on: August 25, 2015, 01:04:57 am »
Nice video Joe. What frequency did you use for the pulse width test?
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #194 on: August 25, 2015, 01:41:16 am »
Nice video Joe. What frequency did you use for the pulse width test?

Glad you enjoyed it.  When I ran the min/max, crest test I was using 2Hz with a 2ms pulse.   The 87V should work to 250us according to the manual for a repeating waveform  but I am not sure if they gave a maximum period.   800us was about the limit of my Brymen.   Both very impressive IMO for a hand held meters.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online Wytnucls

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #195 on: August 25, 2015, 01:49:52 am »
The 'cheap' UNI-T 71D can detect a repetitive 10uS peak.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #196 on: August 25, 2015, 02:27:04 am »
The 'cheap' UNI-T 71D can detect a repetitive 10uS peak.

I tried to find this in the manual but the only time they mention is the update rate.     :-//   Will it give you both the min and max with this pulse width?
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online Wytnucls

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #197 on: August 25, 2015, 03:22:19 am »
I can't remember where I found the Peak Hold details. Supposed to be 10uS minimum, with an accuracy of 1.2% of range + 25 digits.

Edit: Found the info again: Cyrustek ES51966 datasheet: (Taiwan patent 476418)



Here is the test to confirm it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uni-t-ut71d-review/30/

« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 09:09:05 am by Wytnucls »
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #198 on: August 25, 2015, 04:11:03 am »
Damn impressive!   Tried 40us at 50Hz, 3V peak.    With your UNI-T, you almost don't need a scope.

How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline naughtilus

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #199 on: August 25, 2015, 04:20:25 am »
When I google up Fluke, I get photos like this one with the 87 IV:



 :-+

When I google up Brymen, I get photos of Kiriakos testing temperature of his kettle with the BM869:



 :palm:
...or is it?
 

Offline 5ky

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #200 on: August 25, 2015, 05:19:55 am »
When I google up Fluke, I get photos like this one with the 87 IV:

 :-+

When I google up Brymen, I get photos of Kiriakos testing temperature of his kettle with the BM869:

 :palm:

never underestimate the importance of perfect tea steeping temperature  :-DD
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #201 on: August 25, 2015, 05:25:03 am »
When I google up Fluke, I get photos like this one with the 87 IV:

 :-+

When I google up Brymen, I get photos of Kiriakos testing temperature of his kettle with the BM869:

 :palm:

never underestimate the importance of perfect tea steeping temperature  :-DD

I guarantee the tea testing is more enjoyable.
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #202 on: August 25, 2015, 06:17:09 am »
Brymen may not have taken such photos, but at least one of their ODM customers has.  ;)

Greenlee DM-860a  >:D

 

Offline TheBay

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #203 on: August 25, 2015, 07:42:04 am »
Glad someone else appreciates the science behind making a cup of tea :), When I go to the states I have a hard time getting a good cuppa :)

When I google up Fluke, I get photos like this one with the 87 IV:

 :-+

When I google up Brymen, I get photos of Kiriakos testing temperature of his kettle with the BM869:

 :palm:

never underestimate the importance of perfect tea steeping temperature  :-DD
 

Offline naughtilus

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #204 on: August 25, 2015, 08:25:20 am »
If Starbucks buys a BM869 for each of their shops around the world, Brymen will easily buy Danaher Corporation.
...or is it?
 

Offline TheBay

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #205 on: August 25, 2015, 09:07:08 am »
Missed this, thanks for the link.
Are these prices subject to VAT on top or any other charges?

I know you are asking for something in the UK, but as Poland ships to the UK and their prices are really good I suggest you just get it from TME:
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/
 

Online Wytnucls

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #206 on: August 25, 2015, 09:19:15 am »
I suspect you have to pay VAT (unless you have a business) and postage charges:
They don't have stock, so the price could also change later.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 09:21:56 am by Wytnucls »
 

Offline TheBay

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #207 on: August 25, 2015, 09:45:58 am »
Thanks for finding that,

So it works out about £174inc VAT + Shipping £6.84 = £180.84 As a comparison works out $284.36 USD $395.24 Aus


I suspect you have to pay VAT (unless you have a business) and postage charges:
They don't have stock, so the price could also change later.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #208 on: August 25, 2015, 12:15:03 pm »
I wonder how the meters would handle radiated susceptibility.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #209 on: August 28, 2015, 11:44:41 am »
After a viewer had pointed out that the Fluke 87V had a peak hold feature,  I put together another video showing how it compares with the Brymen crest feature.   I thought I would also throw the EXTECH EX540 in the mix too.   




How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline TheBay

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #210 on: August 28, 2015, 12:18:25 pm »
Great video  :-+

After a viewer had pointed out that the Fluke 87V had a peak hold feature,  I put together another video showing how it compares with the Brymen crest feature.   I thought I would also throw the EXTECH EX540 in the mix too.   


 

Offline saturation

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #211 on: August 28, 2015, 05:00:52 pm »
Good question.  In the archives of eevblog, the 87V went berzerk with GSM phones placed near the LCD, but a board revision fixed this but not sure it was a violation since the source had to be very close to the LCD to cause interference. 

True "CE" declaration also includes EMC compatibility.

https://www.adafruit.com/images/product-files/2610/EMCCertificate_of_Conformity.pdf

http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/101_____1aeng0000.pdf

Great video, as always.

I wonder how the meters would handle radiated susceptibility.   
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #212 on: October 09, 2015, 11:49:41 pm »
I am nearing the end of this little experiment and I hope to have at least one data point that show if the Brymen BM-869S I purchased can survive a transient that the Fluke 87V was damaged with.   

This thread should provide some good background if anyone new is just starting to follow along.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #213 on: November 29, 2015, 03:31:27 pm »
Why does the Brymen BM869s have 2 DC volt measurement options on the main rotary switch?
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #214 on: November 29, 2015, 03:59:33 pm »
One selection is for volts, the other for milivolts. This is to switch in different dividers for these ranges to allow better accuracy. Each of these positions are for AC + DC also. If you look, AC also has two positions for the same reasons.
 

Offline pxl

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #215 on: February 26, 2016, 09:07:52 pm »
Hi, I've just recently purchased a Brymen 867, please let me share few findings:

- the switch is very stiff. Sometimes I have a feeling that something will break apart if I force to turn it to the next position. I will fix it later, because it is hardy usable in this condition
- one of the connectors was decentered to that extent that is was almost impossible to plug the lead in. I fixed it with resoldering. It is okay now, but....
- the beeper is way too loud and it is impossible to switch it off permanently: it beeps as no future with every button press. I found that there is a "390K" labelled power resistor next to the spring of the beeper (0.5W maybe), which is about 3 ohm. I will replace that, hope that will help.
- the device is pretty hefty. I mean, ridiculously large. Not a big deal, though.

Apart from these, no other problems so far.
 

Offline _Wim_

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #216 on: February 27, 2016, 07:19:46 am »
Hi, I've just recently purchased a Brymen 867, please let me share few findings:

- the switch is very stiff. Sometimes I have a feeling that something will break apart if I force to turn it to the next position. I will fix it later, because it is hardy usable in this condition
- one of the connectors was decentered to that extent that is was almost impossible to plug the lead in. I fixed it with resoldering. It is okay now, but....
- the beeper is way too loud and it is impossible to switch it off permanently: it beeps as no future with every button press. I found that there is a "390K" labelled power resistor next to the spring of the beeper (0.5W maybe), which is about 3 ohm. I will replace that, hope that will help.
- the device is pretty hefty. I mean, ridiculously large. Not a big deal, though.

Apart from these, no other problems so far.

- you can turn the beeper off by pressing the range button when swithing the meter on. The setting is however not remembered, its only for the current measurement session. But if you make ik a habbit of pressing the range swith when turning on the meter, it is ok :-)
 

Online Fungus

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #217 on: February 27, 2016, 12:44:16 pm »
- you can turn the beeper off by pressing the range button when swithing the meter on. The setting is however not remembered, its only for the current measurement session. But if you make ik a habbit of pressing the range swith when turning on the meter, it is ok :-)

It that's true then I'd be looking at a way to short out the range button during power-up (or only connect the buzzer when the meter is in continuity mode).

Even better: Send the meter back...   :palm:

 

Online Wytnucls

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #218 on: February 27, 2016, 01:58:30 pm »
Most meters have a high impedance on low DC volt and mV ranges (2.5GOhm) to prevent loading low voltage high impedance circuits. Could someone confirm that the Brymen 869 has the same feature? All I can find is 10MOhm on those ranges (Brymen site).
The docs are probably wrong, as, surely, Brymen owners would have complained about it by now.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 10:14:12 am by Wytnucls »
 

Offline markone

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #219 on: February 27, 2016, 03:24:44 pm »
Most meters have a high impedance on low DC volt and mV ranges (2.5GOhm) to prevent loading low voltage circuits. Could someone confirm that the Brymen 869 has the same feature? All I can find is 10MOhm on those ranges (Brymen site).
The docs are probably wrong, as Brymen owners would have complained about it by now.

It's actually 10Mohm for all ranges as written in docs, verified on mine 896S right now.

I was aware about that before purchase, so i do not complian.

Fluke's 87V standard voltage reading loads 10Mohm as well, the "high impedance mode" is only for 500mV range and is  unspecified for both actual impedance and precision (and has to be engaged with a key press on DMM's turn-on).

My meter's rotary switch is on the stiff side but still acceptable, no problem with beep sound level and instrument size, both are comfortable to me (and yes, my hearing is good).

I often use the double temperature reading function with differential readout, a neat feature not found in most competitor devices.

I found AC TrueRMS voltage reading very accurate in audio freq. range as well as DC current accuracy and resolution on both 10A and 0.6A ranges.

What i dislike is the LCD backlight, quite uneven on left side, plus the PC cable interface that miss standard USB COM profile adopting a bugged HID interface mode (it fails when you attempt ot import it under NI-VISA standard HID driver profile) and a ridiculous way to transmit the DMM readings (display's segments bit mapping :palm:), that translates into a huge PITA when you have to write your own logger application.

But considering Fluke's ripp-off EU street's prices (official distributors please, not buy&die ebay sellers), i'm happy to have spent 230E (VAT included) for this one.
 

Online Wytnucls

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #220 on: February 27, 2016, 04:10:04 pm »
Actually, the high impedance on mV ranges is not as common as I thought.
Confirmed meters with an impedance over 1GOhm are Gossen 30M, Hioki 4282, Chauvin Arnoux MTX 3293, Protek 608, UNI-T UT71 (2.5GOhm mV range) and UNI-T UT61 (>3GOhm mV ranges).
A few others go up to 100MOhm on mV ranges.
Bench meters often have an option for a >10GOhm impedance, when required, like the Rigol 3058 or Keithley 2000 (permanent on 10V and below ranges)

I don't know about the alleged high impedance mode on the Fluke 87V. I can only find a selectable low impedance feature. Normal mode is 10MOhm.

From the 87V manual:
When measuring voltage, the Meter acts approximately
like a 10 MOhm (10,000,000 Ohm) impedance in parallel with
the circuit. This loading effect can cause measurement
errors in high-impedance circuits. In most cases, the error
is negligible (0.1% or less) if the circuit impedance is
10 KOhm (10,000 Ohm) or less.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 10:29:31 am by Wytnucls »
 

Offline markone

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #221 on: February 27, 2016, 04:43:35 pm »
I don't know about the alleged high impedance mode on the Fluke 87V. I can only find a selectable low impedance feature. Normal mode is 10MOhm.

From the 87V manual:
When measuring voltage, the Meter acts approximately
like a 10 MOhm (10,000,000 Ohm) impedance in parallel with
the circuit. This loading effect can cause measurement
errors in high-impedance circuits. In most cases, the error
is negligible (0.1% or less) if the circuit impedance is
10 KOhm (10,000 Ohm) or less.

From the user manual :

 

Online Wytnucls

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #222 on: February 27, 2016, 04:54:07 pm »
Gee, they really buried that one! Grazie. Would be nice to know what the impedance increase is. Anybody measured it?
The Fluke 185 has the same feature.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 06:14:20 pm by Wytnucls »
 

Offline mos6502

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #223 on: February 27, 2016, 07:23:10 pm »
Gee, they really buried that one! Grazie. Would be nice to know what the impedance increase is. Anybody measured it?
The Fluke 185 has the same feature.

Just tried it. Using my DE-5000 LCR meter I measure around 10.000 megohms in normal mode and over limit with the Fluke in Hi-Z mode ... so that would be over 200 megohms?  :wtf:

That is with the DE-5000 in DCR mode. Using the AC measurement mode, I get from 1.05 megohms at 100 Hz to 2.1 kiloohms at 100kHz (the 87V still being in Hi-Z mode).
for(;;);
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #224 on: February 27, 2016, 07:41:32 pm »
Why would you bother to measure the impedance of a DE-5000? It is not a passive device. It is a pointless and meaningless measurement.
 

Offline mos6502

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #225 on: February 27, 2016, 07:47:01 pm »
Why would you bother to measure the impedance of a DE-5000? It is not a passive device. It is a pointless and meaningless measurement.

Huh? I used the DE-5000 to measure the impedance of the 87V's millivolt range.

Of course the DCR measurement is the most relevant. But the ESR at varying frequencies could be interesting to know ... maybe.
for(;;);
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #226 on: February 27, 2016, 07:53:58 pm »
Sorry, misread the post!  |O
 

Online Wytnucls

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #227 on: February 27, 2016, 07:54:57 pm »
An insulation meter is needed to measure it properly. Something like a Gossen 27I which can measure up to 3GOhm at 500V. The Fluke's impedance should be around 1GOhm or higher.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 07:57:53 pm by Wytnucls »
 

Offline mos6502

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #228 on: February 27, 2016, 08:08:49 pm »
Sorry, misread the post!  |O

No worries  :)

An insulation meter is needed to measure it properly. Something like a Gossen 27I which can measure up to 3GOhm at 500V. The Fluke's impedance should be around 1GOhm or higher.

1 Gohm? That's insane. What are the practical applications for this?

EDIT: Found this:

"Yes, normal meters have a 10Mohm resistor on the input. One ones with "HI-Z"
mode remove this resistor and rely just on the input impedance of the FET
gate and other circuitry which is there. This value varies a *lot* which is
why they typically don't specify it, they just call it "high impedance"
mode. E.g. Fluke do not specify the value on their 87 meter, not even a
minimum (BTW, hold the Hz button when you power-up to get this mode).

When you need this mode, the input impedance can never be high enough! e.g.
when measuring very high impedance circuitry (you can buy Gohm range
resistors for example). Actually, even "normal impedance" stuff causes a
problem with a 10Mohm input. e.g. you can start seeing errors creep in
measuring say >10Kohm stuff.

The cheap Protek 506 & 608 are other meters that have this (not selectable)
on the mV range. They spec it at simply >1Gohm."

http://www.electronicspoint.com/threads/re-freaky-amazing-dmm.151941/

Man, that David L. Jones guy knows his stuff. He should join this forum.
for(;;);
 

Offline markone

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #229 on: February 27, 2016, 09:11:38 pm »

The cheap Protek 506 & 608 are other meters that have this (not selectable)
on the mV range. They spec it at simply >1Gohm."

http://www.electronicspoint.com/threads/re-freaky-amazing-dmm.151941/

Man, that David L. Jones guy knows his stuff. He should join this forum.

Well, not exactly cheap, when available (now discontinued) they were in the 160-350USD price range, but i really wonder about their actual accuracy.

For what is worth, i too used DE-5000 in DCR mode to measure BM869S's 500mV range input impedance reading 9.996 Mohm, while the cr@ppy  V&A VA38 DMM says 10.000 Mohm.

If i will have to take low voltage meas on high impedance circuital points i can always take in account 10MEG load value to make some compensation math, but it's not my usual work, otherwise I would have gone for a different instrument.
 

Online Wytnucls

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #230 on: February 27, 2016, 09:13:41 pm »
Dave should know what he is talking about. Keithley gives the impedance as more than 10GOhm on their datasheet for the 2000.
 

Online Wytnucls

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #231 on: February 28, 2016, 10:08:13 am »
 

Offline markone

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #232 on: February 28, 2016, 03:15:52 pm »


OK, but .. what's the point in showing this video here ?

Maybe :

- the 5 times pricier Keysight 34461A is a better instrument ?
- the ohm's law applies with DMM's voltage input impedance ?
- 1 Gohm input impedance meter is better than 10 Mohm one when probing sensitive circuit ?

Anwers are quite obvious for most of us without additional help ;D

The 869S voltage input impedance is spot-on official specification number so i do not see any reason to complain about that.

Much higher input impedance is not always the best choice depending on electrical enviroment noise level, so if present it must be a switchable feature.

It's clear that for frequent high precision voltage meas on sensitive circuital points a different instrument class is needed together a real, expensive calibration service plan (wihout it all those small numbers mean nothing).

If it happens occasionally and it's not a critical task i can also use my BRYMEN and keep in account the applied 10MEG load.

With EU street pricing (180E plus VAT) the BM869S seems an excellent hand held DMM, pushing the budget to 500E or 1000E will change completely the game.
 

Online Wytnucls

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #233 on: February 28, 2016, 03:46:10 pm »
Obviously, that has eluded you, but mos6502 was wondering what such a feature was for.
Needs to be switchable? Tell that to Keithley; on their K2000, it is permanent on 10V range and below. Also on the K2002 (100GOhm!).
No expensive calibration is needed for fairly accurate voltage measurements, compared to a meter with no high impedance function, as Dave demonstrated.
Of course, this is not a critical feature for most people, but this thread is about differences between the Fluke 87V and the Brymen 869.
I certainly was surprised to find out the flagship 869 doesn't have a high Z function, when the lowly UT61 has it.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 06:47:15 am by Wytnucls »
 

Offline markone

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #234 on: February 28, 2016, 04:36:00 pm »
Of course, this is not a critical feature for most people, but this thread is about differences between the Fluke 87V and the Brymen 869.
I certainly was surprised to find out the flagship 869 doesn't have a high Z function, when the lowly UT61 has it.

Forgetting for a moment the PC interface feature lack, the only problem with Fluke 87V here in EU is clearly the high price, with that kind of budget i would start to consider a bench DMM.

Anyway i think that Youtube Martin Lorton's videos cover fairly well every aspect of this debate.
 

Online Wytnucls

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #235 on: February 28, 2016, 05:02:58 pm »
The question was why people would buy Fluke, even if it is more expensive. A high impedance mode may swing the decision for some buyers.
There are plenty of videos on the internet. It doesn't preclude a discussion on this site, answering the poster's questions.
 

Offline markone

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #236 on: February 28, 2016, 06:04:24 pm »
The question was why people would buy Fluke, even if it is more expensive. A high impedance mode may swing the decision for some buyers.
There are plenty of videos on the internet. It doesn't preclude a discussion on this site, answering the poster's questions.

Sure, i agree.

What i meant is that Martin's videos, with actual side by side comparison tests with agilent and fluke DMMs, could be useful for the purpose but of course not substitutive to this discussion.

About the high impedance mode, if actually limited to 500mV range for the 87V as i can understand, imho is not going to be a so strong key point in the decisional process, a much higher voltage covering would be required to become that, at least for myself.

I'm quite sure that for companies the main answer to the OP's question is that "the employer pay the bill", while for hobbiest things vary a lot depending where one lives, here in EU the 87V is more than twice pricier than BM869S and nearby some decent bench DMMs, while in this regard US customers have a complete different offering.

My answer is : the 87V has a better construction quality and Fluke has a better reputation, if priced within 300E VAT included  (new from authorized dealer) it could have been my choice, but @ 500E i should find a very specific reason against the BRYMEN.

Prices from buy & die ebay sellers are meaningless to me, at least with this kind of goods.
 

Offline mos6502

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #237 on: February 28, 2016, 07:10:02 pm »
The killer features of the 87V:

- 250us peak min/max. It's hard to convey in words how awesome this feature is. This means the meter can replace an oscilloscope in many scenarios.
- 8V diode test. 'Nuff said. No other meter does this.
- No backlight timer. Once you turn it on, it stays on. This shows a deeper philosophy. The Fluke engineers assume that the users are people who know what they're doing, not senile old women.

Also:

for(;;);
 

Online tooki

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #238 on: February 28, 2016, 10:18:30 pm »
Even if we leave Brymen aside, I'd still go for Agilent instead of a Fluke. They're cheaper and I have more trust in Agilent designs.
That's a bold statement.
Not saying that's a fact, that's my personal opinion, based on the fact that Agilent has a lot more experience in test and measurement. They've done so much it's silly to compare the two.
I'm surprised nobody disputed this absurd statement.

Here's the actual facts: HP was founded in 1939, and Fluke in 1949. I hardly think that 10 years constitutes "a lot more" experience when we're talking about companies both around 70 years old, both of which were test and measurement companies from the start. Both of them make outstanding gear, they've just ended up specializing in different areas over the years.

And let's not forget that the Agilent/Keysight handheld meters of today are not based on proven, old HP designs, they're the ones from Agilent's 2008 purchase of Escort, a Taiwanese maker of low-cost (but not bargain basement) meters. I assume that all the R&D of Keysight's handheld meters is still in Taiwan, though this is pure speculation on my part.

I think it's fair to say that Fluke has far more experience in making rugged handheld DMMs than today's Keysight. (Weren't there times when HP wasn't making handheld DMMs at all?)


As for why I personally bought a Fluke 87V a year ago, when my 20 year old Radio Shack meter died: I'd been lusting for a Fluke ever since I was a little kid, having seen the ads and reviews of them in Popular Electronics. Do I need a Fluke? Hell no. But I wanted it! :D
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 10:50:28 pm by tooki »
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #239 on: February 28, 2016, 11:39:08 pm »
Weren't there times when HP wasn't making handheld DMMs at all?
It would seem it took the 2008 acquisition of Escort by Agilent before they ever got into the handheld DMM business, as such a product isn't mentioned on either HP's or Keysight's product timeline or company history.
 

Offline markone

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #240 on: February 29, 2016, 12:34:06 am »
- 250us peak min/max. It's hard to convey in words how awesome this feature is. This means the meter can replace an oscilloscope in many scenarios.

Never a meter can replace an oscilloscope and vice versa, i unlikely would trust a multimeter for this type of measure, too many variables can distort the result.

- 8V diode test. 'Nuff said. No other meter does this.

It's a function mainly wanted by power led tinkerers for Vf binning, normally they search this for cheap, probably a small case number so most brands do not matter to implement that.
 

- No backlight timer. Once you turn it on, it stays on. This shows a deeper philosophy. The Fluke engineers assume that the users are people who know what they're doing, not senile old women.

I agree, but the definitive solution is to have both possibilities by mean of separate UI actions.

About Hi Res digit rounding, sure it's not a deal breaker, to stop the moan it's enough to leave it in hi-res mode, that works a treat for tendency monitoring like Martin shows in many other videos like




So not a defect but a killer app for BRYMEN.

The Fluke main lacks are :

- no double display
- no pc connection
- no nice price (at least in EU)

 

Offline mos6502

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #241 on: February 29, 2016, 01:57:41 am »
- 250us peak min/max. It's hard to convey in words how awesome this feature is. This means the meter can replace an oscilloscope in many scenarios.

Never a meter can replace an oscilloscope and vice versa, i unlikely would trust a multimeter for this type of measure, too many variables can distort the result.

Except the specs are absolutely clear on what that mode does and what the accuracy is. There are no random variables like with certain Asian meters. It's not a useless gimmick like on the Brymen.  ;)

Let's say you want to plug your expensive Gizmo into an unknown power supply. You know the supply delivers the correct voltage, but what happens at turn-on? Does the voltage overshoot? You hook up your Fluke 87, switch to peak min/max and turn the supply on. The Fluke records any spikes and within 2 seconds you know whether the power supply is safe to use or not.

Another example: your PC is randomly crashing every 2 or 3 hours. You suspect the power supply. You hook your Fluke 87 to the 12V rails and switch to peak min/max and let it sit. After 2 hours you hear a beep from the Fluke and the computer reboots! You check the min/max readings and find the supply had dropped to 9 volts. The beep happened at the exact same time that you launched a CPU and graphics hungry game, so you know the PSU couldn't deliver the increased load, confirming the defect.

Or you want to know if your car battery is still good. You hook the Fluke 87 up to the battery and switch to peak min/max. You start the car and read the values. The battery voltage only dropped to 11 volts while cranking, so the battery is fine.

In all of these cases, you would have had to use a scope if it wasn't for the Fluke 87.

- 8V diode test. 'Nuff said. No other meter does this.

It's a function mainly wanted by power led tinkerers for Vf binning, normally they search this for cheap, probably a small case number so most brands do not matter to implement that.

You know what happens when you assume?
 

- No backlight timer. Once you turn it on, it stays on. This shows a deeper philosophy. The Fluke engineers assume that the users are people who know what they're doing, not senile old women.

I agree, but the definitive solution is to have both possibilities by mean of separate UI actions.

About Hi Res digit rounding, sure it's not a deal breaker, to stop the moan it's enough to leave it in hi-res mode, that works a treat for tendency monitoring like Martin shows in many other videos like

No, it clearly shows the engineers didn't think the design through. Either that, or they just didn't gave a shit. Wait, maybe that's the reason they design a backlight that makes an annoying high pitched sound. How can you rely on a meter that does weird, unexpected things?





So not a defect but a killer app for BRYMEN.

The Fluke main lacks are :

- no double display
- no pc connection
- no nice price (at least in EU)

Double display? What for? It's not displaying anything useful, like voltage and current at the same time. PC connection - again, what for? Data logging? There are meters for that, like the Fluke 289. But they suck as general use meters.

And the price? Well, you gotta pay to play.

EDIT: Oh, and let's not forget the 4 times longer battery life of the 87V vs. the Brymen BM869s.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 05:39:27 am by mos6502 »
for(;;);
 

Offline pxl

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #242 on: February 29, 2016, 06:24:21 am »
My answer is : the 87V has a better construction quality and Fluke has a better reputation, if priced within 300E VAT included  (new from authorized dealer) it could have been my choice, but @ 500E i should find a very specific reason against the BRYMEN.

Yes, that's it, the prices (at least in Europe) are not even comparable. For professional usage these could not be a problem, for a hobbyist, it would be the very last equipment to think about.

- No backlight timer. Once you turn it on, it stays on. This shows a deeper philosophy. The Fluke engineers assume that the users are people who know what they're doing, not senile old women.

Well, probably we could hack the Brymen to disable this timer :)
 

Online tooki

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #243 on: February 29, 2016, 12:02:08 pm »